Pod Save America - David Sedaris is Mostly Bark, Some Bite

Episode Date: June 14, 2026

Legendary humorist David Sedaris stops by the studio to talk to Lovett about his new book of essays, "The Land and Its People," his father's support for Trump, and what he learned about liberals when he was bitten by a dog. They also unpack Sedaris's frustration with being labeled "queer," his nonnegotiable rule about what not to discuss in a relationship, and his unique approach to growing older.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here . For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast, episode title, and episode date.

Welcome to Potsave America. I'm John Lovett. I just wrapped a great conversation with the writer David Sedaris, who's out with a new collection of essays called The Land and Its People. We talked about his father's support for Trump, why no one cared when David was bit by a dog, what you can't talk about in a healthy relationship. Moby Dick, International McDonald's, the word queer, punching down, why he avoids pride parades, and what he fears most about getting old. And speaking of pride over on the Leverter Leave a channel, this week, we are doing a pride special with Mark and Delacado from Hacks, drag race, winner, Mikey Meeks, Outsko, Katska, and the legend himself, Bruce Valanche, plus many more guests. Check out, love it or leave it every Wednesday and Friday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. All right. Now, let's go to my conversation with David Sedaris. David Sedaris, so nice to meet you, so nice to have you here. Oh, thanks so much for having me.

Ten years ago, after Trump won the first time, you wrote an essay for the Paris Review about arguing with your father over whether Trump is an asshole. And then the next day, your dad says to you, so are you still talking to me? And I thought that was interesting because he didn't say I'm not talking to you. He said, are you still talking to me? And I often feel like with, especially inside of a family, when you're arguing about Trump, there's this understanding that whether it's admitted or not, you know he's a bad person. And there's something a little bit wrong with voting for him.

and people are looking for some kind of forgiveness or a lack of judgment, even though they know they did something wrong. And I'm wondering if you felt that when you were talking to your father, other people in your life that voted for Trump. Well, with my dad, it started really. He was like a Republican, like just wanted to keep more of his own money. And then he voted for Jesse Helms, which was a thing, because Jesse Helms, we grew up in Raleigh. and he was on the, he was, did editorials on the news. And even as a kid, you were like, wow, that guy's really severe, you know. And then he ran for office.

And it really, it really, when he voted for Jesse Helms, it just became a different thing. And then conservative radio came along and then he started listening to Rush Limbaugh. And then he, Fox News came along. And so then he was just in it all. the time. He was in it in his car and he was in it at home. And it was on all the time, like a rage machine, you know. And then when he, he moved into an assisted living when he was like 95 and he didn't know how to work the TV. And for the first time, he wasn't up. He wasn't being agitated every minute. And toward the end of his life, he regretted. He told me he

regretted voting for Trump, which was interesting to me. But I, like I have a friend who in England, who is a politician and he and I pick up trash together, right? When I first moved to the countryside in England, my boyfriend Hugh wrote a letter to the council saying like, what's going on with all this trash on the side of the road? And they invited us to the clean and tidy advisory board, right, to a meeting. So we met this guy who's a local politician and he goes and picks up trash himself. And so I do it myself every day between four and six hours. And sometimes he comes with me, right?

And he was a Tory, but now he's reform, right? Now he's Nigel Farage. And he said, you're not going to want to talk to me anymore. And I said, oh, no, that's not the case at all. You know, like, I would never stop talking to him over that. He answers any question I ask him. You know, we don't, and I appreciate that. I'd like to know why he feels the way that he does.

We've never raised our voices to each other. I think it's a great relationship. And when my dad was like, you're not going to, you're right. He, well, I think part of it too, I mean, my dad, North Carolina, you know, gay marriage was illegal in North Carolina. And then they introduced like a resolution that would make it extra, extra, extra, extra, extra, extra illegal. And my dad was so happy to tell me he voted for that.

So happy to tell me that. And I, and I, happened to be in North Carolina at that time. And, you know, my sister-in-law, her sister is gay. And I said, why shouldn't she be allowed to marry her girlfriend? It sends the wrong message. And I said, what message is that? And then he couldn't really answer.

He'd heard the answer on the radio or on TV, but he couldn't quite remember. what the what was wrong with it right he couldn't quite recall those words um anyway he's a dick you know just a complete dick but and that was like the least of it you know what i mean it wasn't like he was a dick because of that he was like a massive dick anyway and then there was that right right no for sure but but even like what you're saying about this this the the person who said he went reform like oh you're probably you're probably not going to want to talk to me like i've never heard a liberal I voted for Mamdani, you're probably not going to want to talk to me. Like, there's some kind of acknowledgement inside of it that it's an act of, like, not sabotage,

but like, of, I'm so mad about everything. I'm going to do this. I'm going to vote for these terrible people. Or I'm going to become extreme. My reasons are legitimate, which you don't appreciate. But I know on some level I'm doing something wrong, right? Like, that to me is what I often hear from. And I feel that inside of when families were having these kinds of arguments.

And I'm wondering if that's what you felt from your dad, even though you felt like he was also. I felt it was more like that me being gay had something to do with it. It would be like saying to a Jewish friend, I voted for the Nazi party. You're probably not going to want to talk to me. Whereas you would say to somebody who wasn't Jewish, you would say, yeah, I voted for the Nazi party. And you wouldn't add, you're probably not going to want to talk to me. Because you can see how your vote is. going to make this person's life more miserable.

But did you know, I know towards the very end of his life, your father did say, really acknowledge how much success you had and what kind of like what you had built. But at the same time, like he's looking you in the eye and being like, yeah, I'm just voting for the thing that is going to make your life worse. And I'm just doing it because I have some of my friends from the radio. Like what is that? Like, is there any acknowledgement? Like, what do you think that was?

Like, what, why couldn't he, why did he care more about what he was seeing on the television than he did about you? Oh, because it was all about money. Just money. I mean, yeah, ultimately it all came down to money. I mean, if, oh my goodness, if, if, you know, if a candidate said, I'm going to bring back concentration camps, but I'm going to knock $2 off your taxes, my father would have voted for that person. person because he would save $2. I mean, $2 was that important to him. It's not like he didn't have $2. He was just, it was just, ultimately he was all about money, you know, about keeping more of his money. So in 19, I was looking at one of your older diaries. And in 1990, you and your dad and your brother Paul spent 18 hours in a pickup truck together driving from Illinois to North Carolina. And, you. for someone who's now saying your father was a dick,

you also spent a lot of time together. Like my father and I, I don't know what we would talk about if we were in a car together for 18 hours. Do you remember that drive? I remember it clearly. Yeah, but if my father and I were in a car for 18 hours, then he just would have criticized me for 18 hours. But my brother was there.

And so that made it fun, that my brother was there. But yeah, I often think of that. I was moving to New York City, So I was leaving Chicago, and then I had some stuff I was going to bring to North Carolina, and then I was going to go, I was going to paint a house. My father had rental property, and I was going to paint a house, and then use that money to move to New York with. So we drove from Chicago to North Carolina, and I painted the house, and I don't know what the deal was maybe that I was going to get $2,000 for painting the house, right?

And I painted the house, and he said, I'll give you $500. I mean, everything about my father prepared me for Trump. You know, someone works for you and then you don't pay them. Or then you say, I'll pay you a quarter of what you're going to pay me. You get a quarter or you get nothing. So he was only a dick. You know what I mean? He might have driven me.

You know, that was nice of him. But, I mean, it wasn't like he was just taking like a day's vacation from being a dick, you know. So now it's all these years later and you're telling the Wall Street Journal that you bought a $2,500 coat for your tour. So things have changed. Things have picked up for you. You're traveling around the world. Talk to me about what international McDonald's has taught you, seeing McDonald's in other countries and what it teaches you about the world and about America. I don't, like I eat McDonald's once a year in the Dallas airport because I find myself,

at lunchtime in the Dallas airport at least once a year, and there's really no other place to eat, right? But when I go to other countries, I just love to see what McDonald's is often, like the Grand Canyon Burger. We don't have the Grand Canyon Burger here. You know, the Brooklyn Burger. I don't even know what would be on a Brooklyn Burger,

but you go to other countries and you see billboards, and so I always write it down. I don't know. But you don't eat them. You just go through, you don't try them. No, I just write them down. And have them on my list of things that McDonald's offers and other,

countries. Like I don't, I don't necessarily know what they've, what they've got here. But I think if they had a Grand Canyon burger, I would have heard about it or I would have seen an ad for it. Yeah, they don't have that. I go there all the time. When I was in Japan, when I was in Japan, I was visiting a friend in Japan, it was 20 years ago. And he spoke Japanese, so that was going to be helpful. And I don't speak any Japanese, but by the time I had landed, he'd gotten quite sick. And so I was alone in Japan. And every once in a while, in a kind of feeling of overwhelm and panic, I would go to the McDonald's. But you don't even eat the McDonald's in the other countries. So for me, it's occasionally like a respite to be abroad and be like, you know what, I need to go into, I just need

10 minutes to be inside of the comfort and warm blanket of the McDonald's, including eating it. But for you, it's more just sort of observing it, almost like a, like David Attenborough on the Serengette as opposed to sort of consuming the McDonald's. In Tokyo, I observe it, and then I go to Hureisha Nasbaga, Freshness Burger. And that's how it's pronounced, Horesha Nasbaga, or a Mossburger. And they're great. They're Japanese chains, and they're great. So you seem to be a little bit annoyed by the language of the left these days.

And you acknowledge that part of this is that you're getting older and everything is starting to annoy you more and more, which I appreciate, though. I feel like maybe you've always had a little bit of, like, there's, you've, You've always had a kind of, I don't know, persnickety old man inside of you, and maybe now it's coming out. But you do have an essay of the book about punching down. Is there anyone beneath you that you'd like to take a shot at right now? Is there anyone you'd like to punch down? That essay came from when I first moved to New York City, I didn't know anybody. And so there was a class at the Y called Writing Funny.

And it was taught by this woman named Frida Garmase, who used to be a Saturday commentator on all things considered. And really funny, this British woman. And I thought, oh, gosh, there's not going to be any places left in the class because she's teaching. And so I signed up for this class, and I was the only one who knew who she was. And the first day, she said, what are the rules for comedy writing? And I said, you should never make fun of anyone who has less power than you. And she said, where on earth did you get that idea from? She said, no, the only rule of comedy writing is that you should be as tasteless as possible.

And so I've stuck by that ever since she told me. I thought that's a good rule. But who are we punching down at? Who are you punching down out these days? Who's annoying you? Oh, you know, no. Like I had something on CBS Sunday morning, right, not long ago. And I was in Minneapolis airport.

And I went for lunch. And it was this place where you had to seat yourself, order yourself. order yourself on the screen, pay, enter all your credit card information, and then it asked how much you wanted to tip. And I thought, I've done everything here. What would I be tipping? And then I saw this woman come and set food in front of somebody. And I wrote, then I saw that she was an immigrant. And I thought how my parents, or my grandparents were immigrants, right? And then it went on from there. and the Board of Race and Culture at CBS said I was using my privilege to punch down and call someone an immigrant. And I said, and then they gave me an opportunity to defend myself.

And I said, immigrant is like a pharmacist. That's the word for it. You know, I'm an immigrant in the United Kingdom. I didn't say filthy immigrant. I didn't say, I just said immigrant. And how did I know she was an immigrant? Oh, I don't know. I mean, she was Ethiopian, you know, and she had an accent.

So I figured she must have immigrated to, but I wasn't criticizing her in any way. And there's nothing wrong with the word immigrant, you know, and it sat on the shelf there for a year and a half before they aired it. and so to me that's I don't I didn't understand even the charge like that's not punching down on anybody I just didn't I anyway I was just completely mystified by that and I feel like that that happens quite often with with writing lately you know like another circumstance like we flagged this because you use the word nanny And it's like, yeah, I know people who are nannies and they identify as nannies. And I'm not criticize. I'm not making fun of anyone.

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When you had to smalls.com slash crooked. It's clearly what you're getting at, right? Like, there's, you know, that there are people that will say, like, you know, it may be the case that one reason Trump is president is people find the left annoying. And people will say that's glib. And they'll say we have a lot bigger problems in the world than people being worried about words we use, right? And that this is focusing on the wrong thing.

And the right is hyping this all up. At the same time, though, there does seem to be something where, You know, you have a story in the book about what happened when you got bit by a dog. And you felt like the audience wasn't on your side because of who owned the dog. And what you say in the essay is that people are worried that they will be perceived as not being empathetic enough. They'll be worried that they'll be perceived as being kind of Republican. Do you just talk about that and what happened there? I was bitten by a dog.

And I was in Portland, Oregon. And there were these three people smoking fentanyl. And they had two dogs, and I was walking down the street, and both the dogs rushed forward, and one of them bit me. And when I told people about it, I had a show that night, and I talked about it. And a woman said, well, you know, people with an opioid abuse disorder lead incredibly difficult lives, you know. And they're in no position to take care of their animals. That's the sad part. And I'm like, is it?

Is that the sad part? And then other people were like, what kind of a dog was it? But everybody acted. If I had said this tech bro had this dog that bit me, they'd be like, oh, those people, I've had it up to here with those people. But because they were smoking fentanyl, people felt like if they said like, oh, that's awful, then they were being, then people might mistake them for a Republican. But since when did allowing dogs to bite people become a Democrat point of principle? I just don't understand that. Well, it's, and it's the kind of thing.

And the reason I think is like this gets at something because it's, of course, not a democratic point of principle. And I am sure there's a subset of people who genuinely feel when you tell that story, like, oh, this is not the issue. You're punching down. or you're not being respectful enough of the challenges, et cetera. But I would think most people would say, well, that's terrible. And we have a real problem here. And that shouldn't have happened. And we need to address the ways in which people don't feel safe on the streets, whatever.

And I sometimes feel – but I do think a lot of people are afraid to say – they're afraid to voice like, you know, right now in Los Angeles, about to have a mayor's race, right? And a lot of what the issue is around how LA has a big unhoused, homeless population. And at the same time, there's a lot of people that will get angry at a Democratic politician for being, say, too aggressive at trying to clear homeless encampments, right? When I bet if you polled people, even Democrats, it would be a 70, 30, 80, 20 issue, but a loud vocal group of people online are there to tell you that you're being a fascist. and I wonder how many of the people telling you, people being afraid to tell you that they think it's terrible

that that dog bit you are not saying what they really feel. They're afraid of some sort of like online mob or something. You need to get bitten by a dog. I mean, it's shocking because like I told a guy in my New York building, I got bitten by dog. What did you do? And then other people say, I'm on your side.

Am I coming across as being on your side? I'm saying you would be amazed if you get bitten by a dog at how people react. What kind of a dog was it? Like people, I was shocked. Nobody said, nobody said, oh, that's awful. You've bitten by a dog. Well, like two people did.

But if you talk to 15 people, two of them would say, oh, that's awful. Was it like a stitches situation? How bad of a, how deep did this wound go? It broke the skin. Broke the skin. I went to the pharmacy and she told me to go to the emergency room. And then I just thought that the people whose dog it was, they were just going to carry on with their day. And I was like, and then I'm going to spend all day in the emergency room.

I decided I would rather die than do that, that I would literally rather die than go to the emergency room. Another, I got a lot of letters about people who've been bitten by dogs. Like this one woman, she was sitting on the sofa at a friend's house. And she got up and the dog bit the back of her neck. and the owner had to come and pry its jaws open and said, I told you not to make any sudden movements. You scared him. Like, it's a dog thing and it's a drug addict's dog thing.

It's both. And then I got a lot of letters from people, and this woman was walking after dark, and a man was following her close behind her, and she stopped and turned around. and said, can I help you? And he said, I'm homeless. I want money.

And she said, I don't have any money on me. And she kept walking, and he kept following her. And she turned around and said, look, this is making me really uncomfortable. And he said, I also take cash app. And she said, I don't have cash app. And when she told people about it, they all said, you don't have cash app? As if that was the point of the story, right? where again, if she had said

if she had said it was a fraternity brother following her, that's outrageous to be following somebody after dark. But instead, they acted like the whole point in the story was that she didn't have cash app. It is my job to notice things like this. No, no, I'm glad you. Well, it's, the thing about it, I'm interested in this in part because,

you know, whatever people, people's morals around this are, and there'll be people that'll say, like, oh, you know, David Siddharis, David Siddharis becoming an old, he's becoming an old conservative. He's getting, you know, conservative in his old age. But if a political movement is not honest about how people actually feel, it's doomed to fail, right? Like, we have, like, how do people like Spencer Pratt in L.A. or Donald Trump get purchased? Well, they get purchased because if you tell a bunch of people that, that they're wrong to feel a certain way and that the Democrats don't have a good answer for their legitimate frustrations, then they'll go to people with bad answers. And so I do think sometimes

like it's like acknowledging that, hey, like there's something where we're not, we're being a little bit disrespectful for how people feel when they say get bitten by a dog or or feel like things in their community don't feel safe. Now it is pride. Happy pride. Are you a pride guy? You go to the parades? Not a pride guy. Not a pride guy. That's surprising to me. I'm not a parade person.

Right. It would strike me as a parade person. You're a walker, though. You could walk a parade. That's a nice way to get in your steps, no? No, it's too slow. Too slow. I mean, I went to that, I went to a march.

What was that the, in New York, the no kings thing. But you're walking like a, you know, you're walking like a third of a mile per hour. So it's not the place to get steps in. Is there anything gay you've done for pride to celebrate pride? What's the gayest thing you think you've done this month? The gayest thing I've done this month, my luggage got lost. And so I had to go to the airport United desk in Denver, Colorado. And the guy said, if we open your suitcase, we find your suitcase and we open it,

what is in there that will know what's yours. And I said, it's a Burberry dop kit. I said plaid, but it's not their iconic plaid. That was the gay that's like that I've done in years. What are you doing with a Burberry dock kit? Why do you need a Burberry brand dop kit? You know what? It is so.

It is so pretty. Oh, it's so pretty. Oh, my gosh. It's so pretty. Because it doesn't. I don't really like their signature plaid. No, it's too branded. It's too branded.

It's just so pretty. And I saw it in the window of the store in London. And then I went in and I said, oh, I'd love that dop kit in the window. And they said, what? And then I said, okay, shaving kit in the window. And they said, that's not a shaving kit. That's just to carry things around in. But it's a shaving kit.

I mean, you know, it has a handle on the side. It's waterproof on the inside. It's a shaving kit. Anyway, and I love it. And I, you know what? If I lost it, that was when I thought about it. about if I never got my luggage back. That's what I thought.

I thought my shaving kit. Do you remember when a Biden administration official who is non-binary was stealing luggage and then putting on the dresses they found inside of the luggage and then taking photographs of themselves in public places with the stolen clothes? We should read that story. It was pretty exciting.

The first non-binary Biden administration executive was stealing suitcases and then wearing the clothes from inside of the suitcases. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. Speaking of, now you struggle with the word queer and how the language around being gay has evolved.

Have you heard from people on the road about this that call themselves queer from sort of Gen Z that use different terms? Like, where are you at now? You got some backlash for what you said. I love asking people about it. I love it. And I find that generally it's a generational thing, right? Like a lot of times when I meet young women, I say, where do you stand on the word lesbian? And a lot of them are just so insulted, I even use that word.

They reject the word lesbian, and they don't want to be put in a box. And I said, well, I'm still putting you in a box, but this one has an irritating person written on the side of it, you know. And I find my problem with the word queer, I have two problems, right? Okay. One, it doesn't tell me anything, right? And two, it's the third time in my life I've been rebranded. And it just, it'll happen to you too when you get older. Like, people keep changing your name and nobody ever asks you.

No one ever asks your opinion. It's like, oh, you're this now. And then when people come up to me and say, oh, you're a queer writer. And it's like, no. I'm, no. I don't. And again, it doesn't have anything. to do with the word formerly being an insult. I appreciate that it's short, you know, but that's all

that I really appreciate about it. But I love asking people about it. And usually the people, you know, younger people, they like having their own word. You know, this is a young word, and so they feel like it reflects them. But I feel, I guess I don't know, you know, a woman, came up to me and said, oh, you're a queer writer. She said, my daughter is queer. My 12-year-old daughter is queer. And I said, how? And she said, she's asexual. I said, isn't that what you want in a 12-year-old?

You know? I mean, maybe she's just 12. Yeah. Well, that's in this sort of edge case. Well, I remember when I was a speechwriter, and I struggled with this because I, you know, when I was growing up there was gay and there was straight and we all kind of bisexual was a joke right if a girl was bisexual uh she was really straight if a guy was bisexual he was really gay and we didn't really talk about trans we didn't know about we didn't talk about non-binary gender wasn't really as

much a part of it and when i became a speechwriter i remember watching as we would say like you know we're proud to celebrate gay rights and then it was well you can't just say gay rights you have to say there's also trans people, and then we started including in speeches, LGBT. And I remember as a writer feeling offended by LGBT because it felt so mechanical. It felt so it felt like it was from a manual about gay rights. It felt technical as opposed to, you know, we're so proud to have achieved so much for gays and lesbians or the gay community saying LGBT felt just, lyric just felt it had a bad sound right um and that to me so then then you go to queer and that's meant to be a catch-all but i had the same feeling that i think you have like wait this word doesn't

feel exactly right but i wonder how much of like what is it about the word that doesn't feel that it's not just that it was a slur right there's something where it like it it doesn't feel like it captures who I am and I wouldn't use it, but it is a useful word to have a catch-all. And I'm wondering if you've thought about like, what is that feeling, that kind of, because if it was just that it wasn't, you have a bad feeling about the word. It's not just that it's not as good as gay. There's like, you don't want it. So why?

Well, again, part of it too is that I just feel that it's unspecific. It doesn't tell me. Often when I think of queer, I think of somebody who is in a heterosexual, relationship, but is open to the idea of a three-way and has a septum ring. And so, and that's a, that's a thing, right? And so if that's your identity, you can be, that's, you're queer. Have it. Please. And I'll call you queer and everything. But I'm not, I'm not queer. So I'm gay. And you can be queer and, and that's fine. But I don't, when the word queer is used on me, well-meaning people who think, well, that's the word now, that's a word they like us to use,

you know, that person. I cringe, you know, and I don't. But again, when you said something earlier as a writer, okay, I mean, as a writer, yeah, language is what I deal, it was what I, the tools that I work with. So when people say it's just a language thing, well, yeah, it's what I'm working with. Right? Like the New Yorker, like I can't say prostitute and the New Yorker. I have to say sex worker. To me, a sex worker, like if you lost both your arms in an accident, a sex worker would come to your house and teach you how to pleasure yourself by rubbing against a doorframe. That's a sex worker, right? For sure, yeah, yeah. But then there's a prostitute, you know. So I will never write about a prostitute in the New Yorker because I don't want to use the word sex worker. I don't like the word. you know, and the same way, if I was in a situation and they said, well, you have to use the word queer,

I would say, okay, well, I won't write anything for you, or I won't write about that. If I know I have to use that word, I don't want the word, I don't want to use it. I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like, I don't want to see it on paper. You know, I don't want to type it. So, and that's, I don't know that has, I don't know if that's an old thing, you know, just from being old or I mean, there are, it's not like I, any new word I don't want anything to do with. I mean, sometimes, well, there are a lot of them that don't want anything to do with.

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that uses words like queer and sex worker, right? That if you're describing a sex worker, it is a kind of, there's a kind of performative obtuseness and kind of a performative progressivism that feels artificial. And so am I rebelling against that artificiality, not because the word itself, but because I don't like the way other people use it and the kind of writing and thinking it's associated with. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A sex worker took one college course, okay, is a prostitute who took one course in college.

Like, I think if you went to the streets and you, and someone was offering blow jobs, and you say, what do you line to be called? I think, I don't know how many people would say sex worker. Yeah. Sort of like how I would never make an ill. Maybe the thing to do would be to say to them, what would you like to be addressing? What would you like to be called? Yeah. Well, because we went through a round of this when people were saying kind of Latinx.

Yeah. And it turned out, you know, that that's sort of a sort of an artificially produced sort of activism-based word that wasn't really used outside of those spaces. And then kind of went through a cycle of how people were using that word. and then eventually we're not using that word anymore. And so, okay, great. We're back to Latino, Latina. Well, I think about it sort of for me, right? Because I identify, I'm gay.

But at the same time, I became comfortable with that at a time when I didn't have another option. Right. And I'm now 43. I am married to a trans person. I choose to call myself gay, even though truthfully, I am the word queer probably more appropriately defines what I am, but I choose to be gay because I think being gay is a choice. Nobody's going to take that away for me. Well, I, like when I was, I remember the word gay coming into use, right?

The term was homosexual. And so I remember the term gay. And maybe because I was 18 years old, I thought, great, because it fit, you know. And so maybe there were people who felt like. gay was unspecific or you know they just didn't like the sound of it I mean homosexual I'm fine with it's just longer

you know like for some reason we just keep making words longer um so again anything one syllable but an LGBTQ and then it became QQIA and then it was a plus was added and I agree it was a lot

well this is where it's like it's about persuasion too which is like, hey, like, if nobody who's not paying very close attention is going to master LGBTQ2IA Plus, like it's stupid. It's just like at some point, we're allowed to have sort of aesthetic judgments. Like, I'm sorry, but that's stupid. It is stupid to go around saying so many letters in a row and to keep adding new letters to it. It's just aesthetically unpleasing. We're allowed to have taste, right?

Too high. You couldn't blame people for making fun of LGBTQQIA plus. No, it's funny. It's funny. Yeah. Now, you've also been advocating for wearing skirts, people about how comfortable skirts are. We are both people that have worn skirts at our live show and have become proponents of skirts. What do you think men are afraid of with these skirts?

You know, I don't want to be stared at, and I don't want to be a woman, and I don't want to have breasts, and I don't want to have breasts, and I don't want to wear. makeup. But a skirt just looks good. I don't know, half the world wears skirts and they don't make any big deal about it. I mean, I went to Fiji and, you know, all the guys are wearing skirts and you go, gee, I mean, again, you go to the Middle East and you see people and basically dresses. I remember I went to Morocco when I was in high school with my Spanish class and I bought, I don't know what it's called, but it's like a floor-length robe, you know. And I wore it to high school when I got back. And I remember thinking, I look good and just being made fun of, like, so roundly. And I just remember thinking, like, why is it a big deal? Like, why? It's got one hole instead

of two, really? And you're going to get that upset about it. But, yeah, I have a bunch of skirts, and I'm happy to, you know, I don't have mini skirts and stuff. I have, you know, usually they go, you know, to the floor or, you know, almost to the floor. And I just, I just think they look great. I do think that when, you know, conservatives get upset about trans people, on some level, what they're upset about is the ways in which they're holding on to these sort of traditional definitions of like the right way to be a man and how small a definition they want for that. And I think as someone that has been publicly gay since you were writing so long ago,

like you never really came out. You're just gay from the first moment I've heard of you. You were gay the whole time. You never came out. You never had your moment of going on television being like, I'm gay. But at the same time, I was lucky enough to come around at a time. I can write about my relationship and people just, it's about trying to make a life with another person, right? That the world could see that.

The world wasn't like, oh, it's gay, never mind, it's not for me because he's gay. And that was, you know, if I'd done it 10 years earlier, then that would have been completely different stories. So I was just fortunate to come along, you know, that so much had happened before. I got, I arrived, I suppose. But the reason I bring it up is because it does seem like what's happening now. So being gay as a sort of an abstract identity, right? Like I'm a gay person. That means I date and want to marry someone of the same gender, whatever.

It seems like the part that we're now grappling with is everything around it, like wanting to wear skirts, being more feminine, right? And defying other aspects of what it means to be a true, like sort of masculine man. And I know as I think about what when I was made fun of when I was a kid, right? Like I was called gay a million times. I was a little bit of feminine. But it was it was becoming okay to be gay. But it wasn't okay to be a mincing little queen.

Right. And it does seem like right now there's a real kind of pushback from the right about defying the gender norms. Like they're okay with a Scott Bessent being the second. of the Treasury, but they worry a lot about what happens if, say, if a man shows up and makeup and a skirt. And I wonder how you think about that as somebody that has, like, sort of been publicly identified as gay for so long. Well, I mean, I feel, I remember when I was young and, like, I moved, I lived in San Francisco

for one summer, right? And I remember it was like a pride parade there in San Francisco. And it must have been. It was like summer of 1976 or something, right? But I remember there were drag queens at the beginning of the parade. And I remember being embarrassed, you know, and thinking, oh, I don't want people to think that that's what gay people are like, right? And now I just, now I think the opposite. it. When I see somebody being like a massive, like, sissy or something, it just warms my heart,

you know, and I'm just so happy that they just be in themselves. And I can see how, you know, it can make someone uncomfortable because you're not sure, you know, like when I'm signing books, like you don't know sometimes, you know, how you maybe should address somebody or if somebody gives you a book and then it's got, well, especially like a name, like, a name, like you. like Zia on it, you know, and then is that Zia? Is Zia somebody else? You know, so I always say, who's Zia? And then sometimes people look, I am. And I say, well, I'm asking because it could be your cousin. It could be, you know, it could be anyone. So I have a nice out that way that you don't necessarily have in day-to-day life. But I think it just makes people uncomfortable.

Like, if I'm wearing a skirt, I don't see any reason for anyone to call me ma'am. where she, it's just a skirt. I don't have any makeup on. I have a sport coat on. And, you know, I guess I don't care if they're uncomfortable. I suppose that's a difference. Right. But I do think part, like, I'm interested in, like, what is that discomfort, right?

Like, you'll turn on Fox News and there'll be somebody saying, like, you know, real men don't sing happy birthday. Real men don't drink soup. Real men don't have straws, right? Like, constraining, constraining what it means to be a man to this really, really narrow box. I wonder how much of that discomfort people feel is in the same way someone understands that voting for Trump might be wrong in some way that like they're like I spent a long time building this prison. Like how dare you how dare you try to escape? Like this is where I live.

I feel safe here. Well, in a lot of ways and I think a lot of people would be surprised by that, but I feel sorry for straight guys. You know, I feel sorry that they're in their prison. And I feel that sometimes I feel like they don't know how to talk to people. You know, like if you're listening in conversation on a plane and there are two guys in front of you who, you know, strangers who are talking. I just, I just feel bad. I feel bad that they don't, again, that their confines are so narrow. Yeah, I have this, I remember realizing that I was a, that I was a worst friend to my straight friend.

my straight male friends because I was less effeminate. And what came with being effeminate was being thoughtful, you know, like asking people about their debt. You know, like there's a way you are with, with, with, there's a way gay men are that is more feminine. And part of it is just being, I don't know, thoughtful, considerate, sweet. Right. And I was, and I remember realizing like, oh,

when I'm with my straight male friends, I act more like them. and I'm much worse in basically every respect, right? Like, I would never think to be like, be like, if I'm in my, if I'm kind of in that straight mode, you're kind of like, you would never be like, so how's your mother doing? Like, you know, is she getting better from her fall? Like, you wouldn't say anything like that.

It just doesn't come up in straight world. I was in an elevator, and I was in Atlanta a few weeks ago, and I'm going down for breakfast, and this guy gets on the elevator. And I said, oh, I saw you on my plane last night. I said, I noticed your shoes, you know? And that's such a thing that would be so scary, like to a straight guy, that you, A, he remembered them, and B, that you were looking at his shoes, you know.

What was the reaction? How did it go? Well, he was wearing shoes without a back to them. So, of course, he was gay. Oh, right. So it all worked out. Yeah, there's sort of that. Sorry, I just ended up for making sure you're talking to another gay man. Positive America is brought to you by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking built for you. They're not like traditional. old banks that charge you overdrafted monthly fees. They have thousands of fee-free ATMs because why pay to get your own money?

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For more information on APY rates, my pay, spot me, and travel perks. Go to chime.com slash disclosures. You referred to Hugh as your boyfriend. He's your husband. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Uh-huh.

Still uncomfortable. I don't like the word. I, I, I, yeah. He's a man I'm married. Right. What? What's the problem? He's your husband.

I don't like the word. But you got married. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just for financial reasons. Right. It was a shotgun wedding arranged by my banker. Mm-hmm.

And I don't want to marry anybody else, you know. It didn't mean anything to be married. I didn't. choke up. I didn't, I don't, it was, it was just a legal thing to me. I just got married. Any advice for a long and successful relationship? Yeah, I do. Hugh and I have been together for 36 years. Never talk about your relationship to that other person. Ever. Never talk about it. Never talk about it because that just, it doesn't bear the harsh light of scrutiny. You can talk about it with other people.

Right. You can complain about them. But don't talk about it with that person. Right. It's sort of like talking about happiness. If you're talking about it, you aren't it. Don't talk about your relationship. That's pretty good.

Now, I noticed something else in one of these essays. You also are deeply uncomfortable talking about your bowel movements in front of you. Oh, my God. No, I've never had one and he's never had one. What is that? What is what? I don't know what you're talking about. But so what is it about feminine mystique?

I don't know what you're talking about. So I like, I definitely feel like there's two kinds of relationships and I don't think there's a middle ground. There are couples for whom the bathroom is just a room with a sink and a shower. Yeah. And that's it. And then there are couples that are just fully in it about every detail. I'm in that category.

We talk about everything. We go into great detail and it brings us closer together. Don't you want to what your leave. I like how do you know a person? A big part of every day, David, is the part of the day where you had either a good shit or a bad shit. It's a big right. Come on. You know.

I have no idea what you're talking about. So you come home from a long trip and Hugh is in a bad mood. He's just a bit upset and you don't know why. It might be because he's having stomach trouble. But you'll just never know that. You'll never know that he's been, oh, I was sorry. He's never know that about me. But then you're strangers to me.

No, there's plenty of other stuff we know. It's nice to have a little window of mystery. You know, like I know people, couples who like fart in front of each other and do things. No. You're not farting in front of each other? What are you getting up and going to the room? That has never happened. Come on.

What are you talking about? If somebody has an accident every now and then, it's never acknowledged, never mentioned. Never, ever, ever, ever. And you know what? I'm really glad because both of us are like that. So if just one person was like that, then it would be pretty hard. Well, I don't think those people make it. I don't think, I think that's what divorces.

I think it's people finding out that they're with the wrong person because they want to talk about it and the other person doesn't. It's like, you can't build the life with someone like that. Yeah, no. Hugh and I, nope, never been discussed. I don't know what it would be. Now, if, if, like, if I get colon cancer, rectal cancer, he will never know. I will go. See, I will say, I have to go to the hospital for a few weeks.

I will say. Why even tell him that? Just I'm going, I have a little trip I need to take. So, well, you know, you get it. You went right to the right. You went, your mind went to correct. I know where your mind went, which is to the fact that you have an aging body, as we all do. And you're in one of the stories, you basically are repulsed by the fact that he needs for a time after a hip surgery to have one of those cushy higher toilet seats, which you compare to a coffin.

You both have human bodies that will slowly fail over time. And the best case scenario is that you're holding someone's hand. as they lose control of their body, but you're together in the end. Like, there's no avoiding the fact that you have a corpus and it will decay before each other, right? Isn't that the goal? Yeah, but I don't see the need to put him on the toilet now to prepare for putting him on the toilet 20 years from now. 20 years from now, if I have to do it, I'll do it. But I doubt that.

But now all of a sudden, at the very end of your relationship, we're going to finally have to talk about this thing that you've been avoiding your whole life. We'll never talk about it. You'll never talk about it. I will never talk about it. Never. If Hugh's like in his 90s and he soils himself, we will never talk about it. Ever, ever, ever talk about it. Are you thinking about what these, look, your document, you know, you've been writing in your diary, did you write in your diary today yet?

Yeah. You've been writing in your diary every day. Do you think about what those last entries are going to be like? I think it's easier to conceive of our data. death than it is of our decrepitude, you know, and the thought of being in an assisted living center in one room, your life reduced to one room like my dad's was, and all your friends are dead, and you're defecating in your pants maybe, or you're unable to get up from your bed. I being dead I can think sure yeah but that is just to know that that's coming or to think so Hugh and I

we were going to throw ourselves off the terrace you know of our apartment building but then he didn't want to make a mess and so we're going to put ourselves in body bags first and then throw ourselves off that is considerate that is considerate you know you got to I would say double wrap it because who knows what kind of splat that you know you're going to make a lot of And then boom, you're coming out the sides. I spent 10 days at the medical examiner's office in Phoenix. So I know what it looks like. And I know that's why you're right.

Double body bags is a really good idea. All right. So something good came out of this conversation. Well, here's the thing I would say, too. But isn't a part of you like ready? Like you will have an interesting perspective on what it's like to slowly decline in one room as all your friends die. Isn't that the final, aren't those the stories we need you to write because it'll be helpful to other people that are going through it? Isn't there something beautiful about getting, getting that last experience, which is so common for people?

Yeah, I think the thing is, so Calvin Tompkins died recently, the art critic for the New Yorker. And he was, was he, was he, but the thing too is that his eyes were really failing him at the end. so you could be in a situation where you couldn't write. You know, when you're really sick, you can't sit up. You know, like if you were, so you'd, it's a nice idea that you could write until the day you die, but you have no control over it, you know, so maybe if, gee, if Hugh's mother, right, huge reader. I've never known anyone who reads more than her. and now she can't read and she's 95 and she's just sort of parked in front of a TV her worst nightmare

and she can't read a book and even if you gave her an audio book she can't focus on anything so again I don't I don't necessarily have control I'd like to be able to write until the end of my life even and I don't mean that to write in order to put a book out but just just, you know, I've done it every single day of my life for the last 50 years, so I don't know who I would be without it, regardless of it being published or not. I just don't know how I would, how I would know who I am, I suppose. So I said maybe it's the kind of thing where you wait for the kind of double-wrapped phase. you can age into decrepitude, but then when you finally can't write, then you do the double backing, right?

Maybe sort of let's just sort of hold off. Let's put a pin in the double bagging until we made a little. But I think it's unfair, and I think it's unfair that you can't, you know, your insurance policy, your life insurance won't pay off if you've killed yourself. I don't, I mean, I understand the problems with changing that, but I just don't think it's fair to expect people to put up with that amount of misery and, and, uh, You know, like if you're defecating in your pants and somebody's clean you up and then you're just like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And you're not even having good time. You know, like the rest of your days, not going to be any better than that. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to kill yourself.

I have this idea for Canyon Day. And it's you put logs. you put logs around the Grand Canyon, right, just along the lip of the Grand Canyon, and you take people there at night. And then, so if they trip over a log and fall into the Grand Canyon, that's just the way it goes. So it's like a little loophole you can't. Where it's, it's called like, so to get the insurance to pay out, that it's just a lot of people tripping on the Grand Canyon.

Yeah, it would be called Canyon Day. And then if you wanted to participate. Payton Canyon Day, you would be allowed to. Well, I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure the insurance companies are going to catch wise to it pretty quickly. Suddenly, hey, we've seen a huge uptake in accidental deaths on the Arizona side of the Grand Canyon. But, hey, it's a great thought. You know, I shared it with somebody and they said, what if you don't die?

Don't you hate people like that? Never. I mean, it's a pretty long fall. I know it. There's no way you're, plus, you're going to be decrepit to begin with. Like, why are you even saying that? What if you don't die? You're going to die.

You're going to die. That's not the problem with the... Listen, I want you to know something. There's a lot of problems with that plan, all right? That's not one of them. It's a big fall down there. It's a big canyon. It's Grant.

That's why they named the burger after it. Before we let you go, I want to get just to rapid fire a few things, see where your head's at. People saying no problem instead of your welcome. That doesn't bother me. Really? Yeah. But you don't like perfect when people say perfect. Oh, I hate perfect.

Perfect. I was at a hotel the other day, and the woman said perfect five times before I even sat down at the table. And they're told in hotels, like if you say wonderful or terrific, that's not positive enough. See, you have to say perfect. But no problem. I know people who are bothered by no problem. It doesn't. I know people too who are bothered by, of course.

Could I have another coffee? Of course. And there are people who don't like, of course. I have no problem with it. Okay. Emojis. I used one one time. Just an eggplant?

No, it was a huge sister, and I don't remember what it was. I don't like to text. Okay. College professors are signing fewer books and more excerpts because their students have lower attention spans. Gosh, that makes me sad, you know. But that said, if I were in college and then I had to read Moby Dick by tomorrow, I'd be like, fuck, I got to read Moby Dick by tomorrow. You can skip the whaling chapters. That's the key thing with the reading Moby Dick.

People need to know that. There's a lot of whaling chapters in there with detailed information about the technique. You don't need those chapters. Well, I wrote something one time about, I was writing for Esquire and they did an issue what every man should do before the age of whatever. And so I said, read Moby Dick. So I started reading it and I was like, oh no, this is really boring. It's so boring. So I told myself, I could not shave, brush my teeth, take a shower, or wash my hair until I finished it.

And then on the second day, I helped the neighbor clean out her chicken coop. And so, you know, I had those mites all over me. But I couldn't take a shower. I couldn't do anything. I had to read Moby Dick first. There's a audiobook version of Moby Dick read by Burt Rennel. It seems like he was done. He had to do it at gunpoint or something. Really? He reads it?

It's atrocious. I highly recommend go find it. He does a sailor's accent, but he can't maintain it. So it like, you hit play on this thing, and it's Bert Reynolds being like, call me Ishmael. But by the end of every chapter, he's kind of back into classic Bert Reynolds. And then the next chapter begins, and it's back with, ah, the whale was out there. You know, he does a voice. It's crazy. It's crazy. And he doesn't do any of the whaling chapters. So you can just, it's a breeze. That's great.

He's writing it down. That's good. That's it. We got a lot of good ideas out of this session. Really happy about that. Last thing. Do you hold grudges? Yeah, I do.

Yeah, I do. I don't necessarily act on them. But my brother said a couple weeks ago, I saw my brother. And we were talking about cleaning. And he said, man, you got to be, you know, I got to be mad to clean. And whenever I start cleaning, I go back to, to my grudge drawer and I pull something out. And it just fuels me when I clean. It's like feeding the steam engine while I clean. And then I finish and I'm fine. What's your oldest grudge

right now? Mrs. Arseneu, 1968, ice cream creations. After a christening, we went to ice cream creations, people from the church, Reg Orthodox Church in Rale, North Carolina. And I was sitting there with my mom, having a lovely time. And Mrs. Arseneu came and said, you go over there, sit with the boys. No 12-year-old boy should be sitting with his mother. And I was having such a nice time with my mother. And I thought, what business is it of yours where I sit? Do you know what I mean? Like my mother wasn't complaining about having me there. And my, you know, my mother's dead. And I think she robbed me. Mrs. Arseneu robbed me of like an extra half hour with my mother. And no one back there said, bitch, they're telling me where to sit. Like nobody would have done.

You just did what she said. I just did what she said, and I think about it, I've held a grudge since then. And she's long dead, you know. Yeah, for sure. But I, yeah, that's probably my oldest grudge. And see, now the kids would talk back, something that you find repulsive because the kids aren't listening to their parents anymore, but that was a case where had you talked back to your teacher, you might have had more time with your mother.

There was a guy in my high school who, we had a math teacher, and he was, he was, he was also a coach and he was a dick and he was chewing out this student, this female student, and she started crying and he kept at it. And this guy in the class stood up and said, you need to back off to the teacher. And nobody did things like that. And he got in so much trouble, but it was somebody needed to do it, you know. And I'm so proud because he was gay. There's no what, I mean, he wasn't talked about back then, but there's no way this guy wasn't gay. And I thought about it over the years, and I thought, wow, it was a gay person. I mean, it wasn't this gay person, but it was a gay person who, and he wasn't, he didn't threaten the

teacher or anything. He did it in really the perfect way. And I think about that, he's probably forgotten about it, this guy. But gee, it was such a, it was huge to me. I think about it quite often. David Sedaris, thank you so much for being here. Everybody, latest collection of essays, David Sedaris, the land and its people. Thanks for coming by. Good to meet you. Good to talk to you. Oh, you too. Thanks so much. Thank you, David Sederis for joining us. John, Tommy, and I will be back in your feeds on Tuesday morning. And that's it. the Cricket Media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts,

and Ferris Safari with Reed Jirlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroote, Ben Heffcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, Kirill Pellev, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.