Pod Save America - “Baby, you’re a firework.” (Fourth of July holiday pod!)

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

In a special Fourth of July holiday episode, Tommy and Jon L. take a hard look at some of the widely accepted narratives that shape American politics and culture, and Ira Madison III and Jason Concepcion join the pod for a debate about our most patriotic music. Then, Men in Blazers host and author Roger Bennett talks to Tommy about his memoir, “Reborn in the USA: An Englishman's Love Letter to His Chosen Home.” For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Jon Lovett. Jon Favreau is still vacationing down at Mar-a-Lago, spending some much-deserved time with Twitter. So Lovett and I are holding down the fork today for an extra fun July 4th-themed show. Lovett, do you have any fireworks ready for us today? No, the LAPD took all my fireworks. The LAPD took all my fireworks, and they were like, it's fine, we know what to do. Anyway, it was a mess.

Well, listen, the show will hopefully not be a mess. For those who don't have local LA news, they really, LAPD blew up a truck in its part of town. But anyway, sorry. I didn't even know that. Oh, no. That's exciting. Okay. It was a real mess. Okay. Well, that sounds like a mess then. We are going to talk about narratives in politics and beyond. And you might be asking why narratives? Because narratives, that's what July 4th is all about, right? We are told a story about America, stretches from 1776 to today. And there's an important discussion to be had about what's real, what's not, what's good, what could be a blind

spot for us as Americans. And we're also going to pick apart some other common media narratives and politics in our culture that sometimes are good, sometimes drive us crazy. We're going to have a little fun with it. Then we are going to be joined by Jason Concepcion, the co-host of Take Line and All Caps NBA, and Ira Madison III, the co-host of Keep It for a very special conversation about the most patriotic songs. And then finally, you're going to hear my interview with Roger Bennett. He's the co-host of a fantastic sports and soccer podcast called Men in Blazers. And we're going to talk about his new book, Reborn in the USA. Roger became a US citizen in 2018 after falling in love with America decades ago as a kid growing up in Liverpool, England. And we'll talk about American culture and the power

of the American story and probably some sports. And it will be a lot of fun. And I think you will love hearing from him. But love it. Let's start with this narrative that defines July 4th and defines this episode, which is American exceptionalism. What's your take? Good, bad? It's complicated. So here's what I want to say about American exceptionalism. And it is this. Anyone who believes that America is the best country in the world cannot also believe in American exceptionalism. American exceptionalism is a pejorative to describe people who believe that America is the best country in the world despite evidence. And so when someone says, oh, they don't even believe in American exceptionalism, it's really fucking confusing to me because presumably someone who says, I think America is the fucking best,

one of which is me. I'm one of those people. And it's not because I believe or you believe, the person who says that doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, they believe America is the best based on the facts, right? To say you believe in American exceptionalism is like a paradox. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you see how it doesn't really make sense? I hear what you're saying. I mean, I think, well, like just so listeners out love, it's constantly just popping into the office and being like America fucking best go to the bathroom. I mean, like, I think some know, Lovett's constantly just popping into the office and being like, America, fucking pest. Go to the bathroom. I mean, I think some of this is kind of definitional, right?

There are things about America that are exceptional. Until recently, I would have included our history of peaceful transfers of power. That got a little complicated on January 6th, right? Our constitution, our system of government is unique in that we have this capacity to amend it and fix it over time. I think the term American exceptionalism, it was first coined by Alexis de Tocqueville, right? But it's changed a ton over time. And I think we get into trouble when we get too high on our own supply. And we decide that it means like America is more just and more pure than anyone else. And like our way of life is just inherently better than everyone else's. And we're going to force it on you.

Like that to me is a real risk. Well, it's that, you know, Obama got dinged for saying Americans believe in American exceptionalism the same way Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism. And it was like he was like

two weeks of fucking stories about him not believing America is the best. But actually he was saying something different. American exceptionalism isn't something you can believe in the inside.

It's what people on the outside say about us and our myopic view about America being the center of every story. That said, I believe America is the center of every story. That's my position, which is why I reject American exceptionalism because America is the best. Do you see the problem? Do you see the issue? I like it. I like it. I also think like what I kind of like cringe at a little bit is the constant

like reflexive, this isn't who we are rhetoric. Whenever something terrible happens in the United States, which ignores the reality that a lot of the things we're talking about that are terrible in that moment have happened a lot, right? Slavery, Jim Crow. These are some of the recent conversations we had. And then there was this just ridiculous, idiotic 1776 commission report that the Trump folks leaked or released, sorry, right at the end of the administration that was literally just whitewashed, literally, U.S. history in an effort to push back on the 1619 project. And that, to me, is the ultimate, like, it's American like that to me is the ultimate like, American exceptionalism to me is good when it's aspirational.

And it's a story about America constantly trying to live up to an ideal. It's really bad when it's a cudgel that just silences criticism. And I think that's what like kind of the right wing version has become. Yeah, there's also, there's like another level to the racism that goes along with the fighting against teaching of our history in full.

Like, oh, and you know, you see this with people like Josh Hawley saying, like, I don't want to teach my, I don't want our kids to learn that America is racist. I want people to have hope in America. And implicit in that, you know, Sam Sanders and we talked about with Sam is that, you know, who is who is teaching for is teaching for for white kids. But it's also who is who does America belong to? And to not to not include the full scope of our history in our patriotism is to deny the American-ness of the people denied America's promise for hundreds of years. And like, it's their, it's, this was their country too. And their, this was their story too in full. And so like, anyway, end of thought, end of thought. No, that's, I agree with that. And that's why I do think it's more than symbolic that we are now celebrating and recognizing Juneteenth

and that we've made a lot of progress in this set of conversations. I have another narrative for you. Okay. That drives me a little bit crazy, which is that Washington used to be a bastion of civility, if we could only get back to that. And I would say, like, you know, look, you could start this narrative in a lot of places. Like, if you go

way back to the 1800s, a representative beat Charles Sumner with a metal-tipped cane on the Senate floor, I don't know that that's the civility we're looking for. The more modern iteration is Ronald Reagan, Tip O'Neill. They would have a scotch, talk like men, cut deals on social security reform. Why can't we get back to that? Woe is Washington, right? We miss those days. And the problem here is this is such rose-colored revisionist history. Yes, these guys cut a deal, but it wasn't because of friendship or civility. Love it. How civil is this quote to you? Quote, the evil is in the White House at the present time, and that evil is a man who has no care and no concern for the working class of America and the future generations of America and who likes to ride a horse. He's cold. He's mean. He's got ice water for blood. That's Tip O'Neill talking about Ronald Reagan. ice water for blood. That's Tip O'Neill talking about Ronald Reagan. I like that. I like that side of Tip O'Neill. You don't hear enough about it. Yeah, it's also like, you know, one of the great political deals ever made in Washington was between Northern Democrats and Southern Democrats to allow the South to be an authoritarian region so that FDR could become

president, you know. The Democrats could win elections, yeah. So some deals are really bad, I think. My view is that deals inherently aren't good or bad. It depends on the deal, I think. That's my view on deals. Honestly, this narrative, I really wrote this down. This narrative is the cousin of the sort of bipartisan policies are inherently better than partisan policies narrative,

which is just absurd when you think about like the Iraq war versus the Affordable Care Act. But yeah, I mean, the civility case, like it just ignores so many things. It ignores the way the parties have changed over time. It ignores the way gerrymandering has radicalized the House of Representatives and changed political incentives. And it also just ignores the reality that, yeah, okay, sure, like members of Congress used to be better friends. They were also more homogenous at that time. It was more white. It was more male. It was more Christian. It was a bunch of people from the same social class. So, like, I think we just need to be very careful for the sort of olden days that we're pining for. Because if you look under the hood, I'm not sure that they were quite that great. I don't really do very much pining as a rule, not a piner. I'll go. My next my narrative is moderate Democrats in swing districts taking more moderate stances are hurt by left wing members in left wing districts taking more left wing stances. This this came up soon after the election when there was some hand wringing about the fact that, yes, Joe Biden won, but the House majority shrunk, that Democrats weren't able to win a resounding victory in the

Senate, that we were ultimately later able to win the Georgia races, obviously. And this began with a fight between Conor Lamb and AOC that I don't think played out particularly helpfully, but I'm glad sort of has died down. And basically, you know, the crux of the issue is that it is, it seems very true that moderate Democrats or Democrats in swing districts are getting tagged by monikers like socialism or defund the police or Medicare for all or a host of other policies that are not helpful to them amongst the kind of suburban moderates that these more moderate members are trying to win. And so where do they point? They point to the people on the left of the party, both in Congress and outside of Congress, the activists who have made to fund the police or abolish ICE or Medicare for all or a host of other

left wing priorities, sort of they have kind of found very ingenious ways to frame these debates, simple, elegant, powerful messages that break through and have helped shift our debate, but then through Fox News and propaganda organs get tagged to all Democrats. And my issue here is, I think, you know, you know, John, Tommy and I, we talk about this all the time that like, I think one thing that you see on Twitter, but I think you see in a larger way is it's more fun to yell at people who respond to you. It's more fun to engage with people who see you, acknowledge you, care what you have to say, or perhaps in some way affected by your arguments. And so, you know,

it's a similar phenomenon of looking for your keys where the light is shining. But the reality is whether the left of the party takes a strong stance or not, Fox News, Tucker Carlson, Nielsen, right-wing radio, the Facebook right-wing organizations, they don't need a lot of help to find the activist, the random person, to saying something to the left that they're going to tag you with. And so don't hate the player, hate the game. The issue is that we have a massive right-wing operation that's taking every extreme or every left idea and trying to paint everybody with it. And we have to fight that, not each other, because there's always going to be a left of the party.

And they're always going to be trying to pull us to the left. That's a good thing. And so we got to find a way to fight the actual cause. The cause of the problem is not the left person saying something. It's the system that not the left person saying something. It's the system that takes that left person's words and applies it to everybody, even if it's not helpful in certain places. And I think we lose sight of that because it's easier to argue with people who argue back. That's a good one. That's a good one that I believe deeply. Here's one that's a little

tough to swallow for former White House communications aides, which is the bully pulpit. There is this belief, a narrative that the White House comes with a bully pulpit that is this huge rhetorical weapon that presidents could pull out at any time, and you can just use it as you want to move political opinion. Now, what folks need to know is there is no evidence that this is true. A bunch of political scientists have dug into the data. So Ronald Reagan was known as the great communicator. He saw support for programs he opposed, like regulations, healthcare spending, welfare, education, environmental protection. Support for those things went up during his presidency, and support for defense spending went down when he was championing it. Other researchers looked at FDR's fireside chats. They only increased his approval

by less than 1%. His big speeches on issues like entering the Second World War, they didn't move the electorate either. Bill Clinton visited 200 cities and towns before the 1994 midterms. God bless his staff. His numbers dropped. His health care bill failed. Republicans retook the House. Bush tried to sell Social Security privatization. Failed. Gallup looked at the impact of State of the Union addresses going back to 1978, and they found that they rarely affect the president's public standing in any meaningful way. So my take home here is that sometimes talking about stuff could just backfire. When a president talks about an issue, things that are nonpartisan

can become partisan the minute you champion it. So I think White Houses and activists need to think just as much about, do we want the president to not focus on this, to not talk about it and just work it behind the scenes and see if that's a more effective path to getting something done than to like make it the headline of the State of the Union? Yeah, I think there's two things. I think that's one, I think sometimes it's like, I think politics, really messaging generally, I think it's true for, you know, corporations trying to sell something. It's like being on a swing. You got to pump your legs at the right time and you got to be resonant with the wave.

You know, it doesn't help to pump your legs halfway down. You got to be right at the top or right at the back. And so I think sometimes it's about knowing the moment where you can kind of use the momentum of a conversation and move it a little bit further than it otherwise would have gone. Easier to make a fire worse than it is to start a fire. And the deeper part of this, too, is political news is about people. It's about individuals. It's about personalities.

about personalities, much harder to make systems, trends, institutions, the protagonist in the news just doesn't work. And so we end up talking about individuals and personalities when we need to be talking about like systems and structures. I think that's right. Yeah. Oh, here's one. This is a stretch, but I think implicit in a lot of our politics right now, including my own, so I'll own this and take, it doesn't change my, why don't I just say it? the only way we can combat things like the anti-majoritarian nature of the Senate is to add states or the only way we can, you know, stop Republicans from having an inherent advantage in gerrymandering is to stop gerrymandering. I want to stop those things. And I want D.C. to become a state. I want Puerto Rico to have the chance to choose if they want to become a state. I want to add seats to the Supreme Court. I'm for all of it. Let's go. But I think sometimes there's like a learned helplessness around why Democrats fail to win in some of the reddest places in the country when Democratic politics like expanding Medicaid, raising the minimum wage, union politics sometimes

do much better than Democrats. And so I think we should sometimes put a little more thought into why there's this massive delta between democratic policies and democratic politicians. And when we are also focused on fighting some of these counter majoritarian institutions, because like, you know, we weren't talking as much about how anti-democratic the Senate was when we had 60 seats really didn't come up in the conversation as much. So like, we should not write off the smallest states in the country and just assume that those are Republican forever. There's just no reason to accept that as a permanent state.

That's good. That's good. Here's one for you. This is how we got Trump. People love to state their pet issue and say, this is how we got Trump. My hot take is you're always wrong. 100% of the time you're wrong when you make this claim because it wasn't one thing. That's more of a statement than a debate.

Here's one to debate with you, Levin. Okay. Public apologies work, and they're the right thing to do. I used to be a firm believer that if you screw up in the public eye, you own it, you apologize, you bust out that notes app, you take your lumps, right? I feel 100% confident now that that is the wrong advice and that our culture punishes people who apologize, who, you know, it just gets covered more. There's voices who say your apology sucked. It wasn't good enough. Those drown out all the others. And it's just

a broken process. I think that's, yeah, I think it's, I don't think that there's a clear rule. I don't think that there's a clear rule. I think it depends. I think one clear version of this to me is not for moral reasons, but for pure mercenary political calculus. Yes. Never resign. Never, ever resign. Yes. Like resigning is always a mistake.

Andrew Cuomo, still governor. Eliot Spitzer, I think he's in space maybe or with John Edwards building houses. I don't know where they are. Never, ever resigned. Mark Sanford, yeah. Like maybe it's Mark – well, Mark Sanford, he resigned. He did a thing. Then he ran again and he won and then he lost.

But he's a weirdo and he's an exception and edge cases make bad laws. But but yeah, the if someone if someone close to me was and that and was in it was in a terrible political scandal and asked me what to do. And I was focused only on what was best for them, not for the state, not for the government, not for anybody, but them as individuals. I would say you hang on for dear fucking life. You hide, you do whatever. Maybe apologize, though. See, this is why I think it's sometimes you can get in on apology. Although Liz Brunig, who is a great writer

and often heterodox in a way that makes Twitter very angry, but who I respect a lot, talks about how we have created a kind of system where there is lots of repentance, but no acceptance. And so like, that's not ideal. That's not ideal. But end of incoherent thought. No, I agree with all of that. Do you have any more narratives? Oh, I have one more. I have one more.

Please. Which is the value of authenticity. There's this idea that what we're looking for is authentic politicians. And I think Trump ought to be the thing that kills that dead because he is on stage an incredibly authentic liar, a fully present performer living in the moment, saying what is in his heart and obviously completely full of shit because when you're saying you're looking so i think it's because

authenticity is a lot of good traits stripped of their meaning stripped of their morality like authenticity is an impression of honesty integrity trust, trustworthiness, right? But when you signal to the world that we are looking for politicians that seem authentic, you announce it to ambitious people of all levels of virtue, that like what you need to do is put on a performance of authenticity. And you know what? They'll do it. They'll do it.

So we don't want authenticity. We you know what? They'll do it. They'll do it. So we don't want authenticity. We want integrity. And by the way, I think sometimes the authenticity trap is that authenticity is, I think, for many reasons, easier to be performed by old white guys and often harder to be grasped in the media by women, by people of color, by gay people. So integrity, not authenticity. That's my position. I like that. Okay. This is a random one. I don't know if this is a narrative as much as just a thing that annoys me. Why do people gender inanimate objects? You hear this mostly from men a lot of times around like food, like steaks and beer, masculine, salads and wine, feminine.

No, it's fucking food. You're eating food, sustenance to keep you alive. But I actually think it's kind of a dumb, damaging thing if you think about the idea of telling a bunch of young kids, especially young boys, that like eating healthy is not what they should be doing for like made up gender reasons. It's a thing that's really bothered me for a long time. Yes, it's it's happening. It's playing out right now around.

I'm trying to even say it without the lab grown meat, like meat that is not made of cows, but made out of other materials. And, you know, there's this like culture war going on now in Texas where they're like, you can't call it meat. And, you know, and I saw there was a great ad by one of the companies, Impossible Beyond, one of the fake meat companies. Fake meat's not the right term. We need a better term. You haven't cracked it yet.

I told you this. You haven't listened. But their campaign is, are you afraid you'll like it? Which I think is really good. It's really good kind of pushing back on that. But yeah, it's like there's always this thing. which is really good kind of pushing back on that. But yeah, it's like there's always this thing.

It was like when Ted Cruz put bacon around the end of like some kind of a gun to cook the bacon with the gun. To cook the bacon. And it's absurd. Yeah, there's a – yeah, the – yeah, masculine food is pretty incoherent. But, you know. Decades of bad advertising, basically, just rotting our brains. It's interesting. It's like, even flowers,

right? Like, flowers are feminine. What? It's very... It's hard, right? Because so much of language is analogy, and we speak in analogies all the time, but they really do get into our brains. Yeah. Gender. It's a real pickle.

It's a real pickle. Last one I prepped for you, and we can cut this if it's too weird. Stalin was a good listener. Now, love it. This take was hot on the Twitter streets a couple days ago. A professor at Riverside City College in California tweeted, people say I idolize, in quotes, Stalin. Not true. I hold a fair and balanced view. The man was neither savior nor saint, but he was at once a very successful revolutionary, a great contributor to Marxist theory, and said to be a great listener and collaborator during discussions, end quote. So you might look at Stalin and see a paranoid totalitarian leader who threw millions of his own people into the gulags. I see a shoulder to cry on. There is no view too stupid to find quarter on the internet. None. Not a one. And

this was true. When I see Elon Musk tweets, I think maybe rocket science is easy. When I see Ben Carson's public utterances, I think maybe brain surgery is easier than it looks. When I see this person tweet what he's been tweeting about fucking Stalin, one of the worst mass murderers in human history, I think maybe getting a job as a professor is easier than it looks. And here's the other thing I would say. Just a reminder, you can say nothing if you want. All of us.

You can just let it go by. You can just let it go by. Yeah, I thought Bo Burnham put it very well in his special. Just shut the fuck up. All of us. You can just let it go by. You can just let it go by. Yeah. I thought Bo Burnham put it very well in his special. Just shut the fuck up. One hour. Because there's just – in Dark Knight, there's this moment where this cop wants to interrogate the Joker. And the cop says, I've seen a lot of punks.

And I know the difference between the ones you can hit and the ones who will like it. Well, I'm gonna hit you and I'll just have to try to like it more. That is what engaging with trolls is. You are engaging with a joker who likes the pain and whom you cannot beat. So you know what?

Don't do it. The lesson of Dark Knight, don't feed the trolls. Don't feed the trolls. I totally, I see it. I like it a lot. Okay. That's our narrative section. We're going to take a quick break and we come back. We'll be joined by Jason Concepcion and Ira Madison III to talk about patriotic songs. Stick around. It will be a lot of fun. Okay, we want to welcome in some very special guests for this segment about patriotic music. First, we have the co-host of the fantastic podcast, Take Line, and the host of the YouTube series, All Caps, NBA, Jason Concepcion.

Jason, welcome. Let's go. Land of the free, home of the brave, baby. We are also thrilled to have with us the co-host of Keep It, a man too spicy for Twitter, Ira Madison III. Drop the nudes, Ira. Welcome to the pod. Hi. I'm glad to be here while John's on vacation. Okay. We thought that was the deepest cut of all of us. Here's the plan. So we're going to do, for all the listeners, we're going to do a little draft. So we're going to select our five most patriotic songs. When listeners hear this episode, you will be able to go to the various Pod Save America social media accounts and vote on who had the best draft or just talk shit to us.

There's no stakes here. This is just fun. So just come for the ride. So when folks pick their song, feel free to make a little case for why it's the best. We're going to define patriotism broadly, I assume. So we'll start by me drawing some names out of a hat to see who goes first, and then we'll do a snake draft. Okay. Love it. Number one pick. All right. I'll kick us off.

I'll kick us off. Let me draft the others real quick. Okay. We've got gotta get our order number two jason oh number three ira i'm bringing up the rear here okay dear diary all right here we go am i kicking us off. You go one, and then I'll do two at the end because it's a snake. Well, should you explain for the audience out there who's not perhaps versed in the snake draft what the snake draft is? Explain it for me.

I don't know what the snake draft is. I've been pretending. He's a pro, people. Jason's a pro here. So the way a snake draft works is whoever picks first goes, then goes second, third, fourth, and then the person who drafted fourth, so me, I'll pick two.

And then we'll come back around to love it, and he'll do two. So that's how you don't get screwed if you're at the end. So think about the way a snake moves, like in this kind of squiggling fashion. As the snake hits the end so think about the way a snake moves like in this kind of squiggly fashion squiggles as the snake hits the end the fourth pick it then comes back and so the fourth pick picks again and then when it gets back to the front the formerly first pick now picks again and it does this whole squiggle

like i said he's a pro don't tread on me now i now now you it. Do not do it. Now you can see it. All right, I'm going to kick us off. This is an anthem for our time and for this moment. It is a song written by Will.i.am, Otto Knows Jetman, Sebastian Ingrosso, Anthony Preston, and Ruth Ann Cunningham, along with the singer of the song, Britney Spears. It was the lead single. It was the lead single from the 2013 album, Britney Jean. The song is Work Bitch, but it was edited for radio as Work Work. I will share with you some of the lyrics that I think capture both the American experience and the ongoing tragedy of Britney Spears' captivity. Here we go.

You want a hot body. You want a Bugatti. You want a Maserati. You better work, bitch. You want a Lamborghini sipping martinis looking hot in a bikini. You better work, bitch. You want to live fancy, live in a big mansion party in France. You better work, bitch. You better work, bitch. You better work, bitch. You better work, bitch. Now get to work, bitch. How is it that we did not understand that these songs were a cry for help you know you know you know love it i know you had to read those lyrics what's your point i knew them off the top of my head oh shit oh wow you're gayer than me i am it's getting personal early everybody uh jason you're up with than me I am it's getting personal early

everybody Jason you're up with your second first pick well it's not only a great July 4th song I see it as a great song for moving to Los Angeles which is a move that I made several years back you know I hopped off the plane at LAX

with a dream in my cardigan lyrics by uh jesse j i love that that a british person wrote this song uh vocal by miley cyrus it is of course party in the usa uh an anthem for our times an anthem for all time an addictive number i love the song does the does the geography quite make sense that she would hop off the plane at lax and then looking to the right see the hollywood sign that doesn't quite track but love the song anyway party in the usa she couldn't have taken the 10 she couldn't have taken the 10 to the no it doesn't work. Yeah, it doesn't... Yeah. The 101.

All right. Maybe she went south and then... But again, Jessie J, a British person, wrote the song. So that's fine. You know what? Jessie A... Jessie J is a great singer. She can blow. A great singer in her own right.

I love her. Yeah. That is true. All right, Ira. Okay. Number one pick. My first choice, you know, inspired by the ongoing drama with the filibuster um and people in the democratic party um i'm picking where the party at by jacket edge

featuring nelly uh because also you know whenever there's american holidays, I'm always like, where the party at? God, that's a good one. That's a real good one. Okay. So I got two now. That's classic Ira. That's classic Ira. He always bounds in the room and goes, where the party at?

I have done that. My first pick. I'm going to pick two. My first pick, Sam Cooke, A Change Is Going to Come Gonna Come. One of the greatest voices in the history of the world. The song became an anthem for the civil rights movement. We will all look past One Night in Miami and how underwhelming that film actually was. If you're going to have the most interesting people in history in a room together, maybe have them do something, just a thought. But that's my first pick. My second pick is Green Day, American Idiot. It is a takedown of post 9-11 hysteria. Don't want to be an American idiot. One nation controlled by the media. Information age of hysteria.

It's calling out to idiot America. How perfect is that? Shout out to Idiot America. How perfect is that? Shout out to the person who would lean over and say, this is about Bush. It's about Bush. It's about Bush.

Your second pick. So my next song is by an icon, Lenny Kravitz. It's American Woman. Ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum. And the lyrics sort of is how I feel about most American women. American woman, stay away from me. American woman, mama, let me be. The American woman's a white woman.

Okay, that's an assumption i think we know who he's telling to get away okay 76 report whoa it's not you're right and who could forget of course here's why i love this i just want to say that i love this pick both for for its essential essence in and of itself and the fact that famously Lenny Kravitz split his leather pants while performing this song, the clip then going viral, an amazing moment in American history.

Indeed, indeed. Let it all hang out, Lenny. He did. Gosh, for my next pick i'm going to go slightly meta i uh this song i love this song it's not just a fourth of july song but i think specifically it works really well on the fourth it is katie perry's fireworks a firework excuse me now i'm so glad you caught that now do i dock it points because because the opening couplet is do you ever feel like a like a plastic bag uh drifting through the wind uh and and uh you know, that being a reference, I think, to a scene from a bad movie that I'm not going to name because the movie is bad and problematic. Yes, I do docket points for that.

But I still think the chorus is addictive. And Katy Perry is a great pop songstress. And I would love to hear this song on the 4th of July. Katy Perry's Firework. All right, love it. You got two. I got two. And I really appreciate that choice, Jason. I understand why you don't like that film. But I think that anyone who isn't moved by two teens saying that there's so much beauty in the world they don't think that they can take it about a plastic bag floating in the wind has ice in their veins, frankly. And I disagree with those who say

that there was some sort of collective fucking delusion about that movie when it came out in what, like 90? 99. 98, I want to say. 98, 99. Something like that, yeah. It's bad. Why did we think that was profound?

Why did people were like, oh man, the plastic bag scene. Holy shit. There's something I always remember because it was from the making of American Beauty and it was a story in which Steven Spielberg saw an early screening, came out of the movie with a tear rolling down his cheek and turned to Sam Mendes and said, you've made a classic.

I always think about that. All right. My next two. First is a song called Main Title. It is the first movement from one of the greatest pieces of orchestral music ever written called Star Wars by the composer John Williams, often connected to a lesser work of film that shares the same name. It is about a group of rebels that take on an empire and win and then, as we learn in later movies, fail to tackle a lot of the systemic internal issues once the empire is

defeated. Main title of Star Wars, one of the greatest songs in American history. John Williams, one of the greatest composers in American history, John Williams, one of the greatest composers in American history. He's done it all. Doesn't get the credit. Doesn't get the credit. If he put some of those songs into a symphony and then Spielberg took from that symphony as found music, he'd be considered one of the greatest composers of all time. But he's not because he's got the stink of cinema on him.

Shame on all of us. Shame on all of us. Shame on all of us. Wow. Shame on Jason. This is a great pick. I agree with it. It's a good pick. Okay. Yeah, one more. Yeah, one more. Love it. Oh, my next is a song

called Fanfare for the Common Man, written to honor America. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Written by Aaron Copland, a gay Jew from Brooklyn. You hear that song, boom, boom.

You're on your banana. Is he single? You're on your fucking feet. Is he single? You're on your fucking feet. Is he single? He's dead. But one thing I really liked... Kind of. So yes, but one thing I really liked about Aaron Copland is he kept getting older, but

his boyfriend stayed the same age. Okay. Kevin Spacey fan over there. That's not a... They were adults. I'm not... They were just... He just... You's not they were adults i'm not they were just he just you know they were adults you creeps oh that's a good pick all right jason you're up whoo okay uh tough to pick here but uh let's go with one of the greatest renditions of the Star Spangled Banner ever put to wax recording. Whatever you want to say, it is Whitney Houston's rendition, rest in power, of the Star Spangled Banner.

I know we have divisive feelings about this particular song. We have divisive feelings about this particular song, but who can hate on Whitney's stirring and absolutely flawless delivery of this song? It is Whitney Houston singing the national anthem. Children were singing that song at weddings, graduations, at funerals. You know what else I really like about the performance, Jason? Because it's so big and it is so memorable and and so when i think of it i think of it as this gigantic

incredible long sweeping performance but actually she walks out there in that track suit she starts she crushes it crushes and she's gone it's not it's tight it's tight the thing i remember about it is that after it was done who and i don't remember who the who the person calling the game was just went whoa like understated yeah ira you are up all right well um i'm surprised no one picked this already um but i'm gonna have to go with the seminal classic uh american pie um which of course was released in 2000 and the soundtrack for the madonna rupertt Everett film, The Next Best Thing. I'm, of course, talking about the Madonna cover of American Pie. Oh, my God.

Disgusting. Shame on you. Thank you, William Orbit, for the remix. Sick. That is a sick choice. Hashtag did it first. I'm coming. I'm bringing the heat right back to Jason

because I'm going with the Jimi Hendrix version of the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock. Can't beat it. Because the song itself, it evolved over time like the country. There were hundreds of different lyrics that morphed into what we hear today. The Hendrix version, some would argue, is the most powerful version of it in history. Jimi was in the army. Vietnam was raging. It was like he was just in history. Jimmy was in the army. Vietnam was raging. It was like he was just this torn, tortured person in that era. So Hendrix is my guy here.

And then my next one, similar time frame, but I'm going to go with Creedence Clearwater Revival, Fortunate Son. Because that is like an in-your-face fucking angry protest song about class and who fights our wars and who makes the decisions to go to war. And it's angry and it's scathing and it's awesome. Didn't Trump come out to Fortunate Son in like one of those didn't listen to the lyrics moments in American political history? That's exactly right. And that's America too. That's a big part. That's America's story.

Yeah, not paying attention. Singing songs and not paying attention to the lyrics. That's the story of this country too. Ira, your fourth pick. You know, my fourth pick is from a musical. I love this. It's very American. It is the opening song from Assassins,

Everybody's Got the Right. Off-Broadway cast, not Broadway. I want you to know that as I was thinking about off-Broadway, as I was thinking about my choices, the only place where I feared overlap would be Sondheim. That was where I thought that that's where we might overlap. I didn't end up choosing any. You probably would have picked something like America

from West Side Story. Shit. No, I didn't. I didn't. Am I up? Yeah. I'm sorry. Jason's up. Jason's up. Wow. I'm going to jump gonna jump down i'm gonna pick up one of my lower seeds a little early just because as a high school band

kid uh this one uh really speaks to me i love a good band arrangement i'm gonna go with stars and stripes forever by john phillips who's a it's uh you know as soon as you hear it you want to you Stars and Stripes Forever by John Philip Sousa. It's, you know, as soon as you hear it, you want to do that quick step and march. And again, I love to hear those tubas. I love to hear those sousaphones. I love to hear the clarinets, the trumpets, the flutes. Give it to me. John Philip Sousa, the stars and stripes forever.

It's a great pick. Great pick. You know you're dealing with a master when they name a giant tuba after you. When you can make a new tuba. He did that thing. When you can't get what you need out of a tuba. I need a new tuba. For what you're putting out there, we need a super tuba. Our current tuba technology is not

up to the standards that i am looking for therefore i'm going to disrupt the tuba space and create a whole new tuba with a wider range love it you got two i'm just loving sua disrupting the tuba space Alright, my next two And I want to go in here knowing that Some people play to win Some people play for history With the choices that they make

My next choice It is It is From the ballet Rodeo, The Courting at Burnt Ranch, specifically the section called Hoedown, the 1942 ballet composed by, you guessed it, gay American, born 1900, died 1990. That's right.

It's Lithuanian Jewish origins, Aaronaron copeland with hoedown from rodeo yes i'm well aware of it i love it big. You are talking about so many dead gay people today. It's the same. It's the same one. It's the one dead gay guy. Well, I almost, I want you to know,

I almost, I made a choice and I, I almost was going to give you a range of gay Jewish composers. And then the problem was it was hard to not go with George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. That's a great one. But Rhapsody in Blue

has been double tapped in the back of the head. One shot by Woody Allen in Manhattan, the other by United Airlines. So that's an executed song dead on the ground. And then it was like, well, there's Samuel Barber,

but it's like adagio for strings while very american it's too sad it's too sad even though the american story is i'm just thinking 9 11 and of course like freak out never forget but like yeah it's too much i mean isn't the most american gershwin song slap that bass sure sure why not why not uh my next choice and that's not the there's another too that you're not there's another there's there's darker there's darker there's darker choices in the gershwin song catalog but the next choice is appalachian Spring, specifically the Allegro by the late composer.

It's Aaron Copland. It's Aaron Copland. And my reason for choosing all of these Copland songs, again, knowing that this was not for a win, but for history, is I just want to remind everybody listening that gay Jews from Brooklyn wrote the American songbook. All right. They wrote America's songs. All right. Some of them married women and they hated it. Some of them didn't. Some of them married women and then had heart attacks, which seems like probably were just kind of panic attacks from the lives they had to lead. But they wrote great songs. All right. Shout out Charles Ives. I don't know if he was gay,

actually. Shout out to Charles Ives, whether you were gay or straight. If Charles Ives was straight, I apologize. He was an accountant. I do know he was an accountant. Or an ad man. Everyone's gay when they're dead. It's true.

Not that the Mormons have anything to say about it. Ira Go. That is true. No, Jason's up. It's a Jason, then Ira, then me. Oh my God. Okay. Snake trapped. Woo. Snake trapped.

Well, here is where I'm kind of thrown into disarray a little bit here. You know what? I'm going to say, I thought about, I'm just going to take you into my process. I thought about picking American Boy, but I already picked a song written by another British person about America.

So I'm not going to do that. I also don't know what Estelle is up person about America. So I'm not going to do that. I also don't know what Estelle is up to right now. So I'm not going to, I'm going to go away from that one. Is she queuing on now? Okay. So I'm glad I didn't pick. Okay. So I am going to go, gosh, this is tough.

You know what? I'm going to go with Woody Guthrie's. This land is our land uh you learn it in school uh it is a folkways classic one of the great protest songs uh in american history uh the fact that they teach it to kids uh is funny to me because then you read the lyrics and you're like oh this is this is actually quite, this is like actually revolutionary socialist propaganda that I'm learning as a child, which I maintain sharing this country as one people.

It's an ideal that we should try to live up to. This land is our land, Woody Guthrie. It's critical race theory is what it is. It is. Yeah. Don't let the right read the lyrics to This Land is Our Land. Don't tell Tom Cotton. Ira, your final pick.

I know. It's like, do you think I'm going to go for a very serious, earnest one? Or I see love at space. I know what he thinks I'm going to do. But I'm going to go with a serious one I'm gonna go with The Black National Anthem As sung by Beyonce

At Coachella I knew it Yeah, lift every voice and sing Great choice There's a real opportunity there For you to say one of the many other songs She sang I mean, I could have gone with Independent Woman There was a real opportunity there for you to say one of the many other songs she sang. I mean, I could have gone with Independent Woman because I'm constantly throwing my hands up at her because I am an independent woman.

Yeah. I'm a mama who's profiting dollars. You bet. You bet you are. Yeah. That's what everyone says about you. Thank you. Struggling here with this last one.

Okay. I know what I'm going to do. D'Angelo, Devil's Pie. Fuck the slice. We want the pie. Watch us all stand in line for a slice of the Devil's Pie. It's about greed, materialism. What is more American than that?

Rick Rubin, I think, produced it. Pretty sure he did. Great song, great artist, underrated. Listen to it, kids, if you don't know this one. Also featured in the movie Belly, which is also underrated if you want to see lots of rappers acting. So that's my final pick.

Not Tommy talking about Bell belly on this morning. I think I've seen belly 10 times. I see that for you. It's a good movie. There's that scene where they come into the club and like, it's all lit up. I forget what song's playing. Anyway,

I'm not going to sing it. Uh, guys. Yeah. I was really hoping i was i was on the edge of my seat hoping that it would happen no no no man singing is uh something you only hear on uh on all caps nba because one of us went to berkeley and one of us can't well it doesn't mean i can't you know a hype williams classic so look here's the thing. As a small child, I had a wonderful, melodious voice, famed at Camp Starlight, where I was Oliver, where I took on many a great role.

And then I hit puberty. And I vividly remember the two gay guys who ran the theater department. One of them saying, what happened to John? And then the guy at the piano went puberty. And then that was the end of my guy at the piano went, puberty. And then, ba-dum-bum, ba-dum-bum. And that was the end of my, that was the end of my music career. So I won't be doing very much singing.

You were bullied by the Gershwin brothers. I was. Also, by the way, just doing a little internet searching here. It turns out Charles Ives may have also just been a huge homophobe. So I just may have my wires crossed there, just something to keep in mind.

But then again, maybe she protests too much, you know? I know fair i don't know put it in the comments on charles ives am i up is somebody up are we done i think we're done we're done we're done uh i i have to thank all of you for for playing along with this that went better than i ever could have possibly hoped that is our first maybe final uh patriotic song draft thank you thank you ira uh everyone go on social media uh the cricket accounts you can roast us you could first, maybe final, patriotic song draft. Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Ira. Everyone, go on social media, the Cricket accounts.

You can roast us. You can vote for who had the best draft. And when we come back, you'll hear my interview with Roger Bennett from Men in Blazers about the story of America, his immigration story, sports, soccer, all kinds of other fun stuff.

So stick around for that. I am thrilled to welcome on today's guest. He's a broadcaster, podcaster, co-host of the fantastic Men in Blazers shows, and the author of the amazing new book, Reborn in the USA, Roger Bennett. Roger, great to have you on the show. Tommy, it's a joy to be back. Okay. So today's episode, we're talking a lot about narratives. And I thought your book is a perfect way to talk about the power of the story of America, the power of American movies and culture and music, because this book is a self-described Englishman's love letter to America. And I feel like it's so nice to hear that sentiment, because I think we rightly have talked a lot about the enormous flaws with this country, but it's important to also remember what a privilege it is

to be here. So it's also a privilege to have you. It's remarkable to be here just after the July 4th weekend. I wrote this book for so many reasons. Your listeners can probably tell by my accent that I'm not from the United States, but I have become in my heart more American than Kenny Powers. I'm probably like Bruce Springsteen levels. That's what I aspire to. And I grew up in Liverpool, England at a dark time in the North's history, 1980s, the great city of Liverpool, magical place that was falling apart economically, politically, culturally. There was a heroin epidemic, unemployment soaring,

Thatcher just laying waste to the coal pits, to the steel mills. If you've seen Billy Elliot, you kind of know what I have. And I didn't have ballet to save me, Tommy, but what I had instead of the arabesques really was American soft power, the culture, the books, the music, the movies, the television shows, the Chicago Bears. And I feasted on all of them. They all seemed to be little breadcrumbs of a life that could be lived in color, whereas mine was lived in black and white. So I want to talk about that feast. I want to talk about John Hughes and the Chicago Bears

and the music. But let's just start with your formative experience growing up in Liverpool, because the book is so funny. And it's incredibly relatable detail, because I want to get to that experience. So you talk about teachers just caning students regularly, beating the crap out of them with rulers, I guess. There are scenes where students put hydrochloric acid on a teacher's desk. There's a thumbtack on a teacher's desk. Was your school full of sociopaths or was this normal for Liverpool? Yeah. One of the working titles for the book was This Past As Normal. It was normal. I went to a school in England where at the time, almost every school, 1980s, the teachers created discipline by just thrashing the students. It was a school. It was like the last festages of the British Empire. In my school, Britain still had an empire. Children should be seen and not heard.

Study Latin, Greek and ancient history. And any deviation was met with a quick thrashing of the buttocks. And you'd routinely go home absolutely battered by a sadistic teacher. And your parents would just be like, oh, son, were you a bad kid again? It was everything passed as normal. And, you know, it was the story you're referring to. One of my classmates put a thumbtack on a teacher's seat and he sat on it and we all held our breath to start laughing when he jumped up in pain. Instead, he delivered the lecture for an entire hour. And at the end, he said, And I was foolish enough to sit on it. And as a result, I must pay the price. The World War II prisoner camps teach us,

if you have an action, you must pay the consequences. And I have paid mine. And he walked out and left us absolutely gobsmacked by his sadistic attempt to tell us his life truth, which was pretty awful. Unbelievable. I mean, I guess, unless anyone feels too bad for you about all of this, high school sounds just like a bacchanalia. which is pretty awful. Unbelievable. I mean, I guess, unless anyone feels too bad for you about all of this, high school sounds just like a bacchanalia. I mean, there are some stories that

maybe are too hot for TV. Roger, you might have to buy the book to find out what happened to the poor microwave at one high school party. But it was so relatable because I think every kid, every high school class has that one high school party that got famously out of control, right? Like there was my sophomore year, my friend walked into one party and someone he'd never met before came up to him and said, Adam, do you know Millie? And she was the person who lived there. And she asked this of Adam and he said, yes, yes, I do. And this stranger said, tell her there was a small fire in the basement, but it's been contained. And that was his entryway to this party.

And I thought of that as I read about this just debauchery with you and your friends at the pubs every night. I mean, you kind of had to pull yourself back from the brink there at one point. Well, you survive in a world of darkness with humor. There's a reason so many English comedians come out of Liverpool it's hilarious and you know you survive through um making light of a darkness that surrounds you and also Liverpool was the port city in which every product rolled out to the empire in the olden days and and then everything came in and and liverpudlians look out to see and dream of a world which is different to our own and particularly towards america told me

you know all the products all the goods all the services from america rolled through the port of liverpool it's not a coincidence that the beatles uh came out of liverpool it's where rock and roll first hit England. Paul, John, George and the other one, they all rose up. And so we felt so close to America. And so I told myself I was an American trapped in an Englishman's body. My own family story is that of three generations ago, my great grandfather Harris was a butcher in the Ukraine. He dreamt of a better life like thousands. He wanted to go to Chicago, the hog capital of the world. And the myth of the Liverpool Jewish community

is that it's full of the low IQ individuals that when the boat from Eastern Europe docked to refuel in Liverpool, they looked up at the one tall building on the Liverpool skyline, thought they were in New York and got off and said, you know, we're here. We've made it to the promised land. But it wasn't. And my grandfather, Sam, who I was so close with, when things were dark,

he would pick up this little tchotchke statue of liberty, plastic souvenir toy, and he'd just look at it and he'd say, we should have lived'd say we should have lived there we should have lived there so i was so every american piece of culture heart to heart the love boat fantasy i all of it just filled me with they were like clues of this land that i felt i was america even though i'd never set foot there and obviously the the parties told me your party my party it was run dmc and the beastie boys that were just essentially, they were the puppet masters of all of our behavior for at least two years. Amazing. So Roger, the transfer portal opened and we got our hands on you on June 1st, 2018, you became an American citizen. Congratulations. We are thrilled to have you. But before you spent, you know, before you became a citizen, you spent all this time in the US watching,

observing America. You are our modern Alexis de Tocqueville. Was there anything you were able to see in that time that you think that we missed about ourselves? I first came to Chicago when I was 16. I came over for a summer and I lived in the northern suburbs with my pen pal. That's the person you write to, young listeners, before the age of the internet. And it was John Hughes's neighborhoods, Glencoe, Highland Park, I lived in. And it was as promised. It was as promised. It was the Holy Land, New Trier High School, which was bigger than most English universities. My mom went there. Oh, New Trier Mafia. Thousands of your listeners are no doubt. Yes, I went to it. It was it was eye openly spectacular. And I met the Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning team. William Refrigerator Perry whispered into my ear, dream big dreams, kid. You can do anything. I did. You can too. Which I now know working in sports is an amalgam of every cliche any athlete just flings off when they

meet some little kid and want to get the hell away from them but when he said them I was like oh my god he's telling me to move to Chicago as soon as I can and I did I did I moved here at the first opportunity after um university in England and I got a job my first job I was an illegal alien which I think is an important part of the story, Tommy. I came on a tourist visa and just never left. And to begin with, I was a waiter, a baker, a terrible baker, 4 a.m. shift. I was a librarian. I was full asleep in the stacks. I was just hustling. And then I got a job. I'd done a law degree in England. I got a job during the welfare debates, during the Clinton welfare debates, where single African-American males were really stigmatized in that policy debate. And I worked with public advocacy groups to train mostly

homeless men how to talk to the media about the challenges between welfare and work. It was amazing. So I arrived and then spent most of my life in the Robert Taylor homes in the near south side of Chicago. And so what I realized immediately, young Rog, and this will not shock you, Tommy, you spend your whole life grappling with this. I was absolutely aflame, and I still am. That's why I wrote the book. I still am. The biggest motivator, the driver of my life, the driving force in my life that I've acted upon as a kid that grew up with a Statue of Liberty painted on his bedroom wall and the Manhattan skyline and dreamed of moving there and made that dream come true by luck and by luck, by being

blessed. But I realized that's the American idea. And I instantly, in the Robert Taylor Holmes, you immediately are exposed to the American reality. And the gap between those two was startling, is startling. Obviously, I wrote the book in the past 17 months of lockdown when all of that really fermented and became unbearable and impossible to ignore, which is why ultimately, the epitaph for a book that's about a love of America, a lifelong love of America, the driving love of America, why the epitaph of the book, which is probably the most

important words in the book. They're not mine. The epitaph is such a funny, sorry, it's why the epigraph of the book, the epigraph is such a funny part of any book where you're actually using somebody else's words to set your own up, or in my case, overshadow them. It's the words of to set your own up or in my case overshadow them it's the words of of langston uh hughes let america be america again the land that never has been yet and yet must be i love the book in your political awakening it starts when your father makes you uh be one of like the only people in all of liverpool to support margaret thatcher and go around and canvas and knock doors. And then you get obviously immediately makes you just a red hot flaming liberal like like me, you know, just like the absolute opposite of whatever he intended. Yeah, I mean, my father is a judge in Liverpool. And Liverpool, when I was growing up, the city was, it felt like you could walk

onto a street corner and stare at buildings and genuinely see them deteriorate before your eyes. I remember watching Mad Max, The Thunderdome and thinking that the wasteland, yeah, the wasteland didn't look that bad to me. I was like, that'd be an upgrade on where I'm living. And it was a deeply political time. Thatcher was making the South rise up as a financial centre in Europe. And the North, she just laid waste it. And Liverpool was her punching bag. She stigmatised the entire city.

And we grew up at a time when Liverpool City Council had serious debates about whether they should cede from the rest of England and become a republic, a socialist republic, the Republic of Liverpool. And in that milieu, my dad was like one of the last conservatives. He adored Mrs. Thatcher, loved the Queen. You know, I was waiting for school like everybody.

There were pitch battles at the time, all up and down England between the miners trying to fight to save their union and That Thatcher and the police force, just running battles every night on the news. Just thousands of men just bloodied in pitch hand to hand battles up and down, up and down the north and the Midlands. And so I wore for school under my collar, which was a canable offence if you were found a coal not dole sticker like i was all in but my dad my dad was the last probably maybe there were a dozen thatcher supporters it was the most fruitless thing it was like go daniel going into the lion's den but with the opposite set of values and he said you know we need to leaflet these areas with conservative uh um what you call in england bump propaganda crap and And, you know, I was 9, 10.

I'd do whatever my dad said. Like if he said you can't answer the phone when it rings during dinner time, that's the rule. You do it. And we went and we had just dogs set on us. We had bags of piss chucked at us. We had as well we bloody should have done. And there's no better way, I believe, than to turn your kids into flaming progressives than to force them to do what we did. So in a way, I'm thankful. And every election, my dad would say before the results came in, when I went to bed,

he'd say, if the Conservatives lose tonight, we're going to move to Canada. And Tommy, I had seen, I had seen Degrassi Street. It didn't look half bad in Toronto. And I would go to bed and I would like kneel, like I'd seen, you know,

how you pray in school. I'd seen that. That's what you do. I'd kneel, put my hands together and I'd say, please, God, let Thatcher lose tonight. And she never did. So this political turmoil is this formative

experience for you. And then you become a citizen in the middle of the Trump era, right? When racism and anti-immigrant sentiments just spewing forth from the White House. Did you ever worry that you joined Team America right before we were about to get relegated to a lesser tier of democracy because it felt bad for a minute mate mate mate i mean there's a joke on my show amongst our fans that when a elite athlete comes on or a movie star they are guaranteed to have a just a bomb of a movie within weeks or you know aaron rogers came on and then lost the lost the Tampa Bay in the in the playoffs immediately and when that happens the fans always tweet hashtag curse of Rog and I have to be candid that I became an American in 2018 it was the and will be the single greatest

achievement of my life to be a kid that had dreamed and yearned, completing my family three-generation story, finally becoming what they always dreamt of when they left Ukraine, chased onto the boat, no doubt by Cossacks. Three generations later, I was completing that journey. And to stand in that room, Tommy, Generations later, I was completing that journey. And to stand in that room, Tommy, to stand in that room in the southern tip of Manhattan in a courtroom with 162 individuals from 42 nations around the world. And you look left and right. And, you know, these individuals, all I'd done was survive a couple of thrashings from teachers and then late night beatings in chip shops after the pubs had closed. There's individuals who had escaped civil war, famine, you know, trekked across, you know, arduous terrain. And all of us had been united by that idea of America in my life when I needed it.

Run DMC, Chicago Bears, Tracy Chapman, whatever. And I know it sounds, I know it's, but to me, it's like saying Animal Farm is a book just about horses and pigs. It's much deeper than that. And so are all of those things to me. And America gave me, and everybody in that room, you could see the tears, the joy, the dreaming. You could see

that America had given, the idea of America had given each of us courage, strength, joy, hope, a sense of possibility that there could be another world to the one that we lived in. And so that was an incredible moment. And at the time, the last president's headshot was hanging over the judge. And the judge who swore us in did allude in his speech, said, not everybody, not everybody feels about new immigrants as I do, as we do in this room. the courtroom and tweeted a photograph of myself. This is why I wanted to write this book about a love, a nuanced love of America. I came out and tweeted a photo of myself with a naturalization certificate. And it was the most joyous day of my life. And immediately there was a, you know, I must say the majority of people joyous, just welcoming, just elated. There's a true joy in new Americans arriving. but there was a strain in social media who who said you know good roger you've done it the legal way and started to kind of make a a political point out of the whole thing and it it devastated the days for me because i

realized just because i'm white and funny and on television, they just project that Roger's one of the good ones. But the honest truth is I am a legal alien who came to this country with big dreams, no plan, no money, bit of hustle. And it was really devastating in that moment that that fight broke out on social media. I wanted to tell this story because I think that the story is important. Then even more so, Tommy, because I decided to write the book and then obviously did nothing about it.

Then lockdown began. I live in New York City. New York City was the ground zero of the pandemic. Sports shut down. Sports is how I make sense of the life. It's the drama. It's the human theater that animates, gives structure to my life.

And so Nature Abhors a Vacuum. And I started to write the book. And then as I wrote the book, the pandemic response just segued into the black lives matter some of the agony the pain just uh just the just the immense trauma of that period of time and then into the toxicity of the election cycle and I did I did think my god is this the ultimate curse of roge that I have stumbled into and and then the second thought tommy is who the hell if this thing goes bottom up this election who the hell is going to want uh want to read a

book about a love of america like am i going to have to just plug it on newsmax and oann and like the the publisher's going to be like good news we got someone to blurb your book bad news it's sebastian gorka he's the only one who wants to attach himself to a love of America. So it was a deeply traumatic time. And through the book, I tried to embrace that trauma. And I think the book is a beautiful antidote to some of that trauma. And in particular, the scene where you become a citizen and all the people around you and applauding for each other and the diversity in the room. It's just a beautiful story. It's a uniquely American story, and I loved it.

All right, so I feel like I'm actually torturing you by not asking you about sports for this long. So the episode comes out July 5th, right? What's left in the Euro 2021 tournament? I've been watching. A lot of listeners maybe haven't. What should they tune in for? And then do you have any pitches for uh olympic soccer later this summer i know our the american women are as badass as badass gets if only our men were half as good as our women we would be we would be dominating on both sides of

the field so the euros is the world cup but just for european teams and it was postponed last year because of the pandemic so it's been unbelievable just to have this at all to have 11 cities across Europe host this just delicious tournament where the nations are taking the field with their histories taking the the field alongside of them and just so much narrative um in this tournament and there's been you know so much uh so many storylines where because the joy of football is that it's really just a mirror that reflects societies the politics the culture that surround it so there's been and let's just say there's a lot of history when whenever a european team takes a field so we've been we've been very

blessed a that it's happened at all b that there's fans there c that i mean there's been incredibly joyous storylines there's been some terribly dark storylines with hungary and victor orban using his team as a essentially attempting to use his team as a symbol of of of statecraft and um and and black uh black shirted thuggery. But when this podcast airs, we will be down to the final four. One of those four could be England, which is, you know, for England, is just a remarkable, they're like the New York Knicks of world football.

They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So we'll be down to the final four. And then next weekend, we have the final. And the joy that surrounded this tournament being played by men who have exhausted, psychologically, physically exhausted by the pandemic schedule of football over the last year. They played with a giddiness, with adrenaline. Just so many. they pulled on the

shirt sang the national anthem and they've almost reverted because they're all exhausted they're all knackered and they've just played like kids on a schoolyard there's been a giddy joy a hilarity it's been like the scorelines have been like aba basketball in the 1970s and it's been uh it's been a whole continent has made memories memories that they will savor for generations. It was so fun hearing you talk about the England-Germany game on Men in Blazers, your podcast. And like hearing that there are some people in the UK who see, you know, the UK play Germany and think about, they still have that anchor there from World War I or World War II or like real past battles.

I mean, to your point, like that history really does come out on the field for some folks. It never really occurred to me that that was true. In the worst possible way, this tournament is going on and there's an English-born bloke. You know, I ride with Team America now. I want to make that clear. When America and England play each other, you know,

I am only cheering for one side and it's whatever side Piers Morgan isn't on. So I am absolutely on Team America, but I can measure my life by one traumatic, self-sabotaging defeat against Germany after another. So I'm always braced for the darkness. against Germany after another. So I'm always braced for the darkness. And for the England team, the stakes feel so high, Tommy, because we enter this tournament as a divided nation, post-Brexit,

divided in so many searing ways that manifest itself in a toxic fashion around the football, especially in the run-up to the tournament when in the practice games, the warm-up games, English fans returned to watch their beloved national team for the first time in 16, 17 months and decided to boo their own players when they took the knee. You know, the players are trying to protest racism in the game and in society. And in the run-up,

that was a dominant storyline. The English manager had to, and he's truly emotionally intelligent, Gareth Southgate. He's a deeply empathetic human being. He had to spend almost all of his press conferences talking about racism in the nation. He sounded more sane in doing so, I have to say, than our prime minister, you know, who by refusing to criticize the booing fans for an entire week

just further defied the nation. And that's the joy of this tournament, is that this young England team are models. If they can pull it off, and by pull it off, it's a national question rather than just a footballing one, of a new England, Raheem Sterling, a Jamaican Englishman who has addressed the issue of racism in society in the most exquisite ways. He scored three of the four goals the team have scored. He's an incredible human being.

The young star Marcus Rashford, who spent his summer taking on the British government on the issue of child hunger, feeding kids below the poverty line, modelled a new form of sporting leadership. And we always mock football players. You know, they make piles of cash. They just want to drink champagne with supermodels and then crash Lamborghinis into the lampposts. But this team contained the seeds of an exquisite England,

a new England, and using their platform for the force of good. And that's really the battle. They occasionally, to know, and, and using their platform for the force of good. And that's really the battle they, they occasionally to me, Tommy seemed to be some of the last sane human beings left in the country. I love it. I love it. Okay. So Raj, my, my last question is really more of a favor. Uh, I think you're about to change my life. So I love watching the Euros. I love watching, uh, the world cup when it's on the Olympics, but I don't have a professional club. And I keep saying I want to watch more football, watch more soccer, but I don't have a club. So will you be my soccer sommelier and help me pick a team based off of some tasting notes and some personality

traits that I'll share with you? Yeah, Tommy, that's why I live. I live to surf. And ultimately, football is just human theater, and you are about to pick your role. Let's do it. Okay. So my entire sports identity is derived from being from Boston. Now, Raj, as we both know, the last couple decades has been near constant domination, cheating. There's a lot of bad shit there.

But my formative years as a kid were when Boston could never win a championship, right? In football, this was the Parcells, Drew Bledsoe era. We were also living with the scar tissue from the 86 Red Sox in 1918. Tony Eason, make the case that he's the greatest Patriots quarterback of all time, because I can. Tony Eason. Okay, so that's my sports. That's the regional part. I'm a Democrat.

So I'm obviously a glutton for punishment. Didn't know that about you, Tommy. I live in Los Angeles now. So I'm soft. I don't like the cold. I'm pampered. I'm whiny. I struggle with time zones.

So those are things we got to factor in there. Some favorite players growing up. I had Ray Bork. We had Paul Pierce, Manny Ramirez, Nomar. So I don't know. Did I give you enough? What do we think? What I need to know, Tommy, ultimately,

what do you like in life? Do you like winning? Did you like the Red Sox better when they gave you endless dreams and then self-sabotaged and they taught you that life ultimately is about endless hope. And when you do have a modicum of joy,

you just dance as if you're at your own kid's wedding because you know life is dark and really it's about savoring great times when you have them. Or do you prefer the world domination days when you could say, look down on us all from the mountain and just say, yeah, we cheated, but let's overlook that part. Winning ultimately is all that matters. Where are you on that spectrum? Because that's ultimately the issue. I'm not going to lie. I kind of miss the pre-2004 Red Sox vibe when we were the lovable losers.

I remember watching Aaron Boone just smash a ball into the stands and walking by another bar as I went to my car and hearing New York, New York being played on the piano. You know, like I like the pain. Yeah. Tommy, Tommy, I, by the way, I relate to that. I used to, I love traveling America. It's one of the joys of my job is to, and I've missed it so much over the past 17 months. I love Charlottesville.

I love Nashville. I love all the Ville's. And I used to love when I first came here, going to Boston in the late 90s going to Fenway Park and just sitting there and it reminded me of home, it reminded me of Liverpool just the

sadness of the fans the shattered, shattered bereft hope and just the eternal willing to go again willing to be constantly charlie brown kicking any ball that lucy was holding i'm going to tell you tommy welcome welcome this is life-changing for you welcome to everton football club it's yes it's just it's a family it's community it's a club that does everything off the field so joyously.

Like they invest in community. They've got social programming. They care about their fan base. They just, it's such an authentic, exquisite club. We eternally are desperate to return to former glory of the 1980s. We find, let's just say, we are lost in the woods without breadcrumbs to help find our way out.

And the occasional moments, the occasional moments of glory, they feel all the sweeter. And I do, I've made, it's one of my life achievements. You know, ultimately, my greatest achievement is becoming American. And I do hope that in six generations time, my NBC headshot just is above my descendants dinner table. And someone will say, who the hell is that bald person? And they'll say, oh, we don't remember his name anymore, but he's the one that brought us to America. That is the greatest achievement of my life. But the other achievement is to me, I have four kids and I've made them all Everton fans.

Like it's hard work. It's because Americans like winning and Everton don't do that a lot. But my wife is like, why the hell would you do this? Why the hell? And now she's going to say, why did you make Tommy? Why did you make that sweet, bloody Tommy an Everton fan? And I do believe it's an approach to life.

Life is hard. Life is dark. There's a lot of disappointments, a lot of challenges. But when those moments of wonder come, Tommy, when those moments just dance, just savor them, just make, that's a whole point of sports, make collective memories together. And now you and me, Tommy, we are going to make them together. Well, now you got five kids. Thank you, Raj. The book is Reborn in the USA. I literally picked it up as I told you via DM. The only reason I put it down was because I actually went to a baseball game. It's such a fun read. It will make you feel better about the country.

You'll laugh your ass off at lots of fun stories. I can't recommend it enough. So, Roger Bennett, wonderful to have you on the show. Have a great 4th of July. Have a great everything. Same to you, beautiful man. Tommy, and to all of you at Pod Save America and your op, courage. We're doing the outro. This is it. All of us are still here. Love it. Ira, Jason. Hello. Can I tell you what my runners up were that I didn't get to say? Yes, please. They were Fight the Power because Chuck D came on Love It or Leave It.

Okay. Good one. They were The Times They Are Changing by Bob Dylan, specifically because it is a song in which the water's rising is a metaphor, and now the waters are actually rising and still nothing changes um and you know hey

that's it those are my alternates those were the two I didn't get to I went for my Copeland theme man my alts were Rump Shaker by Rex and FX and um and Philadelphia Freedom by Elton John.

I like that. I like that. Any Alzheimer's? I had Eminem's White America. And I also you know, I also had Did It Autumn by Nicki Minaj because I'm a bar before I'm an American. I like that. I had Dixie Chicks Not I'm an American. I like that.

I had Dixie Chicks Not Ready to Make Nice. Good protest song. Lord Royals because Royals is not in our blood but we're happy to be your ruler. I thought that was

a very American sentiment. Jason Isbell, the TVA. It's about infrastructure projects that are very hot right now. Simon and Garfunkel, America. A moon rose over

an open field. who hasn't put that song i can't believe no one picked the pod save america theme yeah that's true like the nintendo music oh childish gambino this america simon and garfunkel america one of our great pop songs that doesn't rhyme it doesn't happen happen often but that one does it um i will always uh i will always love the katie Perry song Roar but for the fact that in the song she rhymes the word fire

with the word fire that will always bother me you can't rhyme the same words it hurts our brains I don't know why but it does see that's why

you're not a Barb love it okay I love Nicki Minaj rhyming China 12 times in one verse okay we're different people. That's just something, that's okay.

Yeah. Right? That's America too, isn't it? I thought. Yeah, it is. It is. Well, we learned something about America and ourselves in the outro.

So thank you all again. Talk to you next week. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer.

Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Nar Melkonian, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.