Pod Save America - Joe vs. The Unknown

Episode Date: June 29, 2024

Democrats begin to grapple with two huge questions: is it possible to replace Biden at the top of the ticket—and is it wise? Mehdi Hasan joins Jon, Lovett, Tommy, and Dan, live in Boston, to debate the options. Plus, Gov. Maura Healey joins the show to give her own debate reaction and talk about rising to the challenge on immigration and abortion. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

🎵 What's up, Austin? Good to be home. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Mehdi Hassan, and I'm kind of the odd one out. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitorett I'm Tommy Visor

I'm Dan Pfeiffer And thank you all for being here at tonight's opening act for Love It or Leave It We have a great show for you tonight Your governor, Maura Healy, is here And our guest host this evening Your governor, Maura Healy, is here. And our guest host this evening, the legendary host, commentator, debater, founder of the new media outlet, Zateo, Mehdi Hassan.

Mehdi, welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much, Buster. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. Let's get right into it and start by talking about what's on everyone's mind right now. How about them Celtics?

That's it. That's what we're going to talk about. No, we have to talk about the debate. On Thursday night, Joe Biden debated a deranged criminal bent on destroying democracy. And according to every single post-debate poll and all of our eyes, the deranged criminal won by a large margin. More than 50 million Americans watched the train wreck, which is about 30% fewer viewers than the first debate in 2020, but still quite a big audience. Yeah, you can cheer for that. That's great. Too soon to know how this will affect the race,

though the early polls have not been great. But the Biden campaign is charging ahead and pointing to the president's livelier performance in North Carolina today. Let's listen. Now, folks, I don't know what you did last night, but I spent 90 minutes on the stage debating the guy who has the morals of an alley cat. Close to this. I know I'm not a young man.

State the obvious. I don't walk as easy as I used obvious. I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to. But I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth. I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. When you get knocked down, you get back up. So, uh... A lot of Chubba Wumba fans here tonight. I love that.

Donald Trump had a bit of a different take at his rally in Virginia. Let's listen. The question every voter should be asking themselves today is not whether Joe Biden can survive a 90-minute debate performance, but whether America can survive four more years of crooked Joe Biden in the White House.

Yeah, you can boo that. All right, Mehdi. Well, so a lot of our listeners, they've already heard our takes on the debate. So I'm going to start with you. I want you to know I don't enjoy doing this, but yesterday before the debate, you tweeted. I think Republicans will regret setting the bar so low for Biden

and helping spread the distorted image of him as a guy who is totally out of it, suffering from dementia, no grip on reality, no ability to speak. Any updates there? John, it's even worse because there was an extra line at the end of the tweet that said, it's a very low bar for him to clear. The update is that the bar was not cleared. It was not cleared. The update was that I am someone, the reason I wrote that tweet, John, is because for several months, actually for several years, when I was at MSNBC for three years, I did a lot of monologues, a lot of segments saying

the age thing, it's not as big as people say, yes, he's old, but that can't be the defining issue when you're up against a deranged, narcissistic fascist who tried to steal democracy and i said for a few weeks since i left msmbc same position in the last few months we had all these distorted videos from fox the tiktok nonsense it's like come on this is bullshit and then last night happened yeah and i can't say that anymore yeah and from like 901 i couldn't say that anymore i don't know what i was watching because as i say i wrote the tweet i thought this should be straightforward i don't know what i was watching that the kind of the inability to finish whispered sentences the deer in the headlights the inability to actually the bit

my biggest complaint about last night was separate to age or abilities i want a presidential candidate who is going to batter donald trump because donald trump is for the battering and and he didn't do well like like donald trump turned in a terrible yes by any he turned in the second worst debate performance we have seen in 2024. RFA erasure. Joe Biden lost a debate to a guy last night who, when he was asked about climate change, said, we had H2O. That is what he said.

I took that note. I had notes on the debate. And so I would once in a while type out something that Donald Trump said. And then every time Joe Biden would speak, I would just type, Jesus Christ. He said we had H2O, and Joe Biden, of course, passed the biggest climate investment in American history,

and yet Donald Trump said we had H2O, not in a whisper and with a great confidence. Yeah. And therefore he wins the debate. And I'm not okay with that, but you have to live in the world as it is, not as the world as we want it to be. And that's why the debate. And I'm not okay with that, but you have to live in the world as it is, not as the world was we want it to be. And that's why I think it is a real problem for the Democrats now to have Joe Biden over the next few months. I have not

said that until now. I'm not somebody who's going to get rid of him, get rid of him. But after last night, I have to be honest and say, I don't know how we continue like this. Yeah. Tommy, let's talk about the Biden campaign's reaction and strategy going forward. You heard the president's speech in Raleigh. The campaign also says that after the debate, they had their best hour of fundraising yet. They've raised $14 million since last night. They are claiming that their own focus groups in polling look better. And other than that, full speed ahead.

What do you think of their strategy and sort of Biden's message at the rally where he acknowledged what happened? Yeah. So we all watched the rally. I think it was good that in his remarks, I think President Biden acknowledged the obvious, which is that last night didn't go well. It was sort of an oblique reference to it, but he acknowledged it. It was smart to do a big rally to show some energy behind a campaign that could use it right now. I think Biden was able to deliver some lines at this North Carolina event that they probably wanted him to land last night. So maybe that will help kind of shape the narrative on the margins, but you know, we'll see. But I do think we have to be honest about some big

challenges. The first of which is exponentially more people will watch the debate last night and the coverage of that debate than will ever see this rally. And that's just an unfortunate fact. The second is I just we're grading on a curve here. You know, like we're comparing a rally today to a very bad performance the other night. And, you know, if you really dig into the performance, like Biden is sticking with some lines that I feel like just don't really work. Like, I don't know what's going on

with the alley cat comparison. Why are we attacking unhoused cats? You know what I'm saying? I didn't know they were, they're known for their bad morality. Yeah, lack of morality, I didn't know. They live in the fucking alley. What are you begrudging them?

Oh, look at that immoral alley cat going through my garbage. What do you want it to do? The Supreme Court criminalized them living in those alleys just this morning. Now we're going after a bunch of unhoused alley cats. All cats are serial killers. I had cats. I love cats. They would leave dead bodies on our doorstep all the time.

If you die in your home, they will eat you. I don't want to live in a world where rich cats are held to one set of fucking rules. That's what I'm saying. He is also very proud of this line, comparing Donald Trump to Herbert Hoover. Herbert Hoover was president from 1929 to 1933. That is not a cultural touchstone for a lot of people. Yeah, but you remember your college years, you know? So I'm not a doomer. I'm not even close to giving up.

The fundraising numbers, I think, are good. A lot of this campaign will be waged through paid advertising. But like, I still feel like last night, President Biden dug a deep hole and I don't I'm not yet comfortable feeling that he has the capacity, the communication skills to get out of of that hole i think it's going to require some more work just to do a hard swerve here and what we're doing let's talk about what he what he said not how he said it at this rally because i think there's something concerning there right i'm i'm with you on the alley cat thing strange weird doesn't really hit thank you but what he said about his own debate performance that's that's the right thing to do you're supposed to go out and say you did poorly and then try to pivot to a better argument. What I am concerned about with the alley cat and the Trump lying is we are now pivoting back to an argument about who Donald Trump is. America knows who Donald Trump is. What this campaign should be about and what I think President Biden was intending to do with that debate last night was to make this a race about

what Donald Trump will do. And that is so essentially important. There aren't much people who are just going to wake up tomorrow and realize Donald Trump's an asshole. They know that, right? They're not going to wake up and realize he's a liar and change their vote. They have to focus on the damage he would do to their lives, the freedoms he would take away, what he would control if he gets reelected. And that has to be the message every single day going forward because we're running out

of time here. I totally agree with Dan. And I think there were two words missing from the 90 minutes last night, Project 2025. I would like- Two of many. Two of many. Two of many. But I would like the media to be talking about this. I would like the Democrats to be talking about this. I would like Trump to be put on the spot for what he plans to do in terms of putting the military on the streets and ripping families apart, et cetera, et cetera, firing half the government. And, you know, we have to ask some questions about the CNN debate coverage as well, right? I'm not going to defend Joe Biden's performance, but it took them 39 minutes to mention the fact

that the guy on stage is a convicted criminal. I would argue that should have been 39 seconds into the debate. I mean, I know, but like they probably, I am sure that Jake and Dana were like, well, Joe Biden is debating a convicted felon. He's probably going to bring that up on his own relatively early in the debate, since no presidential candidate has ever debated a convicted felon before. Look, Biden failed in that. And we can park that and say Biden failed at that. But the media's role there as ever. I mean, I've spent nine years trying to stop the normalization of Donald Trump in our media. I spent the last three years trying to stop the rehabilitation of Donald Trump in our media. I have failed miserably at both tasks. And I think last night's debate was evidence that Donald Trump is standing up there in the first debate since he was impeached for trying to

overturn American democracy, since he was foundached for trying to overturn American democracy, since he was found guilty for financial crimes, since he was adjudicated as a rapist by a judge in a civil trial, and we opened with, what about the economy? As if this is like any other presidential debate. What the hell? And by the way, by the way, John very kindly said I'm a guy who likes to debate.

I do. That was not a debate. You can't moderate a debate if you're not moderating. There has to be some kind of fact-checking. Donald Trump can't say, hey, they're trying to kill babies in Virginia, and then you go, thank you. Over to you, Joe Biden. I just don't. I fundamentally disagree with what we watch. There were plenty of times in that debate, multiple times,

the moderators followed up. The question was about the child tax credit or the question was about would you accept the election? I think they went back and forth. I just think like, sure, in a debate, a live fire exercise like that, are they going to follow up at every moment? No, but I do not believe any change in how that debate was moderated would have changed the outcome because ultimately that was not a failure of moderation. That was a failure of Joe Biden. There were plenty of moments where Joe Biden didn't do the basics that shouldn't have been up to the moderator. It wasn't their job to discover in real time that the person that showed up wasn't the Joe Biden of the state of the union, but something much, much worse.

And the reality is, I think Tommy's right. We are grading on a curve and you know what? That would be okay. We could accept that the best Joe Biden we could get was maybe the Joe Biden at the rally or the Joe Biden at the State of the Union, but not when the worst Joe Biden we ever have ever seen showed up at the most important moment in this campaign. That is the problem. It's not that his best isn't good enough. It's that his worst is too low for us to potentially get out of. And I don't know how to get out of that, but we just have to be honest about it. Yeah. Levitt, you'll be shocked to learn that Republicans are feeling great.

They're kind of just stepping back, eating popcorn while the news cycle plays out and the terrible debate clips make the rounds. Those Speaker Mike Johnson and others are calling the cabinet to remove Biden from office using the 25th Amendment. Seems like that's gilding the lily. But what are you thinking? What did you make of Trump's rally? You know, one of the points Trump made in his rally was like, oh, it's not about how old Joe Biden is.

It's about his incompetence. Because he is well aware that he doesn't have to do any work on the question of whether or not Joe Biden is too old because Joe Biden's doing that work for him. There's a moment where Trump was shit-talking Joe Biden by doing a golf swing

and saying, let's see Joe Biden do that. Like, this is a victory lap because he's winning. I mean, it wasn't a draw and we needed better than a draw. So of course they're going around and crowing. Of course they're going to do the same 25th Amendment shtick that we did.

They're having a great fucking time. It was a great time. Don't you think Trump's like, hey guys, chill with the whole 25th Amendment thing? Yeah, that's what I was. Let's just wait this out and let this thing play out for a minute. You think he doesn't want to do? I think he probably is pretty happy with the state of the race. I think Donald Trump is the master of the hashtag, every accusation is

a confession, right? So he's mastered everything he's ever said is taken from the other side. Fake news began as something about right-wing media. He weaponized it to make it about the media. And of course, if somebody accused him of, you know, we know that his own cabinet were considering the 25th Amendment. He loves this shit. He probably told them, go put it out there, 25th Amendment.

He didn't want them to go through with it. I saw some Republican tell a reporter, like, maybe we went a little too far because we needed Biden to be bad, but not so bad we get someone else. Well, that's I was wondering that, too. I right. I mean, I think there it's a little be careful. They're a little bit of caught the car here because of how bad it was. But I do think it's worth pointing out a distinction because, you know, I've seen people compare the Democratic reaction to Joe Biden to internal Republican concerns that they've had about Donald Trump. But there's an important distinction, which is I think Democrats right now, they're nervous and scared for the

country because they understand the stakes of this election. And I think that leads some people to believe the right thing to do is to embrace Joe Biden and continue on this path and others that believe that we need an open convention. But the one thing we're not is scared of each other. Republicans were afraid to question Donald Trump, not because they cared about the country, but because they were afraid of Donald Trump, because they believe Donald Trump was a threat, not just to the country, but to their own safety, that if they were honest about the threat MAGA posed, they would face physical intimidation, that they'd be having to worry for their families, that they would get death threats.

And I do think part of what is, I think, good about this moment is that we are reacting to this with, like, good old-fashioned democracy and having this open conversation, collectively trying to figure out what the best thing to do is. But are we doing that? Because you're right, there is the threat, you know, Joe Biden's not going to send people out to try and kill you or incite, you know, your death. But the conversation, is it really happening?

We're trying. We're trying, but like... Not at a senior level. But this morning, everyone's like, it has to be Jill and Barack. And then Barack said no. I know. I don't know what that tweet was all about. Well, look, if you go by, look, I think public-facing Democrats

are not putting their names to this. But in private, my goodness, are they being honest. Isn't that exciting? These anonymous Democrats are so smart. They're brave. They're so brave when they don't put their names on it, when they text the reporter. The ultimate collective action problem here,

which, again, which is what you said, which has been the Republican story since 2016. All these Republicans telling reporters like, we don't want Trump. I don't like Trump. I think Trump is crazy, but I don't want to be the one to say that because I don't want to get in trouble. And it's just a very, yeah, we don't want to be like that. We don't want to be like that. Well, there's two parts to this, right?

Like there is right now. It is understandable a lot of people who desperately like Joe Biden, care about Joe Biden and want to defeat Donald Trump rush to his defense at this moment, right? Yeah. Gavin Newsom, who was on everyone's list as someone who would run if the seat became open, was in the spin room. Like, what's he going to say, right? I mean, it would have been cool if he just declared them. That's right. But the person who throws the first stone is not going to be the nominee. You don't want to be holding the knife. If you're the one holding the knife, you're not getting the nomination. I would have liked to have watched the debate last night with Dean Phillips. That would have been fun.

What did he say? He got asked about it. He had a quote from Gandhi. Something cryptic. Yeah, he said, don't speak if it won't upset the silence or something like that. It was very good. But there's going to be another, there is this moment right now, and Biden has done a lot, and people have spoken out to stem the immediate bleeding.

But the question is going to be what happens in the polls over the next 10 to 14 days. It is possible that this moves just a little bit, or maybe it moves it a lot. And if it moves a lot, all of a sudden you're going to have a bunch of people who are Democrats running in red states or purple states or in purple districts who are all of a sudden going to freak out, right? If their numbers drop because of it. And we'll have to see what happens. But the big difference is, because we've talked about this, we all went through this when Obama had a horrible first debate against Mitt Romney. The difference is, first of all, it wasn't as bad as this, but the big thing, but even if it was, it was October, right? Barack Obama was the Democratic nominee. Just about every candidate, Republican or Democrat, who has had a terrible disaster of a debate in the presidential debate, it's been in the fall

after the party has nominated them officially. And now we are in a situation where if this was in October, we probably wouldn't be up here talking about this right now. We'd be like, yeah, it sucked. We have a couple of weeks to the election and we all just got to bear down and figure this out and just, and just, and just, we have five weeks right now. Exactly. So we had like, we have not nominated Joe Biden yet. So Dan, we talked last night about how, you know, it's not too late for Joe Biden to step aside if he decides the debate fallout is just too damaging. And he has to decide because it is too, like, it's his decision. You can't, no one's challenging him, but people voted for him.

The delegates are his, like, so he's got to decide. There are no indications so far that he'll do that. But one question we keep getting from everyone is, if he were to do that, what happens next? Like, what are the steps and what is the Democratic convention in Chicago and the weeks leading up to it look like? It's not just that no one is going to challenge him. It's that no one can challenge him. He has an overwhelming majority of the delegates legally pledged to him. They are legally obligated, in many states by state law, to vote for the winner of the state's popular vote on the first ballot. So if all of a sudden Dean Phillips

or some other Democrat were to come out and say, this is a bad idea, I'm going to challenge him, that means nothing. That person has no access to delegates. They could possibly get the sliver of uncommitted delegates from people who voted uncommitted in the primaries, but that would be nowhere near what you would need. So I think if Joe Biden were to decide tomorrow that he was not going to run, he was going to step aside, he was going to finish his term as president, but not run for re-election, there are two paths.

The first path is he steps aside and he says, I am endorsing Kamala Harris, my vice president, to be the party's nominee. Someone could challenge her, but what likely happens there is that all of Biden's delegates, if he's not running, become unpledged. They can vote for anyone on the first ballot, but they're all people that his campaign handpicked and are loyal to the president. So if he were to say, I would like my delegates to support my vice president, she likely becomes a nominee. The party coalesces around her. I'd be shocked if anyone of consequence, the other people we talked about, Newsom, Whitmer, et cetera, were to run. And so the general election against Donald Trump would start that day. She'd be the presumptive nominee. She would have to

pick a vice presidential nominee. She'd still have to be ratified by the convention, but that'd be a no drama event. And we would just be off and running Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump. Maybe she ends up debating him in September, that previously scheduled debate. The other option would be that Biden steps aside and says, I'm going to let the process play itself out. Some number of Democrats, more than five, maybe as many as 50, would announce they're running for president. And those people would begin a sprint to get support from delegates. They would do meetings. They'd seek endorsements. They'd come on Pod Save America at every possible opportunity. And they would head towards the convention. And we'd get to the convention. And it's

theoretically possible that someone, some person or a ticket that formed together could amass endorsements from enough delegates that others would drop out. But the most likely scenario is what we call a brokered convention. They would go there and they would address the convention. The delegates would vote. You would need to get just about 2,000 votes to win because you have to get the majority. It's not plurality. You have to get a majority of the delegates. So you'd have your five candidates who make it all the way there. They all address the convention. Convention votes. Almost certainly no one gets a majority in that scenario. They vote again. And then the second vote, the superdelegates come in, right? Second vote, the superdelegates come in. The superdelegates, 700 superdelegates are

party officials, elected officials, former presidents, former party chairs. They all get a vote um they used to be more involved in the process than they weren't because it was like too much influence from party insiders and so now they can't vote in the first ballot but in the second ballot the super delegates right they can't they can't pick the nominee they can't influence who becomes the nominee on the first ballot but they can get involved in the second ballot and you just keep voting and keep voting and keep voting until you get an actual nominee. This was actually an episode of the West Wing at one time, which is why everyone calls this Sorkin-esque fan fiction.

And twist, it worked. In that case, it did work. And so the question is, that could be incredibly messy, it could be incredibly divisive, or it could be a process that ends with everyone understanding that whoever eventually gets the majority, we're going to coalesce behind them because there is nothing more important than beating Donald Trump.

Dan, what you just did is a fantastic and invaluable explainer. But just for the crowd, I just want you to add on something else. What happens between August and November? If Biden pulls out, or God forbid something happens to his health? Well, I left out actually a very important wrinkle in this whole process, which is, as of right now,

the DNC is actually planning on scheduling a virtual roll call so that Joe Biden can officially become the nominee before the convention, because in order to be on the ballot by state law in Ohio, you have to have the nominee by August 7th. Our convention starts on August 19th. So we would have to either cancel that roll call, you'd have to move it up and do this all by virtual roll call, which seems impossible to me,

or you'd have to get Ohio to change the law, which they do not want to do because they don't make things easy for us. And it's a Republican governor and Republican state legislature. Or agreed not to be on the ballot in Ohio. Now that seems we're not competing. Biden's not going to compete in Ohio or other Democrats are not going to compete in Ohio. But not having a presidential candidate on the ballot could, because Trump will be on the ballot, could affect turnout for Sherrod Brown and congressional races there. So that is an important wrinkle. Now, what happens if Biden were to decide afterwards?

The DNC actually scarily explored this in 2016 when Hillary Clinton had that incident on 9-11, where she had a concussion. And the DNC members would get together and pick a new nominee. Now, that person would almost certainly be Kamala Harris because she would be the one person who had been ratified by a majority of the delegates as vice president. But so they have the power to change it.

Now, it's even more complicated if the states have printed their ballots. Oh. Because we've had situations in the past, like in 2000 when the governor of Missouri died in a plane crash, his name was on the ballot, and he ended up winning. His wife said she would fill his

seat. So you could be in a role, if that were to happen, Biden could still be on the ballot, but not running for president. But a vote for Biden could elect. So, it's complicated. Democracy. Everybody feels good? How's that? Is that good? Happy Friday. Democracy. Everybody feels good. How's that? Is that good?

Yeah. Happy Friday. You're thinking about it. All right. When we come back, we are bringing out your governor, Maura Healey. Welcome back. So, we are in Boston to help launch our new book, Democracy or Else. Seems like Else is winning right now, but that's okay.

But because Tommy and I are proud mass holes, we're always looking for an excuse to come back home. And we are especially excited to be here right now that you've elected a fantastic Democrat

to represent the Commonwealth again. Please welcome to the stage your governor, Maura Healey. Oh, my God. This is the best thing ever. Are you kidding me? Thank you. Holy shit, there's a lot of sugar in this.

Oh, my God. Not enough for me. This reminds me of the summer I spent, the summer between high school and college. I painted the exterior of houses, and I would get a Duncan Nistall extra sugar triple cream, you know, kind of white goop up to here. So thank you very much. And it's hard to paint at 10 o'clock at night because you'd still be up.

Exactly. Governor, I will tell you what this reminds me of a couple hours ago. Because I have had four of these since we've been in Boston. It's amazing. And you had like six in New York, too. Six in New York, too. I love Dunkin' Donuts. John postmates Dunkin' Donuts to his house in Los Angeles. I do. He like

lives and dies. And you know what? I postmate the coffee with this exact donut because my son Charlie is obsessed with this donut. So, thank you. This is amazing. Good for Charlie. Welcome home, guys. Thank you. Let's welcome these guys back to Massachusetts. Honestly, right?

North Reading? We have North Reading in the house? North Reading? Yeah. All right. Here we go. Here we go. And Worcester?

Hornet. And Dedham? Dedham. What's up, Dedham? Amazing. How are ya? I said Dedham, not Dover. Oh, no, Dedham. I'm Dedham. My mom's Dover.

All right. So I want to start with a topic I know you must be as excited as we are to talk about. Last night's debate. So I love Joe Biden. I support Joe Biden. I am eternally grateful to Joe Biden for defeating Donald Trump and for accomplishing just an amazing number of things as president. As you just heard us talk about, what I am worried about is Joe Biden's ability to defeat Donald Trump again. What about Joe Biden's performance last night makes you confident that he can beat Donald Trump again? Well, how about those Celtics? See, yeah, that would have been easier.

No, I mean, I think what we got to remember here, this is about defeating Donald Trump. And for all of Joe Biden's failures last night, and it was a big fail. I mean, that was horrible. It was tough to watch. We also had standing next to him, somebody who just repeatedly lied. And actually, if you weren't so distracted watching Joe Biden and listened, what he said was downright scary. So I think, John, part of what gives me confidence is that this is about defeating Donald Trump, what he says he will do, what he's talked about. Because if there's one thing we know from the Trump years, as the guy who brags to this day about overturning Roe, when he says something, he's going to do it. So I think that's where we are right now. And we need to settle from the other night, but continue to really press on what this is about. And this

is about keeping Donald Trump out of the Oval Office. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think it's also about talking about what has happened the last few years that has been good. People's rights and freedoms have been protected. We're on a new course. We see the benefit of it here in Massachusetts, where we are home to North America's first utility-scale offshore wind facility. All of that is happening because Joe Biden and that administration is standing up a climate economy. So these are some of the good things that we really need to be focused on and talking about and that are very important. I mean, look at the healthy economy. How many students are worried about debt right now? How many young people can't afford homes right now?

Joe Biden's building homes. He's relieving student debt, right? He's finding ways to grow salaries. We've got a problem with inflation, no doubt, right? But we had a heck of a lot to come out of and to come through. Yeah, and he's done an incredible job, and he's clearly a better choice on every single issue. A couple other New England Democrats were asked about this today. Senator Jeanne Shaheen said, we'll let the process play out. Senator Jack Reed from Rhode Island said, it's Joe Biden's decision. If Joe Biden called you and asked for your advice and said, you know, I'm not sure what I should do. Should I stay in? Should I not?

What would you tell Joe Biden? You know, the one thing I think I believe so deeply about Joe Biden is that he is a true patriot. He loves this country. And he's a thoroughly decent human being. I don't think it's about telling Joe Biden anything. Okay. Okay. So Governor, you kind of, you ticked through some of President Biden's accomplishments that helped younger voters, but you know, it's a fact that the Biden campaign is doing very well with people over 65, but is struggling badly with younger voters. How do you think the campaign should tweak its message or its policy to make

sure that they're appealing to Bill Belichick and his girlfriend? Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. We got this guy. Do you know, we got this new guy, though. It's Gerard Mayo, though. Great coach. Good things, you know.

We're going to build on winning streaks here. You know, I don't know. More.5s maybe. I think it's about talking to the issues. I mean, this is about defeating Donald Trump. But I'll tell you, the one thing we have to do is remind young people what this is about. Young people care about the economy. They actually want to be able to afford a house. They want to be able to afford to have a kid, right? They want to be able to grow in a career and in opportunities. And, you know, Donald Trump's the guy who all he did was cut taxes for the very, very wealthy. You know, it's been Democrats who've

been finding ways to relieve student debt, to build more housing, to support the middle class. It's Donald Trump who wants to raise costs, including by doing things like cutting social security and cutting Medicare, which are for an older population. But those are also people's parents, right? So if you're young, you care about the economy. You care about healthcare. You sure care about access to reproductive healthcare. Did you know in Worcester, John knows this. John spent a lot of time at the cross. The cross. The cross.

And we love Bob Cousy. Do you know what else Worcester produced other than the amazing fabs? The birth control pill. You got it. So young people, you know, young people actually care about things like having access to contraception and health care generally. And they care a lot about climate. They care a lot about climate and they are not going to be well served by somebody who is just going to allow billionaires and fossil fuel CEOs to write a check and determine the fate of this country and this planet. That's what young people have to know.

Didn't Clarence Thomas go to Holy Cross? He did. Yeah. Yeah. Me and Clarence Thomas. And Bill Simmons. When it comes to birth control, Worcester giveth and taketh away, I suppose. Tough. Tough but fair. Apologies. So, Governor, you recently sent a team down to the border to basically educate migrants about the lack of space in homeless shelters here in Massachusetts. For those who don't know, I believe Massachusetts is the only state in the country that has a right to shelter law. I believe it was passed in 1983 by Governor Dukakis.

An incredibly kind, decent, empathetic effort that I think has been sort of overtaken by events, right, because of changes in migration. What does it say to you about how broken our immigration system is when the governor of a state sort of has to send delegates to essentially say, please don't come to our state because it might overwhelm the services? I mean, how can you even address that? Yeah, Tommy, well, I mean, this is not a new issue. And most recently, it's Republicans in Congress who passed twice, failed to take action on necessary border reform, immigration reform, that would have included relief for states like Massachusetts that are now having to house this extraordinary number of new migrants because of the geopolitical situation and the violence in other countries.

So that's just a damn shame, right? That there was a path, there were things that were going to be done. So I support the president's executive action. I think that's absolutely necessary. And what I've said here, and I'm proud of the people of Massachusetts because, you know, we have found ways to house people, but we've reached full capacity here. The good news is we've been able to process people for work permits. So, you know, about 3,700 out of 4,000 have been processed for work permits. They're working now. They're taking ESL, right? And they're here lawfully. And, you know, that's, but I wanted to send folks to the border because I needed to communicate to service providers and others there that the situation here in

Massachusetts, and, you know, we are a humane people, and we are a humane state, but we don't want people coming here if we're not going to be able to safely house them, and that's where we're at, but what needs to happen is that this is a federal issue. The federal government and Congress needs to act. And if you put governors in the room and they were honest with you, Republican and Democrat, we'd sort this out

because we know what needs to happen, but there's a lack of political will right now and a lot of obviously politics and gamesmanship. And it's ridiculous because people are paying the price. So... You mentioned some of what you've been doing around the issue of abortion. You recently asked health care providers in the state to stockpile doses of abortion medication. You said this week that if Trump and Republicans in a possible Trump administration

actually enact a national abortion ban, that you would absolutely not enforce it in this state. How confident are you that could withstand legal challenges and a potential future administration that has talked about like sending federal agents and troops into recalcitrant blue states that don't pay attention to what they want to do on abortion, immigration. How are you thinking about that? Well, I'm just thinking about what's right, you know, and I can wear my old hat as an attorney general and talk about protecting the freedom of choice,

the freedom of bodily autonomy. I mean, how outrageous is it that right now, because of Donald Trump and what he said he would do, which he then did in overturning Roe, one in three American women live in a state with an abortion ban. I mean, it's outrageous. So I think my job is to make sure in Massachusetts, you know, after Dobbs, we stockpiled doses of Miffy. So we have those for years to come because I want women here protected. We pass laws to make sure that patients and providers here and elsewhere were protected. And yes, this week I issued an executive order knowing this case was up and coming out of the Supreme Court that said, in Massachusetts, let's be clear,

any woman who needs emergency care, including emergency abortion care, hospitals are going to provide it and insurers are going to cover it. That is the way it's going to continue to be. So I... I... Governor, when I was a kid, when John was a kid, New York was our sports rival. The Yankees always beat us. The Mets and the Rangers had like one year each.

We won't talk about it. We lost some games to the Jets in the regular season. The Knicks were okay. Now the whole state is pathetic. Do we need a new rival to replace New York when it comes to sports?

Ouch! I love that. And we also got to tweak Dan, right? Because Dan's from Philly. Yeah. I mean, it's really, isn't it a shame? Is it? Do you ever

get sick of riding on duck boats? Good times. That, um, we've been so blessed, right? Yes! Is the duck boat maintenance bill, like, through the roof? You gotta get some budget cuts? It's the tires, you know, they wear. Seriously, you were telling us upstairs how much you love this Celtics team,

how fun it was to be out with them. I mean, just talk about it for me, because you are a basketball fan. You are a basketball player. So you understand the sport. You've lived and bled on the court with folks. Tell us what this team meant to you. My God. Well, who's from Massachusetts here, right?

Yes. I mean, this team was awesome. And they're just, to a person, such incredible humans. They're out in the community. They're doing all sorts of things. But what I loved about this team, and it reminds me of 86 too, and you're too young, but we had these guys, Bird. That's Larry Bird. Parrish and McHale and Ainge and DJ, these guys. And they were superstars, but on any given night, people were ready to step up and play. And with this team, it was the same thing. We had all these people who were like, any

given night, somebody was ready to show. And so the other thing I like about this team is it's really hard if you're number one and you're at the top to go into the playoffs with that pressure and perform the way they did. And it's super cool. They're built for success.

So hopefully we'll give them a break and root on our Red Sox and our Patriots. And soon it'll be back in the garden, the Celts. So I saw that a couple weeks ago you named, I think it was June 12th, Tom Brady Day. You said, you issued a proclamation that he was a goat. We love goat debates here, and I guess we're sports media for the next six minutes.

None of our listeners know what the fuck we're talking about. It's like the Venn diagram for this episode is like one guy. He works for us. His name is Elijah. Let's do something really annoying for you. Can we rank the following Celtics greats? Larry Bird, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Paul Pierce, Bill Russell. Wow.

Well, let me go through all different eras, okay? I go back to Bill Russell who played with Cousy. Bill Russell, iconic. His civil rights. Yeah. All the work that he advanced. Zero. Just an incredible athlete.

Holy Cross also gave us Bob Cousy. Enough with Clarence Thomas. Yeah. You know what you did. So, you know, it's hard to... He's in his own category. And then Larry Bird, you know, he's in his own category. The way Larry Bird, he's in his own category. The way he saw the floor and everything that he was able to do.

The Jays, here they're starting out. They're 26, 27. So let's give them a few years. And I love Paul. It was great to see Paul back with his headband in the garden. He also had a good title. So that is a very politic way of non-responding. Smart, smart.

I would say beautifully handled. And Paul Pierce, if you're listening, stay off the live streams, you know? Another joke for like seven people. Governor Healy, thank you so much for joining us. Fantastic. Thank you. The audacity of Bostonians.

To boo New York City, you are Philadelphia with smarter assholes and worse sandwiches. What the fuck, man? Unbelievable. Just because you have cobblestones on the street doesn't make you fucking sophisticated.

You need to talk shit about the fucking Freedom Trail, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Come on? Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Yeah, yeah. The second you're cornered, it's Liberty Bell, Liberty Bell, Liberty Bell. Hey.

Y'all heard Governor Healy's answer on whether Joe Biden should stay in the race. This is something we didn't just pick on her. Every single current and former Democratic elected official has been asked today. So far, no Democrat in higher office has called for him to step aside. And the responses, when asked, have ranged from vague hedging to full-throated defense of Biden as the nominee. Here's a sample. We've got to have the back of this president. You don't turn your back because of one performance.

What kind of party does that? You go home with the one that brought you to the dance. 100% all in. Do you think President Biden is the best messenger for the top of the ticket? I'm a very big supporter of President Biden. He's been a great president and done great things for our country. Thank you. There were calls even inside the House in the Democratic Party

that he should step aside as the nominee. What do you say to that? This is an administration that gets things done, and it's because of his leadership. It's his decision what he wants to do going forward. What are you going to tell him? What did you make of his performance last night? State, of course. Joe Biden had one thing he had to do tonight, and that was reassure America that he was up to the job at his age.

And he failed at that tonight. So I'd say things are a bit in flux right now. And since we said on last night's episode, and we just talked about earlier, that Democrats should not be afraid to have an honest debate about this issue in public, we're going to kick things off right now. And who better to have with us to do this than Mehdi, one of the best debaters and author of How to Win Every Argument. Love it. How's this going to work?

What do we do? What happens next? Could it work? Should we? That's not just what happened after Tommy and I accidentally brushed hands once after three martinis. That's what Democrats across the country who admire and respect Joe Biden

but worry about whether he is the right person to take on Trump are asking each other. And there are good arguments for sticking with Joe Biden and good arguments for seeking an open convention. So we're going to debate it right here on stage. Here's how it works. John, Mehdi, Tommy, and Dan will form two teams at random. One is riding with Biden

into victory, the abyss, wherever The other wants to do to the Democratic convention what a gay couple does to their relationship after a long and difficult conversation in Palm Springs Open it up So first we will choose teams Austin bring out the ceremonial hat Austin everybody

It's Austin's birthday tomorrow What? Happy birthday Austin Happy birthday Okay First we will choose the pro-Biden team. All right? And then, I guess, by process of elimination,

we'll get the other team. It's only four names in the hat. Our names are in the hat? Yeah, it should have been teams in the hat. Come on. What the hell? Hold on. We're pro-Biden and just anti-Biden.

We're not pro-another candidate. You are pro-Biden remaining the candidate. And what's the other side? The other side is wanting an open convention. Got it. Wanting Biden to step aside and have an open convention. All right. We'll do Biden's side first.

The Biden side will be Dan. And Tommy. Oh, wow. So stay right there. No, that worked out well. And John. Oh, boy. The upside is we don't have to move seats. What? Big win. We don't have to right there. No, that worked out well. Medi and John. The upside is we don't have to move seats.

Big win. We don't have to move seats. Don't have to move seats. So Medi and John will argue for an open convention. Each team will have an opening statement. Each team will have a rebuttal. Then we will converse. The timing will be at my discretion.

The rules are loose. The microphones will not be muted. Why? Because we're all adults who live in a society. We begin with Team Joe. One of you can issue the opening remarks. Sure, sure. You want me to do it? Happy to or let rip? Go for it. You do it. OK, so we're Joe Biden. Here's the reason he should stay in this whole thing. It was one debate. You spineless weenies.

Wow. Biden did poorly in almost every single primary debate in 2020. And then he won. We're making way too big a deal of this. Also, the period between now and the election is an eternity in political terms. Remember the insurrection? Neither does anybody else. Calm down. Joe Biden was counted out in 2020. He was counted out in 2022. He showed all of you what he was made of, and he'll do it again. Joe Biden exiting the stage right now will lead to nothing but chaos. There is no clear or obvious choice for who would succeed him. The process would be messy

and disastrous. There will be factions. There will be vicious attacks. It will be a disaster, and the worst of the party will be on display for the entire world to see. And finally, you can get elected statewide in a state like California or Michigan or wherever, and you get vetted by the press, kind of, but nothing compares to the proctology exam that is running for president. Every human being has skeletons in his or her closet. They will come out during the general election, and there will not be time for the Democratic Party to vet them beforehand. Stick with Joe Biden. We know him. He got us here. Go home with the horse you dated or some shit. Sure. Whatever. Yeah. Whatever Newsom got us here. Go home with the horse you dated or some shit.

Sure. Whatever Newsom said. Yeah, go home with that. Go home with the alley cat that brought you. Fuck that alley cat. Wow. Powerful words. Rough landing, but he got there.

Much like Joe Biden at his best. That's your fucking line? Okay. They're mad about the sandwich thing. Mehdi, you want to take us away for the broker jokers? I do. I do want to go first because I wasn't going to go first, but then I heard Tommy speak and I thought,

this is just too easy. Wow. This is like when I was in the White House and met you with a journalist and used to kick our ass. You know what Tommy said? You know what Tommy said? To lose the entire debate? He said it's an eternity until the election.

So if it's an eternity until the election, why the fuck do you want an 81-year-old guy waiting for an eternity? I don't want to wait any longer. Four months? Yeah, that's an eternity. My dad is 86 years old. He's one of the smartest, most knowledgeable,

most hardworking people I've ever met. My dad doesn't want to be put in charge of anything right now, let alone the nuclear codes. And by the way, when you're making the case for Joe Biden, don't mention proctology exams. That's not helping your side either. It's just not. Last but not least,

last but not least, let's just deal with this debate bullshit. It was just one bad night. Obama-Romney. Obama-Romney, there wasn't that much at stake. The guy wanted a binders full of women. He wanted to put his dog on the car.

Democracy is at stake in this election, and therefore we need a guy who's not going to say, beat Medicaid and run out of steam. we need a guy who's not going to say, beat Medicaid and run out of steam. We need a guy who's going to beat the fascists, save American democracy, and that requires big D Democrats to put their big boy pants on and sort this shit out

and have a broker convention in August and have some democracy. Everyone in this room knows that John doesn't even need to speak. We've already won. Wow. Big D Democrat energy over there. Look at that. Powerful words. Dan, can I respond? Sure. I can explain why we have to stick with Joe Biden. We give you two words. Ron DeSantis. You may say, huh, why am I saying that?

Let me tell you. Ron DeSantis never ran against Donald Trump. And Donald Trump had just been, say, I don't know, convicted of 34 felonies and sentenced to prison, and they were looking for another candidate to replace him. They would have picked Ron DeSantis. Looks great on paper. Governor.

Seems like he had presidential timber. He would have gotten in that race and shat the bed in five minutes. We do not know who our Ron DeSantis is. Any single person we pick could end up being bad and worse than Joe Biden. I, in my long career, because I'm older than you guys, have met with dozens of people who thought they would be president. Governors, senators, members of Congress, business people. They all seemed impressive on paper. They seemed impressive in the meeting. Most of them never got off the launching pad because there is nothing harder in American

life than running for president. It is the going from even the governor of a state like California to running for president is like t-ball to game seven of the World Series. We at least know for all of his flaws that Joe Biden can win a presidential Series. We at least know, for all of his flaws, that Joe Biden can win a presidential election. We know that there are tens of millions of people who have voted for him or willing to vote for him again. He is behind in this race, but he's not behind by much. What happens if we pick the wrong person? Because there was no going back then.

Can I follow up on that as the moderator and my discussion? My boy's wicked smart. I will go to John in a second. Wow, moderator who moderates. Isn't that... I appreciate the fear of the unknown, but that's

an argument against any new person from running for president. That's an argument for gerontocracy. Because you have a primary. You have a year and a half long primary. Like, it was very possible that when we all, when those of us who went to go work for Obama on the very first day, that he never made it out of the first two months. But he had what it took. He had to get, he got knocked

down, he got up, he had to sit before Edwards, he had to go to 13 debates to do all of these things. There is a process to get the wheat from the chaff. We are going to skip that process here. We're going to pick up, we're going to allow, I don't know if you've ever been to a convention. You ever met the delegates? We're going to ask a group of people who collect pins for a living to pick our president. John? Have you ever met the delegates just won this whole thing? John, tough hit.

Tough hit on the delegates, I assume many of whom are fucking listening. Tough hit on hyper-engaged partisan activist Democrats doing the daily grinding work of keeping our party alive. Over to you, John. This is not about Joe Biden as a human being, because he's a wonderful human being. This is not about Joe Biden as a president.

He has accomplished legislatively more than almost any president of our lifetime. I think you could even argue more than Barack Obama, okay? And I think he has done a fantastic job. This is about Joe Biden as a candidate. You know who our Ron DeSantis is? Joe Biden. Because we saw it last night.

Because that was the, Because in terms of performance, that was not just the worst debate, that was the worst public performance of anything we've ever seen. 70% of voters have a problem with Joe Biden's age. It's concerning them. And Joe Biden won 2020 by 40,000 votes across three states. That was 2020. That was before any other polls. In that election, he was leading Donald Trump by 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 points, going into this debate, which was the worst disaster in modern debates, in any debate. Joe Biden was behind Donald Trump in the debate.

The debate was the one moment that more people were watching this race than any other moment that will happen in the campaign. And we hope that there's a debate in September, but if you're Donald Trump, why would you agree to the debate in September after you just did that? So now we have a convention in August where Joe Biden will hopefully, presumably give a great speech. And then Donald Trump, Donald Trump in July will give a great speech, and there will be no more moments, and the race will be frozen like this. The biggest challenge in this race has been to capture people's attention

in a very fractured media environment. There are now no more opportunities because there's one opportunity. When 50 million Americans tuned in, Joe Biden did not show up. The Democratic Party does not have a problem with the party. We won the 2022 midterms. Josh Shapiro won in Pennsylvania by double digits.

Gretchen Whitmer won in Michigan by double digits. Raphael Warnock, the first black senator from Georgia, won in an extremely difficult state multiple times. He won. We have, since Donald Trump has won the presidency in 16, Democrats,

younger, like energetic Democrats, diverse from the left to the center left, women, men, black, white, have won all over this country. The party does not have a problem with Democrats.

It has a problem with Joe Biden. That's what people are trying to tell us right now. And a convention would be, look, a convention is risky. It is definitely risky. We could end up with a candidate, like Dan said, who then goes through the ringer over the next couple months, and we'll all sit down and be like, oh, this was worse. This was worse than Joe Biden. But this is democracy, right? All the candidates that are going to run will get to make speeches. There will be polls. Yes, the delegates will pick. Would it be better if voters picked? Yeah, of course. But that's not where we are right now. We're in a situation where in just a couple months, Joe Biden could lose to someone who wants to end democracy, which we know because he tried to overturn democracy four years ago.

That's where we are right now. So why not? I'm sorry. I'm going to have to. Sir, can I respond? Can you mute his mic, please? I'm going to need to let them respond. I'm going to have to let them respond. Speaking of overturning democracy, we have a process to pick our nominee. We had that. We went through that process. Anyone could have run. No one. Dean Phillips ran. Marianne Williamson ran. We all could have voted for them. We didn't. We voted for Joe Biden. And now, like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of another person who after an election is over, doesn't like the results, and then

consider storming a meeting in which people are certifying the results of that election. of that election. Wow. Wow. I have to say, that's a low blow, Dan. And I want to keep this civil. I do want to... First he's like, they're all collectors of pins.

Then he's like, don't hurt them. I want to ask about a specific problem and why we shouldn't worry about it, which is, if we were to go to some kind of an open convention, what is the cost of a period of time in which Donald Trump has the stage to himself and Democrats are arguing with each other

rather than fighting Donald Trump directly? That's a great question, John. Thanks. Stage to himself. A contested Democratic convention, which has not happened since 1968, I was just talking about the biggest challenge in this election, is attention.

We'll get more attention, more media attention, than anything that has happened in politics in a decade. And Donald Trump will be yapping away, posting on Truth Social, and the attention of the rest of the country will be on the diverse array of Democratic candidates that are at that convention talking about the values of our party, where they're going to take this country, what they've done in their states. That's what the attention

is going to be at a Democratic convention that's messy. Will there be arguments? Yeah, there'll be plenty of arguments. There'll be arguments between the left and the center-left, and we'll have to deal with all that. But you know what? Unlike the primaries that we've been through that last like a year, a year and a half, it will be condensed. It will be a couple of weeks of debate and argument and then we will have a nominee. Also, Americans like new shit. They do. Sorry, I'm

I've been an American for four years and that's what I've noticed. You go into the grocery, it's always something new. Why do you think there's so many freaking sequels in Hollywood? But I think people like new stuff. Let me just be the skunk in the room here and bring up a topic that I know no one really wants to talk about, but it is crucial to this conversation,

which is if you don't have Joe Biden on the ticket, you don't just deal with the age issue, you deal with the Gaza issue to an extent. And to an extent, I've been to Georgia, I've been to Michigan recently. Every single brown person I met, people who voted Democrat all their lives, say we're not voting Democratic. We want to punish Biden. Now don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you that is what people are saying. And if you get rid of Biden, you do kind of deal with that problem which

is a fresh start for the Democratic Party. The next guy comes in and gets to talk only about ceasefire, not about eight months of providing weapons. And I think that will help hugely. Before the age thing came along, I thought Biden might lose because of Michigan, Georgia, and all the young people and people of color I've heard who say they won't vote for Biden.

Tommy, we've heard a pretty beautiful idea of the democratic process in action at an open convention. Do you have any concerns about what that might look like? Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest with you, John, I'm just kind of sad, you know, listening to this. You guys have the loyalty of an alley cat and you guys are acting like a couple of giant Democrats you know what I'm saying?

I do know what you're saying listen that was a rhetorical flirt putting the D in Democrats, is that what you were going to say? I thought where you were going to go was, it also deals with the problem of incumbency. We talk about Joe Biden's age as one of the reasons he's been very unpopular the last four years,

but I do think for all that Joe Biden has accomplished and for the fact that in this country, inflation has gone down faster than almost anywhere else in the world, incumbents across the world right now are facing real political challenges. It doesn't matter if they're left, center left, center right. There's an anti-incumbent mood that has happened because it's a post-COVID, post-inflation thing that has been hurting incumbents all over the world. And if you have a new nominee from a state that has not been around for the last four years

making decisions, then that is a fresh start. Now, Dan, is it difficult hearing an argument like this from someone like Mehdi when you find out that he has the food taste of a four-year-old child and has never tasted sushi and has literally never had a fucking smoothie in his life? How can a person that incurious about the world be someone we take seriously in a debate as important as this? I, for one,

do not want to delve into personal attacks here. I don't want to end this on sort of our version of the great golf handicap debate of 2024. I would like to respond to John's idea about media coverage, because I think he has it backwards. I personally do not subscribe to the Kim Kardashian theory that all press

is good press. And what I would say is the Kim Kardashian theory that all press is good press. And what I would say is, the problem is not that maybe we have a great open convention and there are great candidates and it's very friendly, but the problem of the seven weeks where Donald Trump is running unopposed is that there is

no attention on Donald Trump. Every single moment of press is on us. It's who is Gretchen Whitmore talking to. It's how we prepare. What do you think the Democrats are going to be talking about? Not beating Donald Trump? No, we're going to be fighting with each other. Have you been in a primary before? Let one person speak at a time.

No, no, no. I will finish my point real quickly and hand it over generously to Mute my mic if you dare. Dan, that's, I mean, sorry, that's BS. 90 minutes last night was a chance to go after Trump, and they blew the 90 minutes last night, and you keep saying, well, the people voted, the people voted.

I dare you to ask all those people to vote again this morning after what they watched last night. It's just not the same thing. We're in a very different place. People saw the car crash in front of their eyes. I understand that. I respect that. I respect your food choices as well. I think they're yours.

On food choices, I am not going to be lectured on food choices by the side that is promoting the ice cream guy for another four years. We have that much in common. We know you want a mulligan, but Joe Biden just hits

big, sweet, long drives. And that's what we're going to keep doing here. And I think that that's a beautiful place to leave this very, actually, genuinely interesting and passionate debate.

I think that actually did a great job of representing the fact that anyone who says this is easy or that we shouldn't have this debate uh is not being honest uh and um that's it once you all to know we've had this debate many times i could have argued we all could have argued the other side too yeah we have absolutely because it really is it is a that is how tough the

choice is and that is how good the arguments are on both sides. It is a very difficult situation, which is why we've talked about having this in public. Because I think people who deeply believe that we should stick with Joe Biden, I get it. I totally respect it. People who think, no, he should step down,

I totally get that too. We're in a fucking tough space. Find people on both sides. That is my, yeah. That's the key thing here. No labels. When we come back, a game. When disaster strikes, we think of all who are directly impacted,

whether it's a natural disaster like a snowstorm or a man-made disaster like what Kanye did to that mansion in Malibu. All right, not an architecture TikTok. Well, we think of almost everyone who is impacted, but when there is a massive blunder or mistake or human error, when a decision is made that cannot be unmade, we often overlook one particular impacted individual, the poor spokesperson sent out to the microphones to defend the company whose oil tanker

is currently coating an endangered seal with crude, or the aircraft manufacturer struggling to keep doors attached to the planes, or the campaign whose candidate was chased into a bathroom stall by the National Enquirer while he was visiting his secret baby. I didn't work there anymore. I made reference to Baghdad Bomb

to a producer who I realized was too young to understand the reference. That was my personal disaster. So here's how it works. I am going to assign a disaster to each of our boys out here, and they will have to spin that disaster. Are you ready? I hope so.

First up, Dan, you are the spokesperson for the Big Dig, and you are the spokesperson for the big dig. And you are... And you are speaking to someone who sat in traffic from 1987 to 2006. Okay. Are we ready? We're ready. Go. All right. Look, I get it.

No one likes traffic. You have places to be. You have things to do. I understand that. It I get it. No one likes traffic. You have places to be. You have things to do. I understand that. It can be frustrating. It can be annoying. I feel your pain. But I think you're thinking about it wrong.

It's not just that you're waiting in traffic. Like the greatest generation, you are sacrificing for future generations. There will be a day, maybe a decade from now, maybe a decade from now, maybe several decades from now, when your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren are getting from Charlestown to Dorchester on time.

They're getting to Logan Airport without any traffic. And they will, like the greatest generation, they will think back to what you did to help them. That your time in traffic is sacrifice for their punctuality. Dan, think about the Zakem Bridge. You are very slowly storming your own Omaha Beach. Dan, I gotta press, as a journalist in this case. Hey, when a project takes an extra decade and $8 billion,

don't you think there should be someone in charge of gluing the ceiling to the fucking roof? Time's a construct. All right. Well done, Dan. Well done. Next up. Let's go to Tommy. You are the spokesperson for Mitt Romney after he put the family dog on the roof of his car.

And you are trying to defend yourself to Sarah McLachlan. Hey, Sarah, thanks for taking my call. I know we'd reached out about licensing your music for the Mitt Romney Senate Family Library, and this is why I think it will work for you. The fake news media has written a lot about strapping Seamus to the roof of a car.

What they don't talk about in these stories is that dogs famously love putting their faces out of cars when you drive them places. So why not go the extra yard? Why not level up the experience for your dog? Wow. Powerful words. I actually think that that's a really good point.

I can't believe how much hay we made out of that. Dogs love being outside in their cars. It's like a dream come true. It's al fresco. People didn't like it. It was fucking weird. It is weird. Hey, wait a second. That's weird. Well, now

in fairness, it was a drive from Boston to Canada. I do think the dog shit down the window. Not really making a good case for yourself now. But, if you give your music to us,

it will remain in the arms of a Romney. Oh, wow. Well done, Tommy. Thank you. Thanks. Next up, Mehdi. Chernobyl is unfolding.

And boy, do you have bad luck. Because at the very moment they're trying to figure out how to place a kind of cement sarcophagus over the steaming disaster site, it's your job to convince the people of Worcester that it's Worcester. Worcester. How do you say it?

Worcester. Worcester. Worcester. of Wooster. That it's Wooster. Wooster. How do you say it? Wooster. Wooster. Wooster. Boo. Wooster. Oh, please. It's a city. Oh, please.

That's where I went to college. That's not on me. You pick half the fucking letters to pronounce you illiterate fucks. Please. Wooster. Please. Worcester. Worcester. Yeah.

You got your accent from the British rejects of 300 fucking years ago. Matty, back to you. I have no patience. I have no patience for Boston. Matty. You're trying to open a nuclear plant in Worcester.

Thank you. Thank you. Convince these vulgar, rude cretins why nuclear energy is the right path forward. Like Dan, I believe that we need to sacrifice for future generations. Climate change, existential threat to our way of life. We need to get on with it. We need to stop climate change.

Nuclear is the fastest way to stop climate change. Don't worry about what happens in Russia. That's Russia's problem. You don't care about what's Russia's problem. You care about what's Worcester's problem Worcester wants to save its children

I don't know how the fuck to say it Worcester Worcester Worcester wants its Worcester Worcester wants nuclear

and to quote the next president to quote the next Worcester wants nuclear! Yeah, you got it. Worcester wants nuclear. And to quote the next president... That's never been said. To quote the next president of the United States, nuclear is very strong. Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, powerful words. Well done, man.

Much like we don't care what happens in Russia, Boston doesn't care what happens in Worcester, because it is past 495. You got the... Oh, yeah. Fine. You say that now, but then a bunch of radioactive suburbanites

are wandering down the fucking boulevard. All right. John. Mm-hmm. You are Buckner's agent after the Mets beat the Red Sox in the World Series. Oh, boy.

Okay, look. Everyone has a bad night. Everyone has a bad performance. Had he been injured all season? Sure. Had he been struggling with that injury? Did he walk like he used to walk? No, he didn't walk like he...

He hasn't walked like he used to walk anymore. Did he run like he used to? No, couldn't run like he used to run anymore. But you know what? Did he cost the Red Sox game six and then the World Series? Sure. As a five-year-old, was it the first time I saw my dad punch a wall?

Yes. Yes. But you know what? No one ever talks about the run he scored in game seven. Yeah. No one ever talks about the pitching. Maybe it was the pitching. Maybe they shouldn't have put Buckner in when he was injured. No one ever talks about that.

That's true. It's not, we shouldn't be focusing on Buckner's one night of bad performance. We should be focusing on our common enemy, Mookie Wilson. But John, but John, wait a second, John, but wait a second. That's all well and good if there are other factors, but if one bad night is the difference between winning the World Series and losing the World Series, is it worth thinking about whether or not it was right to put someone like Buckner in that position, especially after we saw what had happened. You know, it's a good point, but here we are. So what else are we going to do? Wow. Powerful words.

Bill Buckner. And that's our game, and that's our show for tonight. Thanks to Mettie for being with us. Thanks to Governor Healy, and thank you to Harvard Bookstore for selling Democracy or Else Thanks to Governor Healy. And thank you to Harvard Bookstore for selling Democracy or Else. Go get a copy. And thank you, Boston. Hang in there.

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