Pod Save America - Barack Obama on Democracy, Gaza and 2024

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

It’s Election Day, with big implications for abortion, democracy, and much more in Ohio, Virginia, Kentucky, and Mississippi. It's also one year out from the 2024 presidential election, and a new set of battleground polls in the New York Times shows Donald Trump ahead of Joe Biden just about everywhere. Meanwhile, Trump takes the stand in his civil fraud case while his advisors draw up plans to use the military against protesters if he wins the election. Then, Barack Obama sits down with Jon, Tommy, Dan and Alyssa Mastromonaco for an expansive conversation on democracy, violence in the middle east, and his memories of winning the presidency fifteen years ago. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Tommy's accountability partner, Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Pitor. That's my worst nightmare. On today's show... Weird, weird. I have a different feeling about it. Go. We'll get to that later. On today's show, Donald Trump takes the stand in his civil fraud case.

His advisors draw up plans to use the military against protesters if he wins the election. A new set of battleground polls in the New York Times show Trump ahead of Joe Biden just about everywhere. Speaker Mike Johnson uses an app to monitor his son's porn intake. And later, our interview with Barack Obama on the 15th anniversary of his 2008 election. How about that for a description of the show? A couple of accountability partners getting together in Chicago. Think you would have done this if we told him what was his lead in? Probably not.

But first, it's election day where Ohio will vote on a ballot measure that would protect abortion access. Virginia will decide whether to give Republican Governor Glenn Youngkin the Republican legislature he needs to ban abortion. Glenn Youngkin, the Republican legislature he needs to ban abortion. Kentucky will decide what polls are now showing is a very close race between Democratic Governor Andy Beshear and Republican anti-abortion extremist Daniel Cameron. And Mississippi decides whether to elect a Democratic governor for the first time in 20 years. If you live in these states or other places with elections on Tuesday, go vote. Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Thank you, Tommy. Big election there.

There's some New York City elections as well, local elections there. There's elections, people. If you need more info, if you want to know whether there's an election near you or how you can help, head to votesaveamerica.com as always, and we'll be breaking down all the results later this week. All right, let's get to the rest of the news. We are a year out from Election Day 2024, and the New York Times is kicking off the party with a new poll of more than 3,600 registered voters. It's a big sample across the six most competitive battleground states that show Donald Trump leading Joe Biden by an average of 48 to 44 percent.

So they did 600 voters per state. Trump is up 52-41 in Nevada, 49-43 in Georgia, 49-44 in Arizona, 48-43 in Michigan, and 48-44 in Pennsylvania, with Joe Biden leading only in Wisconsin by 47 to 45 percent. The results don't seem to reflect either Trump's strengths or the Democratic Party's weaknesses. Trump is slightly more unpopular with voters in this poll than he was in 2020. And voters would choose in this poll an unnamed generic Democrat over Trump by eight points. And at least in this poll, Democrat over Trump by eight points. And at least in this poll, even Vice President Kamala Harris performs two points better than Biden against Trump. What is mostly bothering voters, at least in this poll, is what we've seen in nearly every single poll for the last several years. Biden's age, his handling of the economy, and his ability to do the job. I'll stop there so you two can get in on the fun. And maybe we can start with your takes on the reaction from the Biden folks and some

Democratic strategists, which I'd summarize as it's one poll. Obama was in a similar spot back in 2011. The election is a full year away. The campaign hasn't started yet. The economy is improving and Trump might be a convicted felon by the time people start voting. What do you guys think? Yeah, I mean, the point that we're a year out from the election is absolutely right. Lots of time. Events will change. There's time to campaign.

The campaigning hasn't really even started. There will be lots of paid media, billions of dollars of paid media to try to sell Joe Biden's message to America. That's all right. media to try to sell Joe Biden's message to America. That's all right. The response that grinds my gears a little bit is the everyone stop bedwetting. It's like, ah, we can't tell people that, you know, the future of American democracy itself is at stake, but also like chillax, you know, like I think everyone's allowed to feel a little anxiety. And so, you know, I think what you do with that anxiety is up to you. And, you. And those of us who want to channel it into action by volunteering and donating and getting involved, I think that's the path forward here. But in terms of what we learned from this poll, I mean, it's clear that Joe Biden personally has real challenges at the moment with younger voters, especially voters under 30. He went from being up considerably in the last election to basically tired. He has real challenges with voters of color, both African-American and Latino voters. And there's real questions about his age.

of color and young voters that he's actually working for them and that his policies are improving their lives because a lot of people are saying in these polls they're not feeling that improvement. And then separately, I think there's this age question of whether he can convince voters who have been convinced by, I don't know, maybe it's misleadingly edited social media videos on TikTok or whatever that he's not fit for the job that in fact he is. But, you know, a lot of different tracks here for problems he needs to solve. Yeah, I mean, also, by the way, like you don't need to see misleadingly edited footage of Joe Biden to worry about Joe Biden's age.

Joe Biden's age is his biggest liability. He is very old. It makes a lot of people, including us, nervous. And I think like you look at what the response has been and you say, all right, Barack Obama went through a news cycle like this. You can look at previous incumbents, George W. Bush, and say like, these are all people that saw polls at around this time that showed them down and they managed

to claw their way back. The uncertainty in all this, which I think is a reason for a lot of grave concern, is the effort you can make in the ways that you would in any race to close some of these gaps around making sure people understand your accomplishments, making sure people understand the threat that Trump poses. I mean, one number that I think is really bad in this poll, but is actually in a strange way, a glimmer of hope, is it says only 46% of voters say Mr. Biden has the proper temperament to be president, barely higher than the 43% who said the same of Mr. Trump. Like you can look at that and say, hold on a second. That's how look how badly Biden has lost his edge. But then you say, well, hold on. But then you say reintroduce people to Donald Trump they know and hate. And all of a sudden you'll

see those numbers come down. But what we don't know is, OK, you've done that. You've made a case for Joe Biden and his and his accomplishments, his legacy as that. You've made a case for Joe Biden and his accomplishments, his legacy as president. You've made a case against Donald Trump. Does the age factor continue to matter in a way that you can't control for it, in a way that you can't change? Is it a liability that is, is it an unwinnable assignment to overcome the age question? That is, I think, the fear. I want to separate our analysis from our advocacy here. Like, obviously, we want to do everything humanly possible to make sure Donald Trump doesn't become president again. And that includes doing everything humanly possible to reelect Joe Biden if he's the nominee. But as always, we want to give you like the most honest analysis. And that means no sugarcoating.

And it also means no like unnecessary doomerism either. neither um so with that said like here's where i think the biden folks have a point it is just one poll even excellent polls which i think the new york times sienna poll is can only tell you about how voters are feeling at that given moment and this happens to be a moment where the u.s and the world are in turmoil and barack obama did have approval ratings that were almost as bad as b Biden's one year out from the 2012 election. But here's where I disagree with some of the rosier analysis. The polling averages all show Trump slightly ahead right now, not just this poll. And you can, you know, a lot of people were like, the Susquehanna poll last week had Biden up seven. Yeah, it did. But when you average all the polls, Trump is slightly

ahead. Unlike Barack Obama, Joe Biden's approval rating has been stuck in the low 40s for two years now. Two years. That was not the case with Barack Obama. It went up and down, up and down. For Joe Biden, it was in the low 40s when other Democrats not named Joe Biden overperformed in the midterms. Midterms where the New York Times poll basically nailed the results of the most competitive Senate races and where most of the polls that weren't done by partisan Republican firms were also pretty accurate. Polls did not predict a red wave in 2022. The political coverage suggested a red wave. The nonpartisan polls were actually really good. And when Nate Silver wrote his trollish Is Obama To toast piece in the New York

Times that everyone's citing from 2011, this is what the polls in the months of November and December said about an Obama Romney race when Nate had that headline. Obama plus six, Obama plus six, Obama plus four, Obama plus one. There were 13 polls in those months. Only two had Romney ahead. The rest all had Barack Obama ahead. So, and like the other challenge, the age challenge, obviously, inflation has come down. Prices have not. And so the problem is like, you know, you're pissed about a $15 cheeseburger. The $15 cheeseburger is no longer, the price isn't going up anymore, but it's stuck at $15. It's not going to be $12. It's not going to be $12. That's the issue. And that is a source of real frustration for people. People say, oh, it's just one poll.

Yes, it is a snapshot and polls catch people at a moment in time. What I find, to your point, this poll is a reflection of a lot of other polls. This poll is not an outlier of what we're seeing. 100%. Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying. So it's like, yes, you can view this as a snapshot in time, but you can't say, oh, don't worry about one poll because this poll is capturing a mood is capturing a feeling. It is capturing a result that we've seen across the board. personally hurt them, but they think Trump's policies helped them. So that means that 59% said they trusted Trump over Biden on the economy. It was 59% to 37%. That's a pretty large deficit on the economy. And then when it comes to the age question, 71% of voters think Biden is too old to be an effective president. Three years ago, only 30% of voters said he was too old to be president. Now, the Biden folks will push back and say in that same poll, 39% of voters say Trump

is too old. And that's right. And that's fair. But I think that speaks to probably a large subset of people in the country who feel like they're both too old and are looking for some sort of alternative, which might mean they lead to the Green Party. They are good RFK Jr., et cetera. And so I think when it comes to the age question, it's not guaranteed that you can change people's mind about whether someone is too old to do a job,

right? That might be a view that gets hardened. The other last thing that worries me is half of the respondents think that Joe Biden profited from Hunter Biden's business dealings. Now, all available evidence suggests that that is not true at all. There's no evidence to back that up. But it again, speaks to how powerful the right wing disinformation ecosystem has been, and how much, you know, efforts on the Hill to just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks have actually been effective. I want to zero in on the voters that Biden is losing here, as Tommy pointed out, young voters, especially young nonwhite voters and also nonwhite voters in general. And I think when you hear that, maybe when a lot of people listening in our audience hear that, they think, oh, maybe those voters think that Joe Biden is not progressive enough.

That is not the case. The young voters and the voters of color who have left Joe Biden in this poll are more disengaged from politics. They are more moderate. They do not necessarily think that Joe Biden isn't progressive enough. They also don't think he's too liberal. Most of them say that ideologically he's just fine. They are upset about the age and they're upset about the economy and they are abortion democracy. A lot of the social issues are not their top issue. Their top issue is the economy. That is the number one issue for a lot of these young voters. They are extremely disaffected. And in general, they did not show up in the midterms. So you must be thinking yourself

like, okay, what about all the young voters? I know that are very progressive and voters of color who are progressive? They showed up in the midterms and they voted for Democrats and they have supported Joe Biden in the past. So those voters are with us. The voters who did not show up, if you just correct Joe Biden's problems with the voters who didn't show up in the midterms, he would be ahead right now. Yeah. And, you know, if you just if you just take the young voters who were open to Kamala, but not to Biden, you erase a lot of the gap. And by the way, it's not like Kamala Harris is beating Donald Trump. A generic Democrat is beating Donald Trump. Kamala Harris is doing better than Joe Biden is doing, but she still carries some of the the effects of incumbency. Fifty nine percent of voters under 30 rated the economy as poor.

the effects of incumbency. 59% of voters under 30 rated the economy as poor. Zero respondents under 30 in Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin said the economy was excellent. The other thing about this too is the message that's driving the midterms right now, trying to turn people out against right-wing extremism and turn people out in favor of abortion, which helped a great deal in the midterms. These voters that we need to bring back aren't the kind of voters who turned out in the midterms. Now the question is, are they people that are receptive to an argument around abortion and democracy, but it hasn't reached them yet?

40% of voters who picked Trump in this poll said that abortion should always or mostly be legal, and they picked Trump anyway. And so what is it that we need to do to reach those voters with a message around abortion? Or is it that questions around this? We've talked about this before. Like, you know, we have this belief that this argument for democracy is really effective. It is for a certain segment of voters, strictly engaged people. And also, by the way, for a lot of like moderate older voters that are the kind of people that have come to Joe Biden.

But for for younger, disaffected voters, we're making an argument for democracy in a democracy they don't feel is working for them. So what is it you need to do to make that case around abortion, around democracy and around basic economic issues to bring those people in in a way that we're currently not doing? Because clearly there is there is a there is something really missing here. those people in in a way that we're currently not doing because clearly there is there is a there is something really missing here you got a real nevada problem well 17 of nevada democrats said they'll vote for trump also the most diverse state yeah and it's it's very odd how for the first time in a long time racial polarization has gone the other way in this poll so someone was like people are you know rightly questioning like well then then why is Biden leading by two in Wisconsin? Wisconsin was a tight state. Wisconsin is the whitest and one of the older states. And he's doing next, the next two best states for him are Michigan and Pennsylvania.

And those are also pretty white states, but except for the areas around Philadelphia and Detroit, where he's not doing that well. And there's subsequent survey data that came that was done after this New York Times poll that suggests that Biden has some real problems with Arab American, Muslim American young voters in Michigan, that I think is just something to keep in the back of your head. The other interesting thing is when you, Biden is doing better in this poll with likely voters than registered voters. And if you just go by likely voters, he actually catches up to Trump in Michigan, and then he does better in some other ones. And that's part of this is, and Nate Cohn goes into this in the polling analysis, which is like some of these younger voters, when you ask

them the first time, do you pick Biden or Trump? They said neither. And then it was only when you push them, they said, or maybe Trump, but they don't really love Trump either. They're not like sold on Trump. And the question is, do these voters just stay home in 2024? And so we also could be headed for a very bizarre situation where a lower turnout election helps Joe Biden, which is, again, why Democrats, one of the reasons why Democrats did so well in the midterms, because the type of voters who show up in the midterms, college educated in cities, suburbs like those are now more Democratic voters. There's also I mean, look, young people are not suddenly discovering that they're open to Donald Trump in a strange way. This poll to me is a little bit of a bizarre version of what we started to see in 2016 and, you know, didn't really accept as what was happening, which is this idea of Trump is just like this like giant middle finger you can pull like a lever. Like, are you for Joe Biden?

Are you for Donald Trump? I'm for neither. Well, you have to pick. Fine. Then fuck you. I'll vote for Donald Trump. Yeah. So there could be a little there could be that or it could be serious.

We don't know. We don't know we don't know i mean the one thing i would say look i think we've done i think we've done our um um our our uh penance to the pessimism gods i think we've we've paid our respects the fire was burning i i know i've i just real analysis i know no i know i'm not not i'm i'm agreeing i'm glad we're having this conversation there was one one piece of this is i think like there was a little note of a little note of hope a little you know. Oh, I have a couple. Yeah, I have a couple.

I'm getting to the good side. Okay. Well, just the one I thought was interesting is that if Trump is convicted of a crime, 6% of voters across Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin said they would switch their votes to Biden, which would change this entire poll. It's not just- I mean, get to 49% Biden. No, that means, so it goes from Trump 48, Biden 44 to Biden 49, Trump 39.

I mean, that's- It's a ballgame, but it's not even a majority of the countries. No, but that's all- Yeah, no, I know. 6% sounded small, but then when I look- Look at what the- When you actually look at what happens in each state, Biden's winning by double digits in every state.

No, it's the 49 is from people who switch from Trump to Biden and also people, Trump voters who go to third party. And but what I was going to say about that is, OK, people are very bad. I think sometimes at imagining how a changing circumstance will change how they feel. You'll see one number that I think was quite abysmal that I don't take very seriously is where people say they would never do this or never do that. There's several of our presidents have been people who have had polls that said more than the majority would never support them. But the fact that even just imagining it, there are 6% of people who switch tells you that like the impact of what happens with Donald Trump is convicted could have like a massive shift in in in polling i really it is the the biggest source of optimism in this poll that if donald trump is convicted and and but it also speaks to all of we say it a million times but like all of us who pay such close attention to politics and are like news junkies like most voters are just normies they don't pay that close attention to politics and so you know what that because we're all like how could they see that that Donald Trump did this and said this and how could they still vote for him? And like, they're not paying that close attention. They forget pretty easily. And you know what, they really care about the economy. But there are also people who if they see a candidate for president get convicted of a crime, they're gonna be like, oh, no, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't want to vote for that person. I'm pretty unhappy with Joe Biden. I think he's a little too old. But this guy's a criminal. Like it does make sense that like when you whenever you're confused about the electorate, just think like, what among young people that Joe Biden is too old.

And that is especially pronounced among people who are disaffected and don't pay close attention. Over the next year, if they do start paying closer attention, if the coverage starts shifting to a head-to-head race between Donald Trump and Joe Biden, is Joe Biden on the campaign for the next 11 months and 29 days, is that going to leave people reassured around his age? Or is that going to bring more attention, especially given the way it's edited and shared on social media, more fodder for people's deep concerns? That's up to him in the campaign. The other sign of optimism is, look, the voters that are giving Trump the lead in this poll are voters that have typically supported Democrats and just supported Biden, in fact,

by large margins, right? Young voters, black voters, Hispanic voters. So in theory, these are easier voters to win back for Joe Biden, right? Like this, the idea that Donald Trump could get 20% of the black vote, something that has not happened with, forget about Donald Trump, any Republican president in the post civil rights act era like that would be and you know nate cone says this in the analysis it would be like a earthquake in american politics and it is probably unlikely right now does donald trump can still win without 20 he can he got eight percent last time he could get nine ten eleven and probably win that way but it does speak to the idea that once you like tomm said, throw a billion dollars into a campaign, start a campaign that reminds people what they care about, what Donald Trump is all about, what Democrats are all about, what's at stake for them and their lives, the numbers could start shifting.

That's the other thing. Look, an unnamed generic Democrat led Trump by this poll by three in 2019. Now the unnamed generic Democrat leads Trump by eight. Right. And that just goes to show that Trump has become less popular between 2019 and now. The problem is Biden led Trump by two in 2019 in this poll at this time and now loses by five. So it is a it is a Biden issue. Yeah.

And just the other the other piece of this, too, is a Biden issue. a lot of polls in the past, but it's not stable because people's decision is firm. It is stable because people are really unhappy with their choices and they continue to have that feeling. So our pal David Axelrod caused quite a stir when he said that Joe Biden needs to decide whether it's in his best interest or the country's best interest to keep running. What do you guys think of Axelrod's Twitter thread there? I mean, let's just start with the fact that David Axelrod is a good person who genuinely cares about the future of the country. And he's not doing this to be a dick or because he wants to hurt Joe Biden or, you know, any other nefarious reason. He's just worried

like everybody else. I think what is so hard about this situation we're all in is nobody wants to make the mistakes of 2016. Again, to, uh, you know, convince themselves that, oh, there's no way a Democrat could lose Pennsylvania, or there's no way that Hillary Clinton can't win to someone as terrible as a human being as Donald Trump. So we're going to all get asked the hard questions and kind of speak truthfully about these polls, but you also don't want to contribute to Joe Biden's political problems by helping generate unhelpful narratives about his candidacies, right? So that's the hard place we're all stuck in. But at the end of the day, unless you're a Dean Phillips supporter or you're excited by Marianne Williamson,

there's no one else in the Democratic primary for you to vote for. And I've seen no evidence that Joe Biden's considering dropping out. So as much as I respect Axelrod's opinion, like, I don't think that Joe Biden is going to listen to David Axelrod on this question. I don't think he's going to listen to us either. I think there's probably a very small group of friends and family and advisors that Biden may or may not talk to about a question like this. And so, you know, I get where Axelrod is coming from, but I also get why the White House is frustrated that he tweeted it. Extremely small group of people. Probably smaller group of people than most others. Biden has a very close circle. And Joe Biden is going to make this decision. And the only people he's going to listen to are probably Joe Biden and Valerie, his sister, and probably not even Barack Obama. It's a very small group of people.

And so you focus on the things you can control and not the things you can't control. We cannot control. We're not going to get like a hashtag trending on Twitter to get Joe Biden to step aside. Like we cannot control this, right? And an ax can't control it. No one can control it.

So it's got to be something that he decides. Now, if he did decide at some point to step aside, then you have Kamala Harris, who's still in this poll losing to Trump by a little by just almost the same as Biden, slightly better. And then you've got Gavin Newsom, Josh Shapiro, Gretchen Whitmer, J.B. Pritzker, maybe Raphael Warnock, none of whom have been tested on the national stage or even in the polls yet. They'd have to get on the ballot in most primary states this month then when are the debates when and how do they all raise money how's everyone supposed to choose between them by january february march when these primaries are now i'm not saying that's all impossible it like

it can happen but the alternative scenario where joe biden steps down tomorrow brings a bunch of challenges on its own that i think we should just beware of before everyone's like, oh, that's the that's that would be the saving grace if he just stepped down. Like it's there's a lot of challenges to that at this point. I was really very late. I also, by the way, one reason there's a very small circle of people that Joe Biden would listen to on this question is Joe Biden. One reason Joe Biden is president is because he didn't listen to the people who told him

why he goes't be president. It goes through his head all the time. It goes through his staff's head all the time. And I get it. And it's right. And like, you know, never, you know, Ron Klain said this, never underestimate how much people underestimate Joe Biden. I think that's true. I think about that. I think about that in my own reaction to this, because, you know, I have this. We all have these. We're all in conversations. Everyone listening to this show is talking to people about their concerns about this and their concerns that that that as much as they are worried about Joe Biden's age and his liabilities, that you don't feel certain that you would want to live in a world tomorrow where Joe Biden said he wasn't running. And all of a sudden, not the fantasy of a perfect alternative, but the reality of a messy and very quick and very contentious process to choose an alternative is suddenly what we are dealing with. I don't know what that's like. Neither do you. Neither does anybody. And so I don't know. You know, Democrats, we get along. We don't fight. I'm sure a primary that lasted a month or two, I think it would go well. I have to say, I mean, if Joe Biden did decide to drop out tomorrow,

and I'm not saying I'm calling for him or I want him to or anything like that, but if he did, I'm actually fine with a messy primary. I think messy primaries are good. It gets a lot of attention around Democratic ideas. Oh, I am too. I'm just kidding. It's totally fine. It's just, it wouldn't be simple. No.

If you jumped in tomorrow, you already wouldn't be on the ballot in Nevada, New Hampshire, and you have to get on the ballots in Alabama, Michigan, and South Carolina by the end of this week and California and Florida by the end of the month. So it's an incredibly complicated piece of business. And that's why I think people find Dean Phillips so fucking annoying because even if people were like hungry for some Dean Phillips in their lives, he should have done this a year ago, not a week or two ago. And also just, and start playing out, they're all going to want to differentiate themselves from each other on issues.

The progressive base activists are still going to be there demanding certain positions. Just as an example, everyone gets in, Joe Biden gets out and suddenly it's like, who is going to call for a ceasefire? Right. And which of you are going to call this,

which were you, who's going to say no more aid to Israel. Right. And then you're going to start dividing up that. And like, things are going to get, and that's just one issue. Don't threaten me with a good time. I know, you know, I know, but I'm saying that's just one issue, right? And then you're going to start dividing up. And like things are going to get, and that's just one issue. Don't threaten me with a good time. I know, you know,

I know. But I'm saying that's just one issue, right? Like there's a whole bunch of other issues that are contentious. And suddenly we're like off to the issues. I agree, Tommy, that like I do not fear primaries. I never have. But it's a scenario that's not without challenges. It is 44 years to the day since Ted Kennedy decided he was going to challenge Jimmy Carter. I think that looms over a lot of this. People are worried that they would jump in, lose, and leave behind a weakened Joe Biden. But underneath that is also, I think, the reality that, look, even Axelrod, when he was asked about this, by the Times, he obviously did an interview after. And he said, give me Joe Biden's record, chop off 10 to 15 years, I'd be really confident, right?

Dean Phillips goes- We all would. Dean Phillips goes on television and says, I'm not running against Joe Biden. I'm running for the future. Okay. What? Why? What's different? Why are you better? Dean Phillips kind of proves the point of how the alternate scenario is not the easiest either. Yeah. Barack Obama can challenge Hillary Clinton and he can use a generational frame, but that's as part as an avatar for deeper cultural, political, ideological differences, which he laid out over the campaign. The key one being supported for the Iraq war. Of course. Dean Phillips is out there having voted with Joe Biden 100% of the

time saying I'm better than him. Why? I just like we are in one year in one. So right. In one year, there's four boxes. One of them is Joe Biden wins. One of them is Joe Biden loses. One of them is somebody else wins. And one of them is somebody else loses. If Joe Biden stays in the race, we can we will look people will look back at this moment and say, I told you so. If Joe Biden gets out and a Democrat loses, people will look back at this moment and say, I told you so. I don't gets out and a Democrat loses, people will look back at this moment and say, I told you so. I don't care about I told you so's. I just think collectively, collectively, we have to be honest about our own uncertainty and anxiety that it is legitimate, that it is real, but that nobody has an easy or simple answer.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? And I actually don't worry about the conversation and having this conversation. And I don't really worry about Axe's tweet because we just talked about the voters who are worried about here they are not paying attention to this they have no idea we're having this conversation it's just the freaks right now just just us freaks you know and like if joe biden goes through and he's running and he's the nominee we're all gonna just do every fucking thing possible to get him elected because donald trump in a second term is fucking terrifying i had a very smart very thoughtful reporter today asked me if brock obama commenting on the situation in

gaza created political problems for joe biden and i very very confidently said no the situation in gaza creates political problems for joe biden right because that is the core thing that people know i know it's a dc story from a dc outlet. outlet. So it is what it is. But it's like, yes, in terms of the things that actually move people, the voters are actually paying attention to. It's not going to be this debate we're all having. so the candidate who's somehow leading the race for the presidency uh took the stand in the new york civil fraud trial that could cost him his business empire uh donald trump's four-hour testimony included multiple rants uh he was yelling at uh leticia james the attorney general uh he's yelling at the judge. The judge at one point asked Trump's lawyer to control his client.

At one point told Trump, this isn't a political rally. And then, of course, Trump couldn't help but talk to the cameras as he left the courtroom. Let's listen. I think it went very well. I think you were there and you listened and you see what scam this is. This is a case that should have never been brought. I don't have to be here for the most part, but I certainly do have to be here because I want to be here. This is a sad, I think it's a very sad day for America. Seems like he's really impressed the guy who's going to decide how much money he has to pay, huh?

That's what, I keep coming back to that. I keep coming back to that. There's no jury. Not a jury trial. There's no jury. It's's not televised he's not playing for the cameras the person he is antagonizing is 100 in charge and by the way not his guilt or innocence this guy already called him guilty a month ago this is purely about assessing how much this guy wants to punish donald trump and he walks in every day and just like puts a thumb in his eye every fucking day, comes up with a new way to make this judge absolutely fucking hate him.

And I love it. And he does these little press avails from behind a couple layers of bike rack that makes him look like he's currently in prison, by the way. And then to your point, though, about them, like doing worrying about all the wrong things. Don Jr. And Eric testified last week. Ivanka testifies on Wednesday, Don Jr. And Eric, uh, I believe, uh, blame their accountants or suggested they didn't look at financial statements. Uh, but then, uh, Don Jr. Went on social media and basically spent three days whining that Sam Bankman freed, got like a weirdly hot courtroom sketch and that Don Jr. Made him made him look ugly it's like hey man maybe focus on the fact that spf is going to go to jail for a very long time and you don't want to do that either that courtroom sketch though that was wild it was weird that did not look

like him yeah no it did not anyway that's just an aside i just i don't like i know that sometimes we assign strategy to trump and even if it's's not a well-thought-out strategy, it's like he's got a good instinct or he's got an instinct for being a showman or media or whatever. But this is not instinct, pissing off the judge that's going to decide how much you owe. This is him being an undisciplined fuck. Yes. Because when he walked into the courtroom and they asked him questions, he did the like he pretend he was like zipping up his mouth. Right. He's under a gag order. So he like knew that he shouldn't do this. And then he just can't help himself. This is why we got to get him out on the campaign trail again.

Get him out there, cover him all the time. The guy can't help himself. He always falls back into the undisciplined Donald Trump that screws himself. Well, it's also like it's very it's very much like an inner monologue that then pops out. So he's on the stand and he's about the judge. He said, he called me a front and he didn't know anything about me. Trump said, referencing the judge, the judge who's in the room. First of all, rude to talk about somebody in the third person when they're sitting there. But then the judge retorts, read my opinion, perhaps for the first time.

That's a good one. The New York Times live blog pointed out that he even embarked on an impassioned ode to his Scottish golf course, calling it the greatest golf course ever built. Again, who is that helping, Don? I know. So in case voters aren't put off by electing a convicted felon who tried to overturn the last election, perhaps Trump's plans for a second term will give people pause. The Washington Post reports that Trump intends to use the Justice Department to not only investigate Democratic opponents like Joe Biden and his family, but also former allies who've turned against him, like Bill Barr and John Kelly. He's got the whole list. He's got the whole list. And this is even

more alarming because the Bill Barr, John Kelly thing, I kind of laughed. It's really alarming. because the Bill Barr, John Kelly thing, I kind of laughed. It's really alarming. Trump's goons are reportedly drawing up plans to invoke the Insurrection Act as early as Inauguration Day to deploy the military against any anti-Trump protesters. It has a name. It's a group of outside people. It has a name. It's called Project 2025. Yeah, I think it's like, how is it the Heritage Foundation? What's happening over there?

For the first time, nothing good. Acceleration is madness. But usually they're just talking about supply-side economics. Now they're using the military against the American people. Like, can we get enough people to care about that?

Or would voters rather a president who threatens them at gunpoint than Joe Biden, who's a little too old? Yeah, yeah. Put this in a fucking ad. Put this in an ad. I don't know. I'm not convinced this one's going to work.

I care a lot about this. Deploying the military against demonstrators is very bad. He's told advisors that he wants the Department of Justice to investigate all of his allies. Apparently, John Kelly, his former chief of staff, said that in the first term, Trump would tell his White House counsel to have the FBI investigate his enemies. And they would just kind of pocket veto those kind of crazy demands. But in the second term, you're not going to have thoughtful, reasonable people in any of these jobs. It's going to be the lunatics chosen by this Heritage Foundation group of whoever it is.

Yeah. Stephen Miller. I do not think, sadly, that people will give a shit that if donald trump goes after bill barr and john kelly or even democrats and i i hate that but i i worry about what the polls would say about that i do think military against the american people is something that would get people going and i could be wrong but i'd love you just got to convince them it's like a real story and not just like hyperbolic reporting from Democrats or whatever. That's how I, like, I don't, there's this, we're in this vice grip again, which is that when Trump is off the front pages, people forget how terrible he is and how

monstrous he is. And then when he's back on the front pages, the, the tears of his horrors kind of meld together. And it ends up being a kind of like fire alarm that's always going off about the ways he'll abuse the Justice Department, his threat to abortion rights, his chaos, the fact that, you know, that the military said they wouldn't launch nuclear weapons if he wanted to launch them, unleashing the cops into Lafayette Park. It's just like the crime and the corruption and the scandal. And I don't have an answer to it, but I do think that like,

it does end up becoming either silence or noise. And I don't know. I don't think it's, we don't know because it's nothing right now. No one's doing it. And I think like, even on that one, I would, there's the images of the uh trip across

lafayette park when he tried to do it there there's him saying he wished he did it he wished he invoked the insurrection act we have that then we have the washington post story so you're right like just a story and a headline i don't think you're gonna i know there's challenges but you can tell a story here's our square the circle bill barr Bill Barr, John Kelly, General Milley, the top military and political aides of Donald Trump. Maybe this can convince them to sit down on camera and tell the stories that they tell to the Atlantic on background, or when they go to the Aspen Institute Forum and they get drunk with the editors of some fancy magazine. Sit down, record these on camera, tell us what you heard tell us the worst

stories and maybe you can prevent this outcome yeah that includes you getting prosecuted i mean we have some of them doing that in during the january 6th hearings and which i think had an effect yeah the one i was going to add is trump has now taken to referring to the january 6th insurrectionists who've been convicted as hostages. Did you see this? Yeah. And I think the images of the Capitol and images of what these people did and of the people who died and the chaos, and you put video of Donald Trump calling them hostages that he's basically saying, or sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly that he will pardon and release. I think that's like pretty fucking damning uh because again one of his lowest moments is when people saw january 6th they really internalized just how dangerous he was

we have to put that back in people's minds yeah i do i it's like turning the military against the american people is going to be it's chilling to people and i think that like we gotta we gotta i mean you gotta figure out a way to make the case because it's the truth it's not just like a political attack it's it's what he's gonna do it's what he wanted to do before and like if for no other reason than that you like we have to make that case i also just i also think this ties back to the conversation we had about polling too because i do think that like we're we're you know we're my our minds go right to right what do you do how to react what does it mean but you step back from this and it's like i think a lot of people see a poll like that.

And like, to your point, they're like, I don't understand. I don't understand. And you're like, the point you made is right. Like people don't know. They're not seeing it. These are the disaffected people. These are the people that aren't paying as close of attention. That's a big part of it.

But another part of it too is like the fact that Joe Biden came in in the wake of a pandemic facing a recalcitrant Republican opposition and managed to get as much done as he did get done and that he's not getting any credit for it. That is obviously something that Joe Biden campaign has to deal with. It's something that we as people that want to make sure a Democrat wins has to deal with. But it is, I think, okay to point out, we start with a handicap of a media environment in which it is very hard for people to get informed and understand what's going on in the world. And like that sucks. That is really frustrating. That makes politics a slog. It makes it feel impossible. And like that isn't even that isn't. Yes, the Joe Biden campaign has to deal with that reality. But that's not on. That's not on Democrats. That's not on us as individuals who care about this. Like that is the reality of dealing with this broken system that made someone like Trump eligible to be president in the first place. That's all. Let's not forget that if Trump wins, it's very likely that Mikey

Johnson remains Speaker of the House. And the more we learn about this guy, the weirder he gets. Here's a clip from all the way back in 2022. I first saw this clip. I was like, oh, is this someone unearthing this from the early 2000s? No, no, no. 2022, where Johnson talks about using an app that allows he and his son to monitor each other's potential porn intake. Covenant Eyes is the software that we've been using a long time in our household. It's a subscription-based. We don't make any money on this, I'm telling you, we use it, okay?

They're not, I'm endorsing it because I'm a user. It scans, you obviously opt into it, but it scans all the activity on your phone, or your devices, your laptop, tablet, what have you. We do all of it. And then it sends a report to your accountability partner. So my accountability partner right now is Jack, my son, right? And so he's 17.

So he and I get a report of all the things that are on our phones or all of our devices once a week. If anything objectionable comes up, your accountability partner gets an immediate notice. I'm proud to tell you my son has got a clean slate, all right? So who's going to be accountability? You two are going to be accountability partners? I got Dan.

First of all, it's hard enough being a teenager these days without big brother stopping you from masturbating you know he's like like oh my i'm so proud my son's devices are clean like okay i guess he's using his imagination the uh but he's a fucking teenage boy i don't care i don't care how how many bibles in the house. There is an unspoken understanding between fathers and sons that you know that I know that you know what it's like to be a teenage boy. And you know that I know, but we're not going to talk about that. We're not going to send any transparency reports. We're not going to talk about any slate being wiped clean. Wiped clean of what, sir? Like, this is fucking madness.

And I've seen a bunch of people on Twitter be like, oh, you know, I grew up in the evangelical church. There what sir like this is fucking madness and i've seen a bunch of people on twitter be like oh you know i grew up in the evangelical church there were apps like this you know like this is the that's the furthest thing from my upbringing so cult chalk that's a cultural blind spot for me i guess but having your accountability you know why you know why the spot's so blind having accountability partner be your son that is that's a myth john having your accountability partner be your son is so fucking weird it's that is so weird i also like um someday he's gonna snap and just to get back at his dad he's gonna he's gonna go house on that phone look and mike johnson's gonna get quite a report someday um like there's sort of a there's a there's

um so speaker johnson sorry to bring this up but but it sounds like but for Covenant Eyes, you'd be whacking it off constantly or what? What are we talking about here? How badly do you need this app? It is really sus. You need an app to keep you from looking at porn. Something's deeper there. This is from, this is from the promotional materials for Covenant Eyes. Install the sensor app on all of your devices to form a network of

protection. The Victory app is where it all comes together. You get access to exclusive content to help you grow. The whole point of this is that exclusive content to help you grow? Isn't the whole point to stop that? Isn't that the thing?

Isn't that the enemy of these? Isn't that what God's trying to stop him from doing? By the way, isn't God the covenant eyes? Why do you need an app to stop you if God is seeing it all? Well, now we're getting into the real rest of it. Just saying. You know who I really want to hear answer a question about Mike Johnson in this app? Just for fun, because you know it's going to be a great response.

It's Donald Trump. Yeah. Don't you want to hear it? A tight five don jr i want i want to hear a tight five from donald trump it's on the covenant because everyone's in a while donald trump he won't say anything bad but he'll just smile on his face like he's like because we all know pence is a freak because donald trump does not want to be tied to the guy who's this fucking freaky like he was he's just not like that i I also want,

I want it to be a debate question this week. Let's ask. I want to hear, I want to hear Tim Scott talk about it. I want to hear Ron DeSantis talk about it. We always hear in the media and in polling that like Democrats are too liberal and that we're pushing this cultural agenda that some people don't like

and it's foreign to them. This is so much weirder than anything that the democratic party talks about this is batshit to me we thought we thought it was cool to do the uh the uh the car on the roof for romney in the 2012 campaign that was this i would i would be talking about this thing i will say i am sure to i will just to not to make i don't want to go. I like, there are plenty of people like just to internet porn. Like I am sure the next round of this story is going to be what? The way,

what's going on in your head. And there's so much hedging. I'm trying to articulate this. I'm trying to articulate this. I can't wait for this to be a clip. I'm trying to articulate this, that I am. I think the next round of this story is going to be conservative saying that liberals.

Oh, you think kid, you think, you think kids looking at saying that liberals oh you think kid you think you think kids looking at porn is good and you want you think porn is good and and that like and and look like i the the the creepiness of this aside like i am sure there's going to be around that's all i was getting at is it's going to be a round of story about like internet porn is bad for a lot of teens and it is actually i think really harmful for a lot of kids and it is like on a list of things that we one thing i thought when i saw this is like in the same way that like food is really unhealthy and there's sugar and everything

so you need to either be more disciplined than you than than you could ever hope to achieve or internalize body positivity despite the whole culture telling you that you should feel, that there's so much porn everywhere and you need to be disciplined and stop looking at it. We got a real Clinton V chip staffer over here. Well, I do. I just, I'm not running for anything. I'm not running for anything. I'm running at home. I got some cool content I need to watch. Listen, all I know is that Mike Johnson is giving me a priest of confession who wants to hear a little too much about your masturbation vibes. And I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

Wait, what are you now? What are you picturing? Nothing. And what are they wearing in the. They're wearing. What? Robes. Oh, multiple.

I just think it's something for families to figure out. Oh, yeah. Well, I think they have. They have. He's not. He's not making us download Covenant Eyes. Not yet. Not until Trump's second term.

That's how pissed you'd be if your dad was talking to you. Military in the streets, Covenant Eyes in the sheets. That was really cute the way you guys did that together. That's why we're accountability partners. You get Dan. Yeah, you get Dan. You get to find out what kind of porn Dan likes. Are we done?

Anyway, let's introduce our interview with Barack Obama. That was way worse than I thought it was going to be. Before we get to our interview with Barack Obama, a few quick housekeeping notes. Thank God. Join us tonight. Knock, knock, knock. Housekeeper comes in. You forgot to pay me.

Oh, is there nothing I can do? What? I'm just doing a porn story. Oh, God. Join us tonight, Tuesday night from 4 to 9 p.m. Pacific for our election night support group on the Friends of the Pod Discord. That'll be fun. Then on

Wednesday, November 8th, we'll be back on Discord for our group thread that will cover the third Republican primary debate. That should be fun. If you haven't joined Friends of the Pod yet, you're missing out on lots of fun. Discord's lots of fun. You get great content terminally online. We've got more shows coming up.

It's going to be really fun. Head over to crooked.com slash friends and join. Also, check out What a Day in Hysteria. They're going to have their own breakdowns of Tuesday's election results and what it all means. So check all that out. All right. Last Thursday and Friday, we had the privilege of gathering in Chicago with a couple thousand of our closest friends to celebrate the 15th anniversary of Obama winning the 2008 election.

As part of the festivities that were hosted by the Obama Foundation, Tommy, Dan, Alyssa and I got to sit down on stage with the man himself. We talked about how Obama thinks about the election now, the future of democracy, the war in Gaza, and what all of us can do to help save democracy. the war in Gaza, and what all of us can do to help save democracy. And also, if you like the 2008 Obama nostalgia, we have some great subscription-exclusive content on this very topic coming your way. So again, sign up at crooked.com slash friends to be the first to hear it. When we come back, President Barack Obama. What up, what up? I, uh... I was wearing a jacket, and then... There was, you know, this whole faux casual thing.

It's not faux. I've been this way my whole life. But then Alyssa did remind me, you know, that the whole shirt sleeve, you know, roll up the sleeves thing. You know, that is kind of the brand. That was your vibe. That's the vibe.

Yeah. For this crew. So good to see everybody. You too. Hello. Good to see everybody. Okay, so to see everybody okay so first questions from me okay okay so 15 years ago a lot of people in this room were in grant park on arguably the nicest night that chicago ever could have given us weather-wise unbelievable and i know that all

of us have talked over the years about, well, do you remember this? And do you remember that? And like our memories have iterated. And so I just wanted to ask you, can you tell us what you think about that night when you look back on it? I'll be honest with you. And some of you have heard me say this. Some of you have heard me say this. I felt pretty sober that night. Because I was fairly optimistic at that point of winning was then to do the work. And I have to say, by the time the official announcement was made, I was already spending a lot of time thinking about the work.

And so there was a satisfaction. The thing probably that I remember the most was sitting in the hotel waiting for the final call. And Pete Souza took a picture of this. Some of you may have seen it. Michelle was off with the girls doing something in another corner of the room. And I'm sitting there with Michelle's mom. And we're just watching the television. And she's just quiet and she's just sitting there.

And I remember thinking to myself, what does this mean for her? She was born and raised in Englewood on the south side, had moved then to South Shore, married, raised a family. During her childhood, even her going or being taken to Marshall Fields or one of the department stores downtown, if she could go in, she wouldn't have been welcomed. She had family, people, smart, skilled tradesmen, People, smart, skilled tradesmen, some educators who could never aspire to do more than work in a factory or work as a clerk. And so she's sitting there and she's witnessing that her daughter is about to be the first lady of the United States. And I remember her just, she was very quiet. And then she just, and she's not a demonstrative person. And she just reached out and held my hand.

just reached out and held my hand. And I think that's something that stayed with me. I was thinking about how much the world has changed over the last 15 years. And obviously, you dealt with your fair share of crises in the White House. We all remember that. But we were never living in fear that if we lost the next election, that we might lose our democracy. And obviously, that is a fear that is very much with us right now. And I know you've talked a lot about what it will take to protect democracy. And, you know, that involves policies that improve people's lives and structural reforms and strengthening institutions and winning elections. But you and I have talked a lot over the years about the power of a really good story. And I wonder if you were running for president today in this political environment, in this media environment, what story would you tell

about why democracy is a better choice than what the demagogues and authoritarians are selling? a better choice than what the demagogues and authoritarians are selling? So, I think the starting point is to talk about the things that are uppermost on people's mind to give you a permission structure to get to democracy, right? One of the things that we learned about 2016 is if you are simply running against and fear,

and you don't have a positive story to tell about the concrete challenges that people face, folks may not get to that higher level story about the meaning of the country and so forth. So I remember during the midterms when I was a surrogate helping folks out, midterms when I was a surrogate helping folks out. One of the things I really insisted on is, well, we need to talk about inflation, and we need to talk about crime, and we need to talk about immigration. We need to talk about the things that are uppermost in people's minds are being fed to people and speak about those squarely. And that's the gateway to then get to where we want to be. So that's point number one.

Look, if you think back to what we did in 08, 12, ideally when we were on our game during the course of the presidency, the story really didn't change about America. change about America. And the story was you have a bunch of people show up on these shores, many of them outcasts, many of them escaping tyranny, escaping crushing poverty, escaping discrimination, escaping caste, and trying to make of their lives what they could. And even more importantly, trying to make sure that their kids had something different. And it was always a, from the very beginning, an experiment in overcoming the gap between ideals and reality. And democracy was never exactly as promised. And then we had a bunch of people who worked together to realize that promise. And I think we can tap into right now is, is remembering,

reminding people of the fact that we've been through stuff like this before. We've been through eras in which not that long ago in which black people were second-class citizens, in which gay people were in the closet out of necessity, because otherwise they might not be able to be employed, or worse. We've been in situations in which women were subordinate. And the good news is, is that because we had this system of being able to persuade each other about the better angels of our nature,

in fits and starts, we got better. We got kinder, we got more tolerant. And it's never been perfect. And it's never been, it's always been messy. But there was a pathway for us to express our best selves. And that was true not just for Democrats, it was true for Republicans too. Republicans too.

And so I think that's the starting point for them to be able to say, and some of you have heard me say this, it's not as if the entire history of this country, Democrats were on the right side of this thing. Democrats for most of modern history, up until the civil rights legislation, they were anti-democratic and terrorized people

and killed them for trying to exercise their democracy. So we don't have clean hands. And I think acknowledging that is, again, an entryway. What I'm always trying to look for is a way to get to the point where somebody who otherwise wouldn't listen and is fearful and is angry

and suspicious can stop because they feel as if I saw them for a second and I understood their lives. And in that moment, can stop because they feel as if I saw them for a second. And I understood their lives. And in that moment, maybe then I can persuade them that this precious thing we have, which is our ability to sort things out and exercise forbearance towards each other and understanding

and just getting along and listening, if I can get to that moment, then I think we'll be okay. And that's really the instinct that people have. Look, let's face it. We did well in this last midterm, not because all the trend lines were in our favor. It was because the majority of people believe in that story and they recognize it in their own lives. And so speaking to them on those terms is what's vital, which is why I think the last time we were together, I said that kind of forbearance, we have to model and exercise as and a losing strategy for us, I think, is when we are so insistent on our purity, when we're so self-righteous about our positions, that we can't see those folks.

Or we're talking down to them or... Our general attitude is that we're gonna convince you about how wrong you are. I have not seen that work yet. Now, look, last point I'll make. And I think about this a lot because I've been writing about it. There are times, there are moments, there is room for a prophetic voice, just radical truth-telling. just radical truth-telling. And not only is that sometimes satisfying, but our own base sometimes needs to hear that, right?

But you have to pick and choose your spots and you always have to, even when you're in that mode, you've got to give people an opening. You have to give them an invitation. There's got to be room for them in that truth that you're speaking. I'm telling you something maybe that you don't want to hear, but you know what? I'll bet you can understand it and be a part

of us addressing that truth. All right. bet you can understand it and be a part of us addressing that truth so all right um so speaking of those kinds of conversations uh last week you wrote this thoughtful you know nuanced statement on the situation in israel and. Unfortunately, the debate online, especially on social media, is not that. It can be very strident and dug in and a lot of people fighting and talking past each other. I imagine there's a lot of people in this room or people listening at home who see what's happening, care deeply, want to be educated, want to participate in the conversation, but they're scared of saying the wrong thing, hurting someone's feelings unnecessarily,

or just kind of not knowing enough to participate, and therefore they kind of tap out. What's your advice to people who want to participate in these debates that can feel so fraught about what the path forward is? Look, I always say I probably wouldn't have been elected even to the Senate, certainly not the presidency, had there not been this weird convergence with certainly not the presidency, had there not been this weird convergence with the Internet and early social media. I was an outsider. I didn't have the backing of institutions and organizations. organizations, and there was so much power in seeing all these young voices being able

to gather together from every walk of life. But I'm dating myself now. It was mostly MySpace and Meetup. And I always, because I've been working a lot on social media issues and misinformation and now AI, I always point out, you know what the thing about meetup was? You had to meet up. Because it's a pretty crude Flintstone tool, right? You send, it's like, hey, we're going to be in the church basement in Des Moines on Saturday. Meet up.

That was pretty much the extent of the technology. It's like a cork board. But the reason I tell that story is that the power of meeting up is something that all of you will remember whenever we'd walk into the campaign office, just as was true if you went to a meet-up meeting, is you've got a young black woman with a nose ring, and you've got some middle-aged white guy in a flannel shirt and a buzz cut who's an army veteran, and you've got the Hispanic gay engineer. And the reason that was powerful was because you imagine at the first meetup meeting, okay, I've got an assumption

about what an Obama supporter is. But then when I sit there, it turns out that that person's not actually completely like me and if they're talking that means that they've got some quirky ideas and I promise you, you all know we had some quirky volunteers and had some who had some unexpected views that did not correspond to the litmus test of progressivism. Right?

The reason I'm telling that story is because what that allowed was for all of us to see each other in their complexity and then still decide, all right, let's work together. And then they had to all go out and knock on doors and meet people who were even more quirky. Right? So, going back to obviously a serious question, there is always, there's no way to avoid in this particular moment on this particular issue after so much blood has been spilled against the backdrop of this history. this history. It doesn't matter whether it's online or in person, there is going to be rage and anger and, and, and not just generational traumas, right? I mean, this is

century old stuff that's coming to the fore and you you've witnessed the kind of worst cruelty and tragedy that can befall people involving children and spouses and grandparents. And passions are going to be high. passions are going to be high. But what I will say is that if there's any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas, that what Hamas did was horrific

and there's no justification for it, and what is also true is that the occupation and what's happening to Palestinians is unbearable. And what is also true

is that there is a history of the Jewish people that may be dismissed unless your grandparents or your great-grandparents or your uncle or your aunt tell you stories about the madness of anti-Semitism. about the madness of anti-Semitism, and what is true is that there are people right now who are dying who have nothing to do with what Hamas did,

and what is true, right? I mean, we can go on for a while. And what is true. I mean we can go on for a while. And the problem with the social media and trying to tick tock. Activism and trying to debate this on that. Is you can't speak the truth. You can pretend to speak the truth.

You can speak one side of the truth. You can pretend to speak the truth. You can speak one side of the truth. And in some cases, you can try to maintain your moral innocence by virtue of just grabbing that slice of the truth. But that won't solve the problem. And so if you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth, and you then have to admit nobody's hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree. I look at this and I think back, what could I have done during my presidency

to move this forward as hard as I tried? I've got the scars to prove it. But there's a part of me that's still saying, well, was there something else I could have done? That's the conversation we should be having, not just looking backwards, but looking forward. And that can't happen if we are confining ourselves to our outrage. And even what I just said, which sounds very persuasive, still doesn't answer the fact of, all right, how do we prevent kids from being killed today? So, which is why in conversations that I've had with some of the young activists, I come with some humility and I say, look, I get why you might not want to look at history and context.

That's your primary concern. But the problem is, is that if you are dug in on that, well, the other side is dug in remembering the videos that Hamas took of what they did on 7th, and they're dug in too, which means we will not stop those kids from dying. So my advice to young people who want to get involved, I guess it's not possible anymore to download Meetup. Whatever it is. But

approximate that. I would rather see you out there talking to people including people who you disagree with. If you genuinely want to change this,

then you've got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it.

Because you can't save that child without their help. Not in this situation. So, all right. We went over time, didn't we? That zero's been on. You know, look, come on. You guys know me.

Don't bait me with a question like that and then think I'm going to. This is why I could never win these debates that's actually Dan's last question that's right you know I mean put a one on it that's alright

sir you you sat down with us on your last full day in the White House which is I'm, how you planned to celebrate the end of your presidency. I did. You did. And in that interview, you talked about how you saw your legacy. And you said that you wanted your legacy to be not necessarily the policies you passed, but what the people who got involved in politics through your campaigns, your administration, we're still doing years later to affect change. So here we are on the

15th anniversary of your election. Thousands of alumni are here. And I just wanted to close out here to get your reaction to what you see from what the people in this room are doing and how it makes you feel. I mean, I am beaming with pride. I'm listening to Jesse and Lauren. I've had a chance yesterday, obviously, I stopped by your drunken Bacchanal. I had a chance just now to speak to some of our senior team. And some of you have already heard this, but I'm going to repeat it because I just it bears repeating I actually

generally am not nostalgic as I am writing about the presidency as I think about the presidency as I look at current issues I tend to remember the mistakes I made and the doubts and questions I have

and the things I didn't get done. And I don't look at things through rose-colored glasses. I remember how hard every step of the way was um but as i as i just mentioned um the team the people the family the culture that we constructed that feels as true as anything in my life. And it was reflected on the campaign and it was reflected in the White House.

It was, as Michelle said, reflected in people in high profile positions in the West Wing and East Wing. It was reflected in people who were working out of the limelight in agencies and embassies. It was reflected by a bunch of kids dropped off in the middle of farms and communities that they had never imagined themselves being in. And yet somehow a bunch of 25 and some younger would persuade these communities

that we had a chance to be better and listen to each other and treat each other with respect. sustained itself across this many people and this is just a fraction of the people who were involved and that now is carried forward whether it's

somebody like Lauren in Congress or Deb Haaland, you know, suddenly goes to, you know, or it's somebody like Jesse or some of the folks you saw in the video who are, you know, in their own communities. are in their own communities, transforming the culture of those communities, and modeling that kindness and hard work and responsibility and consideration and openness to other people. openness to other people. That gets me choked up. That makes me proud.

And that is something that I think part of what sometimes all of us who were part of this struggle with is we know that's out there in the country. We can feel it. feel that in themselves and in their communities and in their neighborhoods they feel better than they do when they're angry and hateful and closed off and lonely and and feeling victimized. We know that. And so there's a part of us, I think, sometimes we just are... So often, what we're trying to figure out

is how can we remind people of that? Not any particular campaign, but the fact that that honest human response is available to us and will ultimately save us. That's why I'm so proud of all of you. That's the thing that doesn't get old and stays with me and keeps me going. President Obama, thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you for bringing us all together. And thank you for giving every single person in this room and countless others the chance to go on this journey with you. All right. Appreciate you guys. Love you. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari, writing support from Hallie Kiefer.

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