Pod Save America - “deja coup.”

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

Democratic leaders agree to a $3.5 trillion economic plan, President Biden delivers an impassioned speech on voting rights that still doesn’t mention the f-word, a new book reveals that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was actively planning to stop Trump’s attempted coup, and Black Voters Matter co-founder LaTosha Brown joins to talk about how activists and organizers plan to win the fight against voter suppression.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, Democratic leaders agree to a $3.5 trillion economic plan. President Biden delivers an impassioned speech on voting rights that still doesn't mention the F-word. A new book reveals that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs was actively planning to stop Trump's attempted coup. And I talked to Black Voters Matter co-founder LaTosha Brown about how she and other grassroots organizers plan to win the fight against voter suppression. about how she and other grassroots organizers plan to win the fight against voter suppression. But first, check out this week's Take Line where Jason and Renee sit down with Dallas Mavericks shooting guard J.J. Redick

and our pal Tommy Alter to talk about the NBA Finals and player empowerment in the media. And don't miss this week's America Dissected where Abdul is joined by actor, comedian, and host Wayne Brady to discuss his journey with mental health and how toxic masculinity changed the course of his career. Check out Take Line and America Dissected wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Dan, the headlines have been a bit dark lately, so I want to start with some rare good news. President Biden and Democratic leaders in Congress have agreed to move a $3.5

trillion economic plan that will reportedly include the following policies. 80% clean electricity by 2030, an expansion of Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare, immigration reform, an extended child tax credit, universal community college, universal preschool, universal paid leave, and hundreds of billions of dollars to make child care, elder care, home care, and housing more affordable. All of this will be paid for by getting rid of tax cuts for the richest Americans and big corporations. Progressives seem thrilled, but I'm sure you're all asking the question that we often scream into the void, what does Joe Manchin think? Well, so far he said he's open to the plan, wants to see more details, wants it to be fully paid for, supports including immigration reform, but is concerned about some of the climate

provisions. Dan, what do you think about how all this came together and where it goes from here? You know, a couple of weeks ago, we talked about how the Democrats handled voting rights. And I think I, in particular, argued that they had played a bad hand very poorly in that situation. In this case, I think they've played their hand brilliantly. To be the place where they are right now, where you have a bipartisan deal that is on track, you have a $3.5 trillion package of jobs and family policies that Democrats have been pushing for for years, a place where Joe Manchin is on board with $3.5 trillion worth of spending, where you have the

progressives in the House like Pramila Jayapal and others who are supportive of this, at least at the top lines. Now, a lot of details to be worked out, a lot of really important decisions from the Senate parliamentarian who we're going to really focus on a lot in the next few months, I guess. But right now, Joe Biden, Senator Schumer, Senator Sanders, and others have put us in a position to do something incredibly transformative for the American economy. I kind of thought that there's no way they would have gone out with this number and said they had an agreement unless they had got assurances from Manchin first. But Manchin apparently said to reporters, no, they didn't really check with me. Now, I don't know if he's dancing around the truth there. Like maybe Schumer sort of floated an estimate to him or something.

I can't imagine that no one checked in with him. I do know that in terms of which moderates were negotiating this number, like it wasn't just Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. Mark Warner, you know, the moderate senator from Virginia, was also very involved in this. I can't imagine that Warner didn't reach out and check with Manchin on this. Yeah, it seems very clear that there had been this discussion from – or some comments from Manchin and others that said they would be open to maybe $2 trillion. Then you had Bernie pushing $6 trillion. So when you laid it at 3.5, that's a specific number, that maybe it wasn't Schumer to Manchin or Sanders to Manchin or Warner to Manchin, but it was someone on their staffs to their staff. Like they knew that he would be okay with this in some way, shape or form,

how that exact telephone tree worked out as sort of irrelevant. But the fact that he walked out, he could have walked out and said, nope, not doing that. And he didn't. Now, as of at least my last peering at the internet, we have not heard from Senator Sinema on this,

who I think is actually a little more unpredictable on this than Manchin, because Manchin has a very clear set of things that he is for when it comes to direct investment in the economy, sort of more populist policies. Sinema's a little bit, I think, harder to read on this situation. So I also imagine they talked to her staff, but I would really like to hear her say the words that this was a number she was okay with before we went too far down this path. I'm not sure if it was a statement from her or from her staff, but I did see somewhere that they said it's not necessarily the number they're concerned about. It's whether it's good for the people of Arizona.

So they're going to look at that. That is that is basically just cut and paste from the Senate press secretary handbook of statements that mean nothing. The translation of that is haven't talked to the boss yet. Can't get her on the phone. I think what's important is now it's been, you know, 24 hours, more than 24 hours since it's come out. No one has drawn any red lines on this, which is good. But we should talk about what the most challenging parts of the plan will be. And they're all different, challenging for a few different reasons. I do think, you know, number

one is this is the plan to include all of the climate provisions. This is basically Joe Biden's entire climate agenda. At least any part of the climate agenda where you need to spend money is going to be in this bill. And, you know, Manchin did have a sort of a weird answer about this yesterday. He said he had some concerns about the climate provisions. And then he said, you cannot be moving towards eliminating fossil fuels, even though he is in favor of more investment in clean energy. Now, I was looking this up. It looks like in the past, Joe Manchin has expressed support for a clean energy standard, but that he's also said, well, it depends on how the clean energy standard is structured. And so everyone knows that is the biggest component of the climate provisions in Joe Biden's climate plan is a clean energy standard that would basically incentivize all

companies to make sure that they reduce emissions by a certain amount by a certain date. And so it's pretty important. The other challenge with the clean energy standard is not just Joe Manchin, but is it something that can pass through the reconciliation process? Will the parliamentarian judge it as something that affects the budget? Or will the parliamentarian do what she did on the minimum wage and say, no, no, it doesn't affect the budget at all? So I think that's probably a big one, right?

Yeah, I think a lot of this is going to be, there's a whole set of things that are, that should make us very nervous about the parliamentarian. The PRO Act is also in this bill. There are questions about whether the parliamentarian will sign off on that. That is a piece of legislation that makes it easier for labor unions to organize a collectively bargain. It's massively important. Joe Manchin is a big supporter of it.

There is questions about, are they really going to put immigration in this bill? Would the parliamentarian actually sign off on immigration? That is an open question. But I think, put the parliamentarian aside, so the two-step process, 50 Democrats for everything in the bill, and then parliamentarian has to be for it. On the 50 Democrat side of that question, I think the bigger issue is going to be about the language within the policies, right? Is Joe Manchin, as he did in the American Rescue Plan, going to water down some of the policies? Are other moderates going to? That is almost certainly going to happen in some way, shape, or form. That probably happens in some of the climate policies, which would be disappointing, but probably pretty predictable. It could happen

with some of the other policies that help working class people. So there's going to be a real language issue. And Manchin just has this habit, as other moderates do, of picking a few places to just prove a point, to cut a cost back or reduce the number of people it helps. And so we should expect that to happen. But I think we have to put this in perspective, that if Biden and the Democrats achieve even most of what they are talking about here, it'll be one of the most transformative pieces of legislation in American history. It will put the accomplishments of this president and this Congress on par with FDR and the New Deal, LBJ and the Great Society.

It will do so much to lift millions of people out of poverty, make the economy more fair, empower workers, change it so that our tax system focuses on work not wealth. It's just a huge, massive deal. And we're not going to get everything we want in that. But even coming close is just to put it in perspective is there going to be some really annoying things that fall out or get changed a little bit. But if you look at it from the whole, it's just, I mean, to do the most trite Biden throwback, it's a big fucking deal, right? It is a big fucking deal. You're right.

That's true even if it ends up being a $2.5 trillion plan. Just to put it in perspective, Barack Obama's American Recovery Act, American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Sorry. Sorry, that's the whole fucking thing. The stimulus bill was almost a trillion. And then the Affordable Care act was about a trillion as well that was two trillion that's basically all we got to spend for for eight years we joe biden already spent two trillion on the american rescue plan now we're talking about another three

and a half trillion it is it is the most like you said it is the most significant government intervention into trying to improve people's lives since the new deal in the great society for sure even if even if joe manchin you know lops off some of it which he is sure to do nothing is going to sell the same american people like government intervention into your life hugely expensive government this is going to be this is this is when i know i'm speaking to an echo chamber uh this is gonna be big government it's coming for you dan well there is there is a problem there's some issues in the house too a moderate d in the house uh told jake sherman at punch bowl quote given red hot inflationary

pressures and our strong desire to keep the house blue our gargantuan 3.5 trillion dollar package with massive new taxes is a non-starter for many of us and i predict it will go down in a blaze of glory really putting the d and moderate d there like come on why are you gonna first of all coward put your name on your statement all right at least joe mansion puts his name on his um do you i didn't foresee i always think about mansion and cinema i didn't foresee any house issues but i guess we only have a three or four vote margin in the House Democrats. So you really do need everyone in the House from AOC to the most conservative Democrat on board with this plan in order for it to pass. We only have a couple of votes to spare. I am just very skeptical that there is something that can get Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema's vote, but cannot get Josh Gottheimer's.

Yeah, that's right. And by Josh Gottheimer, I'm referring Josh Gottheimer, otherwise known as the anonymous Democrat who most likely gave that quote. Look, Josh, don't reach out to me about this. That was Dan that said it. I don't, I know what's coming. Now for the question on everyone's mind, what does all this mean for the BIF, Dan? The bipartisan infrastructure framework.

Because some Republicans are like, oh, $3.5 trillion you're going to spend after we pass the bipartisan infrastructure deal? Fuck you, the deal's going to die. You can tell that's what some Republicans are thinking. Do you think it will still survive this? Within the first 24 hours, the indications have been surprisingly positive.

Yeah. Like Bill Cassidy was like, yeah, no, it's fine. Who's one of the Republicans on part of the gang, one of the gangs. But I still think people are throughout this whole process have been overly optimistic about the BIF and underly optimistic or overly pessimistic about the budget reconciliation bill is you still need 10 Republicans. And you're counting Lindsey Graham in that 10. A man not known for his principles or stalwart ideological framework. This is a man who's – he's always won golf invitation with Trump away from changing his position. But I but I mean, it matter. It does

matter. And I think it's important to understand why. Somebody look at this and say, I mean, yeah, roads and bridges are great, but I care more about childcare, elder care, child tax credit, climate change, but they interact in a really important way. I mean, there is an open question and you see a lot of the congressional reporters say this about if the Biff were to just fucking kill us now. Oh, my God. If the Biff were to fail, said Dan Piper. We got right here for us. That's that's what we've come to here.

So anyway, what you're saying, if it were to fail, I think then what would happen is Democrats would have to take all of the substance of the BIF and put it into the reconciliation package. And that means probably you'd have to cut more stuff out of the reconciliation package because I would imagine that people like Joe Manchin are not going to increase the price from $3.5 trillion to add the substance of the policies in the bipartisan infrastructure. Yeah. So you're taking approximately $600 billion of spending that's currently earmarked for Medicare expansion, child care tax credit, shoring up ACA, all the stuff that we really care a lot about. And you're now going to spend it on roads and bridges and clean water, which is all important and good and creates jobs and is good for the economy. But it's going to come at the cost of the last chance we likely have, at least in this Congress, to put in place significant transformative progressive legislation. And so it does matter. But back to your original point about how the Democrats have played this hand well. So Schumer announced this morning that

they're going to basically have a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure framework next Wednesday that he wants to schedule at least a cloture vote. And he also wants to schedule a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure framework next Wednesday that he wants to schedule at least a cloture vote. And he also wants to schedule a vote on the budget. And I think by linking these two together, what it does is incentivizes all of the Democrats in the House and the Senate to be on the same page. Right. Like everyone, everyone who complained about the bipartisan infrastructure deal, some progressives, you want that to pass so that you don't have to put that $600 billion into your reconciliation plan, right? So that you have more money to spend on all the things that you want to spend it on. So like, I think everyone is aligned now in the Democratic caucus on wanting both the bipartisan infrastructure deal to succeed and wanting the reconciliation

package to succeed, which we're just all going to call Joe Biden's economic plan. I was thinking about like the branding conversation we had last week. I'm like, you know, one of my first memories in politics in like the early 90s was Bill Clinton trying to pass his economic plan. No one had a fancy name for that. No one had a message for that. They just called it Bill Clinton's economic plan. And he lost like 40 seats in the following election.

He did, but he passed it. He raised taxes on rich people and it helped the economy a lot. So that was good. Why don't we just call it the American Jobs and Family Plan or the Build Back Better Plan? The Biden folks, I've read the story about this. The Biden folks are going back to Build Back Better. They're calling the whole thing Build Back Better, which fine. Great.

Everyone knows what that means. All right. Let's talk about the politics around all this. Our friends at Change Research and Unite the Country, which is one of the big pro-Biden super PACs, recently conducted six focus groups. We got some focus groups to talk about, Dan. Nice. Tommy listened to our episode last Thursday and said to me, you and Dan talking about new polling is like a couple of kids on Christmas morning. He's like, that's how you sounded, which felt i was really embarrassed by that but i am excited

do you listen to pod save the world you get a un resolution oh well look it's the g20 roads is talking about authoritarianism for six hours a day in a small room by himself so he said that himself on podots of the World this week. Anyway, so we got six focus groups, everyone from black women in Georgia who voted for Biden to non-college white men in Wisconsin who voted for Trump. So it spans the gamut. The only type of voters they mostly excluded are people with strong opinions about either Biden or Trump. These are my kind of focus groups. So these voters are all up for grabs and they heard a few common themes. One, with the exception of the stimulus checks, most people have no idea what's in any of Joe Biden's plans, even the high information Biden voters. Two, other people, especially Trump voters, have been fed a lot of misinformation already about Biden's plans, particularly about the tiny amount of foreign aid in the American Rescue Plan, which I didn't even know existed.

That's like a new misinformation for me. And then three, when people heard from the focus group moderators concrete specific information about Biden's plans, they were overwhelmingly supportive. In fact, when a non-college educated white woman who voted for Trump heard about the child tax credit, she said, quote, that would completely change my life if President Biden could get that done. He did get it done. Today is the day families get their first child tax credit in the mail. President Biden and Vice President Harris just spoke today about it. What did or didn't surprise you in these focus groups? And was there anything else that jumped out at you that I didn't mention there? It honestly hurt my stomach to read this. It is such a memory of working in the White House.

We would have a great period of time. Obama would give a great speech. We'd get a bunch of coverage. There'd be a press conference. Maybe he'd sign a bill. By all the traditional metrics by which a communications operation is judged, we would hit all of our marks, great headlines, local press, national press, surrogates, etc. Then I would go home on a Wednesday night maybe to watch the monthly DNC or Obama campaign focus groups. I'd crack open a beer. Maybe I'd have a pizza. What a party. And just wait.

What a night. Yeah. I mean, we're the Christmas poll people. What a party. And just wait. What a night. Yeah, I mean, we're the Christmas poll people. And you would say, folks, a group moderator would say to this group of assembled Americans, much like the groups in this Change Focus group, and say, what have you heard about

what President Obama's been doing lately? And it's just like blank fucking stares, right? And it's just like, it makes you want to scream because your message is being covered, but people aren't hearing it. And the people that you need to reach most, the ones who are the least engaged in politics are not hearing it. And so what was really hard in 2009 is nearly fucking impossible in 2021. I mean, back in 2009, Facebook was sort of like a place where people post pictures of their dogs as opposed to just a cesspool of white supremacist authoritarian agitprop, right? Radicalizing the left and right.

It was just like – it's really, really fucking hard to get your message out. is that the Biden White House faces it right now to sell this bill, to sell the bill that passed, to sell the bill they're trying to pass, to run in 2022, run 2024. And it is, the thing that I think is really important about this is two things. One, these focus groups are not an indictment of the White House messaging operation. Obviously, everyone can do things better. It's not, I'm not saying it's perfect. It is an indictment of our media ecosystem. And what I think is there's going to be huge, there was a lot of discussion about this when these focus groups reported on Politico that's like, why isn't their message better? Why don't they do this? Why isn't Joe Biden out there anymore? And we confuse constantly in this conversation, message and megaphone. And this right here is not a message problem, it's a

megaphone problem. Now, the challenge with that is it's very difficult, if not impossible, to fix the media ecosystem, particularly in the short term. And you can see this play out just in a small example on Twitter this morning, right? Like, I think the White House has done a really good job pushing everyone, every Democrat out there, every group out there to talk about the child tax credit today right this is a big day on this uh the checks are being delivered to people today right they're seeing them in their bank accounts but tweets about that are no contest between tweets about the child tax credit and tweets about what we're going to talk about in a second which is general millie the

chairman of the joint chiefs like preparing for a coup when Trump was president after the election. Right. Because it's like now I think that's an important story, too. It's dangerous. But like there are just there are certain things that don't garner the same kind of media attention and economic issues and like and policies passing that improve people's lives are one of those issues. And that's been the case for a long time. And I don't know how you change that if you're the Biden administration, except like you said, if you can't get another megaphone to deliver your message, create your own megaphone. And I guess you do that through advertising, paid advertising.

And there's a story the other day about how the political organization that was set up coming out of the Biden campaign has a $10 million ad campaign. The super PAC or nonprofit associated with House Democrats is doing a similar thing. I think to the great credit of the larger progressive political circles these days, they are investing real money in off-year early advertising, but it just goes to show how much you need and how hard it is to do. The other thing is we all have a role to play here. We get to pick what we talk to people about. We get to pick what we tweet about or post about. We talk about this a lot, but every person – you can complain about the media. You can complain about whether the White House has the right message or not, or you can do something about it yourself.

If you have a phone, you have on average a couple hundred contacts between Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, your phone contacts themselves, and you can spread the word. You can share positive things, right? You don't have to just tweet back at Ted Cruz or share the complaint about authoritarianism, although it's fine to do that. But you can also make sure the people in your life get the information that you have and share it with them. You're a force multiplier for the Democratic and White House messaging operation if you choose to do that, and we should all choose to do it. There are a few other things in the focus groups

that I thought are worth mentioning. Voters see the pandemic and the economy improving, but still have a lot of anxiety about the economy, particularly inflation, which a lot of them just mentioned on their own. Race relations, people have a lot of anxiety about, and particularly the political divisions in the country a lot of people brought up. They credit Biden with trying to make all of that better. And even the Trump voters didn't have any love for the Republican Party, describing them as divisive obstructionists who only care about the rich. My favorite line in the whole focus group report was Mitch McConnell is universally recognized and was without a doubt the most loathed political player brought up in

every group. Biden and Trump voters alike believe he is corrupt and called on him to retire. How great is that? That also speaks to like in 2022, it probably would be beneficial for Democrats to have a message that has Mitch McConnell at its center. I think that is the big question. We're going to talk about this a little later when we get to voting rights. But yeah, there we still we don't know the right answer yet. And I don't think the right answer is knowable this early this far out, but there are some choices about how we frame Republicans, right? Are they corporatists or cuckoo, right? Are they authoritarians or assholes? Like there are different ways to do it. This is, you know, we talked about this a little bit when the DCCC was kind of like, was brand ads with Marjorie Taylor Greene. It was the party of Q. And I think some folks on Twitter use QOP now as a way to talk about them. Is that the right way? I don't think that is the right way to do it. But I think that is a bad execution of what is a very viable, legitimate strategy to be discussed,

which is, do you paint them as radical, out of the mainstream people who are unfit to govern? Because that's what they're really arguing for is give us control of one third of government. And so you want to say they are not up to that task because these people are fucking nuts. Or do you make Trump the face of it? And the upside of that is that probably excites a lot of Democrats who were thinking, you know, feel good that Biden's in place or sort of are checking out? Does that help hold some of the those Biden Republicans and Biden independents who might vote Republican down ballot the off year? We talked with those guys the other week. Do you make McConnell the face, which has the event, which may not do as much to excite Democrats, but could actually

disenchant Republicans like that is that is one way in which you could maybe convince some Trump, you know, some real like diehard Magna voter people who only came out in 16 and 20 to stay home. Like, why the fuck would you come out to give this guy power? Right. There, there could be some argument in that. And that's some part of that with, that was actually somewhat relevant in the Georgia special, uh, when McConnell made himself the face of blocking checks for a long period of time. Well, I do think it's interesting that the two themes that kept coming up about Republicans are they're just they're doing anything they can to get Joe Biden to fail. And even the Trump voters are willing to believe that. And they're doing it for their own for their rich friends. Right. Which are, you know, and any message has to be pushing on an open door. Right.

And so I think both of those things, that's not the whole message. And like you said, any of the options that you presented could be a more effective message in the end or just the right message. But it is definitely having those elements in the message seems important no matter what. So let's talk voting rights. There's been quite a few developments on the issue this week. On Monday, more than 50 Democratic lawmakers in Texas blocked the passage of some of the worst voter suppression bills in the country by simply leaving the state. Since Texas law says that two thirds of the 150 member body must be present to hold a vote. The lawmakers traveled to Washington, D.C. to put pressure on Congress and the White House to act on voting rights. And on Tuesday, President Biden delivered a speech on the subject where he argued that Donald Trump's big lie in the current Republican assault on our elections is the biggest threat

to democracy since the Civil War. Here's a clip. In America, if you lose, you accept the results. You follow the Constitution. You try again. You don't call facts fake and then try to bring down the American experiment just because you're unhappy. The 21st century Jim Crow assault is real.

It's unrelenting. And we're going to challenge it vigorously. An assault on democracy. An assault on liberty. An assault on who we are. Who we are as Americans. For make no mistake, bullies and merchants of fear,

peddlers of lies, are threatening the very foundation of our country. I want to start with what's going on in Texas before we talk about Biden. This is the second time Democrats blocked a vote on these bills. They walked off the floor in late May as well. The last time they tried to block a vote by actually leaving the state was in 2003 when Republicans were trying to pass a bill to gerrymander the state. This tactic has never ultimately succeeded. Do you think it can succeed now? It's hard to see how this is sustainable forever. They're just never going to return home. Yeah. But it does it just because the odds of success so long doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do. Right. This is an extraordinary situation and it's an opportunity to shine a light on what is happening there. And that is much greater and gets more attention than simply everyone voting no, right? This is a big deal.

They've been all over TV. They've been on Fox News. They've been on MSNBC. They've been making the case. And I think, I mean, this is how it connects to the Biden speech is this is a huge problem. And it is a problem that even for all of the coverage and discussion it's gotten, the Republican efforts to suppress the vote and subvert elections is the, with the exception of climate change, the single biggest, most alarming thing happening in America right now. And it still is not getting enough attention. People are not alarmed enough about it. So when people take extraordinary actions like this to raise that alarm, it is important. What impact it will have either in Texas or in the Senate is another question.

That does not mean you do not do it. Extraordinary situations need extraordinary actions, and that is what is happening here. Yeah, you'll all soon hear my interview with LaTosha Brown from Black Voters Matter. I interviewed her Wednesday night before she was about to fly to D.C. for a rally today, Thursday, about voting rights. And she said the same thing because I asked her about Texas. And she said that part of her job and part of the job of organizers and activists is to shape and change public opinion. Right. That's it's not just policy outcomes. It's not just getting the bill passed. It's shaping the public opinion that's necessary to win these fights.

And so I think that's really important. Let's talk about Biden's speech. It was impassioned. It was very tough. It raised the stakes and created urgency around the issue of voting rights. But nowhere in the entire speech did he mention the filibuster, which is the primary impediment to passing voting rights legislation, as we all know. Why do you think he didn't mention it? I think there are three reasons that are not necessarily mutually exclusive. One is Biden is still at least somewhat supportive of the idea of the filibuster. Do you think he really is just in his heart of hearts because he's a Senate guy, sort of favorable towards the idea of a filibuster? I think he wants to believe in a world in which the Senate functions in a way that the filibuster plays an important role. I fundamentally disagree with that. I don't believe that world is attainable.

I think he looks at what is happening with the bipartisan infrastructure framework and feels very positive about that. And also, we know that he believes, because he's talked about before, that not necessarily that Trump is an aberration, although he used that language early in his campaign, but that this is a period in which we can get through, that we have to navigate this and that there is a chance to return to normalcy in the long run, to a better functioning. in the long run to a better functioning. So I think he is not ready to be the person leading the charge to take down the filibuster, right? So that's one. And that does not mean that I don't think that he would be supportive of getting rid of it or a carve out or those things, but I don't think he wants to be at the front of the line. Second is, were he to talk about

the filibuster, all of the coverage would have been about the filibuster. It's the inside the DC beltway mindset, which is not even wrong in this case, because that is the most important thing to actually get it done. And that would be the most newsworthy thing as opposed to the president decrying authoritarianism and these voter suppression laws for one more time, right? And the third is, I think, a sense that even if he were against the filibuster, even if he was not concerned about the news coverage, it is not clear that Biden talking about it publicly helps and it may possibly hurt. How might it hurt? Well, senators – like we went through this in 2013 when Senator Reid was working

with his caucus to get 50 Democrats to support getting rid of the filibuster for judicial nominations and presidential appointments. And Obama was already fed up with the filibuster at this point. He wanted that thing to get out of here. It was driving him insane. It had been driving him insane before. But he was counseled by many, many people that separation of powers, senators have a real – they get their back up at the idea that another branch of government telling them how to run their institution. They get upset. Senators get upset when the House tells them what to do,

let alone – they're at least of the same branch. They're in the same paragraph in the Constitution. When the president – theoretically, they are supposed to be a check against presidential power. When the president tells them how to write the rules, right? To create the context to do it. Maybe none of that matters, right? I'm not saying that I even agree with that strategy, but I can see that that may be one of the reasons why that was not mentioned. It also may be that Joe Biden, he has ears and an eyes.

He hears and reads the things that Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema keeps saying. It was like, it's not gonna happen, right? So that that. Right. But then if I can throw them the hot potato, right, don't you know, you shouldn't hold it. Yeah. Right. Like now. I mean, here's look, I always try to put myself in the shoes of the people working in the White House because I deeply believe they are all operating in good faith. I believe Joe Biden when he said it's the greatest threat to our democracy since the Civil War. I was trying to imagine the downsides, the political downsides of saying it's the

greatest threat to democracy since the Civil War. And that's why a arcane rule that's already been changed a dozen times shouldn't stand in the way of protecting the most fundamental right to vote. And that's it. Imagine if he just said that. So he says that you're right. The coverage is about the filibuster. And then what happens? Someone goes to Joe Manchin and says, hey, what do you think about Joe Biden talking about the filibuster? And Joe Manchin said, well, that's great. That's where he is. I'm still where I am. Right. Like you're right that we don't make progress. But like, does anything bad happen to Biden? Do you think that Joe Manchin says, I can't believe Joe Biden fucking said that. I'm blowing up the whole reconciliation package now.

I'm going to change parties because he said that. Like, I don't think change parties, but I think you need this man's vote for every single thing you want to get done. Every judge, this bill, every part of this bill. But he doesn't have to call out, he didn't even have to call out Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema in the speech.

He could have just talked about the filibuster. But anyway, I understand. Yeah, I understand if, I understand why there would be hesitancy in doing something that you believe will have no positive impact and possibly will annoy the one person you need for every single thing you want to do.

But on the other side, think about all the activists and organizers that you would have saying, okay, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are now public enemy number one. Joe Biden is on our side and he's fighting hard. And even if he loses, he's still fighting. That's not bad.

Yeah, if I was choosing between, do I anger? Yes. I feel like I have fallen in this situation. Look, we know that you love the filibuster and always have. And it's good to have someone on this show who can just represent the viewpoint of the pro filibuster. I have that.

This is something that happens to me, has happened to me all the time in two contexts in my life. Working for Barack Obama and being married to my wife or somehow I find myself arguing a point I completely disagree with for reasons I do not understand. Obama would always be like, well, why would, you know, why would someone do this? And I'd be like, this would be the reasons. And he would be like, well, it doesn't make any sense. What about this? I'd be like, no, no, because of this. And then all of a sudden I'm like 30 minutes into a conversation defending the New York Times ed board. I'm like, what the fuck? I hate those people. Like, what is happening? Look, we should have had Ron Klain or Jen Psaki or someone that we know

on the show so we could have them actually make the interview instead of just play acting ourselves. But I'm glad you did it. I appreciate you for doing that. Thank you. You're welcome.

I also think there's one more thing. To go back to the focus groups, they asked people about the filibuster in these focus groups and they wrote in the memo, most voters in our groups, including some trump

voters felt it was entirely reasonable to pass a bill with 51 votes instead of 60 we expected to hear skepticism about setting aside the filibuster from biden voters particularly the more moderate ones we were surprised at how quickly these voters dismissed those concerns as many pointed out to us republicans have already done this that's great We got we got moderate voters in focus groups saying they don't give a shit about the filibuster. I don't know, man. I don't know. So Benji Sarlin at NBC News tweeted, it's not going to produce two more votes for a voting rights bill. But Biden planning to cast the next two elections politically as a critical defense against an authoritarian movement led by his immediate predecessor is kind of a big deal.

I agree with that is a big deal. Do you think that's an effective message? This is one of the ideas I've been wrestling with as we have had many conversations already about what the 2022 message should be, which is in a world in which it is a midterm that's about firing up your base, obviously, while still holding on to a set of voters that came over to your side because of Trump and how the Republicans acted under Trump, that a message about what the Republicans would do in power may be more powerful than a message about what you did in power, right? Where the best political messages touch an emotional court. And it may be that fear is a better emotional court to hit in

this day and age than gratitude, right? Which is like, look at all these things we did. Let us do more, maybe less motivational to people than, holy fuck, look what's going to happen if these people get in charge, right? And so that, you know, we were talking about like, is it, do you put Trump in the center of this? What are the consequences of that in terms of turnout on your side, their side? Does it look like you're fighting in old battles? Like there are lots of various ways to do it. If you make Trump the center of it, are you also then granting the party some of the populist credentials that Trump had at a time in which the party is about to vote? Every single one of them vote against asking Amazon, ExxonMobil, and Facebook to pay one more dollar in taxes, right? If you put Trump at the

center, are you losing that as best? There's a lot of questions about this. But I do think the thing that Biden and the White House have been criticized by progressive activists, including us at times, for not making the threat against democracy front and center enough, right? And that the passing comments about Jim Crow, greatest assault on democracy and civil war was not matched with action and urgency. And so giving the speeches the right thing to do and raising the stakes is incredibly important. And I think it has to be part of the political conversation for going forward, right? 2022, 2024, like this, like this is the thing that is at the absolute core of everything else. If you don't fix our democracy, nothing else we care about is going

to matter after this build back better bill, which invariably is going to be the four b's b b b b b yeah no it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot of b's it's gonna be the biff and the i kind of think this is going to sound like a cop-out but i do think it should be a little bit of both like i think that it is sufficient to tell voters here's what we've done for you you voted us into office here's what we delivered right so you. You voted us into office. Here's what we delivered. Right. So that's the shots and checks message, shots in arms, checks and pockets. But I do think that you can avoid the looming threat of authoritarianism, particularly if Donald Trump runs again and becomes the Republican nominee. Like it's it's going to be what the election is about. Right. And if it looks like he's making moves towards running even in 2022,

that's going to be a large part of what the midterm is going to be about. And I don't think Democrats or Republicans who were running can even change that that much because that's going to be the media environment. And, you know, to that note, like one thing we know for sure is that the message about authoritarianism like certainly has the advantage of being true. There were some wild excerpts flying around last night from a new Trump book by Washington Post reporters Phil Rucker and Carol Lennig called I Alone Can Fix It. Apparently, General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was so worried that Trump might attempt a coup that all the Joint Chiefs discussed a plan to resign. Milley called Trump's attempt to steal the election his Reichstag moment and feared that the MAGA protests could be the, quote, modern American equivalent of brown shirts in the streets. Milley also said, quote, they may try, but they're not going to fucking succeed. You can't do this without the military. You can't do this without the CIA and the FBI.

We're the guys with guns. What did you think of that story? Jesus Christ. Like all things with Trump, it's shocking, but not surprising, right? Like, of course, like there was a lot of really weird, sketchy shit happening at the Pentagon in the run up to and through the day of January 6th. And, you know, Milley had already sort of publicly come out and said that he would, you know, make sure there was a fair election or he had some quote that made it sort of he was saying before the election or he had some quote that made it sort of he was saying before the election that he was not going to be involved in whatever Trump may want to do. I think it is, this is one of those situations where like we, you know, these books

come out and they have these crazy things from Trump and they sort of distract us from the real problem, which is in all of this, there is no actual indication of Trump putting in place some sort of military coup, right? So then you got a bunch of people, you know, like savvy people saying, see, didn't happen, was never going to happen. There's nothing in this book that says it was going to happen while ignoring the actual coup, which Trump actually admitted in a statement today, responding to the Milley quotes in this book that's coming out, saying, I can't remember the exact line, I'm sure you have in front of you,

but it's like, elections are my coup. Elections, yeah, that's what he said. He said, I'm not, first of all, he said, I'm not into coups, which is funny. And then he said, elections are my coup. And if I was going to do a coup, I wouldn't do it with General Millie. He sucks. It was a real,

it was a real journey of a statement. But look, i think however close you believe we were to an actual coup the fact that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff was so worried that it might be possible that he put in place a plan for the all of the joint chiefs to resign if trump tried anything is pretty fucking scary. Right. So it's like, and, you know, Parker Malloy made this point on Twitter today that there's so much focus on 1-6 and the insurrection and that day as the entirety of the attempted coup. But the attempted coup was basically from the day after the election through the day

that Trump actually fucking left office shortly after shortly after one six. It was the frivolous lawsuits where because he hoped that judges that he installed would overturn the election to him. It was the phone calls to the election officials in Georgia. It was the pressure he put on Republicans. It was the fact that Republicans refused to call Biden the winner. Like this was a whole plot that started the day after the election that stretched to the point where a bunch of fucking armed insurrectionists stormed the capitol right and it is dangerous to memory hole it not because it's important to know our history but because donald trump's gonna run again i think however this is this is a story this is a story about

the front runner for the 2024 Republican nomination. That's what this story was about. And maybe the next speaker of the House. We don't know. Kevin was a Kevin McCarthy's having fucking dinner with him tonight. Well, I think he's he's having lunch with I think he's having lunch with Trump. He's having dinner with Biden, which is awkward as fuck. Yes.

Yeah, that is pretty awkward. I mean, I think he's at a state dinner. I don't think Biden just before anyone tweets it, Joe Biden, he is not like just splitting a pizza with Kevin McCarthy. Yeah, he's not like he's not going to give him a bunch of starbursts. No, no. You pick all the starbursts that he knows Biden hates the most. Just all yellows, all yellows. I like the lemons.

You hate lemons? Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. That's fine. Anyway. Sorry.

You do you. But I think the important point here is however close you thought Trump was to putting in place a coup in 2020, we are 100 miles closer to that in 2024. Because what has happened since January 6th is the Republican Party has systematically and surgically gone about eroding the institutional barriers that prevented that from happening in 2020 and attacked the small number of people within their party who had the courage to stand in the way in 2020 by pushing them out of the Republican caucus, by taking their power away like the Georgia Republicans did to Brad Raffensperger, primarying them like what is happening with Liz Cheney. We are in a much, much, much more dangerous situation going forward than we were then.

And we didn't learn the lesson or know the history. What happened is Republicans saw what stopped them and are going about trying to ensure that they have the opportunity. They are putting in place – this is advanced placement of military units to do it again. It is right. I'm not saying it's not going to happen. There are reasons why it could not, but it is a much greater danger in 2024 than it is 2020. Obviously, just to make this point, the best way to make sure it doesn't happen is help the Democrats keep the House and the Senate. That ensures that it cannot happen. But when Trump says elections are my coup, it's exactly fucking right because Republicans

are putting in place the power to make it possible to award the presidency to someone who loses the popular vote in the electoral college in 2024. That's what he means when he says elections are my coup. I mean, and that's why, you know, the part of me that's been a Democratic strategist and looked at polling for, you know, over a decade thinks, OK, the message has to be about shots and checks and tangibly improving people's lives and making sure that you get the message about Joe Biden's economic agenda. I would say every single swing voter there is right. Like, I firmly believe that because I have looked at the data over many years, and that's what it tells you. But you read stories like this, and you think about the situation we're in, which is unprecedented in the country's history, probably as far back as the Civil War. And I just don't know how you avoid the elephant in the room, which is the fact that the Republican Party is in

the thrall of a demagogue who tried to commit a coup and may again. Like, I don't know how you avoid that when you talk about any kind of message for both the midterms and 2024. And maybe it's a choice, right? Maybe it's like shots and checks versus coups and insurrections is the choice people are making. I don't know. But I think all of it has to be part of it. When we come back, I will talk to the co-founder of Black Voters Matter about voting rights and the fight to pass the For the People Act, LaTosha Brown. Here to talk more about the fight for voting rights, the co-founder of Black Voters Matter, Latasha Brown.

Latasha, welcome back to Pod Save America. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. We're talking a few hours before you head to Washington, D.C. Can you tell us about what's happening there tomorrow? you tell us about what's happening there tomorrow? You know, I am a part of a group of Black women who have been, for the most part, we have worked hours tirelessly to make sure that we're engaging people in this political process that we believe fundamentally in democracy. The Black Women's Roundtable, there are groups of women with Black women that fundamentally we thought last 2020 election would be a critical election. And because of that, many of us in our own organizational capacities or as volunteers or some of us in multiple roles, we gave all we had to really be able to stop

fascism in this nation. We organized nonstop, you know, and we were a critical voting base and critical in moving Black voters in this last election cycle. And so the attack that is happening on voting rights right now, we're extremely disappointed and angry about it. And what we've decided is that, you know, we're going like the old freedom song says, ain't gonna let nobody turn me around. We are more, you know, just're going like the old freedom song says, ain't gonna let nobody turn me around. We are more, you know, just focused more than ever that we have to have federal legislation to protect voting rights in this country. And so we're going to DC. We've been doing a week of actions all week. On Monday, we had a social media week of actions. We had calls all day today.

We had a social media week of actions. We had calls all day today. Tomorrow, we're actually doing some direct action where we're actually going to the meeting with the senators, going to the Capitol. We have a rally happening at one o'clock from one to three. The focus for us is to keep people's mind on what is happening around voting rights in this country, you know, on the attack on voting rights in this country and not let this story die and let people get a sense of urgency,

including our legislators, including President Biden, to really understand that we are in a particular state where we are in a state of emergency around voting rights, particularly as it relates to what we feel the attack that is happening targeted at Black and Brown voters. So speaking about the For the People Act and the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, you know, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have said over and over again now that they

will not get rid of the filibuster. They have so far seemed immune to public pressure. How do you change their minds? You know, it's really interesting. I think that that's a question. Let me say this. I think that's a question for President Biden. I, when president Biden was running, you know, he consistently said, listen, I know the Senate in and out. I worked in the Senate for 36 years. You know, I know how to move senators on the right side of the aisle and left side of the aisle. I am the great, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm the great, uh, uh, uh, convener of pulling people together and getting them to act on the action.

He also, you know, shared around he was in the White House, so he understands how policy works. You know, we saw him be able to put this infrastructure bill together and put the force behind that. What we're saying is that you also have to recognize that voting rights is a critical issue, that the people who actually delivered not only delivered the White House to you, but actually helped and were a significant part of delivering the Senate to you, that we expect you, it's like a baseball game, is you're up, you up to bat, that this is when we expect you to lean into your experience as a senator for multiple decades. This is when we expect you to lean on all of the power that you have in office as a president and get

it done, just as we got it done in the midst of COVID, you know, in the midst of people saying, how are you all going to organize when we got COVID out here? How are you going to organize when you got all these things happening? We found a way, we got it done. And so what we're saying is that we also have that same expectation that the president will get it done, that it is very disingenuous that we're in a space that what you had is you had people to do everything. We didn't leave any. We left everything on the field to organize to make sure that we're actually getting the vote out so that, in fact, he would have the best possible circumstances to govern in. It was Black voters, and it was particularly led by Black women, that actually basically breathed life back into his campaign in South Carolina. It was Black voters, primarily Black women, as well as other American voters, millions of other American voters, but Black voters were key in swing states like Michigan,

in Pennsylvania, and in Georgia. And then on top of that, in a state that has been traditionally a red state, you know, we were able to literally do work, even after we had been in this arduous campaign, to deliver two Senate seats. So we didn't make any excuses. You know, we had all kinds of odds that said that we would not be able to, that this was going to be a difficult uphill battle. And so what we're seeing at this point is that the people that actually gave everything on the field that are now being attacked, because we're literally, what we're

seeing is we're seeing punitive measures because we actually delivered. That those folks now, now we are vulnerable and being punished because we delivered. We expect that every tool that is available to the president will be used, whether that, however he needs to get Manchin and Sinema on board, however he needs to whip those votes, however he needs to organize it, however he needs to do whether that is making a carving out something with the filibuster or ending the filibuster. We expect that kind of commitment to really be able to deliver, to perform just as we did and creating a pathway for this administration to be in office. So you hear from the White House and they tell reporters this on

background that in private conversations with Joe Manchin, he basically tells President Biden, you know, I'm not moving on this. And he doesn't really seem afraid of President Biden because Joe Manchin is going to be senator for 20 till 2024. And he knows West Virginia pretty well. And it's a pretty conservative state. If you were working in the White House, if you had the ear of Joe Biden and Joe Biden said, Latasha, how do I move Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema? How do I get them to change their mind on the filibuster? What advice would you give the president and the White House? You know, there's a couple of things. One, I would say that there are ways that we move.

We move votes and we whip votes publicly and they're not public. I don't know what what it is that Manchin wants. I don't know what it is that Sinema wants. What I do know, let me say this. I don't know what it is that cinema wants. What I do know, let me say this. What I do know is that if Joe Manchin was on the Republican side and he was the one vote that was stopping the Republicans, he wouldn't have a parking space right now. He probably wouldn't even be able to get into Capitol.

What I do know is that there are ways of really being able to put pressure around making sure that you get your people in line. I don't know what those things are specifically what he means. What I would what what I would think is that in this for I think he has to make a make a decision. You know, are you going to let the midterm election and possibility of literally your path forward, literally your path forward, you know, in terms of democratic control of the White House and, you know, of Congress, is that all? Are you going to leave Joe Manchin? Is Joe Manchin going to make that decision? Because we didn't vote for Joe Manchin. We voted for President Biden. My point is, even if we saw everything, I'll say this for me. If I saw that the president was doing everything in his power and used every single tool and at that point was not able to deliver, I would have space for that. I would have some understanding for that. But as long as there's still an attachment to I've not heard the president yesterday in a speech that he gave, which I thought was a really good speech.

heard the president yesterday in a speech that he gave, which I thought was a really good speech. The problem with the speech was it wasn't what he said, it's what he didn't say. In 20 minutes, he never mentioned the filibuster. The filibuster was created, has a long history as a tool that has been a barrier for getting civil rights legislation passed. Matter of fact, the president has actually said that he's not in favor of ending the filibuster, nor even has publicly said any consideration of how he would adjust the filibuster to move forward. My point is that there are ways, politically said and unsaid, that when we want to move things like an agenda, there's no way I'm going to believe that if you can get the Republicans to sign on to a multi-trillion dollar infrastructure bill, it is just hard for me to believe that Joe Manchin is just that difficult of a person.

The question is, is in the midst of Joe Manchin and Sinema, which we do have to put pressure on, and yes, they are problematic. I am saying, though, everything has to be used, I would say, to the president. You know, I would go through the list just like like I'm going with you. You know, one, are you willing to actually have you have you notified both Manchin and Sinema of how this is a critical priority issue for you? Number two, are you willing to use every single tool that is available to you, including the elimination of the filibuster, right? Number three, are you using the power within actually being a president with even political policy to really figure out how you can get the 50 votes that you need? I am saying that it is hard for me to believe. It is hard for me to,

I have not, let me say this. I have not seen the evidence that states that shows that literally every single tool that is available to the president, he is using on advancing voting rights. So, I mean, it would probably boil down to one question. Are you willing to end the filibuster? You were in Austin, Texas last week, where one of the worst voter suppression bills in the country is awaiting a final vote, a vote that cannot happen right now, thanks to more than 50 Democrats who left the state, denying the legislature the quorum it needs to conduct business.

Can you talk about what it felt like on the ground in Texas? And also, whether you think the Texas Democrats who are trying to block this bill can ultimately be successful. So let me say what it felt like in Texas. We had organized a press conference and the delegation came. There were community organizations. There were over 20 community organizations from all over the state that came and stood in solidarity of what we call the suppression session, because all the agenda items that Governor Abbott is offering in this particular session is all around suppressing, not just suppressing the vote, but there are other very, very problematic bills as part of this

package. You know, what was really interesting is when we talked to the Texas delegation, I was actually the kind of curse, they very clear about. This was a very uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable for them You know, we need people to know this is a very difficult moment for them, right? But they feel that it is such a critical targeted attack that they had no choice They have to really be able to lift up that what what is happening in this Texas is not only just happening in Texas It happened in George's happening in all over this nation. And that while they're being targeted, that this is an issue that we need federal legislation. So what I heard, and I said it, you know, I said it that day, I was like, Texas is going to fight back. You know, Texas, Texas, they're not going to take this just,

just laying down. You know, sometimes there is, I think that there are fights, that there's a policy fight, and then there's a public opinion fight, right? And so what I do believe is happening, no, they don't, the bottom line is I'm pragmatic. They do not have, eventually they're going to have to go back. And if the governor calls another session, I'm not sure, they may step out of that session. I'm not sure. But the bottom line is it, in the long term, in which I think they've been very expressive around this you know it would be hard for them to hold out they simply do not have the votes it just Texas is a very conservative state they do not have this vote in the legislature however what they do have is they

do have the people and what do I mean by that when you look at the shifting demographics in Texas when you look at where the growth is coming from, when you look at the growth in brown and black communities, then what you see is you see that the electorate is actually becoming browner. And what you're seeing is I think they are literally fighting for their constituents, for progressive organizations that are completely against many of the items that are in the agenda, I mean, in this session, and the fact that people are still upset about Texas and this grid issue that they had in February. Here it is an opportunity where people right now don't even have access to air conditioning

the same way because they're saying they're rationing out power because of the grid. And here it is an issue where over 700 people died just a few months ago and you would have a special session there's not a single thing in the special session that actually deals with the grid the bottom line is this is political theater that abedin uses as a platform since he's running for office next year they know that and so i think it's extremely courageous for them to stand up even the people that we were talking to in the organizations, they were literally cheering them. They were saying, yes, fight for us. What we saw is we saw hundreds of people to come out

and actually testify or really share their experience on that Saturday around how this voting bill, voting suppression bill will impact them. The people are standing with them. Folks are frustrated. And so what I believe is I think what the Texas Democrats are showing us, they're showing us democracy in action. This is how democracy works. You know, it's just not a matter of we can't reduce it to a numbers game or someone just abusing power.

We have to always align to what it is that the people want and have the courage to stand up and fight for the best interests of democracy and the people in this nation. So you were just talking about how you're pragmatic, which you've always been. Obviously, there are a lot of voter restriction laws in place right now. In all likelihood, there will be more by the time we get to elections in 2021 and especially in 2022 and beyond. Have you started thinking about what the strategy is to sort of organize folks to get around some of these voter voter restriction laws so that, you know, that's that's not the end of the story? You know, we've always done that. Let me let me say this,

that I am a black woman from Selma, Alabama. If I only went on the road that seemed that was possible, I would never get anywhere. My entire life and the whole legacy of my community and my people has been based on literally seeing what is possible when others see what is not possible. And so our strategy has always been in terms of organizing nonstop. We organize 365 days out of the year and we don't just wait and organize and work. And when a presidential election is happening or a federal election is happening, we're organizing around school board level races and city board races and local races. That's how you build out your infrastructure and your ecosystem. What we're saying is what I think the only salvation for democracy in America will not be the political parties.

In many ways, I think part of what has weakened democracy is that I think the political parties have become too powerful, that ultimately what we are now doing is we're actually having a fight between, you know, what political party will have power, and when I really believe that what it has to be is centered around what is going to be in the best interest of people, that the Constitution says we the people, not we the party. But in order to do that, you can't build that if you have only half the population that are engaged in elections. And so what we have to have is we have to literally be able to rebuild a robust electorate by really being able to talk to people about what the issues are happening. But it's really important. It makes it difficult for me. It is hard. You know, when people do what they're supposed to do, then those that we put in place should do what they're supposed to do, too.

Because when they don't. I mean, at this point, I am thinking about where we are right now. So black voters showed up just as other voters, not saying that we're the only voter, but we were certainly an instrumental part of the role that led to Biden being in place. So when we show up, we're being attacked now. We're being targeted right now. So we're going to be punished and we're going to have less access to the ballot because we delivered power, right? And so I think that we have to really, we have to unpeel this. Part of our strategy is going to be to continue to build and organize on the ground. But also part of our strategy is that we're going to hold our leaders accountable that this is not a moment to tell black folks that have been in this country 400 years and now yet wait that there's always some peace that our rights are always negotiable that when it comes to the largest strategy if we can recall dr king did a whole book

around why we can't wait because there's always always been a tendency, even with our allies, that in some way we should wait. The idea that I show up for you, I'm punished for showing up for you, and you're telling me to wait. Is that the message that we're going to send the voters? With that message, what can I organize around? How can I convince voters

who came out in the midst of COVID, that came out in spite of not really being excited about the political candidates. Black folks saved this country from fascism. The question is, are we going to sit around as a nation and allow Black voters in particular to be targeted and for us to actually be targeted because we showed up for this nation? There has been a history of Black people showing up for this nation and this nation not showing up for us. We cannot allow this to be another case because while this is a target for Black folks, these voter laws don't just impact Black people. They undermine democracy for all of us. Whenever you are restraining or you're marginalizing access to the ballot, you're actually weakening democracy. And so we go to the polls to fight this. So there could be a backlash that could actually drive turnout in 2022. And the other could be, you know what? I showed up last time and then all these voter suppression laws passed. And I don't even think my vote's going to count.

So why even bother? Talking to people on the ground as you do, where do you get the sense of how this is going to affect the mindset of voters? And sort of how do you see that in terms of like your strategy for organizing? So, you know, when you're organized around elections, there's kind of two, there's two kind of motivating factors. You're either in an election where your people are voting against something or they're voting for something. That's how it works, right? I, as a political strategist, as a political operative, it would be hard pressed for me to say, unless there is some amazing feat where we're taken over by aliens, to even think that we would have the same kind of turnout in 2022 that we would have in 2020. The whole political landscape

in 2020 was very different, that there were people that voted literally that understood what we were up against. They saw Trump as a threat to democracy. They saw Trump as being aligned with white nationalism. They saw a different kind, there was a different kind of sense of urgency that existed in 2020, in spite of all the other things that were going on, right? We know that there's going to be a drop-off in performance. We just know this, right? That there's going to be a drop-off in performance. The question is, on 2022, what are we going to get people to vote for? It is not going to be good enough to say, oh, come on out again, right? It's not going to be good enough

when you're telling Black voters, we know you got to vote a little bit harder. We know you got to do a little extra step, but just come on out and trust us this time, right? When we, it's going to be very, we've got to also be pragmatic. That just like when you are in working, you're negotiating within the political spectrum,

you have to have something to negotiate with. I'm saying, give me something that's organized and negotiate with. What do you suggest I tell voters at this point? What can I tell voters? Do I go back to my community and say, I know we worked really hard. Just work harder. I know they made it a little tougher for us, but if we work harder, they're going to help us this time. What assurances do I have, right? Right. When we came out in extraordinary numbers, my point is that it's really important for us to really recognize that we are in a different political landscape. And in this political landscape, even young voters that voted this last time, it wasn't that they were so engaged or even interested in the system. We would have a lot of conversations where they were very intentional

about we're voting because they knew that there was a larger threat. They knew that there was something greater that was at hand. They voted because of all what was happening. Without those set circumstances, I think we also know that the political landscape has shifted. And so then the question becomes what, it's like I always say the Janet Jackson principle, it is going to be the question, what have you done for me lately? And so what is it that we tell folks? COVID, yes, that was great. Yes. I think that the president has done an excellent job, but the fact that, I mean, which one of us, who do you know that would actually literally work hard for somebody so that they can be in a position of power? And and then they have to they're being told, well, you got to work a little bit harder after they've been punished for working for that people.

Who do you know? Right. Right. Asian. What person do you know? Well, you know, to your earlier point about President Biden, I think it's another reason why you fight as hard as you can for this, President Biden and every Democrat in office. And even if you lose, you want to show people that you are willing to go to the mat and fight with every last, you know, everything you have to get this done. Because then when you ask them to show up in the next election, they say, all right, well, you fought pretty hard for me, even though you lost. That's all we're saying. That's all I'm saying. And at the end of the day, the work that I do. Do you know how many campaigns I've lost? How many campaigns I lost? But why does my phone still ring? Right. Because when I am on the ground, I leave it all on the field. I don't have I don't walk away from campaigns having regrets. I know that I have the marks.

I have the marks on my back. I leave it all on the field, right? I am going to play as hard as I can. And when people know that you're literally coming to the table, not only being authentic, but that you're literally doing everything you can, right? They have a different, they give grace and space for that. What has been disappointing or very disappointing for me is that literally the tool that I think that is the greatest tool that is standing as a barrier, which is the filibuster. I have not heard the president say that he is willing to consider ending the filibuster, you know, if that continue to serve as a barrier for this legislation. And I think it will serve as a barrier of the legislation because we know we're not going to get 60 votes on that. Right. So there's going to have to be a different kind of strategy.

Saturday marks the one year anniversary of the passing of John Lewis, one of the greatest organizers in the history of this country. Are there specific lessons you take from Representative Lewis that you still think about today and possibly lessons that can give people hope who are looking at the headlines right now and thinking, oh, I don't feel like anything good is going to happen. And I don't know why I should bother. Absolutely. I think one of the lessons that I get from him, you know, I love to share his, I am a native of Selma, Alabama. And last year, right before COVID, just a couple of weeks right before COVID, he was in Selma. He came to the Selma to Montgomery March. It was the anniversary. He came to the Selma to Montgomery March. When we got to the top of the bridge, the Eben Pettus Bridge, it was like a sea opening up. He walked up and we all knew that he was in stage four. He was of cancer that he was literally, he was literally fighting for his life. He got off his bed. He came, had them to drive him to Selma. He walked up with the sisters on the bridge and they put, had a little step for him.

And I can see it just as clear. I actually have a video that I took on my phone of it. And he was standing on that. And he said, don't fight, don't give up. And I'm thinking to myself, because I was very frustrated. Even at that point, I'm thinking to myself, here's a man that literally is fighting for his life, literally fighting for his life, that in the midst of all of that, right, he is still that committed to voting rights, you know, that he would literally give a message. So something about literally standing in that space that you just never give up. We cannot give up. It doesn't matter what Manchin and Sinema, you know, like you, do you think that all of the work I've done and all the work and the sacrifice that we're going

to let Manchin and Sinema stand in our way? No, right? We're not even going to let Biden stand in our way. The bottom line is we're going to be relentless around we're not going to rest until our voting rights are protected. We are not going to accept second-plan citizenship. We're not going to accept participating in a process that we've got to be punished whenever we participate in it. That is not going to happen. And so I think the first thing I get from John Lewis is, may he rest in peace, is that literally standing in this space of being resolved, right, that being resolved around knowing what your role is, knowing that you ain't gonna let nobody turn you around, and that you're going to be really resilient in that. The second piece that

I get from him is that I think that we have to really operate out of a space of love, that even in the work that I do as an activist, it is always rooted in this notion of for the love of humanity. No matter what I do, it is always, you know, even for me, if there were a bunch of Republicans that literally had a complete difference in policy than I had. Right. And we were showed up at the polls and someone was trying to deny them the right to vote. I would fight for them. I would fight as fiercely for them as I would for myself, because I fundamentally believe that every single person, every single human being has agency and should have a right to have input on decisions that are being made by them in their lives. And so I think that's the other piece. I think what is very disturbing and problematic to me

around what has happened in this political paradigm that we're existing in right now Is that this loss of the basic decency around this value of humanity that we can actually disagree? We can actually create policy but actually when we're denying somebody their humanity Why would you think how dare you? To believe that it is okay for you to have a right to vote and somebody else not to have a right to vote about Their lives. I don't care what who they are. You can disagree with them on policy, but my fundamental principle belief, I believe in democracy because I believe in humanity. And the third thing I think that I take from John Lewis is that he always was a ball of joy. If people knew him, he always had a space in the midst of, he never let this fight embitter him, right? He never let this fight get him to the space of where he couldn't see the joy in life or the joy of others. And so part of our work, even with Black Voters

Matter, that's why oftentimes when you see us, there's going to be some music, there's going to be some food, there's going to be some dancing, because we also recognize that part of this process is very difficult and can be very hard, but we also have to create joy because sometimes that's the thing that reminds us of our humanity. That's what allows us to connect to other people. And so those are the things that I really take from him in this process around literally having that path forward, that while it is about democracy, it really ain't. It's really about our humanity. And how do we literally strengthen this system of democracy that actually honors that?

I think it's so important to remember that there is joy in the struggle. Latasha, every time you come on this pod, you inspire me, you give me hope, and you fire me up. So thank you for that. Thank you for all the work you're doing. And good luck in D.C. tomorrow. And let us know how it goes. I will. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the work you're doing and uh and good luck in dc tomorrow and uh let us know how it goes i will thank you so much thank you for having me thanks to latasha brown for joining

us today uh everyone have a great weekend we'll talk to you next week bye everyone hot save america is a crooked media production the executive producer is michael martinez our senior producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Nar Melkonian, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.