Pod Save America - "Caravan of Lies."

Episode Date: October 24, 2018

Tommy and Lovett discuss Trump's closing argument of lies and why the media needs to stop repeating them, they inexplicably have to explain why nationalism is bad, offer a health care policy update and the latest on the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Then, Jon Favreau interviews Andrew Gillum, the Democratic candidate for governor in Florida.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm John Lovett. Today is Wednesday, October 24th, and there are less than two weeks before the midterm elections. Holy shit, Lovett. Go to votesaveamerica.com if you haven't. Check out the voter guide, fill out a sample ballot, and use our new Make a Plan feature to pick a time and a place and a date that works for you to vote. Set a calendar reminder, be a voter. It feels good. You better fucking vote. All right?

I'm not paying attention to the news like this. And you people aren't going to vote? Get your friends to vote. Get your enemies to vote. No, not your enemies. Love and I are recording this from New York City, where we are slowly seeping into the establishment. But then we head to Philadelphia to record the third episode of Pod Save America on HBO. You know what, Tommy? What? I realized something. What? All you had to do to become

part of the establishment is stop resisting it. The indomitable Simone Sanders will co-host in Philly, and our guest will be Chrissy Houlihan, the Democratic candidate for Pennsylvania's sixth district. So please check it out. We're getting better at this each week. I promise. We really worked out the kinks in Austin. Yeah. Real quick, big thank you to Guy Branum and Aaron Ryan, who are guest hosting Love It or Leave It. Yes, we had an awesome episode with Guy that posted

this weekend. Aaron Ryan is going to be co-hosting for the next two weeks while we're on the road. And they've been great shows. Yeah, they really have. I really feel superfluous. And Ben Rhodes is co-hosting pod save the world he had an awesome interview with david lammy uh official over in the uk and then a couple candidates today great episodes thank you to ben um today we want to talk about our liar in chief we're going to give you a quick reminder of why nationalism is bad apparently we need to do that these days uh health care policy update and a quick update on the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

Then you'll hear Jon Favreau's interview with the next governor from the great state of Florida, Andrew Gillum. I'm pumped to hear that. Finally got Gillum. That's cool. He's not cutting brush. Should we get him on the fucking podcast? Real quick, there are reports of bombs being sent to Obama, Hillary, George Soros, CNN. We can't confirm any of these.

We have no idea who did it or why, but it is scary. Again, I don't know the motive of whoever did this, but as a general matter, it might be good not to dehumanize our political opponents. End of thought. Yep. Okay. The big story this week are lies, the liars who tell them and the fools who repeat them. Crooked media editor in chief Brian Voigtler wrote a fantastic piece about how Trump and the Republicans are just flooding the zone with ridiculous lies from accusing Democrats of paying Hondurans to come to America to vote and or join ISIS to a totally made up tax cut. to a totally made up tax cut. Too often, the media seems to once again be handling Trump the microphone and letting him freestyle bullshit. So we don't want to exacerbate the problem. But I think we need to call out this crap because this is obviously a strategy.

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about a caravan. It's not that important. It's a group of people in desperate need who've come together to protect themselves on their way to seeking refuge in Mexico at the US border along the way. And it's happened before. It is an issue. It's happening in the world. It is a humanitarian issue. The Daily had a reporter down there talking to people who were joining this caravan. It's people looking for work. It's people looking for safety. There are gay and trans people escaping persecution, trying to find a place where they can feel safe. You know, this is a humanitarian problem. It is not a midterm cudgel. It's certainly not a national security emergency. And it is pretty clear that a lot of the institutions that refuse to do some reflection after the 2016 election are making a lot of the same mistakes. This is the point that Brian makes, a lot of points a lot of people are making. We are seeing pictures of this caravan everywhere. And yes,

a lot of the reporting is debunking the lies, but a lot of it is also simply elevating the story and saying, will this work for Donald Trump? Will this caravan story get him over the finish line? Meanwhile, what's on the screen? It is photos of the caravan. Now, you would be confused if you were expecting news to actually inform you about what's at stake in this election, which is matter. I mean, what is the federal government exists to take in tax revenue and use it to spend on the Defense Department, Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlements and benefits. That is what it is.

That is what is at stake in this election. And we know the fundamental choice that people actually have to make. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on with a few thousand people just north of Central America. Some facts about the caravan. It was organized by officials in Honduras fleeing violence, not Nancy Pelosi. These caravans have happened since the late 90s. They're a way for people to travel in groups and stay safe without paying a smuggler. There are not

record numbers of migrants arriving at the border. The numbers were more than double what they are now in the 90s and 2000s. People are fleeing violence and poverty, not seeking George Soros money. The last time the media flipped out about a so-called caravan, a tiny fraction of those individuals actually made it to our border to seek asylum. So I am so frustrated by this because we are past the point where people can credibly argue, well, Trump is the president of the United States. So if he says it, it's news. Even he concedes that one of his craziest lies, that there must be Middle Easterners

or terrorists in the caravan, is based on nothing. He tried to get Mike Pence to back up his claim that Democrats are somehow behind the caravan. Who's Mike Pence? Yeah, the vice president of the United States. Pence wouldn't do it. And like, by the way, illegal immigration and crime is at near historic lows. This is not a crisis.

It's a story, but it's not the story. And it is so frustrating. The story, the way this is being covered is a gift from the press to the Republican Party. Pull out an FEC report, file it as an in-kind contribution, because these same people are in the Daily Beast today talking about how they know the story is bullshit, but they want to talk about it. This is how they want to close the election. Yeah. And you also see sort of the intellectual zambonis who come and clean up behind Trump, right? This is a racist appeal. This is an appeal towards fear. It's an appeal not based in truth. And they're saying, well, wait, wait, wait. The only reason this is working is because

Democrats refuse to give donald trump his wall or because democrats have said they're for abolishing ice or whatever other kind of explanation or justification they can offer for which is ultimately a false racist appeal in the final days of a campaign because they can't actually campaign on their accomplishments which is deregulation trying to undo protections for pre-existing conditions and cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy which is partly why they're making up a tax cut for the middle class as their domestic message. Yes. Last sort of point on the caravan, like it's a thousand miles away. And to the argument, well, you know, we're debunking the lie. So we're covering it as a lie.

I mean, it's not the only lie he tells all day. He lies all day long every day. So I don't know that we should focus on the caravan story because it's a new lie. All he wants you to do is show these images because like John said, the AP described it as an army marching towards the border. And that's what it looks like. It's a racist appeal that scares his base. Don't fall into his trap. And also, yeah, Trump's saying it's a national emergency. Just be honest. You're putting it on television because it looks like television. It's big groups of people. It's Donald Trump. It's dramatic. It's security. It's fear. It's exciting. There are lots of national emergencies we never talk about, right? We never talk. Donald, you know, Barack Obama calling the climate a crisis or that we're

in danger doesn't get the wall-to-wall coverage in the days before an election. These are conservative biases built into the liberal media. And like, I believe that there is a liberal bias in the mainstream media. It absolutely exists. But one of the blind spots is because there is this effort to seem neutral, because there is an effort to seem as though you understand what the other side cares about. You blow these things up and we forget to do the basics of covering what's actually at stake in the election. Yeah, man. Okay. Part of the problem of 2018, though, is it's not just the media. We're also seeing countless Facebook posts and viral pictures of like injured cops who are purported to have been attacked by the caravan.

But once again, it's literal fake news. There's one image that's been shared millions of times of a bloodied cop who's the image says, oh, he tangled with people in the caravan, but the photo's from 2012. And it's from CSI Miami. But that didn't stop Clarence Thomas's wife from posting it on Facebook and calling it an invasion. So, Lovett, is all our frustration with the press futile if Facebook and Twitter can't get their shit together and do something about fake news? Well, yeah.

I mean, I feel like we, I mean, there's a lot of people, right? You're listening to this. You're somebody who follows the news closely. You feel savvy. So you feel like following the news for you is trying to understand what other people are seeing, too. And that's totally reasonable. which is, as a society, are we doing a good job of informing each other of what's going on in the world? And is that information helping people make good decisions when they vote, when they make consumer purchases, when they decide what policies to support? And sadly, the answer is no. No, we are not a well-informed country. We are not having the right kinds of conversations, and it is destroying our politics every day. It is largely caused by a right-wing propaganda apparatus that fans the flames of false stories, misleading stories. But it also is happening because of the mainstream media picking up that baton.

And it's also happening because companies like Twitter and Facebook still refuse to be what they are, which is disseminators of information in which they have an incredible amount of power because of the monopolies they've built and the control they have over the information the vast majority of Americans see every day. I'd love to see a pivot to accuracy, Facebook. And I'm sick of Facebook apologizing. I'm sick of it. Fix it. The other, just one last note on the caravan. Trump is threatening to cut off aid to Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. So basically he wants to make conditions worse in the places where people are already fleeing. So good idea. You mentioned this fake tax cut the other day. So at his rally in Texas on Monday night, Trump claimed that he's going to put in place a 10% tax cut for middle income families next week. Republicans on the Hill were like, what? They know it's a lie. The White House has no detail about it. It's

totally made up. So there's like part of me that sees this and thinks, I guess maybe it's good that we're back to talking about taxes taxes because at least that's policy. But then I wonder why even report on it? Why take it seriously with when anyone who's taken a high school government class knows this can't happen? So it's interesting, right? Donald Trump is entirely impulsive and undisciplined, right? So he clearly in the moment wishes he had an answer that was something like we're going to be going for a 10 tax cut for the middle class it's a bill i support here's what

the bill is going to do he's missing that talking point he's savvy he's right he knows that the the tax cut they already passed isn't working he's that's why he's trying to change the subject to ms-13 and caravans and cabanon all the rest and and civility uh but he now if Now, if he had the wherewithal to think ahead, months ago he would have said, I think we're going to need a tax cut to talk about on the road. Let's get one out there. Let's get a proposal out there. He didn't have it, so he just made one up. That's what he's doing. He's making one up.

Now, it's a good sign, right? He realizes that this is a problem for them, that this tax cut message that Democrats have is really, really effective. So you know what? We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Donald Trump is going to be lying about health care. He's going to be lying about taxes. He's going to be lying about caravans. We should be talking about the lies he's telling on health care, and we should be talking about the lies he's telling on tax cuts, because those are the two places where we're going to win the election. And by the way, those are the substantive actual stakes of the election. Health care and taxes is actually what we're going to be legislating on next year and is

actually what the choice is over. So I am glad he's making up tax cuts. I am glad he's lying about pre-existing conditions because then we can talk about it and candidates on the trail can talk about it. Yeah. I mean, just on the substance, the House is not going to meet until after the election. So there's literally zero chance that they're going to take this up. It would take 60 votes in the Senate or a new budget. He said before November until after the election. So there's literally zero chance that they're going to take this up. It would take 60 votes in the Senate or a new budget.

He said before November and after the election. That's when we're going to be having this tax debate. Yeah. And also, this was a pretty contentious issue last time. So it's ridiculous. But generally speaking, the thing that makes me so nervous is that we are not, with the exception of this tax thing, if we can get people to focus on this, we're not closing out this election on firm ground for us. Before Kavanaugh, it was the anonymous op-ed, it was Woodward's book, it was Mueller investigation. I'm not saying those are the great issues of our time that we should be focused on, but it certainly was helpful ground for Democrats. Since Kavanaugh, it's been Kavanaugh backlash, liberal mobs, the caravan, and whatever the day's lie is. And I don't know how to

change that national narrative, but this does not feel good. It feels very bad right now. Yeah, it does. And I mean, part of the problem is there is no national leader of the Democratic Party who can be the person that's on the other half of the screen when Donald Trump is talking. Yeah. Now, the good news is locally, right, every single district in every state has a candidate or leader who is going to represent that message. And I think Democrats have been pretty disciplined about keeping it focused on the issues where Democrats are strong, which is being against cutting taxes for rich people

to cut Medicare and Social Security, protecting people from pre-existing conditions. You've seen places like Missouri where Josh Hawley is on his heels because he's claimed to be in favor of protecting people with pre-existing conditions while being one of the leads in a lawsuit designed to obliterate those protections. So, you know, we talked about this after Trump won. We're going to talk about this for the next two years. What do you do when you have someone like Donald Trump who is a savant in resting the microphone away from issues that matter from other people. We are talking about a caravan because he tested it out and it fucking worked. He is a raptor testing offenses. And when he bit the part of the fence that said caravan, he went outside the thing and picked off Gennaro. Yeah. Learned about it on Fox and Friends or Matt

Geitz's racist Twitter feed and made it a global issue. Great. This is well done, everyone. But that's it. This is the water we swim in. Trump is going to be lying about every single issue. He's lying about Saudi Arabia. He's lying about preconditions. He's lying about Medicare. He's lying about the caravan. The question is, what can we talk about to make a difference? Yeah, we've got to fight it out in these districts, got to win the ground battle. You mentioned before, this is clearly a nakedly racist appeal.

How do we know? Because he proudly told everyone at his Houston rally to call him a nationalist. Love it. Why is it bad to be a nationalist? Well, you know, he was asked later, like, did you mean this as a reference to white nationalism? He's like, oh, I've never heard that theory.

He watches cable news all day, every day. He knows that when we're talking about nationalism, it is a feign towards white nationalism. He knows that. He's illiterate about history, but he's not illiterate about what white nationalism and the word nationalism means in our politics right now. And he's very excited. And you know what? And he's very excited. And you know what? He knows that when he says the word nationalist, it is going to hit the soft spot for a lot of his base while not mattering to the Republicans who have already your values and way of life on someone else. The darkest example is Nazi Germany. But more recently, you know, Trump, all his allies talk about white nationalism. So it does feel like he's again, cozying up to the people who are marching in Charlottesville. You have groups like the Proud Boys who are a white

extremist group beating people up in New York, marching alongside the chairman of the Miami Republican Party in Florida. But like, stepping back, it's not a new strategy. Nixon had the Southern strategy. Reagan would talk about welfare queens. You had Lee Atwater and Karl Rove using nasty subterranean racial shit. Trump just screams the quiet part from the rooftops every single time. Also, Donald Trump is not a nationalist, right? Even in the positive sense of the word, every single time. Also, Donald Trump is not a nationalist, right? Even in the positive sense of the word, right? He subverts American interest constantly for his own interest.

He went to Helsinki and, you know, cozied up to Putin, who has been trying to fuck over our country for years. He is now bending over backwards at the behest of the Saudis against American interest. He over and over again puts the interest of America second to his own. That is what he does. The other piece of this is, you know, we kind of connect populism and nationalism. Donald Trump campaigns as a nationalist populist, someone who's going to defend America from foreign invaders, going to defend America from foreign trade. He has done some things on trade. But for the most part,

he campaigns as this populist, anti-immigration zealot. But what are the actual accomplishments of his administration? They are the same kind of judges that Mitt Romney or Marco Rubio would have appointed, tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, and the deregulation agenda of people like the Koch brothers. He campaigns as a populist nationalist. He governs like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. That has been the recipe from the beginning. That is what they are banking on in the midterms. And the question is, will it work?

And the honest answer is, we don't know. Yeah. Let's geek out about health care for a minute. The good news is when you ask people what they really care about, they say health care. That's why it was kind of surprising that the Trump administration took another run at the Affordable Care Act on Monday by announcing a new policy that would make it easier for states to circumvent coverage requirements and consumer protections in the bill and the law. Under this new policy, states could use federal funds to subsidize these junk plans with terrible benefits that don't protect people with pre-existing

conditions. This would not just harm people who buy these plans, potentially unravel the whole market. Love it. Why is this such a big deal? And why would you do this right before the election when you know this is what Democrats want to run on? I think they're banging on the fact that it's a little bit complicated and it'll be seen to the base as trying to get rid of Obamacare and not really registered by the rest of the country. Jonathan Cohn wrote about this in Huffington Post, which is really worth reading. Obamacare said health insurance has to cover certain things, and it has to cover everybody. The idea being that nobody knows when they're going to be the one that has a desperate healthcare emergency where they need quality, affordable care. Nobody knows when they're going to get hit with the bill that if

their insurance caps out, or if their insurance doesn't cover everything, they're financially ruined. They'll be digging out for a decade, right? Part of the reason Obamacare was passed was because one of the most common reasons people were going bankrupt in America was because of medical bills. Now, what they have tried to do is say to states, we're going to keep Obamacare in place, but if you want, you get a waiver and you get to give people shittier plans. Well, what happens if you create two pools, one with the Obamacare plans that give you all the protection you need if something goes wrong, and the skimpier plans that have caps and don't cover certain things but are cheaper. Well, healthy people take a chance and get the cheaper plans, while people with pre-existing

conditions who need care end up in the main group, which ends up being more expensive because the healthy people are no longer taking part. So what is the end result? It means more expensive care for pre-existing conditions, which they claim they're against, and a bunch of healthy people, some of whom will, because of math and bodies breaking, because we're all made of the same fucking meat, are going to end up being bankrupt and have their lives ruined because they took a chance on a skimpier plan, which they may not even have understood because of the fine print. That is the world we lived in before. So they're creating two systems. They're going to leave Obamacare in place while

creating a kind of little shunted off old system where people get fucked while raising the cost in the Obamacare system. That's what they're trying to do while claiming they're going to protect your health care. It is very purposeful. Yeah, the AC allowed states to try to innovate and offer new policies. But, you know, that coverage had to be as comprehensive as what's offered under the Affordable Care Act. So you couldn't offer these junk plans. But some of the junk plans omit maternity care, prescription drugs, mental illness treatment, drug abuse treatment, and exclude coverage for preexisting conditions. So terrible. But some good news is that states can take some positive steps to expand access to health care.

Their state legislatures can vote to expand Medicaid. There are a whole bunch of exciting ballot measures on a range of important issues. Love it. Walk us through cool stuff that you can vote for in states. Make me feel excited about this election. Let's start with health care. So 33 states expanded Medicaid through Obamacare. Basically, the way Obamacare was structured is there were new consumer protections for everybody. There was the marketplace subsidies for people who weren't in their employee plans. Then there was the Medicaid expansion,

which just sort of raised the level at which you still would become eligible for Medicaid. The assumption was every single state would jump on the Medicaid expansion. Free money. Because the way it was structured is the federal government gave you 100% and then reduced to 90% of the cost. So basically, if you expanded Medicaid,

the federal government would write you a check for every person you were expanding healthcare to, that's money coming into your state to pay for nurses, to pay for doctors, to pay for cares, to pay for jobs. So the assumption was all these states would expand it. But in one of the most cynical and vicious acts in modern political history. I do believe that. A bunch of Republican legislatures and governors decided they would rather their people not get health care for free from the federal government, even though they were already paying their taxes, to show that Obamacare was bad than admit that Obamacare did some good for their state. And it hurt a ton of people. Well, in Idaho, Nebraska, and Utah, states that refuse to extend Medicaid

under a Republican government now have it on the ballot so the voters can do what their leaders wouldn't. Medicaid expansion is incredibly popular. It is in Idaho as Proposition 2. It is in Nebraska as Initiative 427. It is in Utah as Proposition 3. So if you are in those states, these are initiatives that will actually really help people, and you can get out the vote to make sure you support expanding Medicaid. Your state's getting money to give people health care. It will help children. It will help people in need. It's a really good thing.

Can I tell you some other ones I like? Okay. Okay, so Amendment 4 in Florida would restore voting rights to ex-felons. We've talked about that. That's very cool. Voters in Arkansas and Missouri can vote to boost the minimum wage. Washington state could make it harder for cops to use deadly force. Louisiana can approve a measure that would require a unanimous jury to convict people charged with felonies. It is crazy to me that that is not currently the law.

Louisiana and Oregon are the only two states in the country that don't require a unanimous verdict for felonies. That means you can have a situation where you're in Louisiana, two jurors think you didn't do it or think there's reasonable doubt and you can still go to jail for life is Jim Crow era. Yes, it is a law with a racist history. It is a law with a racist president, but it also just hurts tons and tons of people in Louisiana. And it's actually so crazy. The Louisiana Democratic Party and Republican Party agree in passing the change. Right.

Look at that. Even and John Legend's for it. That's right. John Legend, Democrats and Republicans, when do those three things all happen at the same time? The serendipity. In Ohio, you can reduce drug possession offenses to misdemeanors. A lot of good state happening. Unfortunately, there's a bunch of bad things that are going to be on ballots this year. If you want to tick through those, love it, we can. I'm also fine not being bummed out. Look, there's a few anti-choice measures. There are a few voter ID measures that you should be aware of.

They're just across the country. There are so many ballot measures, man. So many. Ballot initiatives are tricky. And you can go to votesaveamerica.com to look up the ballot initiatives in your state. There'll be information explaining what they do and who's for them and who's against them. And who's for them and who's against them is often very useful because it's like, who's for it? The ACLU. Moms against death. And then who's for them and who's against them. And who's for them and who's against them is often very useful because it's like, who's for it? The ACLU.

Mom's against death. And then who's against it? Americans for prosperity. You know, Coke Industries, that kind of thing. It's very helpful. Yeah, they're really important. Look, I spent like an hour filling out my California ballot

because this stuff's confusing. So votesaveamerica.com. We'll walk you all through it. I promise it'll be useful. Last item to talk through quickly is there have been some interesting developments in the Jamal Khashoggi murder case that we should touch on. First of all, I don't think the Saudis anticipated just how thoroughly Turkish President Erdogan was going to call bullshit on their lies. From the very beginning, the Turks have released video of Khashoggi entering the consulate but not exiting, photos of the assassination team, they leaked the existence of secret audio recordings from inside the facility, reports of a Skype call that happened

during the assassination itself with the top minister back in Riyadh. So, you know, I think the big question I have is, do we think everything is going to go back to normal or will something change? Because they have so much money and so much influence that the cynic in me wonders that whether they will be little to no cost for this horrific act. I don't know. You know, there's so many different facets to what it would mean for Saudi Arabia to be treated differently. They marched out Khashoggi's son and made him do a photo op with MBS. Disgraceful. And seeing that photo, I have to think that there are so many respectable people in Washington for whom it was considered acceptable to interact with this government, interact with this regime, take photos with MBS, see him on the circuit,

see him in the world, who now will think otherwise because, man, making the son of someone your regime murdered do a photo op with you, someone who is not allowed to leave Saudi Arabia,

who is banned from leaving Saudi Arabia, this is not a reformer. This is not an autocrat trying to move his country into the future. This is North Korea shit. This is not an autocrat trying to move his country into the future. This is, this is North Korea shit. This is Saudi Arabia shit. And I think that photo is going to be important. You know, Adam Davidson, who's done such great reporting and writing about

the Trump administration talks a lot about moments where things change. And, you know, his theory has always been, it's fascinating that, that he believes, you know, his theory has always been, it's fascinating that he believes, you know, despite what cynics say, despite the pessimism, that at some point we will come to see Donald Trump in full and the country will reject him. He believes that. And he pointed to what's happening right now with Saudi Arabia as an example. Nobody could have foreseen that the fact that they're waging a heinous war in Yemen, that there was this bipartisan backing for this regime, right, that goes from George W. Bush to Obama to Trump,

would suddenly shift because of a murder of a journalist when they've already done so many other heinous things along the way. But things do change. And you don't need to know exactly why this is the one that turned the knob, but it may. I do not share that optimism. This big Saudi investment conference is still happening. Mohammed bin Salman was reportedly given a standing ovation. Steve Mnookin, the Treasury Secretary, skipped the conference but flew to Saudi Arabia to talk with them about stopping illicit terrorist financing. Still a big deal, but come on. Trump is still saying he's not going to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia. And he repeats this ridiculous lie that we sold them $110 billion in weapons. And the number of jobs he says that will create

goes up every other day. And it's just nonsense. I just want to read one particularly disgusting quote from the New York Times that just blew my mind this morning when I read it. Henry Biner, who I don't know, an executive at the Boston Bates PE Investment said that Mr. Khashoggi's killing was, quote, horrendous, but there were wars and atrocities occurring across the Middle East, and that the situation should not necessarily deter business ties, quote, one year from now, somebody is going to ask where the revenue is. He said, we're not going to put our relationship on the line for this. Holy shit, man. Yeah. Well, I would say that if you're like the, the moral authority that will help shift

the dynamic between the United States and Saudi Arabia will not be coming from the Trump administration, and it will not be coming from Silicon Valley and private equity firms that have financial ties to the Saudi regime. In a bizarre pool spray, Trump seemed more focused on the cover up of this murder than the crime. He said it was, quote, very bad original concept, it was carried out poorly, and the cover up was one of the worst in the history of cover-ups. And then it should have stopped, quote, at the deal standpoint. What the hell, man? Who talks about the murder of a human being that way? Yeah, it's, well, you know, he's trying to be critical without using certain words that would make it clear what he's alleging.

It's going to be a deal. Oh, this deal. What a bad deal. Murdering and torturing and dismembering a human being. That's not a deal. Yeah. NYC Southpaw said that it was like

he was judging a baking show. And that is what it's like. You know, it is Donald Trump who has the capacity to be withering and direct and use the exact right words to make his point loses those words when it becomes Saudis, when it's Putin. All of a sudden, all the edges are gone. And it's a reminder that he knows how to sand down the edges of what he says, because he

does it for autocrats and despots, never for Americans. Yeah, we're not chanting lock him up about MBS. No, he is harder on Dianne Feinstein and Megyn Kelly than he will ever be on the Saudis and Vladimir Putin. My little hobby horse on this is I just don't get why all the smart people in DC keep saying, well, the Saudis are close ally when it comes to checking Iran, so we need to work with them on that. The Saudis hate the Iranians from a longstanding cultural, religious, geopolitical place. They will hammer Iran no matter what we do, because they don't like Iran. They don't need us to do that. So what I'd love to see happen, I'd love to see Trump work with Congress under the Global Magnitsky Act to sanction the people

involved, including MBS if he was there. We should use this as a moment, an excuse to stop supplying arms that are fueling the disgraceful civil war in Yemen. There is a famine unlike anything the world has ever seen happening there. It was a disaster from the beginning. We never should have supported it. That includes Obama. And we should stop now. And we should get back in the Iran deal and signal to the world that our entire foreign policy doesn't run through Saudi Arabia and Jared Kushner, because Jared is a moron and

the Saudis are not good actors. And it would be nice to make a change here. Yeah, that's what I got. All right. Next, we're going to hear John Favreau's interview with the next governor of Florida, Andrew Gillum. Sweet. On the pod today, we are very lucky to have Florida's Democratic candidate for governor, Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum. Mayor Gillum, welcome to the podcast. Hey, John. Thanks so much for having me, man. I hope you're well. I am. I am. I hope you're well, too.

Doing good, man. We're in the final stretch here. How are you feeling? I feel great, brother. I really do. I mean, we've been on this trail for 20 months, and to be down to, you know, just a few days before Decision Day,

you know, I'm running slightly on fumes, but completely energized by, you know, by people. Brother, everywhere around this state, people are excited. I'm in Palm Beach today. They had early voting start yesterday, and the numbers already on day one were double those of day one last gubernatorial election on the first opening day of early voting. So if that is a sign,

I think it's a good one. More people voting, we believe, will result in a good election night. I sure hope it's a good sign. So help me figure out Florida politics here. In 2016, I remember looking at these early vote numbers and then Hillary basically hit her turnout numbers. But Trump won with this surge in a lot of ex-urban counties that surprised even the most veteran observers of Florida politics. What did that tell you about Florida politics? And what's your plan to sort of avoid that outcome in these last few weeks? Well, I mean, I think people vote when they feel connected to the candidate and when they feel inspired by that candidate. And, you know, in spite of the fact that I didn't feel connected and was certainly not inspired by Donald Trump, it didn't mean that others weren't. And they showed up and they showed

out. And, you know, the truth could not always necessarily be said for the range of our of our voters. I mean, nationally, we had, what, six million fewer voters vote here in the state of Florida. I heard and encountered far too many people who just did not feel like they needed to participate in the process in this way and were not moved to. I mean, one of the reasons, John, that I have gone all over this state, I mean, red areas, blue areas, purple areas, I campaigned in the villages, the most conservative voting precinct in the state of Florida. I've gone to Putnam County. Trump won it by, what, 30 points? Flagler County, nearly the same margin.

And we're going there and we're drawing huge crowds of people there because folks, you know what? They want to be asked for their vote. And a lot of people are not happy with the state of affairs right now. They feel left out and ignored, and the promises that they felt were being made to them have not really come to pass in many of their lives. In the state of Florida, 44 percent of people say they can't make ends meet. Almost half the state. We got 67 counties and 36 of those

counties are economically worse off today than they were in 2007. That's real. And we're trying to talk to that. We're trying to speak to that. And so my election and frankly, the way we're competing, the strength that we're showing, I think is a product of not that everybody agrees with me on every single issue. It is that they are seeing themselves reflected. And they believe that regular working people deserve a seat at the table. And we're trying to provide that. So I want to talk about your debate with Ron DeSantis last weekend. At the end, you made one of the best closing statements I've heard from a Democrat

in a debate as long as I can remember. And in that statement, you said, in Trump's America, we've been led to believe that we've got to step on our neighbor's shoulder and their back and their face in order to get ahead. Well, I reject that. And I found that fascinating because you hear this debate out there about whether Democrats should take on Trumpism by sounding like Trump and using Trump tactics. And you seem to reject that and that closing argument. Why? Well, I mean, I could only be real. And for me, I do feel like Trump is attempting to divide Americans by this

sort of bro-man, frat-boy approach to, you know, sock them, hit them, kick them. He's a strong man. He body-slammed it, it's this elementary, immature, divisive, really undeserving kind of rhetoric, undeserving of who we are as a country and as a people. And, you know, I've tried to make the calculation that I'm not going to be able to do what Donald Trump does and prevail the way he has prevailed. I've got to be me. And what's consistent with who I am and who I have been is that I'm going to tell the truth because my grandmother always said, when you tell the truth, you don't have to worry about covering up for lies. I'm going to wear

whatever the anointing is that my grandmother would place on me. I'm going to wear it. I'm going to wear it proudly and unapologetically. And I'm also going to speak the truth when it comes to even people like Donald Trump. He doesn't scare me. I'm not intimidated by him. I think he gets his, you know, he gets his chest, you know, popped out when he's basically bullying people. And I think the best way to respond to that is not by necessarily trying to outdo him, but to do you, to do us. And so in my closing remarks, I basically just tried to reflect what the values are that I ascribe to, and at the same time, by letting him know that I'm not going to be a shrinking violent in the face of the kind of abnormality that he has

put into the public discourse. Yeah. You said in the primary that you were up against decades of muscle memory around what candidates are supposed to look and sound like, and that even progressives can have that muscle memory. What should Democrats learn from you about what electability really means, or how much value we place in electability? Well, I mean, I tried to show even in our primary, right, I did not look like sound like didn't come from what people think the Democratic nominee is supposed to look like, sound like come from. We raised $6 million to my combined opponents, over $90 million raised spend. There wasn't a single poll showing us leading, yet we won that election. In the after analysis, what we found and what I was feeling on the ground all along, we had 150,000 people turn out to vote who either, one, were voting for the first time,

or two, hadn't voted in the previous three elections. 150,000. The Democrat lost the race for governor the last two times by fewer than 70,000 votes. We are intent on changing the electorate. If there was a message I think that I would share with our party, it is, one, people are not looking for perfect. They're looking for real. And the more we try to, you know, perpetrate this, you know, this image that we've got it all together and we've got it all right and our solutions are the best ones and we have the monopoly on the right answer. It's not real. And people sense that. They suss it out almost immediately. And so, you know, I try to disarm people by letting them know, look,

I'm going to have to come to you. I need you. I can't get there without you. And when I get there, I need you to work with me. And more than anything, I need you to hold me accountable. We're in this thing together. And I, you know, in me. And more than anything, I need you to hold me accountable. We're in this thing together. And I, you know, in all different parts of the state, I try to basically level by being common. And some folks have asked me, you know, why did you lean into race so hard, you know, when you said I was born black? Listen, my opponent is leaning into it. He's trying to shy away from it in public. But in every single way, everything they are attempting to seed about me and suggest about me is playing on a racial stereotype. So if I let that sit in the recesses of people's minds rather than calling it to the forefront,

then what may happen is these folks may walk away and say, wow, he's a smart guy, but hey, can we elect a black guy? I want them to know, look, I know a black. Like, that's not a thing. If you're caught up, you know, that is what it is. But it's nothing to me. So now that we've established that, let's get to the fact that we need to pay teachers what they're worth. Let's get to the fact that if we expand Medicaid, we can pull down $6 billion from the federal government. That right now, our governor is giving away to other states because we philosophically disagree with Obamacare, with the ACA. It doesn't make sense.

The job of the governor is to do what's in the best interest of the people of the state. That's what I intend on doing. And then that just removes it, right? It takes down the wall. And so, you know, and that was, I didn't study that. I didn't poll that. I just instinctually felt, I don't want people walking away and saying, I really like this guy, but could that be possible? Can we do that? And so you called it to the forefront. Yeah, well, speaking of calling it to the forefront, like, how do you think Democrats should handle this very predictable late turn by Trump to start talking about, you know, a scary caravan of immigrants and Middle Eastern, all of this bullshit that are coming to invade America. Like, do you, because, you know, there's one school of thought, okay,

Democrats can't take the bait, we got to keep talking about healthcare, the economy, taxes, all that stuff. And then, but then, you know, as you just mentioned, do you need to just take it on first, before then you start pivoting to those other issues? Yeah, I mean, and I look, I am, issues. Yeah, I mean, and look, I'm in no position to advise someone in Arizona or in, you know, quite frankly, in border states, Texas and otherwise, on how to deal with what is probably going to be a pretty tricky political, you know, dynamic for them. You know, I'm in Florida. And what I can say is what we said is that we have to live our values, right? I mean, for us, we have an immigration problem in this country where 20 million people are living in uncertain and undocumented status.

Our Congress has done nothing about that. They ought to do their jobs, right? But what I have also said is in the state of Florida, we are not going to turn the state into a show-me-your-paper state. We're not going to go into neighborhoods and communities based off the way somebody looks and tell them to produce their papers. We don't do that. That's not who we are. In a state where we have over 800,000 undocumented folks, we're not about to terrorize communities and neighborhoods through stereotyping and profiling. But I will say this, if you break the law, if you commit murder, if you are a burglar, look, you will pay the consequences of breaking the law. But through your personhood, you are not a quote-unquote illegal. Illegal is not a noun, right? And when we allow that kind of language to be spoken, we sort of give a quiet nod to the

fact that that's okay. It isn't. It isn't. People use that language to dehumanize, right? Because if you can stop people from feeling sympathy with other humans without being able to see other people as human, then you can do anything to them. And so I think, look, people have to navigate it in a way that feels true and real to them. To me, you know, we've got to navigate in my state the fact that they think I'm, you know, Mr. Break the Law and, you know, all this other stuff that they say, God knows I don't want to give life to it, but all the stuff that they say, I've got to let them know.

Anti-police? No. I'm for police accountability. But look, law enforcement society cannot work, and quite frankly, law enforcement can't do its job if it does not have a trusting relationship with the community. At the time that a law enforcement official has to go to a weapon, to a gun, to a baton, to a taser, then they have already had to go too far. By their very presence, by the very trust that they inspire in community and in society,

they're supposed to be able to bring most situations to heel. So what I'm in favor of is repairing the breach, making sure that there is good community relationship. But the other side, they go to culture wars because culture wars, unfortunately, have worked. And what we've got to do is not become timid about offering what our other vision in response to that is. Right. Yeah. Well, so you were 23 years old when you were first elected to the Tallahassee City Commission.

You've said that this younger generation of Americans aren't necessarily single-issue voters. Why do you think young people haven't turned out in bigger numbers in the past, and what do you think motivates them now? Well, I'll tell you, I mean, you referenced my running and winning when I was 23. I will tell you, I camped out on the two colleges that exist in my city. People were like, what are you doing wasting your time? You people don't vote, blah, blah, blah. Nine students voted on FSU's campus in the last election on the campus precinct, right? They were all right about that. But my theory was, listen, we're not voting because you ain't asking. If you don't ask, you can't get it. And so, you know, what I've done, even in this campaign, we were campaigning in places where people did not expect us. I was hanging out in barbershops and at Little Lean Gang because they are the most well-attended

events that you can find in some cities, right? Talking to people and folks appreciated me being willing to meet them where they were. Young people will vote when we go out and we have something to say to them. When they feel compelled enough, that voting will actually make a difference in their lives. And quite frankly, it's not just young people. There are a lot of communities who right now, you know, have given up on the process because they've seen the process fail them repeatedly. They have watched and have participated even in some elections where they've been convinced and sold a bill of bads and then nothing changes for them. So we're really having

to reshape people's belief in this system, a system that they believe no longer works for them. So we're really having to reshape people's belief in this system, a system that they believe no longer works for them. It isn't that they don't understand that voting is important. They know that. The problem is that they vote and then nothing changes. And then that builds the kind of resistance to the process and to politics that is the death nail of the Democratic Party because we rely on those constituencies to help get us over. Well, we've got to rely on them not just to get us elected, but in the governing process and trust them enough to be honest with them. To say this is a hard thing that we're going to have to do,

and I need you with me to get it done. Right. You have a role to play. And I think we sometimes try to make this thing sound so sexy and simple. And if you elect me, I will. And then people are like, well, you didn't do it. And now I'm not going. Right. I'm not believing and I'm not voting again. So we've created this cycle. We've created this system. It's been self-fulfilling in so many ways. And so, you know, my tactic is to go there, to be honest, to level with people and to ask them for their vote and their partnership. Well, it's certainly refreshing and I really hope it works. Mayor Gillum, thank you so much for joining us and do me a favor in these last couple of weeks and bring it home, okay? That's it, man. All the way, John. Thanks so much, man.

Big fan. Keep it up. That's all we got for Pod Save America. Please tune in on Friday to HBO to see our show from Philly. You better watch HBO. We'll be in Philly. We're going to be in Philly. We're going to do fun stuff.

Look, we worked out the kinks in Miami. The Austin show was great. We're excited for the third. We're excited for the Philly show because now we hit our stride. Tune in. It's fun. We were on Colbert last night and he was like, oh, you're doing four? Get a job. He really shits shit on us. Well deserved.

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