Pod Save America - Inside 2024 (Full Episode): John Legend on Celebrities Getting Political, Endorsing Biden, and Avoiding a Second Trump Presidency

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

John Legend joins Jon Favreau to discuss the impact of celebrity political endorsements, his political origins, working with Obama, and why a second Trump presidency would be a disaster. To unlock more episodes from our Friends of the Pod exclusive shows, sign up for Friends of the Pod on Apple. Podcasts or learn more about our community at crooked.com/friends  For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. So today we have a special sneak peek into this month's Inside 2024. And we got Jon Legend, which is really exciting. Jon and I talk about celebrity endorsements and his experience on the campaign trail with Obama. We also talk about 2024, Jon's thoughts on the 2024 race. He's going to be out there for Joe Biden. He's already endorsed him. He's going to be campaigning. And he talks about his thoughts on the 2024 race. He's going to be out there for Joe Biden. He's already endorsed him. He's going to be campaigning. And he talks about his thoughts on the race,

on the importance of endorsements, on the importance of why you should choose Biden over Trump. It's a fantastic interview. John is one of the politically savviest people I know. As I say in the interview, he could go run a campaign himself. So it's a fascinating conversation. Subscribe to Friends of the Pod at cricket.com slash friends. Enjoy. Welcome back to Inside 2024. I'm Jon Favreau. Our guest today needs no introduction, but I'll give him one anyway. He's an incredibly talented and wildly successful singer, songwriter, pianist, and performer who's reached EGOT status. He's also a longtime political activist and all-around wonderful human being. John Legend, welcome back to the pod. And a friend of the pod, let's be clear.

And a longtime friend of the pod. Let's be clear about that. Longtime friend of the pod. So we are doing this behind-the-scenes look at different parts of a campaign. Today we're focusing on endorsements and campaign surrogates, particularly celebrities. I thought you'd be a perfect guest because of all the celebrities I've seen to get involved in politics, you're at the very top of the list in terms of how politically savvy and deeply committed you are. I think you could probably run a campaign yourself. Do you remember at what point in your life

you first became interested in politics? point in your life you first became interested in politics? Oh yeah, I remember watching Jesse Jackson speaking at the 88 convention that nominated Dukakis. It was an incredible speech. And I was just so moved by his speech and I was so excited. I didn't understand that it was already a foregone conclusion that Dukakis was going to get the nomination at that point. and I was so excited. I didn't understand that it was already a foregone conclusion that Dukakis was going to get the nomination at that point. And I was just like, how could anyone not vote for Jesse Jackson after this speech he just gave? And I was just so like inspired by it. And then, you know, I had grown up with a sense of understanding of what politics means, a sense of understanding of what politics means,

particularly to black people, and how important it was for us to be engaged as a community, as a group of people who had been marginalized and had needed the protection of the federal government, needed to be organized politically to gain the rights that we have now. So I read about Dr. King. I read about all the people that organized this during the civil rights movement. And I read about their interactions with the presidents at the time and the time and marching for voting rights and for civil rights. And so I had a pretty clear, for that age, understanding that politics matter. They affect our lives.

And this is when you were a kid. Yeah, I was born in 78. So thinking about Dukakis, that was when I was 10 years old. And when I was a kid, I would go to the library. I was homeschooled a lot of my younger years and I would go to the library and I would like seek out books about civil rights leaders and people who were engaged in the political process to make a difference. And so I always looked up to those kinds of people and saw political engagement as part of being a citizen, as part of being a human being, really. Do you remember the first time you spoke out about politics? First time? I mean, I spoke out before people cared what I had to say. That's good. say. That's good. But, you know, I was a student at Penn and was engaged in the electoral process during that time. I think the first election I voted in was 2000. So I didn't vote in 96, but I voted, you know, Gore versus Bush. That was my first time. And as a lot of people might recall, the Iraq war, the lead up to the Iraq war happened a little bit after that.

You know, 9-11 happened in 2001. And the drumbeat of war started to be amped up and ramped up, leading us to the terrible mistake of invading Iraq. And I remember marching on the streets against the war in Iraq because I could tell something wasn't right about it and that we were being misled and that it wasn't really addressing what happened in 9-11 in any way. And I was upset about it. And so I was out on the streets protesting in New York among hundreds of thousands of people, really, who were speaking out against that war. And then, you know, I continued to stay engaged in presidential politics after that, but also got more of an understanding of what local politics mean, too. And as I've gotten older,

I've gotten more engaged in local and state politics mean too. And as I've gotten older, I've gotten more engaged in local and state politics too. Yeah, I was going to say, I know you've focused on education reform and justice reform. Tell me about your decision to get involved in those issues and what those early years were like. Yeah, I think really it was motivated just by me reading about things. So I would read books that kind of pushed me to think about some of these issues, like, you know, The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander and other books that, you know, made me feel a sense of urgency around making sure our kids got better schools and making sure our justice system was really reformed and we started to decarcerate. And so I focused on

both of those issues because I read a lot about them, cared a lot about them, and they connected with my own personal story quite a lot. And the more I read about them and understood them, I understood that the presidential election wasn't where it was at for a lot of those issues. There's so much that happens on a local and state level on both of those issues that it for a lot of those issues. There's so much that happens on a local and state level on both of those issues that it required a level of engagement in those elections, those races, that I hadn't thought about before. Did you find it frustrating, rewarding? How much progress were you able to see over the years as you actually dug in?

Honestly, particularly with incarceration reform, decarceration, and criminal justice reform, we've seen a lot of progress over the past decade or so. We started Free America about 10 years ago, and we've seen the levels of incarceration in the United States go down pretty significantly during that time. We've had, of course, kind of PR setbacks with the rise in crime during the pandemic. We've had other issues, but the fact remains true that we've actually seen quite a lot of decarceration in this country in that time that we've been focused on the issue. incarceration in this country in that time that we've been focused on the issue. And I feel like we as an organization and me as an individual have had a lot of impact on that conversation. I talked about it at the Oscars when I won Best Song for Glory with Common. I talked about

our mass incarceration issue. And I have been one of the main people in the public arena that have spoken up for decarceration and ending mass incarceration and making it something that was part of the national conversation. And it's been effective. district attorney races nationwide in major cities like Philadelphia and Chicago and Los Angeles and San Francisco. And we've helped elect a bunch of progressive DAs in some of the biggest population centers in the country, which has had a significant impact on those local communities. And just by numbers, you know, they represent a large portion of the population, despite only being cities. And so that's impacted the whole country. You mentioned how there was a spike in crime due to the pandemic, largely. And because of that,

there's been a political backlash against some of the progressive prosecutors and DAs and all the work that you guys have done. Have you thought about, now that crime's coming down again, it's come down again, have you learned any lessons from that in terms of how to move public opinion back to where it was on these issues? Well, you have to take the long view, first of all, understand that in that moment,

people are going to feel a sense of urgency about crime and they're going to attribute it to things that they want people are going to feel a sense of urgency about crime and they're going to attribute it to things that they want to attribute it to. If they're against progressive DAs, they're going to blame progressive DAs when crime goes up. But obviously, any kind of objective observation of what was happening would show you that it wasn't the progressive DA's fault that crime went up during the pandemic. There were all these other reasons and the pandemic was the main reason. And so now that we see crime going back down, it's become clear, I think, to anybody who's being honest about it, that it wasn't the progressive DA's fault that crime was going up

during that time. But they wanted to use that to roll back the progress that we had brought about. And so they used it. And we have to be vigilant, I think, and clear-eyed, but also sympathetic. Because when people are experiencing crime in their communities and an uptick in crime, it is, you know, it's concerning and people feel fear and it's legitimate fear. And you have to acknowledge people's fear and say, we acknowledge that and we genuinely are sympathetic to that. But we also want to do something that's smart and wise in response to what's going on. And just doubling back and going back to what we've done before that didn't work before isn't the answer. Yeah.

So I remember you were one of the first big celebrities to endorse Barack Obama back when we were still losing to Hillary Clinton by double digits. And I remember you headlining that concert in Des Moines right before the Jefferson Jackson dinner in November of 2007, I think it was. When did you first meet Obama? I met him in Chicago. I was touring to support the Once Again album, which came out in 06. And he, um, had, you know, gotten some publicity from the, um, 2004 convention speech. And so I knew about him from that. And then, uh, when we were coming to town to Chicago to do the tour, his team reached out to us and said, you know, we hear you're coming to town for the tour. Senator Obama would love for you to come by the office and meet him.

And I was like, absolutely. Came by. And he hadn't announced that he was going to run yet. He was thinking about it. And, you know, after the buzz that he got from the 2004 speech, you know, people were talking about him. to be the nominee for the Democratic Party in 2008. And so at best, it was going to be a long shot that he would even run. And if he did run, that he would get nominated. But I sat with him and enjoyed our conversation. We sat in his office and I told him, you know, at the end of the conversation, if you decide to run, let me know and we'll see what we can do to help. And, you know, he decided to run. He announced, you know, you remember it well, in Springfield, Illinois, you know, evoking Abraham Lincoln and started to really inspire the nation.

And I was happy to get behind his campaign and do what I could do to help. You did a lot. I mean, was that the most involved you were in a presidential campaign? Did you do stuff for Kerry at all? Barely. And when Kerry was running, I wasn't particularly well known. My first album came out in December of 2004. So after, you know, album came out in December of 2004. So after, you know, Carrie had run and lost. So, I mean, I was involved in politics, but not in any way that was like, elevating a particular cause because I wasn't elevated enough to do so. Our staff is interested in your thoughts on turning the New Hampshire primary night Yes We Can speech into a song.

Yes. Which for me is always a little weird and certainly a moment where I started thinking like, what on earth is going on here? What is happening? It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed the trail toward freedom. Yes we can. Yes, we can. It was sung by immigrants as they struck out the Pacific shore, flying high and pushed westward

against the unforgiving wilderness. How did that even come about? I haven't even watched that in so long. I'm so like, I don't know how it would hold up. Well, I know. It's almost like how the West Wing holds up.

But, you know, it was quite a heady time. People were genuinely inspired by Obama and Will.i.am, it was his idea to put the video together and he just called up a bunch of his friends.

Now, Will and I are friends. I just saw him this weekend, actually, at Formula One. But, you know, we had written songs together since 2002. We had the same manager at the beginning of my career. And we wrote Ordinary People together, written songs with him for the Black Eyed Peas. We wrote American Boy together, the big hit from Estelle and Kanye. So we had quite a history together. And so when he calls me, you know, to get involved in anything, I'm usually like, okay, let's do it. And of course, I had been involved in the Obama campaign already. And he was like, I'm trying to make a music video to

this speech. It was so inspiring. And I'm like, okay. And we like tried it. We were in there and tried to make it work. And we made a video. And it became a thing. It really became a thing. Yeah. 2008.

Feels like forever ago. It got a lot. It was like got so many YouTube views. It was crazy. It was like really massive. It went way further than we ever expected it to. Same. So I imagine that for a lot of celebrities, there's like, there's a good deal of thought and discussion that goes into deciding how and when to use their voice to speak out about

politics or endorse a candidate. You got to think about the potential blowback from fans who don't share your politics. You also got to think about whether a famous person getting involved will actually help the cause or candidate. How do you think about those things? Well, we try to be as wise as we can about where I can make impact. And it's not on everything. And I think like there's not always value to everything you do as a famous person. And sometimes there's maybe negative value to some of the things you'll do.

It may not be helpful. But I feel like on the issues where I really am deeply engaged in the content of the issues like criminal justice reform, and then where we're absolutely engaged with the activists and the organizers who aren't as famous as I am, we talk to them. We talk to them about their priorities. We talk to them about what they're trying to get passed and how we can be helpful. And sometimes they don't always want me to do all the things. They want me to come in when it's time for this particular thing that we need with public engagement to get the message out, to elevate an issue. John, can you make a video about this so that we can highlight this particular issue and get people organized around it?

John, can you show up at this fundraiser to help raise money for this particular issue or this particular candidate? raise money for this particular issue or this particular candidate. And so we try to be very engaged with the community, very good listeners and not big foot our way through every issue, thinking that we have all the answers. We listen and then we can engage when the activists and organizers on the ground tell us this would be helpful and useful for us. Yeah. I keep thinking about in that documentary, Miss Americana, Taylor Swift talks about how she regretted not speaking out in 2016 and really wanted to speak out. I think it was in 2018. And then, of course, she endorsed in 2020. But all of her people, including her dad, were very much like, this is bad.

You get blowback. Have you ever had to deal with that kind of? I think we all have to deal with it, but I do think it's harder in the country world where she came from because the kind of, you know, the inertia is in the direction of being a bit more conservative and patriotic in that genre and in that community of fans that listen to country music. And so I think it is harder for Taylor in that context

to speak out for the more progressive candidates than it is for a black artist who comes up through R&B and soul, which it's part of our tradition to be more progressive. It's part of our tradition to speak out for civil rights and particularly for the rights of black people in this country. You know, we have such a long line of artists that came before us that did it. And it's almost like it's part of our legacy and we just carry that forward. And so the inertia is actually in the direction of us being engaged and being active.

And I think for Taylor, the inertia was the opposite. It was in favor of her shutting up and singing. So I think it was riskier for her to do it than it is for me. But, you know, I'm on The Voice, which is nationally broadcast on NBC. We have fans all over the country and some of them are conservative. And I'm sure I alienate some of them by speaking out on some of these issues. And I'm sure that I may lose some fans because I speak out on politics. But I also think that I probably gain some fans by speaking out on some of these issues too, because I think most fans want their artists to be authentic and honest and to believe in something and stand for something. And so I think a lot of fans are attracted to artists who aren't silent on issues that matter.

How have you dealt with being not just in a spotlight for your day job, but for politics? I'm sure there's been some blowback from you and Chrissy. Yeah, of course. Like, you know, on Trump's radar, at least your wife is. We were on Trump's radar. Obviously, he tweeted at us and he's always had an issue with women who speak up, especially. And so, you know, I had been on a Lester Holt special about mass incarceration on MSNBC on a Sunday night, which, why is he watching this? Like, what would make Trump watch MSNBC on a Sunday night?

Nothing better to do, I guess. While he's the president of the whole United States of America. But he watched it and he wanted more credit for the First Step Act. So he was mad that we didn't, you know, kiss his ass more on that special. And so he like spoke up, called me boring and my wife filthy mouth or something like that and um you know it uh birthed a wonderful hashtag um president pussy ass bitch that came from my wife's um twitter account and um it's eventually got censored by Twitter and, and shortened to president PAB. And apparently based on congressional hearings, uh, a few years later, this really

irked, um, Donald Trump. And he like actively reached out to Twitter to try to censor this hashtag and, and was very upset about, uh, the, uh, blowback from him tweeting my wife and myself. And it was quite an episode in American history. It's been a pretty stupid eight years. It's in the congressional record now, though. Very exciting. So the other side of this is, do you think celebrities with platforms have an obligation to speak out about politics?

Because now you see a lot of people, and this happens, I think, on the left, where people want someone who's a celebrity to speak out on just about every issue. And then even if you do speak out on an issue, they want you to speak out more. And why are you not using your platform? And this especially happened around the war in Gaza.

Yeah, it's happening right now. Over the last year. Like, how do you feel about that? I think we should be careful about expecting celebrities to speak out about everything. Because honestly, a lot of us aren't informed about this issue or that issue. And these issues are very complicated.

They have lots of history. And particularly what's happening now in the Middle East, I think it requires a level of understanding that most celebrities just don't have. And I think truly, like, we all should be humble about what we know and what we don't know. And I think fans and audiences should be careful about wanting us to weigh in on everything. Because honestly, like, no. Well, and it's like the efficacy of you weigh yeah the efficacy one but also like the depth and the breadth of understanding necessary to contribute meaningfully to the conversation right is actually like just not there for most

artists and you can't really blame them this is not what they do every day you know like they're musicians they're actors they're uh in the public eye and you want them to use that platform for good but also you want them to do it with a sense of understanding and knowledge and wisdom and connection to activists and organizers and experts and everybody's just not able to do that and so I think we all as fans should be careful what we ask them to do because you might not get what you're wanting out of that conversation and engagement. That is true. You've endorsed Biden again. I think you said you'll be on the trail later this year. Sure.

Why do you think this race is so damn close right now? I think it's close because it's always close. And particularly in this era, the nation is pretty evenly divided. And every election has been close. Yeah. I can't remember an election in my lifetime that hasn't been. I mean, I guess before I was voting with Reagan, but since then, you know, they've all been close and the nation's pretty evenly divided. And then the Electoral College makes it so that it's even closer than, you know, the popular vote would even suggest because it's all hinging on, you know, four or five states usually. Do you think that voters have Trump amnesia? I do think they forget. And, you know, sometimes people, particularly when they think about

what's happening in Palestine and they're upset and they're frustrated with Biden and rightfully so, like we should be frustrated and we should be pushing President Biden and the administration to really be cognizant of U.S. leverage and power in the region and where our funds and our weapons go. All of that is really important. And I'm glad that progressives are

speaking out and holding President Biden's feet to the fire. But at the same time, this election is between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Like as much as we like enjoy the conversation around third parties and how exciting it feels to like have other choices. Uh, the bottom line is one of those two people is going to be president. And it's so abundantly clear to me that Joe Biden should be the president. When I decide between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. It's not even a conversation, not even close to me what the moral right thing to do for the country and for the world. It's reelect Joe Biden. It appears that from the polls, from focus groups, from just talking to people, you see it in some election results over the last several years as well, that Biden

is particularly struggling with some young voters, Black voters, Latino voters, particularly young Black males and young Latino males. So there's a gender discrepancy here. Why do you think that is? Well, I think Trump performs a form of masculinity that I think is attractive to some people. And to be clear, like black men, even an uptick for Trump is still a landslide for Biden. For sure. So black men are overwhelmingly more than any other race of men are supporting Joe Biden. Very true. But, you know, there is an uptick and that uptick may be enough

to win Wisconsin or it may be enough to win Michigan or wherever. And so, you know, it's an issue that the campaign is going to have to deal with. And so but I do think Trump performs a form of masculinity that is appealing to some men, black, white, Hispanic, you know, across the board. is appealing to some men, black, white, Hispanic, you know, across the board. And that may explain the uptick. And then, you know, I hear a lot of misinformation and disinformation about the economy under Trump and what's happened since. And to be clear, like the economy is doing quite well. We came back from a pandemic. The unemployment rate is extremely low. It's like crazily low. It's low among black people. It's low among Hispanics. It's low among the entire nation. And particularly because of some of the particular types of

economic bills that Joe Biden's passed, it's actually going to be quite helpful to men because of the manufacturing jobs that are coming back to the country, the construction infrastructure jobs that are coming back to the country. So if you are informed about that and you objectively are observing what's going on with the economy, you would say, actually, Biden is really great for the economy and he's great for men in the economy because he's bringing back the types of jobs that men often do. And so I think getting more education out there about what's going on with the economy and how helpful it's going to be that he passed the climate bill, which was called the IRA, but it was basically the most massive climate bill

in the history of the United States and the history of the world, probably. All these things are like amazing accomplishments that I don't feel like he's getting any credit for. And I don't think people understand what kind of impact is having and is going to have. I know growing up in Ohio, so many of the jobs that my parents and their generation worked and a lot of people might work in the future are manufacturing. My dad was an auto worker. And the fact that there is such a boon in electric vehicles and the batteries and all the things that go into making those and that a lot of those are being made in the United States now is going to

really help Ohio. It's going to help Georgia. It's going to help Tennessee. It's going to help a lot of these places. And so I think more people need to understand that that's what's happening and that Joe Biden and a democratic Senate and Congress pass these things to make our nation better and stronger. I do think there is a psychological effect of seeing higher prices due to inflation. Yeah. And inflation, which hit every country. Yeah. And I think people need to understand what happened with inflation too. After the pandemic, we had a supply issue. We had all these other issues that made inflation go up all over the world and it went down faster in America. We recovered from the pandemic better than any other developed country in the world. And it went down faster in America. We recovered from the pandemic better than any

other developed country in the world. We've done that. Biden's done that. The Democratic Senate and House, which was in charge for the first two years of his administration, did that by, and the Fed, of course. But all working together, our economy came back more quickly and better than any economy around the world. Yeah. I do wonder, like, do you talk to people who are wavering? And if you do talk to someone who's wavering, what would your message be about people who might be, maybe they're, and this is the, these are the voters that Biden's having problems with, people who voted for him in 2020 and are now thinking either maybe Trump, maybe stay home, maybe third party. Well, I think the economic issue is always important and it's hard to like convince someone that they don't want to

believe it. But the truth is the economic story for Biden is actually quite clear. Like the, the actions that the Biden administration took in the first two years really made our comeback stronger and better than any other comeback around the world. And so I feel like if that's the reason, if you think Trump is going to be better on the economy, no. Um, and then,

uh, Trump, when he comes back, he's made, made it clear a couple of things he wants to get done. Pass another tax cut for really rich people. And he's also on the economy, promised to roll back all the green economy things that Biden has done. He sat with billionaires and told them, I'm going to cut your taxes. And then he sat

with oil billionaires and told them that I'm going to roll back every climate legislation that Biden put in place. And if you care about either of those issues, like no way, do not vote for him. And then more of us are becoming aware of this Project 2025 issue. On every issue we care about, the Heritage Foundation, which is very conservative, and the MAGA Coalition have come together to say, here's how we want to completely remake the executive branch so that we put our people, people without expertise but who are politically loyal to us, in places all throughout the executive branch to make sure that we get our way on everything, whether it's reproductive rights, whether it's environmental regulations, whether it's immigration enforcement, and whether it's like just picking and choosing who they want to

prosecute in the Justice Department. They've decided we're going to take over all these levers of government, take out career government employees who have expertise in the subject matter and put in our political appointees. And we're going to implement this Project 2025. And it's going to be hell for anybody who doesn't agree with them. And man, like, I can't imagine thinking when the choices between Biden and Trump, which it is, that there's any equivocation. It's clear Biden needs to be reelected. I do think that celebrity endorsements, notable people being out there talking about why it's important not to elect Trump again, why Biden is the right choice. It's actually could be more effective this cycle than others just because the biggest challenge is attention right now. The way because of the media environment, the way that media is fractured,

the way that people have turned away from the news, turned away from politics over the last several years because they're just sick of it for good reason. And so if people are grumpy about stuff and they don't really know why and they're going to blame Biden, I think that creating a permission structure where it's okay to vote for Joe Biden, it's because right now it feels in the culture and for people who aren't paying attention to

politics, it feels uncool to vote for Joe Biden. It does feel uncool. And you know, they're both old, man. And it's hard for people and they're like, they both declined in their ability to like talk to the people and and just seem uh vigorous and energetic and it's hard for people to get excited about that yeah but like you have to vote for harm reduction too like clearly trump is extremely harmful to this nation to our democracy to women's rights to to civil rights, to immigrants' rights, like on so many issues, it's clear. And if you only vote because of the Supreme Court, like vote, because just think about the Supreme Court, what's going to happen? The oldest members right now are Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, the two most ridiculously fervent conservative,

like radically conservative people hanging insurrection flags in their front yard. Like, you know how radical you have to be to hang an insurrection flag in your front yard? So as soon as Trump gets elected, they have the permission to retire and he's going to replace them with a 39-year-old that has their same ideological bent, but is going to live for another 40 years and serve on the court. And we have to hope that Sonia Sotomayor hangs on for four years. Fuck no. Like, no way. Like, that is reason enough to be urgently for Joe Biden. Yeah.

No, I think that's well said. John Legend, thank you as always for coming on Pod Save America. Thank you. And excited that you're going to be out there helping get the message out.

Do what I can. Take care. you