Pod Save America - On the Ground in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

Tommy flies out to Detroit to talk to Michigan Democratic Senate nominee Abdul El-Sayed, asking him about his masculinity-forward campaign, the electorate's appetite for candidates who fight back, and how to restore trust in the American healthcare system. But first, Tommy sits down with Jon to talk about the energy he saw on the ground in Michigan, what he heard from voters, and what it'll take for Abdul to win come November.Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends, on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel.You can request a transcript by emailing [e-mail]. Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.

Welcome to POTSave America. I'm John Favro. And I'm Tommy Vitor. Hello from Detroit, Michigan. How you doing? Hello. How's it going there? What are you doing there? It's going great. I came out to see Michigan Senate candidate Abdul Al-Said on the campaign trail interviewed him last night in Detroit after a town hall event. As you guys know, as the listeners know, this is one of the most hotly contested Senate races in the country. The Democrats just had a bruising primary that pitted progressives against the establishment. A-PAC. in Israel versus, you know, with the left's position on a bunch of foreign policy issues. And now Republicans are propping up Mike Rogers, who is, you know, they conservative, you know, national security official from a different era of Republican politics. And this is going to be a knife fight between now and election day. So I want to get out here, get on the ground and see what it looked like.

Nice. How was it? How was, we can get to have doable. Like, how was, what did you see on the ground? It was a very quick trip in the Tommy's fantasy version of this trip. I went to Detroit last night and then event in Lansing today and then tailgated with Abdul before the Michigan football game Saturday. I know, but you'll be surprised to learn that didn't fly with Hannah.

The three-year-old and the two-year-old at home. Yeah, a little bit going on. So it was a quick trip, flew out 6 a.m. Thursday, landed to Detroit. Then we went to Wayne County Community College where Abdul was holding this town hall meeting. So we interviewed a bunch of voters coming in, got to hang out with Abdul for a bit off the record before the event, watched him speak and did, he did a Q&A, a gaggle with press, and then he sat down with us for an interview before he then did a CNN hit. So it was a very long day for him. So here's a quick taste of what we heard, what we saw, what the ground was like, what Abdul's events, what the interview was like. Watch this.

And then John and I are going to talk about impressions from the event, the stakes in the election, kind of the issues that are getting fought and what the path looks like. going forward for Abdul. We are at the Wayne County Community College in Detroit, Michigan. We're here to see Abdul Al-Said. He's doing a, it shouldn't be this hard town hall meeting tour. Democracy is supposed to be about sharing in a conversation about two things. Who are we and who do we want to be? Part of my job is not just to be like, all right, here's what's popular in a poll.

It's not just to do what's popular, it's to make popular what's right. At the end of the day, people are good, really. I think sometimes we're afraid of our own shadow. We assume now people are going to like it. We shouldn't be talking about immigration. Yes, we should. What are you afraid of? Oh, wow.

What did, what some of the voters say? So the voters, well, let me tell you guys first about it. We'll preview the Abdul piece of this just so folks know, and I'll talk about the voters. In the interview, Abdul and I talk about, you know, the difference between the questions he got from voters in the town hall and then the media. You'll be surprised to learn that the vote. voters were not asking about Twitch streamers, but the press corps was. And Hassan Piker, we talked about what Mike Rogers and Ted Cruz had just said about Abdul in Dallas.

I'm sure you saw some person screamed shoot him. We'll play those comments for you guys in a bit. I asked him about kind of like his reflections on 9-11 because we're talking on the 10th and not just kind of like the fear of that day, but being a Muslim in America in that period after. And then I asked him about his image because you and I know him. like our really smart doctor buddy yeah and kind of a nerd and now like there's a lot more bro coming out of that campaign so I asked him about how we thought about that the kind of him kind of getting the Tucker Carlson endorsement we talked about public health this is about 20 minutes

and then worth your time most of the voters we talked to were big Abdul fans not a lot of undecided so we're turning out at this event but two people that really stand up to me one was a woman who you'll hear from in the episode, who actually knew Adi Barkin. He was a friend of ours. It's an unbelievably brave healthcare activist. And she talked about getting arrested with Adi and how Abdul's commitment to Medicare for All and healthcare

was what inspired her to be a part of the campaign. And then I talked to this older gentleman, he's 82 years old and had worked on RFK the Good Ones campaign. Wow. How cool is that? I know. That's very cool.

It was awesome. The best campaign ever. The best campaign ever. And he was just like, the last most inspiring campaign, yeah. I know, before the new generation of RFKs are, you know, kind of the T-moo version that we got now. But, you know, he talked about Abdul being a breath of fresh air and whatever. So here are some conversations I had with voters on the ground in Michigan about the election and about Abdul. Can you tell us your name?

My name's Jane. I'm Zach Farrell. Aidan. Norris Howard. Christine Inles. Offman Ali. Marvin Crawford. Eileen MacDonald.

How did you know, Abdul? Abdul was in my advanced placement calculus class. So you taught Abdul AP calculus? I did. I really did. And he was the most brilliant student. I mean, no offense to rest of my students. Come on. Nobody's good at calculus. He was brilliant at that.

He won the math award. He also won the English Award when he graduated, which was pretty apostonic. I like what he has to say in the manner in which he says it. It's his fresh hair. It's fresh air and we need fresh voices. I'm 82 years old. My last campaign I worked for was Bobby Kennedy, 1968. I feel like him, Bernie, the whole progressive movement, were putting us in the right direction.

Fortunately, what happened with the establishment the last few years, kind of pushed people away from the Democrats. And now people like Abdul are here to save the Democrats again and Bernie and all those progressive movements. Why do you think, well, why do you like Abdul? Is it a message, a policy area? Policy, money out of politics, Medicare for all, and all the policies he's pushing for. I think the message is clear. His fans are big fans of him.

But I think the biggest thing is that when people finally hear him speak, there's a clarity of message. And I think also they like that he's kind of not punking out, so to speak. You know, he's very verbose. He's very gregarious, but at the same time, he's kind of. a bulldog when he wants to be. I love that he's Medicare for all or health care for all. And I love that he wants to stop sending money to Israel. That is one of my biggest things that I love about him. He's one of the first or yeah, one of the first politicians to actually do that.

Personally, it's the health care for all. It's his stance against Iran. Money out of politics is probably the biggest thing. Money out of politics is definitely one of the biggest things. And I appreciate the campaign for all Americans, not just a specific group. I have six grandkids, two great grandkids. I worry about them every single day. The kids are starting to age out of the 26-year-old health cares. And it's not looking too good for a couple of them.

And we shouldn't be like this. This should not be this hard. Every country in the world has health care. We're the only ones that go bankrupt. or the only ones that have to have that ration medications. It's not right, and it's not the way it should be. The young people need something to look forward to in terms of politics. And some of the people right now in Washington should go home.

They've made a contribution. It's time to go home. And let the younger folks, you know, when you were working for Obama, that's how I got connected with you. Amazing. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God.

That's amazing. That's you. And when you walked there, I thought, oh, my God, I know who that is. That's incredible. Oh, my God. What a small world. Yes, indeed. Oh, my God.

You were saying you know some people that are very conservative in your life. And, you know, the classic Republican message of why are we giving stuff to them when I'm getting left behind kind of works. Do you feel like when you send those people an Abdul clip, is he able to break through? Do they hear him? I think it takes a lot more nuance than sending them a clip because they are very used to just seeing a propagandized message and being like, oh, that's just the Democrats doing their thing. And I think it's going to take a lot of things like this, seeing people talking and seeing actual conversations being had with people to realize and understand that it is a message for everybody.

and it is for people like my dad who didn't go to college, and one of the hardest workers I know have the utmost respect for him. And it is important that he sees that. And I don't know that the, like you were talking about, the Love Island clip, that's obviously not going to reach him. And I think something like this is important to see him actually talking to constituents and realizing that this is a Michigan-first, America-first kind of movement

as opposed to a specific group of people that the Republican Party has him convinced that they're the enemy, you know? And this is something that he can see. My dad's like more of a moderate Democrat, and it took a little convincing for him to get behind Abdul. But his biggest thing was getting money out of politics. So he has a sign out.

So that broke through? Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that this, that, that, this is the start of something new in this state in Michigan. Because there has been a dumbing down, a dumbing down of intellect, a dumbing down, and it's down. Dumbing down.

And it can't continue. We can't continue this. We can't continue this. Agreed. You can't get much dumber. That's a good news. We're pretty dumb right now. Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, spiritually sickening, it's emotionally sickening, it's intellectual sickening. And we, we've got to get, it's sad.

I mean, here we are, the United States of America, and here we are in this, this, this, uh, uh, filth that, the stench that is over the whole country. I mean, I mean, I'm 82. I want to see something refreshing before my last days. I want to see us evolve, become enlightened, politically enlightened. And it's, well, I should stop. No, listen, I really, really appreciate it. So it's great to see you. Thank you so much for talking with us. Yeah. Well, you? I'm so glad to meet you, man.

Listen, thank you very much. It's amazing. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for caring enough to turn out and talk to these guys. Yes, indeed. And by the way, if you like seeing us getting out of the office going out on the ground on these reporting trips, please consider becoming a friend of the pod subscriber. You get ad-free episodes. You get bonus content. And you also help us grow our progressive independent media company. And just, Do more stuff like this. Cover more issues.

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life so much easier, saves you a bunch of time. If mailing is taking more time and more money than it should, try Stamps.com free for four weeks and get a welcome kit. Go to Stamps.com slash PSA to get this offer today. That's S-T-A-M-P-S-A-M-P-S-A-Tas-A-Tas-S-A-Tas-S-A. Taxes and Fees Apply. It was great to get out here and, you know, it's fun to watch these guys on YouTube and see the events, but like, I think being there in person just kind of like gives you a different sense. And being there in a period of you can see the campaign going from primary to general election mode and that step up in size and intensity. And kind of watching Abdul guy go from a guy who was a little bit known in Michigan political circles to totally losing his anonymity.

It is just, it is gone now. It is not quite the AOC experience because for her, like winning the primary was winning the general. So she's a national figure right away. But Abdul is close. And also, you know, unfortunately for him, it's backed by $70 million in attack ads that were kind of part of that process. Yeah. Seeing him deal with that was really interesting. I've been wondering about that because, and he, like, he ran for statewide office before, but that was just a totally different level of, like, fame and people knowing who he is. I watched the, preparing for this. I watched the event that you went to, and I watched his speech and his.

And listen to all the questions too. He's, it's just, I'm sure you will talk about this and felt this as well. But man, is it different watching an event and watching the speech versus like what you see and hear from the internet and the media about the race? Yes. Yes. I think, look, we are a dual fans. He's been a friend for a long time. Both of us have donated to the campaign.

So we are biased. But I came away just being like, okay, this guy is so talented. He's a talented communicator. He's a great speaker. And he just kind of, he seems like a fighter, which I think that's the thing we've all been talking about that voters want for this moment. But John, the thing that he has done that I think every campaign consultant would dream of is he has landed on a clear, succinct message, which is money out of politics, money in your pockets,

and Medicare for all to the point where when we were interviewing voters about why they liked Abdul, they were repeating it back to us. And that is the dream. He starts the event by saying. that and then everyone repeats it back to him. Like it's a whole. I also think for everyone's like, well, he's got to, I mean, and we've done this analysis too on this show. Like, he's got to talk about this and he's got to link Mike Rogers to Trump and he's got to be talking about economic stuff and not Gaza and Israel the whole time. And like, he was so on message during that event,

including the questions he was getting. It is, like I would encourage anyone who is doubtful about the race and doesn't, isn't sure, like, just watch an event. Because he, and the comfort that he has and the confidence, which I think is so huge in a candidate, like, this is not someone who seems like he, I mean, first of all, you know, he's memorized his stump, but he is, you can tell it's just, it feels conversational. It feels relevant to people. He's not, like, talking down to folks. He's not, like, doing, like, here's my line on this.

And I actually think he even comes off better in person or at these events. than he does sometimes like on social media or the interviews. Oh, definitely. The goofiness and the sense of humor comes through. Like, so, you know, you've written a million stump speeches, but like politicians don't need your stump speech to be a thing you read verbatim every day. In fact, that's bad. What Abdul did very well last night was kind of like work topical things into his remarks and

make it new and newsy but in the frame. So we talked about the Trump kind of $5,000 dividend proposal from Dallas. And he's like, hey, you're paying like on average $5,600 for Trump's vanity trade war with Canada. He's having a pissing contest with the Prime Minister of Canada. You pay for it. And then he comes back and tries to bribe you for a vote for a little less back. And then he talked about how this was a third time you've been offered a check. He said, remember the Doge dividend. Elon Musk got the Doge dividend. The rest of us are still paying for it. And then he mentioned like the lettuce and the Listeria outbreak. And he said, you're paying for it on the toilet too. So it's like this funny thing.

You talked about the Michigan Western Michigan game. The tour is called it shouldn't be this hard tour. And he talked about this football game that ended where everyone thinks that Western Michigan got robbed. And he was like, man, you can imagine people at Western being like, it should be this hard. That's funny. It's really funny. The jokes were funny. He also, look, again, I asked him about it at the interview,

but he's browing out hard on the stump there. He threatened, he challenged Mike Rogers to a no-pad's Oklahoma drill. But even I noticed that. And like, even when he did that, it didn't come off as like, hey, dude, like it was, it was jokey. Yeah, it was joking.

You know, like, you toned it down a little bit. Yeah, you can tell. Even the, I'd heard him do that cheerleader riff, like Mike Rogers is a cheerleader. But the way he did it was like tongue and cheek and he, you know, it didn't sound like a politician's riff where you're like, and now applaud. Right. Like I just thought he was, I thought it was comfortable. Yeah. So, Abdul's opponent, Mike Rogers, he was not in Michigan this week.

He was in Dallas, Texas for the Trump of Beluza, where he was given a full six minutes and 48 seconds to speak. the guy left the state, a swing state in the middle of a campaign to go do that. Rogers delivered kind of a classic paint by numbers bio speech about his story and himself. John, this line made me laugh really hard. He was kind of trying to tell like a up from your own bootstraps product of the American Dream story, which is great. But the way he phrased it was that the American Dream quote, took me the son of a Michigan shop teacher all the way to be the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Dude, that is the American Dream. I watched the speech again this morning. I was like by myself in my house and he did that line and I laughed out loud to myself. It's that exact line. I was like, where's he going to take this? And then he's like to the House Intelligence Committee. From the factory floor to the chairman of the deep state. That is the American dream.

What are you talking about? That speech was fun. I mean, we can talk about the attacks on Abdul in that speech. But the fact that he has nothing to say, you get six minutes. in front of, it's generous to say, a national audience, because I'm sure not many people were watching at all. Only 2.5 million watched Trump the first night total, and that's like the Fox, that's the normal Fox audience at night. So Trump didn't even break that. But, so I'm sure no one was watching. But you have six minutes in a big speech like this.

Nothing about costs in Michigan, tariffs, the economy, what to do for people. It was literally like he did the 9-11 commemoration. And all he was. talked about was terrorism. It was as if he was giving the speech in the 2002 Senate race. John, I literally wrote down, I feel like I'm watching the RNC in New York in 2004. It was Bush era post-election message. Let's roll a clip of Rogers so folks can see what we're talking about. I know what they're capable of. And I know what happens when America becomes afraid to call evil by its name. September 11th isn't something that we deserve. No matter what Abdul's buddies say.

Abdul's is funding his campaign with money from terrorist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. He wants to represent Palestine. I want to represent Michigan. Maybe that'll work. I mean, it tells you where the campaign's going, which is all fear-mongering, Islamophobia stuff. Yeah, but like the whole, the way he talked about 9-11, it's like, hey, Mike Rogers, and then what happened? Right. Do you have an apology to all the men and women in this country who lost loved ones in the Iraq war and in Afghanistan and in all the years that we have fucked up the Middle East and the world by completely like by just doing the wrong thing, reacting the wrong way after 9-11? Yeah. Did those wars go well, Mike?

Yeah. How did that go? How was your time on the, on the Intel Committee? How was your time? Did you like the Patriot Act? Did that go well, too? Do you think people are happy about that? He's a surveillance state.

Yeah, it seems like Republicans are a little worried about these days. Yeah, Ted Cruz did something similar. So Ted Cruz also hopped in his time machine, went back to 2002, did some post-9-11 fear-mongering. John, let me, tell me if you can figure out what the two Democrats named-checked by Cruz in this clip have in common.

Let's watch. When Mondami says he wants to seize the means of production, he means it. When Abdul al-Sayed says he has a quote, obligation to comply with Sharia law. He means it. Very subtle to link Czoran and Abdul with nothing in common. Also, John, Ted Cruz on the anniversary of Charlie Kirk's assassination, says nothing in response

to two calls to shoot Democrats. I feel like that tells you everything you need to know about his sincerity as a human being and also the Republican Party's commitment to rooting out political violence. Yeah, you could tell that the first one, I think that's a person, I think that's a I think we're maybe even three in the longer clip, but like, you can tell that maybe he doesn't hear the first couple. He definitely hears the last one because there's like almost a pause and he just decides like, well, I can't call that. I couldn't say, don't say that because that would be showing some kind of modicum of courage. Yeah, decency.

Right. Yeah, I don't. I mean, look, the Mamdani stuff is crazy and just blatantly Islamophobia and racism because. because Mumdani's not running in the midterms. He's not on the ticket anywhere. So bringing him up over and over again is just a way to rent up the base. It's just Fox News brain. I mean, we have Foxxon in our office.

They've been talking about some 9-11 families not wanting Zoran to go to Ground Zero to go to the commemoration event. Obviously, those families can feel however they want, but they're also putting on just like hardcore right-wing Republican politicians who are just being Islamophobic, disgraces. And by the way, Zora Mamdani is a Shia Muslim. So bin Laden would call him an infidel and want to kill him to just for the record. But those facts don't matter. I'm sure that distinction matters. They're going to listen to me on this one. Okay, let's just talk big picture on the race. So I like we were saying, like this is what the rest of the race is going to be. It's just going to be naked,

slambophobia. Republicans think this stuff is effective. I don't know. Abdul is trying to counter it by showing other sides of his personality. Like we've talked about the goofy like blues clues video. I asked him about that. He's talking. He's talking. talking about sports. A lot of it is like guilt by association stuff with Hassan Piker, but really like those guilt by association attacks are just Islamophobia. It's like basically they're saying like two Muslims are too much. If J.D. Vance really cared about Hassan Piker's views on Israel, then he would also denounce and cut ties with Tucker Carlson, but he doesn't give a shit. And this is just politics. I think ultimately where Abdul is on this is he thinks we need to be

able to agree disagreeably on foreign policy, including Israel. He disagreed with some of the stuff Hassan said in the past, but he's not going to cut ties with the guy, like, who is a friend for that. He's just going to tell him, I disagree. And I think what's hard here is a lot of Democrats are following Republicans down this path of only focusing on guilt by association. And there's just no other conversation about this race because obviously Hassan said some stupid shit. He apologized, but Abdul didn't say it. And meanwhile, like, we have this really dynamic, exciting candidate that is inspiring. people and yet the conversation online and in the media just gets wrapped around the axle

on this one issue over and over and over again. And you can tell it's just driving Abdul crazy because he's like, I want to talk about health care and grocery prices and all the shit that I hear about on the campaign trail, not this stuff. Yeah, I mean, a few things about this stipulated. I think if Abdul had to do it over again, would not have had Hassan come to Michigan and campaign, right? Like I think that there is a difference between And I still believe we've had Hassan Piker on the show. And even politicians who go on Hassan stream, like, I will still defend that, right? Because you're reaching an audience, whatever else.

Like, the campaigning made it tougher, right? Now, that said, the guilt by association that they're trying to do is guilt by association with someone who has apologized for comments he said were a joke about 9-11. And someone who, you know, they're. like, oh, it's Abdul's best friend and his running mate and stuff like that. It's like, no, Abdul's had a million people campaign with them and Hassan was there like twice, right? And that's it. I also don't think people, normal people give a shit about this. I really don't. I do think that, I mean, and I'm curious what Abdul has told you or like what their polling shows, whatever.

Like, I think his, to the extent he has a challenge and he does have a challenge, it is, do people think that he is too extreme or too progressive or too liberal? Abdul, right? Like, do they think his positions are too far to the left? Do they think he is too is out of the mainstream? And my view on this is, like, watching that event that he did, if he could meet everyone in Michigan, everyone who sees him campaign, everyone who gets contact by the campaign, contact by Abdul, like, has that kind of experience, I think he'll be.

fine. And I think people are going to come away with the view that, like, yeah, he's progressive in all the right ways. And like his slogans, right, money in your pocket, money out of politics, Medicare for all, very popular. And so my concern, I think his, probably the campaign's concern, and their challenge is can, you're not going to be able to reach everyone in a big state like Michigan. And for the people who are just tuning in at the end and are going to vote, which image of Abdul are they going to get? Are they going to see him as this extreme out of step guy with a funny name? Or are they going to see the Abdul that we all see? And so that I imagine that's probably their big challenge. Yeah. I mean, just on the Israel stuff, like I think the vast majority of voters

don't vote based on foreign policy. It's economic issues. It's rage at the establishment. Now, that doesn't mean there are real concerns within parts of the Michigan Jewish community about hasa Piker, past comments, et cetera. So actually, I called down. Andy Levin to talk about all this. He's a former member of Congress. He's from the Levin family, which is like a deep political history in Michigan. He's also Jewish. He was a president of his synagogue.

He tangled with APEC back in the day because he was too progressive. His view was that this is a tempest in the teapot. There was this, you know, in the gaggle Abdul did. He was asked about a letter from 400 Jewish Democrats who now support Mike Rogers. But Andy Levin was saying that he thinks a lot of them are actually Republicans or support him at Romney in 2012 because Obama was too, you know, dangerous on Israel or whatever. So, you know, we'll see. He said to me, ultimately, 1.3% of Michiganders are Jewish.

If there's high turnout, that's like 1.8% of the electorate. But he also thinks that when you combine Muslim and Arab American voters, that's like 3 to 4% of the electorate. So politically speaking, it could offset. But also, Andy's like, in my slack, I have tons of Jewish voters who are just really pumped about the guy. So, you know, maybe Abdul doesn't get 70%, but he gets 40 or 50 or 60, something like that. Potta of America is brought to you by Joe Lee. If you struggle with chronic skin conditions like dryness, sensitivity, breakouts, or scalp issues, you've probably tried a lot of products with ingredients that promise to address them.

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radical. When you talk to his team, the traditional DSCC strategy would be Abdul hangs back, make Rogers the main character, his association with Donald Trump is way more harmful than Abdul's association with anyone else and just roll with that. But the challenge they are having is Abdul is too interesting and too different of a story politically for that to work because the media doesn't give a fuck about Mike Rogers because he just hides in Florida all the time. So they're like trying to get the establishment on board while letting Abdul be himself and not play into this lie that he's a super radical because he's not. But in some markets right now, they're getting outspent four to one with all the outside money. And they're worried about, you know, Elon Musk cutting a $100 million check at any time and dumping even more ads on their head.

So they're just like, you know, that's the challenge right now. Yeah, this is why I and I think he's an excellent reporter and I agree with him a lot. lot, but when Jonathan Martin has been saying recently, like, oh, why is Abdul making this about himself? Why doesn't Democrats just make him, like you said, hang back and make it all about Rogers and, you know, the call's going to come in from the DSCC to, like, knock it off and just do less and all that kind of stuff? It's like, I get that if Abdul is Troy Jackson or Bill Smith. Yeah, right. Maybe even not Troy Jackson because people don't know who Troy Jackson is because he just jumped in, but someone like that, right?

He doesn't have an option of hanging back. He just doesn't. And he's got to do a whole bunch of reassurance for voters that he is an acceptable alternative to the guy they want to vote against who is Mike Rogers because he's too tied to Trump. So you have to do both. You just cannot make it all about Rogers when all this money is going to be spent making Abdul into this monster. Like he's got to push back on that. And he's got to push back on it by just revealing his actual personality. Yes. Yes. It's funny. When I asked him that question about kind of, the 2018 campaign between now. He was like, look, in 2018, I was 32. I'd never run for office before. I had no business running. So I decided like, go big or go home. And then I went home. He's like a funny line in the stump speech. But he was like, look, I, you know, I ran thinking like, okay, these are the things that a politician should be. It's like the serious guy, the doctor, the nerd. And he's like, I am all these things. But like, I'm also like, this is me too. And this is my personality. And I'm just trying to be myself. And like the cornyest shit ever in campaigns is

like let Obama be Obama or let Trump be Trump. But I do think there's an element of truth there that the kind of more layered version of Abdul we're seeing that includes being the broed out, you know, lacrosse captain or whatever is more true to himself. And I think they also think that that kind of message or like the cringy, cheesy shit, the Love Island video, the blues video is a way to get attention and then offset this claim that he's too radical. I also, you know, I asked Andy Levin about the concern that a lot of, you know,

folks should listen to still counting our amazing new polling and data show with Nate Silver and Claire Malone and Gayland-Druke. You knew them as 538. Now they're still counting. Get it on your podcast feed because they talked about the kind of concerns about Abdul's candidacy in a really interesting and compelling way. But Andy Levin wanted to kind of push me on why the traditional approach of moderation is wrong and that progressives are the way to go in this cycle.

Because he was just pointing out that progressives have been winning up and down the ballot in Michigan primaries. It's where all of the energy is. It's where, you know, the only way you will turn out more people and be authentic to yourself if you're Abdul. And he also thinks that this like kind of traditional measurement of extreme versus moderate, it's kind of ridiculous in a moment where like democracy is hanging by a thread and we're in a trade war with Canada that is really hurting Michigan. and Diesel's over $6. So, you know, maybe he's right. Maybe he's wrong.

He's like, my hopium comes from being a union organizer where you're always going against the boss. You should never win. But what we did there is, you know, we rank all our supporters from one to five, like one is a yes, firm yes, a five is a no. And then you count the ones and you subtract 10%. And that's your real level of support. And he's like, that's how I'm approaching every poll going forward because I'm

as skeptical and concerned as you are, but we just got out hustle him. Yeah, and it's also, this is all about how you define progressive and no one is just aprogressive on everything or not or like voters are more open to a more progressive position on health care. They just are. They are less open to a progressive position on crime. Also just the truth. And you could go through every issue like that. And so the challenge is to Andy Levin's question, like, first of all, you can't completely. just reinvent yourself as someone new in a general election. You have your past positions. And running away from all those positions is arguably more damaging than keeping them and explaining why you feel the way you do. Right. So that's like number one. And number two, like the everlasting challenge for Democrats is all of the energy and excitement in terms of what kind of candidates and like how they inspire and how they talk about politics is on the left. And I might be more in more agreement with a lot of center left politicians on a host of

issues. Some are more progressive. But like their challenge is they're not, if you just give the stump speech and read the stage directions and are boring, it could work. It has worked in a ton of places, right? But like, I don't know. If you're trying to capture voters in a primary, like you've just got to be, you've got to have something to say real about the problems that people are facing and not just sound like you're reading it from a fucking poll. And for people who are like really concerned about money in politics and really concerned about health care and haven't seen and like affordable care act passed and they're still having trouble with costs, healthcare costs, they want to hear something. What you're going to do about that? And like that's, I think that's,

that's why you're seeing all this energy. Yeah, listen, I, you know, I don't know if this progressive case is the right one or if it means he's more likely to win. But just to articulate it more, I think you said it well, like voters have never hated the establishment more. They have never had less trust in their government. So if you sell them the same old shit, the same old talking points, they're not going to believe you. If you at least come off as a fighter, if you at least come off like you care and you understand the issues and you're not 150 years old, they like that.

One thing I didn't get to ask Abdul about John was kind of how his Medicare for all position has evolved. You dug into this in some depth. Can you just like give voters kind of a sense of how he's gotten seemingly more flexible on this? Yeah. So the big challenge with Medicare for all is it pulls well. And then, you know, progressives will say it pulls well. It's great.

Everyone, you know, what's the problem from the centrist and all that? And as we all saw who we have to live, we have to live through 20 fucking primary debates about this where everyone litigated the Medicare for all positions in the presidential primary in 2020. Once you tell people that it means getting rid of private insurance. the support goes down. Once you tell people the cost and that you cannot pay for Medicare for all, a real single-payer system by just raising taxes on wealthy, support goes down. And, you know, the Medicare for all supporters will say, well, yes, maybe middle-class folks will have to pay a little bit higher taxes, but you're paying so much less in premiums and

deductibles that it all works out. Sure, absolutely. But these are the attacks that the Medicare for all is going to face. And one thing. one thing in the Democratic primary in 2020 that candidates like Pete Buttigieg did is they tried to split the difference. And basically, Pete's plan was Medicare for all who want it, meaning everyone can enroll in Medicare tomorrow after the plan passes. But if you really, really like your private health insurance, you can keep your private health insurance. And you do not have to go into Medicare for All.

Now, even Bernie's plan, right, on Medicare for All plan, did eliminate private insurance. completely. But even that plan did it over a set of years, right? So it wasn't all at once. Because if you eliminate private insurance tomorrow after a plan passed, bad things would happen. One six of the economy. It would be a big change. It's a rough transition to do it right away. So even Bernie knew that it was like a four-year window or whatever it was. So Abdul, during the course of his primaries, he basically, his plan is more like Pete's plan was in the 2020 primary. I think that is a great thing. because I think it also sends a signal for 2028 in the primary that we are not going to do another primary in 20208 where if you don't have Bernie's exact Medicare for all plan that you are, you know, an apostate and you like and like you shouldn't be listened to and you're just a neolib shill. Like I think if the goal is, yes, we want every single American to have insurance and every single American not to go bankrupt and to pay just only what they can to see a doctor and when they get sick.

then there's a whole bunch of different ways to get there. And Abdul has one way, and he's showing flexibility. And I think that is great. And if he wins the election, Donald Trump is going to be president for two more years, at least. And then even then with a Democrat in 2028, we'll still have to build support for Medicare for all. So we should not attack him for a lack of purity between now and then we've got to build support for this. The other thing I wanted to ask him about but didn't get a chance to you was artificial intelligence. But someone in the audience asked about it.

And he gave a very thoughtful answer that I'm going to, we're actually going to put into the episode because it was just worth hearing. It was nice hearing someone who is young and thoughtful. And again, it was like the example of his political skill, because he was able to explain the hugging face attack with open AI in a way that was really short and sweet and had people in the audience gasping because they had never heard it before. But it wasn't too confusing for them. The question of AI is the existential question of our time. and it's not the technology per se. It's the incentives driving the technology, which are exceedingly dangerous.

Because right now it's all being driven by a few billionaires out in Silicon Valley. AI should not be used to do certain things like take your job or provide you health care or deny your health care or fire a weapon. We need an international treaty that governs the use of compute so that we understand how these things are being used, if you're going to build a data center,

the following things have to be true. Number one, all union labor. Number two, that you cannot touch our water. Number three, that you cannot raise our electricity rates. Number four, that you need to improve our electricity reliability, not just keep it where it is. Number five, there needs to be a very clearly defined community benefits agreement that's negotiated in good faith in public, not behind an NDA.

Until we get that, terms of engagement at the federal level, I think there need to be state and local moratoria on data center construction. We need regulation. We needed it yesterday. So the best we might be able to get is tomorrow. But we need regulation. We need it now. When I heard him give that answer, and this goes back to what you were saying a couple of minutes ago about like why people like progressives and younger people and anti-establishment candidates. Because, so I talked to, I interviewed Seth Moulton right before that primary, and he was hitting Marky on AI because Marky was like, I don't know, whatever apps are on my phone.

So then I like, and I dug in with Seth on, well, what would you do? What would the regulations be? And look, I don't want to criticize him too much for this because it was a short interview and we couldn't go on forever and we could have talked for an hour about it. But he like, he didn't give much on like the details of how to safeguard it, what to do, all this. It was like pretty top line. And I was like, yeah, okay.

Well, I thought you were supposed to be like the younger, I know more about this kind of stuff guy. And maybe he does, again, but we didn't get it in the interview. Abdul, who is supposed to be the like, you know, oh, he's a crazy progressive and he just has slogans like Medicare for all. He gave one of the most thoughtful answers about AI that I have heard. And he didn't just say like, ban it, done, paused. He was like, or like ban data centers forever. He talked about all the dangers, all the problems out there. And then he was like, we would build data centers if these conditions are met.

AI, it's not the technology, it's the people controlling the technology. I thought it was just great. And he sounded thoughtful. He didn't sound too extreme. It was just, you could tell he studied the issues and care about it. Yeah, someone smarter than me could tell me if it was bad policy or a bad answer substantively, but it was clear that he had thought deeply about it and he had something to say. And it wasn't just kind of whatever, you know, the latest polling memo said was the most potent attack against the data center industry or whatever.

It was like a real plan. So look, going forward on the campaign, I try to ask his team, like, what's it look like, you know, from now until election day? They don't know really, like, I think they changed the location of the town hall in Detroit, like a couple days before, right? So they're just kind of flying by the seat of their pants. They said they're just going to outwork Rogers. That will probably mean tons of town halls. But it also means there's also a diminishing return to events at this point in the campaign because you get your supporters and you don't get undecided. So they're trying to figure out, like, media places to go on.

to reach different voters. But they really, I think, just need money and they need the progressives and the establishment to just get on board with this campaign and go all in. Because, like, we don't just have an opportunity to, like, hold a seat in Michigan here. We have an opportunity to elect someone who is young and exciting and a great communicator and is brilliant, like a literal road scholar with big ideas who cares deeply about the issues. And I think we should just everyone just be excited about that. Stop letting Fox News kind of drive the conversation about this election.

That is a that is the Republican propaganda wing of the party. Fuck them. Let's all like let's be a little more hopeful, optimistic here about what the future could look like. And again, like, I don't want to like tell people what to do, but if you are still doubting Abdul or you're not sure about the race or you're sort of rolling your eyes about all this or you're on the other side of the primary, like just watch an event. Watch the event that you went to last night and see what you think. And I feel pretty confident that people who listen to this show and a lot of other people will find it maybe surprising, compelling all of the above.

And yeah, it's I'm just wondering about the money thing. I'm sure they, I'm sure they're going to get out spent and need money. Listen, if you watch him and you don't, and his interviews on foreign policy or Israel or about Hassan Piker are a bridge too far for you, that's totally fine. Don't endorse. Don't support them. That's okay. I'm just like what I want from people is to do what you said, which is watch a full event. Like let's let's let this election be about something more than just a controversy that Fox News is doing everything they can to keep in the news because they think it's politically potent. Let's talk about the things that we really care about in the bigger picture in this election. Okay. So with that, here's my conversation with Michigan Senate candidate Abdul al-Said. Pod Save America is brought to by Neutrifle. Fall is a natural time to get back into a routine. Maybe you're getting back to the gym, eating a little healthier, or just being more consistent with the things that make you feel your best. If your hair could use some attention, this follows a great time to rethink how you're supporting it. Luckily, there's Nutraful. Nutrival is the number one dermatologist

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Thanks for coming to Detroit. It's great to be here. I mean, you're in Detroit and Mike Rogers in Dallas. Who would have thought? So it's 820. It's probably your 13th hour of a very long day. Yeah, that's actually the tracks. We're at the sprint part that's also at the end of a marathon of a campaign.

Yeah, so the primary is a marathon. And then you're like, you won. Okay, go sprint five miles. Go as fast as you can. It's going to be exponentially worse. So you just did a town hall meeting here in Detroit. You got asked about food inspections, like Listeria outbreaks, Doge, whether Democrats are going to actually fight for stuff, artificial intelligence, and public safety.

And then the work you did to keep Wayne County prison open during COVID, they needed to press avail. And it was very different. It was like Israel, you know, Twitch streamers, et cetera. Like, those town hall questions. Are they representative of what you're hearing at town? on all events. It felt very different than the kind of national media narrative. That is very well put because when I travel to state and, you know, we don't just stick

around here in Detroit. We go all over the state. It's a big state. You can be in Detroit. You can be in Escanaba. And people literally use the same words in asking the same question. And it's almost always about something having to do with affordability, something having to do with government not working for them, something having to do with the existential dread of a day. Data Center or AI or healthcare. Those are all the issues you get. And then, you know, you go on to some media platform hoping to communicate about the issues of the day and you get some question about a Twitch streamer in California.

It's not to say that people who make media in California are doing anything wrong. But that is to say that they are not the subject of a race for Senate here in Michigan. Well, that was the thing that was to drive Obama crazy because when you are campaigning, you're having like daily focus groups at all times and you have like this visceral sense of what voters actually care about and then you do the media scrum and it's just so divorced from it it could be frustrating you know maybe it's just because you know i i host famously hosted a podcast and sure did and a lot of what i tried to talk about on the podcast were the issues of the moment having to do with this issue of health of course that was a subject to podcast but i actually believe that the

media is important i believe that the work that you all do that that the press does that CNN and MS now do, maybe Fox News sometimes, that it serves a critical role in our democracy. And what frustrates me is that maybe I'm a romantic about how this is supposed to work, but I'm like, guys, do the job. And you wonder why a lot of these traditional media outlets are hemorrhaging viewers or readers as because people don't see themselves reflected in the conversation that's being had. And so in some respects, I remember this moment where there was a crossover between a very famous political reporter and the Super Bowl.

And I was like, oh, wait, it's because the medium with which we consume politics has become the medium in which we consume sport, which means that the political conversation has been moved out of a way of actually informing people about what. what's happening in our civics into coverage for people who have the time and space to think about politics like it's a sport, but here's the problem. In politics, winners and losers really matter. It's not that team versus this team or this issue of the day that keeps you clicking. When people like Mike Rogers or Donald Trump win,

like the people lose. And if you're not actually talking about it at that level, what's the point of doing this? And I just, I kind of want the media to be better. Yeah, no, I hear you. Your opponent was in Dallas, Texas tonight speaking at like this Trump-a-Paloosa thing. He said a bunch of stuff. I mean, it wasn't a very long speech.

He seems like he went there for like five minutes maybe. Well, the more important reason he went there happened behind closed doors to Donald Trump. To talk to Daddy Trump. He said, you want to represent Palestine. He said, I want to represent Michigan. You know, he said you sanitized extremism. He called you a con man. He said, I'm a lawman.

But, I mean, I'm waiting to hear with the lawman has to say about, I guess, when Ted Cruz was speaking about you, someone in the audience screamed, shoot him or kill him, something to that effect? Like, what do you think it says about our politics, the Republican Party,

that that kind of thing is happening in such a public venue? And by the way, Ted Cruz is kind of like chortling about it, right? And he's not like condemning it from stage. You know, it kind of goes back to that point

we just talked about that this is real life. And we are real people. And all of us want to get home safely. And when you think about politics as being more about beating the other guy, it's easy to cross that line rather than thinking about politics about actually delivering for people. And, you know, if Ted Cruz was out there or Mike Rogers was out there or Donald Trump was out there having a conversation about like, here's this very serious things that we need to do

to actually try to bring down the price of groceries for people or try to bring down the price of gas for people or trying to make sure that people can see a doctor without losing their livelihood on top of possibly losing their life, I think you'd have a very different conversation, but that's not how they do politics. It's like this winner take all culture war through politics. And it's very easy once you start to demonize somebody to the level at which you literally call them evil, which is what J.D. Vance called me, what, two weeks ago, that you then get from there to a permission structure that allows you to call for violence against somebody. Right. And politics, democracy, is supposed to be the process by which we solve our disagreements peacefully.

And it's been very clear they've been running against democracy for a very long time. And this becomes a logical outcome. And this also happened on the day the anniversary of Charlie Kirk getting assassinated, which was a horrible thing that everyone condemned left and right and should continue to condemn. But if someone's saying, shoot them or kill them from state, you know, when you're on stage, you should condemn it in real time. You and I were talking on September 10th tomorrow is the 25th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks. You and I are both old enough to remember how terrifying that day was, how the country was gripped by fear for not just days and weeks, but years afterwards.

But you had to experience that period as a guy named Abdul al-Sayed and all the Islamophobia and suspicion that went along with it. When I think about that day, in some ways it feels like a lifetime ago. But then I look at our political debates in the way that Republicans are talking about you and fearmongering about you and your religion. And it makes me wonder if we've really moved on at all from the kind of post-9-11 politics of fear. And I'm just wondering what that period of time was like for you and how you think about it. I remember I was a junior in high school sitting in my chemistry classroom. And I remember watching the second plane hit the towers. and thinking about what happened.

You know, the victims of the terrorist attack that day were the 3,000 people who lost their lives, the first responders whose lives were irreparably harmed, the families who have a hole in their families that's been there for 25 years now, the attack on our country, the attack on the ideals of our country. But there were huge ripple effects that happened. And one of the questions our country, I think,

constantly has to ask is, who are we and who do we want to be? And in the aftermath of tragedies like this, terrorist attacks, attacks on our homeland, we get to decide how we show up. And, you know, for me, obviously, I went from being a brown kid with a funny name to being a very particular kind of brown kid with a very particular kind of funny name. And I remember a kind of a set of words that I'd never heard before being hurled at me, literally every time I'd ever step on a playing field,

I was just what came with it. And I also know that my classmates, my teammates, whether it was football, wrestling, world lacrosse, they voted me captain of the football team, wrestling team, lacrosse team. And they saw past the attempt by a few people to weaponize that attack to try to make America smaller. And by and large, we have seen in the past 25 years

an attempt by a few people who want to gain power to constantly define out of the American norm certain groups of people. And I think what made, you know, the political rise and presidency of President Obama, who was the president of my 20s, so meaningful and powerful to a lot of folks was that he was the image of an America big enough for everybody.

And we find ourselves in a moment like that now. But you're reflecting on 25 years, right? But we've been having this debate for 250 years. You know, who gets to be included? Yeah. And a lot of folks ask me, well, what does it mean to be you? I've only ever been me. I don't know how to be anybody else.

I've never lived outside of this experience set. But being me has also allowed me to see how people engage and interact with me. And yeah, there are the Mike Rogers and J.D. Vance and the Donald Trumps of the world who see in me an attempt or an opportunity to define America as smaller then. But I also get to interact with rooms full of people who are, open-minded and big-hearted and are less interested in how you pray than what you pray for and are excited about the idea of an America that is bigger, more inclusive, more empowering, that does the things that America always should have done. And I hope that in this race

is less about me and my identity and more about America and our identity. And there's something exciting about the idea that Michiganders can prove Donald Trump wrong, that they can prove J.D. Vance wrong, that they can go back and prove the folks who wanted to persist in a Jim Crow era or perpetrated in eras of slavery or destroyed native people. They can prove all of them wrong again. And that's the story of this place. So, you know, yeah, we're talking about 9-11 on the 25th anniversary because it's important for us to memorialize the people who are lost on that day. But it's also important for us to memorialize that they didn't tear us apart. They didn't take away that idea of an America that's big enough for everybody. And America decided to be that place that elected a guy like

Barack Obama that demonstrated how big it can be. And I think here in Michigan, Michiganers are going to prove that out too. You mentioned sort of questions of identity and who you are and who you always have been. What I think of you, I think of my really smart doctor friend, the guy I would call if I was trying to figure out, like, what is this new pandemic that I'm hearing about? Or, hey, man, like, help me understand this wonky health care policy. But then, you know, a lot of the clips and the ads I see out of your campaign, there's like a love island spoof. You just, you've been calling Mike Rogers a beta.

You just challenged him to an Oklahoma drill. And it's a little, you know, it's more bro than nerd. And I'm just curious, like, what's the image or messenger story you're trying to tell about yourself? Like, tell me about the two sides and kind of what you want, voters. to know about you and come away with. So the thing about politics is it always collapses people. Right.

And I ran once before in 2018 and I had never run before. I was 32 years old. There were all these open questions about, well, you know, I had the same identity then too. And I realized I'd like kind of flatten my personality in that race because I was like, well, this is how a politician is. Right. And this time around, I was like, you know what,

I'm just going to be who I am. I was authentically the kid in, you know, AP classes and also authentic. I just met your calculus teacher. You met my calculus teacher. We interviewed her. Authentically also the kid who too often, you know, would be scrapping at recess. I was both those kids. And part of it goes back to the fact that like, you know, I never walked into a classroom

where I was, quote, unquote, normal, right? And if there was a bully in that classroom, you better believe that bully was coming from me. So I learned pretty early that if you let a bully take your lunch, you're not going to eat lunch. I like to eat. So at some point I was like, okay. You know, I know what to do with bullies. and my whole life, like I am the kind of person that if you're somebody who is struggling and don't have what you need,

I will go to the ends of earth to try to provide those things. And if you're a bully who's taking those things away, I will pull the fuck out of you. Because at the end of the day, like, I don't want a world where people like that get to decide who gets and who doesn't get. So what you're seeing out of me is, yeah, like I write policy books. I wrote the book on Medicare for All. I'm proud of that book. I like to sit down and research questions and think about health policy. I enjoy studying.

And I also know that we live in a time where the capacity to actually get good policy sits at the edge of defeating a set of bullies who've tried to domineer our politics away from that. And right now, we need folks who are willing both to think critically about big problems that we have and also willing to step up to the bully. And the thing about bullies is they don't respond to reason. The reason they bully you is not because they've made a logical calculation about how best to engage in the world. is because they're usually broken people, and their approach to being broken

is to try to break other people. And the only way you take on bullies is to take on bullies. So yeah, like they want to hit me, I'm gonna hit them right back. They want to pretend like somehow people should fear how strong they are. I'm gonna show them what strength actually looks like

so that we can get to a world where that's not what runs this. I mean, there's gonna be an after Trump. And I'm excited about that. But while we got Trump in our, presidency while we've got the mini want to be Trumps, at some point, you got to stand up to them. And too often, I think as Democrats, it's like, I remember the kids in my advanced classes, anytime there'd be this bullying, they just kind of be like, oh, what are we going to do?

I'm like, stand up, fight back. So right now is the time to stand up and fight back. I also would imagine like, look, I believe you that this is who you are, having known you for like a decade now. But also, I wonder if there is political value here, right, in the that, you know, Republicans are trying to call you radical and extreme. And then they see you in a blues clues video and you're like, that guy kind of looks like a goofball, right? This doesn't look like a radical. A lot of young men in particular don't like the Democratic Party because they don't think it's masculine. We can talk about all the ways that, you know, masculinity can be defined in bad ways and can be toxic in our culture. But there is like a thing you see in polling. And then you

know that Trump's demeanor and the way he is to pull. persona and the way he acts in the world appeal to a lot of young men. And I'm just wondering, you know, when you talk about lifting and football and that kind of stuff, like, do you think it is appealing to young men? Do you think that helps you break through? You know, I played sports my whole life. It was a huge part of my childhood. Like, chances are if you met me when I was eight, nine, ten, I would be outside playing some sport with all the neighborhood kids. And so, you know, I spent a lot of my time in a lot of those locker rooms. listening to those conversations being had.

And there's this game that people play around masculinity where they try to make it very hierarchical. And I was always taught that any strength you have over somebody should be used to uplift that somebody. The version of masculinity they like to present is one in which the only way you ever punches down. and you're always kissing up. I was always taught that if you're going to punch, you punch up,

and that you protect it down. And I think it's important for people to realize you could be strong and you can be masculine and not be an asshole. So if the adjective we always hear in front of the word masculinity is toxic, what does like benevolent masculinity look like? What does it look like to actually be strong and use that effort to try to make yourself better in whatever way as a disciplining feature, but also a disciplining feature that is about how you

promote others, how you become an integrator in your community, how you empower folks, and how you demonstrate that ability to discipline yourself. They want a masculinity that's about trying to achieve power over other people. I've always taught that it was about achieving discipline over yourself. And I think there's a way forward here, which is not trying to tend to be them, but to show an alternative to what that is. Because it doesn't feel good to be an asshole. It doesn't feel good to show up and just like tell people off or you always feel bad about it if you do it. Yeah. You know, none of these people feel whole. It's a cycle. Right. And then you're always watching out for somebody else to do it to you. So what does it look like to come out and be like,

yes, out of your masculinity, you're going to be a positive force in society. You're going to uplift people. You're going to fight for more justice, more rights. Right. And yeah, when it comes to standing up the bullies, stand up, flex, but understand what you're doing it for. It's not about the power differential. It's not about the power matchup. It's about trying to make a world that's better for everybody. And I think we have to be able to embrace that and embrace it in a way that is consistent with our values. Speaking of a kind of crossover appeal, former Fox News host, Tucker Carlson, was talking about your opponent, Mike Rogers, recently, and he said, quote, I wouldn't vote for Mike Rogers at gunpoint.

Would you make of that? And is that an endorsement of you? Are we going to do a Tucker event maybe in Detroit sometime soon? Unlakely. By unlikely, I mean, no. I'm just imagining all the ops being like, wait, wait, so there's a possibility. Wait a minute. Tucker, he's here this week?

But look, I mean, I think what you get in Tucker's Carlson is somebody who's seen up close a lot of the corruption inside MAGA. And what I think he sees in Mike Rogers is what all of us see in Mike Rogers. Somebody whose only interest is power and the money he can make off of power. And so when he says that, it's because he knew Mike Rogers back when Mike Rogers was in Congress and he was supporting things like TPP and NAFTA and now pretends like he's somehow, somehow the guy who wants to stand up for workers or against free trade. The Mike Rogers he knew was the Mike Rogers who took us to all those wars in Iraq,

extended the war in Afghanistan, who never saw a war he didn't like. And now Mike Rogers is pretending he's against war until Donald Trump does war, in which case he's for a war again. Now we're loving Iran. And he understands that Mike Rogers is the guy who's never seen a corporate contribution he didn't like. So at least say what you will about Tucker. There are a lot of things that Tucker and I are going to disagree with. But he can see the corruption and the cowardice in the man. And it's just so off-putting when you actually have to look it in the eye. Yeah. There were a couple of people in the crowd tonight who worked with you when you were in charge of public health. As you know, like faith in public health and institutions took a huge hit.

It took a significant hit during COVID. But then if you look at polling, it kind of fell off a cliff when Robert F. Kennedy took over at HHS. And a lot of it is because Democrats no longer trust, you know, the CDC or Kennedy to do their job. How do you think that the federal government can rebuild that trust and better communicate about people? public health, knowing that often, if you're talking to a novel coronavirus, right, like you're not going to know all the facts, right? It's going to be an iterative process. You know, Tommy, I think the foundational issue is that people had lost public trust in public health and health care well before COVID. And it's because there's a lot of amazing science out there,

but it always sits behind a paywall. And a lot of people couldn't scale that paywall. And so when you have a charlatan who comes in and says well i have this all their alternative and they're just trying to make money off you it's not that far of a leap to go from they make things i need but they make them too expensive so i don't trust them to i don't even need the things that they make i remember talking to a gentleman in the midst of the pandemic about the vaccine he said you know it's great i'm take the vaccine i trust you but how come y'all out here trying to get me to take a vaccine that didn't exist a year ago, for a disease that didn't exist a year ago that I don't even have. When I've been diabetic my whole life and insulin, been around for 100 years, how come you all around here

trying to give me free insulin? It's like, good point. Yep. So one of the big reasons as a public health official, I'm so passionate about Medicare for All is because if we want people to trust health and health care, it can't feel like they're getting their pocket picked every day. And if we want to restore trust, the things that are out there need to be available for people without having to worry about falling into debt, without having to worry about choosing between seeing a doctor and paying your rent next month. Buddy, thanks for the time. I think you got to go sit in a van and talk to CNN, so we'll let you go. This is my life now, man. It's my life. Anyway, I appreciate you. I appreciate you being out here. Welcome any time to all the folks out there who are listening.

I hope you'll support us at Abdulfercena.com. Get involved in this campaign. We are building a movement. We took $70 million on in the primary and still one got spent 11 to one because we built a movement to get money out of politics, but money in your pocket past Medicare for all. That movement continues. I'm up against literally the poster child of the worst features of American politics, a guy who is never going to see an order from Trump he doesn't like, has never seen a corporate contribution he didn't like. And we've got an opportunity to win, an opportunity to win on our values and start redefining what the Senate can be. I'm so grateful for you guys, honored to have this conversation and looking forward to the next one. Also, like,

The vibes are good out here. It seems fun. You got a fun team. People are cool in the town hall. So come out, volunteer. We'd love to see out here. It's a lot of fun. Michigan in the fall, unbeatable.

All right, John, that's it from Michigan. I'm going to shut down my laptop, upload some files, and run to the airport. So see you guys soon. All right. We'll see you soon. And we will have a new episode in your feed on Tuesday. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production.

Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari with Reed Ech Erlin, Elijah Cohn, and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hathcote, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, David Tolls, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.