Pod Save America - “Fetterman vs The Phony Sociopath.”

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

John Fetterman debates Dr. Oz.  Democrats get more nauseous on the pollercoaster. Sen. Catherine Cortez-Masto checks in to talk about her race in Nevada. Oregon Democrat Tina Kotek tells us about her race for governor. And comedian Mike Birbiglia tells us about his new Broadway show The Old Man in the Pool, and his surprise cameo in a new Taylor Swift music video. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. 

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's pod, Jon Fetterman debates Dr. Oz. Democrats start to panic because what else is new? Nevada Senator Catherine Cortez Masto joins to talk about her race. Oregon gubernatorial candidate Tina Kotek joins to talk about her race. And then comedian Mike Birbiglia joins to talk about his new Broadway show, The Old Man in the Pool, and what it's like to star in a Taylor Swift video. It's a great interview. It's a great interview. So just stick around for the end for some fun. But first, check out Crooked Media's newest podcast, Work Appropriate, hosted by author and journalist Anne Helen Peterson.

If you've ever messaged a friend about a manager who won't stop texting after hours or a coworker who keeps posting weirdly suggestive Austin Powers gifs in Slack, you're not alone. On this pod, Anne sets out to find solutions to these oddly specific yet completely universal listener-submitted questions. Whether you work in an office chair or a sixth grade classroom, the problems may be limitless, but so are the solutions. Listen to the first episode of Work Appropriate now, wherever you get your podcasts. Anne Helen Peterson is fantastic. It's a great podcast. Definitely go check it out. Definitely go check it out. All right, let's get to the news. The only debate in one of the country's most important Senate races took place in Pennsylvania on Tuesday between John Fetterman, who's still

recovering from a stroke, and Dretterman, who's still recovering from a stroke, and Dr. Oz, who will never recover from being a pee-drinking, puppy-killing, quack TV doctor from New Jersey with 10 houses. Fetterman has been open about a lingering issue where he still has some trouble hearing and sometimes expressing his thoughts clearly, and those challenges were plainly evident during the debate, which caused a lot of pundits and Democrats to freak the fuck out. As for Oz, he lied a lot, repeatedly refused to say whether he supports a national abortion ban, and instead said he wants the decision made by, quote, women, doctors and local political leaders.

Dan, let's start with Fetterman. So there were a lot of people on Twitter and in the media predicting with great certainty how his debate performance would impact the race spoiler no one really thought it would help uh what did you think i gotta take a deep breath because i have a lot of breath i have a lot of thoughts on this a lot and i will try to self-edit here for this since we have three interviews on this podcast. Okay. Are you asking me whether a man who suffered a stroke five months ago did not do as well in a debate as a practiced television pundit with 30 years of honing his craft on TV? Yeah, that happened. Could it hurt him in this race? Maybe,

maybe not. I don't know. But one of the problems with how this was covered is it was all about optics. It did not state the most important thing, the thing we have to say, the thing the press should have said, which is people who have strokes have a recovery process. During that recovery process, they often have challenges with auditory processing, as John Fetterman would say, hearing things, saying things, getting your words out. There is no suggestion that he's not going to get better. And there's absolutely no suggestion that he is in any way impaired other than the words coming out of his mouth, that there's any sort of mental impairment, that he can't do the job. But no one said that. That was not how it was covered. Instead of taking that piece of information that a lot of voters don't know, most voters don't know

about the stroke recovery process. They don't understand how it works. They don't know about auditory processing. So the people whose job it is to inform the voters when covering this debate did not do that. Instead, they decided to predict what the people who didn't have the information would think if they never gave them the information. That is an abdication of duty. It was disgusting. It was offensive. It was absolutely a disservice.

The coverage was terrible. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty bad. It was particularly terrible. Digging in just to prepare for this pod, as you got into some of the articles about it, you know, it was better. Slate interviewed a bunch of doctors about this. The New York Times interviewed a couple doctors about this as well. And of course, as you just said, all of the doctors said, yeah, there's nothing wrong with his cognitive ability, with his ability to think his mind is as sharp as ever. It is purely an issue of hearing and

getting the words out, which is very typical. And all of these doctors said it looks like he's recovering well. A lot of them thought he actually did pretty good in the debate, considering how long ago the stroke was and how long the recovery process usually lasts. And yeah, he's going to have trouble hearing and speaking, but his mind is as sharp as ever, which is something that we both noticed when we interviewed him on this podcast. Yeah, he sat down with Kara Swisher,

the toughest interviewer in journalism, right around the time he talked to us. There is no this idea, the impression that was left in this coverage. And there is a distinction between the people who wrote thoughtful articles about it. bunch of fucking Yahoo sitting in their apartment in D.C. who have not been to Pennsylvania, have not talked to John Fetterman, have no capacity to know what the voters of Pennsylvania may or may not think about this. And that is true. But they left the impression that there's a possibility that John Fetterman cannot do the job. And that is fucking insane. It is not true. There is no evidence of that. There is a mountain of evidence that he can. It is absurd. It is absolutely absurd. And then some of it, they defend it like, well, how's he going to do floor debates in the Senate

while he recovers? Floor debates in the Senate? What the fuck are you talking about? Is he going to lose a cloture motion to Tommy Tuberville, a fucking piece of astroturf representing a Republican Senate seat? Like, what the fuck? It is so stupid. These people have never, it just, it is the worst elements of political journalism manifested themselves in this all the way. Think about it this way, right? Try to explain this to people in ways that they would understand. Let's hypothetically say someone breaks their leg. And then a few months after breaking their leg, they have to run in a foot race against a trained runner. And then they don't do well. Are they in the process of recovering from their broken leg?

Yes. Are they going to be faster next week? Yes. Are they going to be completely better a year from now? Yes. There is no worse format in the entire world for someone dealing with the issues that John Fetterman is dealing with, like so many people who have suffered from strokes, than a televised, soundbite-driven debate. Like, of course he did not do great here. Of course he didn't. It's impossible to do great there. Right. The issue I think goes even beyond the media, though it is, as you correctly point out, their responsibility and obligation to actually report what happened and not to predict, right? Are you about to turn to the voters for a second here? Yeah, I am a bunch of voters. Okay, can I say one more thing? Just one more thing thing you know what would have been fucking useful for the people covering it to focus on what john federman said not how he said it because we know that he's going to be able

to say it more clearly next year in the senate what about that yeah it's not fucking figure skating contest but it did but it was what this is what i'm getting at it is a figure skating contest but it did but it was what this is what i'm getting at it is a figure skating contest and we have talked about that so many times before like we talk about optics debates are the fucking optics olympics we have hated them forever even before our boss almost uh lost the 2012 re-elect because of how poorly he did in his first debate against smit romney during that campaign he has never liked debates. We never liked them during the primary in 2007. They are a fucking joke. They're the worst way to fucking pick candidates. And yet we have them and they're a thing. And so we all have to deal

with them. And like, let's be honest, of course it was difficult to watch John Fetterman in that debate. But then you have to ask yourself, why? Why was it difficult? Well, the most honest reaction, the first reaction, the reaction I hope most people have had, the reaction I certainly had, was because it is difficult to watch another human being struggle to communicate effectively when you know that they've had a medical incident that causes it, right? That's just like a natural, hopefully human reaction that most people have. But then the second reaction that I think a lot of people had, a lot of Fetterman supporters had is, oh, no. And it wasn't, oh, no. Do I still think he should be senator? It was, oh, no. Do a majority of Pennsylvanians still think he should be senator?

Because we are all pundits now. This is the problem. And like, I mean, we literally are pundits. We literally are pundits. But I'm saying everyone listening is acting like a pundit as well, because like the New York Times went out and interviewed a bunch of voters about this. And there wasn't one Fetterman supporter or someone who's on the fence who said, oh, you know what? I was a Fetterman supporter. And then I saw the debate. Now I changed my mind.

But there were plenty of Fetterman supporters who said it was tough to watch. And I'm just worried what other people will think. I'm worried that this will hurt them. And people start doing all their punditry. And like, I get that. But as you said, we are all guessing. We are just all guessing. We don't know the answer. What we do know is that John Fetterman's doctor released a letter saying he has no restrictions on what he can do. He is completely fit to be senator. All these other independent medical experts said this is completely normal. We know that.

And we know that Dr. Oz is a phony asshole whose campaign has, like, relentlessly mocked John Fetterman for several months for having a stroke, which is completely on brand for Dr. Oz because he is a fucking guy who's gotten rich off other people's suffering. This is a guy who like a bunch of colleagues, medical doctors at Columbia University tried to get him fired in 2015 from Columbia University because they said that he has disdain for science and evidence-based medicine because all he does is go on TV and promote fucking quack remedies that don't actually work so he can get rich

and other people don't actually get healthy. That's who Dr. Oz is, and that's why he fucking mocked John Fetterman for having a stroke for the last couple months. So it's like, do you want the guy who's gotten rich off other people suffering, or do you want the guy who has been suffering because he had a stroke,

which millions of Americans have had, but is otherwise completely healthy and mentally alert and ready to do this job and actually fight for the people of pennsylvania like and so when you're worried about like what it's going to mean for john fetterman like fucking pick up a phone talk to some voters knock on some doors in pennsylvania and just tell that to people tell the people the real difference between the two candidates oh my god i'm so worked up about this i'm so mad about it yeah and i'll tell you and i'm just i want to i'm just i'm mad at the at the media like you are but like you know what fucking all of these stories had democrats in pennsylvania there were some democratic strategists who put their name on

the quote there were many of them of course who were just fucking cowards who gave anonymous quotes who were like this was bad i can't this. If you're a fucking Democrat and you were talking to a reporter, you're a Democratic strategist, and you're talking to a reporter about why you are freaked out about John Fetterman's debate performance, what is that going to do? Is that going to make any fucking difference? Is that going to help Democrats at all? Or is that just going to make you feel fucking important because you talked to a fucking reporter? There's an NBC News story. Every single fucking democrat in that story should feel ashamed of themselves a fucking ashamed of themselves chris cofinas all of them they were that was

fucking ridiculous ed randell's out there again of course oh ed randell had thoughts on something what oh great now your relationship with the reporters are great yeah you you had you saw your name in print congratulations fucking assholes i we've said it before give me a new party i will say it again them out one of her party's greatest failings over the last many years is our inability to develop an inner monologue you know what you're nervous about it i'm nervous about it you and i do i text you republicans don't do this shit unbelievable what's like i just don't call up your reporter friends you're gonna see them at fucking cafe milano later so i gotta be tight with them you know i gotta give them an anonymous quote because then they'll call me and then i'll feel more important good for you good for you you're really moving the ball forward some democrats said that fetterman just should have refused to debate like do you think that was a viable option? I do not. I mean, I don't pretend to know John Fetterman particularly well,

but what I do know about him suggests there's not a chance he was going to do that. That's just not, doesn't seem to be in his DNA. And his campaign has run what I think to date has been the best campaign of the cycle. They have been ahead of the curve. They have been smart. Yes, this race is close now, but the fact that it is close in a tough Democratic year with a candidate who missed months on the trail because they suffered a stroke on the day they won the nomination is pretty impressive. And so they have a reason they chose us. And it's easy to be one of these fucking Twitter strategists that you just talked about, even though you mentioned actual real Democratic strategists who talk too much. Let's talk about the people who pretend to have all the fucking answers

who have never thought that maybe they should take that omniscient knowledge about politics and apply it to actually working in the fucking business and saving the party instead of just tweeting about it.

Like, what about those people? It's like, I know everything that's going to happen in sports gambling, but I won't place a bet anywhere. Obviously this very good campaign had looked at this question. I bet they even asked voters about it.

Maybe they use data and they made a decision. There was no good option here. No, I think they chose the best of two bad options and did the best. They absolutely could. And the question isn't what happened. It's what's, it was what's going to happen next.

How do they, I don't even want to say like bounce back from, so that's not the right term. How do they close this campaign out on offense, not on defense, because of the way this played out, at least in the 24, 36 hours afterwards is they were on the defensive.

And so where do we go from here? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, why did his strategist let him do this? Like you're right. John Fetterman is a pretty strong willed guy. Did anyone think of the fact that maybe just John Fetterman wanted to do this and that he wanted to do this because his entire brand has debate. Right. It is, again, counterfactuals are easy now, but I can very easily imagine a complete freak out over John Fetterman saying, I do not want to debate Dr. Oz because I am not fully recovered from my stroke and I'm not going to be able to effectively communicate. Like you can you can just see that freak out now. You can hear it. So it's like it's just impossible to do the counterfactual at this point.

And I'm sure they thought that maybe his recovery would be further along than it is at this point when they agreed to the debate. Like, you just don't know. You don't know. So let's talk about Dr. Oz's most memorable moment. Here is a clip of that abortion answer. I want women, doctors, local political leaders, letting the democracy that's always allowed our nation to thrive, to put the best ideas forward so states can decide for themselves. So Democrats trying to make that Oz moment matter more than Fetterman's debate performance. You think that's possible? And how do they do it? Let's just for one second, just dwell on what he said.

Yeah. Essentially, what he's saying is you're on the phone with your doctor making a very personal medical decision and you have to conference in the county assessor. Like, what are we doing? Like that, like that is like in a world, let's say that there was no questions about John Fetterman's debate performance. That would be the biggest gaffe committed by a candidate in a debate in years. Years. Abortion is a central issue in the campaign. Dr. Oz has spent months trying to fuzz up his position, to bounce back from these extreme positions he took in the primary, to try to make himself not seem like the extremist he is.

Then he says on a debate stage that he thinks local political officials, not local health officials, not local government officials, which are all offensive and terrible, local political officials should be involved in the decision. You, your doctor, the alderman. Like, what? It's just – like, that's a huge deal. Can they make that matter more than debate performance? I don't know.

Maybe not. But we have to – you have to think about it as if there is X amount of conversation about the debate. You have to think about it as if there is X amount of conversation about the debate. And if the campaign can make it be 50-50 or 60-40 debate performance compared to Dr. Oz's abortion statement, then that's good. Like, fuzz it up, get it out there, be aggressive about it. Every little bit of conversation about what he said about abortion is going to help both maybe convince some voters who are still deciding what they're going to do or feel cross-pressured in a number of ways between just angry at Democrats generally, not John Fetterman specifically, and concerns about Republican extremism or concerns about Republican extremism compared to concerns as ill-founded as they think they are about John Fetterman's performance. That could matter. And so you got to do it. And I think it was smart they put an ad out the morning after the debate

to try to push this issue. Also, if you look at Pennsylvania state media and local media, they did cover, I think, Oz's abortion moment more than they did Fetterman's debate performance because local and state media, they don't have a pundit brain as much as like national media does well they are you saying they talk to voters in the state yeah well but also like they they like report sort of straight news stories where they just talk about what happened and they don't start talking about they don't like make pundit predictions in the middle of their copy you know as much so so that that happened look I think something with Dr. Oz's answer there like, this is the guy who said abortion is murder, right? So it's not necessarily surprising.

What he was trying to do is basically say, like, yeah, he knows how unpopular a national ban is, but he's totally fine with state bans and local, right? He's totally fine with state politicians and local politicians banning abortion. He just knows that for some reason a national ban is unpopularpopular so he wants to dance around that and not give us an answer the guy is like this dr oz is such a phony he is such a fraud like this is why the this is why the new jersey thing i'm sure like after this race i'm gonna be like should they have focused so much on new jersey or the or wegmans or the fucking houses and stuff like that. Dr. Oz is a phony sociopath. He will do and say anything to win, to make money, to do whatever. He's a Trump supporter. This guy is a Trump supporter, maybe was pro-choice at some point, now is pro-life, says abortion's murder,

says he wants local politicians to be able to ban abortion wherever they want. I mean, the guy's all fucking over the place. And I do think that like, if you if you if you need a message about Dr. Oz, in closing, you sort of need to get at the core of who he is, right? It's not just about one issue. It's about just like who this guy is, can you trust him? And clearly, for like everything he's done from killing puppies to his abortion answer, I don't think you can. I don't think you can. Trump super PAC just spent $800,000 on this ad about Fetterman. Joe Biden and John Fetterman are it up to these challenges.

Biden is stumbling around and Fetterman just isn't right. Our economy is coming to an end. The Eagles are so much better than the Eagles. Biden and Fetterman, liberal, clueless, weak. Make America Great Again is responsible for the content

of this advertising. The voice and the music, always the same. What do you think about that line of attack and how do you think Fetterman should respond both to that ad

and just in general in these final two weeks? What's his closing message? I'm so glad that noted sophist and famed orator Donald Trump is here to police people speaking. I know, I know. I think Fetterman should welcome this ad. He should welcome Donald Trump in this race. It cannot hurt to remind people that Dr. Oz is a Trump toady. He is only running for this

seat because Donald Trump asked him to. He only won the primary because Donald Trump endorsed him. Just highlight that fact. That is good. That is important. I think I'm going to give you a preview. Trump's doing a rally in La Trobe November 5th on the final weekend. Next weekend, Trump's doing a rally. I'm assuming Dr. Oz shows up, but who knows? Maybe it's just Mastriano. Dr. Oz has to show up if he doesn't. Trump will tweet about him. Sorry, truth about him. I don't know when Donald Trump's getting back on Twitter. Maybe it'll be by Friday. I don't know. Could be right now. Yeah, but that's how they're going to close out the campaign, images of Donald Trump and Dr. Oz together. There you go.

So from the perspective of the Fetterman campaign, I think it is a couple of things. First, I would highlight Trump's role in this. I think in this ad, in this rally, I think that's great. Second is do everything you can to draw attention to the abortion comment. I think, as I said, that sort of dilutes some of the negative energy that has come out of this and sort of the political conversation about it. negative energy that has come out of this and the sort of the political conversation about it. And then third, and this is a decision only he could make in this campaign can make because they know how he's doing the best. But the I'm I think the only way around is through. And that is, as we know, from when we talked to him, we talked to Kara Swisher. The debate is a particularly bad

format. So we you want people to hear from all time there was that He had to do a rally the next day in front of several thousand people. He sounded much better in the rally than he did at the debate. Do interviews if they're the right format. Do rallies. Put in your final ads, I think, John Fetterman to camera speaking so that people can hear that. Just show them, give them content, something else. People want to support John Fetterman. They like John Fetterman.

You know this from the wilderness. They do not like Dr. Oz. Give them a permission to support the guy they want to support by showing them where he truly is, showing them something different than this debate, explaining it to them. And so I think that's ultimately the final sort of steps here for this campaign in the last moments of this race. Yeah. In fact, the voters that I spoke to in that Pittsburgh focus group said, you know, sometimes he doesn't say everything correctly. Sometimes he does it, you know, but, but I still just, I just trust him. I just believe him. And I do. And I think that you've got to, uh, you've got to show people that, right. That's, that's why people fell in love with them in the first place. Um, okay. So Tuesday's debate, uh, was just the,

uh, cherry on top of a shit Sunday of polls and and blind quotes and stories that have Democrats in a state of panic, which is the party's second favorite state after after self-loathing. So there was a New York Times report this week that Democrats have mostly given up on contesting Trump districts and are instead focused on holding districts that biden won uh some that he won by double digits sean macleway our friend who runs the progressive polling firm data for progress said quote we thought for a little bit that we could defy gravity but the reality is setting in and not to put too fine of a point on it but in the final weeks of this midterm joe biden will be campaigning in the battleground state of New York. Dan, what is going on here? What is going on? Maybe the bottom is falling out, John. Maybe it's not. I don't know. Maybe the polls show Democrats losing. All right. Maybe they're wrong. The question I would have for everyone is, what is any of this going to do to change

your plan for the next 10 days? Are you going to make fewer phone calls because Democrats are losing? Are you going to make more? Are you going to give less money? It doesn't matter. We are at this stage in campaigns. You know what happens? The campaign manager goes to the communications office, the people who make the ads, and they say, give me your staff. They're going to go knock fucking doors. All that's left here is turning out and persuading voters. That's all there is. It doesn't matter what some guy named Nate says. It doesn't matter what the polling average says. It doesn't matter the needle. None of that. That's all there is to it. And there's just this thing that we try to remind people all the time on this podcast is

there is a pro-truth, pro-democracy, anti-MAGA majority in this country and in all the states that are going to decide the Senate and the key governance races. These are states Joe Biden won. If that coalition that defeated Trump in 18 and 20 turns out on November 8th, we're going to win. And if they don't, we're going to lose. And nothing that happens on Twitter or cable is going to affect that. And that calculus remains the same. And I will just offer some context about the larger political environment, because I do think if you're out there thinking like, what does it matter at this point? The bottom's falling out. these polls are horrible what what difference can i make you should know that look i mean at the beginning of 2020 there's a lot of political scientists

political strategists who looked at the fundamentals in that race and said like this is going to be close and then a million things happen that seem to tilt the race towards joe biden donald trump had fucking covid like a lot happened in 2020 and then there were these like polls at the end of that race with these huge biden leads and everyone was all getting all excited and it ended up being a really close race just as the fundamentals suggested right so like this time the fundamentals suggest a pretty tough environment for Democrats for two reasons. One, because the president's party almost always loses seats in the first midterm. Almost always.

Usually a significant number of seats. And, on top of that, inflation is really high. That said, the reason it might not be a full wipeout, the reason it's still close in a lot of these races right now is because of a couple things one polarization like it's just there's democrats vote for democrats republicans vote for republicans independents usually lean one way or the other and have similar voting patterns um gerrymandering in the house is actually limited in you know it's it's it's bad for a million reasons but the upside is it's actually limited a lot of um competitive seats so there's like a lot of democrats in safer seats because of the way that uh the map was drawn there's also a lot of republicans in safer seats so just

the terrain is smaller in the house so the losses could be stemmed that way and of course potentially because of dobs and republican extremism that is that is different so like all of those factors together yeah the fundamentals are just a very shitty political environment for Democrats no matter what happened in 2022. But there are a bunch of things working in our favor that make this race close,

that make all of these races within, and I've now heard this a couple times over the last few weeks from our team and from some other people. These aren't margin of error races. They're margin of effort races. I kind of like that.

It's good. Yeah. I don't know where it came from, but it just started popping up in a couple places. Everyone said it's margin of effort, meaning these races will be decided based on what you all do, what we all do.

I think that's an important point on the polls. It's just they are not supposed to predict what's going to happen. That's not what they do. They were never supposed to do that. They were even in an era when they were not possibly fundamentally broken, they were imprecise. And that up to and down to is the same thing in most polls. And so we just don't know. There are also usually snapshots of what was going on two weeks earlier, not what's happening now or what's going to happen in the future. Right. So you're always looking in the rearview mirror when you're looking at a poll. So the polls are coming out today. Maybe they tell you with relative accuracy what happened last week or so.

But it's hard to tell what's happening now or what's happening later. I'll still look at them. Sometimes it's sometimes what you see in the mirror is the T-Rex from Jurassic Park. And sometimes not, we don't know. All right. So here's something you can do. We've talked a lot on the show about the Senate. Everyone has donated generously to the Senate fund. It helped all these Democratic Senate candidates want to talk about the house. The congressional leadership fund, which is the Kevin McCarthy super PAC, just dumped another $11 million into house races with less than two weeks to go. So a lot of house races could use more money. Some of them could use your time to help mobilize voters who might otherwise sit this one out.

Again, all voters are a persuasion target at this point, whether they're thinking about voting for Republicans or thinking about not voting at all. You have to persuade people, right? So you go to votesaveamerica.com, sign up to help knock on doors or make calls or send texts. But also we have updated our house fund to reflect the races where your donation can have the most impact right now. So we have a list of house races where, again, we talked to all the people in these races, talked to other strategists, sort of like ran the numbers. And these are the races where you'll have the most bang for your buck, where your dollars can go the furthest and actually really help some of these candidates.

So go to VoteSaveAmerica.com, donate to the House Fund and sign up for some volunteer shifts. OK, when we come back, Dan interviews Senator Catherine Cortez Masto about her close race in Nevada. And after that, you'll hear an interview that Tommy did with Oregon gubernatorial candidate Tina Kotek. Joining us now is a Nevada senator up for re-election in just a few weeks and the first Latina senator ever elected, Catherine Cortez Masto. Welcome back to Pod Save America. Oh, Dan, it's great to talk with you. It's always great to join you on the pod.

It's great to see you. We are just less than two weeks out, incredibly close race, control the Senate. It lies in the balance. How are you feeling right now? You know, there's so much energy here. I feel on the ground the same energy that I felt back in 2016 when I ran for U.S. Senate for the first time. I just, you know, I'm third generation of Aden. I get around the state quite often. I show up in the rural communities and in our urban areas everywhere. And there's a lot of energy on the ground. People are paying attention. Number of issues that they talk to me about, including the kitchen table issues. And they're, they're coming out. I, you know, I,

I just, I have to say everywhere I go and, you know, I spend a lot of time traveling between Vegas and Reno. And to do that, you have to fly because it's what over, it's about a seven hour drive. And everywhere I go, airports, on the planes, in the grocery stores, at events, people will come up to me and talk about the election and show their support. And so that's good to see. And I just feel that energy. And now it's just making sure people vote. It's a really focus on is getting and turning out our voters. It's a ground game now. And that's why we're knocking on doors and we're phone banking and we're making sure we're getting

into the communities and talking to voters here in Nevada about the importance now of exercising their right to vote. Some very important questions here for you. First, how many members of your family have endorsed Adam Laxalt? Well, I don't think any that I am aware of. How many members of Adam Laxalt's family have endorsed you? Well, I will say there was about 14 of them because I just called every single one of them to thank them. And I was honored to have their support. Yes. It's just notable for the people listening that the people who know Adam Laxalt best

are supporting you. Well, listen, and let me just say this, because not only am I honored to have their support, of course, but so many across the state, not just Democrats, Republicans have stood with me publicly, nonpartisans. I have the support of so many from our firefighters to law enforcement to our really organized labor here and so many people. So it really has been an honor to get that support and see the various diversity of folks coming out that are willing to recognize the work that we've done together here in the state of Nevada and their support

for me to continue it. One of the big questions that I think will determine how, what happens in your state and for Democrats across the country is younger voters helped deliver the House in 2018, the White House and the Senate in 2020. In your conversation with, you know, as you're going door to door and talking to folks, what are you hearing from young voters and how you feel about their engagement in this election? Well, and you're right. Young voters are so important. And I will tell you, not as just knocking on doors and talking to them. They're part of my campaign. And we have volunteers that are young voters or juniors and seniors in high school, some of them getting ready to vote, but they're engaged and they're concerned about their future and whether it's environmental justice issues or the cost of education or, you know, in a state right now where the main hospitality industry here is the travel and tourism, and I'm sure their families, particularly in Southern Nevada,

work in that industry, making sure it's strong and robust, and we're creating jobs and they have a future, and we're leaning in to address the climate crisis around the drought that we deal with here and the wildfire. So it is a combination of things. I will say, though, it really is exciting for me not to just be able to talk to them and show up and have these conversations because I go to our high schools, I go to our college campuses, and I talk to people, but they're volunteering. They're coming out to knock on doors on my behalf. They're volunteering, and they're talking to their peers, and they're talking to other voters about what matters to them, and rightfully so, right? They

shouldn't be holding us accountable for their future and protecting that future, and that's why for me, it is important to be engaging with them all the time. And nationally, the conversation around all of these elections hits on a bunch of issues, inflation and associated economic issues, crime, abortion, the future of democracy. But one issue that I know is very important in your state, it's important nationally, but maybe even more so in your state is housing. Can you just, for folks, let them know the difference for people who are concerned about the high cost of housing between having you in the Senate and your opponent in the Senate

or Democrats in charge of the Senate or Republicans in charge of the Senate? Just what are the fundamental differences on the housing issue? Yeah. So first of all, most folks don't know I was born and raised here, third generation. And for me, it is making sure all of our families have the same opportunities that I had growing up that my family had with support of our community members. You know, every time there's a downturn in the economy, something happens because our revenue base is hospitality and travel. We take a hit. So the last subprime mortgage crisis that we had, I was the attorney general. And too many of our families and individuals and advance were losing their homes. And so that's when I took on the big banks. I remember I took on the big banks and said, no, we're we're going to fight for our families to keep a roof over their head. We're going to make sure they're treated fairly. And that's when I really went after the banks and brought in about almost

a billion dollars to just support our families. So do I know how important housing is in the state? Absolutely. Housing to so many families is also healthcare and it's a comfort level for their families and their kids and their future. And so that's why when I got into the Senate, I wanted to be on the Senate Committee of Housing and Banking. Because of the work that I had done, I'd known the fight for our families, and I wanted to continue that on the Senate Banking Committee and have been able to really focus in our state, building coalitions throughout the state of Nevada about how we address housing at all levels. And in Nevada, when we talk about affordable housing, it's not just for homelessness. It's not just for low income. It's that first time home buyer. It's for that working family that

wants that opportunity to own a home. It is for senior housing. There's so many things affiliated with it. So my focus has been bringing our coalitions together to focus on all those areas and creating this infrastructure so that when I fight for those federal dollars, that they come into the state of Nevada and help our families. in their homes and help them with rental assistance during the pandemic. And another $600 million that also helps families and help us build that affordable housing in the state. So, yes, it is an important issue for so many families here because I know these families. My family all grew up here and worked in the hospitality industry, and they still do, many of them. And it is important for so many families to have a roof over their head. So that will always be my fight, to make sure they do. There are reports of election workers in your state quitting because of harassment, fears

about what could happen on the election. What is your level of confidence in the integrity in this election that the votes will be counted and rightfully attributed here? Well, let me just say a couple of things. One, I know as a former attorney general that our elections here are safe and secure, and there is no wholesale fraud. I mean, I can tell you as eight years as the attorney general who was part of a strike force with the Secretary of State and FBIbi every election year that uh i and we would look for that fraud whether it was registration

or voter fraud i can count on on two hands how much there was and we went after it and prosecuted and let me just say this because my opponent adam was going to say general after me should know that as well right because he would be part of that election task force. And you can ask him how much wholesale fraud was there when you were attorney general that you were prosecuted. Because I don't remember seeing or hearing wholesale fraud during the time that he was attorney general. However, it's very convenient after he steps down and he loses a race for governor in this state. He chairs now, co-chairs Donald Trump's reelection. And when Donald Trump loses, goes around the state claiming that there was election fraud and that it was stolen from Donald Trump. Here's why this is so scary, I think, nationally, but why it's so

important for people to understand in Nevada. He was the face of that big lie in the state of Nevada, my opponent. And he went around claiming that the election was stolen and he knows better. And he should know better as the former attorney general that there was not wholesale fraud because five litigations, right? They challenged it in court. He led that challenge. And every single court said, no, in the state of Nevada, there was no wholesale fraud. Our Republican secretary of state at the time said, no, there was no wholesale fraud. This election was not stolen. And at the end of the day, he is still peddling these lies. He has gone so far to say that if he loses this election, to me, it's because it's stolen and he's going to investigate. But here's the scary part of all of this.

And this is why this is so important for people to really connect the dots. When you're fueling that big lie, that fuels the mob that we saw on January 6th. The mob that literally overran the Capitol under the guise, under the misinformation and this big lie that was somehow stolen, and we know it wasn't. Let me just say, people lost their lives that day. Law enforcement was attacked that day. I was there. To this day, my opponent who fueled that mob has not condemned what happened there, has not stood up for those law enforcement officers who stood guard, and he's still peddling those big lies. It is dangerous for our democracy. It is

dangerous for our future. And right now, the strongest thing that I know to do to stand up against it is run against people like this who want to undermine that democracy and call them out because people need to know absolutely who is going to peddle some big lying conspiracy for their own political gain and their own power. And we do not need those people, not just running in Nevada, but across this country. Senator Masto, that is a great place to end. But before I let you go, please tell our listeners who want to make sure that you win and this big lie pushing Trumpist does not win. How can they help your campaign in these final days here? Dan, thank you. So we're, please, if you want to help us out, and this is a place to do it, these races are always close. You can come in and help us.

This is our ground game now. You can reach out to katherinecortesmasto.com. You can come in. We'll put you on canvassing and knocking on doors, or we'll put you in phone banking, whatever it is. But this is our moment. This is our moment. This is when, this is our strength. We've got to talk to our voters, make sure they know that it is time to get out and vote. Early voting is happening right now, and that will go on until

November 4th. So this is our moment to talk to our voters. So if you want to come out and help, CatherineCortezMasto.com, and we'll put you to work. Senator, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck out there. And we hope to celebrate your victory in just a couple of weeks. I look forward to it, Dan. Thank you. My guest today is the former Oregon State House Speaker and candidate for Governor Tina Kotick. Tina, welcome to the pod. Thank you for having me. Thank you for doing this. Let's just start with sort of some general background on the race. Your campaign, your race is different than most others this year because there is this third party candidate in the mix that's making things kind of complicated. Can you give listeners a bit of a lay of the land

about who's running, what's at stake. And I'm also interested in where some huge sums of money are, is coming from to some of your opponents. Oh, I would be happy to give you the lay of the land. Thanks for the question. So we are unique. We have a term limited governor. This is the biggest governor's race we've had in a long time. And there are three well-funded women running against each other's couple, smaller party candidates. But the three of us are former legislators. I was a former speaker. There's a Republican who came out in the primary, who is, her name is Christine Drazen. And then there is an unaffiliated candidate. And I say that specifically because in Oregon, there's actually

an independent party of Oregon. She's unaffiliated. Senator Betsy Johnson, she was a Republican, became a Democrat, was in the legislature for 20 years. And then at the end of last year said, I'm out. Don't want to be in the party. I'm going to run as an unaffiliated candidate. And she comes from money, but is also getting a lot of money from large special interests, including the founder of Nike, Phil Knight, who I believe ended up giving her about $3 million. And we have no contribution limits here. So you have experienced folks with money running against each other. And so it doesn't fit the national narrative. This is really a very unique race because of a three-way. Oregon can be very purple.

Our governor's races are always interesting because they're off cycle but this is an incredibly unique race and if i weren't in it i'm sure i'd love to study it but it right now i'm just trying to win so yes we we want you to win what what what's wrong with the nike guy what what crawled up his ass you know for four million dollars well you know he's actually into this election cycle in Oregon for about $7 million. He invested in the unaffiliated candidate, Betsy Johnson, early on, along with all kinds of other special interests like extraction industries, timber, concrete. They're all in for Betsy. She was on TV since March. And then he just switched to give $1 million to the Republican because he knows Betsy, right? She raised, she was on TV since March. And then he just switched to give a million

dollars to the Republican because he knows Betsy can't win. She's now in spoiler category because she just dropped in the polls. So he's now investing in the Republican, but he's also put a whole bunch of money to try to keep the legislatures, both the House and Senate here and our state legislature from staying in democratic control. He's trying to flip the whole state red. I don't know what his problem is. He has said publicly he doesn't like me. I've never met him. I don't, you know, whatever. But all I can say is I stand up for working people. I stand up for fairness. I want a fair tax system. So maybe he just doesn't like that. Man, got a real MyPillowGuy vibe going on here. Stepping back to some broader issues. I mean, I'm not in Oregon, you know way better than I do. Some of the articles I've read said that voters

are concerned about crime, especially in Portland, where there's been an increase in the homicide rate, an increase in drug overdoses. Democrats across the country, regardless of circumstances, are getting attacked as soft on crime. I'm curious how you're pushing back and if there are any lessons that all Democrats can or should learn from your experience. Well, I think it's important for Democrats to talk about public safety and keeping our community safe. I'm pushing back by saying, look, my record's been very clear. In the state legislature, I supported whatever came into my world in terms of funding and policy. So, for example, making sure our state police have been funded, making sure our crime lab has been funded, you know, really core things that the state runs.

You know, policing is mostly a local issue. I believe that we need more law enforcement, particularly in Portland. We're very short staffed. I've also supported crisis response. enforcement particularly in Portland. We're very short staffed. I've also supported crisis response. But getting back to the bigger issue, I've never seen the wrong track, right track numbers so bad in Oregon, right? People are angry. They have reason to be angry. We just went through two years of hell. Crime is up. Livability feels bad. We got people living everywhere on the streets here in our major cities. That has to change. And what I've said to people is i'm with you i'm mad that's

why i got in this race we can fix these problems we don't have to go down some right-wing track that these other two conservative candidates are offering you that is the wrong direction you want to fix things let's keep our values and fix things and that i think is the crux of the race right now yeah um one interesting thing i noticed was that in 2021, Oregon decriminalized possession of small amounts of a number of drugs, including some hard drugs, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine. Now you basically get fined instead of going to jail. Oregon also increased access to addiction treatment and other health services associated with that change. Just to like put my personal cards on the table here. I think American drug laws are crazy.

They have a racist history. I think that treating addiction like a criminal issue doesn't solve addiction and only leads to mass incarceration. So I like fully support any creative efforts to change our drug laws. But the challenge is obviously that treatment services take a long time to show an impact. Meanwhile, citizens might get frustrated when they see, I don't know, open drug use in cities or maybe they just don't feel safe. I was wondering how you message those kinds of policy changes to voters and convince them that there is potentially a long term benefit, even if they're dealing with acute short term challenges. Very good question. Well, our recent polling is showing that Oregonians support what they did at the ballot in 2020. There was a ballot measure that said, instead of cycling people through jail, let's get

them into treatment and also take a good chunk of marijuana revenue, because we have legal recreational use here, put it towards addiction treatment programs. And they still support that. What they're frustrated with, which I'm frustrated is, the implementation has been very bumpy. Some people are getting more help. There are more providers, but it's not where it needs to be. I mean, the state took nine months to get the contracts out. Governor Brown, very absent on this topic. We should be moving with more urgency. We have an epidemic on our hands in Oregon and other states as well, right?

Meth, fentanyl, it's really bad right now. And we need to make sure people don't get into recovery. So my job as governor is to follow the promise that voters wanted when they passed this measure back in 20, make it work. My opponents just want to throw in the towel and say, we should send it back to the voters. Or I'm like, they don't even have the guts to say they want to fix it. They just want to send it back to the voters. That's going to take years. And right now people need help. So let's make what we have work. And it does need to be, I think the connection between law enforcement can be

stronger where that handoff to a treatment hotline is much more clear and getting people into the services they need. And that is where we should spend our time and energy. That's why I'm that's what I'm saying. Voters said fix it. We're trying to fix it. That's why I want to, you know, go that direction. Yeah, I mean, look, I feel like at this point, everybody knows someone who's had addiction issues or gone through treatment. I mean, I think like, we can find some empathy here for other human beings. The other broader debate you're seeing in politics is how much should Democrats be talking about the economy and inflation versus, you know, the extremism of the Republican Party

and specifically Republican efforts to restrict abortion access? Just wondering what arguments resonate when you're on the trail, when you're talking to voters, like what did they come up to you and talk about and what do they want to hear? Well, I've just been on the out in in the road, uh, on my working families tour, because I'm the only candidate that has stood up for our working families for 20 plus years. I got into this work saying, how do we help people put food on the table? How do we reduce their healthcare costs and their childcare costs and their housing costs? So they can have economic stability and self-sufficiency. And my opponents have, you know, the Republican

voted against the middle-class tax cut. She doesn't, she doesn't like any of the housing work to keep people housed. Senator Johnson comes from money. So you see folks that just aren't really in tune with what average Oregonians are dealing with right now. And so I've been talking a lot about that with folks, had some great conversations about childcare costs. So very like digging into like, I'm going to be on your side. I've worked on these issues. We have to make sure people have what they need. And to the extremism argument, this really does go to where Christine Drazen is. The Republicans like, I have a new vision or I'm going to bring a new organ or new direction. That is just right to the right you know it's like i want to undo environmental

regulations i want to ban abortion um she's hanging out with folks who went to the january 6th insurrection she is extreme and wrong for oregon she's okay with the q anon candidate running against u.s senator ron wyden she's like well you know she's a republican well she's showing her cards this is not trump country but that's where she's coming from. So on the one hand, it's like, who's going to be with you? And do you really want that? Really? Do you really want that?

So, I mean, those are the actual conversations I'm having with people every day now between now and election day. So for listeners who maybe haven't been paying attention to this race, they just heard you describe your opponent. That sounds a little scary. They're not necessarily cool with a sneaker billionaire buying your election or any other. How can they help out? Where should they go?

Love the question. Well, check out my website, Tina4Oregon.com. You can volunteer. If you're living in Oregon, we have plenty of things for you to do. If you live outside of Oregon, you can still phone bank. If you can send a little money our way, we are still making sure we can communicate with voters to make sure they understand the importance of this race. And because there is a lot at stake. I'm hanging out tonight with some students at Oregon State University. I was just at University

of Oregon today. They get it. This is about, will there be a planet 50 years from now? Will they still be able to control their own bodies and their access to healthcare? These are core, core issues for our younger voters. And they have been very excited about my race. So I need people to do what they can. Volunteer, sign up, give what you can, tell all your friends. If you have any friends in Oregon, oh my gosh, tell them not to vote for Betsy Johnson. A vote for Betsy Johnson, the unaffiliated candidate, is a vote for the Republican right now. Please don't do that.

It's a good note. Don't do that. It's too important. Let's not mess around with third party candidates. We've made that mistake a few times before. Tina Kotek, thank you so much for doing the show. Best of luck out there. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. See you on the trail. Take care. much for doing the show best of luck out there i really appreciate it thank you see you on the trail take care all right before we go we have one more very special guest for you all um in the last couple weeks we've talked to barack obama aoc and today in his first sit-down interview since starring in Taylor Swift's anti-hero video, which has racked up 35 million views in six days, comedian, actor, friend of the pod, Mike Birbiglia, his new Broadway show, The Old Man in the Pool, opens up tomorrow, I think, right? Tomorrow. It's tomorrow. Breaking news. Breaking news.

Mike, welcome back to the pod oh my gosh this is it's all full circle you know because we were together in dc when i was touring this show old man in the pool we did the pod there uh and then now it's on broadway the same week that this, yeah, this mega video came out. And my, okay, so here's what I wrote down. My message for the listeners is the checklist is vote. Bring your friends to vote. Plan a trip to New York to see the old man in the pool. That's perfect.

All right. So we are big fans of Taylor Swift at Pod Save America. Emily Favreau and Hannah Vitor are super fans, to put it mildly. You are now our closest connection to Taylor Swift. I have one of her biggest fans here right now. Hi, Mike. Oh, my gosh. I'm very starstruck to be around you, honestly.

I just really need to understand exactly how this all went down. Okay. First of all, I saw the tweet of your son wearing the sweater that my character Preston wears in the video. It's a lot to unpack. It's a lot to unpack. John has never loved that sweater. And frankly, I understand. It was sort of a bit I was doing with myself.

But it was an uncanny resemblance. My only goal is for Charlie not to become a Preston, but anyway. Yeah, I wonder if it's an Emily John Easter egg. Oh, my God, and I don't even know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That would be very funny. But yeah, it's funny because everything in her universe is mega. I've never experienced anything like it.

And so everything that I say about her or the video or whatever is so amplified that I have to be very precise about what I say. So I'll repeat what she said on Fallon the other night. Smart. Honestly, good tactic. Yeah. Yeah. Good tactic. Yeah.

Yeah. Like I'm literally, and this is, this goes into John's field of politics, which is like, sometimes do you have to take cues from the people who are the megas in the space and then go, well, if they said it, I can say. Right. That's basically what you have to do. You have talking points that have been approved by Taylor Swift. But yeah. And it's only, it's only approved just by literally watching it and go, oh, okay, I guess. So what you're saying is you're not like on a text chain

with her where you're like, hey, I'm going on Jon Favreau's podcast. And she's like, oh, I know Emily. That didn't happen. Okay. That definitely didn't. But, but so basically we were, you know, we're, we know each other. We met socially a few times through Jack Antonoff, We were, you know, we know each other. We met socially a few times through Jack Antonoff, who's like longtime friend, like I've known for a million years. He did the music for my podcast, Working It Out. He did the music for my last show, The New One,

which you guys saw. Like he- Oh, we saw that. Yeah, there's a Bleacher song in that at the end. And then our minutiae old man in the pool has a Red Hearthse song which if you haven't heard his his side project with soundwave and sam do oh yeah also who also work on a lot of taylor's stuff actually um that red hearse album is astonishingly good so jack so jack's an old

friend and he introduced me you know through jimmy and and um and margaret me, you know, through Jimmy and Margaret. And, you know, and we, yeah, we just hit it off. And then apparently I learned on Jimmy Fallon's show that's when she cast me for her video. I had no idea. That's so cool. So what was it like working with her? What is she like? Give us, I mean, I don't know how much you can say, but. She is, no, no.

I mean, look, she is, is obviously in her music she's a visionary she uh she's executing something entirely singular i feel like my experience with her as a director is the same it's like she literally like asked me over text like i got you know hey it's taylor and i don't even know if it is like i don't have her number it's just like a not whatever number I don't someone's number hey it's Taylor I'm like okay like I might be getting catfished by Taylor Swift or you know by who you know because she's texting like the script I have this I wrote the script and I think that you could be good in the thing and so I'm like it's either Taylor Swift texting me either Taylor Swift texting me or I'm being catfished by an excellent writer. Yeah.

And so either way, I'm going to take a swing for it. And so I just go, I'm in. And then it was all just, I mean, what's funny is like, yeah, everything's just in that universe. Everything's locked down. It's just like totally a secret and like all this stuff and and uh it's fun it's funny because i yeah at certain points like i as like a gift when i shot it like they i they gave me some like sweatshirts and stuff like i had like these like red like the

red tour like sweatpants like and i was wearing all the red tour merch yeah so like i was like wearing them at like an exercise uh uh class or whatever and the instructor was like so did you go to the tour and i was like no she's like why do you have the sweatpants and then i was well i don't know i don't know where these came from you know like literally like it was like keeping secrets is not my forte i'll say that emily if emily got a text from taylor swift you might you would pass out i honestly i can't even have this conversation on the pod because like i'm trying to play it cool in case i ever do meet her i don't want to be like a super fan yeah it is that is very very cool but the mike berbiglia taylor swift universe for me and John is really full circle.

You should tell that story. Yeah, no. I need to go watch Our Child, but I'm so honored to be in your presence. Can't wait to have a drink. Not recorded. I can't wait for you to come to New York and see the show, Emily. We have to. We have to.

No, speaking of Our Child, it's funny because, and I've told you this before, we watched the new one for the first time the night that we found out Emily was pregnant, which was a surprise. And I was terrified. And then I watched your show and it was hilarious, but terrified me even more. Yeah, the new one definitely does both things. It's on Netflix and people haven't seen it, but it's all about how I never wanted to have a child

and then how I had a child and then I was right and then I was wrong. And so it shows all sides of wanting to have a child versus not wanting to have a child. And holy cow, but John, I got to say, you got a lot of fun in store with when Una's age seven right now. It's the greatest thing I've heard. I mean, Charlie's age two and a couple months right now, and it's amazing. So, like, the first six months were rough.

Now I'm totally in. But the night that Emily, we found out she was pregnant, we watched you. And then the night that Emily was in labor with Charlie is when Folklore came out. It was just announced as a surprise. And so Emily got to listen to it when Charlie was born. So like really now you and Taylor Swift are like the bookends to sort of Charlie's, the pregnancy that gave us Charlie. Yeah, age seven is unbelievable. It's like the other day she goes, Dad you have yellow teeth and i go well i'm working

on it you know and then she picks up her cat puppet cat meow meow meow meow goes those are the yellowest teeth i've ever seen and i'm like now i'm trying not to laugh because it's like i love that un is funny but i don't want her to be an insult comic and a ventriloquist i love that well everyone should go see um the old man in the pool because you are hilarious you did our our dc psa show uh live and it was i think like one of the all-time funniest segments on pod save america ever ever it was so funny that wrestling story the wrestling story i told in the episode is, a longer version is in the show, actually. Oh, that's perfect. All right, well, everyone go see that show

and then put us all on a text chain with Taylor and we'll figure it out from there. Wait a minute, what? No! Thanks, John. Thanks, Emily. This is so fun. Thanks, Mike.

Take care. All right, that's our show for today. Thanks to Catherine Cortez Masto, Tina Kotek, and Mike Birbiglia for joining. Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show.

Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash Pod Save America.