Pod Save America - “CPAC: The Fascist & The Furious” (with Katie Porter & Dr. Vivek Murthy)

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Donald Trump inches closer to another run for the presidency at CPAC, Representative Katie Porter talks about President Biden’s new executive order targeting big business and big tech, and Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy discusses the Delta variant, vaccine mandates, and the potential need for booster shots. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Levitt. I'm Tommy Vitor. One year and four months later, we are back in the studio and I've never been happier to see all of your smiling faces. You guys look good. Look at this. You have an age today. What a thing. What a thing, huh? It's weird. You're with my boys. It does feel very, it feels nice, but it's very strange. I'm used to talking to you through a computer. Yeah, recording a podcast is a private thing. It's something I do a lot. In your house. Not anymore, John.

On today's show, Donald Trump inches closer to another run for the presidency. Jeez, it's like we never left. A year later, we're still there. That part sucks. Representative Katie Porter chats with Tommy and Lovett about Biden's new executive order that targets big business and big tech. And later, I talked to Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy about the Delta variant, booster shots, vaccine mandates, and more. But first, if you haven't already, don't miss out on our new podcast, Edith, a scripted comedy starring Rosamund Pike about America's secret first female president. We're about halfway through the series, but it's not too late for you to catch up.

New episodes of Edith are released every Thursday and the first four are out now. Check it out. I've loved Edith. I've loved every episode. So good. It's very, very funny. It's a hit. Love it. Or sorry, Travis was tweeting photos of himself posing like Glenn Beck over the weekend, who also was holding up a book, the biography edith wilson i think at cpac for some reason yeah because they're doing a whole um jill biden is like edith wilson thing now there's that that's brewing on the right because jill biden's pulling all this ring she's got the marionette now right so it's okay so it's the worst reason they could be holding oh yeah the

worst reason also joe biden joe biden the nicest human being on the planet yeah i think they do it in shifts i think joe biden joe biden the night shift. Kamala has the day shift for operating Joe Biden like weekend at Bernie's. That clip will be used on Ben Shapiro show. Hi, everybody. All right, let's get to the news. Donald Trump unsurprisingly dominated this year's conservative political action committee or CPAC that was held in Dallas, Texas over the weekend. He got the prime speaking slot. He crushed the straw poll of attendees and every other speaker basically parroted all of Trump's lies and grievances. Did you hear him crying about his time slot?

It was a solid two and a half minutes of his speech whining about getting Sunday. A match slap. He said, give me your worst times. We actually did. Blah, blah, blah. He was angry. He was angry that he your worst times. We actually did blah, blah, blah. It was, he was angry. He was angry that he didn't get Friday night or Saturday night. I mean,

he really is just a touring. I thought that was the prime slot. I thought that was the prime slot. Sunday afternoon. All right. He was annoying. He was pissed he couldn't golf. So we will have a lot more on the former president in a bit,

but I do want to start with some other notable CPAC moments, uh, like a painting of Trump hugging and kissing the flag that went for $25,000. The founder of the insurrectionist militia known as the Oath Keepers was seen enjoying a beer. And here's how the audience reacted when they heard that the federal government didn't meet its vaccination goal by July 4th. They were hoping, the government was hoping, that they could sort of sucker 90 percent of the population into getting vaccinated. And it and it and it isn't happening. Right.

There's a younger people are well aware of what the risks really are. Love it. Do you get the sense that a lot of Republican politicians and especially Republican media figures are more openly anti-vax lately? Like, why do you think they're going down this path? Frank Luntz told Andy Slavitt on his pod today that Trump is sending out fundraising mailers claiming that people are dying from the vaccines. Yeah, I mean, they are. I think a couple things are happening. One, this is an extension of COVID is overblown. So implicit in a lot of this is, oh, if you're older, if you're in a risk category, you should get vaccinated, but no one else needs to get vaccinated because they're lying about how it's still, they don't recognize how it can still hurt younger people.

And they don't recognize mutual obligation, I guess, even if you accept that premise, like, why wouldn't you get this vaccine? It's harmless, obviously. And we'll protect the older people who are more vulnerable. The other piece of it is that we've sort of hit the kind of threshold where we've moved from scarcity in this country to now it is time to go to like local persuasion. Now it is time to go to like trusted people in communities to get that last group of people vaccinated. So then that gives them an opportunity. They can prevent Biden from succeeding. That's a goal.

They can feed conspiratorial minds succeeding. That's a goal. They can feed conspiratorial mindsets. That's a goal. They can keep the attention of their broken viewers who are easily pulled by OAN and Newsmax, which are more conspiratorial. And then when you talk about things like needing to go inside of communities,

they can kind of fan the flames that this is some door-to-door effort to kind of force people to get the vaccine. And because Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham don't care if people live or die and are completely valueless, it's an opportunity for them to sow chaos. And the Republicans just follow them along. Permission to float a conspiracy theory? Yes. Permission granted.

Absolutely. That's what we do here. Do you see Madison Cawthorn said that the reason they were going door-to-door for vaccinations was to prepare to eventually take away your gun and your Bible? I did not see that. I knew that I saw something that stupid that Madison Cawthorn said was trending, but I did not look into it. So thank you. It was a good one. Well, nobody like the governor of Missouri. I have a way worse conspiracy theory for you, John. So right. Part of what I love saying is like Fauci is the new boogeyman, right? Because Biden's boring. Here's the other thing I want to, this is my conspiracy theory for you. So Kristi Noem made this oblique attack on Republican governors who say they didn't lock down, but they

really locked down. She was sort of viewed as an oblique shot at Ron DeSantis. Do you think she's doing this as a stalking horse for the Trump family who's now worried about DeSantis? Wow. You're deep in all of these. That's- I read about CPAC all weekend. I missed the Kristi Noem thing though. That's- Yes. It was like the christine ohm thing though that's yes it was it was like the christine ohm thing it's so many um it's so many levels of bullshit deep it's like hey you may get the impression that some of these republican governors uh did the wrong thing don't let them lie to you about how wrong they were exactly some of them were right and we should

hold them accountable that's right that's the the known position. I made sure that my state was leading the country in per capita deaths. Can Ron DeSantis say that? No, he cannot. I kind of think the anti-vax sort of trend now in the Republican Party, now that it's becoming more mainstream in the Republican Party, really does fit with the larger story they're trying to tell, which is you can't trust the radical left. And the radical left has now taken over all of our institutions. And now they're in power and they're going to constantly make you do shit that you don't want to do. They're going to force things in your life. And if they give you a vaccine, you can't trust that vaccine from the radical left.

Just like you can't trust them teaching things in schools and you can't trust them that they're going to, you know, they're going to try to take away your free speech, right? Like it is all of a sort of, that's all of a piece here. That's the overwhelming theme. The liberals are going to take stuff from you and the far right wing of the Republican party. We are the only ones who can stop them. Guns, freedom of speech, your Facebook feed, COVID restrictions, funding for cops, the border. And then, uh, eventually it got Trump, who was like, and they took the result of the election from you. Right. There was somebody wandering. Washington Post found somebody wandering around CPAC, which is, you know, any really any big political gathering has this sort of person. You know, backpack covered in buttons, a lot of red string, a big sign with strings from George Soros to Champ Biden, you know, like back and forth lines all over the place. And that's that is sort of

was always taken as this sort of status quo entity. Like there are these fringe figures with conspiracy theories. But now, like you have former national security advisors doing events, taking pictures in front of the same kind of thing. Donald Trump is like a red string guy now standing in front of this whole group of people. And Madison Cawthorn saying that like they're going to go door to door to take your Bibles and your guns like this vaccination effort, which they're obviously there is no national door to door campaign. But this is a dry run for some future nefarious act like that is like the that is now at the center of the Republican Party. That's it. But it's also like, you know, everything everything new is old. Right. It's it reminds you and Brian Boitler wrote about this in his newsletter last week. It reminds you of the

death panels and the fury over Obamacare in 2010. Right. Which is the government's going to decide whether you live or die. Now it's the government's going to go door to door and make you take this vaccine that we're not sure we know. Do we really know what's in it? Do we really know if it's safe? But Donald Trump deserves credit for it. But Donald Trump deserves credit for it. Yeah. And it's classic grievance politics, true. And it's highly racial. And, you know, Trump made it more explicit than ever before when he was saying horrible things about Mexicans during his announcement speech. But it's basically like, hey, white Republican base, liberals are going to take things from you and give them to other people. Worry about your status. I mean, did you see, Tommy, were there any other non-Trump CPAC highlights that stayed with you from the weekend before we get to the

man himself? You know, the vaccination thing that bummed me out pretty good. Um, uh, I was not thrilled to see the Oath Keepers, the far right militia. There was another sort of far right group there, Nick Fuentes, those Gripers who are the people to the right of the sort of MAGA people who, it looked like the cast of Superbad sort of storming CPAC, but I do think like, you know, that is usually like the fringe of where these c-pack events are is where we kind of the the majority of the republican party ends up in a couple years so it's you know it's scary to see these like right-wing militia groups in there i mean that stuff is terrifying you have anything else of it it's so interesting how many conspiracy theories involve like practice runs government's always practicing you, like they're coming for the Bibles, but first they're doing like Jade Helm. Like the, yeah,

Jade Helm was a good example. Like they're like this idea that like, all right, there was a pandemic. We created a vaccine in record time under a public administration to practice for the Bible taking. Like we finally have our opportunity to do our Bible taking practice. Well,

the government's been trying to take people's guns, right, for like 20, 30 years now. They really failed at that. And we've only succeeded a couple times. So, of course, the main event was Donald Trump's speech on Sunday afternoon, which touched on all the latest threats and grievances on the right, like critical race theory and cancel culture. He also played some of the old hits, like windmills are evil. We love windmills are evil.

That's an old hit. old hits like uh windmills are evil we love windmills are evil that's an old hit um but the heart of what was a long incoherently rambling speech was trump's continued attack on the legitimacy of the 2020 election by spreading lies about voter fraud that never happened take a listen Thank you. It's true. We all won. We all won. We will never give up our search for truth and justice for what happened in the corrupt presidential election of 2020, because without that truth, we cannot have an honest election in 2022 or 2024, no matter what they want to tell you. or 2024, no matter what they want to tell you. And our country will soon stand proudly for free and strong and proper elections again. The election fraud of 2020 is the single most requested topic for me and others to talk about. So there are polls to back up Trump here.

But why do you guys think that, as Trump just said, the big lie has become not only Trump's number one issue, but the Republican base's number one issue as well? The most popular person in the Republican Party has been saying it nonstop since they lost and core to C-PAC, core to Donald Trump as a political figure, core to what animates the people in that room is this idea that there is no information that can run counter to our worldview. That this is easy, that everything should fit with what we're saying. Everything should feel good and the election results don't feel good. And he's giving us permission to say that's because they're wrong. That's because they're a lie. Climate change doesn't have to be real. Whatever we need to make us feel good in the moment will be true to us. And so, of course,

they faced a crushing defeat of their movement. They see Joe Biden as a popular figure in the country now. Their Democrats control the Senate a popular figure in the country now. Their Democrats control the Senate, the House, and the White House. So what is the only explanation that they could possibly have for that defeat? It has to be fraud. And so they've all embraced it. You know, I think one of the biggest pieces of conventional wisdom that I think is wrong is this idea that like misinformation is happening to the people in that room. Like misinformation is hitting those people and then they absorb it and then it becomes something that they believe that they are not that they are for that they are being kind of, you know, hoodwinked by what Donald Trump and right wing

propaganda is doing. But one thing you see, by the way, the audience response throughout this into some clips we'll play later is they are agents of this. They are choosing this. They are part of this game. They know what Donald Trump is doing and they love it. Tommy, what do you think? So I thought it was interesting to watch the difference between Donald Trump's senior and Donald Trump's junior speech. So Donnie Jr., my friend in years, starts with the Wuhan lab. Then he attacked trans athletes, went to gas prices, Biden dementia, something about Russia.

Took a little tour to bash Michael Avenatti, which, you know, he got a clap out of me. What a set list. You know, fighting the libs. Hitting Avenatti while he's very well down,

I would say. I'm just kidding about Avenatti. He's, I don't know, whatever. Then he like ripped on Fauci. And then 10 minutes into the speech, someone chants, Trump won. The whole place goes nuts.

They stand up, they applause. It shuts down Donnie Jr. for a minute while he sort of like accepts the applause. And Don Jr. kind of deflected it. He made a joke about how there's an entering that Biden's margin among black voters was higher than Obama's. Isn't that interesting? But then he just went and attacked Hunter Biden for a couple of minutes and then went back to his speech, right? It's like even Donald Trump's son doesn't really want to talk about the election lie stuff that much. He just knows that everyone knows they have to because Donald Trump senior is, that is the core of his entire speech. All of his grievances have now gotten folded into that rubric, right? Like now he hates the tech companies because they

rigged the election against him. It's not just because they censored him or because they're liberals or whatever else. So it's like, it's like love. It was saying, it's like by force of nature, by force of will, the entire base message is becoming about this big lie thing. It's not going anywhere. It's, it's getting bigger. I also think, you know, this is an extremist movement fueled by grievance. And the ultimate grievance is that the election was taken from them. Right. And you understand why it's Trump's number one issue, because it's about Trump and Trump losing and everything is narcissism and everything's about him. And so that's him. But for the base, it's not just about how they feel about Trump. What he has turned it into and what the Republican media has turned it into is it is about something that was taken from you. It is the ultimate thing that

was taken from you. And the left is trying to take a lot from you. We were just talking about that. But the ultimate thing is they're now saying that you don't even have a voice, that the people you want to lead you, that you can't have them because the Democrats are going to steal the election away. And you were right all along. Biden didn't win. You were right all along during the election. Now you're right. You are the majority. And it is also, I think, and we're going to talk about this in a second,

but I think it's setting up 2024 as a vengeance campaign, right? Like we are going to avenge the fact that they stole the last one from us. And that's going to be, and because everything is about a culture war and it's not really about policies anymore, the ultimate thing is you took our country from us and now we want it back.

I mean, that's what this is. Kill Bill 2. To go back to the vaccines. I mean, that is that is, I think, what Laura Ingram, Tucker Carlson. That's that's a lot. So much of what they do now is they take issues and translate them into identity. Right. Like that is getting vaccinated or being in favor of mass vaccination is now an identity issue.

And once an identity issue, these people are lost to persuasion. Yeah. Once something becomes identity, you can't persuade them to come back. And Tucker just looks for all the little areas where he knows the people like us will get mad and call him out and write New York Times stories about him. And he lifts those up and runs with them because that's what he wants. I also want to play one clip that I thought was one of those rare moments where Trump says something very honest and revealing.

Let's play the clip. I understand that. I didn't become different. I got impeached twice. I didn't change. I became worse. I became worse. That's a really good joke. Sorry, everybody. It's just a good joke. It's just funny to tell a joke from the perspective of the Democrats trying to stop him. Like, you didn't make me better. You made me worse, I think, of why the only thing that works with Trump is taking away his power. Deterrence doesn't work. Appeasement doesn't work. Ignoring him doesn't work.

Right. The only thing that works is beating him. That's the only thing he understands. And it's worth noting, too, that that was a what he was. He was comparing himself to Bill Barr, his attorney general, Bill Barr, who was a supplicant to Donald Trump for virtually all the time he was attorney general bill barr uh who was a supplicant to donald trump for virtually all the time he was attorney general believes in basically unlimited presidential power did a ton to like to to to what's it called in football when you block for somebody you run blocking sure run blocking pass blocking run what else blocking for him what kind of play are we

like it's when there's somebody's in front of somebody with the ball kind of so like i'm so bill barr was the fullback in this analogy and donald trump was a running back or was in an option what's it called like you're blocking he's blocking you're blocking you had it you know you nailed it yeah the first time there's something more put in the comments there's more specific thing anyway the point is yeah there's a lesson here he is he is he is again he is now saying that bill barr don't give he's still furious about that atlantic piece about bill barr mcconnell kind of betrayed him on behalf of the democrats not because they thought it was not because he was doing what he thought was you know a hint of the right thing but because it was a part of the deeper betrayal by democrats he did the same thing with

brett kavanaugh right when he starts mentioning brett kavanaugh and he said oh well because brett kavanaugh was almost not confirmed and because the Democrats went after him, that's why he didn't vote to, you know, believe all my. And of course, he just said that's why he voted with the Democrats as if as if everything is like an election in a competition when he really meant that, like the Supreme Court rejected the absurd fucking claims from Donald Trump and his his crack legal team about voter fraud. He said Bill Barr got intimidated by an impeachment threat out of doing a whole bunch of things, punishing a bunch of enemies, including, I guess, arresting,

he said, the women who slandered and defamed Brett Kavanaugh. So the people who came forward to accuse Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault assault trump suggested in this speech should have been punished in some way it was really a dark dark fucked up the whole and the whole point he was making is dark which is democrats play tough they don't play nice and maybe now we need to play yeah now me we can't we shouldn't play yeah finally we should get tough we tried to they tried to burn down the fucking capital right i thought that was tough but that's why it's so fucking scary is he's telling them like no no they still play dirtier we got to match them that was tough. But that's why it's so fucking scary is he's telling them like, no, no, they still play dirtier. We got to match them. That was the point of that part of the speech.

And it's just also he went on that, you know, obviously he thinks Kavanaugh was mistreated during the hearings. And then he makes the point that the reason that the conservative Supreme Court is actually behaving like a Democratic court is the threat of court packing because he can't allow even that they have any kind of power. You can't tell this audience like, at least we have the Supreme Court with just rule to protect voting rights on our behalf. There are no victories. He's back to being the challenger and everything's grievance.

No wins. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. There's one more clip that's kind of funny where Trump admits something about polling. I want to play that. Now, if it's bad, I say it's fake. If it's good, I say that's the most accurate poll perhaps ever. It's great. It's so great. But like the audience is in on the joke. And, you know,

there's this piece of what it means to be a Trump supporter, which is another way of being a fascist. And it's you have to both buy into it and you have to be so naive as to buy what Trump is saying and so cynical to think, actually, I know he's full of shit, but he's but I'm with him and we're pulling this stunt on everybody else. And that to me is like the most chilling thing overall about CPAC, which is these are all these people and, you know, whatever power we can keep them from attaining, however unsuccessful they were in overturning the previous election, thankfully, because a few people managed to stand up against this kind of a mob. Like, it is very clear that like,

and this always sounds so, fascism has a hold on their hearts. Like, this is a fascist group of people who would like to attain power by any means necessary. They do not accept reality. They do not accept truth. They do not accept the limits of democratic power. And the only thing preventing them from turning America into a full authoritarian regime is the last bits of our institution standing in the way all across the country. And like we, it's this mix of how silly and stupid it is while along with how dangerous it is. And that was a very American brand of fascism. Yeah. Could could either of you detect any other messages or themes in Trump's speech that could form the basis for campaign arguments, either in the midterms or the next presidential? It's demagoguing immigrants and pretending the border has been just opened completely. It's all the grievance stuff we talked about.

Take your guns away. Big tech, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I think that's what they want him to say. And then he just goes off script and complains about an aircraft carrier not having steam propulsion anymore. That's a long story. I think that's an old bit that he goes back to. And then there's like the election fraud stuff. And back to what we were talking about. I love it.

Like Adam Serwer has talked about this and I think put it well, which is like liberals hear Trump talk and we think he's being dishonest and conservatives hear Trump talk and they think he's being authentic because he might not be getting it right, but he's saying what he feels. And it's just pure id and rage and grievance at others. And like, that's what has drawn them to him since that very beginning in 2015 um i he when he went on that diatribe about the steam on the ship it just made me think about like the horrible obviously it's all made up

or if it's mostly made up but there is some kernel there which is he went on a tour and started telling these people about how their ship should work. How to run an aircraft carrier. And they were just indulging him for like that 20 minute meeting before the pictures were taken. And now he's turned it into this very intense story about how he tried to put steam power back on an aircraft carrier. Something about magnets. Yeah, it's in. But look, you're right, Tommy, that what they put on the prompter and what's written in the speech is certainly what his advisors think the message would be it's sort of what republican politicians probably what kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell the message it started immigration and the border

was the first topic that moved into crime now is there a new big issue uh he also said you know how nothing ever happens to antifa and blm black lives matter it only happens to Antifa and BLM, Black Lives Matter. It only happens to innocent Republicans like Trump and Rudy Giuliani. Like Ashley Babbitt, the woman who was shot on January 6th. So the new theme is the government uses its power to punish Republicans, but not go after any of the people who are committing homicides at a record rate, right? This is another theme. Then they get into guns, First Amendment and cancel culture is a big one. And then it ultimately, it builds up to the big lie, which you're right.

I think some Republicans would rather him not talk about. But to Trump, that's the center of it all, right? And he says, like, this is even more important than the border than anything else, because that is the big grievance. I do think it's on the one hand, sure, there's some ways in which Trump going on about the big lie is not helpful, but it's also opened the door to all these voter restrictions that they're passing all across the country. So they don't need, they don't need to address it. They don't need to embrace it. They just need to have him out there

fanning the flames of this conspiracy so that they can pass the voter suppression law. Yeah. The two things he said. So he did talk about crime. The other quote I think we'll hear again and again is that Joe Biden is turning America into a sanctuary city. And I think that America's one big sanctuary city. He'll come back. That is going to be the core of this. He even started previewing. He's like, you haven't been seeing the caravans,. He'll come back. That is going to be the core of this. He even started previewing. He's like, you haven't been seeing the caravans, but they're coming back. Yeah. Great.

Great. So it just means what he's, he's programming. He's programming 2020, uh, 2022. And I think previewing that his attack on Joe Biden will also be that he is corrupt, that his family's corrupt. He mentioned Hunter. He mentioned the paintings, right? It was this weird line about how Joe Biden's got a lot of toothbrushes and he's like, Hey,

Louie Gohmert, I bet you got one toothbrush. Everyone's like, what the fuck is he talking about? He was so patronizing Louie Gohmert because here's Donald Trump, multiple houses, super rich guys like Louie Gohmert. He's got one house, one toothbrush, one room, one bed. Yeah. The other thing you could tell was sort of a planned messaging strategy was they're peddling this website, take on big tech.com where he suggests that you can join the trump class action lawsuit against the tech companies really just takes you a donation page or tries to harvest your email and your information for his continued grifting pack whatever you know new political infrastructure yes mark zuckerbucks he called them mark zuckerbucks oh yeah i meant to say is that new

that was new to me because i'll tell you my my fucking anti-Semitism alarm went off full fucking Blair in my house. Yeah, it went off. And it's hard to you can't. There's no app for that thing. It was hard to turn it off. Given that the crowd chanted four more years multiple times during Trump's speech, it shouldn't have been all that surprising that the former president won the unscientific straw poll of CPAC attendees with 70 percent. Second place was Ron DeSantis with 21%. Mike Pompeo, Tommy's candidate of choice at 5%. Don Jr. at 4%. Everyone else at 1%. Trump's approval rating among CPAC attendees was 98%, all of which could only reinforce

world-renowned narcissist Donald Trump's belief that his people want him to run again, a decision he took a few inches closer to during an interview with Maria Bartiromo before his speech on Sunday. Here's a clip. You ready to get back in that ring and run for president again, sir? Well, I do know my answer, but I can't reveal it yet. And because that has to do with campaign financing and everything else, you know that. So I can't reveal it yet, but I absolutely know my answer. And we're going to do very well. People are going to be very happy. What do you guys make of those comments? Is it time to start taking Trump seriously as the likely Republican nominee in 2024? I'll say first, one other piece of Donald Trump's future that was

in his message was that he started going after, he started saying some incoherent things about prosecutors in New York, because I think a little bit of him is still, he's previewing his message if he is eventually charged with something. Right. So that was part of it. So they photocopied the documents and just handed them to the New York prosecutors. What I took away from the straw polls is like these fucking people, the gnomes and Pompeos have been groveling and crawling over broken glass to beg these people to become a constituency like I know you like Trump, but I'm here too. And I'm really trying to be something that you want me to be. I'll say anything you need. I'll do one interview with NPR in a year and then kick them out. Like whatever you need me to do to be your guy, I'll be your guy. And they don't give a fuck about anybody

except Trump and Ron DeSantis. That's it. That's it. 70% is not that good. That kind of surprises me for the most MAGA base. Yeah. Although I think once he, I mean. I'm not saying he's going to lose. It's just like that's a pretty decent fit. Although the 98% approval rating. Yeah, they all like him.

But if they don't want him to run again, that's notable. Also, Maria Bratoromo. I mean, she's lost a thread so long ago. She referred to Ashley Babbitt. Again, the woman who climbed through a window and was shot at the Capitol on January 6 Is a wonderful woman who went to a peaceful protest? Trump then asserts that the head of security for a Democrat shot her and he called for his people I believe he said to be released the people in custody. It was very it was again a very fascist dark dark exchange

The insurrection was good. It is the new branding from Donald Trump. It wasn't it wasn't a big deal That was the first thing. Oh, it wasn't that big of a deal. Now it's, it was good. And it should be. Like I, we all, I think, expected the revisionist history and on the election lies and the fraud and all these audits going on are helping that case. But to, to watch the images of what we saw on January 6th and then come away saying wonderful people at a peaceful protest is, just shows that facts don't matter. It's all just what team you're on. But I do, I think these other Republican candidates or potential candidates, I don't see the path. I don't even see the path for Ron DeSantis. I think you get 70 percent in a poll

like that that is fucking crushing among a big field like that. I think he clearly loves the adulation. Everything he said in that that speech every utterance sounded like a man who just cannot stop himself from running again he fucking loves it he needs it it's gonna happen and then i don't see how he gets beaten even if he if he's indicted like you said love it he's got a story for being indicted and charged everyone's like oh well then his business is he might be broke because of his business but he doesn't care if he's fucking broke he'll run broke too it doesn't matter politics makes money donald trump has been adam sandler and uncut gems for fucking years now he is he is uh he is snorting adderall and keeping his debtors at bay and breaking the law and barely escaping but he

has escaped every single time why on earth wouldn't he run again? It's the best thing he could possibly do even if he is indicted. And like, regardless, first of all, I'm interested to see just like Ron DeSantis having these kind of, you know, poking his head up, you know, out of the trench, getting a little bit higher in these polls, plus sitting around a table with Joe Biden and not trying to personally throttle him has created a moment. I'm interested to see what Donald Trump does, because if Donald Trump does not care if Ron DeSantis lives or fucking dies, and if he's worried about someone else going to challenge him, he's got to try to figure out a way to make Ron DeSantis' life pretty miserable. But regardless, like, okay, let's say Trump in some fluke doesn't run for whatever reason. What did we just watch? We

watched CPAC and this whole propaganda machine, which is a machine for turning politicians into little Trumps. Donald Trump will be the nominee, whether it's his name or not, that is done. There's no ideological debate in the Republican party. There is no conservative rear guard action against what these people have built. This is it. It is his party. is his world i would still argue that he's he's still more dangerous than all of them i mean he's just he's proven to be a pretty good demagogue right yeah yeah for sure i don't see that i don't disagree with that do what would what would like taking him seriously as a nominee look like do you think like the idea that he is getting closer to running should affect uh the white house strategy the democratic strategy, the Democratic strategy,

our midterm strategy? Do we elevate him? Do we not talk about him? Like, what do you guys think about that? I don't know quite yet. I mean, I think the Biden folks will continue to just try to run on accomplishments and try to get this bipartisan deal done. And it was interesting. One of the only sort of strategic things he did in the speech was Trump came out hard against the bipartisan infrastructure deal. It was one of the few sort of strategic things he did in the speech was Trump came out hard against the bipartisan infrastructure deal. It was one of the few sort of political positions he took that seemed designed to harm Biden. The other thing he did that I really took notice of was he criticized Biden for getting out of Afghanistan, but leaving equipment there, but then was like, but no, it's time we should be out of there. Right. He like kind of took away

from the Republican Party any criticism of the withdrawal, although I guess I'll just reframe it. Yeah, I mean, it was it was right. He was saying it's similar. I think similar to the vaccine, like, you know, I deserve credit for the vaccine, but but don't get it. It's like I believe I deserve credit for ending the war, ending the wars. But the way they're doing it is terrible in some sort of, you know, amorphous sort of improv kind of way. The Biden White House strategy, and this is their political strategy all along, has been to rebuild trust in government by proving that government can deliver and change your lives for the better. I think that is essential. I think they have to do that for sure. I don't think it's sufficient, though. And that's where I think that

the Trump thing comes in. Like, I think the Democrats have to have answers for the critical race theory, fear mongering, the cancel culture, fear mongering, the immigration stuff, the crime stuff, all the shit that Trump said that that doesn't just put Democrats on the defensive. That's not just a response, but puts Republicans on the defensive on some of these issues as well and starts telling a story about it, because I don't think we will be able to just ignore all that and say, okay, they're going to do culture war stuff. People don't care about that. People care about checks and pockets and shots in arms. That's all people care about. Because in an age where we have a very powerful propaganda machine on the right and a very powerful propaganda machine through social media, like, I don't think that we can

just put our head in the sand and think, okay, we're going to focus on improving people's lives. And that's enough, because I don't think it's enough. Yeah, it's um, and I do think one lesson, like, you're right, Donald, Donald Trump Jr. didn't need to say the lie, because the lie is already fully embraced by the Yeah, and he said it before, of course, no, of course. But, you know, Republicans saw something that no one had ever heard of critical race theory. And they didn't say that's not what they're interested in hearing about. I'm going to talk about health care. That's not what they want. I'm going to I'm going to talk about pocketbook issues. They said, let's make something from nothing. Let's let's let's say something so often. And so and so conspiratorially that it becomes an issue. And then it then the work is done for us. Now we have a new thing we can talk about. And everybody understands what we mean. And I think Democrats, we are, I think, George W. Bush, this is this is all old stuff. George W. Bush got a lot of heat for because someone in administration said, like, we're in the reality creating business,

we're in the reality distorting business. And it was obviously correctly, I think, they were criticized for having said that. But there was some kernel of truth in there, which is when you are at the national, when you are have a platform at the national level, you can distort what people think you can change what people think, and you can create issues from nothing. And Democrats don't do that. We do not, we do not take things that are 3% and 4% and said, let's make 70% of the country care. Or the other thing we do is, you know, they step pedal all these lies about critical race theory.

And our reaction is, well, these are all lies. And here's the truth about what's going on in schools. But Andrew Lawrence, who works for Media Matters, said, you know, one thing Democrats could say is Republicans want to put cameras in the classrooms to watch your children all day, right? Because some of them have said that they want to do that to make sure that teachers aren't teaching critical race theory. like put them on. I think it's not a bad idea. Like put them on the fucking defensive and talk about all the crazy shit that they want to do, as opposed to just being like they're lying.

Here's the truth. Yeah. I mean, you're sort of seeing, you know, Jen Psaki trying to do a bit of this messaging to say that actually, you know, if you voted against the COVID relief bill, you voted to defund the police because there was a bunch of funding for police. relief bill, you voted to defund the police because there was a bunch of funding for police. And it's like, you know, I don't know if that will be effective, but it's interesting that it really pissed off a bunch of the speakers at CPAC and it led them to repeat our charge for once and not us repeat theirs. But, you know, the debate on Twitter today was whether Biden's speeches are boring and, you know, whether that matters. It's like what swing voter is watching an entire presidential speech? Zero. There was a bunch of fucking anti-vax nonsense at CPAC. Every Republican, you know, from Mitch McConnell to Kevin McCarthy to all of them should be asked today, why don't you fucking speak out against the anti-vax conspiracy bullshit in your own,

like divide their party on this, right? Put them on the defensive over this. I know it's something it is. I think it's both like it's a it's a constitutional issue. Like Democrats just aren't built to do these kinds of relentless campaigns to keep at it week after week after week. And it's it's a systemic problem because we don't have a Fox News that will drive this message for the Democratic Party, even when their politicians aren't talking about it. There's no one to carry that baton. Yeah, the truth is that Fox News creates the message. Yes. And they carry it, right? I mean, the critical race theory guy, I think, emerged on Tucker Carlson or on Fox somewhere and then was brought to the White House to consult. Yeah, there's this symbiotic relationship between Trump and the right-wing media, which

is he both reflects and shapes the message on Fox, right? So like his speeches are interesting to listen to in that and that you know this is what's happening on Fox and this is what's going to happen on Fox. I mean, you look at a colonel like Donald Trump calling Mark Zuckerberg Zuckerbucks. Imagine if a Democrat had done that. You'd have a week of stories about it. It would become an issue. It would grab hold. And we just don't have that infrastructure. I mean, imagine if like it is so inconceivable that four days from now, Kevin McCarthy is being asked, like, do you believe there's an anti-Semitism problem within the Republican Party after Donald Trump

said Zuckerbucks? And here are these five other examples. Inconceivable, will not happen. Not the way our politics works. Okay, when we come back, Congresswoman Katie Porter is here to talk with Tommy and Lovett about President Biden's new executive order that targets big business and big tech. On Friday afternoon, President Biden signed an expansive executive order targeting anti-competitive and monopolistic practices in agriculture, airlines, healthcare, broadband, and banking. Here to talk about this executive order and the larger fight against monopolies and corporate consolidation, she is a representative from California's 45th District. She puts the trust in antitrust. That doesn't work.

Congresswoman Katie Porter, thank you so much for being here. Welcome back. I'm excited to be here with you both. Whiteboard enthusiast. Thank you so much. So when President Biden announced this plan, he said capitalism without competition isn't capitalism, it's exploitation. We're 40 years into the experiment of letting giant corporations accumulate more and more power. And what have we gotten from it? Less growth, weakened investment, fewer small businesses. I expect that would get an amen from you. So President Biden said- You just want to say one thing. The point about capitalism without competition is so important. And so we really need to understand that what

this all is about is about making sure that the conditions for healthy, stable capitalism are met. Now, I do want to just pick one tiny, tiny, tiny little bit of disagreement with the president. And I would say it's not just the last four years this has been a problem. It's probably the last 14 years. In other words, I think it got a lot worse under the Trump administration, like what didn't get worse under the Trump administration. But some of this has roots in decisions that Reagan and others made. And so, you know, I think if anything, I would say that people should understand this is a now spanning two generation problem in our economy that needs to be addressed. And, you know, when there's less competition, what happens?

And when there's less competition, what happens? Income inequality, racial inequality, wealth inequality, they all wipe. And that inequality, Jerome Powell, don't take it from me, take it from the chairman of the Fed, that is our number one threat to our economy. Yeah. I mean, Biden was pointing back to Robert Bork. And I think you could probably say that there were decisions made during the Obama administration where we were not tough enough on mergers and acquisitions and antitrust issues. So point well taken.

So, you know, Biden said this plan could help us get cheaper prescription drugs, a refund for that $30 airplane Wi-Fi that never actually logged in for you. For me, the one that jumped out at me was maybe, you know, those of us who pay a ton of money for God awful cable and internet, you might be able to get some of your money back from spectrum wireless. I mean, we call that all Americans. All Americans. Find me the American who feels like they're getting a great value from their internet company because I want to sign up with their provider. Me too. So again, like that's a huge, broad set of issues. Can you help us understand, like, how does this executive order actually work? How would it tackle all those things?

Yeah. So the executive order contains 72 different initiatives within it. That's a lot. So I'm going to focus on a couple of the keystone kind of major fundamental principles within those 72 initiatives. And there are two I want to start with. One is robust public enforcement of antitrust laws. And that means not only the DOJ and the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC, doing their job, but also recognizing that given the pervasiveness of monopoly power across our economy, that we need agencies, including the FDA, the USDA, the FDA, the USDA, this is the FCC. This is an across government, across agency initiative to pay attention to the concentration of economic power, to monopoly effects, and that public enforcement is really important. Now, the second part to that, though, is

strengthening private enforcement. And this is where, for example, competitors who may say that a larger company, a monopoly power, engaged in actions that squeezed them out, that prevented competition. And you have to have both. It's built into our antitrust laws, that system of both public and private enforcement. So those are really, really important things. The other thing that the executive order does is it directs the government to sort of change its frame on antitrust and to make kind of put their hat on with taking a hard look at what is going to reduce competition about this or that action, whether it's a merger, whether it's a pricing change, whatever it is, approval of a drug, ask the question, will this reduce competition? Doesn't

mean the deal shouldn't go forward, doesn't mean that the merger should not be approved, but you've got to put that perspective on. You also have to be looking back, and this is the other big part. You also have to be looking back, and this is the other big part. The DOJ has long had the power, the FTC has had the power, to unwind deals that create monopoly power and interfere with fair competition. So when companies apply for pre-merger approval, pre-clearance to merge, they make assertions. They say, it's okay. We'll still compete. This won't cause any harm in the marketplace. If that turns out not to be true after the fact,

which has often been the case in recent history, then the government has the existing authority to go back and unwind that merger. And so the executive order directs government to look hard at these past deals, not just to set a new path forward, but also to unwind some of the mistakes of the past. So this merger point is really interesting to me. So the executive order was also released with all this background on how there are all these merger-induced price increases over time. And that shows a clear harm to the consumer, I think. But a lot of what we're talking about when it comes to big tech companies are acquiring competitors. And in some of those cases, like Facebook, for example, the product itself is free. So how does the government demonstrate that those mergers

cause harm for consumers and then make the case to walk it back? Excellent question. So two points I want to make here. One, monopolies are not necessarily, all big businesses are not monopolies. Okay. Virtually all monopolies are big in the sense that they control a lot of the market, but there are plenty of big businesses out there that are not monopolies. So that's important for people to understand. This is not an attack on big. It's an attack on a certain kind of big business that's engaging in behavior that lessens competition and hurts our economy. So that's one thing to understand. With regard to big tech, your question about, well, Facebook is free to me, right? How can there be a competition problem? Well, the point is it's not just about the consumer. It's also about the competitors.

Facebook's competitors are not us as customers. Facebook's competitors are other companies who are trying to develop competing platforms for speech to sell digital advertising on. And the way that some of the actions of Google or Facebook or some of these companies have lessened the ability of new startup companies to enter the marketplace. And what that does is ultimately, even in the case of a free product, Tommy, it lessens your choice. So even if it's free, if I have fewer choices in the marketplace, even for a free product, that's damaging our overall economy because we're not developing the best products that we can. So a lot of this EO is aimed at these specific consumer harms, right? We talked about a few, but there's others, the right to repair. There are these

anti-competitive practices that affect workers, like licensing requirements, actually something conservatives, this appeals to conservatives too. But you talked about addressing the underlying conditions from which these abuses come. And it seems like there's pieces of the EO that are aimed at stopping these mergers or making it more difficult or bringing more scrutiny onto these mergers. The Biden administration has put Tim Wu and Lena Khan into positions to oversee a lot of this. People take that as a really good sign. What does it look like to you for the administration to actually begin addressing some of these underlying conditions that led to so much consolidation in the first place? Yeah, so I think what it's going to mean is, one, I mentioned all agencies. This is not just the

fault or the responsibility of the DOJ or of the FTC. All agencies need to be watching for anti-competitive practices. And by the way, an antitrust violation doesn't mean that you eliminate the competition. It means that you substantially lessen the competition. That's the relevant legal standard here. And so I think it means that we have our antennas up about whether this might be occurring across government agencies. We do need to actually beef up the antitrust enforcement work. Since 2000, we've done about 18%, we spent about 18% less on antitrust enforcement today than we did in 2000, even though the competition has gone up. So I think for different, one of the biggest things that I think this executive order is going to do is get the attention of every single cabinet secretary, every deputy secretary, every principal, first deputy, everybody. They're going to have to start

thinking about, is competition a problem in the marketplaces or the areas that we work, where we are trying to accomplish policy? And this is something Congress has to think about. For example, as part of President Biden's Build Back Better plan, and bipartisan infrastructure, we're talking about expanding broadband. Terrific. But we need to look at the lack of competition and the lack of consumer choice in the broadband market. So I think that's a perfect example of Congress as we go to pass a

bill that expands broadband, we need to be recognizing broadband as a marketplace where there's a problem with market power and consolidation and lack of consumer choice and lack of competition. And how we write that and how we exactly do the work of expanding broadband should reflect that concern. So one aspect of this is you're saying, does this help or reduce competition as the centerpiece of how we think about antitrust, about monopoly? We've spent now decades watching conservatives build up this other idea, which is, can you point to harm, specific harm against consumers? Do you worry at all about what will happen when this EO kind of goes into the buzzsaw of right wing courts? And what do you think Congress needs

to do to kind of prevent that outcome? Yeah, so I think first off, when we first thing we need to do is see agencies take action. That's step one. And if the agencies are doing a good job, I think reaching out explaining what is and is not OK, giving examples, issuing regulatory guidance about what they're going to be looking for, that will help hopefully let the business community know what they need to do to stay on the right side of the antitrust laws. If there are enforcement cases brought, you're correct. We have a very conservative judiciary right now, and it's possible that they will not give full effect to, you're correct. We have a very conservative judiciary right now, and it's possible that they will not give full effect to the Sherman antitrust law,

the Clayton antitrust law. And so if that's what happens, if we get those interpretations that are under enforcing and contrary to Congress's intent in passing those laws almost 100 years ago, then Congress needs to be ready to go back to the drawing board and pass additional antitrust regulation. And that's some of what the Judiciary Committee has already been working on doing. So it does feel like antitrust is having a moment. It's antitrust moment in the sun. You have, there's Senator Amy Klobuchar has a book, Josh Hawley, noted monster. He also sees an opportunity for himself.

You have these bipartisan bills you mentioned through the antitrust subcommittee. You've been focusing on this for a long time. Senator Warren's been focusing on this for a long time. What does it look like to you to see antitrust and promoting competition, reducing corporate power where it should be at the center of our politics? How do you make that happen? And what do you think that needs to look like? I'm thrilled it's happening because when I went to run in 2017, this was one of the things I said I wanted to run on. I said, I want to run on consumer protection. I want to run on the fact that big business is flaunting basic laws that make sure our capitalist economy stays strong. And you guys both know, I'm going to call you both democratic

operatives. I think that's fair. But there's this kind of bucket list of stuff that you're supposed to run on. It's like, do you want to run on the environment? Do you want to run on LGBTQ rights? Do you want to run on? So when I was like, I want to run on antitrust, everyone was like, what? What's that? Is that something we do as Democrats? Hell yes. It's something we need to be doing period as policymakers across party lines because we just can't make good economic policy in Congress, including tax law, including issues relating to infrastructure, issues relating to transportation. We just can't make good laws in Congress if the bones of our capitalist economy are atrophied and are weak.

And that's what's happened with our antitrust system. What do you say to critics who argue that Biden's efforts to increase airline competition are misplaced and that we should instead focus more on getting blue checkmarked Twitter users to tweet their complaints during travel delays? Oh, my God. So the whole premise of like a loss for words, you're talking. Thank you for taking this seriously. The whole premise, look, no amount of antitrust enforcement is going to eliminate, nor is it designed to eliminate, consumers individually lifting up their voices to call out wrongdoing.

That continues to happen. It's going to happen. There are plenty of things that airlines are going to do to screw you or me that are not going to be antitrust violations. I don't think that's fair to say. I think that's really, that's really uncalled for. So my best friends are airlines. Yes, like people should continue to raise their voices if they have bad experiences, if they're cheated, they need to keep, you know, whether it's through Twitter or calling

the airline competition or reporting it to their AG or the Federal Trade Commission. That's what it means to have to compete for consumers. But no amount of consumer competition or consumer complaining, I should say, no amount of consumer complaining can address an antitrust violation. trust violation because part inherent in the term antitrust violation is that there's not enough competition for the consumers to shop with their pocketbooks. That means to go find a company that treats them better. Most people who rent or own houses have one choice of an internet provider. So your choice is get ripped off or don't have Wi-Fi or broadband. So you can complain all you want and tag Cox and Comcast and all the other wrongs. Spectrum, yeah.

Spectrum, whoever you want to pick out. No, I hate them, yeah. None of them are good. You're not able to choose to make that consumer choice to pick a different company. That's one of the things that this executive order will do is make clear that they can't lock landlords into only allowing one internet service provider to service buildings. And that's going to create choices for consumers. Consumers may well choose the big companies.

That's fine. They may well choose big companies and then complain about them. Count on it. I think that's highly likely. That's my plan. That's what I'm going to do. But that's the nature of the competition we're talking about. You are the only person who could turn that dumb trolling question from me into a smart,

thoughtful point. And that's why you are our favorite guest. Final question. You say that to everybody. No, we really don't. Some of them are super fucking boring. There was this unfortunate, violent incident at your town hall over the weekend. I just wanted to ask, you know, so what happened? Is everybody doing okay? And, you know, is there concern about this sort of stuff going forward?

Because it is sort of frightening to see the normalization of political violence, whether it was January 6th at the Capitol, whether it was, you know, people acting out at events. It's a trend that seems to be on the rise. Yeah, I mean, it's very, very troubling. And for a couple of reasons, regardless of what your viewpoint was when you came to that event, your ability to get information, to hear what's going on in government, to get your questions asked and answered was reduced by the violence that occurred there. So it wasn't just that it was disruptive for me. It was disruptive

for everybody that was involved. I mean, Irvine, this happened in Irvine. Now let's review. Largest safe, like safest large city in the United States, something like 18 years running. Police presence was there, right? Measures were in place to make sure that the crowd was controlled. I said at the very beginning, everyone is welcome to be here. We're here to talk with each other and listen and learn. Everyone is welcome. Right. So I, I mean, I'm at a loss as to what more we can do to make sure that these events are safe for every single person who

attends. And it was, you know, particularly for me, I mean, there were people in the crowd, people with disabilities, people with mobility devices, very young children who were not able to, to get up and move away from the violence. And so, you know, I would just say to people, if you're really serious about having a debate about what's right and what's wrong, you'll condemn this kind of violence. And the fact that some people on the right are not condemning it tells you that they don't want to have a discussion. They want to, as the organizer of this counter event said, confront. And that is not a civil dialogue. Confronting someone is an aggressive act. It's not an act of mutual respect. It's inconsistent with

democracy. Yeah. When you're out there Um, you're, when you're out there doing these 10 hours, you're practicing democracy and you're open to hearing from everybody and let everybody be part of that conversation. But some people in our politics don't want to do that anymore. No, I'll just tell you, like having been a professor, you know, I'm very cognizant of the problem of wanting to call on the smart kid. So like you call on the Tom Evian or you don't call on the John Favreau because you know one's preparing, one's not. So that's a real phenomenon. So to avoid any actions like this that might be perceived or actual in terms of who gets to talk, whose question gets asked, who gets information, we invite every attendee to put a question

into this huge bingo ball spinner that we have. And we have a member of our youth advisory board spin that and questions are drawn at random. So I have done everything I can to make sure that every possible attendee from every walk of life and every political perspective has the opportunity to participate in a civil way. And so having done that, to then have people make that impossible, to create an unsafe environment, to engage in violence, it's deeply, deeply discouraging, and it presents very real challenges for our democracy. Yeah. Well, we're so sorry that happened. Yeah. Terrible situation, but thank you so much for being out there, having those town halls, and for joining us. Katie Porter, Congressman Katie Porter, thank you so much. Thank you.

Welcome back. It isn't always easy to keep up with news about the pandemic. Every day is a constant flood of new developments, scary headlines and seemingly contradictory studies that leave us with all kinds of questions like, how worried should we be about the Delta variant? Will we need booster shots? How do we make sure everyone else gets their first shot? And when can kids under 12 get theirs? Here to help us answer some of these questions, the United States Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy. Dr. Murthy, welcome to the pod. Well, thanks so much. I'm so glad to be with you. So I know that Pfizer will be holding a briefing with you and other public health officials to make their case as to why they're seeking FDA authorization for a booster shot for COVID-19.

Dr. Fauci was on the Sunday shows yesterday saying he doesn't believe a booster is required at this time. Meanwhile, countries like the UK and Israel have already announced plans to offer boosters to certain populations in the fall. Can you talk about why there's a difference of opinion here? Well, it's a great question, John. And the decision on boosters really has to come from a broad look at the data. And the data has to effectively tell us that immunity is waning among vaccinated people and waning to a significant degree that you're seeing breakthrough infections. And that's a point at which you would consider a booster.

Now I want to make a distinction here. There are certain populations, take immunocompromised individuals, where there have been questions about whether they should receive a third dose just as part of the routine series. So most people will get two if you're getting an mRNA vaccine or one if you're getting Johnson and Johnson vaccine. But there have been questions of should they get a third shot if you're getting an mRNA vaccine or one if you're getting Johnson & Johnson vaccine. But there have been questions of should they get a third shot if they're on the two dose regimen to give them an extra boost in terms of antibody production? That may very well happen. Israel has decided to go that pathway and others may follow. But that is separate from this question of does everybody, does the general, require boosters. And so what we really need to do is look at the data from here, the United States, other countries in the world, and see if, in fact,

immunity is waning, breakthrough infections are increasing. And if that's the case, then boosters would be recommended. But at the end of the day, the FDA and the CDC will make the decision on boosters. You know, pharmaceutical companies may opine on this, they may apply for authorization for booster shots, but they don't make the recommendation yet. So if you're someone who was vaccinated back in December or January, say, you know, maybe you're over 65 or you have an underlying condition, while you guys are looking at the data, can you still be confident that your protection against the Delta variant hasn't waned at all? What we still see is at the six-month mark,

we've certainly seen that protection remains pretty strong, and particularly protection against death and severe disease, including hospitalization. And case in point, if you look at the deaths that are taking place in the United States right now, more than 99% of them are taking place among individuals who are unvaccinated. So that means, again, the vaccinated individuals still at this point in July have a high degree of protection.

That doesn't mean that that's going to last forever. But that's why we're really closely following cohorts of people in the United States and talking to our counterparts around the world to see if and when that immunity does wane. And if it does, we will be prepared to give those boosters. We've already been working on ensuring that a supply will be there. Yeah, I had a question about timing. If you all decide that boosters are needed, will Americans who need them be able to get them in the fall like the British and the Israelis, or are we going to sort of be behind the eight ball on this? We're planning for a variety of circumstances, and so the supply should be there. And, you know,

and the good news is that we've got good supply right now. And we have been in dialogue with the companies, the manufacturers to ensure that if, and when we need those boosters, we will have them in adequate supply. Here's a self-interested question that I'm going to ask anyway, because I've been also hearing it from a lot of other people. I got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.

There have been some experts who said it may not be as protective against Delta as the mRNA vaccines. I also live with an unvaccinated one-year-old. Do you think I need a booster? So this is a really important question. And we've been getting this question a lot from folks who've gotten the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. So here's what I would say. If you look at the data actually from Israel, from the UK, what we see is that with the Pfizer vaccine, that there's still a high degree of protection, right? Particularly in hospitalizations and deaths. Now we don't have the same equivalent data,

real world data, if you will, for the J&J vaccine with Delta. Part of the reason is that far fewer people in the United States have received the J&J vaccine. The vast majority have received the other two. So it takes a little bit longer to actually see a signal there. But there is reason to be hopeful that the protection is quite strong. Number one, J&J has actually been very effective against all the other variants we've seen to date, particularly with hospitalizations and deaths. The second reason is that laboratory studies that have been done now from multiple sources with people who have been immunized with J&J and we then take their antibodies and look

at how effective it is in neutralizing the Delta variant in the laboratory. In these multiple instances in the lab, they have found the J&J sort of induced antibodies to be quite effective in neutralizing the Delta variant. And the third reason to be hopeful is that there is a cousin, if you will, of the J&J vaccine, that's the AstraZeneca vaccine made on a similar platform that has in real world data in the UK shown to be very effective at reducing hospitalizations due to Delta. So all of these point in the right direction doesn't mean we're not going to, you know, continue to look at the data and make sure that this carries out in the real world among those who are vaccinated with J&J, but give good reason to be hopeful. And at this point,

that's why there's no official recommendation being made for a J&J booster. So I should wait for the data then, basically? Should wait for the data, absolutely. And there are some people who may decide they want to talk to their doctor and they want to go ahead with the booster. People may make individual decisions, you know, in those circumstances that, you know, if they feel they're at higher risk, you know, in terms of their own immune system or people they're living with, then we understand that. But the official recommendation will be made, you know, based on the broader data. But we're feeling hopeful that protection will continue to be strong against Delta.

You mentioned that, you know, all the vaccines offer very strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization, even against the Delta variant. What do we know so far about breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated people? If you have a mild or asymptomatic breakthrough infection, how likely are you to pass it on to someone else? Can you still suffer some of the conditions associated with long COVID? It's such an important question. And it points to the fact that while these vaccines are highly effective, and I mean, in the case of the mRNA vaccines, we're talking about greater than 90% effectiveness of preventing symptomatic infection.

They are not 100% effective. So there will be some breakthrough infections. And we've seen that not just in the United States, but in other countries, they tend to be rare. And a couple of things we found some breakthrough infections. And we've seen that not just in the United States, but in other countries, they tend to be rare. And a couple of things we've found about breakthrough infections. One is in addition to being infrequent, they also tend to be milder, you know,

than people who are unvaccinated. And we even find actually that when we try to check the viral load, the amount of virus in someone's system, it also seems to be much lower. So all of that is good because it means that not only is the infection milder if you do have breakthroughs, but your likelihood of passing it on to someone else is also lower. Now, we don't have enough data yet to be able to put specific numbers around the transmission risk, but to transmit it to someone else, if you were infected, you'd both need to get

sick yourself, which again, the risk is low, and then have enough virus in your system to transmit it to someone else. And again, there too, we're finding, even if you get sick, the viral load is low. So all of those are reasons to be optimistic that you're in good shape. But here's what I would say. And I say, this is a fellow dad, like you, who's got young kids at home who are not old enough to be vaccinated yet. Some people in those circumstances, living at home with someone who's unvaccinated, immunocompromised, or if they themselves are living in an area where there's a high degree of a virus circulating because the vaccination rates are low,

they may make certain decisions like they want to keep wearing masks to protect themselves. And even if there's a low risk of transmission, maybe they want to be extra cautious. And if some people want to make those decisions, it's absolutely fine to do so. But what you should know is that your protection from the vaccine is high. To give you a sense, you know, as a doctor prescribed many vaccines over the years, this is really on the high end of the spectrum, the kind of protection you're getting from the COVID-19 vaccine. So that's something to be grateful for. So obviously the only way to truly crush the pandemic is to get a lot more people vaccinated, both here in the U.S. and around the world. Here in the United States, what have you found to be some of the most effective strategies for persuading people

to get their shot who may have initially been more hesitant? Yeah, that's such a good question. That is the question of the moment, because we've gotten now to the really hard part of the vaccination effort, where the vast majority of the unvaccinated, I'd say about 2 thirds of the unvaccinated are now pretty inclined against vaccination. There are about a third of those who are unvaccinated

who are in the wait and see category. So a couple of things, I'll tell you what doesn't work. What doesn't work is going to folks who are in the wait and see category. So a couple of things, I'll tell you what doesn't work. What doesn't work is going to folks who are concerned about being vaccinated and trying to bowl them over, you know, with your knowledge about data and trials and such. What also doesn't work is ridiculing people for their concerns about being vaccinated. What is effective, I believe, is number one, pausing to listen to folks, understand where their concerns are coming from. And everyone is not the same here. Some people may have been exposed to misinformation online. Others may have had bad experiences with the healthcare system that may have led them to distrust things like vaccines. So first, listening is critical. The second is to

share your own experiences. How did you decide to get the vaccine? What was it like when you actually got it? But the third thing, John, is just to realize that trust is really the currency that matters here. You know, it doesn't matter how much I know about the vaccines and the data, or how much experience I have as a doctor, if somebody out there doesn't trust me, then it's really not going to move the needle in terms of how they how they're thinking or help them make a decision. So that's where engaging with folks who are trusted messengers matters about 80 percent of people are saying that they want to talk to their doctor about making a decision about getting vaccinated or not that's one of the reasons we've been working very closely with doctors and nurses and other health professionals

to make sure they've got the tools that they need to have conversations with folks but about 50 of people say they want to talk to a family member or a friend, again, someone they trust to make that decision. And it's why finally, I just say to folks, you don't have to have a medical degree or public degree, public health degree, to be helpful on this vaccination effort to help protect our country and your community against COVID-19. What you need is just to recognize that by virtue of having trusted relationships with people, you have great power, and you can use that power to help people get accurate information so they can make decisions about how to protect themselves and by extension, their families. Dr. Fauci said on Sunday that

there should be more mandates at the local level for businesses and schools to require COVID-19 vaccinations. Do you agree with that? I certainly think that you're going to see more mandates and requirements at the local level. The hospitals routinely require their workers to actually have the flu vaccine. It's very common. I'm assuming that many will also make a similar decision around the COVID-19 vaccine. We know that more than 100 universities, in fact nearly 200 now, are talking about having requirements for vaccination for their students. Some workplaces are contemplating it as well. And if the FDA does in fact, and their review of the data from Pfizer and Moderna end up issuing full approval for the vaccines, then you will see even more

local institutions stepping up to say, you know what, we're going to require this. So I think it's going to happen. And I think it's look, it's not an unreasonable thing for institutions to make that requirement, particularly hospitals where, look, if you're working in a hospital as a nurse, or as a doctor, as a therapist, you've got a responsibility to protect the patients that are coming into you for care. Some of them may have been vaccinated, but may not have built up the protection because not everyone responds to vaccines. Some may have not gotten vaccinated for various reasons. And you've got to make sure you're protected

with the vaccines that you don't expose them. So we're going to see more of this. What you're not going to see, though, is you're not going to see the federal government coming in requiring vaccines for the population at large. Can I ask what the thinking is there? Because it feels like if, you know, vaccine requirements are the right thing to do for whether it's a hospital system, like you said, or schools. And also, you know, we have a long history in this country of requiring vaccinations for all kinds of things.

And that's been part of our history. Why have you and the Biden administration decided that you sort of want to stay away from any kind of federal either vaccine mandate or even the sort of suggestion from President Biden and the federal government that, yes, there should be requirements for vaccines? Well, it's a good question. And I would say that this is actually in keeping historically with what we've done as a country, like the requirements that you see around vaccination for schools, for example, and on students. This is something that happens at the local level, where local school districts are, in fact, making decisions about requiring these vaccines. And so that very well may happen this time around as well at the local level. But again, these are locally driven decisions. The federal government has historically not come in and mandated vaccinations at the school level or in workplaces.

The one place where the federal government has sometimes had mandates is actually for members of the military, where you are often required, in fact, to take the vaccines. And so will that happen again? Well, we'll see. The Department of Defense is considering a number of options here. But the Department of Defense has also done a fairly good job in getting almost 70% of its active duty members vaccinated at this point, which is pretty good. And they're not giving up.

They're planning to continue that effort. So this is why I think that you're going to see that same historical pattern here with the government playing a supporting role here on the federal side, but likely with local government and with institutions making decisions about requirements. And I think that will only grow with time. CDC last week urged all schools to fully reopen in the fall. What can you tell parents or teachers or kids who might be nervous about this, especially since there aren't vaccinations approved yet for kids under 12? Number one, look, I'd say again, as a fellow parent, if you're looking at the fall at the prospect of your unvaccinated kids going to school and you're feeling a little nervous, there's nothing wrong with you. You know, a lot of us, you know, are going through this transition and trying to figure out how to make sure our kids

are okay. The CDC and its new guidance actually gave us some additional tools to ensure that in fact our kids will be safe. And they did that in fact by offering a series of layers of protection that they are suggesting schools implement, which will all collectively help reduce the risk that our kids will get sick even if they are unvaccinated. Those layers include testing, masking, distancing or when possible, improving ventilation, making sure kids stay home if they get sick. All of these collectively can make a real difference and the good news is that today we've seen when precautions are taken that the amount of transmission that happens in schools

is actually quite low and so that's been reassuring. But with all that said, we've got to remain vigilant. And that's why as a parent, as soon as the vaccine becomes available for my children, as soon as it goes through the FDA review process and is given an authorization or approval, then I'll make sure my kids get it. And until then, we're closely engaged with our school,

my wife and I with our kids' schools, to make sure we understand what precautions are being taken to make sure that these layers of protection that the CDC released last week and recommended that they're being followed and implemented as well. And what's your best guess on a timeline for vaccines being approved by the FDA for kids under 12? I think it's possible that we may see a vaccine available before the end of this calendar year. We know that the trials are already underway with children under 12.

That's good news. They've been underway for months. And, you know, when, sadly, when there is more infection in the community, the trials proceed more quickly because in the presence of more infection, you get a better sense of whether the vaccines are working or not.

And so we've had, unfortunately, still ongoing infection brewing. You know, we kind of came down to almost 10,000 cases a day, which was a low for the United States, but we have now increased the most recently over 26,000 cases a day. So I think we will get the data relatively soon. And I'm optimistic that by the end of the year,

we'll have a decision from the FDA about whether our kids under 12 can take the vaccine or not. Dr. Murthy, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America. Really appreciate the time and hope you come back soon. Well, thank you so much. It was really good to be with you. And you know, one last thing I just share and something that's on my mind a lot is, I mean, I don't think we talk about nearly as much with this pandemic is really the cost to our mental health and our well-being. You know, this has been an incredibly difficult year and almost year and a half now for everyone in the country. It doesn't matter if you, you know, are rich or poor, if you're living in an

urban or rural area, if you are, if you ended up getting COVID or not, this pandemic has affected all of our lives in a profound way and turned it upside down. Certainly hit some much, much harder than others, but hit all of us in some way. And what I worry about as I look to the future is about how we're gonna contend with that impact on our health, our mental health and our wellbeing. You know that rates of depression and anxiety

increased significantly during the pandemic, including among young people who were struggling with high rates of anxiety and depression and suicide before the pandemic began. So I think we have this opportunity, John, as we think about coming out of this pandemic, we have an opportunity to think proactively about two things. One, how do we really address mental health in this country, talk about it really honestly, provide the investment in prevention that we know works, but haven't actually made that investment? How do we provide real treatment, accessible, high quality treatment to people who've been struggling for too long? The second thing we've got to do is we've got to have the conversation about what we want our post pandemic lives to

really look like. If we don't do anything differently, but just keep moving forward, we will snap back to 2019, how we lived our life before the pandemic. But if you're like me, and like many out there, you've probably had moments where you thought during this pandemic, huh, this may be this pandemic about how I wanna live my life with it differently.

Maybe something that you've realized about spending more time with your family, or maybe it's something you've realized about spending more time with your family, or maybe it's something you've realized about maybe wanting to move to be closer to friends and to those you love, or maybe you realize that you need more purpose or meaning, like in your job, or that you want to go back to school for that degree that you've been thinking about or pursue a hobby. Whatever it may be, there are realizations we've all had during this pandemic that we can incorporate into our thinking about what our post-pandemic life looks like. But if we don't have those conversations, we don't explore

what life could look like post-pandemic, then I worry that we will lose a lot of the potential silver linings of this pandemic, the lessons, if you will, from the pandemic. So that's a conversation I'm excited to certainly think about in my own life, but also excited to support, like in our country. It's something that our office will be working on, how to support a larger series of conversations around the post-pandemic life. And if we approach it, I think, in an open, healthy, honest way, my hope is that we can build a life that is more fulfilling, that's healthier and certainly happier for many of us than the life we even had before the pandemic began. I agree. That's such an incredibly

important conversation to have about about mental health and well-being and I do think like I often think that one small step we can all take is to sort of give each other a break extend some some kindness and grace to everyone else because I've been thinking this throughout the pandemic is everyone is always going through something that you may not know, right? And however you've dealt with the pandemic, you can't know for sure what someone else has gone through over the last year. And so it's a good opportunity to show some kindness. And that doesn't fix everything, but it's one small step at the beginning. Yeah, and it goes a long way. And you put it so beautifully. Kindness is powerful. It's one of the most powerful sources

of healing that we have. And I say that as a doctor has written prescriptions for many medicines that intended to heal over the years. But I've been struck time and time again, that kindness and compassion, they really go a long way. And if we learned one thing from this pandemic, John, it's that we need each other. It's like as much as we may be able to do on our own, we can't get through difficult times like pandemics or other hardships solely on our own. And in fact, when we step up to help one another, we not only extend assistance and lift someone else up,

but we remind ourselves that we have value to bring to the world. There are a lot of people walking around who feel, you know, like their value and their worth is not significant, who wonder at times if they're really bringing anything to the world around them i've certainly felt like that you know at times throughout my life but that is why service to others you know fueled by kindness and compassion is sometimes one of the most powerful things we can do for others but also one of the most reaffirming things we can do for ourselves and when i imagine the post-pandemic life when i imagine the post-pandemic society that we could build together, I imagine a society fueled by kindness, informed

by compassion, and one in which all of us, not just some of us, will thrive. That is very well said. Thank you, Dr. Murthy. Appreciate it. Of course. Take care. Good to see you. Thanks to Congresswoman Katie Porter and Surgeon general vivek murthy for joining us today good to be with you guys again right here in the studio look at us lovely to be here and we'll sync up look at us all synced up we'll talk to you again on thursday bye pod save america is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas.

Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Narmel Konian, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.