Pod Save America - “Mitch McConnell does lines."

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

Joe Biden takes new action to fight gun crime, the Trump family may soon face accountability for a bunch of other crimes, and the Atlantic’s Mark Leibovich is here to talk about how Official Washington has changed since the last time he skewered the city in his New York Times bestseller, This Town.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Levitt. I'm Tommy Vitor. On today's show, Joe Biden takes new action to fight gun crime. The Trump family may soon face accountability for a bunch of other crimes. And The Atlantic's Mark Leibovich is here to talk about how official Washington has changed since the last time he skewered the city in his New York Times bestseller, This Town. But first, check out this week's Offline, where I talk to Twitter co-founder and former CEO Ev Williams about the platform's early years, what went wrong, how to fix it, what the fuck's going on with Elon Musk, and whether Donald Trump should get a second chance.

Also, check out the latest episode of America Dissected, where co-founder and executive director of the Detroit Black Community Food Security Network, Malik Yakini, joins Abdul to discuss food insecurity, the consequences of the way we produce food, and how this shapes who gets healthy, accessible, affordable food and who doesn't. New episodes of Offline drop every Sunday, and America Dissected drops every Tuesday. All right, let's get to the news. President Biden took action to fight the rising epidemic of gun violence today by announcing new regulations on ghost guns, weapons that are assembled from parts you order online, announcing new regulations on ghost guns, weapons that are assembled from parts you order online,

and nominating Steve Dettelbach, a former U.S. attorney from Ohio, to run the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which hasn't had a director since 2015. Here's Biden at the White House today speaking about the new actions. The NRA called this rule, I'm about to announce extreme, extreme. But let me ask you, is it extreme to protect police officers, extreme to protect our children, extreme to keep guns out of the hands of people who couldn't even pass a background check? Look, the idea that someone on a terrorist list could purchase one of these guns is extreme's extreme. It isn't extreme. Just basic common sense. So, Tommy, there was a story in Politico just Friday about how gun control advocates, among them Senator Chris Murphy, have been frustrated with the Biden administration for not doing more on the issue. How big of a deal are these steps? And is there anything

else left for Biden to do on guns without Congress? I mean, I suspect that even the Biden team in the Biden White House would say that in the this is a small step in the broader effort to reduce gun violence in this country and to get guns off the streets. But in terms of what the Chris Murphy wish list was, I mean, he got a new ATF nominee. He got regulations to crack down on ghost guns. It sounds like some outside activists want the issue of gun violence to be handled by some sort of czar, some sort of leader of a task force inside the White House and not handled through the Domestic Policy Council. But so, you know, two out of three parts of that wish list were handled today, seemingly. Yeah. And it does seem like, again, legislation is going to be the

most meaningful action we can take and can't pass legislation without either 60 Democratic votes or 51 Democratic senators who are willing to get rid of the filibuster. So there we are again, no matter how much the Biden administration talks about it, fights, does whatever. Yeah, that's right. Hit the nail on the head there. That's it. It's like Chris, even Chris Murphy himself said that he was on the fence about whether or not a kind of coordinator type position was needed in the White House for a while and now thinks it's necessary. But it is like one of those conversations you have a million times, which is like, oh, there needs to be a czar for this

and a czar for that. I don't know what these czars are supposed to be doing. Czars are helpful. They bring focus to an issue. They help with organization stuff. But again, it is a pretty small step. Yeah. I'm not against a czar. No, of course. We've talked before about how crime is one of the big issues Republicans will be running on in the midterms. It's also one of the top issues on voters' minds. Lovett, do you think Democrats should respond by talking about common sense gun control and hitting Republicans for blocking any action to reduce gun violence? No, I think cowering in fear

of the issue and trying to change the subject has been going really well. Yeah, look, we have to talk about it. I think that Republicans have this giant megaphone where they've been telling a basically false story that this is like a Biden crime wave or it's a Democratic city crime wave. Neither of those statements is true. Gun violence began rising and crime began rising during the pandemic. Gun violence and deaths are just as prevalent in red states as they are in blue cities. And deaths are just as prevalent in red states as they are in blue cities. In fact, you are much more likely to be murdered if you live in the reddest of red states than the bluest of blue states. So I think we have to talk about it. We have to make an argument.

We have to make an argument about guns. We have to make an argument about public safety and do it on our own terms. Yeah. Yeah. Murder rates were an average of 40% higher in 2020 in the 25 states that Trump carried in the last election. Sorry. And just one other thing I would add, too, is I do think, you know, we don't talk enough about guns and the roles they play in suicide. And I do think that's a place where, again, talking about the hopelessness a lot of people have felt, especially during the pandemic and after, and making that a big part of this conversation is really important too. You know, gun violence is often, I think we focus on some of the most egregious and violent mass shootings. Those are

terrible. They are a scourge on our society. They are a result of a failure on every possible level. But at the same time, the most likely way a person is going to die with a gun, it is by their own doing. And I think that sometimes is lost as well. Tell me, what do you think about the politics of this issue? I saw, you know, Chuck Grassley put out a statement as soon as Biden had this announcement today saying, you know, it's not it's not guns that are the problem. It's the defunding the police and the Biden crime wave that are hitting all these cities. You know, what do you think Democrats should how should respond to this? Yeah, I mean, I think we've seen all kinds of evidence that Republicans are going

to run on crime. I mean, we're even seeing it here in liberal Los Angeles, where the mayoral race is currently focused on crime and murder rates in the city and a whole set of associated issues. So yeah, I mean, I would like to see Democrats go on offense on the issue. We just can't be constantly explaining what we are not for. We have to talk about what we would do to make people safer. If you look at 2021 Pew polling, 53% of Americans think gun laws should be stricter than they currently are. You can take smaller slices of the gun issue, like support for expanded background checks, support for banning high capacity magazines or banning assault rifles and get even bigger majorities in support of those issues. And there are two policies in that

people that Republicans support, a majority of Republicans support. One is preventing those with mental illnesses from buying guns. And the second is subjecting private gun sales and gun show sales to background checks. So the point is, you can find ways to make this a wedge issue that puts Republicans on the defensive and that makes them own the increase in violent crime, because obviously people wouldn't be getting shot as often if their streets weren't flooded with guns. It's a huge problem. We've known this for a long time. There's this woman who wrote an article called How to Murder Your Husband. And then she is currently on trial for murdering her husband.

But one of the steps she took was trying to make a ghost gun so that the gun couldn't be traceable. Unfortunately, she did order it on eBay, which sort of back backfired, ironically, no pun intended on her. But she did claim she just bought that for research. Oh, my God. I mean, I don't know where Republicans are on this ghost gun issue, but it feels like you could put together a pretty scary ad about how a terrorist could assemble a ghost gun while Republican member Jim Jordan, I don't know who, opposed it. I mean, that feels like a pretty easy way to make this, you know, hit home for people. Again, this regulation that Biden announced today, to go back to Lovett's anecdote, would make, in case you weren't stupid enough to buy your ghost gun on eBay, they would make this traceable. This is what Republicans are against.

Purely making the purchase of ghost guns traceable. I mean, look, I think it's very easy for Democrats to say, at a time when gun crime is on the rise, Republicans want to make it easier for you to get guns. It's for hunting, John. They don't want to hold bad cops accountable, and they don't want to give good cops the support they need to keep our community safe. You don't want these deer knowing where this gun is from.

And Democrats in a bunch of races in 2020 made this point, even as the debate around defunding the police was going on. Raphael Warnock accused his opponent in that race in Georgia of, so you're the one who actually voted to defund the police. I want to hold bad cops accountable. I want to give good cops the funding they need. And by the way, you're going to make it easier for murderers to get guns. Like it's a pretty simple message for Democrats, I think. Just one other one other fact, which is she also tried to collect on at least 10 insurance policies. That seems like a lot. I didn't think she did a good job. Go for like two. It's just me. Does ATF seem to be one of those old timey agencies that just has a weird basket of issues like alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives?

How do they go together other than don't do all of that at the same time? The original name of the agency was called the Don't Threaten Us With a Good Time Agency. I was going to say, yeah, it started off as vices and then they added explosives. And I'm like, oh, well.

All right, speaking of crime, the New York Times reported over the weekend that the January 6th committee has concluded that they have enough evidence to make a criminal referral to the Justice Department for Donald Trump's role in obstructing the certification

of the 2020 presidential election. The only catch? Some members and staff are reportedly reluctant to send a referral because it may look too political. And they also argue that a referral will ultimately have no bearing on whether Merrick Garland decides to charge Trump. Meanwhile, two other January 6 developments we learned about over the last few days. Stop the Steal organizer Ali Alexander has

agreed to cooperate with the Justice Department's criminal investigation into January 6th. And the committee has a text from Don Jr. to Mark Meadows two days after the election that says, quote, It's very simple. We have multiple paths. We control them all. We either have a vote we control and we win or it gets kicked to Congress on January 6th. All right. So let's start with the 1-6 committee. Does the reluctance of some committee members to send a criminal referral make any sense substantively or politically? Lovett, you want to take this one? Yeah, I'll make three points on this. Point number one, hey, stop thinking so hard.

And stop assuming the context of Trump's criminality. If this was just a normal committee that was doing its investigation and over the course of its work, it uncovered crimes, it would say, oh my goodness, we've discovered crimes here. In our work of trying to find out what happened in some industry or some part of the government, we've uncovered some issue that leads to us to believe there are crimes here. We better tell the Department of Justice because that's our responsibility. That's it. It's as simple as that. Two, stop worrying so much about what people who act entirely in bad faith will do when you tell the truth. Stop worrying so much about that. Legitimacy isn't something bestowed by God from above, and it's not going to be given to you by Fox News. Legitimacy is something you create by your conduct. Or you get from David Gergen in agreement. Sure. Or you can maybe get some in agreement with a cup of coffee.

David Gergen on the Morning Joe set with the legitimacy. He will give you legitimacy. And that's it. I'll just make two points. I will add one, which is one way to ensure that the press will frame a criminal referral as politically motivated is telling the press that you're worried a criminal referral will be framed as politically motivated. Shut the fuck up. Stop talking to the reporters. I remembered my third point. Hey, you know what's a great way to totally fuck up how all talking to the reporters. I remembered my third point.

Hey, you know what's a great way to totally fuck up how all your information will be received? Introduce the idea that the most important question is whether or not you include a criminal referral. Just lay it all out there. Whether you do the referral or not is ultimately a sideshow. The most important thing are the facts and the information you'll be sharing with the country, especially if some of it is new and apparently some of it will be new. Why introduce this whole debate about will they or won't they on a criminal referral? That was the third point. So obviously Trump and his allies are going to politicize whatever you do or say anyway. So stop, think, start. If you find

evidence of a crime, send a referral, make the case in a way that is concise and lay it out in a letter or however you want to do it. The weird thing about this whole issue is that apparently the January 6th committee is mad that only one of their four contempt referrals to the Department of Justice have been charged, the Steve Bannon contempt referral. So they're mad at DOJ for not acting, but then worried about sending them a letter asking them to act. It makes no sense. I also just like to use this moment to point out again that Stephen Miller sued to block the committee from gaining access to his phone records because he's still on his family plan. And he said it was an invasion of their privacy. I just think that is endlessly funny. Thank you for bringing that up because

that news was a couple of weeks old and we have not talked about that on this podcast yet, which is the family plan. Shame on us. Shame on us. You know, we should say on this story. So the only congressperson who's gone on the record of being sort of wishy-washy in this is Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat on the committee, a representative from California. Liz Cheney was asked about this story over the weekend, and she said there is no disagreement on the committee. And then she also said, by the way, it's absolutely clear that Trump and a number of people around him knew what they were doing was unlawful and they did it anyway. So that's what Cheney's saying. And even in the timespiece that explored this question about this debate inside the committee, a bunch of members said, we haven't

even talked about this yet. They haven't even sat around a table and had this conversation yet. So this all felt like this got a little more public too soon in a really strange way. Don't return the calls. Reporter calls you. Don't return the calls. Don't return the email. John, we're journalists now. I don't appreciate that.

All right? Light is the best disinfectant. Democracy dies in the dark, John. Tommy, how big of a deal do you think the Ali Alexander and Don Jr. stories are? Hard to tell. With Ali Alexander, I mean, he has told investigators that he communicated with some House Republicans. I think we knew about this because they talked about it on live streams and things. But it's like Paul Gosar, Mo Brooks, Andy Biggs, a lot of Arizona represented there.

And he also communicated with Kimberly Guilfoyle. But I think the bigger question is he handed over thousands of records and sat for hours of testimony. Depends on what he said. The Don Jr. piece of this is particularly amazing. I mean, the texts from Don Jr. were sent on November 5th. They show that he was focused on overturning the election before the votes were even counted, before the networks had called the election for Joe Biden. Don Jr.'s lawyer is saying, look, he was just forwarding along an email. Classic case of just forwarding along an email. Classic case of just forwarding along the coup plan without reading it. But the message from Don that preceded the forward said, quote, this is what we need to do.

Please read it and please get it to everyone that needs to see it because I'm not sure we're doing it. So, you know, not a lot of wiggle room there for Don. So, yeah, I mean, look, the end of the day, like the president's idiot son is texting the White House chief of staff, all this stuff. He's also saying fire Fauci, fire the FBI director, put Rick Grinnell, the Twitter troll that became head of the nation's intelligence community in charge of the FBI, name a special prosecutor. So I don't know. Trump's kids are like deep in this shit and it's pretty disturbing. I will say the same day that Don Jr. sent those texts to Meadows, he tweeted that the 2024 GOP hopefuls weren't doing enough to help Trump steal the election. Which I believe they also texted. It was all happening in the open.

It was all happening in the open. I will say two points about this. One, Mark Meadows, he must just seize up every time he gets a fucking text. His texts are terrible. That's what we've learned. He has terrible texts. Terrible texts. Terrible texts. Two, yeah, Don Jr.'s lawyer pushed back, as Tommy said, by saying he was just forwarding on the plan. And I love that.

Like, yeah, man, we don't think Don Jr. came up with the fucking plan. We don't think he's ever come up. Yeah, he came up with the legal framework for a coup. Him and Eric. Yeah, we know he didn't crack it. We know that someone else is giving him the information. That is not exculpatory. Still a crime.

We were also reminded this weekend that the Trump family's corruption extends well beyond stealing elections. The New York Times reports that six months after leaving the White House, our old pal Jared Kushner got himself a $2 billion investment from the Saudi royal family's sovereign wealth fund. Despite objections from the fund's advisors, they were ultimately then overruled by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman himself. Tommy, Jared Kushner, Saudi Arabia, this story is just right in your wheelhouse. You want to talk about why this might present a bit of an ethical issue? Yeah, I just want to walk everybody through this for one second. So remember that Jared Kushner got to the White House and decided that he was going to become the shadow secretary of state, despite having no experience doing anything in foreign

policy or really anything else in life. He had a failed real estate business and a failed magazine. The Saudis, it's been reported extensively, cultivated relationship with Jared before Trump even took office because they knew he was fucking clueless and he was transactional. There are leaked Saudi internal documents that talk about this. So Jared becomes buddies with Mohammed bin Salman, currently the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, but he wasn't then. And they were reportedly like WhatsAppping each other, calling each other. They were thick as thieves. And Jared wouldn't report out any of this to the state department or the NSC. And Jared even helped Mohammed bin Salman get elevated in the Saudi system. He got

him a lunch with Trump. He treated him like a head of state when he wasn't. And then in 2018, when the Saudi government was caught dead to rights for ordering the murder and dismemberment of a journalist named Jamal Khashoggi in their Saudi consulate in Turkey, Jared helped MBS deflect blame, even though he clearly ordered the assassination. So Trump at the time even put out a statement that smeared Jamal Khashoggi after he had been murdered by the Saudi government and defended the Saudis. So Jared was their guy in the White House. It was obvious for four straight years. And then Donald Trump himself went from attacking the Saudis before he got into office to doing

everything they wanted, including shoving through billion dollar arms sales to Saudi Arabia, even when Congress tried to block them. So then what happens six months after leaving the White House, Jared gets a $2 billion investment from a fund controlled by the crown prince, despite the fact that the fund's oversight board had huge issues with it. They cited his inexperience. They cited the fact that the kingdom would be responsible for the bulk of the investment into this fund, that due diligence on the firm's operations found them, quote, unsatisfactory in all aspects, that the fees were too high, that Jared Kushner created a public relations risk

for the government of Saudi Arabia. Imagine that one hanging over your head. And we also know that Mohammed bin Salman also gave a $1 billion investment to Steve Mnookin, the former treasury secretary, who actually knows what he's doing in this space. Jared Kushner has never worked in private equity. Again, he bought a building in Manhattan for $1.8 billion right before the financial crisis and nearly ran his family- He lost money on New York real estate. Into the ground. But Mnookin's firm got a 1% management fee

and Jared's firm got a 1.25% asset management fee. So that means Jared's making $25 million per year just by holding onto this 2 billion from the Saudis for nothing. This is the most brazen corruption I have ever seen in my life. A $2 billion kickback for covering up a murder for a Saudi prince who is a homicidal maniac who chops up journalists with a bone saw. That's Jared Kushner. Smells fishy to me. I love it.

Yeah. Just the meeting when they're like, hey, we looked at these financials. They don't make any sense. He's a fucking moron who has no experience in this space. And also, we'd be the biggest money in this thing. We'd be taking all the risk. We don't really see why you want to do it. He's like, oh, it's a bribe. We got to do it. I said I would do it. So we got to do it. Hey, what do you guys want to do later? You guys want to ride around in Maybachs, maybe kill a couple of journalists? they are by the way jared said he was going to raise 7 billion so far he's raised 2.5 apparently it's all from overseas 2 billion of that is from the saudis four years in the white house jared spent setting up this deal that was the whole game i'm fucking real and they're out there talking about fucking hunter biden that's what they were talking about jared kushner doing this don jr's forwarding coup plans i'm not a jared kushner uh you forwarding coup plans. I'm not a lawyer. Jared Kushner, you know. Look, we know that I'm not a lawyer, all right? That's something we all know.

But I think there are lawyers. They work for Merrick Garland. Somebody looking at this. Maybe when Merrick Garland gets done delicately putting the final touches on the indictment, you know. He's writing it in calligraphy. Melts the wax and puts the feather in the wax and stamps it with the mg yeah and then sends it off with a crow when he finishes with that take a look at this take a look look at this active corruption new york times is crushing

it with these stories they have the kushner story look the new york times the investigative section of new york times is at war is the is is fighting to save our democracy from its op-ed page. That's the fucking situation. Now, you might think that all of this Trump family crime and corruption might send Republican leaders searching for a new standard bearer in 2024. But if Republican voters do nominate Trump again, the party will be right behind them. Here's Mitch McConnell's latest response to Axios' Jonathan Swan's question about supporting Trump and drawing moral red lines. Help me understand this. I watched your speech last year in February on the Senate floor after the second impeachment vote on Donald Trump.

And it was an extraordinary speech. You spoke very powerfully against the most powerful figure in your party, the president. And you said Donald Trump's actions preceding the January 6th insurrection were a, quote, disgraceful dereliction of duty. And that he was practically and morally responsible, morally responsible, your words, for provoking the events of that day. morally responsible, your words, for provoking the events of that day. How do you go from saying that to two weeks later saying you'd absolutely support Donald Trump if he's the Republican nominee in 2024? Well, as a Republican leader of the Senate, it should not be a front page headline that I will support the Republican nominee for president. After you've said that about him, I think it's astonishing.

I think I have an obligation to support the nominee of my party. I'm sure you could find someone who could. So moral red lines, where do you draw them? I'm perfectly comfortable with the way I have conducted my political career and I'd be happy to respond to any specificity you want to apply to the term. What was it? Moral red lines. Moral red line.

Yeah. I'm very comfortable with my moral red line. Now there's someone who is not too concerned with political appearances. That's incredible. What a ridiculous question. I'll put the country after the party. I'll put the party before the country. What are we doing here?

I'm surprised you just didn't say moral red lines. I do not have morality. I never heard the term. It was just immorality. What is that? What? No. He hates me.

He says he wants me to be removed from office, but then I'll support him because I don't care. I don't have any ego in this. I'm a shameless creature. Tommy, do you have anything to say about this i just wanted to play that clip that's that's really why i just wanted to bring this story up that was in that was crazy shout out to jonathan swan for doing a great interview yes the brilliant part of the interview was getting that creep on a stage where he couldn't just walk away. And you could repeat your question at him and ask him over and over and do follow-ups. I do want to say to the American media, shame on you.

We had to import an Australian man to ask our lawmakers tough questions. Shame on you. Yeah, he's taking jobs that Americans used to do. Can we get a Southern accent ripping Mitch McConnell a newconnell a new asshole what about i love john john fantastic he is fantastic in this interview and you know what else what else is amazing about it and it's like it's not like you look at the questions biden gets in these fucking briefings they're like uh mr biden don't you regret everything and he's like actually no i'm proud of my record and this is more like hey i actually am concerned about this help me understand you know and he gave him enough rope to hang himself also the art

unlike my pants the interviewers that have always gotten trump or have done the best job are the ones who throw away the rest of the questions stay on on the one topic, and when they dodge, you just keep going back to it and you go back to it. It doesn't matter if you had a bunch of other topics. Who cares? You got them dead to rights on this one thing. Keep at it.

Extraordinary interview. Make news. Way to go, Tom and Swan. Way to go. But yeah, anyway, Democrats, that's what Mitch McConnell does when you try to ask about political appearances. He's like, I don't fucking care.

I'm trying to win. Swan also asked him at one point, like, you know, will you be holding, if the Republicans take the Senate and there's another Supreme Court opening and Joe Biden's president, will you hold a hearing? And McConnell goes, I won't be answering that question. And Swan's like, what do you mean you won't be? He goes, I won't be answering that question. Next. That's it. Meanwhile, his contempt for the press and for voters it's just it is endless it's boundless contempt for all bottomless and i just think like democrats in a room somewhere being like wait if we see it just the right way we'll have legitimacy oh no

the appearance of politics we can't allow the one six committee might be tainted by politics it's fucking run by liz cheney what are you doing well if we get the words exactly right we just sneak it through and the fox news won't see it they won't notice it send the fucking referral people send the referral all right when we come back we will talk to the atlantics mark leibovich about his new book thank you for your servitude thank you for your servitude. All right. Since we're back in our nation's capital for the first time in a few years, we thought we'd find out what's been going on from the man who quite literally wrote the book on Washington, D.C.

He's the Doyen of this town. The eminence grease of the gridiron. The New York Times bestseller this town he has a new book coming out this july about dc's trump ears called thank you for your servitude and a new job writing for the atlantic welcome back to the pod mark leibovich thank you for having me guys i'm uniquely positioned to tell you exactly what's been going on in washington since i've been working from home like every single other person in Washington for the last two plus years. No, I'm out.

But you've been on Zooms with everyone. No, I'm totally ready to Zoom with everyone. No, I know. You have your weekly Zoom with Tammy and Ed. We do. We get together. It's a private thing, like kind of with the cousins and everything.

So you wrote this town in Obama's second term about how greedy and incestuous Washington had become. What changed during the Trump years? Well, in retrospect, this town sort of reads like a comedy of manners, right? I mean, isn't it funny that so-and-so, this Democrat and this Republican are lobbying together after leaving the Senate and people go to parties and stuff. You know, Donald Trump campaigned on draining the swamp. And, uh, this is sort of a book about, well, first of all, I think this town, I guess if I'm being self congratulatory in some way or whatever, I mean, I think this town was kind of

a book about the swamp that people might've run against. I don't know if it was Trump or whoever, but, uh, Donald Trump perfected the swamp. I mean, he if it was Trump or whoever, but Donald Trump perfected the swamp. I mean, he turned it into a gold-plated hot tub. I mean, everything that, every swampy thing you would ever imagine about Washington came true till the millionth extent under Donald Trump. And, you know, lobbying thrived, I mean, pardons thrived, cronyism thrived. I mean, anything you could imagine happened under the Trump banner. This town was, as you said, it was like a comedy of manners about how people contort themselves to get in the good graces of powerful people. But then a lot of those same kind of games were played over the last five years. But these are

contortions over issues like sabotaging our elections, breaking the law, abject corruption. Were you surprised by how easily certain people were able to adapt to this new reality by playing the same kind of DC games? Yes. I mean, look, this was, I mean, this time was a much more bipartisan book. There was a pox on both your houses vibe to it. The media being one of the houses. I mean, everyone kind of got it. And the comedy of manners was maybe a little gentle in retrospect, maybe a little harsh in retrospect. respect. You know, I tried to hit the right balance. I didn't always succeed. But essentially, it was about the singular kind of bipartisan feudal culture of Washington, D.C. This is a much more, you know, frankly, Republican book because the people who allowed Donald Trump to happen, Donald Trump to get elected, Donald Trump to thrive, Donald Trump to be rehabilitated over and over and over again and continue to be, you know, the most potent force in the Republican Party are largely Republicans.

They're Kevin McCarthy. They're Lindsey Graham. They're, you know, Ron DeSantis. They're Fox News. And this is the view from the Trump Hotel. out Bob Woodward or out Maggie Haberman, these great journalists on White House intrigue, or I'm not trying to out psychoanalyze Trump any more than the psychoanalysts who wrote cover stories for all kinds of magazines about that. I write about the culture of enablement, if you call it that, within the Republican Party that came to define not only the party, but came to define a

big part of Washington and prop up a very dangerous presidency. Of all the Republicans who ultimately bent the knee to Donald Trump, who surprised you the most? That's a great question. I mean, it was a large, it was a lot of people. I mean, first of all, start with the people who ran against him. Okay. I mean, remember some of the absolutely catastrophic rhetoric that Lindsey Graham, that Marco Rubio, that Ted Cruz, Chris Christie even, I mean, less so, but they all hurled at him. I mean, these were things where, I mean, there was a moment, I think maybe in March or April, where Cruz, Rubio, Trump, and Kasich were left. And they were on the debate stage, and it was high dungeon. It was, you are the most corrupt person I have ever seen, Donald Trump. I mean, the nuclear codes.

You are the most morally hideous person. I mean, like, hyperbole, there's so far beyond what you hear, even in a vicious debate, that we are used to. And then the last question, I don't remember who the moderator was. It might have been Chris Wallace. Well, having heard what we've heard tonight, will you all support the nominee of the Republican Party, even if it is Donald Trump? Raise your hand.

And then Rubio, Kasich, Cruz, immediately. Trump, I don't think, I think Trump, the question didn't apply to Trump because he is Trump. But essentially it was like, oh, okay. Now, yes, this might sound a little different. This might sound a little more extreme, but we're basically playing the same game. Whether Trump cares or not, like they need to like think about their viability once Trump loses in 2016, which they all fully expect will happen. They might run a run again. You know, Rubio has announced that he's done with the Senate. He's sick of it. He's done

with it. He drops out. He's dispirited. He is almost in tears that he lowered himself to making dick jokes about the president. And that's why he's leaving the Senate. And like, there are all these pieces while he's blind quotes with the staff. I've never seen him more miserable in his life. He can't wait to leave. And, you know, know we know how the story ends but it didn't it didn't just happen in 16 either it happened after the insurrection like you spent some time with um with kevin mccarthy for uh i think a times piece in in april of 21 um what do you make of that guy what's going on with kevin mcc McCarthy wants to be Speaker of the House. That's it, right?

That's just all he— That is the holy grail. And look, it's, you know, it's as this town as it gets. A person wants a job willing to do whatever it takes to get it. The central dynamic underwriting this entire book is people who know better, who get the joke, who speak one way in private about Donald Trump, who then go on stage or speak publicly or do press conferences about how Donald Trump is the most powerful figure and we revere him and he's the best president ever and he should go on Mount Rushmore and he should win a Nobel Peace Prize. I mean, yeah, these are things

that President Donald Trump literally cared about and And people literally went out and said and Lindsey Graham, who, you know literally weeping his way through john mccain's memorial services and then is on the golf course with donald trump you know within weeks of this um you know he is he will go on the golf course and he knew all of trump's erogenous zones he'd say thank god for reversing barack obama's. And, you know, and then he told me. Just say this to Trump like privately. Yeah, but then he'd tell me, he'd say, you got to be deft about this. And this is on the record. He'd say, you know, Obama drives him crazy.

And so you can't praise him too much because then he'll lose respect for you. And, you know, it was, there was an interview I did with him. Parts of this were in the Times Magazine in, I guess, 2018, 2019, but this was a fuller readout of it in which he, um, yeah, I mean, he basically just sat down and told me how he was playing the game. And he was in South Carolina one day giving a speech, um, to a Republican club somewhere on Greenville. And he was saying, you know, it was after the Kavanaugh things that they, they hate us. They hate our way of life. They hate you. They hate us.

And literally the next day was up in Washington. I think it was either around the State of the Union or Trump was doing some joint session speech. And, you know, he knew that I got the joke. He knew that his colleagues got the joke. He knew that the people in the hallways got the joke. And this book is about the joke. This book is about the space between what Republicans in Washington, by and large in Washington, there are some elsewhere,

how they know better and what they do and what they were willing to do and what they didn't do. It's interesting. I think certainly at the beginning of the Trump era, there was more of a conversation about character. Who would show character in this moment? I think it's actually mattered less because so few did. And now the conversation has been more about how do we change the incentives to make all of these craven and despicable and ambitious people act in a more civilized way. of complicity, whatever it might be. And if you would have said to us six, seven years ago, hey, I got a list of the only people that are going to stand up against fascism in America, it's Liz Cheney, Bill Kristol, and Mitt Romney. I'd be like, what? That's a surprising group of people. I do think we spend a little bit too much time psychologizing some of these people, but I am still interested in what made certain people refuse to go along and certain

people not and i'm curious what you've found okay first of all everyone you just mentioned crystal not really but but certainly liz jenny and mitt romney um were big parts of the book i mean i talked to them spent a fair amount of time with both of them and you know on the question of character um one thing the two of them have in common and then another group like John McCain, um, Larry Hogan, the governor of Maryland, uh, they all have family legacies. Liz's dad, you know, Liz's dad, say what you will about Dick Cheney. I mean, he's a historian.

Liz is a historian. She worked in the Middle East in developing democracies. Mitt Romney's father was, you know, a great personal cost to his political career. A real maverick Republican in the 60s when that was really hard around Vietnam, around civil rights. You know, Mitt Romney, his career, he thought, ended in 2012 as like the flipping Mormon, as he said in that in that Netflix documentary about himself as someone who, you know, flip flopped, who just was seen as opportunistic. And his Senate career gave him a chance to rewrite that ending a little bit. And, you know, I say what you will about Mitt Romney. I mean, he stood on principle.

I think he made a difference. You know, Larry Hogan's father was also a maverick Republican during Watergate. He was the first Republican to vote against, to basically come out against Vietnam on that committee. And he lost his election. So there were a bunch. I mean, there were, but John McCain's family legacy, and he's talked a lot about it. So I think that's one thing they have in common. Combat veterans like Adam Kinzinger, that's another.

There's a bit of a redemption story to all of them, too. Maybe Liz Cheney thinking about her father, Mitt Romney thinking about his legacy after the 2012 election. There would be a little bit of that. There's something like kind of upsetting about that as well. Right. Because there's something about having the power of a name already behind you to give you the ability to tell the truth. And some of these people that are just coming up being afraid to be squashed by the Trump machine. Well, you know, it's funny. Congressman Raskin made that point last week when he was actually interviewing Liz Cheney. There was some kind of discussion around the one six committee. And he asked he said, you know, he said, it's easy for you. You

have you know, you have a name, you have a legacy, you have money. Presumably you can do this, you know, but like Mr. Backbencher from Ohio, he can't do it. He can he just has to, like, go along in order to keep his job and what have you. Yeah, maybe there's something to that. I mean, I am one of these people who believes that that it's never too late to show character. I believe, you know, it drives me nuts when, you know, liberals say, oh, how can you even talk about Liz Cheney after what happened in Iraq? You know, you know, Dick Cheney, you know, is a war criminal. You know, they go to the sort of the circa 20.

There's like a there's a snide like liberals new favorite hero, Liz Cheney. I'm like, Liz Cheney is not anyone's new favorite fucking hero. She just did something right. Oh, you can say you can like I disagree with a ton of Liz cheney's policies still even though he's not afraid to say it not afraid to say even though even though she did the right thing i still i don't think we agree on anything i don't think she's like i don't she doesn't need to be my fucking hero she just did the right thing well it's also just sort of like i'm not looking for republicans to be democrats i'm really not looking to do anything at all. But if there are

few who are able to see and be honest about what we're seeing, there's something to be learned from the fact that these people were able to reject or repel the forces, the pressures that are on all of these Republicans, to which Paul Ryan fell to, to which Kevin McCarthy is always succumbing. I think it would matter more if more of them were able to stand up. Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is, I mean, someone's made this point when people have made this point repeatedly. I mean, is, is Donald Trump still so viable within the Republican party, not to mention like a kingmaker within the Republican party, because so many putative leaders in the party just waved the white flag and didn't bother us, but you know, after 2016 didn't bother to even,

you know, combat him at all, or is, you know, is it, it's a chicken and egg question. Right. Um, but I mean, Liz Cheney has lost, I mean, you know, she's a pariah in that party. I mean, I went out to Wyoming, I guess last summer, maybe a summer ago. I mean, she, her security detail, I mean, remember the secure undisclosed location that Dick Cheney used to hang out in? It was kind of a joke. It's like after 9-11, you just don't know where he is. She pretty close to has a secure undisclosed location out when she's in Wyoming. Like she was home for a week.

It was a district visit. Her public appearances were not publicized. Her secure undisclosed location when I visited with her was in the Dick Cheney federal building in Casper. And to get in there, it was like getting into a prison. I mean, it was like, there were lined, I mean, checkpoints and metal detectors and pat downs and people lining the hallways. Um, and you know, she's, you know, threats are through the roof on her. I mean, her security team is, is large. I mean, it's, it's she has i mean it's stunning what's happened to someone like that but also i mean look i i will always be inspired by character um you know

no matter what the background is and and you know even if it's the bare minimum like look mike pence did the bare minimum it's not nothing bill barr maybe did the bare minimum brad rath i mean whatever we talked about this earlier. I put Raffensperger in a different category. Yeah, and Bill Barr put the, I don't even know, the barest. Right. He was pretty ready to go along right at the end there. Well, Bill Barr goes into the example of you don't get points for removing a nail you put into the side of the barn, you know?

You know, yeah. It's all there. But look, I mean, character matters. I mean, I think that I think we're in agreement on this. And this is a dereliction of character across the board. Here's a non-Trump Republican question that's really important. Do you think it was more annoying

to get COVID from the gridiron or to be at the gridiron? I mean, I can't imagine. imagine i mean i didn't do either i did not i mean i have i didn't go to like there i didn't go to the gridiron therefore i could sort of hesitated no i did not well he's realized he's been in the studio with us well i will say space for an hour now i recently i recently left the new york times after 16 years and um you know we were banned from these dinners. Dean Baquet said, no more correspondence. You guys are above that.

We're totally. Your Twitter policies and you're not attending the gridiron. I will say this. I agreed with that policy. I loved not going to the White House Correspondents Dinner. I would go to after parties. Yeah, we loved seeing you at the after parties. No, the after parties were great.

They were. correspondence dinner i would go to after yeah we love seeing at the after parties no the after parties were great they were no and also in fairness you know in the correspondence dinners i go to before i got a lot of work done like you know you meet people you see people you wouldn't see otherwise blah blah um but i didn't go to the great iron um i guess technically i could have but i'm not a member of the i've never been to the great iron i haven't either so because i'm so pure and above it all i've always been above it all you know of course do you regret your attacks on the white house correspondence dinner given how uh terrible the situation became for the country after it was canceled you know in retrospect i do think about it maybe if donald trump could have you know joked with the media and like we could have all like raised a toast

to the first amendment everything would have been better it's worth thinking about because you know the toast actually i guess the formal toast at the Correspondents' Dinner is, ladies and gentlemen, let's raise a glass to the President of the United States. And we did. And it was like such a reverential moment. It always sucked. Last question.

What are you going to be writing about at the Atlantic? I know you started April 1st. It's April 11th. I've been waiting for a Leibovitch piece. It won't be long. I mean, I've been onboarding. I've been signing up for things. I've been learning policies and everything. We're sort of- How's the health plan?

I picked one today. I don't know yet. I guess I'll let you know. No, I'm going to be covering politics. I'm going to be covering some sports, some Hollywood. I love the magazine. I miss magazine writing. Love the New York Times, but decided I needed a change, and here I am. And the book is Thank You for Your Servitude, and it's out July 1st, I believe. Well, it's available for pre-order now on Amazon. Thank you for your servitude. It is the subtitle is Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission. You want to goose the pre-sales?

You want to give us one little fact, something that hasn't been out there yet? Some little bit of news? You want to goose these numbers? You want to get this thing off the charts? No, it's just an awesome romp of a book. No, I'm not going to do the thing. Top of playbook, maybe? Give us a little something, huh? There is tension between Nancy Pelosi and... No. Let's see.

No, I'm not going to play that game. I'm above it. No, it's a great book. If you like this town, you'll like this, and it's even funnier. It seems like you were close. One little thing. What? Just give us a little nugget. Give us a little punch bowl.

Come on. Just put a little juice in our punch bowl. A little juice in your punch bowl. You know... Come on. No, I'm not playing this game. I could. Let's see.

There is a... No. You talked to Paul Ryan? I did. I talked to Paul Ryan quite a bit, actually. What did he say? What? What did he say?

What did he say? There was the thing about Paul Ryan was talking about like watching January 6th from home and just bursting into tears and just like seeing his old security detail like there and like not knowing what to do and like how did this happen? I didn't see it coming. and like not knowing what to do like how did this happen i didn't see it coming and you know he was he was you know it was very a human moment him describing this um and you know i did sort of wonder like did he wish he could have done more i mean look he and then he and then the next day he went to that fox news board meeting well that was the other thing proceed you could the i vote i

the fox news thing his whole thing was like that that's the kind of lurking thing look paul ryan's a complicated guy he he i know he'd like to think he is well no i i think that paul ryan he left he is not kevin mccarthy whatever i mean maybe it's relative no it's true yeah uh i said when he was leaving i remember pfeiffer and i talked about this i was like paul ryan's gonna leave and as much as we dislike Paul Ryan, he's going to be replaced by someone who's even worse than Paul Ryan. And sure enough. Oh, you think McCarthy's bad. Yeah, way to the end.

I mean, I'm serious. He's not going to last long either. Well, will he get to be Speaker? No, I mean, who was it? There was another Republican. I forgot who it is, but he's named in the book. He said, I think he actually will be Speaker of the House, and it's going to be the most miserable existence you can imagine.

For him, he might last a year. That horror should come to pass. Yeah, it seems almost like a curse by a witch. Like, you will be Speaker of the House. Can you imagine being the Speaker of the House? I mean, first of all, the expectation level, I mean, he's expected to win by however many now. But yeah, it doesn't look like a fun job, but he wants the job.

And he could probably get the Bakersfield Airport named after him if he gets to be speaker. I mean, Bill Thomas has a terminal named after him. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. It's all about Bakersfield. The book is Thank You for Your Servitude. Go pre-order it right now. Mark Leibovich, thanks for joining Pod Save America.

Thank you, guys. You guys are awesome. We'll talk to y'all. We have our show Thursday night at the Anthem so there'll be no Thursday pod with Dan and I. There'll be the Thursday night show and that'll be out Friday and we'll talk to y'all then. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive

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