Pod Save America - “Helsinki warmed over.”

Episode Date: July 17, 2018

President Trump betrays America by siding with Vladimir Putin over the United States, a few days after our government indicted 19 Russian military operatives for sabotaging the 2016 election in order to help Trump win. Then journalist Marcy Wheeler joins Jon, Jon, and Tommy to talk about the next steps in the Mueller investigation, as well as her decision to go to the FBI and become a witness.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Levitt. Tommy Vitor. Later in today's pod, we're going to talk to independent journalist Marcy Wheeler about President Trump's meeting with Putin and about the latest indictment in the Mueller investigation, which includes the most detailed accusations we've seen so far about Russia's interference in the 2016 election.

Lots to talk about today, guys. But first, some promotions. We had a fantastic Love It or Leave It. You should download it now. It was a very good episode. We had Professor Malina Abdullah. We had Kate Willett. We had Megan Gailey. It was an awesome conversation. There was actually some debate about the

Democratic Party. Some very, very important stuff about Starbucks. Cold foam. Check it out. Pod Save the World this week. It was a very fun one. We talked about the Politics of the World Cup with Roger Bennett from the Men in Blazers podcast, which is absolutely hilarious. They're in Mother Russia. All these countries

are competing on the soccer pitch, so they don't fight wars. It's interesting. It's not depressing. Check it out. And The Wilderness has launched on Monday. It's out. The first four episodes. So check it out. Thewildernesspodcast.com. This is my documentary about the history and future of the Democratic Party.

You can listen to episode one is about the history of the party. Episode two is about the Obama years. Episode three is about the 2016 election. And episode four is about the focus groups I did with voters in Texas and Michigan. And we talked to some pollsters about the state of the party there. So check it out. Check it out. Check it all out.

The conversations are fascinating. Fascinating conversations. That's what we do here at Cricket Media. Let's have one. Okay. Excellent segue, Tommy. On Friday, American prosecutors indicted a dozen Russian military operatives

for sabotaging our 2016 election by hacking and stealing emails, analytics, and other sensitive information from the Democratic Party in the Clinton campaign. Today, at a press conference with Vladimir Putin, President Trump sided with the Russian president over America's own law enforcement and intelligence agencies, saying this, quote, my people came to me, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats came to me, and they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I'll say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.

Guys, I know we deal with truly awful, dishonest, unhinged Trump comments every hour of every day, but today really does feel different. Trump comments every hour of every day. But today really does feel different. To me, there are a few moments of the Trump presidency that I think will truly stand out in history as the most disgraceful Muslim ban, Charlottesville, family separations. And now I would include the Putin press conference in Helsinki. In front of the entire world, basically, the President of the United States betrayed his own country to defend one that sabotaged our own elections. I want to get your reactions to this. But first, we have a special guest in studio. He tried to get a few questions out at the press conference in Helsinki,

but he flew back and he's here with us today. Joining us on the pod is Joe America. Hello, it is me, Joe America. I've just returned from Helsinki. I have to say, I feel as though you were watching a different press conference than me. I saw a man lead from behind. I was there, obviously, as correspondent for NRA TV, hired by a lovely woman who owned a furniture store, but also involved in politics, deeply strange. Anyway, I thought Trump did very good, very strong. He is leading from behind, very far behind.

I feel like you people have lost your minds. It was a very cool event, very cool. I was in some place called Hall of Mirrors, Hall of Mirrors, because it is on the nose, as you people say, as I say, American. Anyway, NRA, very good, pro-America NRA times USA forever. Thank you, Joe America. We just thought we had to leaven this a little bit.

It was a tough day, bad day of news. And so thank you to Joe America. Tommy, what were your reactions watching this Monday morning? Well, I just want to agree with everything Joe said. But then today felt different. Well, first of all, agree with everything Joe said. But then it did today did feel today felt different. It was it was it was. Well, first of all, it was fucking disgraceful. I mean, to watch we're used to Trump complaining about the missing server and complaining about Clinton and, you know, the election results at at rallies or on Twitter.

But like to see him do that at a joint press conference with a foreign head of state was just it outlined how crazy and pathetic it actually is um he didn't offer even a mild rebuke of putin not a single harsh word he attacked muller hillary the dnc stroke a pakistani gentleman like he was all over the map but not a single word about election interference all the things they're doing uh in syria or anything else like He tried to use the same rhetoric he used on North Korea to spin himself out of criticism, saying, oh, we should have had this dialogue a long time ago before I got to office, sort of missing the fact that the U.S. talked to Russia all the time. In fact, you guys used to attack Obama over the Russia reset all

the time. So it did feel like the reaction was different, too. And we spent a couple hours in the office just watching Fox News, and they actually were pretty hard on Trump. A lot of Republicans were hard on Trump. So I think we learned something today. You can get criticized from the right if you coddle Putin. Both sides debate between literal Nazis and Klansmen. And if you show any compassion towards immigrants by proposing a DACA fix, those are the things that will get you attacked by the right in this country. Lovett, do you want to do a reaction in the John Lovett voice? Yes, sure. I think that'd be better. It was fascinating to watch in some ways because this is not, it's both surprising and not surprising. It is not surprising that Donald Trump stands next to Putin and says exactly

what he's been saying all along, right? This is the exact tenor he's taken, the deeply strange and hard to explain tenor that Trump has taken towards this one country. No problem standing next to Merkel and criticizing her. No problem going after the UK in an interview, but stands next to Putin and he can't find the words to be critical at all. He just shrinks. And yet it is still surprising. And one thing that I thought was really fascinating today in watching the reaction is something flipped. I have never seen so many reporters, politicians, including Chris Wallace of Fox and all the way to NPR openly talking about whether or not Vladimir Putin has damaging information about Donald Trump. I mean, this is an extraordinary thing.

We're so used to it now because we've been hearing about Compromat for such a long time, but that we're openly discussing it. That, to me, feels like the shift. I mean, we were talking about this before we started about what Adam Davidson said about us reaching the end game. We were talking about this before we started about what Adam Davidson said about us reaching the end game. And this does feel like – It's like we're getting close to the truth. I don't know if we're getting any closer to the truth. Although I think we're getting a lot closer to it being a completely okay thing to say for everyone to call bullshit and say how disgraceful that was. I mean they cut back from the press conference to Anderson Cooper.

And Anderson Cooper is like that was the most disgraceful thing I've ever seen from a president on foreign soil. And then you have Chuck Schumer doing a press conference today where he said, I'm left to believe that they have compromising information on President Trump. I mean, things that I think were seen as fringe or things we kind of joked about about the P-tape are now mainstream and real. And I just think like one thing that kept coming to my head about the setting was like they're in Helsinki. They're in Finland. They share a border with Russia. They've had to build up their military in recent years because there's a real credible threat from the Russian military right on their border. And Trump goes into this meeting by selling out NATO and the EU. And then he's coddling Putin in this event in Helsinki.

I mean, it is terrifying. These are like very real stakes for the people living in that country for the entire world. And our country looks like a joke. You mentioned Chuck Schumer. I want to get to his question from his press conference, which I think sort of sums it up, which is what could possibly cause President Trump to put the interests of Russia over those of the United States? I think that's the sort of the big question hanging over all this. But before we get there, Tommy, I want to take a step back. A U.S. official directly involved with the Helsinki summit told CNN, this was not the plan.

What a moment of candor. If this wasn't the plan, why did they make that red treason button for it to press at the event? You didn't see the treason coin they made with Putin and Trump on it? My question was, what was the plan? Why have this meeting in the first place? What could the Trump administration possibly think the United States would gain from this? Putin wanted this meeting, right? The easiest thing for Trump and the Trump administration to do would have just been to say, no thanks, we're all good on the meeting.

This could become very awkward. Trump could say something crazy. Why? What were they hoping to achieve with this meeting? It's easier to not fly to Helsinki than to fly to Helsinki, you know? That's why we have you on the show. Honestly, I think the only... No one ever goes to Helsinki by accident.

Yeah. It seems like the only reason they had this summit was because a whole bunch of people told Trump not to have the summit. You're right. He was just fucking hell-bent on doing if you, if you take him at his word, he thinks that if he's buddies with Putin, he can turn to him at dinner and say, why don't you knock it off in Syria? Or why don't you help us out with North Korea? But that's just not how Putin works.

That's not how the world works. So it was ill considered. There was no preparation. His own team didn't seem to go into this thing with much of a plan. They weren't allowed in half of the fucking meeting. I mean, those two translators. And how strange is that, by the way? Very strange. Like, I think Obama probably had one-on-one meetings with, like, Bibi Netanyahu or David Cameron. With no no-takers, president or staff?

Yeah, like, really, really close allies. The idea of going into a meeting with Vladimir Putin with just a translator is very odd. I mean maybe on the edges of a summit you – To pull aside or something. Pull aside. Maybe there's something that is really delicate that you only want to say in the smallest possible setting or like you don't trust Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister, if you're talking about Medvedev when he was in power. But this is a weird – this is setting Trump up for failure because Trump is stupid and Putin is pretty crafty. So now for the big question, is there any explanation for Trump's love of Putin and refusal

to take Russia's election sabotage seriously other than the obvious one, what is now the obvious one, which is that Russia has something on Donald Trump. And we should go through what something could be because, you know, everyone's like, haha, the P-tape. We joke about the P-tape all the time. But there's other things that he could have over him. There could be a financial reason, right? We've talked about, you know, and Don Jr., idiot Don Jr. said this before, like a huge cross-section of our assets are from Russia. We know that Trump bought a whole bunch of properties in cash. There could be money laundering.

So there could be that. Those are the financial reasons. There's also the very simple one that if Trump did accept Russia's help in the election, if there was collusion, then Russia has that over Trump, right? But so what possible explanations could there be for this that don't involve having something on, having leverage on Donald Trump? So there's one, there is one. And this is where you have this overlap

of the fact that the Trump character is like overwritten, right? Because it would be enough for him to be a TV host with like a personality disorder. And it would be enough for him to be a compromised foreign agent criminal. But it's both at all times. And there is absolutely truth to the idea that if Donald Trump were to admit that the

Russians interfered with the election to help him win, it would be admitting that in some way his election is illegitimate. And it's absolutely true. And he's not as great as he thinks he is. He's not as great as he thinks he is. His ego can't take it. It's absolutely true. And he's not as great as he thinks he is. He's not as great as he thinks he is. His ego can't take it. It's too embarrassing. He would – he just can't – he can't bring himself to concede that.

And so no information can confirm that to him. I think that that is a reasonable part – not all of it. It's a reasonable part of his behavior. I don't think it's enough to explain the slavish devotion to Vladimir Putin, the refusal to criticize him on any front, right? Because the reason that that explanation is not enough is because Donald Trump is not just solicitous of Putin on the issue of Russian interference. He's also solicitous of Putin on the issue of Ukraine and Crimea and NATO and Europe and all the rest and elevating Putin and being so kind to Putin. So I don't believe that just the narcissistic

explanation is enough. And I think the biggest reason why the narcissistic explanation is not sufficient is that Donald Trump's praise of Vladimir Putin did not begin after the election once it was revealed that Russia interfered in the election. All through the 2016 campaign, he praised Vladimir Putin and praised him as a strong man and excused the murder of journalists and imprisoned and all the human rights abuses that he had. He did that all through 2016?

Maybe he just digs kleptocrats with authoritarian tendencies who are into white ethnostates. I think that's a truth. There is a kindred, well, that's the kindred spirit explanation. Oh, okay, so they're just like buds. The kindred spirit theory. He has leverage over them, there's the ego, there's the kindred spirit where both authoritarians

just sitting here in the world in 2018 trying to figure our way through the world. Just a couple of pee tapes. Can I just flag one really fucking weird thing from this press conference that got some attention? figure trying to figure our way through the world just a couple of a couple of p tapes uh can i just flag one really fucking weird thing from this press conference that got some attention in his opening statement trump uh said i know where you're going with this he brought up russian interference with putin and then he was like but i'll let vladimir address it directly because he raised an interesting idea so then putin like 20 minutes later goes on to say that uh the russian

federation will let mull let Mueller come to Russia and Russian officials will interview the Russians that Mueller wants extradited and that representatives from the team can sit in on that. But there's a big catch, which is that Putin wants access to U.S. persons, including intel officers, agents, whatever, who he claims committed illegal acts against Russia. Then he cites Bill Browder, who wrote a book called Red Notice, who's this like billionaire who was basically driven out of Russia because he was trying to fight for his friend, Sergei Magnitsky, who was killed. There's a great pod save the world on this. Check it out. And says that Browder's associates funneled money to Clinton. So it seems to me that the interesting idea is that we give over U.S. intel agents to Putin to be questioned and harassed and maybe Bill Browder too.

Like, what the fuck? That's not interesting. That's batshit crazy. And Donald Trump's called it a great idea. He's like, cool. Fantastic. Wonderful idea. Literally the plot of the villains of the film Spectre.

And it's like all Putin had to do was cite the idea that Clinton might have gotten money somehow in this scheme and he's like oh great my my default fall guy hillary clinton let's go there yeah that was uh that was pretty weird right that was pretty weird okay so it's the false it's the false equivalence right it's the it's the it's the the idea that uh you know like he he hears from putin he hears from u.s intelligence who can decide right that can decide, right? It's the underlying explanation for how you could say something so ludicrous. So the White House spin on this, which they funneled through

Jonathan Swan of Axios, was his brain can't process that collusion and cyber attacks are two different things. That's not spin. That is like worse. Here's a tip. Whenever you're a White House official telling a reporter,

the president's brain can't process X. Boss is too dumb. Yeah. Put it on background. This isn't a crime thing. The president's brain's all broke, and we got a broken president brain, and it's a classic case of broken president brain,

and everybody's getting all crazy because they think that some crime's happening. Really, it's just that the president can't process simple facts. You've got a McRib stuck in there in 86 and he's not working. It's mostly special sauce up there at this point. Their next explanation, he seems constitutionally incapable of taking anything Mueller finds seriously. Again, when you say that the president is constitutionally incapable of something, that's a problem. And then they also went on to tell Swan that a lot of them are not proud of the man they work for right now you're

kidding well yeah we'll keep a hold we won't hold our breaths for the resignations you cowards have been saying that's in charlottesville and not one of you has quit in protest uh just a quick shout out to reuters and the ap by the way they did a great job at that press conference and really like asked him simple questions and he fucked. Like, that's the model. It was quite good. No, I mean, look, I think the upshot of this is whatever the reason, Donald Trump is in this for himself. He only cares about himself, his own interests, his own ego,

saving his ass, whatever it may be. He is not thinking about the United States. He's not thinking about America's interests. It is not just on this issue. It is on every single fucking issue and every decision he's made and every statement he's uttered since he's become president. The man does not care about anyone but himself. He will throw his family under the bus. He will throw his aides under the bus. He will throw the United States under the bus.

And he will throw the United States allies under the bus. And he showed all of that during that press conference today. And today was a disgrace. And it showed all of that during that press conference today. And today was a disgrace. And it was pretty universally immediately described as such. But remember, the Trump people described the Access Hollywood tape release date as this big inflection point where you were either with Donald, you were ride or die for Trump, or you were not and you were out of the club permanently. He has trained everyone around him to have blind loyalty. And the only people that will be able to weather this with him will tell him that he was great.

So they're never going to course correct. They're never going to fix this, even if he gets hammered from the outside. Well, they're scared of him. They're scared of him. Yeah. Although, as you mentioned, you guys mentioned we were talking about some of the reactions.

Let's go through some of the reactions from conservatives and Republicans because I don't think I've seen anything like this since the Access Hollywood tape or Charlottesville or Charlottesville yeah um one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory Republican Senator John McCain shameful Republican Senator Jeff Flake an affront to American democracy GOP Congressman Peter Roskam I've seen Russian intelligence manipulate many people in my career. I never thought the U.S. President would be one of them. Republican Congressman

and former CIA agent Will Hurd. Disgusting. Fox host Neil Cavuto. An idiot savant. Geraldo. I feel like that is also a backhanded compliment. So let's not forget that. No negotiation is worth throwing your own people and country

under the bus. Abby Huntsman, Fox & Friends host and daughter of U.S. ambassador to Russia John Huntsman, who sat there and did nothing and is somehow still ambassador today, did not resign. You maybe get your dad on the blower, Abby. See what he thinks. So, you know, obviously everyone on Twitter, when all these Republicans make their statement, we go through a cycle that we usually go through, which is a Republican makes a statement that is mildly critical of Donald Trump or, in this case, very critical of Donald Trump.

And everyone's like, OK, fuck you, pal. Why don't you go do something about it? So what are some actual steps that Republicans could take as opposed to just issuing sad tweets, sad statements, being outraged, going on Fox and saying that they're troubled? Well, at Dan Pfeiffer had some good tweets about this today that I'd like to read from. So a few things that are pretty simple. They could pass legislation to protect the special counsel's role in investigation. They've been talking about this for months. They've all said it's not necessary. It's not time.

Hey, Mitch McConnell, step up and do it. You could subpoena Trump's taxes or business records. That seems like it's not going to happen. But hey, why not? That we'll find out if Russia has any financial leverage over the president. Right. The current sanctions regime against Russia has a lot of discretion for the executive branch that allows them to opt out of some of it. They can make them tougher.

fucking emails like three years later and maybe hold hearings about how we can protect future elections given that the dni says it's a blinking red light moment from russia attacks like pre-911 uh so those are some things speaking of the dni uh after after saying that he believed after saying that he believed president putin over his own intelligence agencies the director of national intelligence dan Dan Coats, was forced to release a statement saying, by the way, we still believe that because the evidence shows that Russia interfered in our election. How do you keep working in that building? If you're the CIA or the State Department or the DNI's office, this guy just cuts your, sweeps your legs up in front of you every single day, humiliates the leadership of your agency. How do you work there?

I mean, David Ignatius made this point in his piece over the weekend, which is like, imagine those intelligence officials. Imagine the people who've worked to uncover these crimes from Russia that helped Mueller with this indictment on Friday. And imagine all the work they've done and all the risks they've taken. And then they report out the information and they watch the president of the United States stand next to the man that committed these crimes, that directed these crimes, and say he believes them over you. People have died. People have died over this. We already know that people connected to the Steele dossier have been killed.

So we're talking about a situation where a foreign adversary has committed one of the most brazen and successful attacks against us in American history. It is not only confirmed by intelligence agencies. It is now validated by dozens of charges by the FBI. And the president of the United States just doesn't give a shit. Yeah. So we talked about some of the Republicans that criticized Trump. But the question is, will Republicans do anything about this? And if not, why?

You had Rand Paul, Ron Johnson, who took a trip to fucking – how great do those Republican senators who took a trip to Russia over the Fourth of July weekend look right now? Ron Johnson was one of them. Richard Shelby. All of them today minimized the threat to our elections, basically said no big deal. There's still some leftover stroganoff in the fridge, you know? That stuff's still good. That's how recently they were there.

Mitch McConnell said nothing so far. This is our recording this Monday night. But, you know, Mitch McConnell's the same person that refused to let Barack Obama put out a statement, a bipartisan statement warning everyone that Russia was interfering in the election during the election in 2016. So that's Mitch McConnell. So do we think anything's going to change? Do you think Republicans will do anything about this?

No, because like for all the good statements we read, you still have your fucking subtweet heroes like Paul Ryan and Marco Rubio. We're like, Russia's a bad actor on the world stage. They clearly hacked our election. But I'm not actually going to name Trump in my statement because I want you to know what I'm thinking, but I'm not going to say it because I'm a pathetic coward. Yeah, it's it really like the worst kind of statement is the Paul Ryan or Rubio statement, which says that states the fact that it states as if they're agreeing to the fact that the intelligence agencies have made this conclusion is somehow impressive. As I've long stated, Russia interfered

in our election, and I believe we should take it seriously. Statements from senators and members of Congress that say, here's what the president should do, or here's what happened, without saying, and if the president doesn't, I believe we should do X, Y, or Z, are completely useless. They're completely useless. You know, Joni Ernst released an absolutely ridiculous statement, which said that, I hope behind closed doors, the president was much tougher. Oh, so you're hoping that behind closed doors, the president was a different person. Trump was a different person behind closed doors. So it is incredibly discouraging. You know, like Jeff Flake. Jeff Flake put out a fine statement. John McCain put out an incredibly tough statement.

It's almost like someone needs to remind these guys that they're some of the most powerful people on planet Earth. Particularly – Hold up a Supreme Court nominee. Right. I was going to say particularly with the fact that the Senate right now is 50-49 without McCain there. You have a lot of power in the Senate particularly when the margin is that close. in the Senate, particularly when the margin is that close. And I actually just don't want to move off of that because it is, I think, it speaks to the larger cultural rot that Trump has been able to exploit. It's this feeling again and again

that something really bad happens, something unprecedented happens. It's awful and sad and breaks your heart and then nothing changes. And part of the reason that happens is there are a lot of people in power who, for personal reasons, for political reasons, for structural reasons, don't know how to use it. They don't know how to exploit it. They don't want to take advantage of it. They're afraid to use their power. They're afraid to actually be part of history. And if there's one recurring theme of the Trump administration, it's that over and over again, people are given the biggest test of their lives and they fail again and again and again. And we're seeing it right now. Were you reading The Secret over the weekend?

I did not read The Secret, but I do believe in The Secret. I do believe that you can will positive changes into the world by truly expecting them to happen. Well, so here's something even darker. It brings us to yet another explanation for why Trump acted the way he did today. And that is because he wanted the help and he still wants the help. We keep talking about everything,

what happened in the past. This is history, but it's not. Like, as you said, Tommy, Dan Coats, the director of national intelligence, you know, said just the other day, all the lights are flashing red. Putin intends to interfere in our election again in 2018. He could do it again in 2020. And a lot of these Republicans and specifically Donald Trump probably want the help because they know that Putin's on their side. So the question is like, it's not just about figuring out what happened.

It's about figuring out what happened so that we can protect future elections from interference. And the reason that so many of these Republicans need to take this seriously and that Democrats should be screaming from the rooftops is not just so that we can, like, hope that Mueller indicts a bunch of people, but that we can make sure that in 2018 and 2020, our democracy isn't subverted. Yeah, I feel like there's two fears. They're both awful, and one is cataclysmic. There's the awful fear, which is that, once again,

the Russians, these foreign actors are going to exploit the weaknesses in our press, weaknesses in cybersecurity to steal things and leak them, sow division, try to undermine the people that they want to lose. And that's a frightening outcome. I hope that we have adapted. I do think that because Trump is now president, in a lot of ways, the world has changed. We've talked about this. The impact of leaked emails now would be like, leaked emails, go fuck yourself. We got bigger fish to fry. I do think they'd make news. I don't think we'd be totally able to put them aside, but I think we'd handle it with a little bit more maturity. I think each time there

have been these big leaks, we've done that. But then there is this deeper fear, which is, other than integrity, you look at what's happened in our system and you say, well, what is to stop them from attacking the actual electoral systems. And that's the unspoken, uncertain, terrifying outcome. And we are still at least partially protected by the fact that we don't have a national voter registration rate. It's state by state and county by county. It's hard. But I think that we are fooling ourselves if we believe that there isn't a chance that we will wake up the day after an election and not know that it was stolen from us. I do not share your confidence that we've matured in any way as a press corps, as a body politic.

If you look at like the Sony hack to 2016, I think we sort of reacted in the same way that allowed ourselves to be used by a corporate action program. I do take some confidence in the fact that the Russians hacked a whole bunch of emails in advance of the French presidential elections. And they have a whole different set of rules over there, but it didn't impact the outcome. Russia wanted Marine Le Pen to win. Macron won, so they didn't get the outcome they wanted. I think there's a lot of 2016 that was a black swan event in many ways, as we've discussed in the show and will hopefully never discuss again.

But it would be great if Congress actually focused and held accountable DHS or the DNI or any of the relevant agencies and said, what have you done in the last year and a half to protect us? Yeah. And I do think – I mean I am very worried that reporters, especially political reporters, have not learned the lesson of 2016 when most of them reported on these stolen emails and and helped spread this misinformation and i i really i guess it doesn't do us much good to predict whether they have or haven't but it doesn't matter if you have info wars and fox news and breitbart and daily caller like yeah i guess i guess i don't i guess maturity is the wrong phrase i i guess i just mean that we're in a state of crisis every single day. There's a ongoing crisis. And somehow in a politics that is in crisis, it doesn't feel as though leaked emails, hacked emails can make as much of a dent. That doesn't

mean they won't get the unfair coverage. That doesn't mean they won't be exploited. It doesn't mean it won't be reported on. But somehow I just think not because we're better people, but because we're in worse situations that that it won't it can't make the same difference. I mean, that's my that's and I and obviously that's plausible. That's that's what I think. One thing we haven't talked about the press conference on Monday wasn't an isolated incident, even in the last week it was the grand finale of trump's fuck you europe tour uh where he attacked america's oldest and closest allies on sunday he called the european union a foe he was asked who are america's foes and he

started with the european fucking union um he bad-mouthed british prime minister theresa may he attacked the mayor of london he He said European Union leaders are destroying their country's culture by legally welcoming immigrants and refugees. Tommy, what kind of damage does this do to our relationships? Is this something that we can like brush off? Is this something that's going to have far-reaching consequences? Consequences? If he is able to pull us out of NATO or help splinter NATO, that is maybe unfixable damage. NATO was intended to keep Europe together, keep them from fighting and sort of tie their military alliance and security to us.

It has been incredibly successful. But if, you know, if it goes a different direction, I don't think that's fixable. I don't know why he is picking all these fights with European allies. I think he has a fundamental misunderstanding of trade and what it means to run a trade deficit. He thinks that they all owe us money. But it certainly benefits these nationalist parties that are already on the rise in Europe. I mean, you're seeing it in Hungary, in Italy, in Turkey, Erdogan's been autocratic, and Trump was apparently praising him at the NATO meeting and giving him a fist bump and saying, my boy, Erdogan knows how to do things like what, like what lock up all his opponents and crack down on, you know,

civil liberties. So he's creating massive rifts and he is peeling apart alliances that have been helped, created by us and have benefited us for decades. And that's very hard to fix. And again, all of these actions that he took, everything he said, lines up perfectly with Vladimir Putin's goals to break up NATO, to at least rupture the alliances of Western democracies, to at least rupture the alliances of Western democracies, to ally himself with strongmen and dictators and right-wing nationalist parties. It's pretty scary. It's very scary.

Yeah, I don't think he's, when he's talking about culture, I don't think he's talking about like the decline of French New Wave cinema or like the Tempest. I'm really glad you brought that language up because that when he says those things he means non-white people are moving into europe of course it is so gross and fucking blatant and i really had a hard time watching the press corps goof

around with him in that previous press conference when he was with Theresa May outside of London because he wasn't allowed in London because he was scared of a tiny balloon. So much. There's so many things. But I mean, it was nakedly racist. Did that balloon work? Is Trump still president?

Yeah. And I just hope that after he said that in Europe, we just stop fucking pretending that any of his rhetoric or policies on immigration are about gangs or crime or national security or the economy or anything else. What he said is indistinguishable from what white nationalists say about immigration. Because in Europe, he wasn't talking about illegal immigration. He was talking about legal immigration. He was talking about welcoming refugees.

legal immigration. He was talking about welcoming refugees. Yeah, it's just to bring it full circle. Tucker Carlson today was talking about Russian election interference. And he said all kinds of countries interfere. I think Mexico has done more to interfere with American elections, because they're trying to, quote, pack our electorate. No. What? Yes. Oh, yeah. They are trying to pack our electorate. So Tucker Carlson, who has- You pee one time and you miss horrible things. It's unbelievable. That's what happened to Donald Trump. He said- Yeah.

Yeah, you pee one time. It's like you pee one time. Next thing you know, you're standing there. Next thing you know, you're president. Exactly. Sorry, you're making a very important serious point it connects these two things right because uh um tucker carlson is using white nationalism to explain away uh traitorous treasonous behavior and that's another thing by the way that's another word that for a very long

time uh i was reluctant to use because you know know, treason's in the Constitution, right? It's not – Well, the definition is and what people complained about before is to commit treason, the United States has to be at war with another country and you have to do something in the interest of that country. We are – even though Russia launched a cyber attack against us, we are not officially at war with Russia. So therefore, it's not treason.

That's what people said last time. But my problem with it wasn't that it was not technically defined according to the rules of the Constitution. It's that it felt like the kind of bombastic rhetoric of Twitter of people crossing the Delaware every single day. But I think what's different today is you watch Trump and Putin on that stage, and it is treasonous. It is. He betrayed the country. He betrayed the country.

He did. The President of the United States betrayed America. And it's not you saying that. It was John Brennan, former CIA director, saying it was nothing short of treasonous. So very serious people. And John Brennan is not some resistance hero know, resistance hero on Twitter crossing the Delaware. No. As you said, John Brennan has seen every secret, knows every secret this country has and has seen every piece of intelligence, the most sensitive intelligence in the world, throughout the eight years that Barack Obama was president.

So for John Brennan to be as upset as John Brennan is, he knows some shit. Yeah. And that actually, just one more point about that, he does know some shit. And that's actually one of the most enraging parts about this, because there's a lot of Republicans who spend their days and nights covering for Donald Trump, and they have no fucking clue what they're covering for. They are protecting him and acting as though what he's doing is normal. They don't know what secret he's trying to keep. They don't know the information. Brian Boiler always says this. The craziest thing about these Republicans

is they don't even know the crimes they're covering up. Yes. They are engaged in a massive cover-up for the president and they don't know what the crimes are. They're just blindly doing it. Devin Nunes is like, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll shut down any investigation. Paul Ryan's like, you do you.

I'm just going to turn the other way and just have a sad face for the camera. Go ahead. Just have fun. I don't know what the crimes are, but you guys go for it. Cover for Donald Trump by day. Get fooled by Sacha Baron Cohen at night. Matt Geitz, you are a moron. Between Sacha Baron Cohen and Maria Butina, were there any Republicans in some of these meetings?

Oh, yeah, we should talk about that. I mean, we've been referencing the Mueller indictments throughout this conversation. But let's talk about the new information we learned on Friday, which I think was four years ago. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein charged 12 Russian military intel officers with hacking both the DNC and Clinton campaign in 2016. The indictment also included details about how Russian hackers allegedly compromised our elections infrastructure. They stole personal information from 500,000 voters. That's another thing.

Like, you know, you say, oh, Donald Trump doesn't like Hillary Clinton up there. 500,000 people had their information stolen. Donald Trump's up there fucking just kissing Vladimir Putin's ass. And saying, hey, Russia, can you get her extra emails and then that day they try to find emails for the first time um the indictments talk about how an american congressional candidate apparently asked for and may have received hack documents about his opponent how russian hackers gained access to the clinton campaign team's analytics in september of 2016 deal, those listening. That helps you understand the entire game plan for the other side. That's like something New England Patriots might do. We film your practices,

we'll steal your playbook, we know how to whoop your ass. Oh my god, Tommy, I am so proud of you for that analogy. That meant the world to me for you to be that open to using the Patriots that way. I'm going to throw a lobster roll at your face. Well, actually, no, but to your point, just before you move on to that specific charge, one thing that a lot of people have noted, and obviously we don't know this yet, but this information is stolen from the Clinton campaign. And then within days,

all of a sudden there's all these announcements that the Trump campaign is changing their strategy, specifically changing their strategy about trying to stop the people that the Clinton campaign cares about the most, which is the exact kind of information that comes out of these kinds of analytics. Well, and also, I mean, there's, of course, after that tweet storm is out there, you know, Nate Silver, Joshua Green, who both, you know, know a lot about the election, written a lot about analytics and data, both said, you know, they, the Trump campaign didn't need this analytics to know that they were ignoring Michigan and Wisconsin and that was their play and they should end up blah, blah, blah.

But I think this is all beside the point. Yeah, I do need a gun to rob the register. I got my finger in my shoulder. Well, fuck off. They stole the playbook. What they did with the playbook, who knows? They stole the fucking analytics from the campaign. And if the Trump campaign somehow got their hands on that analytic information,

that's the crime. It doesn't matter what the fuck they did with it. But also, what was interesting to me is this wasn't just an attack on the Clinton campaign. It was an attack on the entire Democratic Party. They were going after the DNC, the DCCC, which is remarkable. And it broadens the whole thing. And then I just couldn't help read this but think Congress spent like 14, 15 hours last week kicking the shit out of peter struck for sending text messages where he was upset to a mistress that he never intended to be public

destroying the life of a guy who spent his career trying to block foreign adversaries from hacking us like a counterintelligence mission that was absolutely critical to preventing what happened they destroyed this guy rather than focus on the mission he used to work on. Well, and think about that in light of the press conference today. Gee, I wonder why Peter Strzok didn't like Donald Trump. So does half the...

You have a bunch of Republicans saying he's the most disgraceful thing they could imagine today. Most of his kids don't like Donald Trump. Right, no shit. It's a question that they don't ask. It's the follow-up question that doesn't come. That Trump and the Nunes people and all the rest are like, oh, there's the FBI, these agents, they're out there to get Donald Trump.

The intelligence community is out there to get Donald Trump. There's plenty of reasons to be critical of the intelligence community. But doesn't it give you any pause to know that all these career intelligence experts believe that Donald Trump is a threat? Does that not give you pause at all? I guess not. Not great. And the last thing we learned, and this was on Monday, the Justice Department charged a Russian gun rights advocate with acting as a Russian agent. Maria Butina attempted to set up a back channel line of communications between the Republican Party and the Russian government through the NRA.

Just a perfect bow on this whole fucking thing. And she tried to broker a Trump-Putin meeting during the 2016 campaign. Those NRA people, Dana Loesch, Dan Bongino, the Royd-raisingony, phony, phony, phony, phony, phony, phony, phony, phony, phony, So the NRA-Russia connection is now just coming to light with some of these other indictments. So that story, that's coming attractions for what we'll be finding out in the future. So we are going to ask our next guest all about this and more. We will have Marcy Wheeler, our journalist, who's been covering all of this on right after the break. You know what this story all feels like? What's that?

Helsinki warmed over. You know? Thank God all feels like? What's that? Helsinki warmed over. You know? Here's our... Thank God we got a title. It's so much better when you have one. You don't have to think about it after the pod.

Thanks, love it. You're welcome. All right, Marcy Wheeler after this. On the pod today, we have with us independent journalist Marcy Wheeler. You can read her writing on EmptyWheel.net.

Marcy, thank you so much for joining us. Awesome to be on. So you wrote today that at the Helsinki summit, Putin essentially reenacted the infamous June 9th, 2016 meeting that took place between Trump campaign officials and a Russian lawyer who promised them dirt on Clinton's campaign. What did you mean by that? June 9th, 2016 meeting that took place between Trump campaign officials and a Russian lawyer who promised them dirt on Clinton's campaign. What did you mean by that? So if people remember back on June 9th, 2016, a woman named Natalia Veselnitskaya

got a meeting from a guy named Rob Goldstone and Don Jr. offered Don Jr. dirt on Hillary Clinton. Don Jr. offered Don Jr. dirt on Hillary Clinton. He said, I love it, especially later this summer. And the meeting effectively was Veselitskaya coming in and pretending that Bill Browder had dirt on Hillary Clinton and then saying, please get rid of the Magnitsky sanctions, which the U.S. imposed on Russia for human rights violations. And subsequently, about a week after that, that's when the stolen emails from the emails that Russia had stolen from John Podesta and from the DNC started being released on a on a WordPress site. So you've got dirt on Hillary Magnitsky sanctions, free emails stolen from Democrats. And all of those factors, except for the well, all of those factors showed up in today's in today's hearing with Vladimir Putin, with Trump just sitting there looking like a little boy trying to get in, you know, trying to get approval from daddy.

Marcy, you have a Ph.D. I believe in comparative literature. Does it does it take a Ph take a PhD to manage Donald Trump? I mean, what do you make of the way he seems to be just like you said, he looked like a little boy, but even his posture, he just looked kind of defeated when he walked in there. Like, what do you think Putin has on this guy? We joke about the pee tape, but you think it might be worse? Yeah, I do. But you think it might be worse? Yeah, I do. I mean, one of the aspects of the election year attack that has gotten far too little attention is the fact that a presumed Russian persona was dumping NSA's tools all over the Internet. the other day that when that persona started doing that again in April, three days after

Trump bombed Syria in retaliation for an Assad attack on civilians, the theme was all about Syria, just as these themes. I mean, that's a that's a consistent theme and sort of what Trump is supposed to pay off to Vladimir Putin for his election year help. And I think there's stuff like that, that that Trump. I think it goes far beyond a P-tape. I think it goes and the Russians also are very good at getting. I mean, we've like after this, this is kind of a sidelight because there seems to be a Russian spy every day. After this, this is kind of a sidelight because there seems to be a Russian spy every day. But the NRA spy, Maria Butina, who was arrested over the weekend, dirt on Hillary for getting rid of the Magnitsky sanctions.

And I think that's what it's going to come down to. You wrote over the weekend that you suspect the reality is Mueller is close to taking steps that will lay out a case for conspiracies with Russia involving people very close to Trump. Are there any clues from what we've already seen laid out publicly about who those people might be, what the conspiracies might be, and how scared should Roger Stone be right now? Well, this is where I should probably confess that I went to the FBI on something.

I forgot the inside track. But I mean, I think that the June 9th meeting is real. And I would expect anybody associated with the June 9th meeting to be in a bit of trouble, particularly if Paul Manafort ever decides to get around to flipping. And his his trial is about 10 detail in Friday's indictment against 12 Russian military intelligence officers. And so he and Lee Stranahan, both of whom kind of had a role in pretending that Guccifer 2.0 was not Russian, I think that they're both probably in a bit of trouble too. And Mueller has spent much of the spring calling in witnesses on Roger Stone. So he's certainly got a lot of interest in that front. And so that June 9th meeting was Manafort, Kushner, Don Jr. Who else was in the brain trust that day? Is that about it? That's about it. There's a guy, Reena Akhmetchian, who was a lobbyist, but the lobbying

is kind of suspect. So he's an American citizen. There's another guy, Ike Cavallazza, who was a lobbyist, but the lobbying is, you know, kind of suspect. So he's he's an American citizen. There's another guy, Ike Cavallazza, who works for Aras Agalarov, who is sort of Trump's handler. Again, one of the things that Putin brought up today, he was asked point blank, do you have any compromise on on Trump? And he said, oh, I don't think I even knew that Trump was in the country in 2013 when he brought Miss Universe to Moscow, which is a lie because there are sworn statements everywhere saying that that Putin canceled a meeting with him at the very last minute. But I mean, how are you going to miss Miss Universe being shot from Moscow? That's like Trump, you know, core Trump and Putin half naked women culture. So it's a lie. But one of the things he was pointing to is that the Agalarovs, who set up the June 9th meetingarchs brought Trump to Moscow and celebrated him. And that was kind of the beginning of this of this cultivation of Trump that ended up in in them significantly helping him win the election in 2016. So you mentioned how you went to the FBI. A good amount has been written already about how you decided you'd reveal one of your sources to the FBI, essentially making you a witness in Mueller's investigation. You didn't name this person publicly, but you wrote in your blog about how you decided to do this after you

got a text sometime after the election about the possibility of Michael Flynn meeting with Syrian officials. I believe it was right after the election. What ultimately... Like 15 hours after the polls. I mean, it wasn't like, hey, let's get up and get rid of the hangover. It was like, let's get up and immediately start paying our debts. What ultimately pushed you to take this to the FBI? Well, it wasn't about the text.

It was about other things. You know, so this person, I think, played a significant role in parts of the attack. And it took some time before I was actually... Before I actually believed that was true. I mean, it was sort of like, you are crazy. And then I'd wake up the next day. I'm like, no, you really need to think about this. And so I first started trying long before I actually did and trying to kind of preserve more journalistic equities, go to the FBI and ask some questions and see if they start, you know, screaming. And then things

got more urgent. And so then I kind of gave up and just went to the FBI and sat down in a room with them. So it was a long process. I spoke to eight lawyers over the course of getting to the FBI and with a growing sense of urgency and panic, really. Marcin, you are an expert in national security, in civil liberties. You are a big fan of the Fourth Amendment, among others. I'm not a big fan of the FBI either.

Well, that's where I'm coming, that's where I'm getting to. Right, like you're a big civil libertarian. The first time you and I interacted was probably because you were kicking the shit out of the Obama administration for, you know, drones, name your overreach, you know, surveillance. You have come a long way on the question of Russia collusion over the past several years. Like, can you help

us understand your evolution and what got you to a place where you actually went to the FBI and now are seen as, you know, someone who is a part of this investigation rather than just reporting on it? Well, talk to me after this all breaks. No, I mean, I, from about June when it first started breaking to December, there were alternate theories. I had some other people pitch me with alternate theories, which might actually be part of what Julian Assange or the Russians were hoping to use as their plausible deniability. And beyond the fact that I'm a natural skeptic, I was testing all of these theories and meanwhile trying to figure out whether this person I knew was actually part of it. So I was juggling with those three things for a long time. And over time, more and more public evidence came out that showed that at least the case that Russia had hacked Podesta's emails. And oh, by the way,

we figured out that the emails first released by this Guccifer 2.0 figure were Podesta emails. So it kind of once you once you make that connection, you can sort of ignore the Julian Assange question for a little while. Although I think Julian Assange, you know, since since Friday, a lot of Julian Julian Assange's dead enders have been trying to understand why I think they're they're kind of claims about metadata are not sufficient to argue that Julian Assange can play dumb. But yeah, so it was a long process. And I like to say that some of like in the indictment Friday, there were several sort, I could point to paragraphs and say, this is where that source who talked to me in July is, this is where that source who talked to me in January is. So where that source who talked to me in in January is.

So, you know, I did talk to a lot of the skeptics all claim that all of this intelligence comes from the NSA. And that's simply not true. I mean, obviously, it comes from CrowdStrike. But there are many other places where the intelligence in Friday's indictment came from. And I happen to be well placed to talk to a bunch of those people as sources and even touch base with them since Friday. So it's actually not the case that it's all about CrowdStrike and the NSA. There was evidence everywhere that this was the Russians. And now in Friday's document, that's all kind of laid out. You don't know who it came from and everyone assumes it was the NSA, but that's not true. Do you think that at the very least the threads of what ultimately took place in the 2016 election with Russia, with Trump, are all out there in public right now? And it's a matter of sort of Mueller connecting them together for everyone? And it's a matter of sort of Mueller connecting them together for everyone? Or do you think that there is a good deal of this story that is still hidden that we will find out in the coming months? Well, my part's going to be a surprise for virtually everyone. But some of what I know was in public. I mean, some of what I went to the FBI with was, hey, look at this, That's public. I just was looking at it from a very different perspective than a lot of people.

And that's part of the core case, I think. You know, again, I the reason I went to the FBI is because this person played a significant role in the election attack, not because he got a text 15 hours after the polls closed or sent me a text 15 hours of the polls closed, making it clear he knew exactly what was going on inside the White House. And this is not a Republican and not somebody who has any ties to Trump. So I think that there will I assume it must be true that there are many witnesses like me who were witnesses to stuff that nobody knows about, who were watching people who no one's paying attention to who are part of this. And so, yeah, I suspect that that kind of case is going to be pretty, pretty surprising and pretty, pretty strong. I mean, I like I I've said this, that I never talked to Peter Strzok, who's the FBI agent that Trump attacked in Helsinki today. He wasn't anywhere near the testimony I gave to the FBI.

I wasn't actually speaking to the Mueller inquiry when I did. And I can point to things that between what I told the FBI and what I found, you know, shortly thereafter lying out there in public, I can get right to Trump. And so and I assume that's true via a number of means. And therefore, that Mueller's sitting on a lot. And he, I think, is going to roll it out. And if today is any indication, I mean, finally, we've got Republicans saying this is beyond the pale. We cannot have a president subject himself to hostile foreign power like he did, like Trump did today. I think we might see some momentum finally turning against Trump. Marcy, hey, it's John Lovett here. Quick question on level of surprise. Sixth Sense, what kind of a twist are we heading towards here? Is it more like the village where it's a bit disappointing, but and doesn't kind of hold together? What do you think? Oh, I'm so bad at pop culture. Please don't quiz me in public. No, I think there are some big plot twists. I did a series some months ago when when the questions that Mueller wants Trump to answer

came out and I laid it out. I'm like, this is clear quid pro quo. I mean, they went to Trump and said, we'll help you. We want sanctions relief. We want Syria throwing Ukraine. Maybe we'll throw in a Trump tower. And that's that's it. That's that is the basic equation we're talking about. Then throw in Israel and the Emirates and the Saudis and the head on a spike and basically all the most awful human rights abusers sitting in the Seychelles Islands with Eric Prince. And that's going to develop some and that's going to turn into kind of garden variety money laundering that also happens to be tied with the theft of the election. But the core story of an interesting definition of garden variety. What Home Depot are you going to?

Well, it's OK. It's, you know, the Versailles Garden all in gold leaf. Right. It's massive. It is massive corruption. And it's all of this. I mean, Eric Prince is, you know, I'm in I'm in a town with about 10 buildings named after him. And and it's perfect for him. Right. Because it's about making a lot of money off of killing people for other people and doing it to keep very powerful, corrupt, evil men in power. You know, I think that's that's the short story. And that's why Trump likes Putin so much and likes the Saudis so much and likes Bibi Netanyahu so much. So that's that's the narrative. But I but again, I think that the basic equation is this quid pro quo, the help for sanctions relief, the help for Syria and a Trump Tower thrown in because Trump will do anything for a Trump Tower. And a football phone. Hey, Marcy, we all kind of wish you worked for Bob Mueller, but you don't.

You're an independent journalist who writes about all these really important issues. How can people support your work if they like what they heard? Well, they can, you know, go to my site and dump money in my or just read it. You know, I write very weedy stuff and um finally you know when it like the last time i had this kind of following was during the cile case uh so i'm you know back to covering the big scandalous um legal case but emptywheel.net emptywheel.net and everyone can listen to marcy on the foreign policy episode of The Wilderness. We had a fantastic interview for that, too.

That was fun. Marcy, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you again soon. Awesome to be on. Thanks. Thanks to Marcy Wheeler for joining us today,

and thanks also to Joe Americo for stopping by. Hello. Have lovely holidays. Pretty soon, I hope you had good July 4th. Hello. Have lovely holidays. Pretty soon. I hope you had a good July 4th. It is the last one you will have. Next time holiday will be slightly different.

Joe, when's your sit-down with Chris Wallace? I thought the whole Federation was doing Fox News today. Oh, so I gave Vladimir bum steer by telling him to sit down. I'm in real trouble. I said, oh, Fox News is being nice. You know, I thought it'd be one of the idiots from the morning. One of the morning idiots? You're morning American idiots? But it was not. It was the Chris Wallace. It was one of the two good ones. And there's a real problem.

I'm going to... I'm very worried. Look, I'm not saying I walk around with Geiger meter, but I'm not... I'm a little worried about my tea having a little... You know, I'm afraid my tea may glow in the dark, if you understand. A little polonium in your tea, I hear you. Very nerve-wracking.

That's not Splenda. I don't want to think about it too much. Hard to sleep. Hard to sleep. Anyway, love the NRA, USA forever, Mar-a-Lago, adios. See you Thursday. Bye, guys. Thank you. Bye.