Pod Save America - “Girlfriend, you are so on.” (Debate recap special!)

Episode Date: June 28, 2019

Twenty Democratic candidates debate over the course of two nights in Miami, and Jon, Jon, Tommy, and Dan break down who helped themselves, who didn’t, and what comes next.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Got all four of us here in Los Angeles to talk about this week's Democratic debate spectacular. Joining us soon, floating into the office, will be Marianne Williamson. I thought she was going to call in from space. Marianne. Unbelievable.

What are you doing? What are we doing? We have a lot to talk about. A few housekeeping items first. Make sure to check out our various funds. The Fuck Jerry Fund. Fuck gerrymandering. Very important.

After the Supreme Court yesterday decided that courts can do nothing about partisan gerrymandering and maps that have been drawn by Republicans to ensure their elections. So you can donate to that fund. We can flip state legislatures all over the country so that Democrats have the power to draw these maps since the Supreme Court has told us to go fuck ourselves. Also, our Unify or Die Fund, which makes sure that whoever the nominee is, whoever comes out of this fucking clown car next year, has enough money to run against Donald Trump who's just amassing

piles and piles of cash all while these Democrats fight each other. Give before you hate your opponent too much. That's exactly right. The hate is simmering now for the other guy.

It's going to go up. The Fuck Jerry Fund is votesaveamerica.com slash gerrymandering and Unify or Die is votesaveamerica.com slash unify. There's also some america dot com slash unify there's also some merch if you like that kind of thing um at store.cricket.com you can buy some t-shirts also

love it or leave it will be live at the improv on july 2nd love it will be joined by emily heller in a special love it and heller fourth of july spectacular is that what you guys are calling it apparently it's gonna be great we're doing some where it's a it's a new format oh wow oh exciting so some of it'll be great some of it will cut so if you want to hear the cut parts go to the fucking improv it's crooked.com slash events yes um make sure you're all caught up on with friends like these this month has been conspiracy month from q anon to witches anna has had a lot of guests on to discuss conspiracy theories and their effects and origins. Check that out. Also, June's entire Crooked miniseries, Pride on Screen, is out now. Hosted by Travelle Anderson, director of culture and entertainment at Out Magazine.

The series looks back at moments in TV and film that changed the course of LGBTQ history. So check that out. That's got to be the end of housekeeping, right? It's got to be the end. There was actually a couple more optional things. I'm skipping over. Skip them. Skipping over because we've got to get to this. All right. Let's start to be the end of housekeeping, right? It's got to be the end. There was actually a couple more optional things. I'm skipping over. Skip them. Skipping over because we've got to get to this.

All right. Let's start with the first debate. John, can I get in here? Can I get in here for a second? You'll get your 90 seconds. You'll get your 90 seconds, John Delaney. I'm sorry. Can I just get in here for a sec?

I just need to get in here for a second to say that I was born on a farm. I was born on a fucking farm. Excuse me, I'm pulling at 1%, but I practiced a hit on someone who's pulling at 15 or higher. You're just going to let me have to do that hit now. I don't care how awkward it sounds. I'm just going to attack the person at the other end of the stage. I dropped a beta blogger into a venti before I got out here and I am fucking pumped all right let's start with the first debate i want to dive into the substance just a bit before we get into individual performances which is the whole purpose of analyzing a debate as we know and i thought that the first topic

where there was an actual debate between the candidates was health care which started when they were asked by the moderators to raise their hands if they were in favor of abolishing private insurance in favor of a government-run plan. The question was a little confusing because Lester Holt said, there's people in the audience and people at home who love their insurance plan, their private insurance plan. Who on stage would replace their private plan with a government-run plan? The first night people seemed to get it.

The second night people had a harder-run plan. The first night, people seemed to get it. The second night, people had a harder time understanding it. But only Elizabeth Warren and Bill de Blasio raised their hand for abolishing private insurance. It's interesting because previously, Warren has talked about and talked about to Tommy here at Pod Save America about how, even though she's on Bernie's Medicare for All bill, she's all about whatever path there is

to get to universal health care she'll'll be for she's leaving options open. But this but she raised her hand on this. So what did you what did you think about that, Dan? I think she has been for Bernie Sanders is Medicare for all plan from the beginning. And she had a choice, which is stand by her original position or look as it look as if she was shifted. And I think she politically did the best. She picked the best option there because her for as much as we talk about Elizabeth Warren has plans. What has fueled her success in recent months is that she has had bold plans and she has been

unafraid. And I think the moment where her campaign really kicked into gear was her student debt elimination plan, which was a point where she said she would go bolder on an issue than even Bernie Sanders. So if she were to walk that back and seem more like a traditional politician here, I think that would be potentially being very damaging. So she decided to own her original position and instead of trying to shift. And while there may be general election consequences for that,

this was the right move to make right here. Were you guys surprised? Like, I didn't think that the argument between the public option folks and the Medicare for all folks was all that strident during either of these nights. I just think that most people were confused. Yeah. You know, like I could kind of follow it most of the time because we've paid a lot of attention to this issue. I don't think most people at home, unless you're an ardent birdie supporter and you've been conditioned to believe that his position in Maximus Medicare for all is the only way to achieve universal care and get people the care they need. I don't know that you came away understanding the contrast. Yeah, it's interesting. Bennett, I think, did the most give the most full throated argument about the political problems and practical problems of going to Medicare for all.

Klobuchar got at it a bit. But then really, I think what what what we have here is a public option being defended defensively by Pete, by Klobuchar, by others, because it's become, I mean, even the New York Times described it as incrementalist. And fine, you can call it incrementalist, but it was only a few short years ago that when it was too radical to pass a Democratic Senate. So, you know, there's this problem in these debates, which is I think those who would, the maximal position is easier to defend politically. It's more fun to defend because it's bolder and there aren't people on that stage with the confidence in their views and the feeling that they have the trust of Democrats enough to tell them something hard or complex. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, I think and this is especially true the second second night. The first night, it all sort of just jumbled, and I think it was very confusing. I think on the second night, the people advocating for public option or Medicare for America or

whatever it may be, I thought made a more compelling case than Bernie did on why you need Medicare for All specifically. Bernie made a great case on healthcare in general and why the system is fucked and why you need to change it. But I think it's incumbent upon Bernie, I guess, because probably some of the other ones who signed on to his bill don't really care if people know that they're on his bill or they're for a public option, to be totally honest. No, they want they want them to think both. They want them to think both. And so the general. Right. And Bernie has had a hard time, I think so far, arguing why it is that you need everyone to transition within four years to a single government run plan versus what Pete said, what some of these other people said, which is, look, everyone in the country would have the option to enroll in Medicare if you want it. And if you don't want it, you can stay in your private insurance. And if you're watching at home, you kind of think like, yeah, that sort of makes sense.

And if you're watching at home, you kind of think like, yeah, that sort of makes sense. Now, there's a really good argument, I think, on the single payer side, why that's not sufficient, why you have a more efficient system if you just make everyone take the leap into single payer. But I don't know that I heard anyone make it over the two nights. No. Yeah, I mean, I heard a lot of arguments that were like, look, we all share the same goal. And I'm sort of agnostic on how we get there. The only person I heard make – Beto O'Rourke made an argument that was specific against getting rid of private insurance by saying some unions had bargained for better health care in lieu of wages. And you want to take that away from them.

I'm not saying that that was compelling, but it was the most specific thing I'd heard maybe against the Bernie position. Yeah, a couple of those folks, maybe not during the debate, but but other times it brought up the union negotiating point which is huge and john delaney who is very annoying the first night overall but he brought up an argument that you'll probably hear again from people which is he's like you talk to hospital administrators and you say under bernie's bill um you're going to get the same reimbursement rate from the government for medicare than you do now for medicare except instead of some of your patients it's going to get the same reimbursement rate from the government for Medicare than you do now for Medicare, except instead of some of your patients, it's going to be all your patients. And what would that do?

He's like, in hospital, administrators everywhere will tell you what we'd have to close down. Yeah, I think Bernie's point would be that highlights the problem, which is with a for-profit health care system. I think here, other than Bernie and Elizabeth Warren, most of these people are full of shit on this issue. Let's just be totally honest. All the senators who are running for president, as soon as they thought they might run for president and signed on to Bernie's bill, they didn't care what it said. They didn't care about the transition period. They just wanted to be able to tell voters they were for Medicare for all. And they had to answer a question about the elimination of private insurance.

Then they also then opened up a series of other less aggressive options, less aggressive relative to Bernie's plan, but incredibly progressive and aggressive compared to where we have been. And they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to be able to say, yeah, I'm for Medicare for all. Jill LeBrand in the second night, who has been, I think, very slippery on this issue since your interview with her. You said you're for Medicare for all. She's like, yes, I am definitely for Medicare for all. I think people should be able to buy into Medicare. I know.

And I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah, no. And if you push her on this and if you push her on the transition, she then goes to her talking point, which is I wrote the bill about the transition. And then you say, but wait, what happens during that transition? And she says, well, people have a choice to leave their insurance for Medicare. And I believe they will choose Medicare ultimately over that four year window. That's not Bernie's bill. Well, it's not only is it not Murray Bill. Again, it elides the actual political reality of at some point, if you switch everyone to Medicare, you're switching everyone to Medicare.

Yeah. So I think that was that. I think that's not the last we've heard of that. care yeah so i think that was that i think that's the not the last we've heard of that and as the field slims down and bernie is still in that slimmed down field he's going to start picking that fight a little more clearly with people and putting them on the record yeah as he should um so next big exchange the first night was over immigration and it was between julian castro and better o'rourke beto began laying out his immigration plan. Castro interrupted to point out that Beto is against the repeal of Section 1325. I think we have a clip of this. A lot of folks that are coming are not seeking asylum. A lot of them are undocumented immigrants, right?

And you said recently that the reason you didn't want to repeal Section 1325 was because you were concerned about human trafficking and drug trafficking. But let me tell you what. Section 18, Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Title 21 and Title 22 already cover human trafficking. I think that you should do your homework on this issue. If you did your homework on this issue, you would know that we should repeal this section. So that was a lively exchange. Can I just make one small point about just debates in general?

Something I have never understood. There is no moment more likely to get a candidate far off in the wings to jump in than when two people are already talking. What is it about two human beings already having an exchange that gets John Delaney so fucking worked up? Bill de Blasio. Bill de Blasio. They were just waiting like it's the most frustrating thing like let like already twice as many people are talking at once as we need already so for those of people for those of you at home who don't understand what 1325 is or unfamiliar with section 88 852 30 40 50 for those of you listening at home who aren't the physical manifestation of

congress.gov so 1325 is the part of the law that says if there is an unlawful or an unauthorized entry into this country if you cross the border it is treated as a misdemeanor crime not a felony but a misdemeanor crime and that's been on the book since 1920s um the reason it's being brought up is the trump administration used this uh old law to say well we can prosecute anyone who comes over the border and if you come over the border and you're an adult we can hold you and then we can separate your child from you. So it was how they did the child separation policy. So what Castro is saying is we should repeal that law, which criminalizes immigration. And we should basically say that if you come over the border, cross the border, and it's unauthorized, we are not treating it as a crime at all. We're treating it as a civil infraction.

We can still deport you if we want, but we're going're treating it as a civil infraction we can still deport you if we want but we're going to treat it as a civil infraction and that way no president ever can do this family separation policy um so that's it and and by the way now most candidates in the race have joined castro's position um beto has not though i think we would all agree his explanation was fairly nonsensical yeah i mean i would say look the the pundits and the judges all scored this is a big win for castro and i think they're right it was in part because the you need to do your homework line landed strongly uh and beto just sort of seemed to not have a response and it was the second time in the night where someone went after him and he didn't respond, which in this context makes you look like a weak debater.

And when we're all judging who can stand up to Donald Trump, that's probably more important than any of the substance of what they're actually talking about. That said, when Castro started in on this answer, I was like, you are making a really important point in a fucking incomprehensible way. If you're citing the number or code of a law and saying 1325, it doesn't lend itself to people at home really understanding what you're getting at. Now, clearly, he won the exchange. This was a big moment for him. But just as an observer in the moment, I wonder how many people knew what he was talking about. I think it's to his advantage that

they didn't. Like I was I'm being dead serious. I was talking with a family member of mine who watched the debate, didn't really know a lot, I'm being dead serious. I was talking with a family member of mine who watched the debate, didn't really know a lot about Castro, thought he did really well and thought he definitely won that exchange with Beto. And then I explained what Castro was arguing for. And my family member was like, Oh,

that seems like it might be a problem. And not that I think they think that it's a good or bad policy, but I don't think my family member is an expert in immigration policy, but it was like, that seems like a political problem. And let's be clear about why. Because Julian Castro is trying to make it seem like if you don't want to repeal 1325, then you're not going to repeal this family separation policy.

That is not true. It is true that 1325 is what gives Donald Trump the ability to have this family separation policy. That is not true. It is true that 1325 is what gives Donald Trump the ability to have the family separation policy. The next president on literally her or his first day in office can just end any family separation policy and basically has a ton of power to decide who to deport and who not to deport all on their own through executive action. We remember when Jeff Sessions created family separation. We can uncreate it. Exactly. So Castor is trying to conflate it with family separation to make it seem more popular.

In truth, and Juliette Kayyem, who had been in the Department of a felony, is the basis for all of our enforcement in making sure that and disincentivizing immigration into this country to just say that anyone can come here. You know what? He could have defended his policy by saying, like, look, of course, I'm going to end family separation, mass detention, mass deportation. But at some point, you don't want to have an incentive through our laws to tell people anyone can come here without applying for citizenship or asylum or whatever you may do. You just come across the border and you're fine. It's only a civil infraction. Yeah. I mean, also, just it's we're stepping back. Yeah. I mean, also just it's we're stepping back. There was a few moments in mitigation policies, which is basically a discussion about flood insurance backstops. If there's flooding in Miami, we've got a president denying the existence of climate change. And we're like, would you insure people who bought houses in floodplains? Like, what planet are we on?

And a few moments like that on health care as well. But on immigration, we've been having a debate about comprehensive immigration reform for a very, very long time. The axis of that debate is not should we decriminalize border crossings? It's can we get enough people to the table to just help dreamers who came here as children? I mean, we have been and we can't pass that, let alone let alone making sure that the 11 million who are already here get citizenship, which everyone also agrees on. Yeah, I mean, let alone making sure that the 11 million who are already here get citizenship, which everyone also agrees on. Yeah, I mean, Kamala in night two made this point about, you know, she wants people who are, you know, who have been attacked to be able to call the police. That's all. That's correct.

Like there are incredibly important things we need to do around immigration. And as part of getting to the point where we can help the millions of people who are here actually makes make sensible policy. The debate will not turn on decriminalizing the border. It will be turning on some other very, very hard compromises to get not just Republicans, but Democrats to go along with any kind of comprehensive immigration proposal. Guarantee the next Democratic president will not be talking about repealing 1325 or get it done in legislation. The next Democratic president will say, I have decriminalized immigration by making sure that we only deport the most dangerous criminals and we push for citizenship for everyone else.

That's what they're going to say. And we ban the family separation policy. Yeah. There's also another. And mass detention. And by the way, you can do all that and be better than Obama was on immigration. You can still improve on what he did, especially in the first term, which I think Obama did better by the end of his presidency. But you can still be better than that and not

completely decriminalize immigration in the law and have no law that says it's a crime to come here. If a president can, or his attorney general can unilaterally implement or not implement family separation policy, you can also put it in law. Yep. You can say that as part, whether it's part of a dreamer package or if we ever get to conference immigration reform. That's true too. You can, I believe, keep section whatever, whatever on the books and ensure that it's still a criminal felony to come in the country, but you can prevent the administration from

ever implementing, this administration or any one future, implementing a cruel and inhumane policy like family separation. I mean, stepping back. Which is the answer that Beto can and should have given. Yeah. Or anyone, frankly, anyone on that stage, anyone on the party who has gotten that question since then, it's like we are in this rush to avoid,

to get to a position where we're not going to get attacked by people in our own party. I know. When you can have a more nuanced approach, it's not a yes, it is not, I am for what Castro was for, or I'm for, or I'm Trump. There is something in the middle, and someone should have made that argument. Castro certainly succeeded in finally getting attention for having the immigration policy that was the furthest to the left of anyone by far and doing it early. And to his great credit,

he came prepared with an answer to press that point. What's particularly hard about this for Beto O'Rourke in his campaign is that he also has a comprehensive immigration plan. It's an issue that he has real fluency and understanding of having come from El Paso. And to seem like you were unprepared on a very predictable attack sucks. Yeah. I mean it is in like from a pure debate performance perspective it did not go well for him from an actual being a leader with a thoughtful position he did the right thing he could have just done what everyone else did which was just go immediately to the position that will get me the most applause in this moment. And it is, I think, to the it is from the fact that he actually lives on the border of the United States, that he takes this more seriously, not than a lot of the not Castro,

who takes it incredibly seriously. But the some of the other people who are just like, yeah, sure, I'll be for that. That seems like that'll get me retweets. Yeah, that's right. But look, if you're an expert in this and you know your position is being misrepresented and the moment concludes with do your homework, you have to say, fuck the moderator. I'm jumping in and rebutting. And more important for Beto to do that in this moment

than any other candidate on that stage given the place his campaign is it. All right, so the next big moment was about Iran. Moderator asked who as president would sign on to the 2015 Iran deal as originally negotiated. Everyone said yes, except Cory Booker, who said that if he has an opportunity to leverage a better deal, he'll do it. Tommy, what did you think about that? Okay, let's just stipulate that I'm incredibly biased. But I thought Cory Booker's answer— You're biased against war with Iran.

No, but I'm biased towards an Obama policy. Fine, stipulated, right? But my problem with Booker's answer, and frankly the whole exchange with him and Klobuchar, was how defensive they were about the Iran deal. Like, the Iran deal had one goal. We were preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon and it was working. And you do not have to adopt all these fucking Republican talking points about how the deal wasn't perfect because it didn't deal with ICBMs and ballistic missiles and it didn't deal with, you know, their malign

activities in Yemen, right? The Iran deal was about nuclear weapons. So Cory Booker should stand up for diplomacy that was working. And if he wants to get a better deal, get back in the deal, deal with the problem that we're immediately facing, which is the Iranians enriching nuclear material beyond the thresholds allowed for in the deal, and then negotiate a follow on agreement about that, about other issues, whatever. But this notion that we now have some added leverage with the Iranians is a fucking fantasy we are more divided than ever with all the other parties to the deal all the Europeans the international community and the Iranians don't trust us because we pulled out of the thing we

empowered all the fucking hardliners in Tehran who were opposed to the deal to begin with now the IRGC and the Quds Force and Qasem Soleimani and these thugs are running wild. So it's a stupid answer. It's a stupid, inexcusable answer. Why do you think of him of all people decided to do that? He was hesitant to get in the deal in the first place. There were a whole lot of people and voices in Washington that were casting doubt on the thing. But you know what?

It's also good politics, not just in a Democratic primary, but general. People don't want a war with Iran. They want a negotiated solution to the problem. It's an inexcusable answer for me. I cannot support someone that isn't full-throated in defense of diplomacy. And I think Cory Booker has been like an undervalued candidate and stock in this whole process. And I just can't even stress how disappointed I was in that moment. It is. candidate and stock in this whole process and i just can't even stress how disappointed i was in that moment it is thinking about it it's one of those things that makes you realize how different

judging these debates and performances is compared to judging them on the policy substance merits because most people coming out of that first debate said cory booker had a great night tonight cory booker had a few good moments i and we should say by the way none of us watched the debate on Twitter we watched it during our group thread which is a fucking blessing and I'm never watching them on Twitter again stay in our echo chamber if you had told if you would ask me immediately after that debate like who had an amazing night I would have said Warren did really great you know Castro had that moment I don't know that I would have said Booker but I would have said Klob said before as i've

as i've gone back like he had a really powerful answer on guns i do think that from cory booker and so i think he did a great job there but my what where i noticed uh booker most was on that iran answer and i was like what is he doing there it was very weird because substantively it wasn't good yeah i don't yeah we can get into the style points in a bit. I don't. I was surprised people thought Cory Booker had such a great night. I thought he once again failed to match the rhetoric, like the main message of his campaign with any specificity and any answer whatsoever. That's my that's my view. OK, well, we'll get to later because we should talk more about that. But what everyone think of the answers to the what will you do do if mitch mcconnell is senate majority leader when you're president

question i mean nobody has a good answer to this question because i don't know that there is one that's like i'm with tommy i mean i guess it's a good question it's important i guess sort of but it is it is in the vein of all these moderators seeing how far they can push everyone to the left and how they can get them you know because what they what they almost wanted someone to say is what you're never supposed to say is like yeah i guess if i'm stuck with him as majority leader and i didn't win the senate i'll sit down with them and try to hash something out and then you'd be kicked out of the primary that would be it for then the then the door opens up under your uh to your podium and you just go down yeah yeah marion williams and puts you in her uh her witch under your podium and you just go down. Yeah.

Marianne Williams puts you in her witch's cauldron. You just wake up and you're living in a crystal in her pocket. I mean, I do think Warren's answer, which some people were like, I don't know, is the best answer, which is you've got to go out there and campaign. Basically go to Republican districts of senators who aren't with you on your legislative agenda and try to pressure them politically. I was like, Barack Obama did that. It didn't necessarily work all the time. You got to win Senate seats. You got to win Senate seats. Right. I mean, that's the thing. In that moment, it's like, yeah, we can talk about the hypothetical of what happens if we lose the Senate, but you just make the argument of why we need to win the Senate.

Yeah. And it's the other reason why each of these candidates, and we've been asking them this when they're here, should have a robust agenda around executive actions, knowing who you're going to appoint and your foreign policy, which are all things that you can control. Because if Mitch McConnell is the majority leader, you're not getting much through in your legislative agenda. So you better have other plans. Has it ever occurred to you that if Elizabeth Warren becomes president, she gives Mitch McConnell a Senate seat for like nine months?

Yes, I don't like it. She gives him a Senate seat because Charlie Baker would appoint a Republican senator to sit in her seat for. Would we have a special? I feel like there's a law. The Democrats changed the law in 2004 in the expectation that we're probably right after the exit polls came in that Kerry was going to win. You're saying this is rigged. You would get a special election, but it's like nine months later.

I mean, then, yeah, Martha Coakley runs and we're fine. Too soon. The last big exchange of the night was between Tim Ryan and Tulsi Gabbard. Didn't expect that coming. Over Afghanistan. Do we have that clip? Let's listen to that because that was something. But the reality of it is if the United States isn't engaged, the Taliban will grow.

And they will have bigger, bolder terrorist acts. We have got to have some present there. The Taliban was there long before we came in. They'll be there long before we leave. We cannot keep U.S. troops deploying to Afghanistan thinking that we're going to somehow squash this Taliban that has been there that every other country that has tried has failed. I didn't say squash them. When we weren't in there, they started flying planes into our buildings. So I'm just saying right now, we have an obligation.

The Taliban didn't attack us on 9-11. Al-Qaeda did. Well, I understand. Al-Qaeda attacked us on 9-11. I understand. That's why I and so many other people joined the military, to go after Al-Qaeda, not the Taliban. I could have gone better for Tim. You do a long shot presidential bid. You manage to scrape the 1% you need to get on that fucking stage.

And then you just fucking eat shit. And Tulsi Gabbard kicks the shit out of you on that stage. What are you doing there? I mean, you can make an argument for saying we need several thousand U.S. troops to remain in Afghanistan to train, continue to train Afghan security forces to ensure that we don't have a repeat of Iraq where we left completely and ISIS overran them, whatever. OK, like it's not an argument I agree with, but one could make it. But to make it in such a unsophisticated way and then confuse the

Taliban and Al-Qaeda is a huge problem. But also, just a real quick thing about Tulsi. She was really strong in the moment. She's credentialed and she can make this case. But just also, all the Tulsi stands out there should look into the things she's talking about in terms of coordinating with the Russians and Vladimir Putin on counterterrorism. Like she doesn't have the best record when it comes to the U.S. counterterrorism. Were there any red flags that Tim Ryan could have? So he said the next day he was like, I'm not going to be lectured by someone who dines with a dictator who gasses kids. Great job, George Casanza.

Yeah, I was going to say referring to her her friendship with Bashar al-Assad. In French. Meeting. And I don't know how to pronounce it. Do it. Try. Esprit d'escalier. It means spirit of the staircase because you thought about it while you were leaving.

I like the jerk store called that. I like that callback better. Can somebody check how you pronounce, I think it's Esprit d'Escalé, but I don't know how to do French. Jerk store called, Tim Ryan. I don't have Rosetta Stone like the rest of these candidates. That wasn't his strongest moment, Tim Ryan. All right, so which candidates were most impressive first night? Who helped themselves the most?

Castro helped himself the most. Castro has not got a lot of attention in this race he barely made the first debate he is someone who is was been seen in a rise as a rising star in this party for eight years now since he gave the keynote at obama's convention 2012 yeah i don't think i would have gotten even close esprit de l'escalier thank you for that uh this is an absurd thing to say and i know but bill de blasio did himself some favors on night one right like i so i had this i had this problem watching bill de blasio because i thought he was delivering a very strong progressive message, but everything he says so annoys me.

He says it in an annoying way, but he also landed some punches and, you know, it was mixing up. And then you came in with no preconceptions about Bill de Blasio. You didn't know where he went to the gym and when. Yeah. Then you would probably think this guy,

you know, that's, that's a very appropriate. I like what he's saying. Oh, and he did these things. He gave people universal pre-K. He minimum wage that's impressive no these other people have done any of those things yep there was a moment where i think beto o'rourke you could

see in his eyes like how the fuck am i on this stage arguing with bill de blasio how is that how is that where this ended up over the war powers act bill de blasio took a took a swing that was very out of nowhere um i thought klobuchar was pretty good. I thought Jay Inslee was good. I think I might have been the only one who was an Inslee stan. Yeah. No, he was good. I think he was fine. It's a moment.

But it's like who advanced their campaign. Yeah. Warren came in. We haven't talked about Elizabeth Warren. Yeah. Elizabeth Warren. Who won the debate. Yeah.

She had a great debate. Winners and losers, huh, John? It was interesting that no one challenged her. Great. Not once. Not even once. No one even dared to come after her. They're scared. So she came in the leader. She left the leader. And she stayed out one challenged her. Great. Not once. Not even. No one even dared to come after her. They're scared.

So she came in the leader. She left the leader. And she stayed out of every fight. Yeah. I mean, it could not have gone better for her. She did not take it. She did not challenge anyone. She basically pretended they mostly weren't there.

Yeah. And just talked about her plans and her message. It was odd, though, that she was so front and center in the debate in the first half or three quarters. And the moderator sort of forgot about her and she didn't really make an effort to jump in because she was probably thinking let these guys go at it i agree i'm gonna chill out there was one moment where they went to delaney and it was clear like i couldn't believe they were going to john delaney again yeah there was you know we talked a lot about you know dan has talked about debates as being uh not the best way to pick a president and have nothing to do with the job. And you made some sort of sports metaphor that I don't remember or understand,

but the, the, the, that it's like dribbling versus dunking. But there is something you learn from the debate, which is one of these people over two nights is going to debate Donald Trump. And I, I was watching for that, that like who can captivate the state, hold the stage, who can who can who does well on television, which is a different skill than than being in a campaign and doing a rally. And when Elizabeth Warren spoke, people went quiet. They paid attention. She was a leader on that stage. She could hold the room. She was big. And because, you know, we're all we all can't stand Donald Trump. We all hate Donald Trump, which makes it hard sometimes to see what his skills are. But one of his skills are is he is big. He is a larger than life figure. And he has captivated our country for years. He has he has taken our attention for years. He is a big figure and big presence in our lives and in our minds. And so whoever has to stand up against him is going to have to be able to fill a stage. And so I think she really did pass that test really well.

There's a second test, I think, that we did not get to see from Elizabeth Warren that I think she probably will pass too. But because she was not, no one attacked her, she didn't attack anyone else, we don't yet know what, we don't have evidence of how she will do when she actually has to battle Trump. Totally agree. Like, I have great confidence she will be able to do it. And she's going to have to fight people in other debates.

It's just this debate, she came in the leader. It's telling that no one had the courage to go after her. She left the leader. And I just want to go back to Castro for one sec. I think he is, I don't want to say, like, win or lose or stupid, but he was in danger of not making the third debate, of sort of not being paid attention. He's done a lot of work identifying himself as the true progressive on civil rights and social issues in this campaign, coming out with an immigration plan, a policing plan. Yeah.

And he had to take this moment. And he succeeded. And now he's in the game, right? There's a chance he'd be there with the Swalwells and the Delanys and the Hickenloopers. And now he's on people's minds. So he's given himself a shot to be in the mix going forward. And that's a big deal. Do we think, what do we think happens with Booker from here?

Because, you know, his campaign did say they had like the best single day of fundraising ever after the debate. Lovett said you weren't as impressed. I thought he had a couple really strong moments. I think, look, Cory Booker has a message about, you know. What is it? I'm being serious. Yeah, it's sort of about like healing the divides in our country. Right. And it's not just a very simple, I'm going to sit down with Mitch McConnell, bring people together.

But that like, you know, we can't be as hateful as Donald Trump if we're going to lead this country forward. Right. And he also has a story to tell about what he's done as mayor in Newark, what he's done as senator. You know, he just had this big bipartisan accomplishment with the First Step Act in this with this White House that he can talk about. It happens to be about criminal justice reform, which he talked about. So he has something. I I was I was a little surprised. Love it, too, that so many people thought he had the greatest night because I thought he had a few strong moments. But I don't know. I also think maybe I'm holding him to a very high standard because I really like his message. I really like his closing. That was when I got very, I actually didn't get frustrated with

Cory Booker, in fairness to him, until the end when I saw his closing statement, because whenever he delivers that larger message, which I think ultimately is a smarter, more sophisticated, interesting message about love versus Marianne Williamson, honestly. And I actually... Better than Williamson. No, but I do think it's important. But he never, to me, I keep waiting for it to manifest in his actual discussion of policy. And then in his healthcare answers, in his rhetoric, it's very laden with words and phrases. But I never feel like I'm hearing something interesting or different in terms of what his message around healing actually would mean in terms of his presidency that distinguishes him from some of the other Democrats. And so I'm constantly looking for that, and I constantly feel disappointed because I have such high hopes for him. Who do you think hurt themselves?

I mean, Beto O'Rourke definitely did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, to be honest, it's opportunity for you. There are two groups of people. There are people who have a line of sight on qualifying for the third debate. So just to explain that, to get to the third debate, they raise the polling threshold and they raise the online donor threshold to 130,000 donors. Most of the candidates on both stage both nights barely got into the first two debates.

Barely. It is really hard to get to the third debate. The candidate, Beto was on the list of candidates who most likely is going to get to the third debate. So the candidates who are going to get to the third debate, they hurt themselves probably short term in fundraising, maybe a little bit in support, but it's mostly an opportunity cost. They had a chance in front of the entire nation to define themselves. They didn't do it. The candidates who have no line of sight to the third debate, who did not do anything to move themselves there, then they hurt themselves

because now they only got one more shot to do it. Because if you don't make the third debate, your campaign is for all intents and purposes over. Yeah. And I think Beto O'Rourke has to do an incredible amount of work to fix that first debate performance before the second debate performance. And I don't think it's like, like, I actually don't think his biggest problem was Castro got the better of him on that one exchange. Because to me, when Savannah kicked it off with, are you in favor of a 70% tax rate on people making $10 million or more? And he couldn't answer the question.

He dodged it in two languages. It's just like dude you can't do that and look it's just like we all we all love beto you know we we got to know him during the documentary and stuff like that but like and i and i do think you know that the twitter explanation that like oh it was all about ted cruz and no one really liked him is bullshit like we've seen it up close. People love that guy in Texas. They show up for him. But that Beto that was in the Texas Senate race, who was authentic, who talks about progressive issues in a red state, who does that stuff, we haven't seen him on this campaign.

That's the thing. We just haven't seen it yet. Think about the Beto O'Rourke kneeling answer. It was a direct question, and I think the first word out of his, like, do you, are you offended by people kneeling? And the first word out of his mouth was no. Yeah. Let me explain to you why. What we were missing last night from him was direct answers that sound like conversational English. Do not start your response about a painting that is hung on a wall somewhere. That sounds canned. It's a shitty anecdote to begin with. It's not, it's not reaching anybody. What people liked about him, he's a shitty anecdote to begin with it's not it's not reaching

anybody what people liked about him he's a smart thoughtful guy that speaks to them like a human being that seems closer to our age than most of the other people on stage which is why he could use social media better and communicate with young people like yeah bring back that individual you gotta get up there to say fuck it yeah step back and especially at this point talk about the artifice you got nothing to lose anymore man yeah no because you know you just go up there and just fucking let it rip for the next one the only the worst thing he could do is continue doing what he's doing yeah uh all right second debate the big night last night uh this was just in case anyone forgets marion williamson john hickenlooper andrew yang pete budaj joe biden bernie sanders kamala First, before we get into anything else, what do we think overall about night two compared to night one?

Before we get into any of the specifics, just overall thoughts. I mean, I thought that was, this is the real night, you know? Yeah. I mean, it was just, you know, there was debate and argument and surprising moments. I mean, this was fascinating. There were many moments where I was just I was sitting at the improv eating spinach and art show tip with just just a gog. I will say that I've gone back and forth on this since the debate lineups were announced about whether Elizabeth Warren got lucky to be on her own night or got a raw deal because she wasn't in the second night. Now, looking back at both nights, she got screwed by

not being in the second. I don't agree. I don't think Kamala took out Biden for her and she's still sitting in a great place. I think she probably. But now the story is Kamala Harris and Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren is not in the headlines. Yeah, but that's – Like she might have been if she was in that debate. I mean, the thing is, I think that – yes, that is true. Like I think Elizabeth Warren, if you were at her headquarters, is probably not happy with last night because – I don't agree.

I don't know. I don't know. This – we have a gazillion debates to go. That's true. Right. Elizabeth Warren had a good debate. I'm sure she raised money coming out of it. She got support coming out of it.

She delivered her message. She didn't have to fight with anyone. She just got to do her thing. And she's doing fine. She feels good about where she is. She's coming in at least as strong. She's leaving just at least as strong as she came in. And that's fine. I don't think it was bad. I just think if you had to pick and you were her, you'd probably pick

this. I think you'd rather star one night than be second building the second. I agree with that. I don't think it's clear what would have, oh, it's an alternative universe. I don't think anyone should feel, I don't know why anybody would be unhappy to have not been on that stage with Kamala because there was a clear moment for one candidate. Now we don't know what it would have looked like if Warren had also been there, but watching that second debate, you know, Gillibrand had some good answers, but everybody looked like they were in black and white compared

to what Kamala was doing up there. Let me make the argument for the status quo for Warren, which is that you want Biden to be attacked and you want his support to wane away, but you don't want to be the one attacking because in Iowa in particular, you want those Biden voters to like you. And as much as Kamala looked like a president and was commanding and you could see her going toe to toe with Donald Trump. If you're a Biden stan, that probably pissed you off. That's a good point. That's good. That's a meaningful thing over time. The other thing that I think would probably if Elizabeth Warren is disappointed about anything, what would be most helpful for her would be for Biden or Kamala or Pete to have taken down Bernie. Bernie also left

that debate unscathed. Yeah. And they they are each other's greatest obstacle to the nomination. And eventually they're going to have to battle for those voters. But the ideal situation for either one of them is someone else to take down the other one. Yeah. And that didn't happen. So they went through another health care debate at the top, which we just talked about. The other big health care question they were all asked at the second night was raise your hands if your health care plan would cover undocumented immigrants. Every candidate raised their hand, although Biden was sort of like half up, didn't know quite a lot of one figure. And it was very much. I don't know if it was a plan. I don't know what was going on. But it seemed to me his way to avoid raising his hands was to act as if,

I need to ask something about the thing you're asking so that I could say it was, I couldn't tell if it was smart or stupid. I think it's smart. I met a bunch of really smart people who advise them on debates for a living, like Ron Klain, were like, when you raise your hand, you look like a child. And if you looked around that stage, there were times where there were some, like, dorky, hand-up, like, teacher-teacher-call teacher teacher calling me looks that you probably weren't well you wanted a little more subtle hand raise dan's like what the fuck are you talking about i agree with you but was biden

raising his hand or was he trying to interject no he's raising it this is raising your hand okay okay was there like a rule book what do you got well i thought it's like if you don't get it six inches off the podium no it's not a hand i thought it might be that he was trying to say wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait and then never answer yeah love it is right that his hand raising and his i'd like to interject here is the same hand motion thank you dan was anyone okay let's get to the actual substance more hand raising there so they all just said sure health care for undocumented immigrants was anyone surprised at this a little bit i was very surprised that every said that there wasn't one on that stage including the people who are like screaming about socialism like five minutes earlier i think there's a good argument to be

made which is that people are going to go to the emergency room if they're really sick so we're going to pay for this no matter what i didn't no one made that argument no one defended it at all they all just wanted to avoid the attack from the left without defending the position it was funny watching pete pete looked like he was going to go there. He was like, you don't want people, anyone running around uninsured. It's inhumane. And then he goes, it's inhumane, which, of course, it's inhumane. We're all we are.

Those of us at this table are in agreement on this for sure. But I haven't seen any polling on this lately. But I'm I know that when we pass the Affordable Care Act, one of the things that Barack Obama had to say specifically during his joint address to Congress in order to get Democrats on board was that this is not a plan that gives free health care to undocumented immigrants. You lie. A member of Congress yelling at the president during the State of the Union or the joint address. Again, maybe a harbinger of the collapse of our society, because Republicans were like, we like that now. Yelling at a black man is good, was about this question.

Yeah, it was about this question. It was accusing Barack Obama of lying on this very issue. And look, Tommy is exactly right. There is a good argument to be made to people in this country and say like, we can ensure everyone in this country now, whether they are documented or not documented. If they go to the hospital, they go to the emergency room. You're going to end up paying more in taxes because we're going to care for

people in this country who get hurt, who get sick one way or the other. We might as well insure them. So there's preventive care and we're not paying for on the backend. There's a way to make that argument. Do you think there's any political challenges with in the same night decriminalizing the border and then offering free health care to the people who cross the now legal border i i do dan i mean like neoliberal shill yeah no i know liberal shill neoliberal shill

tommy's well like i i i believe that now he's got all the fucking love it's love it has the same position everyone out there um he was screaming i just get in here can i just get screaming about it before i was at a little museum called the louvre and there was a painting there of a woman and as the only gay man on this stage who cares for a golden doodle let me just say i get i get it i got it it. Great job, Delaney. Got out of answering. It worked. There are two parts about this. One is both on the question of health care for undocumented people, you're right, no one made the case for why it's good for everyone to do that. And that has become largely true of immigration in this campaign. Yeah.

Is that we have stopped making the case for why immigration is good for everyone in the country, why it's good for the economy, why it is good for security, everything else. Why comprehensive immigration reform is right. The second thing is, even if it is good policy, you have to be fully eyes wide open about the political challenges of adopting that good policy. And Trump tweeted about this like six seconds after it happened, which is amazing because he's in Japan. Yeah. And he was ready. And we have to know that right now, the Trump campaign, the Koch funded super PACs are gearing up and they are now going to spend every day from now until we have a nominee drilling the idea that Democrats want to spend your taxpayer dollars on health care for undocumented people, which they will do in the most racist, disgusting ways.

But they are going to do that. Which, honestly, politically may be our only saving grace because they will overdo it and end up lying about something. It's important to remember that what Trump says about this will probably be counterproductive because he will do it in a stupid, confusing, racist way. confusing racist way yeah but the way the trump campaign will do it and the way the republican super PACs will do it will be very smart and it'll be targeted and it's gonna be fucking relentless and the media next year and the media refs in this instance will say actually these super PACs are right actually the trump campaign is right we will not have the fact checkers on our side right and when you yell at the new york times for doing that on twitter uh it won't change anything so we have to do something between now and then. Right.

Like the candidates have to make the case on the stump for why why they took this position and why it is the right thing. And to the extent that some sort of larger progressive apparatus is out there, it's going to have to be fighting back up until the moment we have a nominee, which could be on the third fucking night of the convention. The way things are going so that before because you drop that in there in case anyone just shuddered yeah anybody not have a stomachache happy friday hope you enjoy the fourth of july maybe the last one enjoy the trump speech um no i agree look we dealt with this in 2008, the famous debate where Hillary Clinton first stumbled was over New York State providing driver's licenses or ID cards to undocumented immigrants, driver's licenses. And the political belief there was like, they're undocumented and you're going to give people driver's licenses now? Like, what's going on? She's like, yes, I am.

No, I'm not. Yeah, she went back and forth. Barack Obama came down on, yes, it does make sense to give them driver's licenses and it's a public safety issue and here's why and he explained he didn't do it like every stump speech but he explained in interviews and on the stump over and over why it was a public safety issue why it's important to do that even though it may not be politically popular and it was okay he was okay i will say though that is a different moment in Republican politics in which the consensus view of Republicans was for comprehensive immigration reform, which allowed like this issue has evolved much very quickly.

The Republicans have moved to a nativist right while Democrats have moved to the left, which is just a different it's a different debate than the debate we're having during that time. All right, so another moment, Mayor Pete was asked about the controversy over the killing of a black South Bend resident by a white police officer. I think we have that clip. by a white police officer. I think we have that clip. The police force in South Bend is now 6% black in a city that is 26% black. Why has that not improved over your two terms as mayor?

Because I couldn't get it done. My community is in anguish right now because of an officer-involved shooting, a black man, Eric Logan, killed by a white officer. And I'm not allowed to take sides until the investigation comes back. The officer said he was attacked with a knife, but he didn't have his body camera on. It's a mess, and we're hurting.

And I could walk you through all of the things that we have done as a community, all of the steps that we took from bias training to de-escalation, but it didn't save the life of Eric Logan. And when I look into his mother's eyes, I have to face the fact that nothing that I say will bring him back. This is an issue that is facing our community

and so many communities around the country. And until we move policing out from the shadow of systemic racism, whatever this particular incident teaches us, we will be left with the bigger problem of the fact that there's a wall of mistrust put up one racist act at a time, not just from what's happened in the past, but from what's happening around the country in the present. It threatens the well-being of every community. And I am

determined to bring about a day when a white person driving a vehicle and a black person driving a vehicle, when they see a police officer approaching, feels the exact same thing, a feeling not of fear, but of safety. I'm determined to bring that day about. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. How do you guys think Pete handled that situation? I think he did it very well. Political consultants will say, don't admit a mistake. Don't explain what you did wrong. Don't repeat the attack, essentially. Pete did both of those things, and that was the exact right thing to do. It was honest.

It felt like a very raw moment. I think he handled that very well. I think that it came off as earnest and sincere, and I love politicians who will admit mistakes or say sorry, especially because as Dan described, the conventional wisdom is that you never do those things because it shows weakness and yada, yada, yada. But I also suspect that there will be many people who heard that answer and felt it was insufficient. And it just showed that maybe you're out of your depth on this problem because it's a problem that's been around for a very long time

and you're conceding you haven't solved it and there maybe hasn't been the sense of urgency that folks in South Bend wanted five years ago. And so I don't know that he's out of the woods yet with a community of people who care deeply about policing and social injustice and et cetera. Well, two people who weren't satisfied with the answer were John Hickenlooper and Eric Swalwell. So didn't satisfied with the answer were uh john hickenlooper

and eric swalwell so didn't they see this coming but no i didn't john what we didn't hear was john hickenlooper after this says well in denver many years ago we put all these procedures in place and i'm wondering and they've worked in denver and i'm wondering why they haven't been replicated all across the country and then eric swal said, why didn't you fire the police chief? And, you know, Pete directly can't fire the police chief, but he can appoint members and fire members of the public safety board who then can fire police chiefs and police officers as well. And so I agree that, like, I think,

I think he nailed that answer in the moment. And it is absolutely refreshing to hear a politician just say, like, I screwed up. I couldn't do it like and that that gets him a lot of points. But I think coming attractions like there's there's a lot of other candidates were ready to to pounce on this one. If I was Pete's campaign, I would be praying to God that when they do the drawing for the next debate, Julian Castro is not on stage with me. Julian Castro has put out the most progressive, most aggressive plan on policing reform of anyone in this field.

And this is a glaring vulnerability for Pete. I think he handled the question exactly right. I think he is earnest about his desire to do better and honest about the emotion in his community. But when you are the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, and you want to be the president of the United States, your record as the mayor of a smaller city in Indiana- That's everything. It's got to be fucking A plus. And if you have a glaring problem on an issue that is incredibly

important to the Democratic Party and the most important constituency of the Democratic Party, that is a tremendous challenge that he is going to have to navigate throughout this campaign. On top of a glaring problem with reaching African-American voters to begin with. Yes. Yeah. So at the end of that exchange, I believe, Swalwell's yelling at him. Pete looks like he's going to just lunge at Swalwell. And I would just want to point out that when Mayor Pete looked at Eric Swalwell with that expression, it was actually a moment where I thought, I can see that person in command of a country because that was the most intense expression

I've ever seen on a face. Mayor Pete wanted to look like he wanted to rip Eric Swalwell's head from his body and then, I don't know. Okay. And then just sort of be done because he killed him and then just to just to choreograph this crazy exactly as as swalwell's yelling at him marion williamson pops up out of nowhere tiger race and then well that's just because she had stopped.

Your unicorn was thirsty on their way. So the unicorn had stopped at the River Styx for a drink. And then finally it reached the debate stage. And finally, Kamala Harris stands up and says, as the only black person on this stage, I would like to speak about race. And then we have the moment of both nights. Basically, she starts by saying, you know, Vice President Biden, I'm directing this to you. I do not believe you are a racist. I

praise the fact that you want to find common ground with people. And yet it really hurt when you talked about the reputation of the segregationist senators. And not only that, but opposed busing because I and then she has this thing, which is there was a little girl in California who was part of the second class to integrate her public schools. And she was bused to school every day. And that little girl was me. And then that moment, you're just like, oh, wow. Wow. But Vice President Biden, do you agree today? Do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose busing in America? Do you agree? I did not oppose busing in America. What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education.

That's what I oppose. Well, there was a failure of states to integrate public schools in America. I was part of the second class to integrate Berkeley, California public schools almost two decades after Brown v. Board of Education. Because your city council made that decision. It was a local decision. So that's where the federal government must step in. That's why we have the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. That's why we need to pass the Equality Act. That's why we need to pass the ERA. Because there are moments in history where states fail to preserve the civil rights of all people. I have supported the ERA from the very beginning. 30 seconds, because I want to bring other people into this.

I have supported the ERA from the very beginning. I'm the guy that extended the Voting Rights Act for 25 years. We got to the place where we got 98 out of 98 votes in the United States Senate doing it. I've also argued very strongly that we, in fact, deal with the notion of denying people access to the ballot box. I agree that everybody, once they, in fact,

anyway, my time's up, I'm sorry. That was hard to listen to. Tough way to end that. What were your reactions to that in real time? Dan, what did you think? The Biden part is hard. It really is because we've said this before, but we all care about Joe Biden personally. As a person, as Barack Obama's loyal vice president.

But it was painful to watch. Yeah. And it was painful to watch him get beat up in a debate exchange, but was even more painful was his answer on busing, which is a completely unacceptable answer. It's an unacceptable answer in the seventies, let alone in 2019, because what he is essentially,

he's making a state's rights argument on civil rights in 2019 saying that, yes, of course, Kamala Harris, we could integrate your schools. That's what Berkeley chose. But what about Birmingham, Alabama? Or he's specifically referring to my hometown of Wilmington, Delaware, which had such a problem with school integration that there was federally mandated busing until my senior year in high school. And Biden tried and barely and almost succeeded to pass a law that

would prevent the court from forcing school integration in my hometown. And there was such an answer to say, I was wrong. I have changed. Times have changed and I have changed. She gave him an out. That's the crazy thing is she was fair in saying, do you still agree today with the position you took back then? And I don't think you're a racist. And if he had just said, answered that question, no, I don't. I've changed over the years, Kamala. And I'm proud of my civil rights record. I did a lot of wonderful things on civil rights. You can list the Voting Rights Act, all the things that he really did do on civil rights. But on that issue, I was wrong. I've changed. We all change. You've changed on things too.

I mean, like there was an answer available to him where it would have still been a very powerful moment from Kamala, but at least Biden would have parried it. He did not take that. Because he, like, as we have been saying, he is stubborn and could not admit that his position on busing was wrong. No one can credibly argue that the federal government

didn't play a critical role in integration in this country. Absolutely critical. And then for him to sort of pivot to the Civil Rights Act made the whole thing make even less sense. Yeah, it was a brutal moment. It was a brutal moment because every fear and concern about Joe Biden as a standard bearer of the Democratic Party in 2019 was laid bare. You know, it was a moment

in which his policy position seemed antiquated. It was a moment where he did not seem lithe and able to succeed on the debate stage. It was a moment where he was upstaged by the charisma and intensity and passion of someone facing him. And it was a moment where he seemed old. So it was a devastating moment for Joe Biden. And now we should stipulate, we think, right? Nate Silver tweeted this and pointed out that there have been a whole bunch of scandals that I think all of us, all the judges, all the pundits in the moment thought were devastating for Biden. And he came through them relatively unscathed in polling. So in the Crooked Media Change poll, Biden was performing at, I believe, 62% among African

American voters. The next closest was 11% from Kamala Harris. So we should watch and see if those numbers move. But look, on a moral level, indisputable. It's just the politics of this. It's hard to predict. Yeah. And I would say, yeah, I don't know what will play out in the polls. I don't know what other people watching it. I felt it was devastating to me to see it because I want Democrats to win. And right now, Joe Biden is the front runner of this in this in this race. And I am you know, and there is they are making a case that he is the most electable. He is leading in the polls when you compare him against Donald Trump. Well, this was a moment to test that, to see what he was like on a debate stage. And I think this this was a signal to anyone who could support Joe Biden to have a doubt.

Myself among them. I think it's like we're talking about Biden here, but we should also talk about Kamala. Yeah. Which is in not just this moment, but throughout the entire debate. In not just this moment, but throughout the entire debate, I'm not sure I have ever seen a candidate have a more dominating debate performance than Kamala Harris had last night. I agree. Me neither. I can't remember. She crushed that debate.

She was charismatic on message. She showed electability, showed how she could take Trump down. She seemed like she was the leader on that stage of all the other candidates. It was not even close. It was head and shoulders above everyone else. And frankly, anyone else I've seen in a debate and the Biden moment was part of that, but we thought she had won.

She was dominating the debate and before the long before the moment, I want to first half of the debate. I'm going to break up the Kamala Harris love fest for one second to read a clunker. Hey guys, you know what? America does not want to read a clunker. Hey, guys, you know what? America does not want to witness a food fight, she said. They want to know how we're going to put food on their table.

Now, every debate, every candidate has that line in their back pocket, and there's always a moment to bust it out. It was still a little corny. It was very corny, and yet because she was so commanding, it worked. It worked. And now it is a shame that she did steal that line from the evil 1990s clown that wrote the rest of eric swalwell's lines uh she looked she but what she still took that moment and ran with it and all the other kids were like fuck i was gonna say that part of the reason that kamala harris is so impressive is that she does have this cadre of consultants who give her lines like that.

She can deliver them better than most and make you believe it. I mean, a lot of her moments last night, the Biden moment, other moments, you could tell were set pieces. She had practiced those moments, right? I mean, they said, I guess Politico said that her campaign had T-shirts ready to go with i was that little girl on the t-shirt so that is not great to me it tweeted it immediately the tweet was good yeah i just don't like okay i debates are an effort to demonstrate authenticity to create moments that seem like they're off the cuff that's fine do not hang too much of a lantern on that yeah i just said because it is indicative

like i having interviewed kamala harris knowing her like i think she has maybe more potential than anyone running for president i think she is charismatic she is strong she is she fucking nails it in those debates um but every once in a while i saw notice this in her closing statement too there's like cheesy consultant language that pops up there and i just want like she needs to be her because she's fucking great yeah just you know the um the other thing that's so was so incredible about it is this is somebody that's not pulling at 10 or 15 she's 0.5 right she's she needed to win you know and she's been saying this across the country she said it in her closing she said it at the iowa dinner um you know i'm the one to prosecute the case and then she had a bunch of

cheesy and i think not good rhetoric about fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, which was a lot of language without actually a case. Fine. But what she had done was set for herself an impossible expectation for success in this debate. And then she met it. Well, and what this what that exchange with Biden was about was Trump. Yes. Because what it when she, I can prosecute the case against Trump, she did it against Biden on stage and she let Democrats see, okay, if Donald Trump is standing where Joe Biden is,

can you imagine these two going at it and her winning and you could. And on Biden's side, whatever you think of the substance of the disagreement with the two of them, you look at that and say, oh, he's supposed to be the most electable guy.

We want to put him on stage next to Donald Trump. And then you imagine trump tearing into biden and if he does and if he responds to trump the way he responded to kamala you think oh shit he's not the most electable yeah the other the other thing that she has and dan was making this point about biden last night which is eric swalwell made the first of 400 torch related attacks on biden and the split screen was just swalwell and then Biden grinning. And that grin said all you needed to know about the silliness of that attack, and it brushed it right off.

Kamala Harris has this ability to laugh her way through a tricky moment or a tough question or an attack that is incredibly disarming. Yeah. And it served her well against a shithead like Trump. The other thing I'd just say about Kamala, that if we're trying to analyze this in the context of what kind of nominee she would be or what kind of president she would be,

is that she is a fucking clutch player. Every time she has had to deliver under the brightest light she has done, so whether it was Kavanaugh, Bill Barr, everyone was watching that. And she nailed it. This debate, she nailed it. Her kickoff speech, she nailed, right? She she she nails the set piece you think the clutch gene is

real then yes i do think you're born with it yes all right the uh we we had talked about it before the debate that this was an opportunity for kamala harris to go after someone we did we said it and and joking before i said oh maybe she's gonna start with buddha judge because he's like you know the the goon before you get to the big boss biden but she didn't she went right for biden but actually tucked into some of her language was a was a little hit on the end no she was just like just as she gets to the end of the hit on biden and she's like oh yeah and by the way when i was uh ag we kept all those cameras the police cameras on and you were just like oh she was like oh and i'm not done with you she's like and may repeat sleep with one eye open and pray during that debate you're all next time she was like, oh, and I'm not done with you. She's like, and Mayor Pete, sleep with one eye open and pray during that debate you're all next time.

She was like, hey, Swalwell, nice tie. Orange? Orange, glad you didn't wear another tie. Joe Biden. Joe Biden also. Really nailed that one, Tommy. Yeah, Tommy made a Swalwell joke there. Joe Biden also took some hits from Swalwell.

I think we might have a clip of Eric Swalwell trying to make something happen here. I was six years old when a presidential candidate came to the California Democratic Convention and said, it's time to pass the torch to a new generation of Americans. That candidate was then Senator Joe Biden. Joe Biden was right when he said it was time to pass the torch to a new generation of Americans 32 years ago. He's still right today. If we're going to solve the issues of automation, pass the torch. If we're going to solve the issues of climate chaos, pass the torch. If we're going to solve the issue of student loan debt, pass the torch.

If we're going to end gun violence for families who are fearful of sending their kids to school, pass the torch. Fuck you. It was, I fucking could not. It made me so crazy the other thing about that that was so fucking awful is he was so ready to jump in to attack biden he did that after mayor pete spoke the millennial on the stage too because he was so pumped to go after joe biden with that garbage can fucking speech if he had stopped yeah if he's at the first pass the torch that would have been passable decent diana passable it would have been enough no it would have been like a medium okay moment

making a case for generating it would have been swallowing the campaign you're totally right that like doing it right after mayor pete who looks even younger was was not the moment to do it but dude don't lean into it so hard it was and then he brought it up a couple more times he just he was he. He said it again like he was so proud of himself the first time. He's like, I'm bringing back the torch joke. He had some lines. Remember the breaking up with Russia?

I'm going to break up with Russia and get back together with NATO. You know what the problem with that was? Make out with NATO? Was it make out? I'm going to fuck NATO. I'm going to fucking... Here's what's going to happen here. I'm going to break up with Russia with a text and then I'm going to go right to NATO's house and we're going to fuck. Here's the thing about Eric Swalwell that really pisses me off, which is, oh, we're

going to pass the torch to you. Every word out of your mouth sounds old. You sound like you're a hundred years old. You sound like a politician that's been in politics since before you were born. It is funny. He does sound old. He's, he's our age. It's like literally my age and just use now i just after that broadside when we interviewed him here i interviewed such a like perfectly nice guy yeah friendly off stage

like normal talks like a younger person has interesting life experience yeah kids bring that guy to the stage don't bring bring the memorized answer guy to the stage. Well, you know what, though? Like, you're at 1%. You're a long shot candidate. There are people out there who might think you got into this race to build your brand,

sell a book, get on television. I don't know what. If your answer to all of that is a bunch of cheesy fucking lines and no actual argument, get off the fucking stage. I'm sorry, get off the stage. It's too fucking important

to have you interrupting to try to make a moment for yourself in the most important primary of our lives. Yeah. Who else? Which candidates were most impressive other than Kamala in that debate? Did anyone else impressive? Anyone help themselves, do you think?

Pete was good. Pete was good. Yeah, Pete was very good. To me, Pete, he came in with a lot of expectations, absolutely met those expectations, no more, no less, but just was, like, fucking solid, good. And it's just worth giving him credit for meeting those expectations. He's the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who's on the debate stage sitting next to Joe Biden.

Yeah, for sure. And he did deliver in that moment. I think he's got challenges going forward that he's going to have to navigate. But just being up there, not being nervous, delivering your lines with comments and being the subject of a very difficult set of questions around your own conduct is different than most candidates with a lot more experience have to deal with. Yeah. And he more than any other candidate has name identification challenges to deal with because we feel like we all hear about Pete all the time. But a lot of people still don't know him.

And so I think 15, 16, however many million people tuned in, if you saw Pete on that stage for the first time, I think you'd probably be impressed. Bernie was also fine. Bernie did Bernie. He delivered his message. He delivered a message we know is very appealing with some set of voters and was, I mean, he did good. Like, I don't think he, I don't think he improved his situation. He didn't hurt himself. He was sort of a non-entity after the beginning of the debate.

I liked Mayor Pete's answer on China. I thought it was a smart and sophisticated and actually got at the core of a big challenge in a way that I think other people on that stage were not as adept at addressing. Yeah, I agree with that. I thought Jill LeBrand started slowly because she kept trying to work this corruption message into the first two moments where she spoke, even though it didn't fit what was being discussed. But when she got to reproductive rights and choice, she was passionate and made a case that I think made her stand out. Similar with Michael Bennett. I think 99.99% of people went into this debate and having no idea who he was. And you probably learned something about him last night, which is, as Dan has mentioned, sort of half the

battle. One thing about the debate, too, I was thinking about it after it's a lot of people don't know who Michael Bennett is. And I think probably a lot of people were lost in that exchange between Joe Biden and Michael Bennett over whether or not the negotiations with Mitch McConnell over taxes were a success or too much of a compromise. But in a good reminder of how debates don't really reflect real life, like that argument inside of that is one of the core challenges for Democrats and will define what Democrats do next, right, where we compromise and where we don't and the lessons learned during the Obama administration. On Gillibrand, Tommy, I think you're exactly right. There's a reason we actually didn't talk about her very much to this conversation because she, I like Senator Gillibrand, I like her and she has good things to say, but she just felt.

I felt like she didn't know, she wasn't part of the actual debate that was happening that every time they went to her she had some like pre-planned thing that she was like taken out because that's a microcosm for her campaign she has not decided what the campaign is really about and there are times when she said I'm going to be the candidate that talks about

women's issues, women's rights and she leans into that and it sounds great. There's other times she decides she's And she leans into that and it's, and it sounds great. There's other times she decides she's going to be the candidate that talks about corruption. There's another time she talks, then she decides she's going to be the candidate who was originally elected in rural upstate New York and so can reach across the divide. And, you know, like she has like a three or four different central messages that she just sort of goes back and forth between. Right right it always felt like she was like at a 90 degree angle to the debate and not really there and it did was it was confusing and also you know she was standing next to somebody having one of the

greatest debates we've ever seen so it was it was over it was just it was overshadowed literally right next to her she did but i do think do think that after Bernie Biden, after the top four, you know, Gillibrand stood out. And I think you're right, Tommy. Like, Gillibrand and Bennett seemed to me the next two that sort of. I thought Klobuchar the night before, too. Oh, yeah. I was just talking the second night. Now, Marianne Williamson stood out for very different reasons.

Can we play the clip? Can we play the clip, please? Great segue. And Ms. Williamson with the last word. My first call is to the prime minister of New Zealand, who said that her goal is to make New Zealand the place where it's the best place in the world for a child to grow up. And I will tell her girlfriend you are so on because the United States of America is going to be the best place in the world for a child to grow up. I'm going to call the head of a country reeling from the most horrific mass shooting you could possibly imagine.

And say, fuck you, we're number one. You're on. You're on. We're going to have a competition with New Zealand to see who... Was she raised on the set of Designing Women? What is that cadence? I find that accent... I find it also baffling.

I wonder if her dude is like a mid-centrally mid-Atlantic No it is not mid-Atlantic because you know Roosevelt had a mid-Atlantic That's mid-Atlantic It was wild. Everything about the performance was wild Everyone last night finding all of her tweets

and tweeting them She's from Texas That is not Texas That is Texas by way of Los Angeles night finding all of her tweets and tweeting them she's from texas maybe that's why yeah that is not texas that is like that is that is texas by way of los angeles by way of europa the moon of jupiter look i i don't know if it's from jupiter just tell me i'm sorry if i got the moon wrong i'll google it i interviewed her here and she's a very lovely person and we had a nice conversation but i did think after the interview like like, I wonder how this is going to I wonder how this is going to go on a debate stage. Well, just because it's very I think that it's different.

It is different. It is different. You know, when she I feel like it's quite revealing when she's like asked an actual substantive question about about prescription drugs and this notion. about prescription drugs and this notion. The thing that I do think, like, I don't believe Marianne Williamson is a serious candidate. And, you know, come at me in my mentions, Williamson, I don't give a shit.

You're so brave. So brave. They have been attacked. Honestly. He's here to talk about the hard truths. Are they going to throw crystals at you? What are you worried about? Yeah, that's fine.

That's fine that's fine but uh uh um i guys i think there was someone in my house it smells like incense uh no but but uh the message around like first of all it's hilarious to be like i'm sick of all this superficial medicare for all discussion let's talk about let's talk about our 30 000 foot foot view of like how we're describing Trump. But the like the notion of don't forget that Trump campaigns on something deeper than policy and something deeper than rhetoric. This idea of fear and hate is driving his campaign and the kind of the deeper emotions that undergird our political debates right now. I do think there is value in somebody reminding us of that. I just don't think she's the right messenger for it. And I do. That's partly why I'm so disappointed in Cory Booker. But it is worth remembering to always come back to those first principles that we're not

fighting Donald Trump ultimately on policy. Those policies are a way of capturing our values and our understanding of the moment. That's all. So candidates who did well over the two nights, what do they have to do now to build on this momentum you're in a campaign now with a candidate who just had a good night what do you do i mean sadly what you have to do is raise money yeah and the deadline the deadline is sunday night i believe sunday night sunday night for this quarter and then next week we'll start getting all these numbers from everyone the quasi good news for most of the like just for democracy in general is most of these candidates were going to be focused on raising money from grassroots donors online for the next week.

Yeah. But you want like you have momentum. You got to use it like you better get to Iowa or New Hampshire, like have a town hall. You'll get more people than you would otherwise get. You'll get different people who saw you on the debate stage. Get those people signed up. Now's the time if you've been trying to get endorsements from local officials or other politicians. Now's the time to go make those calls. But you got to you got to come out of the gates blazing here in order to get something out of this.

What do you do if you're Joe Biden's campaign right now, aside from leak to the press that everything you did was correct, but it was your candidate's fault? Which seems to be what's been happening on that campaign, which I can tell you is fucking a garbage way to be yeah well that is first of all it's awful it's awful to do that it speaks really ill of somebody that would do that while working on a campaign that's it that's all i'm saying my guess is that they duck and cover and see what the next round of polling says yeah and then and then be able to say like see this didn't really matter this was a media creation which which sucks and that's a very trumpy way to approach politics but you know there's a whole world of people that argue that that's what you should do well in a weird bit of scheduling do you know where uh joe

biden is today oh isn't it rainbow push is it rainbow push just retweeted a photo with him and jesse jackson if i he'll probably be he's probably talking about this right he's gonna have to address probably dated right now so if i if i were one thought would be if I were them, I would find a way to address it. That will ultimately maybe just maybe stench, stench some of the damage. Stench, stench, stench, stench, stench, the bleeding. So maybe staunch some of the damage. Staunch the stench. Staunch the stench.

We'll just try to make stop. Avoid making matters worse. Figure a way out of this terrible cycle. And then what I would be looking for is a big rally where I could pick a huge fight with Donald Trump. That's what I would be doing if I were Joe Biden, pick a fight with Donald Trump, because when you're arguing with Donald Trump, you're in a much better position when you're arguing with Kamala Harris. Yeah, I agree. Biden has this advantage too, which is this is when he was in the middle of the two weeks ago blow up over Biden race around his praise of segregationists.

He was able to get people like Jim Clyburn and John Lewis to come out and speak on his behalf. And so he's going to do that again today because the hard part with what is so foolish of Biden's approach to this is he has very good parts of his record he can talk about in the years since then. Yeah. And he sort of mentioned them, but he could have just apologized and gone on to what he's done since. And that would be a compelling explanation for a mistake in his record. You know, one under discussed Biden

moment that was bad because there were so many of them was his Iraq war answer, which was like, well, you know, once I got to the White House, Obama put me in charge of getting all the troops back. I mean, he certainly did not get really pressed on his vote for the Iraq war or count for it in any way. It's going to be a hard one to duck with Bernie's next to you. One other thing about Biden too, is I would also look to get him out of it, get him out of his suit jacket, like go to the border, go, go, go be amongst the problem, be with people, be where people are being hit by this, this administration, be where the crises are like be the, you know, you have this electability argument people are buying they just want to win they want to be safe show them that you're safe and show them that you are sort of in the fight with them okay that's all the time we have for today um

next week schedule because the fourth um you're gonna hear from love it and me on monday i'm on vacation tommy's on vacation dan and i are going to record a mailovett and me on Monday. I'm on vacation. Tommy's on vacation. Dan and I are going to record a mailbag on Tuesday that will go out on Thursday, I believe. So we'll have some pods next week in case anything happens. Have a beer. Eat a hot dog. Fireworks rule. That's all I got.

Listen to our demagogue leader addressing the country on the 4th of July. Which clip do you guys want to play us out? Do you want Marianne Williams in New Zealand or Eric Swalwell torch? Can we get Andrew Yang just not being allowed to speak? Oh, we are going to get blown up by the Yang gang. Guys, hey, Yang gang, he didn't do well. He didn't speak. You have one job.

You have one job. In fairness, he didn't get called on much, but he didn't speak. You got to jump in. You got one chance to explain what UBI was, but then no one knew who you were or why you believe it's important. Here's some general advice for some of these peripheral candidates. Try to be somewhere between Delaney and Yang in terms of your approach to getting your words in. Don't go the full de Blasio, but you've got to jump in there.

And just a thought for Eric Swalwell. Pick up a torch and set these speeches you've written on fire. All right, we're out.