Pod Save America - "Fighting Back Post-Roe."

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Hysteria host Erin Ryan joins the pod to discuss the political fight to restore abortion access in America, and how Democrats should confront the activist Supreme Court. Then later, Amy Hagstrom Miller from Whole Woman’s Health talks about how abortion providers will continue to serve patients among a challenging patchwork of state laws. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.  

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Erin Ryan. Hey, Erin. Hi. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Erin Ryan. Hey, Erin. Hi. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm back from vacation. And Erin's with us. Yeah, I'm here.

The host of Hysteria. Yeah. Yeah, I'm here. Wish it could be under better circumstances. Is it ever under good circumstances? No, it's not. I think it's just good. Now you get next piece of good news

you're coming on I mean you and I got to host when they were sick that was a good time thank you for getting sick you and I hosted together when I had COVID not together but you know

together separately but yeah never great I remember the Kavanaugh hearings you and great I remember the the Kavanaugh hearings were going on yeah you and Dan and I did the Kavanaugh hearings together

that was another one sometimes we've had fun on the road that's true we had a good time we went to Wisconsin that was fun that was early on

in our time together that was remember when we ate that pile of fried foods in San Francisco it was I remember that episode was about Rex Tillerson

joining the resistance Rex Tillerson joining the resistance. Rex Tillerson. Fired on the toilet. What a name. All right. On today's show, the Supreme Court's radical right-wing majority strikes down the constitutional right to an abortion in America. The fight to protect reproductive rights moves to the states.

And the founder of Whole Woman's Health, Amy Hagstrom Miller, will talk about how her organization intends to provide abortion care in a post-Roe America. But first, a few housekeeping notes. Crooked Media's editor-in-chief and host of Rubicon, Brian Boitler, is back with a new podcast, Positively Dreadful, that takes listeners below the headlines of the stories stirring anxiety in today's news landscape. In the first episode, Brian is joined by U.S. Representative Jamie Raskin to talk about how personal loss and the insurrection changed him and how we can still balance realism with hope today. Very well-timed.

Very well-timed. Episode, by the way. Emotional and poignant. This is a great series for Brian. A great title for Brian, Positively Dreadful. It just, it fits. You should go listen to it. You should.

And the first episode is fantastic. You can listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever. Also on Strict Scrutiny this week, Leah, Melissa, and Kate continue their analysis on last week's Dobbs decision. Plus, they break down the consequential opinions getting overlooked as we speed toward the end of June. Listen to new episodes of Strict Scrutiny

wherever you get your podcasts. All right, let's get to the awful news. On Friday, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, ending the constitutional right to an abortion and jeopardizing the health and lives of millions. Justice Sam Alito wrote the 6-3 decision, which was mostly unchanged from the leaked draft that we saw in May, ruling that, quote, it is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives. The three liberal justices dissent called it, quote, a catastrophic decision that, quote, undermines the legitimacy of the court, consigns women to second class citizenship, and means that young women will come of age with fewer rights than their mothers and grandmothers had. Lots to talk about. Let's start with the decision itself. Erin,

as someone who has been warning about this for years now, what was your reaction to the ruling? You know, I was actually kind of numb. I think that the soft launch that they did of the leaked opinion kind of took off some of the sting. I knew it was coming. It was really dismaying that it was pretty much exactly what was leaked, which was crazy, like objectively insane. But I also thought, you know, after I went and ate a donut slowly and methodically, I thought about all the people that I'm disappointed in. Like Sam Alito has always been nuts.

You know, all of those, Clarence Thomas has always been nuts. The three Trump appointed justices were appointed due to being nuts. You know, all of those, Clarence Thomas has always been nuts. The three Trump appointed justices were appointed due to being nuts. And so I didn't really expect anything from them. But the thing that I felt was very taken advantage of as a young woman who has been outspoken in support of Democrats and Democratic candidates. I felt very much like every election cycle, there is this urgency in getting us to show up and vote and mobilize and phone bank and, you know, put cute stickers on our tote bags and all that. And, you know, and for the most part, in the last few elections, young women have. And then once Democrats have control of, you know, the Senate,

the House and the White House, our objectives are moved down to the very bottom of the list. You know, the abortion thing should have been codified into law under President Biden. The fact that it wasn't is ridiculous. The fact that we have enough Democrats who care more about the filibuster than they do about female bodily autonomy or women's bodily autonomy or abortion rights is egregious. And every day or every email I got that day that was like, you got to keep me in the Senate. Can you chip in $15? It was like, fuck you. I fucked you to every single email that I got harder and harder throughout the day. And I couldn't even look at my inbox by the end of the day. I felt like I

expected this to happen, but I didn't expect Democrats to fail as hard as they did. Can I ask, because my rage is towards specifically Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, because I feel like we had, if we had two more Democratic senators who were anti-filibuster and pro-choice, basically we need 50 Democratic senators who are anti-filibuster and pro-choice. We have 50 who are pro-choice. We have 48 who are anti-filibuster on pro-choice. We have 50 who are pro-choice. We have 48 who are anti-filibuster on the Voting Rights Act. We haven't canvassed the rest of them on getting rid of the filibuster to codify Roe, though someone should. Then we'd have every Democrat in the House or a majority of Democrats in the House, and Joe Biden would have signed it into law, and we would have it.

So I feel like my specific rage is directed towards those two. But I don't know if like could what what could other Democrats do you think elected Democrats have done should have done? Well, you know, that's a really loaded question. And it goes back to Monday morning quarterbacking several Mondays ago. You know, how were campaigns run in 2020? You know, what seats did we take for granted as being wins? Like Susan Collins' seat. When she was up for reelection, it was like, oh, yeah, we're going to win Susan Collins' seat. All this money poured into it. And, you know, she won bigly.

There's a bunch of ways that I feel like 2020 was mismanaged and didn't go as well for Democrats as it should have gone. So, I mean, yeah, you play with the team you have and the team we have has like two real stinkers on it. Real stinkers. But also, you know, I wish that we would have done a better job in the draft. That's a sports. I like that. Yeah. I wish we would have drafted better. That's all. I wish we had a better draft, a better bench. I wish that we had planned better for the fact that this is something that they've been gunning for for 40 years. And this is something that was eventually going to happen. Yeah. We played the long game. So the dissenting justices also wrote that, quote, no one should be confident that this majority is done with its work and warned that

additional constitutional rights are under threat, such as the right to contraception, same-sex marriage, even same-sex intercourse. Lovett, what's their reasoning there? Intercourse, John. You know, same-sex sex is a weird thing to say, so I couldn't know what else to say there. So there have already been a set of uh i have some options for you there's already been a set of the same kind of people that told everyone not to worry about roe or

hard at work telling people not to worry about contraception not to worry about marriage equality not to worry about lawrence and they point to the majority ruling itself which says the exercise of the rights at issue in Griswold, et cetera, et cetera, does not destroy a potential life, but an abortion has that effect. And then they go on to say nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion. Thomas, who is just because he's the most radical is five years ahead of them, says the court's abortion cases are unique and no party has asked us to decide whether our entire 14th Amendment jurisprudence must be preserved or revised. Thus, I agree that nothing in the court's opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents, etc. But he then says explicitly in future cases, we should reconsider Griswold, Lawrence or Bergefeld because any substantive due process decision is demonstrably erroneous. They have a duty to correct the error established in those precedents. So what he is saying is that the overruling of Roe cast doubt on a host of freedoms about how we live, how we form families, who we sleep with, who we love, how we raise our children.

And I've seen a lot of coverage that has focused that on marriage equality or referred to it in an anodyne way as gay rights. In the same way that there were trigger laws on the books waiting for this moment, currently in more than a dozen states, there are laws on the books that ban gay sex, that ban sodomy, which actually goes on to include a lot of what you people do. It doesn't reproduce, is all I'll say. Non-reproductive. Intercourse. Intercourse. How about that? Hands up? Sure. Non-reproductive. Intercourse. How about that? Hand stuff? Sure.

I don't know how specific it gets. I don't know if hand stuff starts. Hand stuff. Somebody should pose this very question. Listen, a strict scrutiny for the legal debates. This is what you get here. I'm sorry. This is what you get here is hand stuff. According to the Republican Party,

there's only one thing you can do with your hand and it's pull a trigger. Oh, man. I started this. I apologize. But the point is, it is true that many of these laws target straight people. They just broadly target what they're calling what we call what they used to call sodomy. But it would be used to target gay people. The Republicans are already getting more and more aggressive in their anti-gay, anti-trans rhetoric. We will absolutely be back in the days where cops and right-wing politicians would basically threaten and harass and arrest gay people. It will happen again. That is where they want us to go. Remind everybody that the Stonewall riots happened because cops were harassing gay people for the sin of gathering

in public. And it was the harassment by cops that led famously to a very hot white twink to throwing the first brick at Stonewall. I'm glad to know that he was hot. That's the history. I feel like that's a reference. Like a movie or something? What are you talking about? Yes, it was not thrown.

Well, according to... It was a hot white twink. There was no hot white twink. It was a made up character. Like Jesus. Oh, right. Jesus was not a hot white twink. It was a made up character. Like Jesus. Oh, right. Jesus was not a hot white twink. I'm bringing this back here now.

What do we got here? Marsha P. Johnson. So we should be, your point is. I was like, am I, have I lost my mind? No.

Marsha P. Johnson was like a formidable black drag queen. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Right on. Movie version. The point is. So your point is. Like the Passion of the Christ. They're coming. Okay. Yeah. Right on. Movie version.

The point is. So your point is. Like the passion of Christ. They're coming. They're coming. They're coming for these rights. And anyone who says otherwise is not paying attention. Yeah.

I thought the dissent was very powerful. I wish I could read it. You know, they also mentioned that the argument from Alito and the majority there is like, well, we don't want the court to be deciding these issues. Let's send it to the states. But the dissenters also said, look, the ruling is now going to force the court to weigh in on issues like whether states must allow exceptions for women's life and health, on whether they must allow IVF or care for miscarriages, and whether states could stop women from traveling out of state or receiving abortion medication by mail. So this whole thing where they're like, oh, yeah, we've settled on this issue now. It's got to keep it out of the courts, bring it back to the States. That's not the case at all. Here's a little Aaron, your version of

like being mad at Democrats the day the ruling came out. My version was being really mad at the DC civility police because they expect us to believe that these judges are nonpartisan, that they're calling balls and strikes, that their legitimacy is based on our agreeing to these terms that they put forward. When these people are liars, they lie at confirmation hearings. One of the seats was stolen by Mitch McConnell and they release opinions that are wholly inconsistent legally with each other. And they treat originalism as this tactic they use just to cherry pick laws that make the right wing happy. And the only thing protecting this chorus of people and their bullshit is the people in D.C. who dine at Cafe Milano and expect us to believe this little fiction, this little tale they tell each other.

Yeah, it's it seemed to me like Alito's reasoning that, oh, well, women can simply vote. You know, like, look, if you you want it was such and it also was like it was like a fucked up nathan for you sketch you know where it's like well what we want is for people to be able to make decisions about what happens in their bodies and then it's just like way overly complicated and cruel and evil rather than like funny and cool yeah they want women to vote uh in the gerrymandered districts that they allow. I did think to your point, Tommy, too, that one notable line from the dissent is when they argue that, quote, the majority overruled Roe and Casey for one and only one reason, because it has always despised them and now it has the votes to discard them.

And the only thing that changed is the composition of this court absolutely i thought that that was a a pretty big sign that the liberal justices are basically saying this court is fucking politicized so all the institutionalists all the civility police everyone who's like worried about you know the the institutions of the court here you have three justices on the supreme court that are basically like this is an entirely politicized decision yeah in a joint statement, which is rare. Right. The court's decision had immediate consequences for reproductive health care in states all across the country. Tommy, what do we know about those consequences? Which states have been most affected? What's happening in some of those states?

The short answer is it's kind of like legal chaos out there. I mean, there's all kinds of laws taking effect at different times in different states, coupled by a race to the bottom from Republican legislators or lawmakers to restrict abortion rights even further. And so, you know, the immediate impact was in the 13 states that have trigger bans in place. Immediate means different things in different places like Kentucky, Louisiana, South Dakota. I think those bans go into immediate effect. Other states require certification from somebody like an attorney general. Some states have like a 30 day delay, but I think they're trying to speed that up. A bunch more states, Iowa, Indiana, Georgia, others will likely ban abortion in the near

future. A bunch of states have pre-row laws on the, like West Virginia, I think has a law from 1800 banning abortion that will now, I guess, have to be applied in some way. Florida has passed a 15-week abortion ban. Republicans are calling on Ron DeSantis to come back to do a special session to pass a six-week ban. So it's a disaster out there. And we try to follow these events and laws for a living, and it's incredibly complicated

and hard to keep a handle on. I can't imagine being a woman in an incredibly dire situation trying to get health care, trying to get an abortion and trying to figure out where to go. The flip side, the only good news is that 16 states and I think the District of Columbia have passed laws codifying the right to an abortion. California passed a law today that will create a that will then create a referendum that we can vote on to create a constitutional amendment enshrining the right. But it's very bad in an immediate impact. Erin, what are some of the challenges facing states where abortion is still legal? Well, Tommy mentioned California. And just this year, I think there's been more than 10,000 extra people coming from different states in the country to try to get abortion care here because it's more difficult where they came from. Texas, a lot of people are coming from Texas.

People who live in California who need abortion care are going to face longer times. They're going to have a more difficult time accessing like a later term abortion. But, you know, it's basically the number of providers is not like magically increasing in these places that now are going to see an influx of people coming to receive abortion care. And so that's a big issue. I did want to point out something. Do you guys remember back in early COVID when California, Washington, and Oregon were like, we are the West. Yeah. Yeah.

They're doing it again with abortion stuff. So I believe that it's not going to be as chaotic now. So, you know, it has been a little bit chaotic with people from Texas and people from other states trying to come to California, for example. It seems now that governors Inslee Brown and Newsom are going to work together to try to coordinate and make it a place where people can come and get abortions on the West Coast. I do think we're going to get an EPA ruling in the next day or two, probably. And whatever they do, similarly, the question about how to protect the environment is going to fall to the states. Similarly, the question about how to protect the environment is going to fall to the states. And as the federal government abandons its basic responsibilities to protect people, protect their rights, it's going to be up to democratic governments, to governors to work together and represent the majority. They represent the majority of this country. They represent the majority of our GDP. The majority of the people to figure out like new legal regimes to protect people in a coordinated way.

Yeah. I mean, you talk about legal chaos also in these places where abortion has trigger laws. It's causing confusion among patients. So like Louisiana had a trigger law that was supposed to go in the books, but it has been paused because a suit was filed, I believe, by the Center for Reproductive Rights. And they basically said you have to wait. Abortion care needs to resume in Louisiana. I think in Idaho, they're doing the same thing. Utah, they're doing the same thing. It's become a total nightmare, like patchwork quilt of state constitutional clauses and laws that are archaic that might be now outdated. And when do these things expire? And it is such a morass. I don't envy people

trying to wade through all of it. No. Yeah. And I think the dissent made that point too, that just because the court averts its eyes from the suffering that will follow doesn't mean the suffering does not exist right now. Even John Roberts tried to make this point, which is there was a narrower path they could have taken. They leave up the 15 week ban and not throw the country into chaos. He's of course the chief justice in name only at this point. He couldn't get anyone

to follow his path forward. But yeah. Yeah. And Sam Alito took a shot at him too in his opinion. What an asshole. He is such an asshole. What a vicious prick.

Just absolute dick. All right. Let's talk about where we go from here. And maybe we can break this into short term, medium term, long term solutions. Erin, in the short term, what can President Biden and the federal government do without Congress? And do we think anything can get done with Congress? That's a good question. I think that things are more likely to get done with Congress now when it comes to codifying Roe than it was, you know, three months ago before we saw this lunatic draft. I still don't think it's going to happen. And I hate the notion that it just I just need to wait for one more election for this to actually get pulled off because I feel like I've been waiting for one more election for

several election cycles and it's getting to be really tiresome. The president can urge the FDA to make medication abortion available to people who need it. So like telemedicine, it's a safer medicine than aspirin, for example. It's a very safe thing. You can be prescribed it over, you know, like remotely in a lot of places. There are some states that have laws against it. But the Biden administration is trying to make sure that people are able to access medication abortion to the extent that they can. Now, here's the thing about medication abortion, though. It's something that is taken privately.

And a lot of people who need an abortion prefer it because you get to just take it in your house, handle yourself from there. But it doesn't always 100% work. So there is a possibility that you'd have to go in for follow-up care. And it's not clear what states are allowed to do. So in some cases, it could provide very rare. Again, it's a super safe medicine. But medicine. But it's, you know, in some cases people might need follow up care. And that's a little bit murkier when it comes to the law. So right now the president is just doing like investigating what he can do, which I'm a little disappointed in. I kind of wish he was coming out a little bit more strongly about this. One thing that I thought was interesting, Kamala Harris had an interview today on CNN, and she mentioned Build Back Better, some provisions from Build Back Better that won't unfuck what has been fucked, but will make life easier for parents. Like right now, Democrats should strike on paid leave. Paid leave. Okay, Republicans, let's call your bluff. Like you want to make it so that people who get pregnant must go through the process of pregnancy and birth. Why not make life easier for parents?

You just want to force them to have birth, but you're not going to do anything for them? I mean, I don't know. It is one of the most outrageous parts of the debate where you see these, now that they've banned this fundamental human right, will Republicans finally step up and help people to make having a child easier? As if for the last four decades, if they really gave a shit about preventing, about helping people who had unwanted pregnancies have a better chance to have a better life for that child, they couldn't have done that this whole fucking time. You have to wait for there to be a gun at people's heads to potentially provide child care.

It is so ludicrous. It is so disgusting. And it is so exposing of how not true anything that they're saying are like, if they cared about the story, they're not going to do it now. They wouldn't do it. Do it. Do it. Then it is just not real.

This is what Peggy Noonan was trying to peddle on Meet the Press over the weekend, which rightly was just mocked. It's like, OK, you worked for Reagan who gutted the social safety net. You cannot come out and say these things with any credibility. Well, and then let's talk about the EPA also. Environmental pollutants are so harmful to pregnant people and children. There have been poisonings or chemicals that have been in the environment that affect people like generations forward. It's not just like, oh, my mom was by some pesticides and so I was born with a birth defect. It's like her grandchildren were born. It's so crazy to me that you would be about protecting the unborn, but actually not protecting the unborn at all.

It's not about saving them from any sort of environmental factor that could make their lives worse it's not about giving them a chance to bond with their parent after they're born it's not about anything but forcing people who can get pregnant mostly women back into this second class citizen status and like it i don't know that i've fully absorbed what that means that like i am now you know there are certain states in this country where there are no exceptions to rape or incest if i were you know in texas visiting and i got raped and i got pregnant i would be obligated to have that person's that is is insane. That is insane. And that is insane that Alito's smug fucking face is able to support this.

I mean. Go vote. Yeah. Well, the Daily did a series of interviews today with abortion care providers about what that first day after the ruling was like. And one woman recounted a conversation she had with a woman whose 14-year-old granddaughter was seeking abortion care after a sexual assault. And she basically had to tell this woman to find a way to travel out of state. I mean, it's a literal nightmare scenario. Yeah. So you mentioned the President Biden, the FDA, Garland announced this, I think,

over the weekend that they're going to try to make abortion medication more accessible. There's been talk that perhaps you can use the power of the federal government to set up abortion clinics on federal lands. That's a possibility. You know, they that obviously is not something that happens immediately because it takes a long time to do that and set them up. immediately because it takes a long time to do that and set them up. And of course, they said that they're concerned that potentially those abortion providers could be prosecuted if the federal lands are in states. This goes back to the legal morass, right? I do think, though, on all of these sort of executive actions, I'm sure that the Biden White House has all their DOJ lawyers and White House lawyers and everyone looking at them. It's like, just try it.

Yes. Like, I know you're worried it's going to get struck down but like and with this court yeah probably but like try it you know try everything you can that's what conservatives in the anti-abortion movement have been doing for 40 years they've been just throwing shit at the wall when i first started covering reproductive rights 10 years ago there were always you know ohio introduces a heartbeat bill i remember that was nuts they had a fetus testify and then the fetus like turned away so they couldn't really see the fetus during the testimony it was it was pretty funny yeah i'll i'll send you info about

that offline it was crazy that a fetus testify and and at the time a six-week abortion ban was like this is nuts yeah there was mississippi trying trying to establish legal personhood for zygotes. And at the time, we were all like, this is nuts. This is even too crazy for Mississippi. But now it's actually a real possibility that personhood status could be granted to fertilize eggs. And it's just the other side tries it and tries it and tries it and tries it and tries it. And I agree with you that we should just start trying shit. I mean, the reason Texas has a bounty law is it's part of this great experimentation they've been doing for years to test the boundaries, to test defenses, to find their ways towards banning abortion.

The other thing that is limiting the power of the federal government here to act without Congress is the Hyde Amendment, which says that the federal government cannot spend money on abortion care. So some proposals like, you know, can the Biden administration help pay for travel for women to go out of state who need abortions, like the Hyde Amendment is preventing that. Now, memorably during the 2020 race, Biden finally changed his position on that and said he's against the Hyde Amendment. The issue there, again, is, say Democrats pass a budget, which you still only need 50 votes for, I don't know if you have Manchin's vote on repealing the Hyde Amendment. So that's a problem. So all the legislative solutions in this Congress, all the Congress solutions, go back to, can you get Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema to be willing to eliminate the filibuster. And if you can't,

Democrats don't have a majority in the Senate, which is the problem. It doesn't do anything to talk about it. It's very frustrating. But does Kyrsten Sinema think that if the Republicans have a 51 seat majority in the Senate and they have the trifecta, they wouldn't eliminate the filibuster on day one to ban abortion nationwide. Does she really believe that they wouldn't do that? Of course they're going to do that. Unbelievable. Yeah. The other action in the short term that we're seeing too is district attorneys in cities like Austin and in places like that who are pledging not to prosecute people who get abortions. Some cities also like Austin and places like that who are pledging not to prosecute people who get abortions.

Some cities also like Austin are trying to deter police from investigating abortion seekers or providers. So there is some action in the short term on a local level. And it's also why these DA races will be fairly important also in November because who your DA is is going to make a difference on prosecutions. Are we going to I am Spartacus this? Are we going to all act real sketchy like we all might be getting abortions and like just flood, flood, flood? Like if we're in a... They can't fight, yeah.

Yeah, if we're like in a jurisdiction where you have an activist DA who's going to charge people for seeking out abortion care, are we going to... I think we should just all pretend... That's a good idea. Like when BTS fans flooded the tip line for election fraud.

Yeah. Shit like that. Yeah, exactly. That's the path forward. Can we somehow get BTS in? I mean, they did just take a break, but maybe we can get their fans involved. Olivia Rodrigo could maybe step in there too. But no, I mean, like, what is this going to mean when you have some fucking crazy DA or

crazy sheriff that starts going after women who had miscarriages? That's already happened. Yeah, that's the other thing. It's already happened. It's already happened. And I think what is going to happen is they're going to keep going after, right now they're just going after the most marginalized people that are the least empowered. And what is going to happen is they're going to keep trying people that have a little bit more power, a little bit more power, a little bit more power to normalize it. And eventually they'll, you know, hit a live wire and there'll be a case that breaks

nationally. I think that people will start to draw lines. Yeah. But I think it's already happening. It's Ohio, Texas, Oklahoma. It's awful. Let's talk medium term. We have a midterm election in November that will decide control of Congress, governorships, state houses, all kinds of state and local offices.

Love it. What's at stake here? And which states will this midterm determine whether or not access to abortion is protected? states will this midterm determine whether or not access to abortion is protected? So first of all, Kansas has a vote on August 2nd on a ballot measure that would reverse a ruling that says abortion access is protected by the state constitution. And so that's coming fast. And that would be the first vote in the country, the first vote on the country on this. In Pennsylvania, it's Josh Shapiro versus Mastriano. The Pennsylvania legislature is Republican. They will outlaw abortion. The Republican wins. The Democrat wins. They will not. Wisconsin, Michigan, those races too. Democrats are bulwark against Republican anti-choice legislatures. Organizers in Michigan are also

trying to get an initiative on the ballot because they have an old law on the books that Whitmer and the Democratic officials in that state are saying they're not going to enforce, but they're trying to get a ballot measure passed so they can amend the constitution so that they don't have to deal with this. And if we lose that governorship, though, they will, of course, ban abortion there too. Yeah. So those are pretty important elections. So AOC tweeted over the weekend that Democratic leaders must give voters a specific plan because honesty and details motivate. Our old boss, David Plouffe, tweeted something similar, saying that the message from the administration needs to be clear, consistent and true.

Tell me, what should Joe Biden, Democratic candidates be saying about abortion between now and November, knowing that there is a lot of frustration out there? Yeah, I mean, look, I agree with Plouffe. AOC had several different, you know, Instagram stories, tweet storms. I think we're spot on on the specificity. Like, obviously, I think elections matter. Voting matters. spot on on the specificity. Like, obviously I think elections matter, voting matters, but I, like, I totally get Aaron why anyone would feel outraged if the first communication they got from a elected official was, Hey, give me 10 bucks. Uh, Hey, this devastating thing happened. Give me 10 bucks. Like that's just so fucking toned up. It's crazy. I do think Biden needs to say, I am committed to passing the women's health protection act. This is the law that would codify row into law and then say, here's how we can do that, right? We need to keep the house and we need to get 50 pro-choice

Democrats in the Senate who are willing to get rid of the filibuster. We talked about this earlier. We don't have the whip count. So hopefully the White House Legislative Affairs Office is working on this right now and they can figure out what that looks like. And then I also think though, Biden should talk about what can be done at the state level, maybe travel to some of these places, go to Michigan, help them get these 400,000 some odd signatures. I'm not sure about the feasibility of like clinics on federal land, but I agree with you, like get caught trying. But I think the broader point is I would like to hear Biden also press the case a little bit that we heard in this dissent and call out the court's bullshit. Again, they are liars. They lied about overturning Roe. They lied about their respect for precedent. One of them is

in a stolen seat. We should not let the DC civility police protect this narrative. It's bullshit. And I think it's also a bigger point he needs to make about the way Republicans are locking in minority rule by refusing to deal with gerrymandering and allowing voter suppression. He should lift up Clarence Thomas's insane dissent. I mean, I think we should make, clearly we should be talking about abortion access and how critical it is and how it's important healthcare for human beings, human right. But also I think make this coalition as wide as possible by talking about these other laws that are at risk now and i think what's not like i do think you know politicians should be specific

about their plans i think we should also be specific about our criticisms um i agree like i get the frustration people feel about like the just vote but i do see like a lot of sort of there's some folks that are painting with a broad brush. There's like all Democrats suck at the circular firing squad. And I think like we end up suppressing our own voters. And I think if you want to call it Nancy Pelosi for supporting Henry Cuellar in a primary against a pro-choice candidate, that's totally reasonable. I've seen a lot of people criticizing Obama for not codifying Roe in 2009. I mean, there were 52 Democrats in the Senate at the time who supported abortion rights,

maybe, so that it wasn't going to pass without someone getting rid of the filibuster. There were something like a quarter of the House Democrats opposed to abortion rights at the time. I'm not saying this to defend Obama. I'm saying like, again, this is sort of why elections matter. We have to win the primaries. We have to make sure that the Democrats in our caucus support abortion rights and that we win these seats against Republicans too. I mean, I wanted to add real quick that I think Biden might not be the messenger for some of this, but I think that it is really important for people who need reproductive care, women, anybody who can get pregnant. I really hope that blue state women understand that this affects them. You know, I've heard so much talk as though this is happening to women and people who can get pregnant in red states. people who can get pregnant in red states. And it is, and they're getting the worst of it,

for sure. The more marginalized you are, the more difficult it's been always to get reproductive care. But also, we all are going to be impacted. This isn't just like a horrible human rights violation that's happening somewhere else, and we're all safe in California you know, California, New York, or, you know, Illinois, whatever, it's going to affect you. And, you know, like we talked about these other, with these other rulings, it's going to affect everyone. And Republicans are going to push for a federal abortion ban. Exactly. They're already talking about it. And it doesn't really matter then where you live. Yeah. Unless you're, you're, you have a mayor or governor who's willing to openly defy the federal government. And it doesn't matter where you live. And I think that that's really important to get messengers out there, maybe female Democrats who remember a time before Roe and are willing to talk about it and willing to talk about what that actually looks like, even though back then there were states where it was legal. were states where it was legal. And again, though, like to avoid this, to avoid the national ban,

like the only route to do this in the system that we have is to elect a pro-choice majority, a real pro-choice majority. And, you know, Tommy talking about the White House, like legislative office has a whip count. They might. We should make it, you know, public, right? Like there's a lot of Democrats running right now, again, for Senate. They're up in tough races. Ask them if they're willing to get rid of the filibuster to pass the, to codify Roe into law. You're doing them a favor. It's a popular position.

Right. Well, some of you know. Is it time for another whip count? Is it time for cricket? Well, I mean, they're going to get asked. They're not going to be able to avoid this question. Anyway, reporters are going to ask them as they should. So they're all going to be on record. I mean, right now we have, you you know john fetterman is the nominee

in pennsylvania uh tough state biden only won it by a little bit he's out there saying yeah if you elect me democratic senator i will get rid of the filibuster to codify roe and tala that's that's one that gets rid of cinema in wisconsin we don't have a nominee yet but all the leading potential nominees for the senate race in Wisconsin, Mandela, Barnes, all of them. They've also said, yeah, I will get rid of the filibuster to codify Roe. That would get rid of Joe Manchin if we keep the rest of the Senate and if we elected the House. But you do have to get like you don't have to fall in love with politicians or fall out of love with politicians. Just get them on the fucking record of what they're going to do when you elect them into the Senate.

And if you have a pro-choice majority that's also an anti-filibuster majority, you're going to codify Roe. Will the Supreme Court then overturn the fucking national law that codifies Roe? Perhaps, then we can figure out what to do next. But like, these are, this is the process. And the other piece of this I would say too is, it's about making sure that the Democrats we put up are Democrats that will help us get this done.

But it's also about what we do between now and November to make that case. I think that involves Democratic leadership keeping us on this topic day after day, week after week, with hard vote after hard vote for Republicans on contraception, on gay rights, on marriage equality, on access to abortion, on access to abortion in case of rape and incest, on action abortion for children who have been abused by their family members. We need to get them on the record over and over again. This should be on everyone's mind as much as possible between now and November. And then that means nationally, we need to be

getting Republicans on the record everywhere we can, anyone up for Congress, anyone up for Senate, do you support a national ban? Some of them will say yes, some of them avoid the question, but either answer is useful to us. And we have to keep on this. And like I there's going to be this pull about like what Joe Biden is focused on. He has to talk about inflation, obviously has to talk about a bunch of different issues. But this is now part of a broad attack on basic human freedom in this country. And it is not necessarily, you know, Joe Biden is the, he's the leader that we have. And he has to take on this moment and understand that like, these are, these are enormous stakes

for people like this. He is a candidate that was elected for a country that was in a state of mourning after a pandemic. I, in the past couple of days, I don't think I've, it has felt like a country in mourning. And he is, he is, he understands how to speak to people's pain in moments like this. And he has to, he has to do that and he has to make that central to his case and, and just keep the country on this for the next couple of months. It's our only hope.

Yeah. There's, there's a lot of, will Republicans pay a price for this? Because you know, the polling shows that most Americans support abortion. It's like Republicans will pay a price if we make them pay a price. Yeah.

Although Mike Pence kind of owned gold, that one i just to to end on maybe or end this portion of the conversation on a higher note is uh pence like a lot of republicans are sort of been hanging back not really crowing about it just doing it in their maybe like crazy channels but pence immediately came out and was like hell hell yeah, federal ban, federal ban. It's so funny to watch that guy just step on a rake every time he's got an opportunity to do something like he could have looked brave and cool during the January 6th hearings. No, missed that opportunity. Did not look brave or cool. He could have just said nothing and just kind of quietly celebrated this victory and quietly voiced his insane views to other people that share those views.

But instead, he made them super public. And now Democrats have rightfully seized on them and been like his top aide. Mark Short said about his comments. Yeah, he said this because this is the man he's always been. He's always been for. And he's like, you know, we know, man. We know this is the guy you've always been ask him about ask him about mulan i have never figured out the mulan well also trump

is reportedly you know worried about the political impact and thinks that some of the six-week bans and other things that are being put in place in states are crazy i mean of course we learned this because he's like saying it to people who then background maggie haberman and ends up watching us trump is directly responsible for this ruling because he put in place three Supreme Court justices who led to this outcome. But yeah, I mean, there is some political hope that this is going to pull some Republicans to a place that is wildly unpopular. Like if Ron DeSantis votes for a six-week abortion ban, that is psychotic. That is fucking crazy. And also, I do think we just need to remind these Republicans like, hey, remember when you guys used to say you didn't want activist judges or like legislating from the bench?

Remember when that was your thing? Now you got Clarence Thomas like coming this close to trying to break up his own marriage. Like he's advocating for legal theories that would ban interracial marriage. Yeah, he didn't mention loving. He left that one off the list. I bet Jenny snuck onto his computer and just deleted that in his draft files. They never talk about it. Just to end on the court, Erin,

the recent rulings on abortion, guns, probably climate, a bunch of other issues have rightfully renewed calls for fundamental reform, whether it's expanding the court or instituting term limits for justices or limiting the court's jurisdiction. What's it going to take to get any of these reforms done? Oh, I mean, I think that a lot of people will have to be hurting all at exactly the same time and be reminded over and over again that the reason that they are hurting is a direct result of things that the Supreme Court did.

You know, if, for example, if Obergefell was overturned, and not that I want that to happen in any way, shape, or form, but the chaos of everybody having to figure out alternative legal arrangements that mimic a marriage but aren't a marriage when they have children. And anything that dials back women's rights this far, I think, also will put us in a position where six, seven months from now, there's going to be a lot of people that are in a really, really bad spot. And it's, I don't know, I hate that it's just like widespread pain. Women are going to die. Women are going to die.

People are going to die. There's going to be increased mortality rates. People are going to die who don't, who aren't even seeking elective abortions. Right. You know, like it's ectopic pregnancy care. It's miscarriage care. It's all kinds of reproductive care.

And yeah, I think maybe when, I don't know. It's a really cynical, sad conclusion. But it's like everything that people have been warned about for years and years by advocates, by activists, by people working on the ground when it comes to reproductive rights, reproductive justice, all of the Cassandra-ing was just ignored for so long. The thing I would say is what I hope people take away from what we're seeing right now is there's no point in which the Republicans are going to wake up. There's no bottom for them. There's no limit for them. We have to take the power back from them. And I think in terms of reforming the court, they set about doing this for 40 years. We have to start now talking about the importance of reforming and changing a Supreme Court to fit a modern, pluralistic, diverse America.

Democracy. And we had to start creating pressure around reforms now. So if this court continues to hand down more and more aggressive, abusive, despicable rulings, we are getting closer and closer to the political coalition we need to make those changes or that the court feels threatened enough to understand that those changes will come if they don't respect the vast majority of this country that does not want to be ruled. majority of this country that does not want to be ruled. You know, Politico did a poll right after the decision about the court. They asked people, would you be in favor of expanding the number of justices on the court? 45% approve, 38% disapprove. That's a plus seven there. And these numbers can move fast, especially on process questions. These aren't like issues like the economy and health care that people have had, you know, strong opinions on forever. This is this is as much as an inside game as it is an outside game, too. This is about pressuring elected Democrats to start coming out in favor of court reform. We started this podcast a couple years ago. We start talking about the filibuster and a small percentage of the Democratic caucus was in favor of getting rid of the filibuster. And then five years later, it's everyone but

Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. And it moved really fast. And the same thing could happen with court reform if we start making that argument now. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, we're in a Democratic doom loop. You know, we have gerrymandered districts leading to right wing reactionary members of Congress and state legislators and senators putting forward, you know, the president who won without the popular vote, putting forward right wing judges who are reducing human rights and making it harder to vote. I mean, this is a dire, dire place to be at the moment. And I do think a sense of urgency starting at the White House is going to be really important when talking about the stakes here. Pundit knows to go to a person who needs a dog the most in a group of people. She does. Very sweet. I wanted to add that it has been, it's been really revealing how few people know very much about the Supreme Court because it's been really revealing how few people know very much about the Supreme Court

because it's very opaque and weird. It's a super weird, super weird institution, and there's so many little intricacies to know about the way that things run. But watching an entire generation, I would say there's a lot of people under 40 who are learning just now that Supreme Court justices have, like like no binding code of ethics like there's absolutely no checks on them the supreme court kind of sucks yeah as it's set up right now and i think that's something that we i say we i'm talking about voters who are you know 45 or under

so that everyone in here is included um Thank you. Especially Tommy. Unbelievable. Elder statesman Tommy Vitor. I mean, on screen. Tommy Vitor. Make the joke good if you're going to interrupt. Come on.

Anyway, Erin. No, I was just going to say, you know, I think a lot of Americans were not familiar with just how stupid the Supreme Court is. And I think that

a more widespread knowledge of that will help institute common sense reforms like term limits. A 10-year term limit, I think that a more widespread knowledge of that will help institute common sense reforms like term limits. A 10-year term limit, I think, would make sense to a lot of people. Binding justices to a code of ethics, 69% of people polled supported that. Nice. Only 15% oppose binding justices to a code of ethics.

So if you have like a Clarence Thomas like leaving his laptop open so that Ginny can like take it. Crazy Ginny. Share email account. Right. There she is again. Right, exactly. Thomas fam at AOL.com or whatever.

They definitely share an email address. 100%. Yeah. But I think that a code of ethics is something that seems very simple. Every other job in the country requires you to behave. The term limits that you just mentioned, that same poll, 62% strongly or somewhat support term limits for justices, only 23% oppose.

That's a pretty big margin. One other thing else I would add is I was thinking about the hearings that we had, both the hearings we've had in the past couple years for Kavanaugh, for Gorsuch, and then for Katonji Brown Jackson. And Republicans in those hearings, they help articulate and enforce a ridiculous judicial philosophy, but nonetheless, when they've all aligned themselves around, that gets them to their logical conclusion that they want. Because in part, because we've been sort of living on these rulings that have been so central to the kind of liberal order that we all believe in, we've talked less about what our undergirding political philosophy is as a movement and more about the outcomes, right? We want to keep Roe. We like Lawrence. We like Obergefell. We're glad

that they ruled that way. But I don't hear Democrats or like Democratic even scholars kind of articulating a pushback against originalism that defends the freedoms that have been enshrined by this court through the 14th Amendment. Like, I just don't hear it. I don't hear them making a case for our worldview outside of the outcomes. And I think we need to start doing that and doing that more. All right. When we come back, we'll have Aaron's interview with Amy Hagstrom Miller of Whole Woman's Health. dropped on Friday morning, abortion facilities across the country were forced to shut their doors immediately, leaving women who had appointments scheduled that very day in a lurch. Now in this new post-Roe era, abortion care providers are working vigorously to fight for

an America where everyone who needs reproductive health care has access to safe and legal abortions no matter where they live. One woman at the forefront of these efforts is President and CEO of Whole Women's Health, Amy Hagstrom Miller. Amy, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. You are very welcome. It's nice to be here. So Amy, can you walk us through what you were doing when you found out officially that the Supreme Court had taken away the constitutional right to an abortion? Yeah, I was actually with my family. You know, we've kind of started this, like, it's almost 10 o'clock on a decision day kind of ritual, the last few decision days. And

ironically, today actually is the sixth anniversary of our win in the Supreme Court in Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt. And so I've come to sort of look at the last couple of weeks of June as this time when life changes. Used to be maybe for the better, now it's for the worse. So we were all kind of, you know, watching and gathered around just sort of waiting. And we did have patients on site in all of our clinics. We have nine clinics in five different states, kind of in two different Americas. So we have clinics in five different states, kind of in two different Americas. So we have clinics in Texas and Indiana, and then we have clinics in Minnesota, Maryland, and Virginia. And so while half of those clinics were worried about needing to cease operations,

the other half are expecting to see more patients and trying to get ready for what that might look like. And so that day was a little of both for us as we talked to the staff. So what actions did you need to take immediately? So when we got the Dobbs decision, we had already spoken with our counsel before that. And if Roe was overturned completely, we knew we needed to stop seeing patients for abortions in Texas because we predicted, which was true, that Ken Paxton would start tweeting right away and try to make the argument that the abortion ban was enforced, that the trigger ban and the criminal abortion ban and all the things were now at play in Texas. Even though legally we don't agree with his interpretation,

we knew that the environment was going to be hostile and we needed to make sure to protect our staff and patients in the short run and had been advised to stop doing abortions. So we had to do that in all four sites. We had to turn patients away. Most of our patients begged us to be put on a waiting list, hoping that we might be able to get an injunction or something in the interim. And then some folks, you know, had us help them figure out how to travel outside the state, which unfortunately we've been doing for almost 10 months now since SBA has been in effect in Texas. We have built a program called the Wayfinder Program, and we have been helping people find their way basically from being denied an abortion in Texas to another state where they can get help. And so that kind of kicked in just

in the present tense and, you know, real life with patients right in front of us at that moment. The Wayfinder program. Can you go a little bit more into detail about how that works? Sure. So we started helping people find their way out of Texas during the COVID EO. And during the COVID EO, so like in 2020, April of 2020, Governor Abbott issued an executive order basically banning abortion and saying that abortion was not essential health care and it used too much PPE, etc. And so he used basically COVID, the pandemic as an excuse to ban abortion. And that worked for about three weeks, actually, until we challenged it and won. But in that three week time period, hundreds of people were denied abortion care services. And so we started to help people migrate from Texas to other places, to our clinics, most specifically, because we were able to just get them in as

quickly as possible. And they didn't have to like, out paperwork again, et cetera. So that's when it started. And then we kind of had to pick it up again when SB8 went into force in Texas last September, which denies people abortions if they're over six weeks into the pregnancy, which is about 80% of the people who come for abortion, especially in Texas, where there's a 24 hour waiting period and all these barriers to even get an appointment for an abortion in the first place, vast majority of our patients are over six weeks. And so initially, we started to refer them to the surrounding states, which I think is really poignant right now after the fall of Roe, right? So we were like, go to Oklahoma, go to New Mexico, go to Louisiana, they're closer. And

within a week of SBA passing, the surrounding states all had either four to six week wait for an abortion. It was just like, it crumbled the whole infrastructure. And I was getting phone calls from people, my friends in the field, uh, in Florida and New York and Michigan, all over the country who were seeing Texas patients. And they had all these questions about, you know, is this aiding and abetting? Can we help people from Texas? Can we not? And I realized we got to see these people.

We got to figure out a way to get them seen because we are experts in Texas law. And we kind of know that Texas's law doesn't extend beyond Texas's borders, right? And so we don't want folks from Texas to be discriminated against when they go and get an abortion in another community. And so we used our abortion fund, the Stigma Really Fund, to help people financially. And then we had staff, and we still have those staff, helping with all of the sort of logistics, which we think of as part of the Wayfinder program. So we've got this whole database of like, what airlines fly from what airports to what airports nonstop, which

airplanes tend to cancel the least, what the best time of day to fly is. We had to build a whole database for folks who've never ever traveled out of the state, you know, so they didn't know all the stuff that many of us may know already about how to fly, what you can carry on, what you can't, what you need for ID, how early to show up. So it's really a wraparound service. And even if we pay for someone's hotel, folks that are economically disadvantaged don't have credit cards and they can't check into the hotel without presenting a card at the time of check-in, which is nuts. And so we would book folks hotel and then we would end up, you know, needing to meet them there to help them check in,

you know, try to facilitate transportation from the airport to the clinic and to the hotel. And then we also did a lot of support of folks who needed to drive. Almost 70% of the patients we see in Texas are parenting already. They're navigating multiple jobs in a pandemic, just like the rest of us. And so childcare is really challenging. Getting time off work was really challenging. So many people just like piled their family into the car and drove all night to get their abortion. And we had folks driving from South Texas to Virginia, driving from Texas to Minnesota. Keep in mind, these are like two, three day drives. They would get the abortion and their kids would be there with them in the car. And then they would just turn around and drive right back

so they could get back to work. These are the things we've been doing with this program, trying to help people with gas cards and food and hotels, and also just get them an appointment as soon as possible, because that's really their primary concern. Once they're turned away for an abortion, they want to know where they can be seen the soonest and how we can help them get there. So Whole Women's Health has also been assisting in providing abortion pills by mail. Can you talk us through how that works? Yeah. So we've also in the same time period launched our virtual care program, thanks to the Biden administration, which relaxed some of the restrictions, which were like not evidence-based restrictions in the first place around abortion pills. They're just like political in nature in

the first place. So it's one of the bright spots, I guess, from the pandemic is that people finally saw that medication abortion is very safe and that, you know, pregnant folks can figure out how to manage that with the support from providers like us. And we were able to provide that for them via telemedicine. And so we have a visit with the patient and kind of go over how everything works, make sure they understand, you know, have their questions answered, they feel supported. And then our provider can call the prescription into an online pharmacy and that pharmacy can mail it to the patient. Now, the patient needs to be in a state where medication abortion by mail and telemedicine is allowed. So of course, that's not allowed in Texas or Louisiana or Mississippi or Indiana, a lot of the places that really need this access, but it is allowed in many other states, about 20.

this access, but it is allowed in many other states, about 20. And so we have launched virtual abortion care services in New Mexico and Minnesota and Illinois and Maryland and Virginia. And we have people coming from those states and also surrounding states. They need to be in the state where telemedicine is allowed for the virtual visit, and they need to receive the pills at an address in that state. And the doctor who's working with them is obviously licensed in that state as well. But it's advanced medicine in lots of areas, you know, access for folks who live in rural communities in lots of different specialties. And so it's perfectly applicable, right, for abortion. And it's allowed us to help folks, not only from Texas, but from lots of other places. choose medication abortion by mail because it's convenient. It's what they prefer. And so I'm glad to see us able to advance something and know that this is going to be a huge option for people in the years and days to come. So Amy, over the last few days, I've seen a lot of viral content

on social media, outraged content about the Dobbs decision. And I think a lot of it is really well-intentioned, but it seems that some of it isn't quite factually accurate. Have you seen anything being shared widely on social media that while it might be well-intentioned actually makes what you're trying to do harder? And is there anything you want to kind of like correct? That's a great question. I really appreciate being asked that question. You know, I see a lot of people getting frustrated at folks who just now woke up or just now realized, right, that this was at issue and people who are surprised. I'll just say I don't find myself mad at those folks. Then I think our movement needs to be welcoming as possible and just like let folks get mad when they get mad and chime in to do something. And now is better than never. And so

I'm, you know, trying to just have that approach of being welcoming to folks. I do think people need to respect the expertise of the abortion providers who are already providing and who already trained. So one thing that's been irritating is, you know, providers who never even cared about abortion before now saying, oh, I want to get trained to do abortions and I want to travel. You know, I think we need to be able to focus on a huge percent of the abortion care workforce that's being left behind right now. There's countless clinics in the states where abortion is banned that are staffed with incredibly talented and dedicated staff and physicians who need support

to relocate or need to figure out how to move those clinics or be able to maintain employment in this postural landscape. And so I know some providers have been a little frustrated that, you know, all of a sudden, you know, an ER doc in, you know, New York is like, oh, maybe I'll start doing abortions now, you know, and I think, you know, there's that kind of feeling of like, hey, you know, we've been here all the time. And, you know, we need your support to be able to continue to do this work. Same with this sort of networks with abortion funds and networks with independent clinics. Like we know how to get people accurate information. We know how to provide practical support and support for the actual abortion.

We've sort of got a lot of these systems built already about how to help people who can't afford abortion or how to help people travel. And so I think, you know, just saying to the folks who are right now offering, you know, their own couches or to give people rides or to start new organizations, I think they need to just look to some of the existing organizations and ask, hey, how could I help? Like you have this expertise, where can I plug in, you know, give me some direction. I think those are a couple of things I would just, you know, say. And I think it's important not to get mad at folks for not, you know, for being naive or coming with an honest, I would really like to help. I would just caution people to move from sort of saviorism or this kind of rescueism to a place of like allyship and trying to support the infrastructure and the expertise that's already here.

And on that note, what do you need right now to keep your doors open? Like what is happening on the ground to keep your doors open? Great question. So we could use support for the Wayfinder program, which people can donate to if they go to Whole Woman's Health Alliance. And whole woman is singular. People sometimes mess that up. So it's wholewomanshealthalliance.org. alliance.org. Also, we are doing our best to relocate some of our clinics, we're going to have to cease operations at some point, probably in Texas. We announced a lawsuit today, it was actually just like half an hour ago. So you guys are like the first people I've talked to since we announced it. We're challenging Paxton's interpretation of the criminal abortion ban in Texas. Our hope is to at least get 60 more days before the trigger ban goes into

effect where, where people in Texas can get some care. But we need to basically pack up the clinics and move elsewhere. And we could use help for those kinds of purposes. We were looking at New Mexico, looking at Illinois. We already have clinics in Minnesota and Virginia and Maryland, but really kind of clinic in a box, right? And then like packing it up into a pod and trying to reopen in a state where we know abortion will be supported and where we can help the people who are going to be displaced from other places. And so that's part of it. And just welcoming, you know, knowing that there'll be clinics.

If you live in a Haven state, there will be people traveling into your state who are only there for abortion services. And so just trying to welcome those folks, you know, help people who may be coming from very different parts of the country with the resources, whether it's gas cards or, you know, help people who may be coming from very different parts of the country with the resources, whether it's gas cards or, you know, the cafes that are pro-choice and progressive and the hotels that are going to be safe for them to stay in. And, you know, we've got, we need more info on those, those kinds of things to add to our database so that we can build good relationships that will be safe and supportive places for our

patients. And one more question before I let you go, and this is something I've genuinely been wondering since Friday. It's like a second tier concern, but what do you think that the losers who spend all day harassing abortion patients outside of your clinic are going to do now? Like what are they going to do all day? You know, that's another great question. I was saying to somebody the other day that I think for a bit, they're going to take this victory lap, you know, but pretty soon after there are going to be 50 states worth of anti-abortion protesters that are focused on the remaining 24, 25 states. So I am concerned that the clinics that are remaining open are going to have increased harassment. I'm concerned that these folks won't be satisfied with this giant win

that they've just had and that they're going to move next to further restricting, right? And they'll use it, they'll have a policy approach, right, through the legislature, but I think they'll also be just crummy to people in the streets. I'm concerned about people being followed and people being harassed or threats being made, et cetera. And so I think here again, it's so important for the majority of people in this country who support access to safe abortion, like the vast majority, right, over 70 percent, need to just let folks know that those folks don't represent them, and that they are a community problem. You know, a lot of times people in abortion care take possession of their protesters, they'll say, like, the clinic's protesters, right, they're not mine. I'm not owning those protesters, they belong to the community,

right. And the community somehow is allowing that dynamic to happen. And I think many of us could stop allowing that, right? Could make it less sort of, oh, of course, that clinic over there has those protesters because that's expected. Why is it expected? It shouldn't be, right? And so just sort of calling on people to make those anti-abortion protesters feel very uncomfortable. Yeah, I've seen some colorful counter protests outside of a clinic in Duluth, Minnesota, which I follow on TikTok. And it is greatly amusing, greatly amusing. And our signs are better than their signs regardless. Absolutely. Well, Amy Hickstrom Miller, thank you so much for the work you do, the work you continue to do. And thank you for joining me today. You're welcome. Thanks so much for having me. All right, before we go, you're scared, you're outraged, you want to take action, you want to do something. Vote Save America has put together a great set of resources. If you go to votesaveamerica.com slash row, you can take action to protect patients, protect abortion access.

There are abortion funds you can donate to. You can also support efforts in the states where abortion is on the ballot in 2022 and help elect pro-choice majorities that we need in Congress, in the states, in local level, all over the place. on the states and local level all over the place. Also, on Tuesday, June 28th, join Aaron and Strict Scrutiny's Leah Littman and our own Shaniqua McClendon and our friends at Sister District for a live virtual event after Roe Reproductive and Civil Rights move to states

where everyone will discuss what this means, what comes next, and how you can help fight back. You can RSVP for that at votesaveamerica.com slash state power. Erin, thanks for joining us on a tough day. I hope something good happens at some point. Speaking of good, there's a secret special January 6th committee hearing tomorrow. And we got to wildly speculate on who the secret guest is.

I heard it's Rudy Giuliani and the Masked Singer. Did you see the Rudy? Mike Pence. I just want to just, the person who gave Rudy Giuliani a very, very soft pat on the back and said, what's up, scumbag?

And got arrested. You're a patriot. Is that what he said? Absolutely. I missed that clip. Yeah, absolutely. Funny quote. And then,

did you see Rudy was like, if I wasn't in such great shape, I would have fallen over? Like, okay. You're in great shape? Drinking shape? What kind of shape are we talking about here? Shape like Droopy the dog.

Well, we'll see you at the hearing. Okay. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producer is Haley Muse. And Olivia Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein. Our producer is Haley Muse, and Olivia Martinez is our associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineer the show. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerrard, Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash crookedmedia.