Pod Save America - “Kamala at me, bro.” (Debate recap!)

Episode Date: October 8, 2020

Jon, Jon, Tommy, and Dan break down the vice presidential debate between Senator Kamala Harris and Vice President Mike Pence, and discuss Donald Trump’s decision to pull out of the second presidential debate. Then Beto O’Rourke talks to Jon Favreau about his efforts to turn Texas blue through his grassroots organization, Powered by People.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Later on the pod, I catch up with Beto O'Rourke, who's organizing a massive phone bank event next week to help turn Texas blue. Before that, the gang's all here to talk about last night's vice presidential debate. Quick note before we start, if you'd like to donate in these last few weeks and want to make sure you get the most bang for your buck, we've got you covered. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash donate, and you'll find our housekeeping fund,

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So just go to votesaveamerica.com slash donate to help out and get more information. All right, let's talk about last night. Senator Kamala Harris and Vice President Mike Pence met in Salt Lake City for the first and only vice presidential debate. USA Today's Susan Page moderated the 90-minute event where the two candidates were separated by 12 feet in plexiglass because Pence, who runs the White House COVID task force, may have been exposed to an infectious Donald Trump. Kamala spent most of the debate holding the president and Pence accountable for their record while making the case for the Biden-Harris ticket,

while Pence tried to defend the Trump record, evade questions he didn't like, and interrupt Harris like this. Well, let's get back. No, but Susan, this is important. And I want to add, Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking. I have to weigh in. I'm speaking. So aside from Pence's very annoying interruptions, the debate was the tame affair everyone asked for after last week's shit show between Trump and Biden,

though I did see a bunch of commentary saying it was too boring and forgettable. What did you guys think? It wasn't the shit show? Was it too boring? What kind of debate are we looking for here? Love it? I know. Look, boring is nice. I'm excited about boring. Boring is nice. I don't, I'm, I'm good for, I'm, I'm excited about boring. Uh, look, I think Trump shows up and he's blustery and he's interrupting and he's monstrous and he lies. Pence shows up and his whole ethos, his whole strategy, his whole, uh, mode of being as a politician, uh, is to lie while pretending Donald Trump doesn't exist. Just acting as if everything that's happening and swirling around him is not real. That does make for something boring, but I do think boring is pretty good for us because they need something to change. They need something to change quickly. And a boring debate between Kamala Harris and Mike Pence, in which Kamala Harris

delivers some pretty tough blows on the biggest issues facing the country, like COVID and the ACA. Then they mix it up and Pence does fine on the economy or what have you. And then the next morning, Trump calls up Bartiromo and calls Kamala Harris a monster is not the shift in the dynamic, I think, that they need. You know that that was on the message calendar. Dan, what did you think Kamala's strategy was going into this debate and how well did she execute? I think it was a three-part strategy. Part one was to continue to eviscerate the Trump-Pence record on COVID,

which is obviously the most important issue in this campaign. Step number two was to take any opportunity she could to offer details on the Biden-Harris agenda. She was able to do that, I think, particularly well on the Biden economic plan and the climate change plan. And then finally, is to remind people as often as possible that as we sit here in the middle of this pandemic, Donald Trump and Mike Pence are in court trying to kick millions of Americans

off health care. And she did that, I think, two or three times in a debate. So I think you have to judge these vice presidential debates differently than a presidential debate, because historically, these vice presidential debates don't move votes. They are about taking advantage of a large audience to provide potentially undecided voters with relevant information. And I think on that measure, Kamala Harris did incredibly well. I think if you were judging on who won the debate between the two of them, she also won that debate handily. But she advanced her campaign's strategic agenda much further than Mike Pence did the Trump agenda.

Tommy, how do you think that she handled all of Pence's interruptions? As well as she could. I mean, I'm going to Susan Page you, John, for a minute and just not answer a thing you asked by just pointing out the fact that I'm really mad that the debate even happened. It's very frustrating that Mike Pence was on a stage with her and not quarantining with his breathless, frail, ailing boss. They put everyone at risk a week ago, and now we're supposed to pretend that a piece of plexiglass solves the problem. I'm also frustrated that the debate commission still has not solved the problem of the interruptions. They've also created a structure that made these things pretty useless. I mean, Susan paid to better than Chris

Wallace, but she apparently wasn't allowed to ask follow-up questions. So there was no one helping her when Pence was trying to interrupt her. And there was no substance to the question. The point of the debate isn't civility. It's to get information that actually matters. And I don't know that they did this. I mean, I think, you know, I think all the polling we've seen so far today, it shows that people liked both Kamala Harris on style and on substance. So that to me suggests she handled Pence's interruptions pretty well. But overall, I mean, I think the takeaway was a lot of conversation about the coronavirus, which wasn't necessarily good for the Trump side of the ledger. Can I just say, I do think that there was a difference between what happened with interruptions in the first debate and this debate.

It is true that Pence spoke over Kamala Harris. He interrupted. He spoke too long. I will say, if a third of your points are being made while the moderator is saying, Mr. Vice President, Mr. Pence, thank you, Mr. Pence, it becomes about the interruption. And I think the really, what I really appreciated about how Kamala Harris handled those moments is I don't think it ever really prevented her from delivering the message she wanted to deliver. And she made moments out of needing to finish what she was saying and delivering some pretty good hits, even as he was kind of interrupting her, interrupting Susan Page, or what have you. I think she handled the interruptions masterfully. I think she was

forceful, but polite. I think that as a Black woman, she knew this and her team knew this going in. She faces like all kinds of double standards and you have to walk a tightrope. Like we know this because we know how Hillary had to deal with us in debates. We've all worked with Barack Obama, a black man who, you know, was sometimes concerned that he couldn't appear too angry, um, because of the various stereotypes that he has to face out there. So she knew all this walking into that, walking into the debate. And I thought the way she handled it by being very forceful, but also polite was perfect. And then when I still saw some fucking undecided assholes,

white guys and Frank Luntz's focus group saying that she was too harsh or whatever, it really just bummed me out. Not that I was surprised that there's sexism and racism and double standards out there, but just because I watched it without trying to look at Twitter or any, you know, and just see how she did. And I was like, I, I couldn't, I don't think she could have handled it better. Like, uh, with him interrupting all the time and her not being allowed to finish. I mean, it's very clear. She has a lifetime of experience of being interrupted

by dumb white guys and she knows exactly how to handle it. Um, I, it's very clear she has a lifetime of experience of being interrupted by dumb white guys, and she knows exactly how to handle it. It's not just these undecided voters in that focus group you mentioned who basically, as someone said on Twitter, I wish I remember who, that basically was like their comments was a lesson from a gender studies class in college, just how on the nose it was for misogynistic tropes. But I mean, the right wing leaned into this on Twitter. You know, you had Megyn Kelly saying, take it like a woman, don't make a face, which is quite a thing to say from someone who worked at Fox News. You had a whole bunch of, you know, Harlan Hill saying horribly offensive things about commoners. It's like they absolutely cannot help themselves when confronted with a impressive showing by a woman, particularly a black woman. It was just they like you would think there would be enough sense to just like take their foot off the gas, but they cannot help themselves and push the envelope.

And I haven't looked at what the horrible content that's trending right when content trending on Facebook is, but I have a pretty safe guess it's going to be all about this. Yeah, the one hopeful thing is, of course, there's a huge gender gap in the CNN poll about how she did. And we'll talk about the CNN poll later. But still, even with the gender gap, 48 percent of men thought she won versus 46 percent who thought she lost. So it was at least good to see that. But, you know, the right wing assholes were out in force. How do you guys think that Susan Page did as a moderator? We had some disagreement in our Slack channel over this. Love it's a big Susan Page fan. Look, what I said at the end of the night. Dan, not so much. Look, Dan and I really, you know,

we did mix it up in the group thread. I found, look, we just watched the worst debate in presidential history. We have a kind of raving steroid-addled misinformation, conspiracy theory spreading monster in the White House. And the final question being from a teen about civility and actually allowing Mike Pence a place to talk about how important it is that we get over our differences is like a pretty extraordinary abdication, I think, of responsibility. I don't think you need

to, I don't understand why it would be her job to ignore reality, right? Just there is a reality. Donald Trump is the, you know, there was just a study that found he's not, he's the leading source of misinformation on COVID. He's the leading divider in our country. So that was a bit frustrating. That said, I found her questions on COVID. I found some of the questions directed at Pence to be pretty direct and not willing to give Trump or Pence the benefit of the doubt. So I come away with a nuanced view. I've known Susan Page for a very long time. I think she is. She's a wonderful person, and she's a phenomenal reporter, and she knows a lot about politics.

And I agree with Lovett that her questions were really good. The problem isn't really with Susan Page. It's with the conception of a debate moderator as put forward by this absurd, ridiculous, completely pointless debate commission. The idea that a moderator should not see it as the role to ask follow-up questions or to fact-check obvious lies from candidates is absurd. lies from candidates is absurd. There's no point in putting journalists there to just sort of shepherd them around and ask questions if you're not going to hold their feet to the fire. And this is the problem. You have a debate commission that is run by an 80-something-year-old Republican gaming lobbyists. We live in this world where fact-checking is seen as partisan because Democrats use facts and Republicans lie. It's true. I mean, Republicans have been against debate moderators fact-checking since Candy Crowley

called Mitt Romney out for a lie on stage in the 2012 debate about Benghazi. And so now it is seen as unfair. So Chris Wallace, a person whose brain has been somewhat pickled through Fox News racist agitprop, but is a tough interviewer and fact-checked the living hell out of Trump in that interview, felt like it was not his job to fact-check, right? So what is the point of having these people there? And so I agree, like I completely agree with Lovett that that last question was absurd. I thought the questions, there's nothing that should have prevented Susan Page from saying, you didn't answer my question,

like when they answered a completely opposite topic. She did as well as you can and be expected, given the constraints that we've decided to put on debate moderators to make it easier for Mike Pence and Donald Trump to lie to the American people. Like she also said that her plan was to ask candidates some tough questions and some easy questions. Why plan to ask them easy questions? That's a fair point. Like if I wanted a substance list conversation where no one is challenged, I'd watch another episode of Emily in Paris, which is what I did after the debate was over. So like, come on, keep plugging that show. Tommy's been talking about Emily in Paris for three days now.

Are you guys getting a Netflix check? Because we're doing a lot of work here. It's indifference. Let us know. If you hate it, I think there's something going on. Don't tell me what I like. I'm going to the next clip. Enough. I was going to ask you another question. All right.

Let's break down a few of the notable moments. First question was about COVID, which Kamala called the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. And pointed out several times in the debate that the White House is actively trying to dismantle the Affordable Care Act in the middle of a pandemic. Mike Pence, meanwhile, offered thoughts and prayers for those affected by coronavirus, equated criticizing the president with denigrating the sacrifices the American people have made, and even accused Joe Biden and Harris of plagiarizing the White House's response plan. Let's take a listen. Well, the American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country.

And here are the facts. 210,000 dead people in our country in just the last several months. Over 7 million people who have contracted this disease. One in five businesses closed. We're looking at frontline workers who have been treated like sacrificial workers. The reality is, when you look at the Biden plan, it reads an awful lot,

like what President Trump and I and our task force have been doing every step of the way. I mean, quite frankly, when I look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new PPE, developing a vaccine, it looks a little bit like plagiarism, which is something Joe Biden knows a little bit about. And I think the American people know that this is a president who has put the health of America first. And the American people, I believe with my heart can be proud of the sacrifices they have made it's saved countless American lives Tommy lame plagiarism joke aside

that anyone under 50 years old probably doesn't understand what did you think of Mike Pence basically his response on COVID is oh we're just they just want to do the same thing we are as his like as his as his red eyes are bulging out of his face. I don't know what was wrong with his fucking eyes the whole time. The plagiarism joke probably killed with the 50 swing voters who have read What It Takes. Speaking of killing swing voters, like plagiarism? I'm sorry, are they infecting Gold Star families? That's your current plan, Mike Pence.

Like, it's just, I realize that Pence has no case to make here. There is no spinning 200000 people dead. It is still remarkable to me that their go to talking point is that they instituted a travel ban to China back in February. And since then, they have fucked up every single thing since. And somehow that sort of absolves them from this. I just like Pence had no case. And it wasn't just that he got drilled in this opening segment. He kept pivoting back to a conversation about the coronavirus and like putting himself on ground that I think is probably the worst polling issue they could be talking about. So I didn't think he got out of that in any way, shape or form. And I think, you know, Kamala Harris, like pretty thoroughly drilled him on their record here. Well, and I thought she did something interesting, which is she didn't

spend a lot of time on Trump's diagnosis, his behavior, the Rose Garden thing. She brought it up at one point, but she really went to the larger record on the pandemic. And then she hit them on health care. Here's a clip of her talking about pre existing conditions. On the one hand, you have Joe Biden, who was responsible with President Barack Obama for the Affordable Care Act, which brought health care to over 20 million Americans and protected people with pre existing conditions. And what it also did is it saved those families who otherwise were going bankrupt because of hospital bills they could not afford. On the other hand, you have Donald Trump,

who's in court right now, trying to get rid of... Thank you, Senator Harris. Trying to get rid of the Affordable Care Act, which means that you will lose protections if you have pre-existing conditions. And I just... This is very important, Susan. Yes, ma'am. And it's important...

We need to give Vice President... I'd just like to... He interrupted me, and I just, this is very important, Susan. Yes. And it's important. We need to give Vice President. I'd just like to, he interrupted me, and I'd like to just finish, please. If you have a pre-existing condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. If you love someone who has a pre-existing condition, they're coming for you. If you are under the age of 26 on your parents' coverage, they're coming for you. If you are under the age of 26 on your parents' coverage, they're coming for you. Dan, I thought,

I thought that was a great answer. And I also can't believe that we've now had two debates and at least Pence has not prepped an answer on ACA and pre-existing conditions. Like they just, can they just not defend this?

What's going on? There's no answer. They have no plan. Like their plan is can they just not defend this? What's going on? There's no answer. They have no plan. Like their plan is to take away the Affordable Care Act and fuck over millions of people. That has been their plan from the very beginning.

And it is truly, I mean, it's both an example of how intellectually bankrupt and cruel their approach is, but it's also, once again, not to pivot back to the moderator, but Pence said they have a plan, which would have been

a phenomenal time for Susan Page to say, tell us your plan. And he didn't do that because he can't. And they're sort of rerunning the 2018 Republican congressional playbook, which is just claim without evidence or regard for the truth that you protect people with pre-existing conditions, but Josh Hawley did to get elected. It's what a whole bunch of Republicans tried. It's what Trump is trying. And that could possibly work for some candidates running in red states. But when you are someone who has zero credibility with the vast majority of voters like Trump and Pence do, then it gets very, very, very challenging. And that's why it's so important that Kamala Harris brought it up

repeatedly. They are relying on the fact that their position is so heinous, it doesn't seem plausible. They are relying on the fact that they can say, we will protect preexisting conditions when their actual position is, we would like to eliminate the ACA without a replacement and cause untold havoc in people's lives. It's similar to choice as well, right? That's why Pence has to dodge the question on choice because their position is the same position he's had since he was the governor of Indiana, which is they would like to criminalize abortion. But of course, that position is so heinous that they are relying on the fact that if they allied the truth on it, not enough people will actually understand or truly countenance just how terrible the outcome of their actual policy

preferences would be. So the issue of racial justice was also raised last night when the candidates were asked whether they felt that justice had been served in the case of Breonna Taylor. Mike Pence pivoted to a law and order argument, denied the reality of systemic racism in the United States and began the following exchange with Kamala Harris. Here's a clip. And I must tell you this, this, this presumption that you hear consistently from Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, that America is systemically racist. And that, as Joe Biden said, that he believes that law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities is a great insult. And the reality of this is that we are talking about an election in 27 days where last week the president of the United States took a debate stage in front of 70 million Americans and refused to condemn white supremacists.

Not true. And it wasn't like he didn't have a chance. He didn't do it. And then he doubled down. Thank you, Susan. I appreciate that very much. You know, I think this is one of the things that makes people dislike the media so much in this country, Susan, is that you selectively edit, just like Senator Harris did, comments that President Trump and I and others on our side of the aisle make. Tommy, is Donald Trump's problem that he's selectively edited too often? Is that, that's the problem? Yeah, community theater Reagan impersonator,

Mike Pence thinks they selectively edited a live debate that we all watched last week. Mike Pence seemed offended on behalf of systemic racism. And I guess also like data. I mean, like we've had this conversation since June, there's been so much polling on on how people feel about racial justice about policing. We all know that public opinion is on the side of the Biden Harris position on this. I think that's the third issue

area, fourth issue area we've talked about so far on the show where all available evidence suggests that Mike Pence and Trump are taking the wrong side of an issue when it comes to trying to actually attract voters. So, yeah, this one didn't go all that well for Mike, I thought. Well, you could also tell like he he so clumsily pivoted to what he was obviously going to pivot to as soon as humanly possible which there's a discussion about brianna taylor's case and he immediately goes to rioting and looting and and you know the poor police and stuff like that because he thinks that's the only strong territory so i actually think that kamala did really really well zooming back to talk about trump the guy who's running for president, being a racist on stage at the debate. Right. I mean, look, the bottom line is, like, there were several high-profile cases of Black Americans being murdered by police this summer. And Mike Pence could not find it within himself

to have empathy for those individuals who were killed. He had to go to violence. He had to try to make it some sort of Blue Lives Matter wedge issue. it he's not good at this it came through it seems cynical to me he's a dimwit he really is dan you and i both were making this way like he was known for being dumb yeah i thought the whole thing was a good example of like how trumpism doesn't necessarily work without Trump. Because like Mike Pence, he doesn't get to do his own sort of Republican spiel. He has to be constantly defending Donald Trump and saying things like Donald Trump would say. But even his whole shtick about the media,

Susan, this is why people don't like the media. Like it just doesn't, it doesn't come off well from Mike Pence. I mean, it doesn't come off well from Donald Trump either, but at least with Trump, it's like part of his act. Mike Pence just looks like a fucking he's a bad Reagan impersonator. I feel like throughout the debate, you felt the kind of scale of coronavirus of protest against police brutality and systemic racism, economic dislocation, like the scale of the problems, like the actual crises that we're in made lines about plagiarism lines about, oh, riots. And then Tifa, like these little tiny

hits, they just don't work. We're not, we're just not at that level. Things are too bad. The crises are too deep. There's too much chaos in the White House for these little kind of pathetic, childish hits and media hits and all the rest to land. Like, we're not in that. We're not in that headspace as a country. We are in an emergency. And this shit just doesn't work. Just doesn't work. strategic objectives clearly was to paint the Biden-Harris ticket as extreme leftists. One of the tactics during the debate was clearly going to be, you know, Kamala Harris has a more progressive record than Joe Biden, wanted to like find the differences in their record, exploit them. You know, the Trump people have been trying to paint them as all secret leftists this entire campaign. Here are a few examples of how that went when Pence tried it. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris want to raise taxes. They want to bury our economy under a $2 trillion green new deal, which you were one of the original co-sponsors of in the United States Senate. They want to abolish fossil fuels and ban fracking, which would cost hundreds of thousands

of American jobs all across the heartland. Joe Biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. He has been very clear about that. Joe Biden will not end fracking. He has been very clear about that. Joe Biden is the one who, during the Great Recession,

was responsible for the Recovery Act that brought America back. And now the Trump-Hence administration wants to take credit when they rode the coattails of Joe Biden's success for the economy that they had at the beginning of their term. Of course, now the economy is a complete disaster. So, Dan, how do you think that Kamala handled both the tax hit and the Green New Deal hit? Very well, I thought. I mean, it's sort of this absurd, not particularly well thought out tactic in these vice presidential debates to say, well, yeah, sure. The guy at the top of the ticket doesn't believe this, but you believe it. Therefore, what? Right. It doesn't make a lot of sense. And it is, it's just, and I think a lot of

the entire Pence entire approach, and I think Shaniqua McClendon, Crooked Media's political director said this in the group thread last night, is he was just trying to get to the minimum word count on his college essay because he was just saying, just trying to like, he wasn't trying to achieve anything. He was just trying to say words to get to the end of the time. And I think having her say on camera that Joe Biden is not going to raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 is very, very powerful. And it sort of shows how one-dimensional the Trump-Pence strategy is as they led with that. Like you knew that was going to come when you said it. That is the fact that Trump cuts taxes for the rich and Joe Biden raises taxes on the

rich is a point in Joe Biden's favor with the overall majority of voters, including a majority of Trump voters. And so opening the door to that is particularly stupid. I mean, it's not stupid for Pence to try to say as many times as possible that Joe Biden is going to ban fracking in Pennsylvania. They've done that in advertising. They've done that in mail out there. They've done that in advertising. They've done that in mail out there. But it once again gave her the opportunity to say he's not and to talk about what their plan was and to talk about some of the details of the Biden-Harris climate change, which

I think is to their benefit to have that conversation. I do sort of wonder, there was a tax exchange where she said, you know, he's not going to raise taxes on anyone making under $400,000 a year. Pence said, oh, if you repeal the Trump tax cuts, obviously that's going to raise some taxes on middle-class people because some of the, even though most of the Trump tax cuts were just for the rich and for corporations, there are some that were on more middle-class

and she just didn't answer that question. I'm sort of wondering like what Biden will do in the next debate if asked that. Obviously Trump's not going to nail him down because Trump doesn't have the mental wherewithal. Or the lung capacity. Or the lung capacity. But I could imagine a moderator trying to nail him down on that. I also just like, we also have kind of like COVID goggles on. Like, yeah, like that was like a real exchange. It's actually a winning issue for Democrats. It's not as clean

as they failed on the greatest crisis in 100 years and the only thing that matters. So yeah, like was a back and forth. It wasn't a totally clean hit. That's okay. In a whole debate in which the most important two issues, Affordable Care Act and COVID, she managed to land just absolutely withering hits. And Pence had nothing to say. I think matters more than the fact that there was a bit of a kind of spongy tax exchange, by the way, that came after a great hit on Trump paying $750 in taxes and owing $400 million to God knows who. That was really good. There was also a Supreme Court question where he kept trying to pin her down on, will you pack the court? Are you expanding the court? She also just did not take the bait on that one. Tommy, that's another one that will surely come up if there is another debate. Trump thinks, you know, they all think this is a winning issue because the pundits all think that, you know, this is a winning issue,

too, for them, because Biden and Harris haven't said whether they will expand the Supreme Court or not or whether they're even considering it. Do you think they can continue to just not answer that question or is there a better answer? I mean, look, my personal take is like, I don't, I don't need to hear Joe Biden say he will pack the court and expand it before the election. I'm okay with them skirting it. I'm not sure it's the best answer where we've landed. It seems a little rough, a little tumultuous. Like there's a way you could just throw it to Congress and say, actually, that's up. That's up to the Senate. That's up to the House to vote on whether or not they would do that. That wouldn't be up to the executive.

It seems like that would be an easy way out of it. I'm kind of skeptical that people really care. I think these guys live in MAGA land where people automatically know what the Green New Deal is and automatically think it's bad. I'm not sure that's the case. You know, like that tax hit was the only area where I thought maybe they made up some ground. I wish Biden and Harris had a little bit better a court packing answer. But yeah, I don't know. Do I think people came away from that debate last night thinking,

I might not support Biden and Harris because they might pack the courts? No, nobody would be my guess. I would try and answer like Mitch McConnell in 2016 single-handedly changed the size of the court when he stole that seat, the Gorsuch seat. And since then, he has completely packed the courts, Supreme Courts, circuit courts, federal courts with the most extreme right-wing judges. And now he's trying to do it again before an election while people are already voting. People don't want this justice to be seated before an election, and he's going to do it anyway. people don't want this justice to be seated before an election and he's going to do it anyway we're we're fighting as hard as we can to stop him from packing the court right now and we're going to try to stop him from doing that first and then we'll see what happens afterwards but i'm going to focus on the fight in front of us first yeah like just say something like that or just hand him a balloon and say inflate this before i answer the rest of your questions see if you can explain this thing on your own look I feel like there's two options, right? There's like kind of, John, I saw you talking about this on Twitter. Like you can basically just say like,

I hope it doesn't come to it, but if they push us, like, fuck yeah, we'll do it. Right. But there's also a kind of version of like a forlorn, like, I really hope it doesn't come to that. Like, I just hope we can fight this. I hope we fight this nomination. I think we can defeat this nomination. I hope they don't pack the court. And other than that, I'm not going to engage in hypotheticals. I'm trying to get this fight done. And hopefully we can stop Amy Coney Barrett. And it will never come to that.

Schumer gave them the answer. Schumer said, I'm not taking anything off the table. And everyone was like, oh, my God, Schumer left that on the table. And then that's it. Then no one said anything to him again. He's fine. Chuck Schumer went on his merry way. He just went on to shoot more.

No one asked him a follow-up. Shoot more vampire fundraising videos for YouTube. Dan, what do you think? I know you've written you've written a lot. You're a big fan of

court expansion. We don't call it packing guys. Rebalancing, perhaps court rebalancing. What do you think? I am for renovating a little sprucing up.

We're sprucing up the courts. Yeah, a little court redecorating. I think that dais will look better with two additional chairs on either end. That's what I personally think. It's feng shui. I've worked on feng shui. I think that answer, John, that you gave is right.

There's no, they need a better answer to it. I do think one thing that was very powerful that Kamala Harris did, which is an absolutely stunning fact that we should get more attention, is that Donald Trump hasn't appointed a black person to the court. What the fuck? That's an unbelievable stat. I learned that. I learned something from the debate. That was really good. That is absolutely my point.

We should say that more often. I think there is – the Chuck Schumer answer is the right answer, and I think the forlorn tone is the right way to do it. There is one audience in addition to prominent court packers like ourselves to hear that, and it is John Roberts, who is going to have to make a whole bunch of decisions in the coming months with a completely rigged court. And he is someone who has shown in the past to have some very real concerns about his legacy as it relates to the fate of the court and the idea that decisions that he makes that are very clearly putting his thumb on the electoral scale

could lead to a changing of the court matters a lot. I think that I believe that that is part of what Schumer is doing by saying that is sending a lot. I believe that that is part of what Schumer is doing by saying that, is sending a message. Taking it off the table gives Roberts free will to do something, not just on ACA and Roe, but also in a nightmare scenario on a Bush v. Gore too. And the idea that that is going to have some consequences in the back of his head, I think is important. That's smart. I think there's one other piece of this too, which is the lack of an answer has led, I think,

to a lot of Republicans who are trying to kind of make intellectually dishonest arguments in favor of doing the confirmation is, it doesn't matter what we do, they're going to pack the court. And I think the reality, of course, is Joe Biden is incredibly reluctant to do something like this. He is an institutionalist to the core. And so making it clear that like, despite, I think, what a lot of left- wing activists and progressive activists would want, which is to pack the court no matter what for Joe Biden to say, not explicitly, but basically say, I hope it doesn't come to that. I don't want to do that. But if they push us, we may have no choice, I think kind of kind of speaks to both sides.

Renovate the court. After not hearing a lot about foreign policy in the first debate, Susan Page did ask a few questions about this. Kamala Harris talked about rebuilding alliances while Mike Pence talked about crushing ISIS. Pence attacked Biden for opposing the decision to take out Qasem Soleimani. Harris responded by pointing out all the ways Donald Trump has disrespected those who serve in the military. Here's a clip. But you mentioned Soleimani. Let's start there. So after the strike on Soleimani, there was a counter strike on our troops in Iraq. And they suffered serious brain injuries. And do you know what Donald Trump dismissed them as?

Headaches. And this is about a pattern of Donald Trump's, where he has referred to our men who are serving in our military as suckers and losers. The American people deserve to know, Qasem Soleimani, the Iranian general, was responsible for the death of hundreds of American service members. When the opportunity came,

we saw him headed to Baghdad to kill more Americans. President Trump didn't hesitate. members. When the opportunity came, we saw him headed to Baghdad to kill more Americans. President Trump didn't hesitate. And Qasem Soleimani is gone. But you deserve to know that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris actually criticized the decision to take out Qasem Soleimani. It's really inexplicable. But with regard to Joe Biden, it's explainable because history records that Joe Biden actually opposed the raid against Osama bin Laden. Tommy, what do you think about that exchange? I mean, I don't think anyone really understood what they were talking about. I mean, just

for our listeners, right? I mean, they assassinated Qasem Soleimani in January. The Iranians responded with this massive missile strike. They tried to play it down like nothing happened. And as Kamala Harris mentioned, like I think 100 service members had traumatic brain injuries, which was a big deal. The reason they said they had to assassinate a senior military leader in Iran was because they were providing material support to all these Shiite militia groups in Iraq that were attacking U.S. service members in the region. That, what they call, They call that deterrence. But just

like last week, we learned that that deterrence is going so poorly that the United States might have to fully withdraw U.S. embassy personnel from our embassy in Baghdad, which is an embassy the size of Vatican City that cost a billion dollars to build, which is one of the most heavily fortified embassies on the planet, right? So the policy they are describing in terms of killing Soleimani has completely failed. But then Pence goes on to totally debase himself by raising his children and their military service as a shield to defend Donald Trump, who he knows damn well said troops who died are suckers and losers.

We know that because General Kelly has refused to deny the reports that were originally in the Atlantic. So what this showed me was like, again, Mike Pence is willing to say and do anything, even cheapen the service of his own family members in service of Donald Trump. Let's talk about the post-debate reaction. Instant polling by CNN showed Kamala Harris as the decisive winner, 59-38%. Harris also saw her favorability ratings rise from 56% before the debate to 63% after, while Pence's favorability numbers with the poll didn't budge an inch, remaining at 41 percent. An Ipsos poll with 538 found pretty much the same thing. The majority of voters thought that Kamala Harris did better than Pence.

The majority of voters liked her policies better than Pence's. And she saw her favorability rise to plus 10 in that poll. And Mike Pence's remained at negative 14, didn't move at all. pences remained at negative 14, didn't move at all. So, you know, what, if anything, did each campaign achieve here? And how much will this debate matter at all? Dan? I think there was an opportunity to deliver a message to what I assume was tens of millions of people watching this debate, some of whom are undecided about whether they're going to vote and undecided about who they're going to vote for. The polling shows, common sense shows that Kamala Harris did a much better job of that opportunity than Pence did. But the vice presidential debate is not a huge

event on the path to election day. But it is a moment that matters. And when you are winning, as Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are, every time one of these moments passes and you are still winning, that is good. And so they should feel very good about where they are today. Love it. Yeah, I agree with that. Also, one thing we didn't talk about is just that Kamala Harris just took a— Oh, we didn't talk about the fly. Shit.

Yeah, we also forgot to talk about the fly. Well, you know, I think a few people on Twitter have mentioned it. we also forgot to talk about the fly. Well, you know, I think a few people on Twitter have mentioned it. I think she also took a chance to kind of tell her bio to do her bio. And I think that there was value to that because, you know, they're like Susan Page asked the question at the end that referenced it. Neither one really answered it, but it is present that both that Joe Biden is older and there's a, you know, a question as to whether he would run for re-election and the fact that she just took an opportunity to run through her qualifications, talk about her past, I think has value. And all in all, what did Mike Pence do to convince

millions upon millions of Americans that the Trump administration has failed abysmally on the biggest challenges facing the country? I don't think anything. I don't think there is anything he could say. Their positions are indefensible and he didn't succeed. Tommy, will anyone be talking about this this time tomorrow? No. This time today. I'm shocked we're talking about it right now. Yeah, I am too, right? Because Donald Trump decided to unburden himself to Maria Bartiromo for like 35, 45 minutes this morning and said a bunch of batshit stuff. And so we're talking about that instead. What was interesting to me was in a debate that was pretty combative. And often when you're sort of like engaged in political combat,

people don't like either side, right? Kamala Harris still managed to improve her favorability ratings in that CNN poll. It went from 56% to 63%. And I do think that was directly attributed to the way she handled herself. I also agree, love it. I thought that question early on when she decided to just not even come close to answering whatever the question was and just tell a story about herself and her parents and her upbringing was like a very savvy moment to just tell the story and sort of leaven what had been kind of a tough back and forth with just some sort of hopeful, optimistic two minutes. Like Hannah couldn't watch the debate.

And then when that happened, she came and sat down next to me for a minute and a half until she left again when Pence started talking. So the winner tonight was civility, guys. I mean, I can't emphasize enough how difficult it is to debate when you're up there. I saw a lot of people on Twitter, to the extent that Kamala Harris got criticism. Some people were like, oh, she missed an opportunity to hit him here or she could have hit him here. You know, like the sheer number of things that you have to keep in your mind when you're sitting on that debate stage for 90 minutes. First of all, imagine the anxiety.

You're in front of like tens of millions of Americans. She's had a bigger audience than she's ever had in her life, right? Same with Mike Pence. Same with anyone who does one of these presidential debates. And then you have prepped all this time. So you have lines that you have to deliver. You have moments that you're trying to hit. And then whatever your plan is, it's constantly getting interrupted by whatever the moderator wants to do and whatever Mike Pence wants to do. So the fact that you have all those things going on and she still was able to check off everything on her list, right? Like talked about her bio, talked about Biden's economic plan, did the health care hit, did

the COVID hit? Like she got so much done during that debate while being interrupted. I thought it was a really, really impressive performance. It's probably one of the most impressive debate performances we've seen in a very long time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's easy to get lost in frustration with the moderators and the presence of Plexiglas and all of that. But she is a phenomenally talented communicator, and she delivers in big moments.

She talks like a human, which is something we talk about all the time. She doesn't use political jargon. big moment. She talks like a human, which is something we talk about all the time. She doesn't use political jargon. She looks directly into the camera and she has, as you said, a punch list of things she wants to accomplish with the audience that she has. And she went through, I imagine, pretty close to that entire list. And that is something that should be incredibly applauded. And this is like, this is one of those moments where she has everything to lose. Biden is winning. The press is just chomping at the bit for something it could possibly do

for a change in narrative. And she is a black woman on national television dealing with a press corps and set of pundits who still abide by a lot of the racist and misogynistic tropes. You saw it in the coverage of her in the primary debates. You saw the coverage of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in their previous debates. And to do that with that much

pressure on with the highest stakes, the most important election in history is incredibly impressive. And it shouldn't get lost because a fly lit on Mike Pence's head. As Tommy mentioned, you know, thanks to Donald Trump, the debate is already out of the news cycle. Patient Zero did a phone interview with MAGA pundit Maria Bartiromo, where he twice called Kamala Harris a monster, attacked his attorney general and FBI director for not yet indicting Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton, and blamed Gold Star military families who've lost loved ones for giving him COVID-19. Trump also announced he will not be participating in the next presidential debate because the Commission on Presidential Debates has chosen a virtual format in order to protect people from a potentially infectious Donald Trump. So Biden campaign released a statement saying they were prepared to accept the virtual format. But now that Trump has pulled out, Biden will find a way to take questions from voters on October 15th and has asked the commission to move the Biden Trump town hall debate to

October 22nd, which is the date of the third and final debate. Then the Trump campaign came back and said, OK, we'll do that. But we still want the third debate now on October 29th, which is a few days before the election. And the Biden campaign said, fuck off. Do the virtual debate if you want. What do you guys think of this move? What do you think of Trump's meltdown this morning? Love it. What do I think of it? Like he's spinning out. He obviously is refusing to say yes to the virtual debate because it highlights the fact that he is sick and contagious because of his recklessness and incompetence in controlling a pandemic, not just nationally, but in his own home.

So obviously a virtual debate would be an advertisement for his failures. That's not the commission's fault. Also, the mute button. Got that mute button. Well, right. Yeah, the mute button is deadly to him. He can't be muted. So it's embarrassing to admit reality. I mean, you know, that's not the commission's fault. That's not Joe Biden's fault. So I think all in all, I think he's seeing the polls. He is seeing reviews of Mike Pence favorably compared to his own performance. He is seeing the fact that his tax returns are being exposed in legal proceedings in New York. And he is lashing out unhelpfully. Tommy, I feel like the Biden campaign

is on pretty firm ground here. Saying that like, look, they came up with a virtual debate. You said no, we're not going to do your fucking October 29th, three days before the election final debate. Do the debate that the commission asked. He has COVID.

And he probably had it at the last debate and they lied about it. Like the Biden, the Biden people should never walk in the room with him again. He is an unhinged, unhealthy old man who should go get bedrest or do whatever he needs to do to get healthy. And like, just for like, I think the Biden campaign is doing exactly what they should do. Just to just step back for one second about how ridiculous the Trump campaign strategy is. He spent like 30 minutes, 45 minutes on the phone with Maria Bartiromo on Fox Business. How many people watch that show? 200,000, 300,000. That was how you spent your time today. He also attacked Mike Pompeo for not releasing Hillary Clinton's emails. He said Don Jr., his son, couldn't win in New York City.

It was just like your classic Donald Trump ranting, raving nonsense. He sounds to me like a man who knows he's going to lose and he doesn't know how to fix it. And he's just going to bitch and moan until the votes are cast. Dan, isn't it in his interest to do two more debates, to accept two more debates? Like he's behind. Right. Why wouldn't you try? If he wasn't an incoherent, raving lunatic. Right. I mean, that's the problem. Like when his the best thing for Trump to do to have any chance to win this election would be to stop talking. Yeah. Right. Like every like his presence on that stage was a disaster for him the last time. His presence on the stage the next time will also probably be a disaster for him. And even if he were to be able to do an OK job and then have Biden make some sort of mistake, which I can't really fathom what that would be, that would overcome the fact that Donald Trump gave himself COVID after failing to respond to a potential 210,000 Americans.

Throw some salt over your back. Dan, you can't just say, I can't fathom what it is and then just leave it there. You got to throw some salt behind you. You got to do something. Sorry, we're actually going to have to edit. We're going to have to edit that out

for karma's sake. Sacrifice that for karma. Let's say he did make a mistake. Like Donald Trump would just call Fox and Friends the next morning and draw attention back to himself again. And so like, just when you read the summary of what Donald Trump said on Maria Bartiromo this morning, which I did not like waking up to that in midstream was

really jarring this morning and seeing the tweets about it. I dove in. But you read, but you read that list of things. And it reminds me of something. Many, many, many years ago, Ron Klain, who's one of Biden's top advisors, and I were advising a candidate at the same time. And the candidate did something absolutely insane. And I called Ron to tell him what it was. And Ron said to me, Dan, that is an A-plus answer to a political science question of how do you lose an election? And so like, that's what that was. And it's just it's truly mind boggling that he would do those things. It actually says a lot about how totally fucked up the American political system is that this race is still not over yet, despite Donald Trump doing those things on a regular basis.

Well, I was thinking about that, too. I think there's so much noise. Like there are so many crazy trump statements he's putting out these fucking videos from the white house that you know just before we started recording he's he's he did he did a direct address to seniors where he called them vulnerable and then promised them a free cure like everyone like you get a regeneron you get a regeneron you get a like he's promising he's promising treatments to everyone he like in that paragraph i just i just read like blaming the gold star families for giving him covid even though he met with them the day after the rose garden ceremony so it's very likely that he infected

gold star families with covid 19 in the same breath as he's calling on on his attorney general to fucking indict barack obama hillary clinton and joe biden which is like something that because he's done it so many times now we just were like oh yeah there he goes again calling for the imprisonment of all his political opponents haha crazy trump well it's um look i i think the serious part about all of this is is this person has always been unfit he's's always been monstrous. It's just sort of fully revealed now. There's nothing else left. There's just failure and the kind of purest and worst form of Trump. And, and the, it ultimately is a reminder that this election isn't really about him. Like he is who he is. He is monstrous. He can't shift.

He has no strategy. He can't fix it. The only question is, is the brokenness in our system, is the propaganda all around him, is the rot that allows him to be taken seriously and treated as though there's an actual political debate in our country. Is all of that enough to overcome like democracy and the basic virtues of politics in which we claim to have a debate about our differences that we adjudicate in front of the American people? to have a debate about our differences that we adjudicate in front of the American people?

Like, are those forces of kind of brokenness and institutional decline able to overcome the good work and the democracy that everybody is fighting for? And I hope the answer is yes, but I don't think anyone should pretend it's a sure thing. Yeah, my takeaway from this morning is like, look, anything can happen. He could still win. We all need to just do the work. But like the first debate, the VP debate, this call this morning, it just reminds you how much they have lost the thread. Like in 2016, he had a message. It was like, I'm not a Washington insider. Crooked Hillary's emails are bad. He used to hit her on trade all the time. Now they're just flailing. And like Mike Pence is flailing along with him.

That closing bit he did about the Russia probe and the spite on my campaign, that nonsense is for an audience of one. That is designed to make Donald Trump happy. It is not designed to win a campaign. So they're not doing anything to help themselves win. Meanwhile, they're pulling down ad buys in like every state that matters like look i'm not trying to be cocky i'm not predicting shit but like they're not setting themselves up for success no there there's no message you're totally right they're flailing

obviously we all look for things to be anxious about all the time because of 2016 and because of who we are like you know it is it's octoberth. There are well, there'll be three weeks left next Tuesday. So a little more than three weeks left. That is a lot of time left on the clock for Donald Trump. Maybe he can come up with some closing message. Maybe he can be a little more coherent. Maybe, you know, he's trying to mail seniors $200 drug cards or at least say he's going to paid for by them paid for by taxpayers. So he's going to try to like every trick in the book, every abuse of power he can think of. He's going to try it out the next three weeks. And I do think, you know, I think to myself, like last Monday was the tax story, the tax story before the debate, before the COVID diagnosis that all happened in the last week. In the last three weeks has been the Atlantic story, the Woodward story, the taxes, two debates and Trump getting covid. Three weeks, not to mention a Supreme Court seat opening. Yes, yes.

And the Supreme Court. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. Like, you know, they're going to Democrats are going to do whatever they can to stop Amy Coney Barrett from being nominated. But again, like we've said before, Mitch McConnell has the votes. He changes the rules. He can do whatever he want as the guy that runs the Senate. So we should, you know, we should fight like hell, but we should not kid ourselves that it's very possible they could seat her. And then that's another win for Trump or whatever. So stay vigilant in these

last three weeks. But like you said, Tommy, there is there is no closing message or argument like there was in 2016. Did you see that Mitch McConnell today said he hasn't been to the White House in two months? Yes. Yes. Yeah, and took a shot at Trump. He said he hasn't been there because they don't do social distancing like I want. That's basically what he said. Trump's going to hate that.

He knows he's the last line of defense for a minority role, and he cannot put himself at risk. He's basically the designated survivor. So he can go nowhere near Trump. But also today we learned that Mark Meadows in May hosted a 70 person wedding for his daughter where no one wore masks, no one socially distanced. And they did this in Atlanta. So, you know, rules for thee, not for me. It's just plutocracy assholes. I mean, it's a shock that didn't happen in the Rose Garden. Yeah, seriously. Another story, another scandal. It's just, there's too many.

All right, when we come back, I will talk to Beto O'Rourke. I'm now joined by former Texas congressman and the founder of Powered by People, Beto O'Rourke. Welcome back to Pod Save America, Beto. John, it's so good to see you. I wish this were in person, but it's still good to see you across the screen. It's good to see you too.

First question. Saw some pretty wild polls in your state this morning. Is this the year we're turning Texas blue? Is it going to happen? It is. So it's been 44 years. Last time it happened was in 1976, almost half a century since a Democrat won the electoral college votes in Texas. But the poll I saw this morning, probably same one you're referring to, Biden, 48, Trump, 48. And it doesn't mean that Biden's going to do it. It just means that it is fully possible

and within our power to make it so. And so there are, as you know, so many amazing state house candidates in Texas, congressional candidates in Texas, a revived Texas Democratic Party, you know, so many people doing what they can to make the most of this opportunity. And I really think that we have no better shot of ending this on election night, given the fact that Pennsylvania will take maybe days or weeks to count their ballots than for Texas, 38 electoral college votes,

the night of November 3rd, to come in for the Democrat for the first time in a half century. And mathematically, and then maybe more importantly, psychologically, it becomes impossible for Trump to move forward. And we turn the page on that and start something new and ambitious and perhaps the most progressive administration in the history of this country. So a lot, I believe, is riding on Texas. So I want to talk all about the state legislative races. But just before

we get there, from a statewide perspective, your race against Cruz, you got to 48 percent. Like, how does a Democrat in Texas get that extra two percent? If you had to do it over all over again, if you were running statewide again, where would you look for those votes? Well, a couple things. One, since I ran, anywhere from 8,000 to 900,000 Texans have become registered to vote. So there's almost an entirely new electorate in the state. It tends to be young. It tends to be incredibly diverse. It tends to be concentrated in North Texas around the DFW Metroplex and Southeast Texas around Houston. So connect with those young voters and those new Texans who've moved here from other states and those new registrants. You know, I don't know, John, you know, going to 254 counties and making sure no one was written off, no one was taken for granted. We ran that pretty hard. And not only did we have the best turnout in midterm since 1970 in the state of Texas, not only did I win more votes than any Democrat had ever won, you had half a million people, 500,000 vote for Greg Abbott for governor, voted for me

for US Senate, which has something to do with the campaign we ran, may have a lot to do with Ted Cruz and just how vile a human being he is. And I think that we're actually working with a similar dynamic here. Unfortunately, more than 16,000 of my fellow Texans have lost their lives. Most of them did not need to do that. We represent 4% of the world's population as a country. We're a fifth of the world's deaths. This is 100% attributable to Donald Trump, those who have enabled him like John Cornyn, and those who are following in his footsteps, like our governor, Greg Abbott, and that is not lost

on the voters of this state. They're connecting the dots. And so I think that poll that shows what is possible, if we all are doing our part, connecting with those voters, if Joe Biden follows up on this really impressive investment he's made, six million bucks, which is probably six million more than any Democratic nominee for president has spent in Texas, at least on the air in decades, we could really come through for the country. So I think building upon the great work that everyone did in 2018, the great contrast we have with Trump and the Republican Party, and then making sure that people know what the consequence of another four years of Trump is, and then what's possible with the four years of Biden and Harris. Can you talk about why you started Powered by People and what kind of work you've been doing since last fall? Yeah, I think the most exciting level of government, especially in Texas right now, is the state legislature. This is where the rubber meets the road when you're

talking about access to health care. We're the least insured state in the country. Number one provider of mental health care is the county jail system. Largest inpatient mental health care facility is the Harris County Jail. We elected not to expand Medicaid when the federal government was going to pay 100 cents on the dollar in order to do that. And therefore, many Texans are far sicker than they otherwise would be, are dying, and they don't have to. That state legislature in democratic control could expand Medicaid and therefore the ability to see a doctor and save somebody's life. We are on the front lines of climate change here in energy-rich Texas that could be the leader in renewable energy and that would be a decision for the state legislature. We are at the front lines

of gun violence. El Paso, Midland Odessa, Sutherland Springs, Santa Fe High School, so many mass shootings have taken place here in Texas. We expanded the ability to carry guns on campuses and in churches and in businesses in the wake of those shootings. Having gun sense candidates who can appeal to gun owners and non-gun owners alike, that becomes possible with the Democratic majority. And then this, and you all have been so focused on this and we are grateful, you know, Greg Abbott last week closing down all of the absentee ballot drop-off locations in the 254 Texas counties, save for the one at central headquarters in each county. That, compounded by the most

rigorous voter ID laws, 750 polling place closures, most of them located in Black and Latino neighborhoods over the last eight years, the racial gerrymander that is Texas, and those are the words of a federal judge, not mine. You get a Democratic majority with a seat at the table in 2021 when we redistrict this state and draw in three new congressional districts thanks to our population growth. And you get a democracy that begins to work again, not one that has drawn Black Texans and Mexican American Texans out solely based on the color of their skin or their country of national origin, but one that reveals its true genius through its diversity. We have been held back for so long.

Not a red state, not a Republican state, not a blue state, just a non-voting state up to this point. And winning the state legislature changes all that. And one other thing. I think there is, my theory of the case, to use a phrase I often associate with you, is that instead of top-down coattails, you know, a big spend from the top of the ticket, lots of organizing statewide, and the votes trickle down, we're going to have all these great statehouse candidates who, by the way, most of them are women, women of color, and many black women among them. and many black women among them, they are enlarging the electorate. They're registering new voters. They're exciting these new voters. They're bringing people in who otherwise would

not vote. And those voters and votes will travel up ballot to the congressional races, to the U.S. Senate race, where M.J. Hagar could beat John Cornyn. And I think they, more than any other factor or force, will help Joe Biden win this state. So powered by people is really just a bunch of us volunteers, more than 6,000 of us making phone calls, writing postcards, texting. Pre-COVID, we were knocking on doors to reach the voters in these competitive state house districts that can decide the outcomes of these elections. And it is pretty thrilling. It reminds me a lot of the 2018 campaign, just very grassroots, folks taking the matter into their own hands, calling complete

strangers and bringing them in, and hopefully producing the largest turnout we've seen in a presidential election cycle ever. And how are voters responding to this? Because traditionally, at least for the last decade, last several years, it's been really hard to get people to focus on sort of down ballot races, local races. Like how much sort of education do you have to do when you're talking to voters about like this is a state legislative race that's really important that you should focus on? Yeah. So I'm on all these phone banks that we do. And I got to tell you, and you know this from doing this kind of work, it's not necessarily fun. And it's certainly not easy. You might be getting a lot of hangups. Yeah.

You might be getting somebody in the middle of dinner. You may just have somebody who doesn't want to talk about this with a complete stranger on the phone. But when I get the right person at the right number and they take the time to talk with me, the most gratifying response I get is I didn't know that Elisa Simmons was running for state house here in Arlington. I didn't know about Akilah Basie or Kiki Williams. She is running just outside of Fort Hood in a community that hasn't been represented by a Democrat, and I don't know how long, 24-year Army veteran running this tenacious campaign. And when I connect with voters in her district, they are thrilled that she's running. They didn't know a Democrat was running. They didn't know that they had a 24-year Army veteran to choose. And that's when I know that

these calls make a difference, that you might otherwise have had somebody in a state that just ended straight ticket voting for this cycle. You might have people who vote for the presidential race, maybe the U.S. Senate, and then go home. They're now going to stay on that ballot six pages later and vote for that state rep candidate. So I know that this works. I know it is tough, but if this stuff were easy, we'd be a blue state already. And it's going to take this kind of work to bring it home. And just from a numbers perspective, how close are you guys to flipping the legislature? How many seats? How close is it? Yeah, so we are, thanks to the great work everyone did in 2018, where we picked up 12

state house seats, we are only nine down. And the great thing is, in nine of those districts we want to win, I actually won more votes than did Ted Cruz. So in that case, in that year in 2018, folks just didn't complete the job and go down the ballot. So we know we can turn out Democratic voters in sufficient numbers to win these races. So we've got to win those. We've got to hold the ones that we picked up in 2018. But what's so exciting is that we are contesting everywhere. And I just think it's beautiful. There's a guy, Jason Rogers, running, a Democrat running in East Texas in a seat that hasn't seen a Democrat run in like 20 or 30 years. He is an army veteran. He's a retired public school teacher, and he's

currently a diesel mechanic. And he's talking to the people in his district in a way that they can understand that kind of transcends party or ideology or your pre-held conceptions about what a Democrat is or is not. And I don't know if Jason Rogers is going to win. I think he's got a shot. But what he is going to do is he's going to bring in more voters than would otherwise turn out because there hasn't been a contest there in decades. And those voters are going to go right up the ballot to Joe Biden. So it's pretty cool to see what's happening across the board and across the state in Texas right now. You guys are hosting a million voter phone bank on Monday, October 12th. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, this is going to be really fun. And it's I think the biggest voter phone bank we've seen in Texas, certainly that I've been a part of. biggest voter phone bank we've seen in Texas, certainly that I've been a part of. We're going to try to call a million voters that we have already identified because powered by people, the Texas Democratic Party, the candidates themselves have made tens of millions of voter contact attempts. We've identified our voters. Now we've got to turn them out. So on Monday, the 12th of October, which is the eve of early voting, which starts the next day on Tuesday, we're going to try to call a million known Democratic voters and get them to make a commitment to vote on the first day of early voting, thereby avoiding any long lines on November 3rd, making sure that they get their votes in. We're going to be joined by Oprah Winfrey, Willie Nelson, Bernie Sanders, Stacey Abrams, Julian Castro, Andrew Yang, and a bunch of other amazing people. What a crew. What a crew. I like that.

I'm so pumped to be a part of this and so grateful that these folks who have such a large following and are so concerned about the state of our democracy and the need to vote are willing to lend their names and their time to this as well. So the Million Voter Phone Bank on Monday, the 12th of October. So you guys have had a number of obstacles to overcome. You've talked about some of them. Pandemics made it harder to organize and register voters. You know, you mentioned like every other day, I see a story in the news about some other Republican voter suppression tactic in Texas. How are you dealing with all this shit, both from like a tactical perspective and also

from a psychological perspective for voters to feel like, oh, everything's stacked up against us. What can I do? Yeah, great question. I mean, you've got to go in eyes wide open. You have to acknowledge that voter suppression is alive and well in Texas, that you know what you're walking into. I mentioned the polling place closures and the voter ID laws. You can use your license to carry a firearm in Texas to prove who you are at your precinct. You can't use your student ID. As an example, and this latest move by Greg Abbott to close down the absentee ballot collection sites is just more of it. But if we leave it there, then all we've done is kind of depress people and inadvertently and unwittingly help those Republicans suppress

the vote. So let's talk about this. In Harris County, which is home to Houston, Texas, which has more people in it than the state of Colorado or the state of Nevada, has 2,000 square miles, mas o menos. They've got 24-hour voting. They have voter super centers where you can keep safe distance and very convenient and can accommodate a lot of people. They have drive-through voting so you don't have to leave your car. drive-through voting so you don't have to leave your car. And Chris Hollins, who is the county clerk there, has implemented a ballot tracker for those who want to entrust their absentee ballot to the U.S. mails. They'll track that and confirm when they have received it. So many of these counties, most of them led by Democrats, are making it incredibly easy for people to vote nonetheless.

And that's how we're going to overcome this desperate attempt to suppress or intimidate voters. We're not going to allow them to do that. And so I think we have to keep continuing to share that message about how easy so many in so many counties have made it to vote. And then we've got to also, beyond voting, beyond expressing our outrage about voter suppression on Twitter, we've got to do some of the hard work, the grind of a voter phone bank. I mean, this stuff is not fun. And it's not easy, but it's necessary. And it's the only way, certainly in the midst of COVID, the only sure way we have a connecting with those whose votes will decide the outcome of these elections. And so we certainly encourage anyone who's interested, you can be a Texan,

you can be outside of the state of Texas, to join us on Monday the 12th on the Million Voter Phone Bank and reach those Texans who, folks, will not only decide whether we have a Democratic majority in the state house, will not only decide the most competitive congressional landscape in Texas in my lifetime, but will also potentially decide whether this election is over on the night of November 3rd and whether Joe Biden becomes the first Democrat to win Texas in 44 years. That's how important these phone calls are. So when you're on these phone calls, when you're talking to voters, and you're talking to people who are either undecided between candidates or uncertain

about whether they'll vote at all, what have you found to be the most persuasive arguments? You know what? This is one of the toughest conversations I have because it's hard for me, conversations I have because it's hard for me, given everything I know and have witnessed and have participated in, to believe that anybody could be undecided at this point. But, you know, I had- But they're out there. They're out there. And I had an experience with a voter. Congresswoman Veronica Escobar organized a series of phone banks that were calling voters along the U.S.-Mexico border. So, you know, communities that are 90, 95% Mexican-American. Voters who may prefer to speak in English, may prefer to speak in Spanish. And I caught one guy who was at work. He was at Circle

K, a convenience store. And in Texas, the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. So this may be his second or third job. And he said, I'm undecided. I don't have time for this shit. You know, I've got to get back to work. I've got a lot going on in my life right now. And that helped me understand how some don't have the luxury to get as engaged as I've been able to get engaged in the news and politics in democracy. And then I have to also acknowledge that as a Mexican American man, I mean, his vote has been actively suppressed for a very long time. And in some ways, we've got to work to help him to overcome that. So that outreach, and you mentioned to me, you're the first call I've ever had from a candidate or a campaign or anything political.

So I will at least think about it. That was important. And then part of why I think it's so critical that Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and their surrogates campaign in Texas is that I am hearing from a lot of Mexican American voters, a lot of black voters in Texas who aren't sure that they're going to vote. And some say, you know, I feel like I'm supposed to vote for the Democrat because I'm black and that's what's expected of me. But, you know, if someone doesn't come and ask for my vote, then I'm not so sure that I will. And as great a job as the Texas Democratic Party and our candidates and volunteers are doing, nothing will beat Joe Biden, the man who will be in the position of public trust that will determine

the future and fate of this country. Nothing will beat him coming to Texas and making that case here. So we are so grateful for everything that he is doing so far, this investment that they're making, the fact that Doug Emhoff was just in the Rio Grande Valley, which is not an easy place to get to, but it is so critically important that we show up in places like McAllen or Harlingen. But to have more of that is just going to improve our chances of winning. These voters know what they can vote against. These voters desperately want something and someone to vote for. Yeah, no, that's been my experience talking to these same voters.

So I follow you on Twitter. I notice you've been laser focused on organizing in Texas. You haven't commented a ton about Trump and the race, which kudos to you. That's a lot more productive what you're doing. But what is your, I've been curious, like, what's your reaction been to the last several weeks of this race from the debate to the COVID diagnosis to the insanity that we're dealing with right now? Yeah, I was, I don't know another word to put on it, the night of, in the morning after that debate, I was just depressed. And not depressed about our chances, just depressed that this is what the country has come to, and that something like that could even take place. And it is a very defeating feeling. I mean, it's hard to motivate yourself to get out there and move and do something. And, you know, I almost thought maybe that's the mad genius of Donald Trump, that it is just such a blizzard of bizarre behavior, just such an awful train wreck that it depresses us from moving and

getting past it or getting through it or getting over it or getting beyond it. And it really wasn't until we had a phone bank that night. And, you know, I always kind of, you know, have to kind of gear up for those phone banks because, you know, not only am I calling strangers, but sometimes, you know, as Beto O'Rourke, you know, people want to give you a piece of their mind and I'm going to receive that for two and a half hours on the phone. But I finished that phone bank and man, I felt so much better. You feel a sense of agency and purpose and you're not a witness. You're not a bystander. This isn't happening to you. You're going to happen to it. You know, you're, you're, you're going to change the dynamic and look, you're, you're one person.

Maybe over the course of that phone bank, you made 115, 120 phone calls, but in the aggregate, when you're joined by four or 500, 600 other people doing it at the same time. And then Kate on our team gives us the rundown of here's how many calls we made. Here's how many voters we talked to. Here's how many commitments we got for Biden or for the Democratic state house candidate, man, that feels so good. And I got to remind myself of that whenever I get down or distressed or on the, on the verge of despair, go out and do some work. And if you can, can find a safe way to knock on doors. I know the, the Biden campaign is going to start doing that. Or if you can join one of these phone banks, or if you can find a safe way to knock on doors, I know the Biden campaign is going to

start doing that. Or if you can join one of these phone banks, or if you can talk to someone in your life and gain a commitment from them to make a plan to vote as soon as early voting starts in their state, then by all means do it. It's the only way, John, I know how to respond to that, because it is just too bizarre. The roid rage of the president these last couple of days, the walking away from literally hundreds of millions of Americans who need help getting through the deadliest pandemic of the last 102 years, the millions of Texans who lost their job, twice as many Texans filed for unemployment in the first two months of this pandemic as did in all of 2019. And man, they are struggling and suffering. The Rio Grande Valley, so many people have died so quickly of COVID that they are stacking the dead bodies in

refrigerated FEMA trailers because there is no more room in the morgues and the funeral homes. Donald Trump walked away from each and every single one of them, everyone who needs our government to come through for us at this moment. And I can't control that. And I don't know the effective response in real time, except to make sure he is not our president on the 21st of January 2021. I said the same exact thing the day after the debate to our staff is that like his bet is that you will be so disgusted with politics that you will just tune out and stay home. And we have to remember that we have the power to change that, that we have agency in the outcome of this race, that we don't have to let him have the last word by making us so disgusted about politics that we stay home because we have the power to change it by going to vote and volunteering and making those phone calls. On that note, if people want to help, if people want to be part of the Million Voter Phone Bank on Monday, October 12th, they want to help Powered by People, what should they do?

Where should they go? So the website is poweredbypeople.org. It's spelled a little funny. It's powered and then X people, poweredXpeople.org. You go there, you can sign up for any number of shifts on the Million Voter Phone Bank. You can sign up for the shift with Willie Nelson, with Oprah Winfrey, with Andrew Yang, with Julian Castro, with Stacey Abrams, with Bernie Sanders, all of these great people who understand how important Texas is for the future of our country. You can get on the phones with them. So it's poweredbypeople.org. And we would love to have you making phone calls with us on Monday. Outstanding. Beto O'Rourke, thank you so much for coming back to PSA. And thanks for all the wonderful work you're doing and good luck out there.

Thank you, man. Thanks for having me on. And thank you for what you all are doing. Thanks to Beto for joining. And, you know, after listening to him talk about how important it is to flip the Texas state legislature, we're making a big addition to Fuck Jerry. We're going to add Texas. As Beto mentioned, to flip the Texas house, Democrats need to just flip nine Republican seats and not lose any Democrats. And they can do it entirely with districts that Beto won in 2018. So to support the most flippable Texas house seats,

we're working with future now fund to ensure that your contributions are spent in a way that can support as many candidates as possible. And so you can go to votesaveamerica.com slash fuck jerry and uh and donate today also if you haven't made your fly joke by now on twitter or social media it's it's like 12 hours too late just don't do it that's just a you know a psa for everybody out there uh what about the title do we want a fly title for this, guys? Find out. Let's tag. Find out what we decide.

Bye, everyone. Bye. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited

by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Quinn Lewis, Brian Semmel, Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.