Pod Save America - “Biden up, Trump down, Covid rising.” (with Alyssa Mastromonaco!)

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

Alyssa Mastromonaco joins as a guest host to talk about the Covid resurgence, what Tuesday’s progressive primary victories mean for the Democratic Party, and Joe Biden’s commanding lead over Donald Trump in the battleground states. Then Jamaal Bowman talks to Tommy about his upset victory in the primary for New York’s 16th Congressional district.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. And with us today is Hysteria co-host and best friend of the pod, Alyssa Mastromonica. Hi, bros. Thanks for doing this, Alyssa. I wish everyone could see how I make you guys laugh when I say, hi, bros.

Guess what? They can, because it's on video. As you've said for over a decade, basically. I know. Forever. On today's show, Tommy talks to Jamal Bowman, who has declared an upset victory in the primary for New York's 16th congressional district. Before that, we'll talk about the frightening resurgence of the coronavirus pandemic, what the results of yesterday's primaries mean for the future of the Democratic Party, new polls that give Joe Biden a commanding lead over Donald Trump, and a preview of our new miniseries about the vice presidential selection process hosted by none other than Dan and Alyssa called That's the Ticket. Because that's the ticket. Because that's the ticket.

Also, check out Pod Save the World this week. The team worked very hard to make sure no one has to actually purchase John Bolton's book to learn what he had to say about Trump. You just have to listen to Tommy and Ben. They also talk about the climate crisis, escalating violence in Afghanistan, Chinese cyber attacks,

and Tommy interviewed Hamed Sanu, the lead singer of one of the biggest bands in the Middle East and an influential LGBTQ rights activist. All right, let's get to the news. I would say that COVID is back, but it actually never left. It's still the first wave. And on Tuesday, the U.S. recorded more than 35,000 new cases, the highest one day total since April 25th. This hasn't just been a surge in cases, but hospitalizations in states like Arizona, Florida, here in California, and especially Texas, where some hospitals in Houston are almost at capacity. Governor Greg Abbott, who started

reopening the state as early as April 29th and signed an executive order just on June 3rd that forbids cities from enforcing requirements that people wear masks, is now urging Texans to stay home and wear masks. And he also announced this morning that they are pausing reopening, though I don't know what that means since they're pretty damn open already. Alyssa, what's your reaction to this as someone who's been through the horrific wave that hit New York? I mean, of course this is happening. Like all the medical experts have said this was going to happen if people didn't wear their freaking masks and socially distance. And so people are, you know, in Texas, I think they've been going back to the gym for like over a month.

And so people are, you know, in Texas, I think they've been going back to the gym for like over a month. Why? Why? Why? People are using cans and rubber bands at home. Like just do that for a little while longer. But yeah, I mean, here in New York, it's still on the downward trajectory, but it's vigilant as hell here. I mean, when you walk around, it's like, you know, people forget, especially in like the more rural communities, that this is when people are harvesting their crops. And if you go to a store or anything, it is going to all of our stores around here. If one person gets sick in a store, the store has to close for two weeks. That's the rule here in New York.

So it's like nobody wants things to close back down again. We were closed down longer than anybody and had the biggest economic hit. And so I think everyone here, for the most part, except those assholes in New York City that they keep showing, is very much like, we're all in this together. And if we don't keep our masks on and stay distant, it's going to go tits up again. Dan, that's right. It's important. Tits up is an official WHO term for virus spread. It is. It's a military term for, you know, when the plane goes tits up. There you go.

Anything that's R plus one in infection rate is tits up. That's the chart. That's the chart. Dan, you and I have been under a shelter in place order since late March in a state that requires everyone to wear masks. So what's going on here? I mean, do Trump and Republican politicians deserve all the blame for what's going on? All of the blame? No. Most of the blame, yes. Look, this is a huge challenge under the best circumstances with the best leadership. And we're seeing that in California, where even as you begin to open up a little bit,

you continue to see virus spread. As the percentage of people who are going back to work goes up, you're going to see virus spread. And so it is not as simple as blue states good, red states bad, as we're living here in California. But the one thing that unites all of the states is that we are being led by an incredibly stupid person right now in the White House. And it's funny, and we sort of laugh about it, but it's a gigantic fucking problem. The president of the United States does not want to solve the problem. He wants to pretend like it does not exist. He models the wrong behavior. He creates political incentives for people likeegger to Pete Wilson, Republicans and Democrats encouraging people to wear masks. in an alternative universe where our president was someone who could think about something more than themselves for two fucking seconds, you could see a world where the president wore a mask. The

president got Obama, Bush, Carter, Clinton into the White House, and they all put masks on to model good behavior. Because this is really hard, but there's one thing that we know helps, and that's for people to put a piece of fucking cloth on their face. And the president, instead of encouraging people to do that, decided to make it some sort of weird cultural issue and has made the problem worse in this country. He is not solely responsible for what's happening, but he's a huge part of why there isn't enough testing, there isn't enough mask wearing. And a lot of this lies on him. And he should not just because something is happening in California, that it may also be happening in Texas does not mean that this is not largely about a massive failure at the federal government. I mean, public health is just as much about

education and communication as it is about policies, right? Like, as you're saying, like people need information and examples from leaders at the highest level of government. Like, as you're saying, like people need information and examples from leaders at the highest level of government. Like Eric Garcetti can go to the microphone every day and tell us all to wear masks. And for that matter, so can Gavin Newsom. They simply don't have the megaphone that the president United States has, you know. And like, you know, L.A. County is 10 million people. We're the biggest, most populous county in america like you walk around and a lot of people wearing masks but like in a lot of the fucking suburban counties in california they they didn't have mask requirements they just decided

not to they decided to open bars and restaurants you know which i also by the way just don't understand the message of we've had the message, stay home. Everyone stay home unless you need to go out. But we're opening bars and restaurants. Well, like, who the fuck's going to the bars and restaurants then if we're all supposed to be staying home? Why did you open them? Right? Like, I understand, like, outdoor restaurants.

I understand outdoor activities. I even understand, like, retail people can, like, run in and run out because you're not in there for a long time. Like, I sort of get all that with enough precautions and with mask wearing. But part of the problem we're seeing here is like a lot of these bar and restaurant owners and a lot of other businesses are having such a hard time in this economy. And they can't even count on Congress or Washington to do any like you could pay all the employees of restaurants and bars to stay home for as long as we need to, to make sure that we don't do this. They don't want to do that, right? Like Congress is broken. We have no leadership from Donald Trump.

He's decided to polarize the most important thing, which is wearing a mask and made that a fucking partisan issue, too, just like everything else. And people take cultural cues from the president of the United States. From the president of the United States. I mean, just here's how you know that the entire mask thing is just incredibly selfish bullshit, which is Donald Trump is doing a town hall with Sean Hannity, which Sean Hannity is one of the people out there yelling about masks and how it's an impingement of your freedom and all of this other bullshit. And at that town hall, people are going to be required to wear masks. Right. So it's a huge issue for politicians, but keep the virus away from the demagogues. I don't know. I don't know, Alyssa. It's bad. Well, and we know how bad this can be, right? So like, why do we want to go back there?

It's like the most selfish thing that people can do, even if the president is modeling horrible behavior. It's still like when you see people, and I don't know how it is where you guys live, but when you do see someone here who's not wearing their mask, they're not just not wearing a mask. It's like this, fuck you. They're walking around. They're like, fuck you. I don't have my mask on. And I was like, I have mine on, but you're the endangered person. So like, you're like the old person who was at risk. I'm going to be fine. But it is such a statement, right? When people don't have it on, because I just, I don't know. I just, I find it incredible and very upsetting. And here too, I don't, again, I don't know how it is by you guys, but restaurants were in phase three. Most of the States in phase three or phase four now and restaurants have opened, but no one is

doing indoor dining. Instead, New York has taken a lot of pages out of Paris and how Paris reopened safely. And they've blocked a lot of streets so that people, the restaurants can set up outside and be socially distanced and not, um, and not like endanger people so that people can start like getting out and about, but not be totally, totally at risk though. We still have not gone to eat anywhere because why? We, yeah, we, we, we've done the same thing in LA as we opened for a while. We just did outdoor eating, which is perfect for LA. I don't know why we just didn't stop there. Why do we need it to continue going inside, you know, to bars? Because, you know, the crowded settings are a problem.

So, you know, for Trump, it's not just about the mask. It's also about the testing. We talked about this on Monday's pod. But after the White House said that the president was joking when he said that he told his people to slow down the covid testing, Trump told reporters, quote, I don't kid. Let me just tell you. Let me make it clear. And that's exactly what he did when the federal government announced on Wednesday that they are ending support for 13 drive through coronavirus testing locations nationwide, including seven in Texas, the Texas that we just talked about. The Trump administration is also sitting on $14 billion of unused funding for coronavirus testing and contact tracing. So Democrats, Biden campaign, a couple super PACs are jumping all over Trump's testing comments with statements,

ads that are airing in swing states. How big of a deal would you guys treat this if you were on a campaign? I think people are treating it appropriately. There was without a doubt that Trump's response to the coronavirus is one of the reasons why his poll numbers are down, as we'll talk about later. And this is a very easily understood example. And it speaks not to just his failure to do enough testing. He admitted his actual reason for doing it was because it makes him look bad. So it fits right into the narrative we talk about all the time, which is Trump first,

America last. He is putting himself over what is best for the country. And so this is a way to drive that narrative in a way that is directly connected with what is happening in the country right now. And I also think it's notable that this is one of the first times, I think really in the last few months, where Democrats have been able to drive a narrative on Trump through their actions. They took a moment out of this, and they are driving it in the free press and in the paid media. Trump tends to put himself on his heels with his own stupidity. But here he said something, Democrats latched onto, and they drove that story for more than the 17 seconds that the normal Trump gaffe gets treated by the press. You guys know how I hate to politicize national health crises and disasters and stuff like

that. But this is literally like he is demonstrating how unfit he is. Because the one thing that I have not heard broken down by anyone really when he talks about this is that the testing is not driving up the numbers. Sick people are driving up the numbers. And the thing that I think is very interesting and I would like someone to do some research on is like the number of tests and how many sick people it's yielding. Because I think the problem is that the tests, if the tests were being given and everyone was coming out negative, they'd be praising the testing and being like, look how great we're doing. So the thing is, is that clearly

people are sick. Clearly there are hotspots that could be contained if people were tested. And so it's only June, right? The is, the chickens are all going to come home to roost before September, October, November. And you're going to have places like Texas and Florida where, you know, a city like Houston, I think Texas Medical Center, which is like the largest medical facility in the world is already at 97% capacity. Well, you could stop so much of this if you just put some protections and restrictions and pauses back in place. So it's, I don't know, it just, it's, it's, it actually, his strategy doesn't make any sense. It makes no sense. I mean, like, you're right. When you

test more, you find more cases because there's just more cases of coronavirus out there than we know. We've known that for a long time since the beginning of the pandemic. And in places where cases are rising right now, like Arizona, like Texas, it's still hard for a lot of people to get a test if they want to get a test. So what happens when you don't get a test if you want to get a test? You don't know if you're sick. You could spread it to more people. It's also the quality of testing, too, right? Like the White House has fucking those those rapid tests, right, that can that can tell you right away or there's tests that can tell you overnight, right? Like if we had deployed sort of that same rapid testing all across America, imagine what we could be doing if you could like take a

test and in five minutes know if you have coronavirus or not. People could going back to work people could start going out the economy could reopen more the fact that that infrastructure is not in place nor did trump even ever try to put it in place across the country is one of the big reasons we're in this fucking mess right now imagine if there were antibody tests that worked yeah right yeah that. But it's also not rocket science to figure out whether the number of cases going up is because of testing. It's algebra. Just divide.

There's something, let's figure out the rate. There is a rate. We look at it every single day and it is going up. And so like the entire conversation around this, it's insane. If you were just to try to explain to someone from another planet that in the middle of one of the most challenging periods in American history, that the president would just basically put on the mission accomplished banner and be done with it without ever actually trying to fix it in his election year while he was down in the polls.

It makes so little sense. It's hard to fathom just what a incredibly stupid period we're living in. Well, I think we can imagine what those people would say because the European Union is also saying it, which is like, hey, America, you suck. Stay in America. You're not welcome here. We're banned. We're banned from the European Union now. As someone said, we've become what Trump would refer to as a shithole country. I mean, no, Trump has looked at the polls that say that people don't approve of how he's handling the pandemic. And he's like, I know.

I just won't handle the pandemic. I'll just pretend it's not there. That's how I'll fix that poll number. I'm just going to pretend it's not around. That's how I'll fix that poll number. I'm just going to just going to pretend it's not around. That's how that's how he's that's how he's running right now. All right. Let's talk about the mini wave of progressive Democrats who did really well in Tuesday's New York and Kentucky primaries because of all the mail in ballots. Some of these races haven't been officially called. But here's what we know so far. In the New York 16th, former middle school principal Jamal Bowman has declared victory over 30-year congressman Elliot Engel, who had endorsements from Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Hillary Clinton. In the New York 12th, progressive challenger Siraj Patel is running neck and neck with longtime incumbent Carolyn Maloney.

In the New York 15th, Richie Torres has upset the very Trumpy, homophobic Ruben Diaz Sr. has upset the very Trumpy, homophobic Ruben Diaz Sr. And in the New York 17th, progressive activist and Obama Justice Department official Mondaire Jones is the apparent winner of a crowded primary to replace retiring Congresswoman Nita Lowey. If elected, Torres and Jones will become the first openly gay black members of Congress. And one last race we're watching in Kentucky

that is too close to call, the Senate primary between Amy McGrath, who had a massive financial advantage, and Charles Booker, who closed the gap in the final weeks with a surge of grassroots support. As of recording this pod, it looks like Charles Booker has taken a small lead as they start counting all the votes in Louisville,

but we are still waiting on that one. Alyssa, you have grown up in New York politics. You know a lot of these incumbents that went down, you've, you've, you've been around them for a while. How big of a deal are some of these underdog progressive victories? Well, it's a, it is a big deal, but it is also such a symbol of complacency on the part of the incumbents. Because if there's one thing that you could take away from AOC beating Joe Crowley last time around, it's that the fucking hustle matters, right?

The hustle matters. Being in the district, knowing what's going on, it all matters. And, you know, I don't think that Engel would have maybe faced such a fight if he had, like, come back to New York during the pandemic. You know, like like New York was ground zero. And, you know, I've heard him talk about it that, you know, their house in D.C. or Maryland, wherever it is, is bigger and it was easier for them to quarantine. Well, OK, I guess.

But like, where were you before that? And so I think that the one thing you see about all these folks, I mean, chairs of two big committees in the House are now like in a lot of fucking trouble. chairs of two big committees in the House are now like in a lot of fucking trouble. And, you know, it's just I think that I think it's it was hubris to not on all of their parts to not understand that AOC would nationally, but specifically in New York, in a budding counties was not a fucking it was not a blip. It was people want to see their elected officials actually working for them. And, It was people want to see their elected officials actually working for them. And, you know, I got called by every single one of those people who is in the lead now, basically. And I never heard from, you know, just the campaigns.

I didn't even get a text message from any of the other campaigns. So, you know, the hustle is real. Dan, Jamel Bowie had an interesting tweet about this. Jamel Bowie had an interesting tweet about this. He said, one way you can think of the intrademocratic divide is that it isn't ideological, but generational and not generational in an old versus young. But when did you form your ideas and impressions about partisan politics? He goes on to cite how Elizabeth Warren, who's 71, only came into politics, national politics over the last decade, which is one reason her style is closer to AOC than it is to Chuck Schumer. What do you think of that? I agree with that.

Jamel, as you would expect, made a similar point to what I've made in the past, but he made it more succinctly and more eloquently. The biggest part of the Democratic Party is not ideological. It's about democracy. And those who think that once Trump is gone, things will go back to normal are ones who understand that we have a much broader challenge before us, which I think is how you fall on that line, however you describe it, is based on when you came of age in politics. What were your defining political experiences? And if it happened in response to the Reagan

Revolution and the DLC theory of politics in the 90s, or they happened after Obama was elected, when you saw how the Republican Party became even further radicalized and went to extreme measures to defeat not just Barack Obama, but the political power of the Obama coalition, I think it says a lot. So I think that is the right sort of way to think about that divide. And I think, you know, you can see it not just in the policies that these people before, but like Mondaire Jones, for instance, ran on Supreme Court expansion. He has the support of Supreme Court expansion. And that is someone who understands that the obstacles to progressive power and policy continue even when Trump is gone because the way in which the Republicans have rigged the

Supreme Court. And so I think this is, Alyssa's right. The AOC primary was not just a specific one example of Joe Crowley being out of touch with this district. And she being a transcendent candidate, it's about a much bigger shift that's coming in the Democratic Party as the new generation takes forward. The sort of the Obama generation takes over in the post Obama generation, in fact, takes over for the remnants of what came before. stitch together a coalition of working class white and brown and black folks, especially in districts that are majority non-white, which many of these are. And, you know, Democratic politicians have probably used that message for a while. But what's making this different now is that the candidate themselves giving a message of multiracial populism is not white,

is largely black in these cases. But I do think that speaks to the future of what we can expect from the Democratic Party. And which brings me to sort of the big question here, like how does the Democratic party nominate diverse progressive leaders like aoc and jamal bowman and richie torres and then also nominate joe biden who fairly easily defeated the most diverse progressive field of candidates we've ever had what do you think anyone want to who wants to that? Seems like a real nut to crack, huh? I mean, I think, but I also think that this is sort of, again,

that politics being local, right? That people want someone who can set the country back on path, which is Joe Biden, that they know is going to just fix it from what it is now. And I think that these progressive sort of victories are very much candidates reflecting what their districts actually want and how things are changing. Like Engel's district is majority minority. And so now by Bowman actually, you know, representing them potentially,

they finally have a representative who reflects who they are, you know, representing them potentially, they finally have a representative who reflects who they are, you know? And so I think it's a difference between local people, what they want here and what they want in Washington. And I feel like they trust Joe Biden very much to fix what's broken-ish in D.C. Dan, what do you think? I think in some ways what's happening in New York is a preview of Democratic politics in 2022, 2024 and beyond. And when the Democratic presidential race was in many ways frozen in amber from 2016, where the lessons of that election drove everything, narratives about electability, which as we talk about all time, are steeped in racism and misogyny, drove that election. And it very well may be, and the polls certainly indicate it now, that Biden is incredibly electable.

But it was just a different occasion. Had this been an open primary, where you were not picking the person who was going to take on Donald Trump and particularly save us from actually what we're living through right fucking now, you would have a different approach and possibly a different result. But also part of it is that Biden may have been the establishment older white guy, but he won almost entirely on the backs of tremendous support from the African-American community. And so he's like, if you were a Democrat, you know, who's potentially looking at a primary down the line, the Biden formula potentially works for you, which is you can't lose touch with the base of

your party. And Biden, by whatever means he did it, and a lot of us were very skeptical of it throughout the entire primary, but he succeeded in maintaining rock solid and enthusiastic support from the most consistent voting bloc in the Democratic Party. One of the reasons, one of the big reasons the Democratic Party took a chance on a black man named Barack Hussein Obama, who was just a couple of years out of the Illinois state legislature in 2008, is because George W. Bush wasn't on the ballot anymore, as much as everyone didn't like George W. Bush. It was like you said, it was an open primary. And so the fear of another Bush term wasn't there. of another Bush term wasn't there. In 2020, Donald Trump and the fear of a second Trump turn has driven almost everything about this election, including ultimately what happened in the Democratic primary. And so what you had is a lot like, look, a lot of people, a lot of Democratic voters at the end of the day really liked Bernie Sanders, really liked Elizabeth Warren, really liked Kamala Harris, really liked, like, like we had a lot of very well-liked candidates. The problem was not like favorability. It's for, and for reasons, as you pointed out, Dan, you know, reasons of sort of like institutional sexism, racism, like people started voting because they were worried what other white voters in the Midwest might think. And they thought that Joe Biden might be the more electable candidate, including a lot of black voters in South Carolina and other states.

That is a dynamic that exists, I think, uniquely in 2020, that in 2022 and 2024 may not be there anymore if Trump is gone. And if Trump is gone and we go to 2024, I actually do think Democrats are much more likely, the Democratic electorate, to take a chance on a more progressive candidate, a candidate of color, a woman, a woman of color. Like, I think what we saw in New York, like you said, will be the Democratic Party nationally going forward. I think I agree with all of that. I do think we should not short shrift Joe Biden in one respect, which is these candidates won, as you said, by putting together a multi-generational, multiracial working class coalition. And I know it upends every fucking Twitter narrative, but that's what Joe Biden did to win. Well, I mean, he calls himself the bridge,

right? He said this many times. He sees himself as the bridge. And it's tough to do what Joe Biden did. Yeah. Right. Like the fact that he was able to win over every piece of the Democratic coalition, which now spans from young progressives in cities to like old white people in Wisconsin. It's a big fucking coalition right now. And we need it to be a big coalition in order to win an electoral college majority, unfortunately. And to be able to win that sort of that breadth is very tricky, I think. So you're right. I mean, Joe Biden gets a lot of credit for that. I laugh every time they talk about him being the bridge.

And when he talks about being the bridge, because the bridge on Sirius XM, the channel, is literally Joe Biden. It has got something for everyone. That's so funny. I've listened to that. It is. You can really just welcome it into your home. Just the bridge, the FX TV show a few years ago is not Joe Biden. show a few years ago is not Joe Biden. So we're now used to seeing in pretty blue districts, House districts, primary challengers knocking off an incumbent who are sort of younger and more progressive. We haven't seen it as much in play out. We just talked about nationally, but even in Senate races, we may be seeing it in Kentucky right now where Charles Booker

may be Amy McGrath, who's not an incumbent but is much more moderate than he is. Question, I guess, as we look to 2022, senators, incumbent Democratic senators

who are up in blue states that are going to be safely blue no matter what, what happens to them should should chuck schumer be worried in 2022 they better find their fucking hustle is what they better do i mean better get your butt back upstate what do you think dan i mean chuck schumer is clearly already worried um because when they asked him about whether he was supporting Elliot Engel, his congressional colleague for like three decades was like, who, who?

Engel? Is it Engel? Eli, I don't know. Haven't heard. Not familiar. I mean, like a few things I'd say though, is that running statewide in New York is different than running in a district in the Bronx and Queens. Right.

It just is. Chuck Schumer has never been known as someone who lacks hustle. I mean, he is someone who basically dedicated two years of his life in order to try to win every single county in New York for no reason. You don't get extra senatorial powers if you do that. Just I think it did. Alyssa, correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Chuck Schumer score a perfect score on the SAT twice? Yeah, I think that's correct. Yeah, I think he went back and took it again just to prove he could. So I think he's going to hustle.

He should be – you're going to see a lot of pressure on him. He's going to be the Democratic leader. lot of pressure on him. He's going to be the Democratic leader. If the Democrats take the Senate and the White House, he's going to be the Democratic leader pushing through legislation that is going to be potentially more moderate than a challenger would like. He's going to be under tremendous pressure from many people, including us, about the filibuster in that situation. And there will be a lot of challenges for Schumer, but he's not going to be caught off guard by this in ways that perhaps Engel and Joe Crowley were. But this is why primaries are good and the threat of a primary can be good, even if Chuck Schumer hangs on. If Chuck Schumer hangs on, then it's because Chuck Schumer did a good job for the people of New York, and they believe that he's progressive enough and fighting hard enough for them to return him to office.

And that probably means that when all of us and a bunch of progressives are pushing him on things like the filibuster, he's going to think, yeah, maybe I will get rid of the filibuster, because I don't want my ass beaten by AOC in a primary. Like Chris Coons from Delaware. No one's confusing Chris Coons as some progressive, right? And the other day he's talking about

if Joe Biden wins the presidency, yeah, we're not going to let Mitch McConnell block our agenda. Maybe we will get rid of the filibuster. One of the last people I would expect to have said that. I was like, yeah, I was very excited. Do you think he's heard the whisper campaign I started about my potential

Senate primary race in Delaware in 2022? I hope so. I hope so. You know, I'm going to run that race. But I do, you know, look, I mean, I know the DCCC has been all worried about this. They like blacklist consultants who work on primary challenger campaigns. I think that primary challenges are healthy in the Democratic Party. Right. Like and not it's not because I want every single challenger to win, but like the incumbents should should have they should be pressured. Right. They should like they should feel the heat and they should like you said, Alyssa, they should hustle. They should have to earn every fucking vote.

That blacklisting of the consultants was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. So dumb. So dumb. All right. So before we move on, I do want to talk about one Republican primary results in the race to fill the seat of former North Carolina Congressman Mark Meadows, who is now the White House chief of staff. Meadows, who is now the White House chief of staff. 24-year-old Madison Cawthorn beat Meadows' handpicked replacement, Linda Bennett, who was also endorsed by none other than Donald Trump himself. Dan, Cawthorn's win marks the third time that a Republican endorsed by Trump lost this cycle.

Is the spell broken? What's going on here? Yes. And that's a story I'm sticking to. Yes. And that's a story I'm sticking to. It is important to note that a lot of Donald Trump's ability to get the Republicans in Congress to cover up his crimes is based on their very real fears that if he endorses their opponent in a primary, they will lose, right? Like that's how we ended up, frankly, with some of the people bucking up coronavirus. That's how we ended up with Brian Kemp and Ryan DeSantis in Florida and Georgia. And if that fear erodes, you potentially could see Republicans having like a teeny tiny more willingness to speak out and try to save themselves in the short term. I don't really know what happened in this exact race. It seems like the guy who won was a much

better candidate than the person who lost. Mark Meadows is generally a doofus, so it's not surprising to me that he picked the wrong person to back. But if the mythology of Trump's hold over the party begins to erode in the minds of the only audience in which it matters, which is Republicans on the Hill, then that's a problem for him. So I think we should drive the fuck out of this neighborhood. Alyssa, do you think a bunch of Republicans are going to start fleeing from Donald Trump and not want to appear with him on stage? No, no, no, no. Of course not. Well, also, let's be clear.

This little also will this be the first member of Congress named Madison? Well, also, let's be clear, this little also will this be the first member of Congress named Madison? This is I mean, this kid is still very Trumpy. You know, it's not like it's not like he's some progressive Republican. So I think that, you know, they will distance themselves maybe from him like they won't use his name, but they're still doubling down on all the bullshit he believes. All right, let's talk about the polls. There's a lot of them out there right now. Just about all of them show Joe Biden opening up a commanding lead over Donald Trump. We are not talking about this to get you excited, to make you complacent, or to predict in any way what might happen in November. That is our disclaimer. I'm just going to keep repeating it from now until November. We are talking about

this to analyze where the race is right now and how that might affect each campaign strategy. We're going to use one of the highest quality polls in the country from the New York Times and Siena College. They were one of the only pollsters that had Trump leading in some battleground states right before 2016. They were closer to the 2018 midterm results than almost anyone else. And right now, nationally, they have Joe Biden up by 50 to 36 in the battleground states. He has an 11 point lead in Michigan and Wisconsin, a 10 point lead in Pennsylvania, a six point lead in Florida, a seven point lead in Arizona and a nine point lead in North Carolina. Alyssa, do these numbers make your stomach hurt a little bit? No, I mean, here's the problem.

You know that Trump thrives as an underdog and as a victim. So I just think this totally helps him. I mean look. Empirically is it bad? Sure. Poll numbers like this aren't great. But I do think that he really thrives. When he can go to everyone. On his campaign stops.

Where he's having rallies without masks. And being a super spreader. He can be like see. They're trying to fucking take it away from us again. I think that his narrative. He is someone who does well with this narrative. So we definitely can't be complacent. Dan, what do you think? My reaction to this was, you know, perhaps letting a plague loose on your people and

then tear gassing them just isn't popular. Maybe it's just not popular. I'm no pollster. I'm not an expert, but gut sense, not popular. I woke up at 530 this morning and somehow you and Ben Rhodes, who live like I do on the West Coast, had already been texting about this for 20 minutes, including some texts. I was up at 4.30 today. I can't sleep anymore.

I don't know what's wrong with me. You know what? It's practice. Yeah, I'm sleep training myself with dials. And you were saying some things that I thought were insane, like just for karma reasons alone. And I went looking at five 30 cause it's, I feel like it's my job to in life to take

whatever optimism, hopes and dreams you have and to find some recent history or data reason to crush them. So I opened up the New York times app and I read this poll and I could find none. who crush them. So I opened up the New York Times app and I read this poll and I could find none. They're like, Which should make us even more nervous.

Yeah, it's like, don't get me wrong. I am like, I can conjure up 700 ways in which this goes bad very quickly. But in this exact poll, in this moment, there is no good news for Trump.

There is none. At first, I was like, ha, I found something. 56% of people approve of Trump on the economy. That seems good. But if you're only getting 36% of the electorate, that's bad. That means they took the one thing they like about you, and they do not care. So yeah, Trump is in a very challenging and historically terrible place for an incumbent to be. Now, the caveats I would put here before anyone gets super excited is, one, Trump is going to try to steal this election through both legal, quasi-legal, and illegal means. So we should be ready for that. Two, when thinking of the national polls, we just have to remember that

because we have an incredibly ass-backwards system of government in America, we spot Trump four to five points. So a poll where he is winning by 10 nationally means he's five to six points away from being tied. And then even when you look at some of the numbers in here, this is going to inevitably narrow. Now, some changes, some pretty significant changes is how some percentage of the people feel about Trump. That narrowing is not enough to get them across the finish line, but this is going to get closer. And Trump only has to get it within

field goal range for the combination of the pandemic, voter suppression, and maybe Bill Barr to turn this from a Biden win into a Trump re-election? Yeah, I tried to do the pessimistic path to freaking out. And that path is the media wants a race. The media is going to be tired of this narrative very soon. There will be natural tightening in these polls because these at least maybe, maybe not. We don't know. But these are very big leads, especially in the battlegrounds. Right. I mean, you were talking national like we're seeing 11 point leads in battleground states. That's crazy. So as these narrow, it'll start looking like the race is tighter.

The press will take that as evidence that Joe Biden is fucking something up. There'll be a narrative that he's fucking up. Fucking up begets more fucking up. And then we also have like, you know, so they could try to frame his VP choice as a mistake. They could try to frame the convention as a dud. And now it's getting closer. He's got three debates to get through. Right. And also, we should remember that, you know, in the last

four months, we had a pandemic, a once in a generation recession and sort of and protests about racial injustice that we haven't seen since the late 60s in just the last four months. So who knows what the next four months is going to bring. But right now it is it's bad. I mean, I think the number in there that says more than anything else is 55 percent of registered voters in the battleground states say there is almost no chance they would support Donald Trump. Fifty five percent. This is like, I don't want to believe. I mean mean i just it's so hard to i mean i believe that i believe their their methodology is good but i just i i it's june you know it's june it's june and like it's almost like it's like he gets such a pass from everyone for being such a fucking malevolent moron that like you want to go to the battlegrounds, these people who still support him and be like,

if you acted at your job, the way he does at his, would you still have a job? Like the answer would be no. And so like, but that's been true for years now. So I just, I don't know.

I don't know. I'm, I'm glad that it's better. The numbers say that than the opposite, but you know, it's only June. I mean, just to give some perspective

of June, the distance between the Iowa caucus in which Joe Biden came in fourth and today is the same distance in time between today and the election. I know. That was so funny. Tommy just said that. Very fast math. I got that from Tommy. Oh, okay. Attribution. Just to nerd out for a second, I want to just dig into some of the numbers on who is driving this lead for Biden and what is driving the lead for Biden. On the who, and we talked about this a lot on The Wilderness, so Biden's winning by 17 points among people who didn't vote in 2016. So the new people who have come into the electorate since 16, which is sort of whether you've sort of marched or whether you've registered to vote for the first time, whether you hadn't paid attention, those people are in Biden's camp by 17 points. But check out the shifts in this poll among people who voted in 2016 because they asked them who they voted for. Trump beat Clinton by two points among people in these battlegrounds who voted in 2016 because they asked them who they voted for. Trump beat Clinton by two points among

people in these battlegrounds who voted in 2016. Biden's winning now by five, mainly because a bunch of younger college educated white voters have changed their mind. They went from Trump to Biden. And there's also a good number of older white voters without a college degree who've changed their mind as well, which is even wilder. And it looks like his margins among black and Latino voters are basically unchanged. Dan, were there any surprises there for you? I mean, the fact that Joe Biden is basically winning with white voters or tied with white voters is just a dramatic change. voters or tied with white voters is just a dramatic change. There is this sort of existential question that it hung over this election where, you know, we, as we've talked about before,

one of the reasons why everyone, ourselves included, got 2016 so wrong is that we made this assumption that the nadir for the party with white non-college voters would be Obama in 2012. And the assumption, at least at the beginning of the 2016 race, is that she would outperform Obama by at least a couple, if not more than that, which would give her the ability to turn some states like North Carolina that we could not win. And would certainly make up for whatever drop in African-American turnout was expected without Obama on the ticket. And there was this fear that the bottom was going to keep falling out among those voters. But that has not happened. And Joe Biden has both reconstituted elements of the Obama coalition and added onto it the voters who have moved in the post-Trump realignment after 2016. I think that is what goes for a lead that is that large, right? Is that he has sort of, he's brought in those, like when you talk about people who did not vote in 2016, that's not just new voters, that's also some portion of the 4 million Obama

2012 voters who did not vote in that election. So those people have come back into the process and they're supporting Joe Biden, right? on top of the people who have moved to Democrats in the suburbs or elsewhere. Alyssa, I also think I found why Trump's economic advantage is not translating into better poll numbers. Fifty five percent of battleground state voters say the government's priority should be to limit the spread of coronavirus, even if it hurts the economy, while just 35 percent say the government's priority should be to limit the spread of coronavirus, even if it hurts the economy, while just 35% say the government's priority should be to restart the economy. And that includes people who've been unemployed because of this crisis. And also this is right now he has his lowest approval rating for handling the coronavirus.

So, you know, I think that at some point people are like, You know, I think that at some point people are like, okay, so my friends have died. You know, I mean, like there are, there are no, there are, there are a few people who have not been impacted in some way, shape or form. And so I think that, you know, this is, and again, this is still the beginning of this pandemic. So that is something that does give me some hope because I don't think he's going to turn this pandemic ship around in time to change people's opinions on that. The other findings that I thought were very interesting had to do with the protests and

the Black Lives Matter movement. 63% of battleground voters say they'd rather back a presidential candidate who focuses on the cause of the protests, even when the protests go too far. While just 31% say they prefer to support a candidate who says we need to be tough on demonstrations that go too far. voters over 50 without a college degree in the battleground states still oppose the demonstrations, say that too many have turned to violent rioting, are split on whether discrimination against whites is as big a problem as discrimination against minorities. So the same cohort that you would imagine had these views in 2016 are still there having these views in 2020, but they're no longer enough to give Trump an advantage in these battleground states, primarily because younger white voters have views that are rapidly shifting on this,

partly because of the protests and Black Lives Matter and everything we've seen, not just over the last several weeks, but probably over the last several years. When you look at those numbers that you just laid out, what is pretty clear is that Trump has massively misplayed his hand at every juncture over the last few months. At any point where there is a choice between two approaches, he has chosen the wrong one, right? Where it is side with the protesters or side with the police, Trump chose the police. The public chose the protesters. It was side with keeping us safe from coronavirus or opening up the economy. Trump picked opening up the economy or those protesters, right? I guess maybe that's the perfect example is we've had two very prominent groups of protesters. We had millions of people who were in the streets

protesting systemic racism after the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and others. And then you had a small, tiny group of protesters, mostly carrying AR-15s, arguing for opening the economy in the middle of a pandemic. Trump picked that small group, not the big group. And that's what's reflected. Back the wrong horse, buddy. And I think that one of the reasons why that happened, other than the fact that Trump has

a long history of just being stupid, is that – And racist. And racist, right? Like, reflexive racism and inherent stupidity are his problems. And stupidity did not mix well together. Yes. But he is running to be the president of Fox News America, right? He doesn't understand that what he sees on Fox News is not what's happening in the country, right?

He, you know, when he watches Fox, I think he thinks he's looking out a window, but he's really looking in a mirror. And that has warped how he's approached all these things. And it was such a layup to do this, that public was yearning at the beginning of this pandemic for Trump to do the right thing, right? That's why they rallied to him

in his pro-reforms lineup at the beginning. If he had just worn a mask, gone and met with and worked with Cuomo and Newsom and Whitmer and tried to do the bare minimum of the job, the press and the public would have given him a ton of credit. Instead, he decided to do the exact opposite. And Nate Cohn talks about it in that poll. And the write-up of the poll is one of the places where he's hurting the most is Michigan. It's where his pandemic numbers are the worst among the battleground stage, which is not unrelated to the fact that he declared he did not want to give Michigan equipment and tests because Governor Whitmer was mean to him. That probably hurt him. That he better hope, Trump better hope statues can vote.

hurt him that he better hope trump better hope statues can vote that's it he's down to he's going to be down to just confederate statues that's it um those are going to be his precinct captains elise if you're on the biden campaign you're running the biden campaign what do you do over the next few months to press this advantage that he has in the polls right now to make sure that uh we're not sitting here in october they're like, what the fuck happened? Now he's losing. Well, I mean, they shouldn't believe the polls too much. That's step number one. And I think he just, you know, just kind of has to keep doing what he's doing, you know, being positive, showing connection to people. I mean, it's like when you see these ads every morning you wake up and there's a new ad on Twitter that you can watch 10 times and cry. And let's be clear, I'm very

critical of ads because, you know, I always think I could do better. But these are always, I mean, they are, and I think that they are so emotional because we have fallen so far that, you know, you're like, oh my God. But I would, you know, and as much as he can connect, keep like doing small things to connect with people, as things open up, I don't know if they will do events or not. But I mean, I just think let's just not do anything crazy, basically. Just, you know, stay healthy, man. Stay the course. Dan, what do you think?

Anything you do? I think he has an advantage right now. He should press it. And ultimately, Trump is going to decide that the only way he can win is to completely destroy Joe Biden. Now, that strategy may not work, but that is coming. And so take advantage of Trump's distraction right now to define yourself in the minds of voters. Because negative partisan – this race is right now a referendum. And maybe it will stay a referendum until the end.

But these things tend to default into being something more like a choice. And if you have – Biden now has the resources and the ability and the time and the credibility to shape how that choice plays itself out if it manifests itself at the end. And so I would be doing that by being out there by, you know, certainly running ads and really sort of using this is a huge opportunity to tell his story, both his personal story and his life and his governing experience story, you know, which there's some really good ads out from Unite the Country, the pro Joe Biden super PAC that connects what's happening now to the way he helped manage the stimulus with Obama in 2009, 2010. And like, I think that is a good first step, right?

Maybe you never need it, but because Trump can't get out of his own way, but you have the time now to do the work to prepare for the worst case scenario. So last question I want to ask you both is about how the current state of the race might affect Biden's VP selection, which also gives us an opportunity to talk about your new Pod Save America miniseries about the VP selection process. That's the ticket. You want to give everyone a little preview? Alyssa, give us a little preview. So this is just Pfeiffer and I. We are both going down memory lane for all of the things that we have seen. But then also, I think that Biden has said that he is going to choose a woman.

And so we have a lot of examples of both women, Geraldine Ferraro, first woman to be picked on the ticket, other women who have been in public office, Hillary Clinton, Shirley Chisholm, who was the first woman to run for president, how are they treated? What are the important things that he's going to be looking for? What is the vetting process like? How do you roll this out? How do you roll this out in a Zoom world? And who is he looking at and what sort of characteristics are potentially the most important to getting him across the finish line and keeping those polls where they are? Yes. Go ahead, Dan.

I was going to say, the vice presidential selection process is the most discussed and perhaps least understood part of presidential politics. The reporters covering it, the people obsessing about it on Twitter, don't fully understand how that process takes place. I often describe Alyssa as the foremost living expert on how that process takes place because she worked for John Kerry when he was on the shortlist in 2000 and was involved with him. Oh, I forgot about that. She helped lead that process for John Kerry in 2004 when he selected John Edwards,

which we will not hold against her, and then helped spearhead that process for Barack Obama in 2008 when he picked Joe Biden, for which we will give her full credit. And what we want to do is not say who Joe Biden is going to pick or even who he should pick, but is to help people understand how that process is playing itself out. What are they looking at? What is happening behind the scenes? how that process is playing itself out. What are they looking at? What is happening behind the scenes? And as Alyssa said, talk about how the pandemic has changed how that process works,

right? Where you're potentially making a decision over Zoom or rolling someone out over Zoom. And Alyssa has a gazillion great stories about all of the subterfuge and secrecy that goes into trying to keep this decision a surprise. And the first episode comes out tomorrow, Friday, June 26th. And it is, it was super fun to hang with Lisa as always,

but she, but she has some amazing stories about how uh, how John Kerry and Barack Obama went about, uh, making their selections in secret that includes everything from, you know, how the vetting process works, how you sneak people into meetings to how you warn John Kerry about, uh, some flatulent, uh, potential contenders. I'm so excited for this. And, and, and by the way, you can hear it right here on the Pod Save America feed. It's going to be right on this feed. So just check it out tomorrow.

One theory of the case on what the Biden campaign is thinking right now in terms of VP might be, OK, now we have this big lead that, you know, maybe internally they have this same numbers that the New York Times has. We have this big lead. Maybe we just need to not fuck things up, not take risks, be super cautious in our pick, make sure we don't make any waves with it. Do you think they might be, you guys have any thoughts on whether they might be thinking that or whether that's a good idea? I hope they don't overthink it. I mean, I think the most important thing is that whoever he picks, people can see a true chemistry with,

like that they are going to be a real team. And so, you know, if you sit there and really overthink it, like that's one thing I think that was interesting about the John Kerry selection versus the Barack Obama selection. There were so many more people involved in the

internal chit chat about who, what, when, where. Whereas I think Barack Obama just literally decided this is who my partner is. And I think that that's very successful. And so I think that he just needs to pick the person that he feels is going to be his partner. And that he doesn't listen to like 17 consultants tell him who's going to do better in fucking North Carolina because that's all bullshit and we know it. That's good advice, Alyssa. Thank you. I've done this before.

Don't listen to the 17 consultants. Listen to Alyssa. Dan, do you have any parting thoughts? Look, I think they should definitely play it safe. No one has ever lost a game by playing prevent defense. It has a 100% record of success. Just ask Super Bowl champions, the Atlanta Falcons and others. Look, in all seriousness, I think Joe Biden is going to put tremendous weight on who he wants to work with, right?

And who he thinks will be the right partner for him. Like we know from working with him, we know from what he said that his partnership with Barack Obama was so important to how that presidency worked, right? So he's going to want to try to get the same thing. And that is the thing that like that is a decision only he can make. That's gonna be based on his experience with the person, right? And how stable their Zoom connection is when they meet. Can they use Zoom? Right. So I think that's gonna be the driving factor. You know, the thing I hope that plays into that, right? If you're sort of like choosing between two people you have equally good chemistry with is that he is going to pick the person who is going to be the leader of the

party after Joe Biden, whether that's in four years or in eight years. And I hope that that is part of the process that, you know, he really is building the bridge to it to the future, like who that person is, I do not know the answer to, but I think one of the things we learned in the Obama administration is the president blots out a lot of the sun for other parts of the party. And so you need to elevate someone who is the potential future leader of the party. So I hope that's part of the calculus. All right. When we come back, we will have Tommy's interview with the winner of the New York 16th congressional district primary, Jamal Bowman. Jamal Bowman is a Democratic congressional candidate in New York's 16th congressional

district and the founder and principal of a public middle school in New York City. Jamal, thank you so much for doing the show. Oh, thank you for having me. Really appreciate being here. So you're running in New York's 16th congressional district. You are, I guess, still in the process of running against an incumbent Democrat named Elliot Engel. But as of when I was typing up this question, you are winning 61.8 percent to 34.9 percent, which is a good place to be. So first question is, how's the vibe today? How are you feeling?

Feeling good, man. Feeling good. Can't wait for the final votes to be counted so that we can, you know, declare victory 100%. I mean, right now, we're probably about, you know, 85% there. The numbers look great. It's just, it's exciting the way people like showed up and showed out for this election all across the district. You know, early on in the campaign, there were some questions about, you know, how we were doing Westchester and how we were doing Riverdale. And, but we did well in Riverdale. We did well in Westchester. I think at last count, we had a 29 point lead in the Bronx and a 25 point lead in Westchester. So people, you know, really responded to, you know, our message and, you know, our message was their message. You know, we pretty much just reiterated what I learned in education over 20 years and 10 years as a middle school principal and what people were telling us throughout the campaign, you know, housing justice, food justice,

fully funding our schools, you know, jobs, racial and economic equality. I mean, those are the issues we ran on. That's what we believe in. And that's why we think people turned out. So there's probably some listeners who are hearing you for the first time. Can you tell them a little bit about yourself? Like you are an educator and an education activist for a long time. What made you decide that this year you're going to take the plunge and you're going to actually run for Congress? Yeah. So born and raised on the Upper East Side, East Harlem section of Manhattan, raised by a single mom with my three sisters. Lived in public housing and rent-stabilized apartments with the public schools my entire life. Worked in public schools for 20 years. Was a teacher in the South Bronx for five or six years before becoming a dean of students for three years at the High School for Arts and Technology. for three years at the High School for Arts and Technology,

wrote a proposal for a new school, opened a new school in 2009, and did organizing work at that point to not just bring additional resources to the school, but change education policy in a way that really benefited children. Unfortunately, like so many public sector institutions or industries, privatization is something that we had to fight against in public school. So we pushed back against the expansion of charter schools, against standardized testing that was harmful to kids, and just looked to transform education in terms of focusing more on educating the whole child and providing a holistic approach to our schools. And just that experience and just seeing how, regardless how hard we worked in the school and how great work that we did there,

kids still had to go into communities that were neglected and under-resourced. And kids were still not a centerpiece to our political agenda. And as we spoke to people about Congressman Engel's representation or lack thereof, we continued to hear that he was absent and not engaged and they felt that it was time for a change. And that's when we decided to get into this race on June 2019. Yeah. And so like typically insurgent campaigns like yours rely on like worn out shoes and face to face, you know, field programs knocking doors. That must have changed a lot in the pandemic.

How did you adjust? And what strategies can Joe Biden or anybody else steal from you to turn people out? Because, I mean, look, it doesn't make me feel good inside when I see gigantic lines at the polls. That means that there's some sort of voter suppression happening, in my opinion, usually. But it did show enormous enthusiasm for you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to your point, we were, we did have worn out shoes prior to the pandemic. So we were hitting the ground very aggressively from June until March, early March. We canvassed

the entire district aggressively, but specifically the areas that Engel had ignored throughout his 30-year career. So we went to the housing projects and we stayed there throughout the campaign. We went to Co-op City. We went to parts of Yonkers and Mount Vernon and New Rochelle that just felt ignored. And we wanted them to know from the very beginning that we need you to be a part of this conversation, not just in terms of this election, but in terms of our democracy overall. Like your voice is the power that this district needs, and your voice needs to guide the policy that I'm going to take to Washington to support this district. So we did that early and often, and those relationships were deep. They were authentic. They were not transactional. And we

think that's why pivoting to a Zoom world was so much easier for us because we already did the work in terms of building relationships. And once we pivoted to Zoom, it was all about mutual aid. It was all about dealing with trauma and the stress of the moment, asking people, how are you doing? How are you feeling? How are you coping? What do you need? Is there anything we can do for you? Which led to us supporting, you know, local food pantries in Yonkers, Mount Vernon in the Bronx, supporting with the delivering of PPEs, and then having the conversation around, I'm running for Congress, you know, here's my background and story, you know, would you be interested in supporting us? And yeah, it seems so far seems to have worked out okay. Yes, it seems like it did. I mean, so it's an amazing story of sustaining momentum. And it makes me think about, you know, how in the wake of George Floyd's murder,

there has been so much more awareness and discussion and activism around police brutality and systemic racism. What's your advice to organizers, activists, people on the street for how to sustain that momentum? And then what do you think you can do about it in Congress when you get there? Yeah. So my advice is don't do it alone, you know, because this is this. There's a lot of wear and tear that goes into organizing and organizing is about building coalitions and relationships and connecting with people that you may not be accustomed to working with or building relationships with.

Secondly, you got to meet people where they are. You know, the people in Eden Wall Projects, for example, were so open to our conversations because no one had talked to them in 30 years. You know, no one had made them feel important or part of the process. When I get to Congress, my plan is an inside-outside strategy. All of the organizations, all of the grassroots organizations like Working Families Party, Make the Road Action, Community Voices Heard, The Jewish Vote, and many others, I'm going to continue to work with them because they've been doing the work on the ground with the people for decades, transforming policy at the state level and leveraging that energy

to write the right policy in Washington and building coalitions, even within Congress, whether it's the progressive caucus, the congressional black caucus, where, who historically have not been as progressive. It's about to hopefully about to change because of the energy we've been able to create throughout this campaign. So, so speaking of those coalitions, so your, your opponent, Elliot Engel chairs the house foreign affairs committee. So foreign policy got talked about more in this race than you might expect, including a couple million dollars worth of shitty, self-defeating ads that we'll never talk about again because the people who paid for those embarrassed themselves. But so a couple of weeks back, you were sent this letter by a guy named Rabbi Weiss about U.S. policy towards Israel. towards Israel. And if I'm being honest, the letter frustrated me so much because it was lots of guilt by association, lots of sort of whataboutisms about why you haven't denounced

this person or that activity, like valid issues. But I think that's a way to shut down debate rather than foster it. But what I really want to talk about is your response, because it was so gracious and thoughtful. And this line in particular jumped out at me as important, which was, quote, the rising tide of anti-Semitism in the United States is part of a rise in ethno-nationalism, authoritarianism around the world. In this country, white nationalists threaten Jews and black people alike with violence and terror. And it's just that is so true now. It is scary. It's historically true, right? Like David Duke was a Nazi and a Klansman, still is. true, right? Like David Duke was a Nazi and a Klansman, still is. How do you think we do a better job of preventing people like Donald Trump from dividing communities that he is also trying to marginalize? You know, I've spoken from the very beginning of this campaign about our collective struggle and our collective humanity. And I think the COVID pandemic really highlighted and provided a space where we were all dealing with collective trauma together.

And there was an opportunity, I think, to bridge the gap between race and class and differences, to have those conversations about our collective humanity, which is what we did throughout the campaign. And Rabbi Weiss's letter, though I agree with you in the tone of it, opened a door to dialogue. And it allowed me to share a response that was anchored in my experiences as a Black man in America.

I know what it feels like to, you know, just because of who you are, feel an existential threat from the space and the area in which you are living. And I think that that provided use this opportunity to come together and fight against what I think is a common enemy, which is ethno-nationalism, multinational corporations just looking to not just physically oppress us, but psychologically, emotionally, socially, and economically.

So it opened the door to begin a dialogue. And I think the beginning of that dialogue is not only how we defeat Trump, but how we make sure we never have another Donald Trump again in the White House. And we begin to tactically and systemically deal with issues of racism and anti-Semitism and understanding that they exist within institutions, not just in individuals. Like Donald Trump is a person, but he represents an ideology and institutional discrimination that is my job and all of our jobs to fight against. Yeah. There was this moment in your victory speech Tuesday night when you said,

you know what Donald Trump is more afraid of than anything else, a black man with power. And I love that because it is true. It is clearly true when he was looking at Barack Obama. Do you have thoughts on how you plan to use that power? Like, do you have you thought about committees you want to serve on? And then maybe more importantly, have you been invited to join the squad? invited to join the squad? The squad I thought was like a media thing. I didn't know there was like a squad caucus in Congress but I'm in contact with my sisters in the squad so you know I hopefully I look forward to working with with them and you know I haven't thought I have thought And, you know, I haven't thought, I have thought about committees, you know, education, obviously, is one I'm interested in, budget, maybe, but I'm pretty open to those conversations and what that's going to look like. And yeah, you know, in terms of leveraging that power, you know, the power of our voices is tremendous, right? And just continuing to lift up the power of my voice individually, but also the voices of my students and families that I've

worked with. Because it's all of those experiences that give me the passion and the energy and the purpose to take to Washington. Like I can't forget, you know, my PTA president who ended up homeless and had to live in a shelter in Queens and commute to the Bronx five days a week to go to school. I can't forget my student whose father was shot over the weekend, and because there weren't any mental health supports in the school system, we had to do our best job as a staff to support that student. You know, I can't forget the stories of my students and families.

They drive everything that I do personally. And it's uplifting those stories and our voices that's going to defeat Trump and people like Trump going forward. Yeah. So, I mean, look, I got into politics working for Barack Obama in 2004 and 2008. And like, I don't think I really realized

how lucky I was, right? I was like this young kid. I was wide-eyed and hopeful. And like every day was inspiring and it was like endless possibilities. And now you look at the news and it just, it sucks, right? Our president is a bigot. He's a bully. And I think the reason I got so excited about your campaign was it felt like an antidote to that, right? Like you have fun on the campaign trail, you goof around, you dance with kids. I think we saw you whip and nae nae at points on the trail. What advice for you to have for us who are like motivated by fear too often

and want to find more joy in this work? You know, once the negative ads started coming out against us, which, you know, unfortunately that's par for the course, you know, I started talking about the politics of fear versus the politics of love, right? And love sounds like this, you know, this gushy compassion, you're guided by empathy, you're guided by what connects us, which is joy and hope and faith. So for me, you know, if I'm not enjoying this process in some way, shape or form, you know, we're doing it wrong. Right. Because it's a privilege to be in this position where, you know, we have protests all over the country pushing back

against police brutality and institutional racism. And it's a privilege. And I'm very fortunate to be a candidate and hopefully congressional elect in this moment. And that brings joy to me. It brings joy to me to have that privilege. And joy is infectious. And if we can share our joy with each other, I think we can begin to shift the narrative and shift the conversation. We don't have to be driven by fear, even though Trump is atrocious. He doesn't have to dictate how we respond to the day-to-day realities of being in this country. We can respond to each other and to the world differently. And again, for me, I'm an educator. So everything starts with my kids. And despite going to

underfunded schools and despite being in under-resourced communities, our kids came to school every day with a passion for life and love and learning and each other. And there's no way that I can be depressed or fearful or angry when that drives me. And I also have a six-year-old daughter that I come home to every night. Like, I'm living a dream, man. You know what I'm saying? When you have kids and a daughter, I mean, it's like the best thing in the world. So as much as I can, and last thing I'll say is I've been blessed with an amazing team, you know, around us for this campaign who works tirelessly and they're brilliant and

they're united and they're driven by making the world a better place. So I'm just very fortunate. And I want to share that with everyone because I think that joy is reciprocal. Yeah, I do too. I mean, I think there's probably a lot of people who think about what a Congress person looks like or has done and thinks, oh, no, I didn't go to law school or I didn't run for the state Senate. And they think that somehow means they shouldn't do it. And I think the opposite is true, right? Like when I saw B-roll of AOC scooping ice in a bar, you realize, okay, that's a human being who can relate to other human beings on a level that is more fundamental, right? So I bet there's a lot of people listening right now who have thought about running for office or who want to run to office, but think,

I don't have that pedigree. I'm too scared. Like what advice do you have for them? I'm too scared. What advice do you have for them? Lean into the fear because it is scary because you're kind of putting yourself out there and you don't know what's going to come next. But when you lean into the fear, it's like, first of all, you learn so much about yourself and the process and then other people come along to help you out. And that's the big thing for me. I wouldn't be here without the support of everyone who believed in me personally and believed in this movement who came along to help me out. AOC is a great example because she's a leader for the working class person and the poor. And if there weren't an AOC, there wouldn't be a me in this situation. Because she broke through the glass ceiling in terms of centering the needs of those most disenfranchised and everything that she does.

She's that kind of leader and that kind of voice. And she created a space for someone like me to come along and, and, and do what I'm doing now. And, you know, I don't have a law degree, but I've worked in public education for 20 years.

And it's like, you know, what's the 50 cent line, you know, got a purple heart for war, but I ain't never left the city. You know, when you,

when you, when you in it and you doing the work, the work is the work, and the work is transferable. So in whatever industry anyone is working in, whatever job anyone has, Congress needs more sanitation workers, more nurses, more bartenders, more teachers, more principals. Congress needs more of that because then our policy will be rooted in the realities of everyday people. Yeah, agreed. Just sort of along those lines, like, you know, the Biden campaign's got a big decision coming up. They're going to pick a VP. Do you have thoughts on who that person should be, like their character, their values, and how they

or she can help inspire and turn out the base of the party? Yeah, I mean, they should, I think, share the values of, for lack of a better term, the progressive wing of the party, right? Rooting the values in the needs of working class people and the poor in this country and rooted in the understanding that we have to deal with institutional racism and sexism and classism in all its forms urgently and right now, not through incrementalism, not waiting for someone else to come along and get it done. Like, this is the moment in our history, which is why we released our reconstruction agenda. You know, we tried to reconstruct after the Civil War, but, you know, Klansmen and white supremacists burned it down. We tried to reconstruct after the civil rights movement, but mass incarceration occurred under Nixon and everyone after Nixon. This is our third chance at it, and targeting criminal justice reform, police reform,

and looking at institutional racism in every way it exists, we need someone to come in rooted in those values and understanding that lens very clearly and unapologetically, because as we did with this race, we need to galvanize everyone to be a part of our democracy. Because if not, Trump will win again, and there'll be more Trumps coming down the line. Yeah. Maybe even literally like his terrible son or daughter or one of those goobers. Literally. Absolutely. Let's not talk about it. This was a very hopeful interview. So last question. People listen to this. They think, I like this guy. I want to get involved. I want to help him out. Where should they go? What can they do to make sure you're in Congress?

Yes. So go to Bowman for Congress dot com. Learn more about, you know, my background and our platform there. Please click the donate button. And if you can donate a couple bucks to help us out, that's always huge. We have an amazing staff. I want to make sure that they can, you know, can pay their bills. So it helps us to do that. And right now, you know, we are, we're just waiting for the final votes to be counted. But it looks like, you know, we're going to be a congressional elect. And it looks like we'll be able to hit the ground running. But we still need tons of support. So please, like Bowman for Congress dot com, you know, share the Web site, share social media, support us in any way that you can, because this movement needs to continue to grow. This is just the beginning. We're not stopping now and we need everyone's support.

That's very well said. Everyone, check it out. Chippin' Five Bucks. Jamal Bowman, thank you so much for doing the show. Thank you for giving me a race to watch that makes me excited about politics and inspired to think about who's going to be in office next year. It's been great. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks to Jamal Bowman for joining us today and thanks Alyssa for riding along as uh as our co-host today this was fun I'm really glad I made the cut guys look I got to do two podcasts with Alyssa this week so you guys are never gonna get rid of me I have nothing to do but podcast with you and make jam, which hysteria listeners know. So call me up anytime. All right. Jam and podcast. Let's do it. Bye, guys. Bye.

Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kemp, who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.