Pod Save America - Is the Biden Dam Breaking?

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

The effort to remove President Biden from the ticket picks up momentum as more Democratic members of Congress speak out. Former Speaker Nancy Pelosi reveals more about her position—and says "time is running short" to make the right decision. MSNBC's Jen Psaki joins Lovett to break down the latest, and to talk about openly about what Biden needs to do to hang on. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. Joining us today... I said Jon Favreau? Yeah. Is this a bit? Is this a love it bit? That's crazy. I've been doing this for too long. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett. And I'm Jen Psaki. Jen, welcome back to the pod. Thank you. What a time to be alive. Thank you for inviting me on during this easy moment in Democratic politics.

Yeah, it's all straightforward from here. Yes, a lot to discuss. The effort to bounce Joe Biden from the ticket appears to either be stalling or picking up momentum, depending on who you ask and at what hour. Democratic senators are suggesting a reckoning may be at hand. Donald Trump goes after Kamala Harris and flirts with Marco Rubio at a rally in Florida and goes hard yet again on Biden's golf game. And despite all the chaos, Democrats are actually succeeding in breaking through with a message or a message is breaking through despite what Democrats are doing about Project 2025. I also want to note that in the shameless plugs department, MSNBC just announced that you, Jen, will be hosting a special in September in Brooklyn called MSNBC Live,

colon, Democracy 2024. Is that about whether we'll be one? Well, certainly that's part of the discussion. It has to be. But it's all, it's me, it's everybody's favorite host other than me. And we're all nerdy, just as you guys are. And we'll talk about where the state of our democracy is with lots of panels. It'll be fun. September feels like a lifetime away. It is kind of. And that's the beautiful thing about politics. All right. So the House and Senate have been

back in D.C. for a couple of days. As of this recording, roughly 10 House members have officially called for Biden to step aside, depending on whether or not you count Jerry Nadler, who went to the microphones to try to unslice the bagel. The latest defectors include Pat Ryan of New York, who's in a tough district, and Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey. And this morning, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who's been pretty oblique in her public statement so far, went on Morning Joe with this message. It's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. He's beloved. He is respected. And people want him to make that decision. Do you want him to run? I want him to do whatever he decides to do.

And that's that's the way it is. Whatever he decides, we go with. So no senators have said that Biden should go, but a lot of them are stopping just a few millimeters shy of that, including Patty Murray, the most senior Democrat, and Michael Bennett, who went on CNN last night to say Biden can't win and that he'll take the Senate and House down with him and that Biden doesn't have a plan to win in battleground states. Yet he didn't actually call on him to drop out. Richard Blumenthal said basically the same thing this morning when reporters chased him down. And then just before we recorded, Senator Tim Kaine, whose colleague Mark Warner has been out in front, went pretty Delphic with this. I have complete confidence that Joe Biden

will do the patriotic thing for the country. And he's going to make that decision. He's never disappointed me. He's always put patriotism and the country ahead of himself. And I'm going to respect the decision he makes. For his part, President Biden spent the day at the NATO summit in D.C. after making an opening speech last night that went pretty good. This morning, he reportedly met with union leaders, part of his strategy to rally his allies behind him.

One group of Biden supporters does appear to be defecting right now, and that's Hollywood types and late night hosts. Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert came back from break and both did pretty withering monologues. That was notable on Colbert's part because he hosted a huge fundraiser for Biden at Radio City this spring. And then this morning, George Clooney, leader of the Biden resistance at this point, co-hosted an L.A. fundraiser that John and Tommy and I went to publish an op ed in The Times calling for Biden to go. So there's a lot happening. Let's start with this. Just Jen, where are you emotionally right now on the question that is preventing us from focusing on the even bigger question of how to defeat Donald Trump? What do you think President Biden should do? Well, the weird way my low grade or high grade anxiety manifested itself last night was that

I cleaned out my refrigerator, which is a very weird suburban thing to do, but very satisfying. So I did my closet. Jen, I did my closet. This is like we're telling everyone you don't know what to do. Buy your book, clean out your fridge, closet, you'll feel like you're sure something. You know, I think what I am most closely watching right now are the vulnerable members. There's a lot of noise here happening in Washington publicly, some of it, there's a lot of word garbling and carefully worded statements. You read a number of them, carefully worded statements. You read a number of them, but it's less, we care about everyone's voices, but less the members that have no shot of losing their reelection and more the ones who do, because those are the ones who are looking at the most up-to-date polling and who the most rides on,

right? I mean, if Democrats lose the House and the Senate or the House and the Senate and Trump is elected, that is a whole scary ballgame there. I don't even know what analogy I can think of a super scary one. So it became a ballgame. But and so that's what I'm most watching. And you didn't mention that. And they didn't go as far as some of the people you said. But it was interesting to me on Monday, Senator Tester and Senator Brown also came out and basically expressed concerns from what they're hearing from their constituents. Right. So that is another way of saying, I don't know if I can win. Right. And, you know, a lot of people have there are there's a lot of ways to look at this because it is a question of like, who is it? Who who impacts you at the top of the ticket, right? That's a question here.

And a lot of them are running ahead of Biden anyway. So some will tell you, and some pollsters have said it's baked in, right? That's an argument. And it may be in a number of these races, but it's not in every race. We've seen that in places like Wisconsin. And also this race, and you guys have talked about this, and I totally agree. It's going to be one on the margins, right? So it's not really about looking for where there is a 10 point drop. I hope there's not that.

It is who is going to help propel or at least not drag down. Yeah, I think it was, I think Sherrod Brown, just before we recorded was speaking to reporters and basically saying, maybe you could take this as reassuring or not, but some version of, hey, this separation between where Biden's at and where these Senate Democrats in important states are at, that divide isn't going anywhere. We can still win these Senate races, which I think manages to both be incredibly disconcerting and also somehow reassuring at the same time. It's maybe both. Yeah.

One more interesting thing. You know, John, there's a member of Congress from Washington state, Marie Glyzenkamp Perez, who is such an interesting candidate. She's a freshman. And she's basically been saying Trump is going to win and that the House needs to be a check. So that's also concerning messaging. I'm not and I'm not that's not even I'm not being critical of her. Like she's saying, let to be a check. So that's also concerning messaging. I'm not, and I'm not, that's not even, I'm not being critical of her. Like she's saying, let me be a check.

The presidency is lost. It doesn't mean she's right. It just means there's all sorts of, in these vulnerable races, in these districts, I think is where the most telling information is being gathered from. And I actually think that is what Speaker Pelosi, and I'm sure we'll talk about her because she was the big person today, and Schumer and others are listening to because they want to keep the Senate, they want to win the House. And that's when things start to get trickier in their loyalty. Yes. So let's talk about what Pelosi said, because I do think that

so there I am sure there are members that are genuinely expressing their belief that Joe Biden is the person that we should stick with. And I respect people who have that view that they're earnestly expressing. I think it's harder and harder to justify, but there are people that have that view. I actually, I actually think there are probably a number who are because they're worried about the alternative. And I'm not validating that, but that is a real discussion happening right now on campaigns. Yes. And so I know. And I think that's true. And I don't want to I don't want to pretend that that's not real, because I think people when they when they're mad or upset or their stakes are high, they go right to saying,

oh, you're not really being honest. Let's let's trust that that that a big that a chunk of those people are being sincere. Then there are other people that are being very careful publicly while expressing a lot of concerns in private. Now, some of those people I think are just being timid and seeing where, seeing where the people are going so that they may lead them. But I actually don't think that's the case with someone like Nancy Pelosi. And so it does seem like there's that, that what Nancy Pelosi is doing in some level is saying, So it does seem like there's that that what Nancy Pelosi is doing in some level is saying, I'm not calling for you to drop out while these foreign leaders are in Washington. And when I don't believe public pressure is the most helpful way in which I can reach Joe Biden. What is your take on what Nancy Pelosi is trying to do here? Well, one, I think she rarely says anything publicly that isn't purposeful.

anything publicly that isn't purposeful. So it doesn't mean everything she says is, is is like talking pointy and, and perfectly exact in that way. That's why she's such an interesting one of the reasons why she's such an interesting person to watch and see what they're saying. We had her on our show a week and a half ago. And she basically said a version of I'm with Joe Biden for now, like there was there was an added words that was kind of an interesting tell. I will say just from seeing them interact and talk on the phone, she loves him personally. I mean, they're almost flirty when they talk to each other. Right. They just they've known each other for decades.

There's respect on their political strengths. She loves him. She also is a political animal machine who wants to win the house. And so I think I heard all of the things you said. I also think that a calculation for her and others like her is we don't know how this will end and they don't, nor do I. I don't think we know how this will end regardless of people's views on it. And we don't want to weaken him publicly. And so if it is him, we're going to be with him a thousand percent. And you can't have the former speaker of the House out there calling for him to step down publicly. Right. I think that's part of her calculation, I would suspect. Right. But at the same time, if Nancy Pelosi wanted to express

unequivocal confidence in Joe Biden, she'd be doing that. Right. Like if if Nancy Pelosi wanted to express unequivocal confidence in Joe Biden, she'd be doing that, right? Like, if Nancy Pelosi wanted Joe Biden to remain in the race, she would not be speaking the way she is speaking. I think that's 100% true. That's what I mean by she doesn't say anything without purpose and without thinking strategically about it. But I also think she's walking a careful line here, as many of them are, that I understand strategically. I don't think this can be the tightrope people walk for that much longer, but I understand a little bit of their calculation. Yeah, I think I do too, although I respect it as long as it is part of an effort to get to a better outcome as opposed to simply

trying to get through a specific news cycle. And speaking of that, you know, Joe Biden, you know, after the debate, I think there were a lot of calls that said something like, if Joe Biden's going to remain in this race, then what he has to do is an energetic and aggressive campaign of town halls, interviews, press conferences, a rigorous schedule. I do not think that anyone could fairly say that that is what we have seen. We've seen a George Stephanopoulos interview, some conversations with radio hosts. There does seem to be a kind of an effort to kind of slow this down to kind of buy time. Biden met with union leaders earlier today, and he said this. You know, we have two strong, strong organizations in America

that I look to for our security. One, literally, and I mean this sincerely, is NATO. NATO, a joint assembly of democracies that made sure we're keeping the peace and no one's going to screw around with us as strong as it's ever been. And I think of you as my domestic NATO. Can I just say as a sidebar, I never want to hear NATO out of the mouth of another presidential candidate again. Sorry, Tommy. I understand he's talking about it. It's happening right now. But it has been a very present repeat talking point. And I

don't understand. He has a very good public argument to make. So yes, it is. No, no, no. That is part of this, which is, you know, look, it is, I think, a true piece of conventional wisdom that foreign policy like NATO is not going to be the place where a Democrat wins the presidency. So it is quite a twist to then use NATO to frame domestic policy as well. But I love NATO. I'm like almost Tommy level nerd on this stuff. But still, a lot in this episode is going to be about the difference between what we say publicly and what we say privately. And I feel duty bound to say that before we recorded, because Jen was stuck in traffic, she did say, and I quote, fuck NATO. And I'm sorry to out you for saying that, but I'm not going to sit here and be a hypocrite.

John, because context is everything. It is bumper to bumper traffic and you can't go anywhere downtown. So I felt bad making you wait to record. So that's no. And I know. And therefore, oh, well, whatever happens to the Baltics happens to the Baltics. But anyway, we love the Baltics. But no, but but he refers to the unions as my NATO.

And I do think it speaks to this balance. Joe Biden is striking between efforts to actually assuage concerns about the way in which age is a liability among voters and his efforts to try to stop this debate because he believes that what we must do is move on to the conversation about Trump, which I don't think is wrong. But what do you think right now between the balance of his efforts to actually address these concerns versus trying to kind of circle the wagons to prevent these concerns from from forcing him to step down? Well, first, I will say, regardless of the outcome, I mean, his campaign team, who I feel the most for right now, because I think this is really,

really hard. Yeah, they have done a very effective job of circling the wagons. I mean, you can disagree with it. You can think he shouldn't be the nominee moving forward, but they have been very effective. The CBC being out for him, union workers and others. Where there is a place where there's a missed moment for him, I mean, there's many, but in this moment, is messaging about Trump and why he's a better choice than Trump. He doesn't need to be the deliverer. I understand the George Stephanopoulos interview and he's doing Lester Holt on Monday. I'm sure a lot of it will be right. Like, are you up to the task? Have you seen a doctor? All these things. You can't control those questions. But when he speaks at public events, he could be giving a breakdown of how horrible Project 2025 is. He could be doing his Scranton Joe, which, by the way, is his sweet spot. And

he's very good at of like, I'm going to fight for you. I have been for 50 years. And that other guy only cares about himself so he can get himself out of jail. It's a little bit that you have different roles, as you well know, on campaigns. And I think the campaign staff are doing a great job of circling the wagons. Right. He doesn't need to be the public circler of the wagons. And I but, you know, I think he's got to show strength to which he's done. It's just there's there's the other part he seems feels missing. Yeah. Well, this is, I think, where it all starts to feel a little bit disingenuous, which is, I think, one thing, even senators that are leaning pretty hard against Joe Biden then say, if Joe Biden wants to have my support, you know, in the convention and he's not going to step aside, then he needs to be a more aggressive and energetic candidate. He has to be out there more. And now there are some, you know, maybe he can, maybe he can't, but right now he's not. And I wonder what you worked for him. Why do you think,

other than the explanation that doing more events would not be helpful to his cause, what would be the argument for why he has not been out there more in the two weeks since the debate? I wish I had an answer to that. And I did work for him. And as I've said, I love Joe Biden. He is a great human being. He's been a phenomenal president. He has completely kind of survived through odds against him a thousand times over and done more than anyone thought he could. The thing that I haven't seen him in more than two years since I left. Right. And so the thing that I can't figure out is when I was working from I'd never met anyone who loved spending time with members of Congress more, which is not something our former boss, President Barack Obama, would have said. Right. And most people say, to be clear. And Joe Biden,

we used to bring members of Congress on trips with him and elected officials. He just liked to spend the entire time talking to people. He's an extrovert. He loves being around people. I don't think like press conferences are his superpower. I'm not sure whose superpower that is. Like it's not, and I don't even know if long form many, many, many interviews they do some, but like not. But being out there in public and with people and engaging with people is his superpower. And what I don't understand is why they haven't done more of that. He also is a person who picked up the phone. I mean, most elected officials need a briefing memo to call a member of Congress. Like, what are you calling them? What are you asking them for?

He would just pick up the phone and call Democrats, Republicans. I'm sure it drove the legislative affairs team insane because it was like, you know, but that's what he would do. So we don't entirely know all the things going on and who he's talking to and who he's not talking to in terms of advisors or also members. But it doesn't seem it's not it's not similar. It's not like when I was there in terms of what he would be inclined to do publicly. So in lieu of those kinds of events and those kinds of conversations, what we do have is he's apparently going to talk to Lester Holt on Monday. That will be two and a half weeks since the debate. And then tomorrow, after the NATO conference concludes, he's going to do a big press conference in which, once again, all eyes will be on Joe Biden and his performance. which once again, all eyes will be on Joe Biden and his performance.

What does success look like for you in that press conference? What does muddling through look like? And what does failure look like? I mean, first of all, the challenge of this press conference is that because they haven't done a lot, there are so much focus and emphasis and expectation about it, right? I mean, he's done a bunch of other interviews and done like four events a day. I mean, he did have a very busy Dan Sunday, but he could have had many other days like that.

And then it's like, well, he answered that question. Weird. He talked about August, but like he's done 17 events. Right. I mean,

right. You know, I think success is honestly performative. It is not having a moment where he freezes. He may lose his train of thought, but I think if people look at, he's done that more lately, but I think if people look back at him talking 10 years ago, there's, there's a, he's a storyteller and he interjects stories all the time and it makes it a little confusing. So he may do that. But I think it's really performative. And does he come with energy? Does he drive the message home? Does he talk about Trump in an

effective way? Does he not start a non sequitur of a different topic? You know, there are a couple of things that happened during the debate. I mean, you know, obviously people talked a lot about how he looked, right. And that is, I think, watching what was the most jarring, right. And maybe it was a terrible night and that's it. But there were also moments where he answered questions that were hard to understand as well. And I'm not saying that's an age thing. It may be, but I also think that it leaves people at home wondering, like, well, what are you going to do and how are you different from Trump? And, you know, that's kind of been a little bit lost from the coverage because there were so many other things. But I think it's having like a clear, concise contrast message with Trump being confident

but not condescending, you know, in how he talks during the press conference. So it's tone and it's performance, I think, largely. But, you know, and as you know, there's only I don't know the conversations that are happening internally. None of us do. So it may be that he didn't want to do other interviews and that many advisers advised him to. I'm not sure. Right. Or other campaign events. That is also possible. You know, presidents are they do. They are the ultimate deciders, which I think is important for people to know and understand about this moment. Yeah, it's I don't know how you we talked about managing the anxiety around this, but it is strange even talking like this. You know, we're both people

that worked for administrations that want to advocate for the Democratic candidate, want to advocate for a Democratic president. And also, like, I don't know how you feel, but like, I feel a little guilty as we have these conversations, not in particular because of criticizing Joe Biden. I don't think we owe Joe Biden anything. But because I feel for the people that are working in those jobs, trying to do their best under these circumstances, who themselves don't know what the right thing to do is. How do I think about that all the time. And look, I don't I owe Joe Biden the chance of being the White House press secretary. And I'm very aware of that. Right. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean I owe not discussing what we're all seeing with our own eyes. And I think part of the challenge right now is that this is a healthy discussion that happens in a democracy about the path forward. It's never happened before in this way, but it has sort of exposed, you know, kind of some real resistance to having a conversation when a conversation needs to be had. I mean, you know, when you come on and you guys do your podcast or when I do my show, it's not like we're just solo reporting on what

we think. We're talking about what people, as in members of Congress, the American public, people who are running advocacy campaigns, are saying and thinking, right? And that's important for people to understand and digest. So I'm very sympathetic to a lot of things right now. One, people being pissed out there, whether they're pissed at me or you or other people, that's fine. Be pissed. It's okay. Frustrated. I get that. This is frustrating. I mean, Donald Trump is like a convicted felon who is also like a sexual assaulter. Like, how is this even happening? Right.

And I also think a lot about the campaign staff, because when you're on a campaign, as you and I both know, we've I've been on we've we've both been on winning and losing campaigns. Right. And when you're on a losing campaign and we don't know that this is one. So I'm not saying that. Don't come at me. I'm just saying when your campaign is having a down moment, and even for Barack Obama,

we had down moments, right? Probably caused by you. Yeah, those are our up moments. I had up moments when you had down moments, yeah. You are dug in with the people you're working for. You believe in the person you're working for. You believe in your colleagues. You're lifting them up. The vast majority of people on this campaign are doing this to save democracy. All of them are. And they don't know what Joe Biden is going to decide. They're not talking to him on a daily basis. Most of them are not. And I think that's also important for people to understand. They're just trying to charge forward with the campaign. And they're sort of stuck in a version of purgatory as well. So I think it's very difficult. And I think from the people I've talked to, it's a range of emotions.

You know, I think it's a range of emotions, which is understandable. Yes. And it does, I think, in moments like this, especially when it's sort of, you know, an intra family dispute, emotions can run high and it leads to both kind of both sides accusing the other of being out of touch, not having their finger on the polls. So I do want to put some data to this because the polling is painting a pretty damning story. Yesterday, the Cook Political Report shifted projections for six states towards Trump, moving Arizona, Nevada, Georgia from toss up to lean Republican, very concerning moving New Hampshire, Minnesota, and Nebraska too from likely Democratic to lean Democratic. And new individual swing state polls,

including those from Emerson, all show the battlegrounds slipping away. There were some polls that I saw just before we started recording of some swing districts in New York where we were deep, deep, deep underwater, really troubling signs. There was a sense out there post-debate that what would really change the public statements of Democrats would be polling. Has the polling reached that point or are people overreacting to the dip post-debate? What do you think? Well, I think that in the days post-debate, the argument was from the Biden team was there hasn't been, we don't know what the public thinks, right? And that was accurate at the time, right? And still it's like, it's a little bit murky out there entirely what, you know, based on polling. down to these are the states that need to be won in order to win the presidency. And a number of these states are also the states that need to be won in order to hold on to the Senate. And a number of these districts are districts that need to be won in order to win the House. Now, there is a

question out there that, again, I think campaigns are talking about, about the alternative. And the alternative is very clearly, in my view, there's a lot of really amazing Democrats on the bench. But because of the timeline and everything, I think it is clearly Kamala Harris, right? So I don't know why there hasn't been kind of an overwhelming Kamala Harris would be a great president, and she would be a fierce, amazing campaigner, right? But that's not typically the message. I'm not, that is just, I'm observing what people are saying, right?

It's typically, don't take it away from Kamala Harris if it's open. That would be unfair. Now that's valid too. But also I think there is not a clear 100% comfort level with the alternative either, or that is my sense. I don't know why. But that is also what I'm feeling right now from talking to people and reading a lot. No, I do think that is part of it. I think it's a few things. I think one of it, right,

is that if justifying sticking with Joe Biden, given the polls and the debate performance is difficult, I think actually coming to believe in a caricature of Kamala Harris is sort of a useful psychological defense. I think that that's absolutely part of it. I also do think something happened. First of all, the vice presidency is a goofy job. It's a goofy job. Selina Meyer, we're looking at you. Like, it's weird. And, you know, you're in a very weird, you have a great house.

But other than that, it is a very awkward, challenging job. Kamala Harris, the vice president, I'm going to call her vice president now because I keep calling her. She is like, in my view, an undervalued talent. She's a very fierce communicator. She's very strong, especially on one of the core issues that made the election maybe won or lost on, which is abortion rights. You know, and this is why I think what she did. I did a couple of interviews after the debate.

People were I was sitting on the set with a bunch of other MSNBC anchors. And we were like, everyone's like, that was great. It's like, yeah, she was. Yeah, that's what she's doing out in the country. And nobody is really tracking it. It's just that's who she is. But there is a character out there. There is.

It's almost like public opinion hasn't caught up with what she is doing out there. And also, we live in a country that is sexist and racist. So, like, there is that. Not everybody at all, but there is a level of it that does impact elections. Of course, I also do think like a liability with Vice President Harris that has nothing to do with her is that she would bear some of the costs of incumbency. And you're starting to see that in the polls. But there are two other parts of it. So the vice presidency being fundamentally goofy, combined with occasional moments where she's a little goofy, not in any kind of disastrous way, but like they're just goofy

clips of Vice President Harris. You can see them as endearing. You can see them however you want. But I do think that that has sort of led to an over-torqued opinion about her political skills. I think the other piece of it, too too is, you know, she was a district attorney and a prosecutor. And then she runs for president in a Democratic primary at a time in which there was a great deal of focus and antipathy in a segment of the base around prosecutors and police. And I think it's made, I think that that plus the lack of a clear lane for her in the primary led to some confusion on who she is or where she stands, which wouldn't be a problem if she became the Democratic nominee because she could talk about her record. I think it would be reflective

of the ways in which she's evolved on criminal justice and the way she talks about it now. I don't think that that primary was purposeless. I think there was incredibly important value to the discussion we had around it. But nonetheless, I do think that carried a bit of a legacy. But I think all of it, to your point, led to a kind of, yes, she's undervalued as a political asset. And look, can somebody send this to the K-Hive. I just would like the K-Hive to see a clip of me praising Vice President Kamala Harris, because I think they never think I do it. Can you can we just send this to the K-Hive? I don't know how you reach them. Some sort of a signal. So so a lot of Democrats right now feel angry with Biden. I'm among them. A lot of

Democrats feel angry at Democrats like those of us that have felt like he should step aside. It is a divisive moment. Whether it's Biden or not, what does stitching this coalition back together look like? Well, a decision, because people have a range of views out there. And that's clear. Right. And, you know, just as you've said a number of of times and I totally agree, it's like the notion that this isn't a real discussion or people aren't worried is just not being honest. Right. And, you know, but the notion that it is so clear to everybody what the right path is, is also not true. Right. I mean, it's not true. I think the challenge right now is that it's this sort of purgatory, right? Where the focus and the coverage and the attention on, and I'm not, I think I've been, this is an important thing for people to talk about and cover. So that is not a critique. Like it just, it is happening. We have to talk about it is overshadowing the fact that like Trump may pick between J.D. Vance and Doug Burgum and maybe Marco Rubio. And also his the Republican platform is now 18 pages and it has things like on Russia,

Ukraine, it's like peaceful Europe. That's like their whole thing. Right. I mean, there's so many things that are there just isn't space for right now. And I think a unifying thing would be a decision because people will come around to what the unifying thing is. I think for the most part, it's just what is it? Well, yeah, I think it's I think it's more than yes, I think that's right. But I think it's a decision that is justified by events and facts. And so that to me means either Joe Biden decides to stick it out and proves that he's up to it or he steps aside.

But right now we're getting neither. But how do you define that? And who defines that? This is the challenge, right? Yes, I know. I know. This is the challenge, right? Yes, I know. I know. There's no, this is what I'm struck so much by, by a lot of these statements of a range of elected officials, right? I mean, I'm not sure it's, I don't know that anyone's deeming Senator Mark Warner, bless his heart, to lead this process.

But like, I'm not sure who is leading this process. Like who concludes it? How does this conclude? Because if it's the president, he said he's going to run and he said he's not stepping back. That that's that's where his decision is. So if there is a movement for that not to be the decision, I'm not sure who's running that process or how it concludes. Because I think that it could be Joe. It really could be Joe Biden saying this conversation is over and here's how I'm ending it. But that can't come with a press conference two weeks later, a Lester Holt on a Monday, you know, a call to Joe and Mika, which was, I think, pretty friendly towards President Biden. Like that's not it's that's not answering the concerns. That's ignoring the concerns. That's ignoring the

concerns. And so I do think that if Joe Biden says I'm not going anywhere, but doesn't make any of these changes in the poll numbers continue to slip, I think then you would start to see a Chuck Schumer, a Nancy Pelosi, others starting to become more forthright. That's why I think because I think it's very hard to define what, and just to like play, I've been very candid about what I'm hearing from hearing from people and I will continue to be in what I think,

but like to pay devil's advocate on the Biden team, like what is enough, right? What is enough to satisfy that? And so to me, I'm not, I think it's more about vulnerable members running and where they stand and how this could impact them in the House and Senate. Look, I do think in terms of Joe Biden himself, I worked for President Obama. You work closely with Joe Biden. There are these two sides to Joe Biden, and one of them is this magnanimous and generous, kind and decent person. And the other is somebody, I think, who does want to prove himself. He wants to be the one to do it. You know, even in that interview with Mika and Joe, he said, who the hell else could hold NATO together? And I'm just wondering, as somebody

that's worked closely with him, what would be the kind of conversation that would open the possibility of Joe Biden realizing he ought to step aside and pass the torch? I mean, I'll also say in February, he said 50 Democrats could beat Trump, right? So we're in the moment we are in. You know, I do think that he is somebody who, he is, I know he doesn't seem this way publicly, especially during the George Stephanopoulos interview, which my gut is there was the strategy to be overly confident and it came across as disconnected but um i'm not saying that was the right strategy i just think there may have been a strategy but this conversation is probably going to be from people who tell him if the path is that he's not

going to be the nominee that he will take the House and Senate down, right? That he doesn't have a path to victory, if that's what people believe, and he will take the House and Senate down. Now, there are people he very much trusts and he's close to in his life who have, in my presence, given him hard, you know, have conveyed hard truths. Mike Donilon is certainly one of them. You know, Ron Klain is one of them. There are people in his life. I don't know that that's how they feel, right? And so that ultimately, but all of them are, Ted Kaufman, are incredibly smart, politically astute people, right?

Who love Joe Biden, love his family, are proud of everything he's done. As by the way, 99.9% of Democrats are as well. But I don't know what tips that for those people who are close to him in his life and his family to say, it can't be you. And part of it, I think, is confidence in the alternative, which again, I'm not validating. But I do think that is part of the thinking and the conversation. So I do think we'd be obviously the reason I think this conversation is so tense is because of the stakes. Donald Trump held a rally last night. It's his first big campaign event since the day after the debate.

He has been basically golfing while his poll numbers rise, which is obviously dispiriting. He's been out of public eye for 12 days, which has also been happening during all of this. Yes. And by the way, again, it points to the, they're doing a better job this time than they are last time because when your opponent is digging a hole, you let them. So let's just share just some of the nonsense

that we've heard from Trump at this event. So tonight I'm officially offering Joe the chance to redeem himself in front of the entire world. Let's do another debate this week so that sleepy Joe Biden can prove to everyone all over the world that he has what it takes to be president. I'm also officially challenging Crooked Joe to an 18-hole golf match right here. I will give him 10 strokes a side, and if he wins, I will give the charity of his choice,

any charity that he wants, one million dollars. I think they probably think I'm going to be announcing that Marco is going to be vice president. I don't know. Because that's a lot of press. That's a lot of press. Marco, you're going to vote for it, I hope. Well, you may or may not be there to vote for it, but you'll be involved.

You know, it's the first time I'd ever done this. I went, I didn't even know what the hell NATO was too much before, but it didn't take me long to figure it out, like about two minutes. So he does. Yeah. Pack there, as we like to say. And that wasn't even the scariest stuff he said in the last few weeks. So, you know, it is not wrong that this conversation about Joe Biden is preventing us from focusing on the threat Donald Trump poses. One thing that has happened over the last week is that Donald Trump, I think being too cute by a half, decided to say, I don't know what Project 2025 is. And by the way, whatever it is, I hate it.

Except the parts you like. Except I wish them well. I wish. And I wish them well. I wish them well. First of all, why do you think Trump decided to back away from 2025? And do you think the do you think his his drawing attention to it has led to this surge in interest in what it might be? in part because effectively a lot of outside groups and democratic organizations were really pushing and spending money on it for people to kind of be aware of the dangers of it. Also, the president of the Heritage Foundation, after the immunity decision by the Supreme Court,

came out and said something completely insane about like a revolution. I don't remember the exact quote. He said, it'll be bloodless as long as the left lets it be bloodless. Yes. So quite threatening. Correct. So that's crazy. Think aggressive MAGA think tank in action there. I think he's a brand guy, right?

I mean, I think he's like, eh, this name doesn't seem popular. People don't seem to like it, right? But the truth is, and I know you guys have talked about this, but like people who worked for him and would work for him again are running it. Russ Vogt, who's on the short list of potential chiefs of staff, is literally writing major chapters about executive authority. Right.

I mean, the plan is his plan for the most part. So I think he probably thought, eh, this branding's not good. I don't want people to know more about my plans. I mean, that's what I think the Republican Platform Committee thing is all about. I mean, the 16-page Republican Platform Committee plan basically reads like a series of tweets, right? It's not a plan. It's not a policy proposal because they don't want people to have more details.

And that's kind of the strategy, I think. Yeah, it is. This is like, this is their second term plan. This is their off the shelf plan. That's why it exists. That's why it is named

what it is named. It is made by people who were in the administration right before he went to jail. Everyone writing it will be inside of the administration. And by the way, Donald Trump continues

to be an undisciplined oaf who knows nothing about the government, who will cede control of the administration to these functionaries. These are the bureaucrats that will be making the decisions. That is the plan.

He doesn't get to distance himself from it. Jen, what are we going to do? I was hoping you were going to have an answer to that question. I just, I'm glad we talked. I do think like the concern that this endless debate about Joe Biden and his fitness is preventing us from prosecuting the case against Donald Trump, I think is actually quite true. I just think they're laying the blame in the wrong place. Like if you if we want to get back to a conversation about Donald Trump, it will it is incumbent upon Joe Biden to get this conversation to end either by proving it should be over or by stepping aside so that it is over. I don't I don't see another way to it.

Yes, I think the proving it is over, though, is tricky. And I don't know how that is defined. And there are a couple of paths here. One is the clock just keeps ticking. And the Republican Convention is next week. And Donald Trump has a rally on Saturday and maybe he'll pick his running mate and Biden has a Lester Holt interview on Monday and maybe he'll be really effective in punching back at Trump, which he has been in the past. Maybe he will be. And then all of a sudden we're 10 days from now and the convention is five weeks away instead of seven weeks away. And the clock could tick through because he has had a broad base of support, or at least a group of support from members of Congress, including the

CBC and others who have stood by him. The other path is that vulnerable House and Senate members are so concerned that it drives people like Pelosi and close advisors of the presidents who read polls to say, you have been a tremendous president. You have kind of exceeded any expectation in the best possible way and defied so many odds. And if you continue running, it could hurt our prospects of the House and Senate and you don't have a path to victory. I don't know. The polling that I have seen does not say that, but there is that is another path. And I don't think we know in this moment where it's going to go.

But time, you know, I think part of what's happening right now is things are being scheduled to to gain them more time. And if you're them, that's a smart strategy, right? Yeah, because you are, he's going to have an interview with Lester Holt. Let's see the interview with Lester Holt.

Then it's the Republican convention. Oh, this guy's so crazy and there's only one person who's beaten him. They have done, on a staff level, a very effective job of like circling

the political wagons. So it is possible that a couple weeks pass and then it is too late to make a change if it changes the right path forward. on that note jen sake thank you so much for being here what a time what should we organize next should we coordinate on it but yeah yeah no i think that's great yeah

we should be planning that that's that's a great idea uh jen thank you so much i don't know maybe i'll do yeah i guess I'll do. Yeah, I guess I'll do my fridge. You do your closet. I think that's what's next. I think that's right. I'm in. Send pictures for evidence. Democracy Live 2024. It's an event where Jen will see if democracy is in fact live in Brooklyn. People can buy tickets. It's not just me. Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, all the people will be there. They got Maddow. They Maddow, Chris Hayes, Troy Reid. All the people will be there. They got Maddow.

They got Reid. They got Hayes. They got Saki. Alex Wagner, who we love. They got Wagner. All right. Lawrence O'Donnell. O'Donnell.

They got O'Donnell. The list is unending. It's Coachella for whatever the fuck we do here. We're political nerds. Come on down. Yeah, that's right. We love it. Great talking to you down. Yeah, that's right. I love it. Great talking to you. Two quick things before we go.

Look, as we try mightily to defeat the conservatives here at home, in the UK, they've managed to eject the conservatives after 14 years of misrule. And you can hear more about it in the latest episode of Pod Save the UK. On Friday, they released a special

with everything you need to know about the snap election and what a new government and a new prime minister means for the UK and beyond. Imagine that a country having an election in a matter of four months. It is possible. Last week, they also officially launched their YouTube. So you can follow them along by searching for Pod Save the UK on YouTube and make sure you follow. Former White House Social Secretary Disha Dyer recently joined Hysteria's Alyssa Mastromonaco for a great discussion about imposter syndrome, public service and the simpler times when Donald Trump was just an annoying reality TV show host. Head on over to Hysteria to listen and make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

That is our show for today. Thanks so much to Jen for joining us. Dan and John are back with a new show on Friday morning. And, you know, see out there in the in the in the Biden wars, I guess. If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our friends of the pod subscription community at crooked dot com slash friends. And if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.

Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farah Safari. Reid Cherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Tolles, Kiril Pellaviv, and Molly Lobel. Why are two old, unpopular men the only candidates for the world's most demanding job? The answer lies in the peculiar politics of the generation born in the era of the bomb. It's a generation that has enjoyed extraordinary wealth and progress, yet their last act in politics sees the two main parties accusing each other of wrecking American democracy.

As the boomers near the end of their political journey, John Priddo tries to make sense of their inheritance and their legacy. Search Boom from The Economist wherever you listen to your podcasts and unlock all episodes by subscribing to Economist Podcast Plus.