Pod Save America - Can Democrats Fight Trump Without Being Defined by Him? (with Gov. JB Pritzker)

Episode Date: December 14, 2025

Governor JB Pritzker visits the studio to talk to Lovett about Trump's Indiana redistricting fail, how Illinois is standing up to ICE's immigration raids, and how the governor's upbringing — a childhood of both privilege and tragedy — shaped his career in politics. Plus, Lovett asks the governor to defend his controversial Star Wars film rankings, quizzes him on some blackjack hands, and asks what we're all thinking: Is he running for President? Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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that's simply safe.com slash crooked and lock in your discount there's no safe like simply safe Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett. I just wrapped a conversation with J.B. Pritzker. We covered a lot of ground. I really appreciated getting to talk to him. We talked about fighting back against Trump without getting defined by Trump. We talked about how our childhoods shape us, including how losses in his own life shaped him and the difference between having money and having values and coming from a wealthy family, while. advocating for progressive causes. We talked about Star Wars and Andor and the ways in which it is relevant and inspiring to us now. We went back and forth on some Star Trek movies. We talked about gambling as a man after my own heart. It was a great conversation.

I really like getting a chance to talk with him. I think you'll like it too. So here it is. Welcome back to the pod. Governor J.B. Prisker, good to see ya. Great to see you. you, John. So back in October, you and Governor Gavin Newsom threatened to leave the National Governance Association when the government refused to put out any kind of bipartisan statement

in opposition to the ways in which Trump was deploying National Guard without the permission of governors a couple months later. I did notice that just this week, the association did put out a statement not wanting the National Guard assigned without governor's permission to the space force. I have not seen any other statement. Where are we with the bipartisan governors on defending your prerogatives? Well, I'll remind you that back in 2024, there was actually moved by Biden to deploy the National Guard for the Space Force. And Greg Abbott and the rest of the Republicans and Democrats, too, is unanimous, in fact, including me, said this is an improper use of the National Guard by the federal government, federalizing them for the Space Force. So, you know, that was the feeling of Republicans and Democrats in 2024.

Donald Trump gets elected and all of a sudden Greg Abbott is standing there, you know, saying essentially, no, it's fine for the president to federalize troops and send them into American cities or use them for other purposes. And this is like the story of the Trump administration, of course, is where all the Republicans have caved entirely and they're willing to contradict themselves. a year later. So where we stand now is that, I mean, I have the same position that I had a year ago, but clearly Greg Abbott and other Republicans don't. There have been a couple of Republicans. I want to give some credit here because Governor Stitt from Oklahoma, Governor Scott from Vermont, both came out and said, well, Stitt in particular, said, like, you know, we wouldn't want Pritzker sending his National Guard into Oklahoma. Right. And, you know, and Scott similarly criticized the federalizing of these troops for the purposes the president was using them for. And so, look, I mean,

there are Republicans who agree on state's rights, but remember that when they were the state's rights party? And now, you know, it's just that everybody's caved and they've all become collaborators. Yeah, well, there's been this interesting hinge point around Indiana where these Indiana Republicans have really stood up to Trump in a, big way this week. And it does seem like the more pressure and threats coming from the administration and its allies, the more they dug in their heels, a heritage action, which is, was once, to your point, something that's a claim to advocate for conservative principles put out a post saying that the administration would cut off all federal funding to Indiana if these Republicans didn't go

along. And it seems like that mattered here. And I'm wondering if, Indiana Republicans standing up to Trump is important for what happens going forward among other Republicans. If you're hearing from other governors about the ways in which, wow, we didn't think they were going to come after us. We thought this was just something fun that Trump would do to Democrats. You know, I think it's an indicator of the spell is beginning to break. I wouldn't say that, you know, we've seen a real, not to turn a phrase, but turning point. I think what we're seeing is that, you know, Marjorie Taylor Green and, you know, Thomas Massey and others who are beginning to show some independence. Now you've seen Indiana Republicans, you know, who are just, these are mainstream conservatives, typically, who gave in for a while to Donald Trump.

And now we're saying, you know, this isn't working for us anymore because they gave in because they felt threatened. Yeah. Now the threats are offensive to them. And I think that's what really led them in the end. Now, I'll take a little bit of credit because we've said in Illinois, if Indiana goes and changes their districting, redistricts, we're going to have to do it in Illinois. And I think just holding that out, again, small amount of credit I'll take for, I think we've held out the idea that we're going to invalidate what you do in Indiana.

Why would you even bother doing it? And that's been the point of doing it. If we have to, we will. But I want to give credit where credit is due. There's one particular senator whose name, I think Bray, may have in his name, who expressed kind of outrage at the things that Trump was doing that made him want to say, you know, I'm not going to do this. This is, you know, one, you know, step too far. And many others stepped up. You heard some of the debate.

I listened to some of it live yesterday. you heard some of the debate and people are getting threatened, their lives were being threatened. And by the way, by people from outside of Indiana, turning point action was, you know, involved. And I think they just felt like, you know, who's your way of life? The Midwestern way of life is being attacked by outsiders and, you know, their traditional conservative values are under attack. So I give them a lot of credit. I mean, 3119, that's quite a loss for the president. So I do think it's an indication of something that's been slowly creeping forward, which is the unpopularity of Donald Trump is beginning to affect whether people are still struck by the fear of Donald Trump.

So is Illinois standing down on the redistricting now that Indiana has backed off or is there some party that's like, well, we should we should just do it anyway. Why not? Other states have done gerrymanders. We should get in a couple extra votes in the house. I want to be clear that I don't like, you know, mid-decade redistricting. I think this is, it's, you know, it's traditionally not done. It shouldn't be done for the purposes that Donald Trump is using them for. So I'm, you know, genuinely opposed to the idea of doing it.

I also see that our democracy is under threat and that if you had an election now, and I believe next November, that Democrats will win the Congress, fair and square with the districts that exist and have existed since 21. And so there shouldn't be a reason to do this. But if Donald Trump is going to cheat, and that's what he's doing, right, it's what he is doing and has done in Texas.

It's what he has done, you know, across the country, Missouri. You know, we're working on a helping with the referendum in Missouri, hoping that the referendum will succeed. This would be to stop the redistricting in Missouri. But I think it's been an important thing. And I'll give Hakeem Jeffrey some credit here. He talked early on about pairing states, you know, about Maryland saying to Missouri, like,

if you're going to do it, we're going to do it. Indiana and Illinois. If you're going to do it, we're going to do it. Because it's a reminder to everybody that, you know, this is a, you're going to, why do this? In the end, you're going to get nullified either way. So, you know, I think it's been an effective strategy. And, again, I don't want to change the districting in mid, mid decade in Illinois, but I will if we have to. Yeah.

So is there any specific event that would sort of turn on the Illinois redistricting, like any, some kind of cheating you're talking about? I think I'll know it when I see it. But I think, you know, we're prepared. Again, it's about kind of evaluating how much is democracy under threat by what, Donald Trump is doing with regard to redistricting. And that's kind of the way that we're viewing it. I'm so glad that here in California that the redistricting referendum passed, I supported it financially and supported it otherwise. And it's a great thing because of what Texas did. But we tried to prevent it. You know, we housed the state legislators from Texas in Illinois when they

were trying to break the, when they were, you know, breaking the quorum. And I was proud to be able to do that. And so, look, we're going to do what's necessary to protect democracy. So you also signed a bill into law this week or in the last week that seeks to restrict some of the more draconian immigration enforcement efforts at courthouses. And on the one hand, Trump promised to go after the worst of the worst. When he's not doing that, it is not just the right thing to do, but good politics. He's not popular enforcement measures against people just trying to earn a living. On the other hand, been in this sort of political tit for tat with Trump. Trump does this. You speak out against it rightfully. He criticized, he threatens to throw

you in jail. We end up in this loop and you're fighting to do what's right. But it's also very reactive. You have to be reactive to what Trump is doing. And I'm wondering what you imagine the democratic vision is for immigration post-Trump? What is our view on enforcement, the border, path to citizenship in a world where we're moving past him? Well, I suppose I shouldn't claim that I'm speaking for the Democratic Party when I tell you what my reaction is and what we ought to do about immigration in the United States. I'll just speak for myself. I think we should have strong borders. I think that we got to, you know, you don't have a country if you don't have a border that you're protecting. But I also think that we ought to have a lot of immigration

and we should do it where we're actually allowing into the country. The very people, by the way, many of them that Donald Trump is now attacking and throwing out of the country. These are hard. I'm talking about the people who've been here for five, 10, 20 years, hardworking, raising families, paying taxes, law abiding, right? All of those folks. And people who are undocumented, right? Those are the very people you'd want to have come into the country if you had a proper immigration policy. Right. And so we ought to fix it so that we actually are doing that. And giving people who are here, who I get, some of them, by the way, have broken the law because they cross the border without permission, but also some who overstayed a visa and are here

undocumented, that we ought to have a path for those folks to stay. We can all have a debate about whether they should become citizens or legal residents or what the status should be, but you don't want to throw out the people who are law-abiding, taxpaying, and holding down jobs and doing the right thing. What we want to do, I believe, is truly get violent criminals who are undocumented out of this country. I absolutely believe that. I thought, I think if they've been caught and they've been convicted, they should be in our prisons. I don't want them released outside the country as if like they're getting rewarded almost, right? If they're caught and they're, and they're being convicted, we ought to hold them in our prisons and they ought to be punished. But, but that's

2.6 percent of the people who were detained in Illinois were people who had committed a violation. Island crime, 2.6%. I'm glad all of them were caught. But what about the other, you know, 97.4% of people that were that were stopped, right? So remember, and many of those people also, I should point out, were U.S. citizens and legal residents. It wasn't just undocumented people, the other 94.7%. You know, this is this is a huge problem of, you know, a breach of habeas corpus of due process. And I, I, I, I, I, I I'm very worried. This is the attack on democracy or the beginning of the attack on democracy that I think all of us should be reactive to right now. And our policy as Democrats ought to be, we don't think you should be kidnapped off the street and disappeared. That you do process is very important to people. And that the people who should be caught and held criminally liable very first and foremost are the violent criminals and not people who are just doing the right thing who happen to be here undocumented. Yeah, it seems like, you know, there was this moment where Democrats were trying to appeal to Hispanics or trying to appeal to the left and became really uncomfortable talking about immigration enforcement or border enforcement. But it does seem to me that any, if you want a generous immigration policy in this country, really generous where we are welcoming people to, and kind of. building a bigger country, that will be hand-in-hand with enforcement. It has to. A secure border rules that are actually enforced. Have you thought about what that would look like in a world in which we've watched the Trump administration turn ICE and the border patrol into this kind of radicalized

agency? Do you need to start over? Do you need to rethink enforcement? Do you think, how do you, What happens? No, the way they're doing it now is just dead wrong. I mean, and I believe unconstitutional. I mean, marching people in uniforms in automatic weapons through our major cities where they're mostly just stopping people for being black and brown, not because they're actually undocumented or of committed crimes. You know, that's clearly something that all of us ought to stand up against. And we lived through that.

As you know, we are living through it now. It hasn't ended in Chicago, right? They've diminished a few of the people. They've taken them and moved them on to Charlotte and now to New Orleans. But I want, you know, we should step back just for a moment and remind each other and your audience, why is immigration important for the United States? First of all, we're a nation mostly of immigrants. That is who we are, fundamentally at our core. And we ought to always be that.

It's what's made our country great. in many ways already. And, I mean, I can say my own family, I don't know your history, but my own family came here as refugees, would have been killed in Ukraine if they hadn't been allowed to come to the United States. And they came in with nothing. Immigrants are the most entrepreneurial. Immigrants are the most grateful and patriotic because of what the United States

represents to them and what they had to leave. behind and chose to leave behind to come to. And then, let's face it, the economy of the United States is dependent on immigrants. For a variety of reasons, let me tell you the biggest one, aside from it, you know, people like to say, you know, well, there are jobs that immigrants will take that other people. Actually, the bigger reason is, you know, when you look at the Fortune 500, the largest companies in the United States, nearly half of those companies were founded by immigrants or the first generation children of immigrants. Half. So the economy of our country, I mean, putting aside the jobs that people will take and the taxes that people pay and so on

is dependent about because of the entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial nature of people who come to this country grateful and patriotic in the way that I think all of us want. Last thing I say just about this, again, it's the economy that I'm, I've most want to focus on in this comment, you know, in a world where we've seen birth rates in most developed countries drop significantly, immigration is perhaps the greatest benefit that you can have for a country. But when you think about all the economies that we compete against in the world, and I'll pick, for example, China and Japan, they don't do immigration in either of those places. And as their population growth diminishes, and therefore their economy diminishes,

they really can't do what we can do. We are a nation who knows immigration. You can walk down the street here or in Chicago or in most places in our country. You'll hear somebody speaking a language that maybe you didn't recognize or with an accent that you don't recognize or who don't look like you. And we all, I mean, most of us have come to accept that that's who we are as a My entire life, I'm 60 years old. I accept this is who we are, not just accept. I welcome it. I think that's what the United States ought to be.

And we're the country most able to accept immigrants and integrate them and take advantage of their entrepreneurial nature. Many immigrants become, by the way, members of the military. So I'm just trying to point out that we have a potential economic advantage in a world that is fast-changing. and in which birth rates are dropping that other of our competitor nations in the world don't have, and we ought to take full advantage of it. Pazade of America is brought to you by PolicyGenius.

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slash crooked. On that question of the economy, right now we got people who think Trump is failing to make life more affordable, his dismal approval on the economy. People have gotten the impression that he's distracted by all these other issues. I don't know where they're getting that impression from. But they're not ready to trust Democrats. One recent poll that among voters who care most about the cost of living, it's still 50-50 with Republicans, in part because, yes, some of the people that swung to Trump in 2024 are swinging back. But there's a lot of independence, especially some white moderates who just don't trust the Democratic Party on this issue, even though it's

their most important issue. What is the argument we should be making? What is the story we're not telling why are we struggling so much to make an argument on affordability to people? Well, I believe Republicans have helped to define Democrats and we've let them do it, right, that we ought to be reminding everybody what fundamentally why I, for example, became a Democrat. Why do we believe in the party? What is it about being a Democrat that's different than being a Republican? And I believe that's because we're the party of the working class. It's because we're the party that really believes that everybody ought to have an opportunity, not just white, wealthy people.

And that we, you know, we're creating opportunity for people, creating a path for people to do better in their lives and for their children to do better. That's who we are in the end fundamentally. And that when people are suffering, that the government is there to create, you know, as many people have now described, used to say safety net, but I would just say strong floor. And I believe that the Republicans could give a darn about that. And so when you talk about, I know affordability is maybe the most important thing on people's minds. I don't really like the word because I don't think it describes everything that's about economics for people. But it is true that things have become less affordable for people, in part because their incomes aren't rising fast enough.

And that's another thing I want to say is, you know, when we talk about affordability, we're all talking about let's bring down electric rates. Let's, you know, make sure we do everything we can to at least stop grocery prices from going up or maybe to drop them. And Donald Trump's doing nothing to help. In fact, he's doing, he's doing the opposite, right? Literally tariffs have, have, and his policy on electricity production generation has raised prices for people. But, but, you know, but we also ought to be talking. about putting money into people's pockets. You know, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25. $7.25. $14,000 a year. You cannot survive as a single person on $14,000 a year holding down a job. Holding two jobs, you can barely survive and certainly not raising a family, two jobs earning the minimum wage. Why are we holding on to a $7.25 minimum wage? And I want to make another point to you, which is, We Democrats, you never heard that in 24, did you? You didn't hear anybody in the 24 presidential election talking about, I'm talking about the presidential candidates or really any of the major candidates running for major offices around the country about let's raise the minimum

wage. What a huge mistake. Putting money in people's pockets is the best way to make things more affordable. And we can all debate. You know, I look at, we can all debate how much the minimum wage ought to be. Some people would say $11 or $12. Some people, 15, some will say $25. You can all have that debate. But, you know, if you ask members of Congress who are Republicans, do you believe in raising the minimum wage, every single one of them will say no. And some of them, many of them, probably 40 percent, would say we shouldn't have a minimum wage. If you ask every Democrat, should we raise the minimum wage, every Democrat thinks we should raise the minimum wage.

Again, they'll have difference of opinions about how much. Why are we not talking about that? because you know what, the vast majority of the American public, about 80% thinks we ought to raise the minimum wage. And we Democrats believe in that. We're the ones who created the minimum wage, for goodness sakes. So you asked the question, why aren't we? But what, what do you think we were missing in 2024? We let the Republicans put the issues up front and then we responded to them. That is what happened in 2024. And I think it's happened to us too often over the last decade. And that, again, we've got to remind people we're the party that

in universal health care, that we're the ones who created Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security, and that we believe in protecting people's rights, their civil rights, their voting rights. Those are all things that are very popular in the country. And that we're the party that can most easily, because of our fundamental values as Democrats, address what I think is coming, which is a wave of unemployment as a result of artificial intelligence. We're the ones who are best able to and willing to come up with policies to address how are people going to survive in a world where perhaps there are jobs that aren't available to your son or daughter that's graduating from college when they thought there would be. I'll give you a stat that you

may not have heard, but I just heard it the other day that the unemployment rate among recent college graduates has doubled from June to now. Doubled. And, And there's a reason. And you're already hearing, right, about AI having an impact on hiring. I was just with a group of business people listening to them. And they said specifically hiring slowing, even the ones that are growing hiring, slowing down because we don't need as many people because of AI. This isn't going to be an issue for, it's not so much in 26 because I don't think it's

in the consciousness of most people. But I do believe that in 28, it's going to be a very, very important issue. And we've got to ask ourselves, which party is more focused on what's best for people who need to find a job, best for people who are going to be left out in an economy where AI is going to make their jobs obsolete? Which party wants to address that more? Which party more believes in that? And it's Democrats. Clearly, Republicans have created this environment, aren't thinking a wit about it, encouraging AI at all costs. By the way, I believe in AI.

I think it's a very good thing for efficiency. I think it's a very good thing for developing new drugs, for health care, et cetera. I think it's something we ought to encourage, but we've got to figure out how we're going to deal with the unemployment that may come as a result of AI. Yeah, I mean, well, you say, like, you know, Democrats are better suited to addressing this. I agree with you, obviously. But then when you mentioned health care, you know, I know what the Democratic position is right now on, say, extending Obamacare subsidies. But I often feel as though I know where the left wing of the party is on a lot of these issues in terms of a vision for the future. I know what Mum Donnie believes.

I know what Bernie Sanders and AOC believes. They're very clear about what they'd want to do about health care. I often feel like the people outside of the left flank aren't clear about what their vision is for a better health care system, aren't clear about what we would do about AI. They criticize it. But like, I've just, just, okay. we're going to have a bunch of people who might not be getting entry-level jobs because people are able to use a big language model to do that job and say, what do we do? What happens?

What's the bad, you know, to have all the answers, but what are we going to do? Millions of young people suddenly entry-level jobs are disappearing. What happens? Well, again, I start with which party is more capable of addressing it? And then I'll go to. Yeah, I agree with you. just, I'll just throw some ideas that have been, that have been out there for a while. I'm not suggesting one or another yet about what we ought to do. And, you know, we're thinking about it,

certainly on the state level as governor of Illinois. But I'll give you an example. You heard, you know, before Elon Musk became a, you know, a, I don't know, a populist right wing, selfish, you know, player, he talked a lot about universal basic income. That's one answer. to a question like this, what are you going to do when people are unemployed and how are they going to survive in a world where there's so much efficiency that they don't need workers? Another is, you know, I believe in the dignity of work and how important that is to people and that, you know, there was a time when in the days of FDR when we had to put people to work and there were programs that were hugely beneficial, we're still benefiting in many ways

from the things that they were doing in the works progress administration back in the 30s to come out of the Great Depression. But, you know, the question is like, do we want to build more infrastructure? If so, shouldn't we be doing something to make sure we're bringing more people into trades and giving them the education that's required for that? And building that infrastructure. This is not just a Biden infrastructure program kind of discussion. This is like, do we actually have the ability to execute?

on those projects, and do we have the people who can build them? And the government needs to speed it up, for goodness sakes, right? We've got to deliver on jobs to people and their incomes associated with the dignity of that work. So those are two examples of ways that one can address AI. I also think that there's an entrepreneurial bent that comes from new technology whenever it's introduced. We saw this and a lot of worry about the introduction of the Internet. Way back when. You may not remember it, but I do based on the age.

That's very sweet of you, sorry. But, you know, but a lot of worry, right? And yet you saw a lot of entrepreneurial endeavors that led to job creation as a result of the advent of the Internet, even though people are like, oh, my God, the shops are going to close and everything's going to change and what are going to happen to the job. AI has the potential to give us that, except it's hyper-efficient and it's happening way faster than the Internet did. And so, again, that dislocation is what I think we all need to be focused on about how to address it. But, you know, we're not going to stop AI. We can't stop it and shouldn't. We're not going to become Luddites so that we can keep people, give them jobs.

Because, by the way, we live in an international economy. We're competing internationally. China's not going to stop the development of AI. I just want to say no bad ideas in a brainstorm. So I'm saying, let's have the Luddite option, Luddite option on the table. I'm just like, well, you know, I think, look, your thing. threatened in Indiana to make sure they don't do, don't do gerrymandering. I'm saying a couple pitchforks outside of Sam Altman's offices once in a while. I just, no, just saying,

hey, we're here. Hey, just keep an eye on that. I thought that's what Dario is doing. So I, you know, anyway, I do think that, that this is something that's, that, again, it isn't that Democrats have the policy and so, and I would also point out, I do not, you know, being a Democrat as being part of a club of people who have similar sets of values, right? just like it's being a Republican. But I also think that there are entrepreneurs within those clubs, so to speak, within the parties, who emerge with ideas that will make a difference and that become the party's policy, right? Because they're good ideas and because they believe that person can carry them out.

And that's why, you know, a lot of times, as people have expressed, as you did a little earlier, dismay about, you know, why are Democrats not viewed as having your, why are Democrats not succeeding and what's our policy, that what's our new set of our new message and our new policy? And, you know, and I'm all for like contemplating that all the time, always making it better and better. But the failure that we've had is not that we haven't had good policies. It's that we've let the Republicans throw issues in front of us. And then we run into a corner chasing that issue, trying to defend ourselves about that issue, when we should be sticking to our guns about what we think is important. And I'll again go back to the minimum wage. Nobody talked

about that. Why are we not putting that out front and fighting for a higher minimum wage? What's the most signal, what's the best example of that kind of chasing Republican? What comes to your mind is like, oh, if I need an example of that, this is where I think we got that wrong. Well, I'll give a couple examples. One is this idea that mom, Donnie is the, you know, is the future of the Democratic Party. All due respect to Democratic Socialists, and I respect the campaign that he ran in New York just as a technician, you know. I mean, the politics of his campaign were kind of amazing, but he didn't win because he's a Democratic socialist, if you ask me. He ran because, you know, the opposition to that, at least among Democrats, was somebody who's hyper flawed.

Yeah. you know, and didn't, you know, and even if you thought, well, those are traditional Democratic values that he held, not somebody who has been accused of sexual assault and, you know, someone who's got the reputation that he had. And so, you know, like that is, that is even, you know, whatever your views are within the Democratic Party, you have to admire the idea that Mamdani ran a really, really good campaign. And his opposition was incredibly flawed. So, I think, you know, we kind of, we get stuck. Now, Mom Dani is like, oh, that's who Democrats are.

And I remind everybody, even Democrats are worried, you know, that like there are Democrats in the center left, right, who, who worry that the party is now Mamdani. Our party has always been a pretty broad spectrum, always, always. I know that Bernie Sanders really made it, you know, stark for everybody to pay attention to, and Democratic socialists have made it stark, but it's always been there. And the reality is that we are always trying to bridge the, just like on the Republican side, they have typically, now they're in a cult. But typically they've had the same kind of division, right? You've had what used to be called the country club economic Republicans, and you had the cultural conservative Republicans, and they would fight it out with one another because they had slightly different beliefs.

Same thing on the Democratic side. But we have a fundamental set of values that I think are very common, you know, from one. end of the spectrum to the other. And I think it doesn't. Our divisions are no different really than they ever have been. And I don't think we should let the Republicans, you know, remember the same day that Mamdani got elected, Abigail Spanberger got elected and Mikey Sherrill got elected. And I would not describe them as being from the same wing of the party, let's say, as Mamdani. But we let somehow, we let the Republicans voice this thing on us and then everybody's reacting to it. Yeah. That's an example. And, you know, you could give other examples.

Certainly the Republicans like to talk about trans athletes. And I'd want to be clear, in Illinois, we have about 320,000 children, kids who are athletes. There are three trans athletes that have been identified in Illinois out of 300 and some thousand. I believe that we should stand up for the civil rights of every trans person and every trans kid. but are we really going to let the Republicans, you know, make this like the number one issue that Democrats are talking about? And I do feel like that's what, that's part of what happened. And we shouldn't. We should stand on the principle that we believe in civil rights.

We are the party of civil rights and stand up for the rights of people who are being put upon by the Republicans. That's how we should talk about that issue. And we should not be, you know, chasing after the, you know, the, well, what would you do if, you know, this bathroom. room or whether you know and this team and so on i we get lost in the issues they put in front of us you know as if like oh there's a shiny object let's go over there we're not silverfish you know we should go our own way this podcast is sponsored by un hCR the u n refugee agency displacement at its highest level since world war two more people have been forced to flee than at any time in history, UNHCR can only reach half of those facing life-threatening emergencies due to funding

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kitchen cooking set. $37 provides an individual, a winter survival kit with a blanket, sleeping mat, kitchen set, and a plastic sheet to insulate their home. $95 provides warm winter clothes for a child. Donate at unrefugees.org slash pod to help save lives, help families survive the deadly winter ahead. Donate at unrefugees.org slash pod. You know, you brought up the sort of the Mamdani Spamberger divide. And I think one reason that is exciting for people is it kind of, it represents sort of a clear vision as we were talking about a moment ago. And I, you know, when I was coming up in politics, there were sort of interesting visions for the future that were kind of being wrestled with in the Democratic coalition. and Bill Clinton had like a fully fledged ideology when he was running out of Arkansas.

And it wasn't from the left. It was this more kind of moderate, neoliberal way of addressing our problems. But it was fully fledged. Like it was it had thought through some of the hard questions. And, you know, Barack Obama runs in 2008. He runs against Washington. He doesn't really run from the left. He runs against corruption.

he runs against the establishment. Do you feel like right now there is kind of a missing vision that is not a vision from the left? Like I know recently you came out against a head tax in Chicago. This is a tax on big corporations. Jobs. It's a tax on every job for a big corporation in the state to raise to raise revenue. And you came out against that.

And medium-sized corporations. And so you came out against that. It's not fun as a. a Democrat to come out against the tax on big business, but you did. And I'm just wondering what if there's a larger story you want to tell about what you think the Democratic Party should stand for. Well, that's just being thoughtful about economic growth. You know, that does, it's not thoughtful to say, we're going to tax people for creating jobs. You know, that doesn't seem smart. Right. To me, right? It's a message. It's a message that

you're sending to businesses. We don't want you to grow. We don't want you to come here with your jobs because we're going to tax you on the jobs itself. So that's why I'm opposed to the head tax. Listen, I advocated for a graduate income tax in a state that has a flat tax and push very hard to get a constitutional amendment, which is what's required in Illinois to get that done. Very hard. I mean, I put my own personal money in.

I ran on it. So nobody can say that I'm somebody who's like, you know, just trying to save the medium and large-sized corporations or something. Like, I really believe that we got to pay. our bills and that the people who are most capable of providing the revenue to do that are the ones who should step up to the plate and we should require that. So, you know, I'm not going to, you know, head down some alley about, you know, the wings of the party when I talk about that. I think that we all, I balance the budget in Illinois after 25 years of nobody balancing

the budget, right? And why is that important? Because I want to make sure we have the money to pay for the programs that I think are so important for our state, whether it's health care or education or say which Illinois was just going down the tubes it was the education funding was going down and down as a percentage from the state of paying for and our paying for education and the the portion that was required of locals property taxes was going up and up and up so property taxes are going through the roof for everybody and the state is stepping out of education over the years that doesn't make any sense at all with the worst funding state for education when I came in office, 24% of education funding was coming from the state. The average state in the United States,

46% comes from the state. We were the worst. Now we're at about 40. We're getting better. I've been working on that ever since I took office. But I really don't think, I mean, I understand the question you're asking. I don't think you have to make the choice that you're describing. I would look at Bill Clinton, your example of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, just to say this important thing about election cycles. And that is the message of a party is typically determined by the candidate in the presidential election who we choose. And that is the message of the party, right? I'm not saying there can't be different views than that person. I'm just saying you picked those two examples because they won the nominations and they won the presidency and they had a

philosophy and they carried. Everybody in politics, I think everybody in politics, Maybe there are people who, okay, not everybody. Fair enough. But I mean, most people, and I think of myself anyway, I'm in this because I have a belief about what we ought to be as Democrats, and I'm trying to carry it out in office. And I believe that candidates, that the message of the party is not determined by you, me, and, you know, 50 other people getting in a room. And then, you know, and then when we're all done, we're going to puff a smoke and we come out with the Ten Commandments or whatever. No, or the new Pope, right? What we do as Democrats in midterm elections is we fight like hell in particular, this is a lot like the 2018 elections in my view in 26, which is, you know, we point at the guys who are in charge on the other side and say, my God, boy, do we need change, right? And so, and everybody's running in their various districts and their states on what's important in those states. Then you get to a presidential election and we choose somebody to represent the party. who represents the views that we want to carry forward. Typically, it's a combination of we like the person and we like the views.

And that's what's going to happen in 28. It didn't really happen in 24 for a variety of reasons. And, you know, it's not like pointing fingers. One big reason. Right. But, I mean, I'm saying there were features of the reason, right? I mean, Joe Biden decided to run for re-election and then 107 days, you know, before dropped out. And again, not to point fingers or blame or anything, but the reality is I haven't seen that

happen in my lifetime, have you? No. So, and it's very difficult. Primary systems, you know, they're painful, they're difficult if you're in them. I've been in a primary myself, very difficult running against people who you mostly agree with and have to differentiate yourself. And then, you know, but we go through presidential primaries in the United States where we, you know, we get to see these people over a period of time in various circumstances.

circumstances about various issues, right, competing with one another. And eventually, we narrow it down, narrow it down, and then somebody gets picked. Maybe it wasn't everybody's first pick. But in the end, we get comfortable with the person who gets picked and their views. We understand what their views are. And we've all come to either compromise to agree with those views or already agreed with them. Didn't happen in 24. And so we don't have like the consensus that typically comes out of a presidential election in our party. And in Instead, we still have the fundamental values of the party, but not the specific you just described Bill Clinton, for example. I would not describe, I mean, I know he was moderate in the traditional sense of democratic moderate, right? Pro-choice, pro-civil rights. I mean, somebody was fighting. I mean, he's beloved in the black community. He started out with, like, a lot of cred who also had some views that weren't, you know, he was like he had his sister-soldia moment or whatever. By the way, this is 30 years.

I'm just sort of describing what I think is sort of like all different ways in which a party has coalesced around different visions for the future. Yeah. And we just to have a, it's the moment we're in. We missed it. We missed it. We missed it. We're moment we're in. We didn't have that. And so that's the moment we're in. But we're going to see it again. One more thing I can be mad about Biden for. So thank you for reminding me in that. So you're an interesting person to me. And one reason I was, there are a lot of Democrats who just seem like they don't know how to talk to people. people. They just, they're kind of, they got into, they're people that kind of, uh, front of classroom kids did well on their test. They went to the good law schools. They've had an image of themselves in politics for a long time, always imagine themselves kind of always very in this kind of world, very ambitious. And you can see it on them. You can smell it on them. And you, just to be honest, like I don't, I don't get that from you. And, uh, maybe you're just really good at hiding it,

but I don't get it from you. And it's interesting because if I were to have a bunch of Democrats in front of me. Like, I wouldn't have picked you as the one who's one of the richest human beings in American politics. A billionaire grew up as part of this extremely wealthy family. And at the same time, you had this privilege. You also lost your father at a very young age. Ten years later, you lose your mother to alcoholism. And I'm wondering how that tension between the privilege of your childhood and the pain in your childhood. childhood has informed your politics. Well, I should start by saying that, you know, you, when you're a child, you don't,

you're not directing anything really in your life. Things are happening to you, right? You're fortunate to have two parents or you're unfortunate to have lost your parents. Somebody's ill in your family. Things happen to you when you're a child, and they imprint on you, especially at an early age. And that's one of the reasons, by the way, long before I became governor that I've been involved in early childhood development.

in early childhood education. Because I believe that much of who you are today, you, me, everybody, is determined really before you're age five. And your brain development, your reactivity to the things that happen in the world, happens in those various earliest stages of life. And I believe that that's true of me, like things that I experienced in, you know, early days of my life have improved. printed on me. I don't, I can look back on it. I didn't know at the time that those things were happening to me. I'm just, you know, when I, people ask, how did you end up this way or that way, you know, you think back on experiences in your life that have directed you in a certain way. And my parents had very strong, fundamental, you know, they have, in the political world,

they were democratic values, but they're about social justice. And so those things, of course, imprint on me like they do on lots of people, but also the experiences that you described of, losing family members and and living through taking care of my mother when she wasn't well and and, you know, bonding together with my siblings when, you know, we were dealing with this ourselves. But, you know, the important thing is to me, anyway, when I think back on all that and also, you know, where I am today and what I do today, I think my mother, when she was well, was a democratic activist. I mean, and I'm talking about it, she was an LGBTQ activist. She was not LGBTQ, but she was an activist because she believed in standing up for those rights.

And this is the 70s and 60s. I mean, I was too young in the 60s, remember, but when I was old enough to recognize it in the 70s anyway, and, you know, when I was 8, 9, 10, 11 years old, she was taking me with her to meetings, to rallies, to marches. And all that stuff was probably imprinting on me, right? And I sometimes say, I'm not sure if it was nature or nurture, but whatever it was, those things I still think about today. Like when I signed the reproductive health act, which guarantees a woman's right to choose in the state of Illinois, which many people may not believe because they think Illinois is a blue state, you know, but abortion was at risk in the state of Illinois. And I got to sign the law that really guarantees that right.

LGBTQ rights, not at all guaranteed. And standing up for civil rights, when those things came before, when I was fighting for them in the legislature, and when they came to my desk, you know, And I thought about, like, the history that we're making. I was thinking about my mother. And it's not just on those issues, but it's the idea that, you know, standing up for people who aren't like you. Yeah. But whose rights are being infringed upon is who I am. I mean, you know, in many ways, we are a product of where we came from.

I'm a, my family is a family of refugees from the Ukraine. And we had nothing. And when I think today about ICE and CBP, marching through the streets of Chicago and grabbing people because of the color of their skin and throwing people out of the country who are just working hard and trying to play by the rules, I think about my own family and how I should react to it. I help to build a Holocaust museum because I believe that everybody should understand that. And that also being around Holocaust survivors has informed how I react to Donald Trump and to what the Trump administration. is doing. I'm not suggesting that we're heading toward a Holocaust. I'm suggesting, though, that at least the most familiar authoritarian regime to me, because I spent so much time around it, studying the Holocaust and then implementing building a Holocaust Museum, is that. And I'm saying,

so when I, some of this stuff is instinctual for me. It's not like, you know, well, I sat down and thought about, you know, each individual thing. I mean, I do think about it, but I also think, like, I'm instinctually for protecting people. individual rights and making sure that everybody has an opportunity to succeed because that's kind of where I came from. It's, you know, you took it to policy and I appreciate that and maybe this is, you know, too psychological. But there are a lot of people that have come from wealth and they have this chip on their shoulder. Donald Trump is like that. Elon Musk is like that. The Koch brothers are like that.

And you've talked beautifully about how your mother shaped your worldview. But I also can't help but wonder if you hadn't had the pain you had as a young person that you'd be more of an asshole. But seriously, I'm wondering if you've thought about the ways in which, like, their experiences you haven't had. You knew what it was, you didn't have to worry about where your next meal was coming from. You never had to worry about that kind of thing. But at the same time, you did have to take care of your mother as a kid in a way that a lot of, that's hard, that forces a kid to grow up.

And I just, I'm curious about that aspect. Not what you've learned from your mother, but what you experience. Okay. And I would just say that this is about values. It's not about money. I don't think you're, I mean, I do think, again, you get shaped by your experiences and whether you grew up having things or not having things, right? I mean, all those experiences that you have as a result of that circumstance, right, shape you in a way. But in the end, right, your beliefs about whether we ought to have a SNAP program that actually feeds hungry people, right, and whether we ought to have universally available health care, like your beliefs about those things aren't, aren't, I mean, I believe, they don't have to be defined by the fact that you have or don't have money.

Like, how about just the value of a human life and how you're going to react to people's pain? and you know just like it maybe you could say religion would shape it's another way think your life experiences your parents you know the all and your religion all those things I think come together and I know what you're asking but I don't know I mean I don't evaluate every aspect of like how did I come to this conclusion yeah um in life or you know belief about people's rights or standing up for people who are most in pain or most vulnerable. I think this is how you end up. And I can't explain why Elon Musk is the way he is.

I can't. I don't think anybody can. And I don't think anybody can explain really what's wrong with Donald Trump. There is something wrong. But I can't explain exactly what happened in his life that led him where he is. He's just that way. And I would argue that goes back to the point I made a little bit earlier, which is sometimes the things that happen very early in your life, which are, which don't.

seem related to your views and so on are actually the things that are dictating your views. They don't seem like it. Like if you've lived in a traumatic environment growing up, that that trauma, whatever caused it would, you know, that trauma has an impact on how you react to things during your life. And you can see it, you know, there's, there are brain scans that have been done studies or brain scans that show that your brain developed differently if you grew up in a trauma-filled environment versus one that isn't. And I'm just, all I'm saying is, I don't think it's easy to like figure out how I ended up or you ended up the way that we are. It's not easy to figure all

those things out. I'll just say it isn't about money. I know people want to look at me and say, well, gee, that's a feature that we want to talk about because it's unusual, the fact that I have money. I think it's sure, it's one of many features that I think have shaped me, but everybody with money doesn't have the same values. Right. Well, that's exactly, I think, what, what what I'm getting at about it. Before we go to break, if you're not sure what to get family and friends for the holidays this year,

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go to Squarespace.com slash crooked. Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's Squarespace.com slash crooked. You know, you brought up trauma. A lot of people were traumatized by your Star Wars rankings. Which one do you disagree? So I will just say, first of all, I just want to say. Like, I was impressed. I want to start out by saying that I was impressed.

And I'm just going to give people the order. Number one's Empire Strikes Back. Number two, A New Hope. Three, Return of the Jedi. Four, Rogue One. I didn't say New Hope, by the way. You did. I know, you put Star Wars 97, I changed it to your new hope.

I know, well, there, I, you were, I'm not, I'm older than you are, I remember what it came out. I'm listening, I'm appreciating our difference. Last Jedi before Revenge of the Sith, Revenge of the Sith, and Force Awakens, then solo, phantom menace, attack of the clones, the rise of Skywalker. I have some quibbles, but first of all, I want to applaud you for two things in this list. One, having Revenge of the Sith above Force Awakens, Solo. some of these other films. I will say... You disagree with that.

I think that we... At some point, America will be ready for a politician who will admit that Rogue One is a better film than Return to the Jedi. Okay, I want to say, it's funny you say this, because Rogue One, I think, was a terrific film.

I do. And it was so out of the blue in a way, right? Because it was, I think, the first one that wasn't in the... Yeah. You know, whether it was a prequel or not. And I thought it was a terrific film.

And so it is hard to put it in order because, you know, when you're thinking about the timeline, I guess, right, it's somehow like separated from all of them. But I really enjoyed the film and I'm, you know, I just, yeah, this is where I end up. And I'm a, I'm a bit of a, I'm a space nerd. and I'm a, you know, I'm also, you know, the sci-fi in general. I'm also, you know, this is going to maybe disturb you in some way, which is, I'm a Star Trek fan too. Yeah, of course. Right. Meet me, me too.

And, but there are people who choose between the two. I don't know how they do because, I mean, they're just completely different. It's a false choice, and I don't think we should follow those people down. And nobody ever makes a, I don't think people make a list of their Star Wars movies because there's a bunch of bad ones. The Star Trek movies, me. Star Trek. Sorry, the Star Trek movies, thank you. There's a bunch of bad ones.

But I have to say the new, the newest, the beginning of the new Star Trek, I thought that was a terrific film. Yeah, yeah. Like, that may be my favorite among all of the Star Trek films. Oh, that's ridiculous. Okay. So do you have a favorite of the original, of the films? I have a favorite. I think it's, I have a favorite of the original films.

I want you to tell me first. I'm the interviewer here. What's your favorite? It was not the first one. No, no. I'm saying it was not the first Star Wars. No, no. No, no. People largely view there's the even odd thing where the even numbered films were great.

The even number films are great. And the odds were a misses. Yeah, yeah. So which of yours? I actually agree with that. And I loved the second. Rathcon is great. Yeah. Yeah. Now, that really, that was, that was, I think it was the best. I did not like the one that Picard, where Picard got introduced. I can't remember. Generations. Yeah, which is technically an odd number. So my, look, people say Ratha Khan is the best. I don't agree. I think it's. actually undiscovered country, Star Trek 6. Wait, is this the whales? No, Wales is four, which is also great. You don't like the whales. I'm sorry, I know. By the way, I have a text chain with some other space nerds.

Oh, really? And we disagree about this. People love, oh, yeah, what's, what are they? I really really pitch to that chain that undiscovered country is an underrated great film. Now I'm going to go rewatch it. It's been a little while. It's about diplomacy. There's a, it's about diplomacy.

It's not about a war. It's about using war. It's about peace. and it's a hard movie about reconciliation. I'm going to start a podcast where we have this conversation. I like that idea. I like it too. What is any other sci-fi that's like, what stands out to you?

What are the stories, like, if you're a sci-fi nerd, what do you love? Like, what have you gone back to? What are your favorites from growing up? Well, I'll just say that the Andor series I really have enjoyed. Andor's incredible. And I didn't like, and this is controversial too, the Mandalorian. I just didn't like it. I don't know why.

there was something about it. I gave up. I gave up. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, but, you know, Star Wars has, the whole bunch of, you know, whether it was series or movies, is a hodgepodge. Yeah, yeah. And I think it kind of went downhill with some of them. But Andor kind of brought me back, I have to say.

Andor is extraordinary. And, well, it's interesting because, you know, you've, you've been unabashed in making the, you know, well, with all the appropriate caveats talking about the ways in which this moment resonates with. what was happening in Germany in the 30s. And people have been very critical of you for doing that. But I found Andor really moving in part in ways I was surprised because of how much it feels like it is about what's happening right now. And I'm wondering how you, like what, what you thought about Andor. That's exactly.

And I, by the way, I'm not, you know, there's no parallel to, you know, the kind of the, you know, the rebel war that was clearly. the rebellion that was going on, you know, in And for, no, I mean, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be peacefully protesting because I want to, I want to make that clear. And I've advocated for peaceful protests. Very funny in a Star Wars conversation to have to make a caveat that you're not suggesting people take on the exact style of the resistance on these fictional planets. Right. Because they don't, hey, one thing, just these things aren't real. You're making fun of me now. No, I'm not. But I just don't want anybody to misunderstand that, you know, like when I, when I talk

about the Holocaust when I talk about it. I do think that there is resistance, you know, that isn't the kind of physical or dangerous resistance. There is the, you know, a kind of resistance, as you know, where people can stand up, speak out and have an effect. And I believe that that can happen now and is happening now, I might add. Because in, just to go back to what's been happening in Chicago, people protesting in Chicago, it's made a huge difference. And I think it's changed policy and people don't sometimes don't think that their protests will protesting will matter but people came out of the woodwork I'm going just to point out like with the I like to use as my example of how people really took this to heart

you can't find a whistle to buy in Chicago right now because people went and bought whistles because people who never protested before and they don't want to go stand with a bunch of other people and hold signs and yell things. But they do want to protect their neighbors. And so they, and having a whistle and blowing the whistle when you see ice in an unmarked vehicle, people wearing masks going after their neighbors are upset. And they don't know what to do. And the easiest, simplest way that people could act was to stand up and blow the whistle. And I get it. There are some people that are shy, some people, you know, don't want to be confrontational. But the whistle feels to many people like a way for them to protest. And it's an

indicator to me the number of people i'm talking about in quiet suburban neighborhoods who did it and i know you're we went from star wars to this i'm glad i glad we should that's good that's i like but this is to me that you know this is like it's what i it's to me the united states is going to be saved from donald trump because of those people because people are willing to break out of their you know day-to-day lives. And as hard as, you know, people, politics doesn't have a role in most people's lives, to be honest, right? But they know when their rights are, when the rights of their neighbors are being infringed upon, they understand when the, you know, the, the tenor of the country is changing in a way that they don't like, and people do react, and are reacting,

and I'm seeing it now in a way that I don't know when I've seen before in my lifetime. I mean, when I was very young, of course, protests in the 60s in the early. 70s about the war, but this is, you know, it's personal to people. This is very personal to people who never protested before in their lives. It's funny that that's where your mind went from Andor, because I understand, no, but I understand because there is something, you're watching this fictionalized, this mythical place, this mythical place that we love from the movies and these characters. And then you see what feels like what you've never seen in Star Wars before, which is the ordinary people living under the yoke of this authoritarian government.

And then you see how the people doing whatever small thing they can. They're not just fighting for each other. They're fighting against in the end, the ways in which that empire hurts everybody, including the people that are part of it. Yeah. I'm going to give you my kind of real life analogy. When I was 23, I think I went. with a group of people with an organization called the American Council of Young Political Leaders.

I don't know if you've heard of this. But anyway, it's more prominent way back when. And they would take young political leaders from the United States. People, you know, state reps are working for congressmen or senators, those kinds of folks, right? Not highfalut and well-known folks. But I was 23. I got invited to be part of it. And they would take people from other countries and bring them here.

And we would learn about each other's political systems. and I got invited and went to on a trip that was to Argentina and Uruguay and with this group half Democrats, half Republicans, about nine of eight, nine of us, went to landed in Buenos Aires and we landed and there was a military coup.

I was 23 years old and we're supposed to be learning about it was a democracy at the time right in military coup and we're learning about democracy and like all of a sudden we're in the middle of a military coup and we headed to the place we were staying, and we had to make a decision, are we going to go out in the streets and rally with the democracy advocates out in the streets

because there was going to be a democracy rally the next day? Do we want to do that, or should we go to the embassy and wait it out? And we took a vote. All the Republicans voted to go to the embassy. All the Democrats voted to go out in the streets.

I give this, tell you this, to lead to this. We all agreed that we're going to go finally to the democracy rally. We got up kind of a perch up on some stairs. This is in the Plaza de Mayo in Buenos Aires. And there were hundreds of thousands of people entering there, about eight roads that head into the Plaza de Mayo. And people with, you know, signs and people yelling and there were loud speakers and parties coming in on each of the roads and so on. And in the middle of all that was a guy with a cart selling popsicles and ice cream.

I mean, people are yelling and screaming and demanding democracy. And here's a guy in the middle of it selling ice cream. You know, I looked at that and I genuinely took a lesson from that, which is, you know, the type of political system that you live in is hyper important. But sometimes it's just about feeding your family and paying the bills. And it doesn't, in many ways, it sometimes doesn't matter to people what the system is. If it isn't directly affecting them, who's in charge. if they can put food on the table, that's what really matters.

And I'm reminded of that in this moment that we're living in as Democrats, that we have to remember that what really matters to people is not the offensive things that Donald Trump is saying. And even democracy as a broad topic, which I am fighting for, but that this issue that people say, oh, it's an issue, affordability. But this idea that you can't afford to pay your rent or this idea that you can't afford to buy your groceries, and feed your family or make enough money to do those things, those are the things that we ought to be focusing. That's how you win elections, is addressing the real problems that people face every single day. Meanwhile, those of us who are paying close attention to the type of political system because

we understand that over the long haul, it's going to really matter to people whether we still have a democracy. We've got to go fight for it, but we also, in order to win elections, we've got to focus on the things that that guy with the ice cream cart was focused on. So I think that's a really great place to leave it. But before we go, I would be remiss to not mention the fact that you came forward having declared $1.4 million in winnings from Blackjack in Las Vegas. I think that's awesome.

I am actually disappointed that you felt cowed into donating it to charity. I think you should have kept every dollar of it. Those are your fucking winnings. You went to Vegas. If you can't keep anything, if you win, you lose, they get the money. You win. You don't get anything. You didn't even get you get a stake for yourself.

That sucks. I'd like to quiz you on some blackjack hands. Oh, my God. So now I'm assuming you're in a room where the stakes are pretty high. So I'm assuming you're playing against dealer. They got high because I was winning. I was using the house's money. So it was like, great.

You know, it was easy at some point because you're using house money. But are we standing against the soft seven? Is the dealer standing on soft 17 or hitting on soft 17? The dealer is standing on soft 17. So that's a good room. that's a good room all right you got you got two fives against a nine yeah what are you doing uh you're doubling down that's correct i'm just going on the card i'm going on the card i'm going on the card i like the book the book i'm going on the book i'm seeing how you're doing against the book i hear you

i understand i grew up more i come from a long line of of gamblers well well you got to know the book to you got you can't leave the book behind until you know the book i come from a long line of horse gamblers But not true about a, by the way, a nine against, you know, five and a four against an eight, for example. Not true. You would not double down. No. Well, well, how about a pair of nines against a six? Are you splitting or are you standing?

That's a great question. I would split because I think a six is a dead loser. Well, so the book says stand. Well, obviously, you know what? Just because you go by the book doesn't mean the rest of us have to. And so if you have a pair of twos against an eight, are you running for president? I'm forgetting a 7 and then 10 is what I'm hoping for. It's smart.

You've got to be good cards. You've got to make your own luck, being lucky smart. Governor J.B. Pritzker, thank you so much for your time. Good to talk to you. Thanks, John. I really appreciate it. Thank you. If you want to listen to Pod Save America, ad-free, and get access to exclusive podcasts,

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