Pod Save America - Can Soccer Save the World?

Episode Date: July 12, 2026

How is the world reacting to America's World Cup? Did Trump's red card interference ruin all the fun? And will the U.S. men's national team ever be good? Gary Lineker, host of The Rest Is Football and English soccer legend, joins Tommy to talk about the excitement, anxiety, and geopolitics surrounding the 2026 World Cup. Gary offers some advice to America on how to become a true soccer nation, discusses the successes and failures of this World Cup, and reminisces about his time playing in the 1986 World Cup — where he won the Golden Boot and played in the historic "Hand of God" match.For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail]. 

Welcome back to Pod Save of America. I'm Tommy Vitor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World Cup is now about a week away. And I am already genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full-on World Cup junkie. And I don't know what I'm going to do going forward to not do work at the office because we just have the games on all day. And what makes this all the more remarkable is that before the World Cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids, visa restrictions, travel bans, and then also, you know, issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets. That one was not resolved, by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the U.S. men's team, at least at first, the unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to

America, fall in love with our cities, our culture, inhale food from Waffle House and serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it is served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that we live in a great country and one that is defined by its people and not by its politics. So today, to dig into All Things World Cup, I'm thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty. Gary Lineker, he's a former England striker, broadcaster, and co-founder of Gollhanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation. The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today, he's one of Britain's best-known sports

broadcasters. And he's one who has used its platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview. Today, Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called The Rest is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goalhanger.

They've got a bunch of great shows. The rest is history, the rest is politics. The list goes on. And another great way to support progressive, independent media, is to become a friend of the pod subscriber here with Crooked Media. You'll get ad-free episodes of Pod Save America. You'll get other great crooked shows,

like Pod Save the World is ad-free as well. you'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pot Save America episodes. You get deep dives into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So be coming a paid subscriber, it's a single best way you can support our work and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation with Gary Lineker. So Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World Cup.

So it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you've covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far? I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World Cup, they're always pros and cons. But I think by and large, it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the football's been really good. and some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verdi, for example.

I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated, not just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get. get on. Yeah. Even if we're on from all parts of the world. So I think that's been, that's been wonderful.

The tournament's building up now, obviously, to the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But I think it's been way better than I actually thought it would be. They're obviously going into it like we do in all World Cups. We always think there's, you know, there are going to be things that go wrong and there have been

and things that we perhaps don't like. But overall, I think it's been, I think it's been a triumph, really. Yeah. I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering. I mean, in the lead up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies, the impact on the quality of play from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know that one has not been resolved because I've been on stuff. Oh, my God. People don't love FIFA generally, right? Johnny Infantino and giving the, you know, fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field, the clips of, you know, the Scottish fans at Fenway Park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like just what happens every FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties and then the play starts and we move on?

Or what do you make of it? Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them. But prior to the World Cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. I mean, there's a lot of anticipation and excitement as well, the positive side, But also, you know, I go back, let's not go back too far, but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans with thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so much money on the World Cup, stadiums, etc.,

rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the Health Service in Brazil. Roll on four years, we're in Russia. Four years previously, they'd invaded Crimea. So that was, you know, massive concern. when we go on to Qatar and there was concerns about LGBTQ plus right people have been dying building the stadiums

but again going into this one we're obviously worried about the situation who's going to be allowed into this country which we never had before we did have concerns obviously when the referee the Somalian referee wasn't allowed in

but you know everyone was worried about ice taking fans off the streets but that's thankfully not really transpired. So yeah, it was ever thus, really. And, you know, during the World Cups, there are always things that you don't like, and there's been things like you said the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous.

FIFA is supposed to be a non-for-profit organisation. They've got billions of pounds or dollars or euros in Swiss banks. And obviously they always say it goes back into the game, and a lot of it, of course, does. I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World Cup that profit becomes the most important thing rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage or sell their car to get a ticket to go and watch a football match. So I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World Cup in terms of what happened with Balligan, the American Forward that was. He got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision.

But they didn't reverse the decision. They just postponed the fact that he's suspension. So, which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two-game ban. So you just think, how can this possibly happen? So there are always things in the tournament. But I think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall.

Yeah, FIFA is a – well, I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. I'm sure they're a nonprofit. I would love to see what the line item is for Gianni Infantino's private jet this month because he's at a lot of games that are far away. And boy, they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast, I've noticed. Before we get to that, though, so you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in England, also in Spain. You played for England in 80 international games.

How does the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World Cup compare to those other big games in moments? Nothing like it. Representing your country at a World Cup. I think it's the most special thing you can ever do. I would compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic Games. That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of, it's a little bit different to just a medal table compare, you know, the US are always there with China

and it's always the same people because there's so many different sports involved. But football is kind of a global sport. Even you guys have joined in a little bit now. You've got a bit of interest I've noticed. So which is great. So it's a chance really. I don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patrioticness supporting your country.

But at the same time, we can all get on and enjoy it. So it is unique. And when you walk out, you know, represent your country and you stand there and they're playing the national anthem. And especially if things go well. I mean, it's just, it's hard to describe. It's just like, it's just like this is huge explosion of joy and pride. It's amazing.

You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986 World Cup. They were going through some shit at the time. You know, they had one party rule. They had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that at all? Do you feel bad about, you know, beating them that bad? Um, I, if I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously, some terrible things.

things in all countries suffer at different times. And we've been responsible for a lot of it over hundreds of years. But no, when you're on that football pitch, you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win. And it's nothing like it. You were tougher on that country than communism even. I mean, that was a tough game. Now you transition from player to broadcaster to podcaster.

Do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from unathletic schlubs that used to have them. I don't think I've done that. I think we've added lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Goal Hangout. You got some unathletic slubs on the payroll. You feel like? We've definitely got some of those. Okay. Save some downloads for the rest of us, all right? We've got political pods as well. Yeah. Yeah, no, you do. You have some great ones. So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of America's best players, Flob allegations. We could play against Belgium. So the U.S. We got worked in that game.

We lost badly. So the suspension of Balagan's red card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game. But as you said, that decision is going to be – it's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time. So do you think Baligan deserved a red card on the play? And what does the international reaction been to what FIFA did? How big a deal is this? It's a pretty big deal because I think it goes against the integrity of our sport. you know, you've got to have rules and they've got to be fair

and they've got to be the same for everyone. You can't have, you know, one rule for one and one rule for another. Not in our sport. And we've never had anything, I don't think, quite like this before. So, you know, whilst it probably, well, it most certainly didn't make any difference or it might have had some kind of negative effect on America's performance with all the hullabaloo around the story. I don't think so.

I mean, Belgium were always likely to be. the US. It's, you know, it's not your, obviously, your primary sport in this country. You're on a road. I think you're on a journey where football is, is growing in this country. And you've got a league now that's, you know, you've got one of two of the best players in the world. Messies here. So I think it is growing.

But I've always wondered why, why in terms of FIFA that they're so obsessed with trying to get America to be super interested in our sport. Because if ever you are, if you ever get all your real athletes playing out game, you might be bloody good, and that would be really irritating. Yeah, I hear you. I mean, look, I knew we were in trouble in that game. Well, we were in trouble already. But when Belgium subbed in a striker who had been named League MVP in the Syria late in the game, this guy, Lukaku, and then we subbed in the former coach's son who played for an MLS club in Canada,

that kind of told you everything about the quality of the players who were out there. Potsave America is brought you by Zbiotics. I love Zbiotics. It's awesome. Love it. Take it before a night with drinks. It's called pre-alcohol. Zibiotics, pre-alcohol, probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by-dhistists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a build-up of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink, of the night, drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow.

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That's 50% off your first order at Sundays for dogs.com slash crooked. Sundays for dogs.com slash cricket or use the code cricket at checkout. Let me ask you about that U.S. team, though. So I got to see the U.S. team play against Panama. It was one of the most fun experiences, period, I've ever been to, sports, whatever, concerts anything. Everyone left that stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing like this is our breakout year. And throughout the group stage, we looked pretty good. We were operating, felt like we were operating on a different level. And then Belgium shows up. And they

kicked the shit out of us. And it's an unbiased outsider. Like, give it to us straight, Gary. Were we actually any better this year, the US team? And what do you think happened against Belgium? Well, I think I remember being interviewed early on after the before the tournament and you're always asked obviously how the host nation will go or one of the host nations, America which and I always said if they got to the last 16 I think that would be a really good effort. I couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good like a proper big year. European team won the North African sides. But I thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for the states and the tournament as a whole. Because you want the host nations doing reasonably well. So if I'm really honest, rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as I ever saw them going. Yeah. You know, it's funny. After that first game,

you talked about the Panama game when they had that incredible first half and it was really good to see. And I know Mauricio really well, Pochitino, and he's a delightful man, and I'm really pleased for him for that. And it was a terrific performance. All my American friends were coming at me and saying, texting me and saying,

you were wrong about us, we're going to go all the way. And I was going, mate, honestly, I know these World Cups, and it's always the hope that kills you. As soon as you start believing a little bit, it all goes wrong. Oh, yeah.

As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that. It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think the palaver surrounding balligans thing did, I don't think it helped them. I think if, I think Maricio missed the trick there. I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think he could, I think would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that. But I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you know, you've got half a good team,

but there's not much depth yet. And hopefully the sport will grow, but we'll see. Yeah, Pochitino had sat Baligan. I think he might have been the first guy thrown into ICE detention while in a stadium by Trump. So, you know, it's a challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Polisic? He did not have a great World Cup. He sobbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former U.S. men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels, I'm sure that's painful for him. But what do you make of this? I think it's a little unfair because I think his abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion.

I mean, Pulisic is a very good player, very, very good footballer. He's had a good career. He's played in England. He's played in Italy. He's a good footballer. But, you know, when you, obviously, he's on all the billboards here. I mean, we're doing the show it from here in from Times Square. And he's everywhere. And you think, well, that's, it's almost like he's messy or Ronaldo. And with all due respect, he's a very good footballer, but he's not a great player. He's not, you know, he's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch.

But I think when you're the, you've got carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably so much. So I feel for him, actually, because. Whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a, you know, of a World Cup. In reality, that was never realistically going to happen. So I can sympathise with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard.

It's difficult. You know, you're playing best players in the world and they're out to stop you. You know, I've played as a forward all my career. And we have these things called defenders. they're out there to stop you. By hook or by crook, they'll try it in some way. Every World Cup, we kind of talk about, is this the U.S.'s year? Are we going to take soccer to the next level?

And it's to the point where it's kind of become a running joke. But what would that entail? Is that more developing the professional level? Are we talking about, like, getting more kids involved, all of the above? All of the above, really. You've got a long way to go. What you need, you've got a league now, which is, you know, you've had a league before. Obviously, we didn't quite work.

I kind of started again. Now you've got a league. You need to work out a plan for youth football. Obviously, you've set great examples in the women's game. You're probably the best in the world of that. Yeah, they're amazing. I would say, they're amazing. But you need, I think it needs an overall plan

and where you've got to really, I think, concentrate on the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know I've spent a lot of time in America over the years and I've been to, I've seen the, you know, there's a lot of football camps, but you need some kind of proper organisation, probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached.

Obviously, you've got a very different system to us and Europe in all football, really, of how you deal with players that go. going that are young. Say you, in our country, for example, and the same applies across Europe, if you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16, your education,

they will give you education on the side, but you have to start 16. Obviously, in America, with your sports, they go to college or they go to university and they get draft picks. And by, you know, if you do that in football, it's too late. It's too late.

By the time you're 20, there will be, you know, There's always examples that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So I think the whole, I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World Cup and then hope it goes well, but build a long-term future. Look 10, 20, 30 years ahead because it is realistically going to take that long fear to challenge. So, sorry. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. 2030 is our year is what you're telling me.

Sorry. Yeah. So let me talk about FIFA. FIFA famously corrupt organization. In 2015, you know, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like $150 million in bribes, all these sports marketing executives, too. DOJ is accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from, you know, Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. Set Blatter, the former president of FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer-related activities.

Johnny Infantino, the new guy, doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know. I'm, you know, a casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stand to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like? I've been hoping for that for a long time. Yeah.

I find it quite depressing, particularly the cases you talked about. I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the World Cup. But I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a big footballer nation. They'd never hosted it. And I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle East and Qatar either. But what hurt, what made it feel dirty was it was so obvious that the bids were corrupt. And it was latterly proved to be the case that a lot of them took backhanders for their votes.

So I remember thinking this is just truly awful for a game. And then obviously it changed. Infantino came in. I met him. He's a nice guy. I spent time with him. And I was hopeful. I was really hopeful that this would be a change.

I don't think for one minute now they're putting bongs to people, you know, packets full of cash to get votes for the World Cup or individuals or who's going to host it. But I don't like the fact that they're making that much money. And I don't see why they need to do that because they, you know, yes, it goes back into the game, but does it? Does it? We don't really know.

It's all a little bit secretive in the Swiss banks. So it concerns me. But the sport itself is good. It's But I think it's the same in all things Isn't it? It's like if you look, even if look at politics across the world

And then the example of this World Cup Where all fans come together And actually we just want to get on I think 90% of the world Just want to have a life They want to be able to afford to have, you know, eat, They want to have a nice home

And just get on with it And I think actually we really like each other Oh, but it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA they just don't seem to get that. It's all, I don't know, that it's greed or it's ego

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Helixleep.com slash crooked. One challenge we've had here in the U.S. is sports gambling. It's really exploded in the U.S. in 2018. There was a Supreme Court ruling that Jaisley opened up sports gambling in all sorts of states. A lot of sports league, the professional leagues, have embraced gambling and the money it brings in. But now, like, no surprise, we're seeing indictments and players getting charged with like illegal betting schemes and point shaving and yada, yada, yada. Do you worry about the impact of sports betting on the integrity of professional soccer?

It seems a lot harder to fix a soccer game than it is to do like an over under on like free throws made. It's difficult. I'm not going to be naive here and say it doesn't go on because I think there are certain things and with things have been proven. And you know, you can bet on absolutely almost anything now. We've had betting in our country for a long time. But you can, you know, you can bet on how many corners and whether a player is going to get a yellow card. And that opens it up. That opens it up to, you know, possible dodgy goings on.

So that concerns me. Overall, at the top level, players earn so much money that I don't think... There will obviously be the odd exception. I don't think players will be bought. But it is a worry for me. I mean, people can have a bet. I have no problem if somebody wants to bet on something. But what I don't like is the attitude of the bet.

betting companies and the way they entice young. I don't know whether it's the same in America, but you know, in England they'll entice them in with a very attractive looking bet. You know, like Belgium to beat USA, 20 to 1. I don't know how you do the odds in this country, but then they'll get them in, but to do that bet, which is gonna win,

you've got to get an account. And so then they're in. And once they're in, I mean, it ruins their life. I think Killing and Bappi speak out. against the gambling culture around football, and I absolutely totally agree with him. I don't have, the rest is football that I do. We've always refused gambling adverts, for example.

I won't get involved in that. So yeah, I think it is a concern, and it's something that we really need to keep an eye on. Yeah, absolutely. I especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become to just lay bet after bet after a bet, from your phone on your couch. Like there's no friction, there's no bookie,

there's no casino, there's no nothing. You're just going like this. It's terrifying because it's so addictive as well. I mean, when you, I talk to people that work with people in various addictions, whether it's, you know, alcohol, drugs, they say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction. As a broadcaster after your career, I mean, you've been outspoken about a number of issues, including, you know, immigration rights, the war in Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer, didn't always love you talking about issues that

were not soccer. In the U.S., athletes are often scolded for having political opinions or talking about social issues. A Fox News host famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which was a very nice way to talk to someone. How did you think about when and how to speak out and about what issues? I think it came with social media because suddenly you get a platform, whereas before social media unless you're asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity to share your views.

I've always felt strongly and tried to, you know, stand up for humanitarian rights, etc. So I think it's, I understand why most sports people don't get involved because you do get a lot of shit when you do it. I got that as well. But it's generally shit from people with some kind of vested interest in the opposite view to that you've got. And it's generally from the people that clamber go on and on and on about free speech. They, you know, it's free speech.

But as soon as you do it as a sports person, oh no, you stick to talking about football. We don't want to hear your political opinions. But, yeah, I suppose I got, I started voice. my concerns about various things on social media and it went from there really but I just sometimes if I see something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on I just feel the need to to speak up about it and I understand why some people don't because it can make your life very difficult but for me I the only person you can control really is yourself

yeah you know if you go home at the end of the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay, I did the right thing today. It probably doesn't make any difference to anybody, but you've got to live with yourself. Yeah, well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I think it's, we live in a world where people are very cynical. And when they see someone, they know and they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20 years talking about the war in Gaza, for example, I think that matters. And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not have heard about. But also, you know, back to our conversation about, like, the, the friction-free gambling and the ease of social media.

I know it makes it like almost too easy to speak out on things sometimes. Like I know you had an incident where you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it. You unreservedly apologized. You said it was a mistake. You didn't see, you know, the image in there. You never would have shared. But like, did that make you feel like chastened and want to retreat from conversations?

Or how did you deal with that? I mean, I've had a few incidents over my career with BBC because, you know, they have this. impartiality rules that actually didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs, but then they moved the goalposts and made it through for everyone. But I'd also got into the habit thing. So I'd had a couple of fallouts with them prior. And I always felt I was in the right on those. But the last one that kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a little bit earlier was,

I genuinely concerned because that was, you know, absolutely an honest error. You know, I was posting something. And there was a little tiny rat emoji on the post, which I genuinely didn't say. I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately. And, you know, I was made aware that it's apparently some kind of anti-Semitic trope, although, you know, why rodents would ever be compared with human beings, I don't know. But obviously, as soon as I was aware of, I took it straight down and I apologise. But I felt bad about that because that was my fault.

I should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it. But I didn't. But as soon as I did, I took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a tough few days because I wasn't pleased with myself on that one. But it was one of those things and sometimes things happen for a reason. And I think I've been at the BBC for 30 years. And it's like a long marriage.

In the end, you gently fall out. You go your separate. Ready to move on. Yeah. Yeah. One last question about social issues in soccer. I mean, there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer. I mean, earlier this week, a senator in Paraguay tweeted like some vile stuff about

Kiliun Mbapé, who for those who don't know, is this unbelievably good guy. He's the best player on the French team. He's one of the best in the world. Like, I don't, it's hard not to. like him, but she's like been this ongoing fight with him now. A couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of the European championship game, and then three black players on the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse on social media. And I know FIFA has like run all these kind of anti-racism campaigns, but you see critics say like it's really just marketing, it's not substance.

Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior? I think they genuinely do try, to be honest, and there will be supportive. I can speak for the Premier League. I think they do a lot of good in this area. And it's not just performative stuff. They do some really important things. I think, unfortunately, and as we see a lot in the world nowadays,

there will always be isolated attacks on people. You talked about the Paraguayan senator, I believe, that cast abuse on killing of VAPA, and it was outrageously racist. I wasn't even trying to hide it. And then he responded, and then she responded again, claiming to be the victim,

and it was quite absurd. And you talked about the three penalty takers for it. And, you know, that's a load of people on social media, as we all know, but I don't think they were views shared by the vast majority. But there is an issue not just in sport, but in every walk of life in terms of racism. And again, I'll go to sometimes the people at the top,

the people in our governments. Do they do enough? You know, is it a football issue or is it a societal issue? I think it's the latter, and it's, you know, you just need more from your governments, and you need them to set a good example, not a bad example. Yeah, well, you're not getting a lot of help

from the United States on that front. I have to agree with you. Indeed. Not sending our best over in the U.S. Pazza America is brought to you by Smalls. Smalls makes fresh human-grade food for cats. It's made from the same stuff you or I would eat, but formulated specifically to help cats thrive.

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Spain has unbelievable talent. I got to see them in person against Austria here in L.A. Argentina is messy. Norway has Holland. England is stacked. We're recording this Friday before the Spain, Belgium game. But at the moment, who do you think is best positioned to win this thing?

When is this going out? When are we... This will drop Sunday. This will drop Sunday. So I'm going to look a fool here, right? Both of us, yeah, yeah. I predict Morocco is going to win it all, so I'll start it. No, well, yeah, good.

We do know that result, which we've already had that one. I can't see Belgium living with Spain. I think Spain would win that relatively comfortably. Then I go, England, Norway, it sounds like England should win easily, but Norway are going to be tough. Holland, man. He's like a horse out there. He's the most Viking-looking guy I've ever seen in my life.

And he's a great guy. I know Erling really well. I've interviewed him a few times. And he's got a lovely sense of humor. Boy, can he play? Can he finish? I mean, he just scores goals. So he's going to, if England can stop him,

they'll have a good chance. I think England have to be slight favorites. I'm going to go with England. I can't not go with him. obviously as an Englishman myself. But, you know, I just want it happen in my... I was too young to remember in 1966 when England won the World Cup for the only time.

So I've suffered so many times. I just want us to win it before I die. Just once. Just once, please. But yeah, so I'll go England. And then I think Argentina should beat Switzerland. I think Switzerland done really well to get to the quarterfinals. But I think their time is probably up. and the little fellow's just too good, man.

Messies is just too good. Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park. They were drinking the bars, you know, out of beer. Were they that lovable when you were playing against them, the Tartan Army? Were they fuck?

They were horrendous. Yeah, but they don't like us very much. I mean, I think they've probably got good reason, but with history. history. But no, they, they were tough to play against. But it's, the weird thing is, as English, we actually really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fan stuff. And we, we genuinely wanted, we genuinely want them to do well. The opposite is true for them. I know. They desperately want us to lose every single time we play. So, um, but their fans were amazing. Their fans, I think they won the

World Cup of the Fan World Cup, didn't they? I think. But then you get the Japanese and the Mexicans are incredible. I mean, all the English fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with Mexico's fans and they all were a little bit nervous. But every single one of them has come away saying how amazing it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were, how they treated the English fans, how they all hugged together on the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game. And Mexico played so well with great heart. And that for me is the most beautiful thing about this competition. It really was.

There was an amazing image I thought. I think it was a bunch of fans from Columbia, I think, when they played D.R. Congo. And there was one guy from the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys holding up his phone singing his national anthem by himself. And everyone respectfully kept quiet. Then they all jumped and hugged him after. And it was just, you know, this beautiful moment. Some of those things. I mean, they could teach us all the lesson.

Can football save the world? Hey, hey, I think you're working on it over there, goalhanger. You played your whole career without getting a single yellow or a red card. How is that possible? I never tackled anyone to stay away from all that. No defense. No. Yeah, when I played, they didn't dish out yellow cards like they quite as theatrically and quite as frequently as they do now.

So there was a degree of that. But having said that, I'm not sure there's anyone else done it. But it was madri. I don't know. I haven't got temper. I don't really have a temper. So I was never going to, you know, Lambaster referee. I could whinge a little bit.

But I just, I didn't call them any terrible names. And I, yeah, I wasn't overly physical as a player. And I got kicked a lot. But the thing is, you know, can that make, that can make you angry sometimes. But the truth is the only time it really makes you angry is when it hurts a lot and you're laying on the floor for a minute. And by the time you, for the time you,

for the time you've been treated, you're okay again, your temper's like gone down. Yeah, a variety of reasons. But it is a bit mad. I didn't even think about it. Until near the end of my career, and people started saying, he's never been booked.

He's never had a yellow card. And then I started to think, you know, it was in my mind a little bit on occasions. And I just thought, maybe my last ever game, I remember playing my last ever match. I was thinking,

maybe I should just punch your rest. I was thinking that too. Go out of Blaze of Glory. Just beat the shit out of goalie. Yeah. Exactly. Actually, I wouldn't mess with the goalies. Those guys look like psychos.

No, no, they're big. Jesus Christ. Yeah, they are mad. I was told to ask about the closest you ever came to getting carded. I don't know if that's a story there. I was in, that was in Spain, full enough.

I was very, he went to his pocket. And my offense was laughing at his decision. He made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughing. And he went with the pocket and I said to him, you're going to give me a yellow card for laughing. And he put his hand back. And that was it.

You were just laughing in his face? I was just laughing out loud. Not in his face. Oh, got, got, got, got. I was just laughing. That absurd decision he'd make. Oh, that sounds fun. I love when the refs get pissy.

You know, you can tell when they have a little bit of an ego. You played in the infamous or famous, just famous, Hand of God game against Diego Maradonna and the 1986 World Cup. Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that game, just a bit about what happened in Maradona? Because it's like, it is, is it the most famous game in history? I kind of feel like it is. I think it is.

I think because of a variety of reasons, four years previously, the two countries were at war with the Falklands or Malbinas, as they call it. So that had an effect. And then it was built up before of this, that, you know, are Argentina going to revenge England's war victory, if you like to call it that. So that was a big deal. And they had the Argentinian side, had Diego Maradonna, who was the greatest football that I certainly played against. I played with him once as well.

He was the best of his time. In terms for me, the best players ever have been two Argentinians and a Brazilian Pele, Maradonna and now Messi. Messi, for me, beats them all. But Maradonna was playing in this game, And it was pretty awful first half for the most famous game in history. But the second half kind of heated up a bit.

The ball lumped into the air and Diego went to head it, but in the end he punched it over our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate VAR and what it's done to our game, but I could have done with it that day. Yeah, that'd be nice. So he punched it in, and there was obviously those huge ramifications for that.

And then just a few minutes later, He scored what I think is the greatest goal that's ever been scored in a football match. I've seen a couple of simulons. Messi scored one very similar, but you have to take into account. This was a quarterfinal of a World Cup in Mexico City, in the Azteca,

with these two huge countries. And Diego, doing what he did was, one time where I was on a pitch and somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt I ought to applaud. I didn't, because that would not have gone down very well at home. And then after that, I scored the goal that no one remembers.

Oh, I didn't know that actually. There you go. There you go. My proof. Yeah. I score with my head. And then in the very last seconds of the game, a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger, who made a massive difference in the game,

flipped it over. I was coming at the forepoint. I knew I was going to score. And from somewhere, a lot of a chair, their left back came up, and it hit the back of his head and went out. So that was, yeah. Which, you know, I'm almost over it now. It's only 40 years on.

I was going to say, after all these years, does it still hurt to have lost, or it's just cool to have been a part of, like, history? I think it's cool to have been a part of that history. That's extraordinary. I still would have preferred to have won. Yes, yes. Folks should go on YouTube and check out the really beautiful tribute

you did to Maradonna when he passed away. Yeah, bless it. It's worth watching. Would you ever run for office? No. That's the easiest question you've asked. Nope. I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in being a politician.

What about what's his name, Binnie McBinface, Count Binface, that guy accused from it? Count Binface, yeah, I know Count Binface. Do we like his platform? I like his head. For those of who don't know, there's a guy who wears, he kind of dress like Star Wars and wears a trash can on his head and he runs in every special election. Yeah, he runs everywhere. He's all over kind of by election. that he'll turn up.

But normally there's a load of other politicians as well, but it does appear that in this by-election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel Farage to try and distract from his murky goings on, and he's grifting. But it doesn't look like any of the other parties in our country are going to put up a politician to run against him. So it might be that Farage runs against Count Bimface.

And if Count Bimfetch ones, that will be the greatest day. in political history. The greatest upset. Let's make it happen. Let's make it happen. Oh, my God. If you could count BinFace beats Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard.

It would be so much better than Liz Cruss and the lettuce or anything else that has happened. It would be even better. It would be wonderful. Final question for you. So my buddy, Roger Bennett, encouraged me to be an Everton fan a couple of years ago. I have to say, it hasn't been the most fun winning experience. But I watched the World Cup and I see the, you know, the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford playing lights out.

You see former Everton players like Lukaku's scoring for Belgium. What is Everton doing? What do we need to do to get them back on track? Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, I'd one year there. It was amazing. My best season. I scored a hell of a lot of goals.

Best team I played for. In the mid-80s, they were brilliant, such a strong side. You know, they've been through the mill a little bit and things haven't quite happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit of late, But yeah, it's a great football club, though. And that's what supporting, I'm sure it's the same in American sports. You know, the suffering makes, you know, the awful times make the good times better,

as long as you do get some good times at some point. Yeah, I got to tell you, as a Red Sox fan, we were like the lovable losers for years and years and years. It feels akin to how England feels about winning a World Cup. And then we started winning everything. And there's a bit of you that misses the hurt and misses the underdog. And now everyone just hates us, you know? Yeah. Well, that's what happens when you get successful. So what do you want? You want to be successful, win trophies, have loads of joy, or do you want everyone to hate you? It's a tough call. I think the former.

I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Last last question. Is playing in Barcelona or playing in Spain the most fun thing in the world? That seems so cool. Playing for Barcelona is amazing. I mean, I was there for three years. It's a monstrously big football. club. It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special. And especially when you play those games against Real Madrid, let's call them the classicos. I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first one I ever played in, I scored Hattrick and scored three goals in the game. And we won three two. And there were 120,000 people in the stadium. And every single one of them was a Barcelona fan. There was no away fans. There were no, because we, I don't know whether you get that in

American sports, where do you get many fans that travel to watch their team play. I don't know. But in England, we do. We're a small country. It's quite easy to get around to the away grounds. But this was like, honestly, I'd scored two goals in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over me with the noise and it was so special. And those games are so big. But yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight of my career. I bet you didn't, I didn't pay for your own top us very often when you went out. That must have been of a happy fan base. They were very sweet. They were very sweet at the bar. And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They'd never like they wouldn't bother you too much. You know,

they'd see you and they'd not, but they wouldn't. I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now. Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that and everyone's like click, click, click, click. Listen, Gary, I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so much for doing the show. So everyone should check out. The rest is football. Everything goalhanger is doing. You guys make amazing shows. Just a hit machine over there.

So thank you for your time. Check out the show on Netflix, also, by the way. And enjoy the rest of the World Cup. Thank you for the plug. And thank you for having me. Enjoyed it. Truly my pleasure. Pads of America is a Cricket Media production.

Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari, with Reed, Gerlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hethkoat, Charlotte Landis, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.