Pod Save America - “Kamala!”

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

Joe Biden selects Kamala Harris to be his Vice President, and Hysteria’s Alyssa Mastromonaco joins Jon and Dan to break down the choice, the rollout, and the reaction of Donald Trump. Then Black Voters Matter Fund co-founder LaTosha Brown talks to Jon about the historic nature of Kamala Harris’s selection, and how the Democratic ticket can organize and energize voters this fall.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco. Woo! She's back! Here's the question. Let's just get this out of the way before we get into the housekeeping. Is this an episode of Pod Save America on which Alyssa is a guest host, or is this an episode of That's the Ticket? I'm just a guest on That's the Ticket right now.

Okay, good. I wanted to establish that early on, just for the power dynamics. My favorite Pod Save America miniseries since Tommy's Iowa series. Smart, smart, smart. So there's been two of them. On today's pod, I talked to our friend Latasha Brown of Black Voters Matter about the history Kamala Harris has made as the Democratic Party's vice presidential nominee. Before that, Alyssa, Dan and I will talk about Joe Biden's decision to put Kamala on the ticket, the rollout over the last few days, and how Trump has responded. But first, we've got a few quick housekeeping notes. Check out this week's Pod Save the World, where Tommy and Ben talk about Kamala's foreign policy views, foreign election interference,

and the massive explosion in Lebanon with Washington Post Beirut Bureau Chief Liz Sly. Also, if you haven't checked out Ben Rhodes' new pod, Missing America, highly suggest you take a listen. It's rocketing up the iTunes charts. I think it was number five in news and politics yesterday. The first episode is out now, and it was all about Trumpism. So listen and subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,

and wherever you listen to pods. It's fantastic. Take a listen. Finally, the Democratic National Convention is next week. And we at Crooked Media have some big plans. We're not going to Milwaukee. That's not one of the plans. We will be streaming the convention live every night on crooked.com slash convention. We're going to bring back our group threads like we used to have during the debates to

cover the speeches at the convention. We'll have three episodes of Pod Save America next week, Monday, Thursday, and a bonus on Friday. And the big one, we'll be doing a live one hour Pod Save America pre-show to kick off the final night of the convention on Thursday, starting at 5 p.m., 8 p.m. Eastern. Tune in at cricket.com slash convention.

It's going to be fun. That was a good reminder that I should A, check my schedule and B, read my emails because I got a lot of news in that. Okay, yeah. That's great. We're going to need you next week.

Also, do I get honorary inclusion in the group thread this time? Fuck yes, you do. Thank you very much much i've learned how to use things okay i got tutored on slack i like we my view on the group thread is more the merrier because you know it's just boring listening to us four fuckers just go on about these i completely agree right i'm just kidding no no i just want to be included i'm so lonely up up here. I'm so excited. Great. No, you're on. You're in. All right. Let's get to the news. I got my two. That's the ticket co-host with me to talk about Joe Biden's selection of California Senator Kamala Harris, the first woman of color, black woman and Asian-American woman to run on a major party ticket. black woman and Asian American woman to run on a major party ticket. She's also the first graduate of a historically black college and university and the first Democrat from California to run on a major party ticket. Biden announced the pick via text on Tuesday, and the two running

mates held a joint event in Wilmington, Delaware on Wednesday. Let's listen to a clip from their remarks. As a child of immigrants, she knows personally how immigrant families enrich our country, as well as the challenges of what it means to grow up black and Indian American in the United States of America. Her story is America's story, different from mine in many particulars, but also not so different in the essentials. She's worked hard. She's never backed down from a challenge. And she has earned each and every of the accolades and achievements that she has gained, many of them often in the face of obstacles that others put in her way, but never quit.

And this morning, all across the nation, little girls woke up, especially little black and brown girls, who so often feel overlooked and undervalued in their communities. But today, today, just maybe, they're seeing themselves for the first time in a new way, as the stuff of president and vice presidents.

And, you know, my mother and father, they came from opposite sides of the world to arrive in America, one from India and the other from Jamaica, in search of a world-class education. But what brought them together was the civil rights movement of the 1960s. And that's how they met as students in the streets of

Oakland, marching and shouting for this thing called justice in a struggle that continues today. And I was part of it. My parents would bring me to protests strapped tightly in my stroller. And my mother, Shamala, raised my sister Maya and me to believe that it was up to us and every generation of Americans to keep on marching. She'd tell us, don't sit around and complain about things, do something. So I did something. I devoted my life to making real the words carved in the United States Supreme Court, equal justice under law.

And 30 years ago, I stood before a judge for the first time, breathed deep, and uttered the phrase that would truly guide my career and the rest of my career. Kamala Harris for the people. Alyssa, tell us exactly when and how you found out about the pic and what was your immediate reaction? I found out about the pic on CNN. And I mean, think that to to put it in the words of elizabeth warren let's fucking go like it was great it's exciting um you know it's great it's wonderful it's a woman dan it's a woman dan what did you think what was your initial reaction i found it i found out about

it in the uh kooky media slack, which is where I discovered it. There you go. That's where you find all your breaking news. Yes. Look, I agree with Alyssa. I think when something is expected, it's easy to, in the run-up to it, not fully recognize how exciting it can be. to it, not fully recognize how exciting it can be. If you had asked anyone a year ago and you were to say, Joe Biden is going to be the Democratic nominee, who is his vice president going to be? I would say most people in politics probably would have guessed Kamala Harris. But the theoretical is very different than the actual. And it was incredibly exciting when the news came out. The excitement of people all across the country in the party was palpable. Just even talking to people in my life who were not engaged in politics full time like us, they were very, very excited about it.

I am as pumped up about this election as I have been in many, many months. I was surprised by how much it meant to me. I think you guys will probably agree one of the downsides of being political junkies like us is that sometimes you're so caught up in the daily bullshit that you can miss the larger significance of certain moments. And I was thinking back to that night that Barack Obama made history as the first black candidate to win the Iowa caucuses and how one of the people celebrating in the office when they called the race was then San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris, who had been out knocking on doors for him. doors for him. A decade later, Donald Trump wins in part because of a racial backlash to the election of Barack Obama. And now to beat him, Joe Biden, the older white guy Obama selected as his running mate, turns around and chooses Kamala, whose parents, like Obama's, came from opposite sides of the world to be the first black woman to run on a major party ticket. And it it sort of reminded me of what our old boss said, I think, shortly after Trump won, which is that history doesn't always move in a straight line, but it moves.

And I don't know. It was a it's a big deal. It's a big deal. And I thought the video was charming of Joe Biden calling Kamala. Oh, my God. You know, sometimes that's not done well. It can seem very inauthentic and hokey. I loved it. She's like, I'm sorry to keep you waiting. She looked like a normal person.

I'm wearing my Kamala shirt because I think this is what she was wearing in her video. I thought it was great. And you know what else? Really? This is so nerd. This is music nerd this is music nerd of me but i was like fucking bob marley is up in heaven smiling right now a person of jamaican descent is the vice president of the united states so anyway that's awesome

not everyone thinks of bob marley You do. Dan, why do you think in the end that Joe Biden chose her? I think he believed he came to. I've always believed that Joe Biden was looking for his Joe Biden in this process. And by that, I mean someone that he could have a real relationship of trust with, because I really believe that you can make political cases for all of the people who are on that shortlist. And certainly the political case for Kamala Harris is incredibly strong. She's a very, very talented campaigner, which I think we'll talk about. But he came to the conclusion, and I think very much influenced by Beau's relationship with Senator Harris, he believed that they could have the same relationship of trust that he had with Barack Obama. And that was going to be key to a governing partnership. Alyssa, the New York Times wrote that Kamala was, quote, seen throughout the vice presidential search as among the safest choices available to Mr. Biden.

I thought that was a sentiment that was echoed throughout a lot of the coverage in punditry. What did you think about that? Was she the safe choice? Fucking ask any black woman in America if they agree with that statement. Like, first of all, picking a woman, this was something that we talked about a lot on That's the Ticket. At no point has putting a woman on the ticket, like that ticket's not won, okay? So there is no way that any of this is like a safe choice. Now it was never the vice presidential female's fault because except this time, last two times women were added when the candidate was way, way behind. So no, this was not a safe choice. That's just, it's fucking crazy to say that. This was like, this was an

inspired choice. It was a good choice. And it was not, I can't imagine that any woman who heard the news the other day was like, fucking low hanging fruit. Like, that's just not what happened. I mean, reading those stories in preparation for this podcast from all the various papers that, you know, that was all couch, right? It was like, safe, but exciting choice. Biden goes the safe route. And like, what has happened in American politics, not just in our, the last four has been our history that suggests that the safe thing to do is to put a woman of color on the ticket. And it really feels like the punditry confused, expected and safe. That's what I was going to ask. Do you think she was the obvious choice? Yes. I mean, she, you know, at any point in time, if you had asked anyone to place their life on the line to pick who Joe Biden would pick, you would pick Kamala Harris because she passes every single test.

She has all of the readiness and experience you need to do the job. Tremendously talented campaigner. You know that there is a foundation of a relationship between her and Joe Biden because of her relationship with Beau. And so the whole way the coverage played out speaks to how the press overvalues surprise, right? It's exciting if they haven't thought about it. But what they forget is they live in the same Twitter echo chamber bubble that we do, where many people were quite surprised by this choice because they recognized in the long history of America, there has never been a black woman on a major party ticket. So it is exciting and it is unexpected because it goes against the history of this country. Yeah, I don't think it was a safe choice. I felt personally for maybe the last three, four weeks that it was either going to be Kamala Harris or Susan Rice.

I mean, I guess I thought since the protests following George Floyd's murder, I began to strongly believe that the Biden campaign would select a woman of color for the ticket, because I do think we're in a moment of racial reckoning. And I think that the Biden campaign and Joe Biden himself has proved himself to be someone who is willing to listen and grow and, you know, make sure that the campaign he's running is reflective of the party that he now leads and the country that he wants to lead. Even if he himself and his own identity is not quite reflective of that party. He has been very open to that. And so I thought for I thought since the protest that he would ultimately select a woman of color. And I think because we are in a moment where the next president

will inherit, you know, a worse recession than Obama did, the greatest public health crisis in a century. And the fact that Joe Biden is 78 years old, he was going to select someone who had extensive governing and political and legislative experience. And Kamala Harris has all of those things. And I think Susan also has tremendous governing experience as well. I think in the end, another part of the calculation was, has this person been vetted and tested on the national scene in the midst of a brutal political campaign? And Kamala had because of the primary. And probably that in the end is what weighed against susan in in my view yeah i i just have to say because we all know on that's the ticket i predicted he'd pick susan

and pfeiffer predicted kamala so i want to say yay pfeiffer um but same thing i i kind of thought that because it did seem for so long, like Kamala was the obvious choice that because, and I say this, let me finish my sentence before you disagree with me. It feels like it took such a long time. And I know it's because we're not doing campaign events. There's nothing else to look at. This timing is very historical for when he announced her, but because there was nothing else to think about, and you have to wonder, like, how much else was there going on? It seemed like this was their singular focus. So because they weren't announcing right away, I thought maybe there was – I thought maybe Susan had, like, you know, eclipsed Kamala.

But I was wrong. So I just want to say that. I was wrong. I'm going to agree with you because it was longer, right? It actually like historically, as we talked about, that's the ticket. The VP announcement generally comes about seven to 10 days before the convention. And in recent years, in almost every occasion, except Paul Ryan in 2012, it's come about essentially this exact timing, which is right before the weekend before the convention.

But what was different this time is the convention was later and Joe Biden got the nomination much earlier. So in addition to the absolute monotonous life that we have stuck in our homes, the actual period of time was much longer. And so it felt more painful and, you know, and led to, you know, some dynamics that a lot of people very rightfully called out as being pretty toxic about how a lot of these women and women of color were being pitted against each other in media and by, you know, sort of political people on all sides. Yeah, there, I will say there were moments over the last couple weeks where I thought it definitely could be Susan. Partly because Joe Biden so values personal relationships and he is close to Susan and is not as close to Kamala, though certainly close to her as well.

But, you know, our old boss says this all the time and has had this sort of, at least in reports through the process, that when he was selecting a running mate or when you select a running mate, it is very important to select someone who has been through the ringer of a political campaign. And look, I've seen some people be like, well, Kamala didn't do as well in the primary or this or that. She went through some incredibly tough campaigns in California where being in a Democratic primary

in California is very rough. And you have to be a very fucking good campaigner to get through Democratic primaries in the state of California. And Kamala Harris succeeded at doing that multiple times. And then she went through a presidential campaign and came out of that campaign, even though she didn't make it, incredibly well-liked by most of the Democratic Party and most of the country. And that's like, that's no small feat.

So what specifically does Kamala Harris bring to the ticket? Alyssa? I think she's very comfortable on social media. No, this is the thing. This is the thing, because how are people communicating right now? So one, it's obviously not the biggest thing, but I've just noticed it in the past couple of days. Like she's great. She can communicate in ways that you guys would advocate in the White House for how do you communicate to all the people who aren't on Twitter and who don't want to watch cable news. I think that she is a great person that they will be able to engage. Also, one of the greatest things to do is go back in time and watch her grill Bill Barr and especially Brett Kavanaugh and know that so many Republicans will face that fate now.

Like the the idea of Kamala sort of prosecuting the case, I think, against the Trump administration, like she said in her announcement speech. I just think that she is she is a wonderful speaker. She's a great speaker. She's a great debater. I mean, she's one of the people in the primaries. If you sort of, if I had to break down who came to the debate, all 500 of them with a plan and like executed on that plan, it would probably be she and Amy Klobuchar. Those were the two people who I thought always came not to play. So I just think that she's, and she's, for the first, I think that we talk so much about how people don't vote for a VP. And I do think that in this case, people are going to be very, very motivated to vote early, vote by mail, vote period because of her. Alyssa, can I ask you a question?

Yeah. In Biden's announcement of her, he talked about how tough she was, what a fighter she was. And I recognize that the fight language is how she described herself. It was a big argument of herself in the primary. What was your reaction to that? We still live in this world where in order to succeed as a woman in politics, you have to pass this toughness threshold that, I don't know whether it exists with voters or not, but it was just the language struck me. So here's interesting. So his speech coupled with Kamala's speech was the perfect circle, right? It encapsulated everything. He talked about how tough she was. She talked about her bio and how she's Mamala and all that stuff.

So I think that if you wanted to paint a complete picture of Kamala, it happened at the event. His speech on its own, if he had said it without her giving her remarks after it, I think it might've been a little like, really? You know, like we got to be so fucking tough all the time. And I think that this was a better representation of her as a whole person, the two speeches put together. That's interesting. Yeah. My test on this is always like, could you imagine it being said about a male politician?

I think fighter is said about male politicians. Tough is not. It's just like you don't hear people calling male politicians tough. You just don't hear that because you assume they're tough because because because there's an assumption built in. Dan, what else do you think that that she brings to the ticket? I think it's what is a very and very important one, which is she is a very good campaigner in the age of the internet. She is a real palpable authenticity about her that was like a great asset of hers in the primary. She was always great on like late night talk shows or other formats, like when she was on

The Breakfast Club and things like that. I think she was always, she's just very good. And there's like a balance between her and Biden. And I think the best tickets are ones where when they're together, it sort of creates a, it improves both of them, right? And I think that happened with Obama and Biden. And you could see that with Kamala Harris and Biden yesterday, even though they, they were by together, I mean, six feet apart wearing masks, which is such as our life. But there, you know, the, the moment that I just like, I think sort of sent chills down my spine and what I thought embodied a lot of what makes Kamala Harris such a endearing and compelling politician in person was, you know, here it is, the biggest moment of her life.

She is a, you know, she's making history. And when Joe Biden says, let me introduce the next vice president of the United States, you can see her literally react with joy to it. Like she sort of like shrugged her shoulders in excitement and it was just very authentic. And like that is a huge part of what I think she will bring to this ticket. And it's so much more important in a situation where you are campaigning on the internet over Zoom or whatever it is, instead of being actually in person, where Joe Biden is a phenomenal campaigner in person. Less so in sort of the digital space, but I think Kamala can fill some of those gaps. You know what else just is also, in terms of her authenticity, is just really interesting?

I think that for however many years we've been talking about this, that the media has decided what women want to see, you know, that like a woman should be tough, but she should also make a pie and like she should have coiffed hair and like good suit. And the thing about Kamala is that like one of the greatest things that you can, one of the greatest stories is that she called Cory Booker on his birthday, Senator Cory Booker on his birthday, but she decided that he needed to learn how to make lentils. He told her that he was making lentils. So she made him go to FaceTime and she had rollers in her hair and she's just

like explaining him how to fucking get it done. That's like what women relate to, you know, it's, it's, and I feel like she represents that in a way that it took us this long to get comfortable with. I mean, one of the all-time great internet moments is her teaching Mark Warner. So good. So good. No, I mean, I, I totally agree with all that. I think three things,

you know, her brilliance, which is evidence every time she's been on the Judiciary Committee, besting all of her colleagues in questioning whatever witness is up. I think her charisma. I think she's, you know, the best speaker on a Democratic Party major ticket since Barack Obama. Barack Obama. Anyone else I can remember? And she and the charisma is both something we see in public. And for those of us who have met her privately, it's the same. Like, you know, all the candidates came to the office. And I think like hanging out with Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris were like two of the great joys that I had with all of those candidates. They're just they're just really fun and warm and just great people to hang out with and funny too. Kamala's very funny. We saw that in person when she, remember she was the guest at the second ever Positive America

live show in San Francisco. It was only like four or five months after she got to the Senate. And I mean, she brought the house down. I mean, it was a house full of very inebriated San Franciscans, but she brought it down. And one other thing about what Kamala brings to the ticket that I should have brought up earlier is Kamala is a gamer. When the game is on the line, she delivers. In every one of those debates and like the expectations for her going in to the Kavanaugh hearing, and she just came and brought it in the debates when her campaign was on the line. She had her best performances. And so when the pressure is greatest, she has delivered in really big ways. And that's something you absolutely need in the candidate part of a

vice presidential candidacy, like the debate, the convention speech. She's got these huge moments. And if she can continue that pattern of delivering, that's huge. I also think the last point on this is, you know, Joe Biden has talked about his candidacy as sort of a bridge to the future of the party. And she represents the future of the Democratic Party and sort of the future of where the demographics are shifting in the country itself. Ron Brownstein always talks about, and we talked about this in the wilderness a lot, the coalition of restoration as sort of the Republican coalition and the Democratic Party

represents the coalition of transformation. You know, 30% of our voters in the Democratic Party are non-college educated white voters, right? 30% are college educated white voters and 40% are voters of color. And, you know, we, despite the fact that we have Joe Biden on the top of the ticket, we now have a 55 year old black woman, immigrant story, comes from San Francisco, comes from California, who is representing the future of the party. And I do think that is incredibly important as we head into this election. And as you know, if Democrats are going to win, it's going to be because they rack up these margins in increasingly diverse suburbs circling these major cities. So let's talk about the reaction to Kamala's selection,

which was overwhelmingly positive. Just about every elected Democrat from all wings of the party praised the pick, as well as activists and organizers who'd criticized Harris in the past. Of course, there has been some criticism from progressives that Kamala is too moderate or cautious, particularly her record on criminal justice from when she was San Francisco's DA and California Attorney General. Alyssa, what do you make of that criticism? Ah, what I think is, as our colleague Dennis McDonough used to say, new broom sweeps clean. Let's get on with it, progressives. Let's, like, you guys know, I got a Bernie bumper sticker on my car. I got an EW sticker on my car. And I'm waiting for my Biden-Harris sticker for my car.

But come the fuck on. Like, Jesus Christ. The president of the United States is dismantling the United States Postal Service. And we all know, too, that we have to get them elected. We were in the White House when people who supported Barack Obama protested outside because they were holding his feet to the fire on promises he made and changes that they wanted to see. So, like, let's just get elected and then, like, let's go ahead and protest or do whatever you want to do. But, like, let's just keep our eye on the ball here.

Dan? You know, I agree with everything Alyssa said there. I think it's hard when you are disappointed about something. It is hard to be told, don't be disappointed about it, or you're wrong to be unhappy about it. And so I don't really know what the right thing to say is to some of those people other than to encourage them to look at the movement that Biden has made on a whole host of issues. He's really the first candidate that I can ever think of who wins a primary and moves left as opposed to, you know, the standard way

to think about it is you move, you go left in the primary and to the center in the general. And Biden has, you know, he's made real, real fundamental substantive shifts on issues like climate and student debt and taxes and other issues. And that should be seen, I think, as a sign that even if this is not the vice presidential pick you would have chosen, that the progressive wing, the progressive activists are going to have an opportunity to have a real influence on the agenda in a Biden-Harris administration. Yeah. I mean, look, I interviewed Kamala when she came to Crooked, and I pushed her on a lot of her past policies and record when she was DA and AG. I talked to her about her truancy policies. And she said, if I was to do it over again, I wouldn't have to understand that public officials, elected officials are products of the time that they're from, that they're in. As a DA in 2004, she refused to seek the death penalty for a man who killed a police officer. She was attacked by police officers and police officer associations.

She was attacked for it by Dianne Feinstein. She almost lost her race for attorney general because of that. And that's sort of in your mind when you're trying to run for office back then. I think we should, I mean, it was hilarious to me that she is being called

in all this coverage, a moderate, like Joe Biden has found a fellow moderate or centrist. She supports something extremely close to Medicare for all, which Bernie Sanders acknowledged in his statement supporting her. She's for the Green New Deal. She has one of the most centrist she supports something extremely close to medicare for all which bernie sanders acknowledged in his statement supporting her she's for the green new deal she has one of the most liberal records in the u.s senate like if if you want to call a kamala harris's record um in the senate

and her policies that she's supporting now centrist or moderate great if that's where the overton window has moved then congratulations to all the progressive activists, because you have fucking moved the shit out of that window that is supporting the Green New Deal. And basically, Medicare for All is now moderate and centrist. Fantastic. I'll take it. I also would encourage people to read and look at what some of the activists on criminal justice matters have said about this. and they've talked about how, you know, while they have very real concerns about her record when she was attorney general or in the city of San Francisco, that she has made movement on some or maybe even a lot of those issues in recent years. And so, like, you know, I think those are the, for people who, if your concern is what her record was in the past, there are some people who are real subject

matter experts in that stuff who are talking about how it intersects with her policy positions now. And I just would encourage people to look at what a lot of those activists have had to say on Twitter and elsewhere. Well, and I would say to everyone, too, like and don't take her word for it and Joe Biden's word for it now. If you're still disappointed, like hold their feet to the fire. If they're elected and they start backtracking and they and, you know, they do something you don't like on criminal justice reform or they don't go far enough, then then fight it. Fight it hard. But that's you know, that's I think that's the best way forward.

So I do want to talk briefly about the other candidates who made the shortlist and went through the very intense vetting process. made the shortlist and went through the very intense vetting process. We talked about Susan Rice, Congresswoman Karen Bass, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Senator Elizabeth Warren, Senator Tammy Duckworth. Alyssa, what, if anything, do you think this process has done for these women? You know, I think everybody, all of the women minus Elizabeth Warren, whose profile I think was quite high before this process. I think that the process was done respectfully, and these women have bigger platforms now that they can use going forward for their states, for their districts, and to run for even higher office.

So I think it's all good. Dan? Can I say something about our friend Susan Rice for a second? Sure. Now, as everyone knows, we have been friends and colleagues of Susan's for a very long time. And as someone who's known to work with her, the idea for the vice president was quite exciting to us because she would do a fucking great job at it. She is about as qualified to do that job as anyone in the world. qualified to do that job as anyone in the world. But it was painful as someone who likes and cares about her to watch this process play itself out. And nothing pissed me off more

than the never Trumpers who were trying to shore up their conservative credentials by saying, look, I'll vote for Joe Biden if he picks Susan Rice, because here's what I have to say. Your argument against Susan Rice is based on a right wing fucking conspiracy theory about Benghazi. And if you think that many of them acknowledge that many of them acknowledge is a conspiracy theory and then go on to say, I know it's bullshit, but it's out there. So I'm just going to say it's bad for her anyway. If you are so proudly this evolved Republican who is against Trump, but you don't have the fucking guts to stand up to Benghazi trutherism, then your party is doomed to repeat itself. Then you have missed every fucking lesson about it. It is just absolute disgusting way in order to ensure that even if you're against Trump, you can still get invited to the weekly standard Christmas party.

Bingo. Here's my dream. Here's my dream. I let myself think just for a moment that perhaps Joe Biden would announce Kamala Harris as vice president and then out would walk Susan Rice and he would say, this is going to be my secretary of state. And then out would walk Elizabeth Warren and he would say, and this is going to be my secretary of treasury. That was just. I feel great about all those. Maybe it still will.

I'm very opposed to the cabinet before the election idea. No, I know. I guess there might be. Eye on the ball. Eye on the ball. Before Twitter tells me there are. I know. I know there are legal issues, perhaps.

But I still think he would be he would be wise to select Susan as. Look, I also just want to scoop Pod Save the World on this. You know, they're going to start Susan for secretary of state. Wouldn't it be great that we got to it first? I mean, I'm having shirts made on Etsy. Is that weird? Susan for state. Susan for sex state.

Let's do it. Or. Ann Warren at treasury wielding tremendous power at the treasury department just making Wall Street fucking lose their shit how great would that be

never Trump her heads exploding left and right I was for Biden until he decided to put someone in place to fix the economy my party broke

make a supportive ad about that one Lincoln Project Warren at treasury let's see you want in do that my party broke. Make a supportive ad about that one, Lincoln Project. Warranted treasury. Let's see. You want in? Do that.

That's our price of admission. Alyssa, I want to talk to you about the rollout because you are the expert on all things rollouts. You've been involved in many of these. So on the announcement side, the campaign was able to break its own news via text to its supporters on Tuesday. On Wednesday morning, you spoke about this. Harris's team posted a video of Biden asking Harris to be his running mate over Zoom. I assume it was Zoom. And then on Wednesday, there was the joint event in Wilmington with two

speeches, plenty of masks, no crowd. What did you think of how this all went down? What'd you think of the rollout? So I just, I need to say, I never got my text message, even though I signed up, which I was sad about. I didn't either. I was like, wait, I wasn't supposed to find out on CNN. So here's what I'd like to say. You guys remember when we got to the White House and a lot of old school political people who had been the last Democrats in office would criticize us often on TV for saying that we weren't being creative enough, that we weren't taking Barack Obama to the Grand Canyon to sign legislation and all this stuff. And the problem was, is that they had not lived in a post 9-11 world and 9-11 changed everything. So I feel like for people who were talking about yesterday, you have to remember that

none of us understand what it is to go through this right now. So while I would have loved to see something super picturesque, just like a real Time magazine cover. I thought they did a very good job. You know, they both, they gave their speeches. Presumably, nobody got sick. I mean, you know, it's like when you look at what the options are, I mean, Trump did his rallies and people have died. So I think that in the era of COVID, they did a really, a really good job. And the perfect was in the era of COVID, they did a really good job. And the perfect was not the enemy of the good. And we got what we needed, which was to see them together.

Alyssa, what did you think of the lack of any crowd whatsoever, the lack of any applause during the speeches? I thought my view was fine for that event, which was middle of the day. Most of the clips are going to run on the news at night. And so it's not like a lot of people sat through, except us junkies, sat through the whole both speeches. I'm a little concerned about the convention speeches if they are also if we have a week of convention speeches like that. And I think they might be planning something with sound, but I'm not sure. This. So I thought about this yesterday. One, I actually thought Kamala was

exceptional at delivering a very emotive speech without a crowd. I thought that that was like a real plus for her. For Joe Biden, I would say that the shorter is the better when it comes to a world without crowds where you don't get any feedback because he was not as good. And I'm not being mean, but I mean, Kamala was exceptional at it. So I think that going forward, I would probably just Zoom as much as you possibly can because the in-person events, while they demonstrate what can be done in a time of social distancing and wearing masks and everything, and they're modeling really good behavior, it's not that compelling. So I think unless there's something really compelling about doing a live event, that Zoom's probably just fine. Dan, what do you think?

I agree with Alyssa that the rollout wouldn't as well as could possibly be hoped for in this environment. What I think says a lot about their process is, although you guys did not get the text message, I did get it. I got it after I learned the news, but the Biden campaign announced it, right?

Well, that's a pretty amazing thing. Like in 2008, we didn't, we're not the ones to announce Joe Biden. John King from CNN broke it before we were able to even hit send on our texts. And so if you are the ones who make the actual announcement of your vice presidential pick before a reporter figures it out, that's a sign of a very successful and well-run process. Yes, that's very true. I 100% agree on the applause as it relates to the convention. And I'm sure they are already working on this,

but both the NBA and Major League Baseball have figured out some ways to make this seem less weird on television because you can hear applause in empty arenas. And the NBA also has a very cool thing where they're having fans zoom in. So when you're watching it on TV, you can see sort of like a digital wall of people. And so there are some opportunities for that.

It's not perfect, don't get me wrong. I do think in the context of this event, there is something that is worthwhile, even if you're not getting enthusiasm, but the whole thing where they come in with masks, they wear masks, they're the spots where they stand apart. In addition to it being the right thing to do, it is also a reminder of the situation that Donald Trump put us in and how irresponsible he is being about it. And I think when you look at all the polling around coronavirus, I think there is value in showing that we take this seriously and are doing it in the right way. And in that sense, the lack of applause can be a feature, not a bug, because it once again highlights that Donald Trump has so royally screwed this up that you were doing these political events,

which would otherwise be these raucous rallies, in these ways that are very understandable to Americans who are stuck in their home. Yeah, I do agree with Alyssa that I thought, I think Biden has been, he's done a few of these events without applause and he does a pretty good job. And what I think is a very tough circumstance delivering a speech with no crowd delivering it. But I thought that Kamala was excelled at delivering a speech to no applause. And I thought her speech itself was excellent. Just was excellent. Very, very, very one of her one of her best speeches so let's talk about the reaction from donald trump who welcomed kamala harris to the race

with a combination of grace and shrewdness here's a clip she did very very poorly in the uh primaries as you know she was expected to do well and she was she ended up at right around two percent and spent a lot of money she had a lot of things happening and so i was a little surprised that he picked her i've been watching her for a long time and i was a little surprised she was extraordinarily nasty to uh cavanaugh judge cavanaugh then now justice cavanaugh she was nasty to a level that was just a horrible thing the way she was, the way she treated now Justice Kavanaugh. And I won't forget that soon. So she did very poorly in the primaries and now she's chosen. So let's see how that all works out.

So we're used to Trump's freewheeling style. So we're used to Trump's freewheeling style, but we've also seen a completely incoherent reaction from his campaign, the Republican Party, the right wing media. They're selling Kamala is a cop T-shirts and also calling her anti-police. Republican Senator Josh Hawley called her a darling of Wall Street, while the RNC chair said she's a radical socialist. Katrina Pearson of the Trump campaign put out a rambling statement with a bunch of lies. What's wrong with these people? Like, why can't they settle on a line of attack here, Dan? Because they're stupid.

I mean, it's just like, we should just be very clear. They had time. They had so much time to prepare. Yeah, I mean, this is not, like, we were caught off guard when John McCain picked Sarah Palin in 2008

because she was on no one short list. And Kamala Harris has been the leading contender for this position since the day Joe Biden became nominee. How they're unprepared for it is – it's both mind-boggling in one sense. It makes complete sense when you look at how the rest of the campaign runs. And I think part of it is that trolling is not a coherent political strategy. And so you're just constantly looking to get some sort of reaction without any regard for a coherent message. And so, yeah, will people retweet the Kamala is a cop t-shirts? Absolutely. Will that give something for Tucker Carlson to yell about? Yes. Will we also try to do the other thing and pretend like she and Joe Biden are Antifa super soldiers?

Yes, we'll do that. Will we default to just dumb racism because we're dumb racists? Yes, we'll do that. But that's not how political campaigns work. And they have the same problem with Joe Biden that they have with Kamala Harris, which they can't figure out one coherent, specific narrative, which Donald Trump, for all of his idiocy and flaws, actually had in 2016 when he was running against Hillary Clinton. Yeah, he at least landed there. Alyssa, Trump's calling Kamala a nasty,

mad woman. Tucker Carlson is purposely mispronouncing her name. We've got a few white right-wing whack jobs who are floating conspiracy that she's not American. We've got the return of birtherism here in Trump campaign officials, not like some fucking weird Reddit person, whatever her name is, some fake lawyer. That's Jenna, Jenna Ellis. Jenna Ellis. Yeah. She's not America. Alyssa, how should the Biden Harris campaign and the rest of us, for that matter, handle the racism and sexism, some overt like this, some less so, some more subtle that will obviously accompany this pick and already is accompanying this.

First of all, he is no longer Tucker Carlson. He's Tucker Carlson until he learns how to pronounce her name. That's a rule on hysteria. That's not acceptable. Look, this is their game. This is all they have. Like Trump's. I have to say, I was disappointed in Trump. I thought he was going to do better out the gate. Instead, he was some basic bitch, had nothing good to offer, nothing colorful. Like I thought he would have had some good attacks, but like slow Joe and phony Kamala, like do better. And I think that this is their playbook. This is what they know to do.

Since Donald Trump was the OG birther back in the day, this is it. And it's just, you know, I really do think, I know that everybody goes back and forth on like how you're supposed to reach out to voters. I just really think that Democrats shouldn't do the shows of racists on Fox news. Like there are some people who maybe aren't, but I mean, I just, everyone's got to stop.

They have to be put in a box. Cause fuck that. Fuck, fuck Tukor. Fuck Tukor. And see on Hannity. It's Tukor Carlson, see on Hannity and judge pyro.

Let's, uh, so let's talk about let's end by talking about what's next for Kamala. We got 82 days until the election. She's got a convention speech next week. She's got a debate with Mike Pence in October. Dan, how important are those moments to the overall campaign? What can she do to succeed? And what does she have to watch out for? Well, we talk all the time about how Joe Biden is relatively undefined to large segments of the voters who are going to decide the selection.

And that is exponentially more true for Kamala Harris. So the speech on Wednesday night will be her last best opportunity, at least before the debates, to define herself and tell her story to the American people. I imagine that speech is going to get a tremendous number of eyeballs, in part because people cannot leave their homes in most states. So I think it's a huge, huge, huge opportunity for her. You know, the debate is something we should talk about, which is it has become sort of a favorite Twitter messaging strategy of Democrats to raise expectations through the roof for Kamala Harris and the debate. And I think it's much more complex than that. And so

I think we should probably have that conversation at some point. Alyssa, what do you think? No, I think that's true. I mean, my first text was, I couldn't wait to watch the debate. So I'm very much at fault on that one. But it's true. That's fine for you to text someone in private. No, no, I tweeted it. I tweeted it.

Well, then shame on you. I know. It was my initial reaction. I know it's so much more than that. But we can tell by when Mike Pence was asked the question and had to answer and nearly pooed his pants that he, too, is concerned about it. He did nearly poo his pants right on Tuker's show, or I think it was Sian's show when he was asked that question about the debate. So, no, look, I get it. I totally understand it is the natural reaction. is the natural reaction. Kamala Harris, when you when you have seen her on the Judiciary Committee in the Senate grilling witnesses, you think this is a person who's going to kick ass. She's just

she's great. She's a good debater. She's excellent at set pieces. But I do think, you know, there's obviously the silly expectation game that everyone plays in the press where you say that your candidate is terrible at debates and the other candidate is amazing, right? Like that's what you do. But I think Mike Pence, I would not be surprised if Mike Pence walked into that debate and was very gracious to her when the debate started and said something about her history-making candidacy, right? And then sort of tore into her about, you know, the liberal policies of Biden and Harris and all that kind of stuff. Like he is not he has. But the only thing you can say about Mike Pence is he has slightly more discipline than Donald Trump. And he will have handlers and consultants

who tell him, like, you have to be very careful debating Kamala Harris and this is what you will need to do. And he will probably execute on some of that. And so I just think that is something for people to be aware of as we think about that. And I'm sure that Donald Trump is whispering in Mike Pence's ear that unless he fucking gets COVID back under control, he may not make it to the debate. I mean, I think that is right about Pence. And I think people should go back and watch Pence's debate performance against Tim Kaine, where he was declared the winner. You have to go back and watch it because no one remembers that it ever happened, but it did.

And what Pence did was Tim Kaine, I think, was overcoached going into that debate that he had to be an attack dog. And it was not a position that was particularly comfortable for Tim Kaine. And Pence did not take the bait. And that was seen by the figure skating judges that decide these things as a victory. My concern about the debate is not necessarily Pence's performance or Kamala Harris's performance. I have great confidence in Kamala Harris's performance. It is how it will be covered with a black woman doing those things. And we know this from, you know, you were involved with Barack Obama's debate preps. There are certain tactics and moves that are treated one way when done by a white man and different when done by a black man and doubly so by a-

Can't be angry. Can't be angry if you're a black person. Like some of the great moments in debate history like if barack obama had done the i know jack kennedy you're no he was a friend of mine you know jack kennedy would have been treated very differently than if floyd benson did it right if the you know the where's the beef line from ronald rey can be very treated very differently if hillary clinton had done in 2016 or uh kamala harris were to do it right now and so i think we know from within the context of a democratic debate that the way women and candidates of color were covered was very

problematic. So that's going to be quadruply so in a general election debate. And I think she will do incredibly well. I think it is incumbent upon everyone to try to recognize the additional hurdles that the political conversation will put in the place of a black woman in that position and find the, and I don't have the right answers for this necessarily, but find ways to push back on that language and those tropes and those stereotypes. No, I remember feeling very frustrated on on behalf of obama during a debate prep session i think it was when he was preparing to debate romney when he was told to like be more passionate be more you know show that you're that you care that you're into this and get angry you

know and he was reluctant to do that because as a black man he he believed that he couldn't show that kind of anger without a bunch of fucking racists out there sort of and on tucker carlson show um uh saying that you know making stereotypes about this um and and saying that he fits some stereotype so no it's a it's a it's it's something that she has to navigate both as a woman, as a woman and a woman of color, which is which is very tough. But I'm still excited for the debate. Thank you. I want to see it, too. I mean, honestly, it's like just the one thing to look forward to that we know is going to happen between now and Election Day, which I also think is why people gravitate towards it.

It's like people aren't necessarily excited for the speech because they don't understand what's going to happen. We know kind of what could happen at the debate. I say defending myself as maybe the first person who actually tweeted the thing about the debate. Well, I mean, like to be like, yes, even though I said all the things, I'm still looking forward to it. This has been, it's been a dark few years in America. And some of the rare moments of joy have been Kamala Harris destroying Bill Barr, Jeff Sessions, Brett Kavanaugh. Like those have been moments of light in a dark time. And so it is very understandable to be looking forward to it with Mike Pence, who is terrible. Terrible. Boo. All right. Well, that's that. When we come back, I will be joined by organizer and a co-founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund,

friend of the pod, LaTosha Brown. I'm now joined by organizer and a co-founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund, friend of the pod, Latasha Brown. Latasha, thanks for coming back on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. So you've been part of a coalition pushing Joe Biden to select a black woman as his running mate for months. How did you find out that it would be Kamala Harris? And what was your initial reaction when the announcement was made? So I was actually honestly in my bathroom trying on new makeup. I know that's like I really was. I was in my bathroom and I heard and my phone kept blowing up. And then I got this call and it was like, we won.

And I was like, what does that mean? I don't know what that means, right? And then I could hear my TV in my bedroom. I could hear my TV said that he was selected. It was like, he selected Kamala Harris. I was like, what? And so it was interesting. At first I got the call, I hung up and I was like, oh, that's great.

I was real calm about it. And maybe in a matter of minutes, I started crying. Like I did not anticipate on having that kind of reaction. And I started crying and I and I could only think about at that moment, my grandmother. And it's so interesting because while my grandmother was a voter, she wasn't particularly like an activist or. Because while my grandmother was a voter, she wasn't particularly like an activist. But I know this is a woman. And I share her story because both of my grandmothers, one of my grandmothers was born and grew up and grew a family in Mississippi. And Macomb, Mississippi was an extremely racist community, lived outside of Macomb and Summit, Mississippi.

And then my other grandmother grew up in Alabama, was born in Alabama, and both of them were disenfranchised, that their families, that they themselves. And so it dawned on me that I was the first woman in my family. Like here we are in 2020, I am the first woman who was born where I had the right to vote, that it was like I was enfranchised. Right. And and, you know, I think it just stuck with me. It really just kind of it just it just took me a certain kind of way. And so while I was excited about Kamala, I was actually excited that we had we had that our response, that there was a response to what our request was made by Vice President Joe Biden. More importantly, I felt such an overwhelming sense of gratefulness to all the women who had been disenfranchised, who have been marginalized, who have been overlooked.

Yet they still persisted that this moment was their moment, that this moment wasn't the Democratic Party's moment. This moment just wasn't the candidate's moment, but this was our collective moment. And so I think I'm still working through that. I'm feeling every emotion that you can feel I've felt in the course of this past week. I bet. I mean, before we talk about what his selection means for the campaign, I just wanted to ask, and you know, you've talked about what it meant sort of in a historical sense, but you know, what does this mean to you personally as a black woman? You know, just as a black woman, I think it is disheartening that we are always on the front. I am working, John,

with other women, like we are grinding. So we're grinding on and on. Like every year, year in and year out, we grind because we know that democracy is at stake and we know that our families are at stake. We know that America is in this precarious moment. And so, you know, in light of that, to really be able, but year after year, to see black women get stepped over for congressional seats, to see black women who run for office, including myself, I've run for counterparts, right? To see us grossly underrepresented when it comes to positions of power. But then when it comes to doing the work, you know who the majority of people I see doing the work? I see women. And so I think what this means for me, and I think what it means for me as an activist, as an organizer, as a woman who has dedicated a significant amount of my life doing work on terms of building democracy, anytime that I see that there is a new break, a ceiling break, it opens up the just unlimited

possibilities for those behind us. And so for me, I think that it was a great move by Vice President Joe Biden. You know, I really want to commend him and I want to lift him up on making that choice because I think it sends a certain kind of message. I think it sends a message around being a transformative leader, that ultimately we have to have the courage to really recognize what people are saying and really be able to respond to that. And so I think that he heard us. I think he responded to us. You know, I think he made the right choice. And I just want to lift that up because oftentimes our leaders don't listen to us, right. And don't really take into account what we're asking. The second thing though, is I think that he made a good power move that nobody's going to work on the ground for him.

Like black women, we are going, we are grinding. We, the moment he, the moment that he announced it, I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna get a thousand tomorrow. You know, like that. Ultimately, you know, he I think ultimately that decision, you know, really kind of inspired those of us that are doing this work on the ground. That literally lets us know that there is something different that is happening, that there are new possibilities and new ground. I think that's the second thing. And the third thing is, I think America needs this right now. We need a ticket that is more representative, more reflective of the totality of America,

that we have not seen ourselves, not in the office of president or vice president. They've all been white men with the exception of Barack Obama, right? Who is still, you know, a man. And when you look at the majority, being that the majority of the country are 53% women, women have not been in any of those positions, although we're the majority. So over at FiveThirtyEight, the journalist Perry Bacon looked at the data and wrote that,

while it's not crazy, the idea that, you know, Harris might boost the ticket with black voters. He thinks the stronger case is that she won't have much of an effect on black turnout. What do you think about that? I disagree with that. I disagree with that because I and I and I also think that that inherent in that, too, we have to unpack that because I think sometimes there's a racist context around thinking that black people can only pull black voters. You know, at the end of the day, I think what Obama showed is that he was able to pull a broad based, multiracial, multigenerational coalition that supported him. If we look at the Black Lives Matter for folks who had all this criticism about Black Lives Matter saying, oh, that was divisive. Black Lives Matter saying, oh, that was divisive. The truth of the matter is that movement gave birth to uprisings in all 50 states in this country.

The most diverse, multiracial, multigenerational, multicultural movement that we've ever seen in this country. That because they are leading from a place of truth, from their authentic voices, that we recognize that when you break open oppression for some of us, it opens it for all of us. So I actually think that not only she's going to energize and bring some black voters to the ticket, but I also think that she is going to energize women. I also think that she's going to energize immigrants, that her mother was an immigrant and her parents were immigrants. I also think that she is going to energize the Asian community that is often also looked over as well. And I think that she's going to energize smart people that literally want something different and know that democracy is at stake. So I don't

relegate her that the only voters that she can pull are Black voters. I certainly believe that there would be a particular kind of level of excitement that I myself personally feel and others that I'm talking to. But I also think that oftentimes women and Black candidates are able to build these multicultural coalitions that can make the difference in an election cycle. What do you think, if you were to advise them, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris need to do going forward to further energize voters to turn out this fall? You know, I think a couple of things. First thing is I think that we need to center

the conversation of the election, not necessarily around the candidates. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but I do think that part of what has happened is that we have created almost like this, you know, in some ways, I think like the savior syndrome that we're going to find the absolute perfect candidate, you know, and the perfect candidate is going to save us and take us on to glory when that doesn't exist. Right. Let's just be honest. It doesn't exist. And I think part of that has actually led to the erosion of democracy where people don't see themselves empowered in the process because it's all centered around the candidate. I think what we have to do is actually center this

around people's power, that ultimately this is about us protecting democracy, that ultimately that this is actually bigger than just the candidates. This is even bigger than Trump, that ultimately this is really about saving the soul of America and that all of us have a responsibility in that. And so I think that the message should not just be around taking Trump down. I think the message has to be around one centering that we are recentering and

repositioning people in this country so that the value of this country is actually her people. The second thing is, I think we've got to center on a message of the possibilities. You can't stop at, we got to beat Trump, right? Because it's not like we were in utopia before Trump was in office, right? I think that what excites people, and I think that what folks are looking for, particularly young people that I'm talking to, they're looking for something very different, right? And so I often say, what is your radical reimagining of America? That we actually have to push that there is a vision to go beyond where we've been to address with some of the damage that has happened, but to actually take things forward. I think the other two points that I would make is, one, we cannot continue to step over race. And it is not enough that there's a Black woman that is

on the ticket. I think certainly I think representation matters, but we've got to lean in and deal with structural racism in this country and every aspect of it. And so I think that the campaign should not shy away from that, right? Even though we know Trump is doing the white racist nationalist rally cry, right? I think it is more of us. And I mean, when I mean us, I mean, there are more people of goodwill who want to see America that we all imagine that is inclusive, that is just, and is democratic. And so I think they need to lean into that and speak to the challenges and to speak to the need for us to deal with uproot structural racism. And then the fourth thing that I think is really important is that we have got to really be able to not just step over what

is happening with COVID-19. And we've got to deal with issues of poverty and working class folks. That oftentimes when these conversations get on the national level, what you hear is you hear a lot of conversation about protecting and saving the middle class. And while I support that and find myself as one person among that group, that ultimately we have to recognize that all of us make America, right? All of us deserve to really be able to get the opportunities that the purpose of most of us that are now attach ourselves, whether Black or white or Asian, in the middle class, that many of our families were not in the middle class, but there were programs from the New Deal on that actually focused on how to lift

poor people that created the middle class. And somehow we've forgotten that. And so I think we still need that kind of level of conversation, too, that this conversation just doesn't get stuck in the middle class and the upper class, but that we actually have a message specifically for the working poor and poor people who have not benefited from the wealth of this country. So you spend most of your time on the ground talking to voters, as you know, because you've graciously participated in our Vote Save America trainings. We have thousands of organizers who will be talking to voters over the next few months. Which, John, I just want to tell you,

it's amazing. I hate to cut you off. You were amazing. Y'all got 17,000 people on here organizing. I'm like, this is like organizers goldmine. This is like, I'm not gonna organize a heaven. But anyway. Well, you were the biggest hit of all the trainings. People were going crazy. So you really pumped everyone up. What's your advice to organizers when they encounter voters, particularly maybe young voters or voters who haven't been involved in the process a lot or maybe haven't voted in a few elections who say, I don't know that Joe Biden is progressive enough or I have a problem with Kamala Harris's record as a prosecutor and they're just not sure. What's your message to those voters?

To listen. And I'm serious. To listen. That oftentimes what I have found is that we're so busy trying to evangelize people that we're not hearing them. That oftentimes when people come up to us, we tell folks that we don't meet people that's apathetic. I've never met a person that just didn't care about anything. Right. I didn't. I've met people who are frustrated with the process, don't see themselves in the process, don't feel recognized, valued or listened to. And so part of what we do when people say that, when we run across a voter, a person, they say, well, I don't want to vote because I don't think that it matters. And we actually acknowledge them. Well, why do you feel that way? Right. And they start to tell us and we ask, well, what do you care about? We don't start talking about voting or, well, you need to vote because X, Y, Z.

What do you care about? And then once you engage in that conversation and they start sharing what they care about, then you can start helping them to make the connection of how voting could possibly be one of the tools to actually impact that what they care about. And so it becomes a conversation that's really being informed that it centers them what they desire, what they need. And it comes from and they know that you are listening to them. And so even in the process when they say, well, I vote and I haven't seen any change. I don't argue. I was like, you know what? I feel that way, too. There's oftentimes I feel that way. You're right. You're not crazy. Like I affirm you that, yes, I not only have I felt that way, but I've seen that.

But I don't want it to continue to be that way. And so this is what I do to actually make it change. And so I think that part of what we have to do, if we want to see a robust democracy, we have to have the orientation and shift the paradigm of how we're engaging people in the conversation. We engage people in the conversation like the only thing that matters and the only time they matter is if they participate in the conversation. We engage people in the conversation like the only thing that matters and the only time they matter is if they participate in this system. The truth of the

matter is we should start with the conversation is that you matter regardless. You matter because God created you, that you are a living human being and you have value. And to the extent that we see that and recognize and hear that, let's talk about what it is that your vision is for your life. What is it that you want to see? And then we back into voting could possibly be a tool that can actually help you. Like if someone says, well, I'm tired of police and I don't want to see police brutality. Do you know how a police chief is elected, is in power? And then we talk through the process, oftentimes nine times out of 10. I always tell people I've never lost a voter. I'm just like, at the end of the day, right? But I've also never forced an untrue and a false frame on people

that when people are saying they don't trust the system, I understand because there are times that I don't trust the system either. That when people are saying that they feel like there are things that don't matter when they vote, I felt like that. And if we're all honest, we've all felt that way. So we have to actually help people have an authentic conversation for people to really understand that we recognize the limitations of voting, but we also recognize its power. So Donald Trump this morning openly admitted that he's sabotaging the mail in order to stop us from voting. And, you know, I saw a lot of folks on Twitter, people were coming to me and saying, you know, I'm terrified. I'm feeling pretty helpless and powerless right now. Like, what's the use of all this hard work if he's just going to cheat? And how do we fight this? He's going to steal the election. What's your advice to these

people who, you know, watch Donald Trump doing this kind of stuff and are just terrified about what's going to happen in November? Well, the first thing I did right was the day I started to fight. Keep your eyes on the prize and hold on, hold on. I just wanted to start with that because at the end of the day, that you have to really get centered around keeping your eyes on the prize. That black people in this country, we have never been given a time or the space to be tired. That we have fought for our very existence from the time that we were bought over here in slave ships, that there are folks in my family that literally are living right now that were sharecroppers picking cotton, yet they still persisted, that ultimately, if this

nation is going to change, we've got to change it. And this is a moment, we have to know what moment we're in. And so I understand when they're saying they're tired. Lord knows I understand. Do you think I want to talk about racism? Imagine I'm tired of talking about racism. Imagine how I feel about dealing with it. I don't, right? And so, so at the end of the day, like, but I have no choice because ultimately I believe that I can co-create the kind of environment, the kind of nation that we deserve. And that's what I have to tap into. When my body is tired, I have to tap into that spirit that led to like those folks singing, those people like John, Representative John Lewis and C.T. Vivian and Amelia Boynton on that bridge that did not have government.

You talk about Trump, like Trump is one thing. These are people that didn't have government on their side that were actually beaten right in front of us and marginalized. And for the most part, racism, that was the flavor of the day, right? Openly, right? And so my point is, we don't have the privilege to say that I am tired and I don't work. That yes, we will acknowledge that this is a pretty tough time. But the only thing that I can say, and I don't work. That yes, we will acknowledge that this is a pretty tough time. But the only thing that I can say, and I often use this example, is that, you know, the way that diamonds are made, John, diamonds are made, all a diamond is, is a piece of coal. It is a piece of coal that under extreme pressure over a period of time

became a diamond. And how do we know a diamond between the coal? A diamond creates clarity. The value of a diamond increases with the amount of clarity that it has. And so what I am saying is in this moment of extreme pressure, what we need to be focused on is getting clarity. We got to get clear. We got to get clarity around why we've got to eliminate sexism and racism and homophobia and all those forms of oppression that keep us from being our greatest selves. Right. We have to literally find a way to do this a more excellent way that we are actually centering the value of human life over every single system. And to the extent that systems are not honoring that, those systems must be replaced, reformed, or abolished. And I got that from the U.S. Constitution. Well, Tasha Brown, you are incredible. You are incredible. Please come back like every week and give us a pep talk here. I think we'll all do a lot better. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for all the work you're doing. You were fantastic. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Alyssa, thanks for joining us today. That was fun. Thank you. Thank you both for having me today. You're welcome. On this final episode of That's the Ticket. Maybe we can have you on again before the election, John.

That would be lovely. I'm available. Talk to everyone. Bye. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.