Pod Save America - “Cheney Reaction.”

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Republicans purge Liz Cheney then meet with Joe Biden, Tucker Carlson launches an anti-vax crusade on Fox, and a look at this year’s Virginia gubernatorial race, including Dan’s interview with one of the Democratic candidates, Jennifer Carroll Foy. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's pod, Republicans purge Liz Cheney, then meet with Joe Biden. Tucker Carlson goes on an anti-vax crusade. And a look at this year's Virginia gubernatorial race, including Dan's interview with one of the Democratic candidates, Jennifer Carol Foy. But first, check out the latest episode of Pod Save the World, where Tommy and Ben talk to Palestinian journalist Rula Jabril about the escalating tensions in Israel and Gaza. All right, let's get to the news.

House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy had a banner day on Wednesday, Dan. He woke up, went to work, overthrew Liz Cheney because she believes Joe Biden is the legitimate winner of the 2020 election, went to the White House, talked to Joe Biden for 90 minutes about infrastructure, walked out of the White House, got a question about the big lie, and then said this. But I don't think anybody is questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election. I think that is all over with. We're sitting here with the president today. No, of course not. Why would anyone think that? Here's another clip.

And President Trump won this election, so everyone who's listening, you believe in every legal vote needs to count. You believe in the American process. Join together and let's stop this. about what comes next for the Never Trump movement. Liz Cheney hasn't ruled out a presidential bid. More than 100 Republican officials also released a letter this morning threatening to form a third party. That's right, it's a letter. They released a letter, Dan. Strongly worded at that.

So what, you think this is the end for the GOP? What do you... I mean, I don't even know what to say at this point. If you haven't left the Republican Party yet, what is stopping you? We live in a two-party system. For better or for worse, it is clearly for worse when one of those parties goes off the deep end. But the only way to stop the authoritarian march in the Republican Party is not to write a letter, not a letter organized by Anonymous, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, that's right. Miles Taylor. Yes. Organized the letter. The way to stop the Republican Party is to help the Democrats beat the Republican Party so fucking bad they have no other choice other than to change what they are doing and abandon Trumpism. But they are not going to change because people who already don't like them keep reiterating that in media outlets not read or trusted by Republican voters. So come on, people, get on board. Like Liz Cheney has like all of the least popular policy positions. She's like a neocon who loves tax cuts. And she now doesn't like Donald Trump.

There's nothing in the Republican base that loves anything about Liz Cheney or a lot of the never Trumpers. And look, I appreciate what a lot of the never Trumpers are trying to do. I appreciate that they have risked their careers to to try to do anything to stop Donald Trump. but they have no constituency. They have no constituency. Their constituency is like, like resistance accounts and like some panelists on MSNBC. Like, I'm just sorry. There's no, there is no constituency within the Republican party for some anti-Trump movement. We've known this for a while now. So when everyone's like, oh, it's a huge like, look, it is a huge deal that that they ousted Cheney. But it doesn't mean that Cheney suddenly has more power to shape the Republican Party. I just don't see any evidence of that. Well, I guess it says a lot about how

sort of Washington, D.C. media works, that the ousting of Cheney was the moment that so many of them were like, oh, these people are seriously nuts. They really don't need democracy. It wasn't the millions of people who were being disenfranchised all across the country or all the other things they said. It was when the daughter of a vice president from the most establishment Republican family other than the Bushes gets tossed. They're like, oh, this could affect us, right? It was sort of like when Ron DeSantis signed his voter suppression

bill only on Fox and Friends and all the reporters were like, oh, the anti-democracy thing is bad for me too. So we haven't gotten that. Now, the one thing I would say about Liz Cheney is not going to be president of the United States. She is not going to win the Republican nomination. She's not going to win the Democratic nomination. I do wonder if there were, if Trump were to run again, if there were a, if she were to run as an independent, whether that would actually be helpful in defeating Trumpism, much in the way in which a third party candidates who align themselves essentially against Hillary Clinton became a place for people to go who were uncomfortable with her and Trump. And so I think that's just something to think about in 2024 is

that an independent independent bid, we will be because of the way these things work, it's very possible that there could be a similar uptick in third party voting. And that could that could make it if it's a good either way, right? You could have a problem on our side, too. Yeah. And I will say, to be fair, because I was just saying I haven't seen much evidence. There was one piece of evidence. Axios released a focus group with about 14 people who voted for Trump in 2016 and then voted for Biden in 2020, nine of which said they would consider voting for a Republican in 2022 midterm. So nine Biden voters from 2020 who say they might vote for Republican in the midterm should be a flag for all of us. But all of them but one, I think, said that they strongly disagreed with the Republican Party purging Cheney. They think it was bad. They

think it makes them followers. They think it makes them just like followers of Trump with no mind of their own. So I don't think it was it wasn't approved by at least some Republicans, some swingy Republicans. But is that like are they going to remember that in 2022? Is that going to be enough to make sure they vote for Democrats? I am doubtful. But of course, we'll see how this. Well, no, no. Let's be sure no one is going to remember this by the time the 2022 election comes around. Oh, that I am confident about. Donald Trump was impeached in early spring of 2020, and no one remembered it when he went to the polls.

So I don't think the ousting of a member who most people have never heard of in a job most people have never heard of is going to make a huge difference in 2022. But it's more what it says about the Republican Party and the other things they're going to do because of this. Because what it really is, is a way- I guess what I mean is like, will the ongoing radicalization of the Republican Party have an effect on the 2022 terms? For sure. And the thing we should all be scared about is essentially what they did is they put Liz Cheney's head on a pike as a message to all other Republicans that you either get on board with election theft or you get purged. And so that's the thing that is the most scary. I think the most telling statement

yesterday was from a Republican congressman from Florida, Representative Byron Donalds. He said, if you had a member of the Democratic leadership and said they didn't believe in climate change anymore, do you think they would still remain in Democratic leadership? I don't think so. Checkmate, Congressman Donaldald's you got us it's just it's so telling because it's like what for them what's most important is that the rank and file says the same thing and believes the same thing as the leadership even though it's patently false they don't understand that his analogy in his analogy like if a democrat didn't believe in climate change, we wouldn't want them in leadership because they don't believe something that's true.

Every time there is one of these hearings or one of these things happens, there's a new member of Congress, Republican member of Congress that I discover that I've never heard of that I find out is also fucking nuts. Like you kind of think, you know, all the there's like Louie Gohmert and Paul Gosar and you know, the crazy ones. But no, there is a whole other batch of anonymous lunatics out there. I got I got one that we found out yesterday. This is on the day that Liz Cheney is purged for embracing the fact that Joe Biden is a legitimate president and trying to speak out against Donald Trump's role in inciting an insurrection. At a hearing on the January 6th attack on the Capitol that happened yesterday, the same day that Cheney gets purged, Republican Congressman Andrew Clyde from Georgia.

Who is he? Never heard of him before. Now, he said, quote, If you didn't know the TV footage was a video from January the 6th, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit. He thought it was a tour. Yeah, no. What I saw on January 6th, that definitely looked like a tourist visit. Usually with tourist visits, they threaten to hang the vice president and violently assault the Capitol. That is typically what a tour group does. Look, we've been in this pandemic for a long time.

People may not remember what it was like when we gathered in crowds, but it wasn't like that. It wasn't like that. All right, let's go back to Wednesday's White House meeting. Kevin McCarthy also told reporters afterwards that canceling Trump's corporate tax cuts to help pay for the American jobs plan is a red line that Republicans won't cross.

And just minutes after the meeting ended. So the meeting ends. Kevin McCarthy walks out. You know, he says, oh, of course, Joe Biden is a legitimate president. Says, oh, we had a good talk for 90 minutes. He sends out a fundraising text just minutes after the meeting ends that says, quote, I just met with corrupt Joe Biden. And he's still planning to push his radical socialist agenda onto the American people. It sounds to me like somebody is ready to make a deal. What do you think? I mean, we should just ask the producers to keep their eye on the ticker

because it's possible infrastructure could get done while we're recording. We are so close because John infrastructure is calling. Nancy Pelosi tweeted something with the hashtag infrastructure is calling, which is I don't. Why are we using that? What does that mean? What? That is so many letters. Hashtags are dumb. What does that mean? Anyway, how much more performative bipartisanship do you think Biden has to do before Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are ready to pass this bill without Republicans? or Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are ready to pass this bill without Republicans?

I think we should stipulate that Joe Biden sincerely would like a bipartisan deal. I think he thinks it would be good for the country. I think he thinks it would be good for the Senate and maybe foster some working relationship, some other things like police reform, et cetera. I think he thinks it would be good for him politically if he were to run for election. It's like a real proof point about his dealmaking and his unity message. But I don't think he has any shred of naivete about the odds of it. And what all this is about is getting to the point, as you hinted in your question, where Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin can either convince themselves or feel comfortable going back to their voters that they tried everything possible and the

Republicans wouldn't come on board. Because there's an article in Politico today, there are people pushing like, just go, just go, just go. Why are you doing this? The reason they're doing it is they do not have 50 votes to do this on budget reconciliation yet. And you're not going to get that until you get Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema. And they feel compelled for reasons that are sort of befuddling to me, but I don't get a vote here, to try as hard as they can in bipartisanship. And then we still don't know if they'll get to yes, but they're not going to get to yes before that point.

So this meeting had to happen. The meeting that Biden is having with Republicans today has to happen. Republicans have to come back with a counteroffer that is insufficient, and then we can go from there. I also just don't know, even if everyone was doing this in good faith and wanted to come to an agreement, how you get to yes when Republicans have, so Republicans have drawn a red line on taxes. They will not, it will not support any kind of tax increases to pay for this plan um they want they want user fees to pay for the for the plan again which is a tax increase on working and middle class people uh as opposed to uh taking away tax

cuts for the rich but anyway so they want user fees so let's say then you say okay no tax hikes on the rich and also no user fees neither side side really wants to add to the deficit and pass this plan without paying for it. Right. I mean, Biden has said he Biden hasn't ruled it out, but he said he's resistant to that. Republicans have said they don't want to add to the deficit. So how else do you pass the plan? How else do you come to a bipartisan agreement? Yeah. I mean, it is not possible. And substantively, I understand the political concerns, both the small board political concerns within trying to get a bunch of moderate Democrats in the House and the Senate to support a debt finance plan. But if there was ever a time or a thing to finance, to debt finance, it's infrastructure, where you pay for it now and you benefit from it for decades. That would be the right thing to do. I don't think that's achievable with these narrow margins in the House and Senate, which is why we're not doing it.

The user fee Republican plan is something that we should drive a truck through in this conversation. Look, I said this – I talked about this on Monday with Tommy. We're talking about it today. I haven't heard a lot of people, Democrats, hammer this user fee thing. This is like a fucking gift. Are you kidding me? Joe Biden and the Democrats want to ask highly profitable corporations in America's wealthiest to pay for infrastructure. The Republicans want you to pay for it while protecting tax breaks for corporations and billionaires. Come on. We don't have to poll that one.

I know how that's going to go. I'm no pollster. I'm no pollster, but I would hazard a guess how that one would turn out. I was wondering how, like, I know they're meeting probably right now as we record Biden and Shelley Moore Capito and some other Republican senators about her counteroffer. I'm guessing that they pay for that by just doing some accounting tricks and saying they're moving around unspent CARES money or blah, blah, blah. Probably stuff that just adds to the deficits Republicans want to pretend that it won't. So I could see some kind of fuzzy math there by saying,

oh, we didn't add to the deficit because we used unspent funds and we still didn't raise taxes. But it still seems like it still seems like quite a stretch. Well, it's also fake because let's say that Biden and Capito and these Republicans come to a deal on 700 billion dollars in infrastructure. And we come up with some pay for that. Everyone's fine with whatever you do it. But if you're the Republicans, I don't even understand why the Republicans would do that. Because if coming right on the tail, like the Biden's next plan is to pass a $2 trillion American families plan, plus all the other stuff from the American jobs plan that wasn't included in the bipartisan deal on a party line vote, like what is the incentive for that? What the Republicans are trying to do here, I think, is two things. And this is why there

should be a clock on this. The first is they also have to show people that they are trying to do something, right? They cannot win the House and the Senate on the insurrectionist vote alone. And so they have to look – like there's so much people like the ones in the focus group you mentioned who naturally default, quite stupidly in my view, but naturally default to divided government. And so they have to show that they are a worthy vehicle for some sort of governmental opposition to Biden. And if all you do is oust Liz Cheney and do a bunch of anti-vaccination shit and seem crazy, that's less likely. The second thing they're trying to do is burn clock. They have a better chance of winning the election, the less stuff Biden does.

And every day that Biden's not passing something is a day that he is not going to get back. And so that is why the longer they can drag out these negotiations, oh, you want to meet on Wednesday, President Biden? Sorry, I'm busy. Can we meet the following Wednesday? Is another week where the Senate is not legislating on the Biden agenda. And so this is where you have to make this very tough call about when have you done enough to prove to Sinema Manchin, and frankly, others, I think, that you tried and it is impossible? And when have you tried too long to the point that some important parts of your agenda are going to fall by the wayside because you ran out of time? I think the only incentive for Republicans to reach a bipartisan deal on infrastructure is they might think that if they get a big bipartisan

deal passed on infrastructure, it will take the wind out of the sails of the American families plan in the eyes of perhaps Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema and other moderate Democrats. And so then those Democrats say, oh, we just passed a huge infrastructure bill with Republicans, bipartisan win for everyone. We got some of Biden's agenda passed. Are we really going to do this Democrats only American families plan with all of this stuff that Republicans don't like? And let's keep pushing it aside. And so then maybe you take away that second win from Biden. That might be the only that would be the argument for that. I agree with that with one amendment, which is, I don't think it's the American Families Plan they're worried about. I think it's the For the People Act and the John Lewis Voting Rights Act.

That's what they ultimately, they really care about is being able to create a context that makes it impossible for Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema to agree to some sort of filibuster reform on something like that. If we pass the American Families Plan, I'm sure they disagree with a lot of our principle. They'd also don't want Joe Biden to have that win. That is stuff that can be repealed and undone in some way, shape, or form. But as we know, as we've talked about 100 times, their chances of taking the House has dramatically increased by failure to pass the For the People Act. And if you can prove bipartisanship before then, you can run out the clock, in particular, on the partisan gerrymandering ban in the For the People Act.

So even if Biden and Schumer and Pelosi decide to pass this thing with only Democrats, The Washington Post reported this week that Biden's tax plans are making some congressional Democrats nervous and that they're hearing from donors who are anxious about the political ramifications of raising taxes before the midterms. The story says that Congressman Sean Maloney, who's the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the DCCC, has privately warned that tax plans

could hurt vulnerable House Democrats up for re-election in 2022. Well, if the donors say so, Dan, what do you think? I know you wrote a message box about this on Wednesday. Yes, I think this is insane. It is truly one of the craziest things I've ever heard. To give the benefit of the doubt to Congressman Mulaney, this is an anonymous report. He hasn't said this publicly. We don't know what all of the reasoning is. I have no doubt that a lot of moderate Democrats have told the DCCC this, they've told Nancy Pelosi this, they believe this. We know this because they consistently unburden themselves anonymously to Politico and Axios and other people.

Always helpful. Always helpful. Never stops being helpful. Yeah. And as we always say, develop an inner monologue, people. But every bit of common sense and every bit of polling says that if Democrats were to walk away from a big fight over raising the corporate tax rate and raising taxes on people who make over $400,000, we'd be walking away from probably our single best message for holding on to the majority that is available to us. It would be a historic case of self-sabotage were we to do that. I want to give just one poll number on this. And I know we have some other polling to talk about in a second. But in an April poll from Navigator, which is a Democratic polling consortium that does a lot of really good work, Democratic polling consortium that does a lot of really good work. The Biden plan to raise taxes on people making over $400,000 a year is supported by a majority of Republicans who make under $50,000

a year. And so we talk about this a lot, but a huge strategic imperative for the Democrats is to drive a wedge in the Republican coalition by showing their working class voters that the policies of the party are pro-corporation, pro-Wall Street, and being paid for by the working class. And so here we have a policy that is supported by a majority of working class Republican voters, and walking away from it would be just a gigantic mistake. I don't understand it. Yeah, we, you know, we have brand new polling with our friends at Data for Progress. We just conducted an exclusive poll on this very topic. You can find it on crooked.com right now. Go take a look.

We wanted to test the American jobs plan in the American families plan, which are both wildly popular in this poll between 60 and 70 percent support, depending on how you frame it. But then we asked people, no poll has done this yet, we asked people to pick the three provisions that they think are most important to include in the final bill out of all the many provisions

in the American Families Plan and the American Jobs Plan. And so we wanted to know what people found most important, what they liked the most. Here's what topped the list. Lower the cost of health care premiums, lower the cost of prescription drugs, repair roads, bridges and highways, clean water. So lead pipes and very popular reform corporate taxes to remove loopholes and ensure corporations pay their fair share. That was the number three most

important priority, not just for Democratic voters, but for independents and Republicans. Here's what I don't understand, Dan. The DCCC, they hire all these Democratic consultants. They hire all these Democratic pollsters. It's not like they're looking at completely different polling. Where are they getting this from? To me, I wonder if it's not what that what they're scared of, what these moderate members are scared of. And some of these consultants and pollsters are not the message that, you know, Democrats want to raise taxes on the rich and Republicans want to raise taxes on you, but that they're afraid of the Republican lie about our message, which is that Joe Biden wants to raise everyone's taxes.

Yeah, I think that's probably right. And that lie is coming, whether we pass the corporate tax cut or not. Of course, yeah. It is very easy to trick yourself into saying Republicans lie so we can do whatever we want. There are no political consequences for that. And that is simply not true. We have learned that that is not true in the last election. Yes. true. We have learned that that is not true in the last election. Yes. But the importance of the corporate tax pay for here is you need to be able to tell a story about why Republicans oppose something that voters assume everyone supports. And this is the trap Republicans have walked themselves into, which is they say they agree with Joe Biden that we need to rebuild our roads

and bridges and our infrastructure. And the only reason that they will not work with Joe Biden that we need to rebuild our roads and bridges and our infrastructure. And the only reason that they will not work with Joe Biden to create these good-paying jobs that they say are so necessary is because they are unwilling to ask corporations to pay one single dollar in additional taxes. They are unwilling to close loopholes for companies that ship jobs overseas. We joke about this all the time, but that's the single most popular message in every campaign we've worked on in two decades. I almost hope that we leave that out of the final bill just so we can run on it again, but that's probably a little cynical.

We will, either way, either way we will. That's right, that's right. And so, but you need to be able to tell a story about, we are going to win these elections in 2022 and going forward by making sure that voters understand the Republicans are fighting for corporations. You need a story with good guys and bad guys and who you're fighting for. And we lose that if we cannot demonstrate their opposition is because of their fealty

to their corporate donors. I am really just befuddled by this anxiety and that Washington Post story on the tax issue. If you are a Democratic consultant, a pollster, a strategist, a member of Congress who thinks that our analysis here is wrong, please come on Pod Save America and tell us why. I want to hear why. I realize it's not as fun as anonymously speaking to the Washington Post. That is that is a real trip. But just come on. We'll have a conversation about it because I can't understand it. It is literally the most popular issue.

The most popular issue I can imagine is like tax hikes on the rich. Not even tax hikes. It's like protecting. The way I was framing it when I started talking about it was it's protecting Trump tax cuts for the rich. I can't imagine anything less popular than protecting Trump tax cuts for the rich. I can't imagine anything less popular than protecting Trump tax cuts for the rich. I mean, you know who is also befuddled by this? Joe Biden. I'm sure.

I'm sure the White House is like, what the fuck is wrong with these people? I mean, he leaned into it aggressively at a White House event last week. His pollster retweeted my message box piece about it in case there was any subtlety about how they feel about it. It just common sense politics. Bizarre. Anyway, come on, come on, Pod Save America, any of you nervous Democrats.

One place where the Biden administration is making great progress is their vaccination program, the pace of which has once again picked up over the last few days after falling for a little bit. Nearly 60% of the eligible population has now received at least one dose. One of the big challenges now is reaching people who may be hesitant about taking the vaccine, partly due to the rampant spread of disinformation like this. More deaths have been connected to the new COVID vaccines over the past four months than to all previous vaccines combined over a period of more than 15 years. Very same system, very different results.

So Tucker Carlson has been doing this almost every night for the last three weeks, telling millions of people that according to government data, nearly 4,000 Americans have died after getting the COVID vaccine. And so they shouldn't feel pressure to get it. This made me very angry. So I tweeted that Tucker is using his show to spread anti-vax conspiracies. And then Fox News senior political analyst, Brate Hume, replied to me that my statement was flat out false and that Tucker was just asking questions about the risks of vaccines based on government data. Dan, do you want to try answering those questions for Tucker that he's just asking? It's like where to begin. Let's begin by telling people why he was so wrong.

I feel like that's where we should start. Then we can talk all about the political ramifications and what a fucking asshole he is. Let's begin by telling people why he was so wrong. I feel like that's where we should start. Then we can talk all about the political ramifications and what a fucking asshole he is. Okay. What Tucker Carlson is doing is using data from a self-reported database about the effects of vaccines. This database has been, which serves real purpose for people who care about science and truth, but has been abused by the anti-vax movement for a very long time, even predating COVID. Basically, but the most important point here is that this database says that, indicates that some number of people died after having the vaccine. Not that they died because they took the vaccine.

When you vaccinate tens of millions of people, some of them are going to die, just as like when millions of people get their car washed. Some of them die after getting their car washed. They didn't die because they got their car washed. You could do this with almost anything. This is a deeply dangerous propaganda tactic that people use, conspiracy theorists use all the time to take A and B and try to explain how it equals C when they're two completely separate things. Yeah, this is about the vaccine adverse event reporting system that the government runs. Basically, it's this system where anytime someone dies who has had the vaccine, you can report it. Or if you're just an anti-vax conspiracy, you can report it. The system does not verify any

of the data or any of the stories. It just has it as an open source thing for anyone to look at. And then it starts researching each story to see if there's any link. And in fact, the CDC did research all of the stories about people possibly dying after the vaccine and said, quote, a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. So the government says there is no link at all after looking at all the data. And otherwise, you have unverified data floating around on a website that Tucker Carlson and anti-vaxxers are using to sow doubts about the vaccine.

8,000 people die in the United states every day of all kinds of causes so the fact that nearly 4 000 americans have died who happen to also get the covid vaccine which now a third of the country has received doesn't tell you much especially because the first people that we vaccinated are elderly and frail people who have a lot of conditions. So of course, a lot of them are going to die of natural causes anyway, because they're very, very old. And this is what Tucker Carlson is doing. Now, why don't you think any of Fox's so-called straight news reporters don't point out that their colleague is spreading misinformation that could cause people to get sick and die. Some of them probably agree with Tucker Carlson.

I mean, it's a self-selecting audience of people who join a propaganda network that shills for a dangerous authoritarian president profits off of racial division and conspiracy theories. So it's not a representative sample of American journalists or the American public. But the other reason is they are replaceable. They work for Tucker Carlson. He makes the money. He is the one they can't fire. So Brett Baier, someone who is sometimes lauded by journalists as he's a serious, you know, maybe he's a little conservative, but he's a serious journalist. Tucker Carlson's audience is three times Brett Baier's.

Fox News can hire anyone to replace Brett Baier. Any, they can put John Roberts in there. They could put Bill Hemmer in there. No one cares. There's no constituency for Bill Hemmer outside of the people who make the invite list for book parties in Washington, D.C., right? No one cares about Brett Baer. So he is replaceable. And if Brett Baer or Brit Hume or any of these other straight news reporters were to be fired, they will not work in major television

again. They are damaged goods. Maybe they can get a job co-hosting a panel show with Mark Halperin on Newsmax, but that is it. Megyn Kelly went to NBC, took a whole bunch of money, lit herself on fire, and got fired and now hosts a podcast, which is a very, obviously, a very serious line of work. Hey, easy, easy. Whoa. Shep Smith left Fox with real credibility because he was the one news reporter who stood up to Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity for some of their lies. He went to CNBC. He got paid a ton of money. No one watches his show, as far as I can tell.

And so this is it. If you want to be, they have nowhere to go in television if they leave Fox. And Fox does not care. Tucker Carlson makes the money. Sean Hannity makes the money. Laura Ingraham makes the money. Sean Hannity makes the money. Laura Ingraham makes the money. These guys are just they are propaganda adjacent. They are just there to try to launder the propaganda into the mainstream by pretending to be news reporters. And so they're the thing is annoying is they've all been vaccinated.

They're all. Oh, yeah. I was going to say that. Yeah. Like and we know this because some of them have actually spoken about it on air. I was going to say that. Yeah. Like, and we know this because some of them have actually spoken about it on air. Brett bear has been vaccinated. The, the,

the cast of the five Jesse waters on that crew has been vaccinated. Yeah, no, they're the Murdoch's, but Rupert Murdoch, who owns the whole fucking poisonous empire was one of the first people to get the vaccine, which is a sign that there is something wrong with the universe.

Oh my God. Oh, I should note to everyone that, um, what you said about Brett Baer and him just, you know, being a teleprompter reader, essentially, um, you, you did tweet that and that caused you to immediately get blocked by look, you got when these, you know, these free speech, anti-cancel culture warriors who uh you know they don't want to be in their safe spaces the only thing i would say brett bear and i have never liked each other we have our distaste for each other goes back a decade i uh would never really pretend that he was the serious journalist that he thought he was and at least from him blocking me i know he read my tweet.

So I have that. I'll sleep well at night knowing that. What's really insidious about what Tucker is doing, and Ron Johnson is doing it as well, America's dumbest senator. He's doing it on Tucker's show. On Tucker's show, right? So there's a whole bunch of people doing this. And the insidious part of what they're doing is they're not just out there saying don't take the covid vaccine i'm

against it i'm an anti-vaxxer because they know that that's that's too much and that they're not going to be persuasive and so what they do is they just throw out that i'm just asking questions brit hume yelling at me tucker's just asking questions he's not anti-vax he's just asking some questions so then of course this like random twitter person replies to to the argument that brit hume and i are having and and writes thank you tucker carlson and brit hume for stepping up and talking about this i feel like the vaccines will cause a lot of deaths and do not want any of my family to take them congratulations brit hume and tucker carlson you've convinced another person not to take a life-saving vaccine.

That's what you've done. Congratulations. It's real. I mean, look, and Tucker says he's just asking questions. Invite someone on the show who can answer your questions. During this Twitter exchange too, Dr. Craig Spencer at Columbia University, he said he's tried to contact Tucker's producers multiple times, that he'd go on the show and talk about it.

Tucker, anyone at Fox News, Brett Baier, Chris Wallace, any of you so-called straight news reporters, do us a favor. Book someone on one of your shows who can talk about the safety of vaccines, a medical expert, a public health expert. If you're not if you're not if you're just asking questions and you're not afraid of the answers, then you would happily have someone on your show to give the answers. That's what you would do unless you just want to spread anti-vax conspiracies. I'm going to hold my breath. I'm going to hold my breath. All right. We want to end by talking about what's probably the biggest election this year, the Virginia governor's race in November,

which at least one political analyst thinks could be competitive after years of Democratic wins. Yikes. So here's what we got. Popular Democratic Governor Ralph Northam is term limited, and he has endorsed former Governor Terry McAuliffe to replace him. Voting has already begun in the June 8th Democratic primary, where McAuliffe currently has a huge lead over his challengers, one of whom, former delegate Jennifer Carol Foy, we'll be talking with Dan in just a minute. We've also reached out to the McAuliffe campaign and hope to have him on soon as well. So that's the Democratic side. On the Republican side, this week, the party nominated first time candidate Glenn Youngkin, a Trump

endorsed former Carlisle Group CEO worth $300 million who ran on a platform of election integrity. Wow, look at that. And yet, even though Northam won his 2017 race by nine points and Biden won Virginia by 10 points, Cook Political Report's Dave Wasserman said, I think Republicans actually have a good chance to win the Virginia governor's race this year. And also tweeted,

Dems shouldn't assume Virginia's anti-Trump shift is automatically a durable pro-democratic shift. Were you as shocked by that take as me? What's Dave's reasoning there? His reasoning is essentially that a large swath of Virginia reacted against Trump. It's why it had such strong results in 17, 18, 19, and 20. And the state had been much closer prior to that. So he is assuming that there's a possibility with a solid Republican candidate that it could be more competitive. And he went on to say less than 50, more than 25%, I think, which people can decide whether that's a good chance.

But it certainly makes it a competitive race. So this is what I would say about that. Democrats won Virginia in 2001 and 2005 in both governor's races. The 2006 Senate race, the 2008 Senate and presidential race, the 2012 presidential and Senate race, the 2013 governor's race, the 2017, 2016 presidential race, 2017 governor's race, 2018 Senate race, 2020 presidential race. And I left out the 2019 state legislative races. So Democrats long before Trump and through Trump have done very well in this state.

The state is very clearly demographically moving more to the Democrats. And the shift as the Democrats have become more a party of suburban voters, Virginia is a state that has a high percentage of college educated voters who have become a part of our base. So it makes a lot of sense. The thing I left out in there, which I think is relevant to Wasserman's point, which I don't necessarily disagree with, which is 2013, when Terry McAuliffe was elected. It was a much closer race than people thought. And McAuliffe won in part because the Republicans nominated a terrible candidate in Ken Kuzinelli, and there was a libertarian candidate who got, I think, 6% or 7% of the vote. And McAuliffe won by 2.5%, I believe.

So that was a very close race. I also left out 2009 when the Democrats lost the governor's race there. And what is the same between 2009 and 2021 is you had – in both cases, Democrats had won, had the governorship for eight consecutive years. And just traditionally over the course of history, although I think it's changing somewhat because of polarization, it's harder to win three in a row. And so there is a chance of balance. The other thing that clearly informs Wasserman's point is for the first time in a long time, the Republicans did not pick their worst possible candidate. Amanda Chase, who was a far, far right Trumpy candidate, was running. There was a lot of thought that she was she was that she was at the riot on January 6th. She would. And, you know, in 2000, it's all this is all relative. This is relative. Who's the who's the Trumpiest candidate here? You know, just in the Virginia, Republicans have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot because they do this by convention, not by primary. So the activist base has a lot to do with it. In 2018, when they were looking for a candidate to run against Tim Kaine, they nominated

Corey Stewart, an actual supporter of the Confederacy. And in case you thought that Corey Stewart's Confederate ties meant he had deep ties in the state of Virginia, that'd be incorrect. He was raised in Minnesota. So you have a carpetbagging Confederate was who their choice was. Cuccinelli against McAuliffe was a terrible choice. Now, I also think because compared to Cuccinelli, Amanda Chase and Corey Stewart, Hyken is a good candidate, but he is still a big lie believing Trump endorsed very wealthy hedge fund executive, which is not a great profile on paper. I think you can run against Glenn Youngkin as a Trumpy Mitt Romney. Like all the, you know, like all the benefits we had in 12

of running against a really rich businessman who also was proposing cutting taxes for the wealthy and cutting services to people. Like, I really think that you can use the fact that he was the fucking carlisle group ceo of all the places the carlisle group carlisle carlisle group that has uh done a deal to force taylor swift to re-record all her albums because they they took away the ip that's that's important in your house yes yes that's important in my household but it's a it's a it's a big issue

in this race um but i i don't i don't see glenn yunkin who you're right like he he can't he has trump's endorsement um he said he was on tape during the primary saying oh they call me another donald trump i say thank you you know like he has these these comments and and then saying that election integrity is was his most important issue in the primary now he's going to try to pivot he's already trying to pivot for the general by trying to, like, distance himself from Donald Trump. Like, I think he's not dumb, but I still think because of the demographic makeup of the state, because he's a multimillionaire, a hundred times over, hundreds of times over, who's running on a traditional Republican platform and has embraced Donald Trump, I still think you're going to have a tough time, even though he's less Trumpy than the other candidates. Yeah, the whole conversation based off the Wasserman tweet,

who for very good reason, his voice carries a lot of weight in the income. He's a great analyst. Yeah. And he was a great analyst. And he was right about a lot of stuff in 2016 that others, including some people on this podcast, were wrong about. Right. But the way the debate played on Twitter was not the nuanced reaction to the nuanced point that Dave was making. It was some people saying, well, Dave says the Republicans are going to win. And then a bunch of people, then it's like, well, Democrats who say that Democrats can't lose. No one is saying Republicans are going to win.

No one is saying Democrats can't win. I think where Wassim is right is Republicans have a better chance than you would think, given all of the data that I just put out there. But that doesn't mean they are favored. And Dave said that. Yeah. And Dave said, he's like, I still think they're underdogs, but I think they have a better chance than usual. That's really what it boils down to. So I know you're talking to Jennifer Carroll Foy soon. What do you make of McAuliffe's lead in the primary and the dynamics of that race? consecutively. And McAuliffe was governor from 2013, 2017. He was a very successful governor.

He was very popular when he left. He would have run for reelection in a state without this insane law and almost certainly would have won given the results in that state. And so it's not surprising that he is leading. He has 100% name ID. He has a ton of money and has been spending it on television. But there's still, and what do we believe about polls and primary polls? Who knows? But he is a big lead. If there is, there are a lot of candidates. Jennifer Carroll Forry is by, I think, all analysis from sort of political observers in Virginia.

Elsewhere, the only person other than McAuliffe who could win this primary. If there is consolidation among the anti-McAuliffe group out there and a pretty significant chunk of undecided voters, it could become a race. But right now, he is a name ID advantage and money ID advantage. And the challenge for Jennifer Carroll-Foy, and she and I will talk about this in this interview, is what is your best argument to show why the guy who was governor four years ago, who you liked and probably would have reelected, should not be elected now? That's not an easy argument to make to Democratic primary voters. It's a different argument to make in a general election, but to Democratic primary voters who like McAuliffe,

that's hard. Yeah, I should say, I really like Jenniferennifer carol foy i've always respected her a lot um i interviewed her on the wilderness the first season of the wilderness when she was running for delegate for the first time and sort of discovered her through run for something which we talk about all the time and i remember amanda litman who runs run for something at the time was like jennifer carol foy is a star she's going to be governor of Virginia someday. She said that back then in 2017. And I remember speaking to her and being like incredibly impressed. The challenge that she's facing, aside from everything you just said, it's like she's running against and all of these candidates running against a very popular former governor who everyone in the state knows and has universal name ID because he was their governor really not that long ago.

Right. He left office and he left office in 2018 with an overall approval rating of 54 percent. Among Democrats, the approval rating was 82 percent. Among black voters, 87 percent. 18 to 29 year olds, 73 percent. Right. So like even constituencies that you would imagine a progressive challenger especially you know jennifer carol foy who if she won would be the first woman first black woman governor in the country um even even groups that she would normally try to rely on like approve of terry mccullough by huge margins so it's really hard to sort of dent that especially in a crowded primary,

especially against someone with such recognized name ID, who everyone knows. So it's like, you can't tell people a lot of stuff about Terry McAuliffe that they don't already know. And even when you try to attack Terry McAuliffe, I think for a voter in Virginia, they're thinking to themselves like, well, I haven't heard about this before. And I was around when he was governor for four years. So like, I feel like I know him. So it's just a really tough race for any challenger to run, I think. Yeah, it is. It's, you know, there's still there's time.

I mean, the election's not. Yeah, there is time. More than a month, although people are voting now in Virginia, a state which has very good voting laws in a lot of ways. But it's like it is a he has a real leg up. And, you know, you'll hear in the interview, Jennifer Carroll Foy is a tremendously compelling candidate, brilliant with a real message. But I think everyone acknowledged, I imagine her campaign would acknowledge that it is an uphill battle against McCullough for sure. All right.

Well, we will hear more from Jennifer Carroll Foy herself when Dan talks to her right after this break. I'm here with former Virginia state delegate and candidate for governor, Jennifer Carroll-Foy. Jennifer, welcome to Positive America. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Welcome to Positive America. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. So the first time a lot of our listeners learned about you and got to know you was when you were a first-time candidate running in 2017 in that incredibly important election, which now feels like 100 years ago after Trump and when people were starting to get engaged in

politics. How has your experience in politics been and how has it led you for this race for governor? Yeah, so I can tell you that running for the House of Delegates while pregnant with twins, flipping a seat from red to blue, being out-raised and out-endorsed was no easy task. But I knew that we needed change. And in order for there to be change, you have to have a new leader with a clear vision and bold ideas who's willing to run and win. And so I'm excited to say that, you know, doing that has helped us win the majority here in Virginia, and that trifecta feels real good. We've been able to dismantle a lot of

voter suppression tactics, protect choice, you know, and give teachers salary increases. And I've kept all my promises here in Virginia, expanding Medicaid, clean up toxic coal ash. And so you can only do that if someone's willing to put their neck out and do the hard thing of putting their name on the ballot. And so, you know, we've been able to do that. And now we're going to move Virginia to the 21st century by electing the first Black woman governor in the history of our country. You know, Virginia has had eight years of Democratic governors, as you said, the trifecta for the last few years. What are the things that did not get accomplished over those last eight years or even those last four years since you've been in office that you would want

to see done as soon as you were elected governor? So it's really about making gains on the progress we've been building. And so I think we've had a really good start. But under Jennifer Carrefour administration, we will be bolder, we will transformational, because in order for us to really desegregate our schools and our communities, we have to make the investments of a current if you set aside units for low and moderate income people. That's how we'll get more cars off the road. People can live where they work. And, you know, we'll be able to have more affordable housing here in Virginia. If we are really talking about having this racial reckoning, then we need a governor who will pass bills and budgets to uplift communities that have been most hurt and harmed by mass incarceration, over policing, and disinvestments. So as governor, you know, I'm excited to say I've passed a bill to prohibit the use of chokeholds by law enforcement officers. So we don't have an Eric Garner situation, help pass bills to have a ban on a knock warrant. So we don't have a Breonna Taylor situation. But if we do, as governor, I will implement a civilian

review board that's mandatory and applies to sheriff's offices as well. I will end qualified immunity because accountability is important. You know, my protest is in passing policies, bills, and budgets. And so I think that's what's important. And it's also important to march at rallies and protests, but we also have to protest at the ballot and vote people into office who will be principal leaders to stand up for our communities. You have described former Governor McAuliffe, who I think most people would say is your chief opponent in this race, the person who's been leading in the polls, as a career politician that represents Virginia's past. What do you mean by that?

So I mean that politicians of the past here in Virginia, like Terry McAuliffe, they make great, robust promises. But after campaign season, they know where to be found. So I'm running for governor because I was a part of one of those communities in Petersburg. You know, it was once an affluent, well-to-do community, but when businesses closed, jobs left to spare crept in. So we have only two accredited schools in all of the city. We have some of the highest child poverty rates, and that is where I'm from. And I can tell you, there's so many communities just like mine throughout Petersburg. And so there's politicians who will come around and they'll stand shoulder to shoulder with special

interests, but not with the people of Virginia. That's why he did a backroom deal with the NRA under Monica's still weapons laws. You know, he bought the pipelines to Virginia, which is an environmental racism issue because brown and black people are more likely to live near landfills, pipelines, and power plants. You know, all of these things are what we can expect from politicians of old. But now is the new day. Now is our time. Now is our turn. Virginia's had, you know, governors who represented the wealthy and well-connected for far too long. Now it's time for a governor who will pass paid sick days, paid family medical leave, have a $15 minimum wage now,

not five or 10 years from now, who will fight for unions and uplift women, wages, and workers all throughout Virginia. So that's exactly what I mean when I say this race for governor is really clear. when I say this race for governor is really clear. It's about Virginia's past, or they can vote for Virginia's future, which is a Jennifer Carroll Foy administration. You laid out several things that Governor McAuliffe did when in office that you thought you disagree with, you thought did not work, you know, we're not fulfilling campaign promises. What are some of the specific differences on some of the core issues going forward in terms of like, where you guys disagree on some of the issues, either where it was healthcare or criminal justice reform or some other issues, just so our listeners understand what the difference is at the ballot.

So this is a two-person race between Terry McAuliffe and I. We have the message, the resources, the mobilization in order to win this election on June 8th. But we can always use as many people's support as possible. The main differences between Terry McAuliffe and I going forward is that he'll talk about accountability, but he won't say that he'll end qualified immunity. He's actually made statements in the past saying that he will always come down on the side of law enforcement. We're not the same Virginia of five years ago. We all had to watch as a man lost his life for eight minutes and 46 seconds under another man's knee. We understand that while there are many good officers out there doing the right thing, if that's not the case, then we need a

governor who will stand up for the people and fight for true transparency, accountability, and justice. And being the first public defender ever elected to the Virginia General Assembly, I've dedicated my life to this work, helping people from the courthouse to the statehouse. So as they don't listen to the rhetoric, check the record. And my record is getting things done on police reform and criminal justice reform. When you talk about environmental justice, you know, Terry McAuliffe took money, hand over fence from one of the number one state corporate donors and fossil fuel companies in Virginia, letting them try to terminate a historically black community called Union Hill with the pipeline and compressor station. Allow, you know, people in my community in Prince William County to be poisoned by coal ash, which has led our sick and mercury that was seeping in people's well-drinking water. And he did absolutely nothing. What did I do? I

took on the fossil fuel companies and I won. Cleaning up toxic coal ash here in Virginia, exceeding EPA standards, helping to beat back pipelines, and helping to pass the Virginia Clean Economy Act, making Virginia the first first state to have 100% zero carbon emission standard. And as governor, I'll bring 15,000 new renewable jobs to Virginia for the next 15 years, and I will not leave my former fossil fuel workers or coal miners behind. I will have a just transition while also protecting cost-sensitive communities. So these are just some of the ways that we are different. He also did that back- deal with the NRA undermining concealed weapon laws in Virginia. For me, I will pass an assault weapons ban here in Virginia. It worked on the federal level, it'll work here. We had Virginia Tech and Virginia Beach,

but I'll also make investments to have violence interruption programs because we have to end everyday urban gun violence in Virginia as well. Well, Terry McAuliffe has failed to make inroads on those policies. And that's why Shannon Watts from Moms to Man Action, after I announced I'm running for governor, said Jennifer Carol Foy will be the next governor of Virginia because many of these advocates remember, you know, Terry McAuliffe pulling the NRA into a room and kicking them all out. The gun safety advocates and the families who are mourning their dead children because of gun violence here in the Commonwealth. So these are just a few ways how we differ and how I am the true champion of the people and really get things

done for the people in Virginia. I want to ask you about, you said this is a two-person race between you and Governor McAuliffe. Have you explained why you think that's the case? You know, we don't put a lot of stock in polling after the last few elections, but it's sort of – there is sort of two tiers, or maybe there's three tiers. There's Governor McAuliffe, former Governor McAuliffe, who obviously 100% name ID, but up in the polls. And then sort of a group of a couple of people, yourself included, who are in that next tier. Why do you think this is, you know, what gives you confidence that this is a two-person race between you and the former governor? Yeah, so, you know, I don't subscribe to the poll poster as much either. But what I can say... Good use of the term, yes.

And so what I can say is that Virginians are just now tuning into this race for governor. Our election is on June 8th. So we still have a runway. And the great thing is, is that we know our polls and focus groups show that once they hear our positive vision for Virginia, they know our record. They listen to me speak and hear the passion in my voice that they understand that there is only one true and right and deserving person who needs to be the next governor of Virginia, and that's definitely me. And so we are galvanizing support all across the Commonwealth.

We're going to have the most aggressive ground game and mobilizing the most diverse coalition of voters that Virginia has ever seen. And so that's what it's really about. The polls that we are fighting and care the most about are the polls on June 8th, because it's hard to gauge the momentum and excitement that we're seeing and we're hearing all throughout Virginia. And we've seen these polls not be correct before. I can tell you when I ran for the House of Delegates in 2017, they were totally off and didn't have me winning in the way that I won, flipping a seat from red to blue, being out-raised, out-spent, because this was a red district carved out for a Republican. And I was able to win it in a big way,

win Quantico military base and flip areas that had never been turned blue before. So I can tell you the polls have gotten it wrong before and they will get it wrong again in this race, because at the end of the day, we see a clear path to win. And that path is ensuring that everyone hears our clear, positive vision for Virginia. If you were the nominee, you will be running against Glenn Youngkin, who was nominated by the Republicans just this week. Talk to me about what's your reaction to that choice and how do you see him as a potential opponent?

what's your reaction to that choice? And how do you see him as potential opponent? So I think that the Republican Party are, they're really going through, you know, a time right now. And when I hear from Virginians, they tell me they want a leader who understands their struggles, and who can relate to what they're going through, who has actually walked in their shoes. So I have worked multiple minimum wage jobs just to get by and been unable to afford the high cost of healthcare. And so they know that I don't just empathize with the challenges they face. I understand. My husband and I both had to sit at our kitchen table and break out the checkbook to make some hard decisions. And I can tell you that's how I've been able to succeed at VMI, passing bills and budgets to help families get ahead.

And that's not the story of Terry McAuliffe or Glenn Youngkin. Democrats will only win in November if we have someone who can inspire, you know, our people to get to the polls. And I'm really proud of our campaign and been attracting millions of working families to support our vision that we've built. But we have to remember that Terry McCullough barely eked out a win in 2013 against a divisive figure like King Cuccinelli. And Glenn Youngkin, he's offering more of the same. He is Trump 2.0. He was just endorsed by him as well. We have rejected that here in Virginia. Corey Stewart tried it, and so did Eddie Gillespie, and they were not successful. Because Virginians

are looking for an inspiring candidate who's going to improve their quality of life and speaks to the kitchen table issues that matter to them. They're not going to flock to the polls to elect one out-of-touch millionaire over another. You know, as you mentioned at the top, America has never had a Black woman governor before. What do you, I just want to, you know, you're running to make history both in Virginia and across the country. I wanted to ask you what that would mean, both in Virginia and across the country. So I can tell you for the millions of young girls of color out there, it's hard to be what you can't see. We have yet to have a Black woman

lead this country, and we have yet to have a Black woman lead any state in this nation. But that's going to end in 2021, because representation matters. And it's the representation that I bring as a working mom of two three-year-olds who refuse to be potty trained during a pandemic. It's the experience I bring as a public defender, representing Black, Brown, and poor Virginians navigate a broken criminal justice system. As a foster mom for eight years, this is a lens that I see things through. Fighting for fairness, equality, and justice.

So people know that I'm in it for the right thing. But let's be clear, breaking down barriers and blazing trails is nothing new to me. That's how I became one of the first women to ever graduate from Virginia Military Institute, one of the top military colleges in this country. And it wasn't easy.

Being the first public defender to ever be elected to the Virginia General Assembly, where there was only one resounding voice down there, which was prosecutors, not thinking about the decisions they make and how they affect communities and children and, you know, poverty levels of so many people for generations. And so lending my voice down there to bring real robust reform and change. So this is just another point and another time for us to be able to do something that has not been done. And I've been told no my entire life. But the one thing that people will soon learn about me is, is that I eat no for breakfast. So this will be no different. Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us. And for all of our friends of the pod out in Virginia, the deadline to register to vote in the primary is this Monday,

May 17th. You can head over to votesaveamerica.com slash Virginia to find everything in one place for the June 8th primary. We have the info you need to register, request a ballot, vote early or on primary day, and get involved in a campaign. Thanks. Please go to jennifercarolfoy.com. Thank you. After the interview, Jennifer Carol Foy's campaign reached out to us to say that she misspoke when she claimed that former Governor McAuliffe opposed ending qualified immunity. That is incorrect. He supports ending qualified immunity. We wanted to make sure you had the correct information. Thanks to Jennifer Carroll Foy for joining us today. Everyone have a great weekend,

and we will talk to you next week. Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. Caroline Rustin and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim,

who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.