Pod Save America - "Panic! At The Delta."

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

The Biden Administration grapples with the Delta surge, Representative Adam Schiff (D-CA) talks to Tommy Vietor and Jon Favreau about the January 6th investigation, and the Top Five Wildest Moments from Donald Trump’s speech in Arizona.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. On today's show, the Biden administration grapples with the Delta surge. Representative Adam Schiff chats with Tommy and me about the January 6th investigation. And the top five bat shit craziest moments from Donald Trump's speech in Arizona. But first, we have a favor to ask. We really want to know more about what you think of the show and what we can do to make it better. So we'd love it if you could take a quick survey on crooked.com slash survey.

Shouldn't take too long. And as a thank you, we'll give you 20% off any order at the Crooked store. I can't believe we got Nate Silver to run that for us. Yeah. Or is it Nate Cohn? It's one of the Nates. Please do the survey. The confidence in your role is going to be plus or minus 20%.

Please do the survey. Because the less likely you are to do the survey, the more we'd like you to do the survey plus or minus 20 please do the survey because the less likely you are to do the survey the more we'd like you to do the survey you know what i mean yeah we want to capture all those people love it wants the haters that's what he's he's demanding you do you want the haters i was gonna say i was gonna say only take it if you have nice things once our reviews are my kink all right let's get to the news uh We are all sick of this fucking pandemic, which we are still dealing with thanks to the incredibly contagious Delta variant and the fact that about 51% of the country is still unvaccinated. That's a population that's seeing well over 90% of the new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths that have come from this latest surge. from this latest surge. Two Biden administration officials told The Washington Post over the weekend that the White House is, quote, growing increasingly anxious about the state of the

pandemic and are gravely concerned about the situation spiraling out of control in some areas of the country with low vaccination rates. The country seems to agree. A new ABC News Ipsos poll found that only 45 percent of Americans are optimistic about the direction of the country. That's a 20 point drop since their poll in May. Other polls show that this increased pessimism is driven almost entirely by the view that was articulated by Dr. Fauci on CNN over the weekend. He said that when it comes to the pandemic, quote, we're going in the wrong direction and quote, it's not going to be good. Jen Psaki got a question about this that was very annoying at the briefing just now. Let's play a clip.

On COVID, Dr. Fauci says we're going in the wrong direction. Whose fault is that? Well, I would say first what he was referring to is the fact that because there are still a large population of people in this country who are unvaccinated and we have the most transmissible variant that we've seen since the beginning of the pandemic, that more people are getting sick with COVID. And those numbers are not moving in the right direction. I think that's accurate and you can see it by data. Peter Doocy wants to know whose fault it is. That's what Peter Doocy wants to know. So Fauci in that CNN interview, of course, went on to repeat the Biden administration line that this is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

Is that how you guys would characterize the situation right now? Because we're all vaccinated and these few last last few weeks still feel like we're all in this bullshit together. We're all vaccinated. I don't make it a habit to disagree with the scientific consensus about how to describe the pandemic. I do think that like the Steve Juicy question is very, very stupid. But it actually, I think, captures the larger way in which even more sophisticated outlets have been trying to cover the surge. You remember when we did the correspondence dinner for President Obama in like 2011 or 2012, we did those fake political headlines. So not the time that we've caused Trump to run for office?

The other one? One of the other ones. One of the other less notable ones. Gotcha. But we did these fake political headlines, and one of them was like, you know, Lincoln wins civil war, where's the bounce? And a lot of the headlines have that feeling.

Like, we were talking about a deeply serious situation. All the reporters understand that, like, unlike the previous administration, this is an administration like trying to make the best decisions possible with the information they have and the limits of the media and the struggle against vaccine hesitance and all that. And instead, the coverage is like, basically, whose fault is this and how what will the political implications be? Right. Before you ever have the conversation, like the question whose fault is it is obviously a third question that would probably come after what can we do to change this situation, which no one seems to view as their job to ask.

First of all, fake news, bros. Peter Doocy was the man who asked the question. I said Peter Doocy. Steve? I didn't say Steve. I may have said Steve Doocy. And then there's another Doocy in Arizona who is, I think, unrelated.

Yeah, there's a lot of Doocys. We're going to get to him later. Yeah, we got a lot of Doocys on this show. I just wanted to throw it out there. Doocy's wild. Peter Doocy got the job, not at all because of his father, Steve Doocy,

who hosts Fox and Friends. Ironically, Steve Doocy's been pretty good on this. He's part of a get vaccinated PSA that Fox News put out. He's like the good part of Fox. Gold star for Steve Doocy. On this one. Gold star. Broken Doocy's right twice a day vaccinated PSA that Fox News put out he's like the good part of Fox on this one how do you mean broken deuces right twice a day

Love It makes the point about political implications being secondary which I do agree with I mean like I have found throughout the course of the pandemic that as you sort through terrifying tweets headlines news segments about this it's sort of hard to separate what is real from what is

sensationalized. Obviously, there's been a lot of coverage of breakthrough cases. Do you think that's been too much, too little? How do you feel about this stage of the pandemic right now? Here are facts. 51,000 new cases yesterday, nearly 52,000. 269 deaths. Those are preventable if the majority of those people were vaccinated. There's reports of some hospital systems being overwhelmed. There's going to be an economic impact. And then, I don't know about you guys, but my old friend, Anxiety, has come back for a visit and decided to stay for

a little while. So, like, the reality is, this is a problem. It's a growing problem. We're really lucky that the Delta variant hit us when it did and not earlier before we were vaccinated. I do think this is a problem. The political implications, I think, you have to separate out even more. It's going to be a challenge.

I have this way of getting rid of my anxiety house guests. It's an edible. I'm talking about edibles. I don't know. We knew where you were going. Which actually confer an immunity boost. Is that real? That's not real. I would say two things.

One, I think you're right. And the truth is Delta is different. Andy Slavitt has done really good coverage of this, the ways in which it is actually different and the ways it shouldn't feel or actually be covered as being different. And there are genuine ways in which Delta is more transmissible and is causing more breakthrough infections. more breakthrough infections. That said, one, you see a lot of like doom bait, which is not coverage of what is happening and not even quotes of scientists who have fears about what could happen, but summary sentences inside of news coverage that suggests that there's more and terrible things ahead. Like, could there be long COVID? Some scientists fear that could be the case. Yeah, it is important to say that like some questions

people have had about this. If you get a breakthrough infection, can you pass it on then to someone else who's vaccinated if you were vaccinated too? The science is still out on that. They think you are less likely to be able to pass it on as you were if you weren't vaccinated, but probably a little more likely than with the alpha variant. But the science is out on that. Could you get long COVID if you're vaccinated and have a breakthrough infection? We do not know. We don't have enough science yet. There have been almost no cases of that detected so far, but it's early. But again, no science on that yet. And then the second piece of this that I think is influencing all of this coverage is the cohort of people discussing this on Twitter, writing about this, covering it, are vaccinated.

And their families are vaccinated for the most part. They are in the kind of liberal enclaves that have a greater degree of vaccination. And so they are covering, what about breakthrough infections? What's the situation with breakthrough infections? I'm not saying that that's not important. Of course, it is important. But the larger story is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which is, of course, true. But the scale of the coverage isn't matching up because the people writing and reading these stories are all just concerned about the impact on them and their families as vaccinated people.

I think the scale of the coverage is appropriate. I think that there's a lack of specificity and there is like a fear first lead, which is leading to huge swaths of unvaccinated people thinking that the vaccine doesn't work against the variants, which is giving them another reason not to get vaccinated as opposed to the last nudge they needed. And I think that's really damaging. I mean, the key thing that everyone needs to know is that vaccinated people are almost guaranteed not to go to the hospital, not to die. That's the key. That's what vaccines are for. That's why we are where we are now and

not where India was a couple months ago when we first learned about the Delta variant. I think the key piece of advice is to, when you hear these stories, because you're almost guaranteed, will some vaccinated people end up in the hospital? Some, yes. Will we hear about that? Absolutely, because those are going to be the big stories. And so you really do have to look at the numbers and the math overall. Even a really, really effective vaccine, which we have, once you have a ton of people who are vaccinated, once you get up to 150 million people and you have a vaccine that's anywhere from 80 to 90% effective,

that's still going to be a lot of fucking people who have breakthrough infections. And again, you're going to hear about it. We're probably going to hear about it even more because of what you said, which is we're all in that same bubble together. Yeah. And it's interesting because I do think there is this there has been this rise of kind of coverage around breakthrough infections, what to be afraid of, what not. It hasn't been specific enough. It has made a lot of people afraid. My text messages suggest that that fear is spreading.

But at the same time, I actually think the more important shift we've seen over the last two weeks is, you know, Rupert Modric from his yacht gave some kind of a fucking dick tot. And it came down to like be more pro vaccine on all of his channels. And you see a big uptick. And I think the actual coverage of the Delta surge has combined to mean that we've seen a rise in in vaccination. I think the greatest increase in the rise of vaccinations or the thing most responsible for the increase is the Delta variant. Well, for Ron Klain, the White House chief of staff tweeted this yesterday. most responsible for the increase is the Delta variant itself. Ron Klain, the White House chief of staff, tweeted this yesterday.

I think 760,000 people got vaccinated in a 24-hour period, which you have to think is due to this round of reporting. Biggest number since early June. They haven't been there in a while. So that is some good news. What more can the Biden administration do to get the Delta surge under control? What tools do they have in the toolbox? So here's where I think, again, precision is helpful. I think there are things that Biden can do. And then there are demands that Biden say things and one is effective

and one is useless, right? So if we lived in a rational world, Biden could announce a vaccine mandate, a two to three week mask mandate, and we would crush the Delta variant in its tracks. But we live in a stupid, broken, polarized country where one political party acts like that would be an act of oppression. Trying to save your life is an act of oppression. They wouldn't follow through. So it gets complicated. I think where you start to hear people saying Biden should go out and say more, give speeches, do fireside chats, that's where it's actually counterproductive. So yesterday Politico quoted a historian saying we'll look back on this period and say Biden should have been doing regular addresses to the American people. What a missed opportunity. And I just think that's a

dated view of the country, of how communication works. Because like you were saying earlier, I love it, like Sean Hannity talking up the vaccine, Steve Scalise getting vaccinated, Republican radio hosts who had a change of heart. Those are the messengers we need to reach this big group of people that are unvaccinated and Republican and don't believe that Biden's actually the president of the United States. Right. I mean, like that's how fundamental the mistrust is. The Republican governor of Alabama said, you're letting us down if you don't get vaccinated. Those are the messengers that we should be elevating and trying to get covered right now. Like, you know, John, I think the things that Biden, we would like Biden to do, I think,

are probably more likely to happen on a local level. Like you've been talking up the need for L.A. to say, hey, if you work for the city, get vaccinated. Yeah, no. New York announced today that New York city workers are going to be required to be vaccinated. San Francisco has. L.A., of course, has not, even though they were first out of the gate on the on reinstating the mask mandate, which tells you everything you need to know about what it's like to live in LA during the pandemic this whole time. But look, so what can Biden do in terms of vaccine requirements? I like calling them requirements now.

I like that. Yeah, no M word. So in terms of vaccine requirements, he could require vaccine requirements for all travel, right, because that's under the federal purview for air travel or train travel. He could also require it for walking into a federal building.

He could do that soon. The other big thing, love it, I know you're going to have something to say about this, is a lot of vaccine requirements, either on the local, state, or federal level, or in the private sector, would be on even firmer legal ground. Many of them are on firm legal ground already,

but they would be on even firmer legal ground if the FDA finally approved, fully approved the vaccine, even though the FDA and the leaders of the FDA have been telling us for months, it is absolutely safe. It's approved as an emergency use authorization. Look, obviously, look, the most important thing in what makes people trust a process is knowing that like some fucking arcane procedure was was followed, even despite all common sense and knowledge and actually we really want is the fda to treat literally what are we at now two billion human beings as guinea pigs for their trial that's like the most important thing because what are the two

fucking options for the fda at this point do they really think that like not approving it now and approving it in a month or two months or three months or whenever they get around to it is going to improve trust in their process and then the alternative imagine what happens if they come to the conclusion it isn't safe you're right like wow you know what big whoopsie there thank you fda we are so proud of you we have made a big mistake that uh only 150 million americans have now made with us sorry we just told you to do it we told you to take it don't yell at us it's very silly but like silly, but like it's this idea that like the reason the FDA is the gold standard and is trusted is because they follow their processes without exception. And actually it's like the reason you trust the FDA is because you trust that the processes are smart and built to get a good result.

We already have the result. Like common sense should kind of apply here. Like it is so stupid and counterproductive that they haven't just approved this fucking, like most of the country has taken the vaccine. You work for us. You're our health representatives. We've already done it. We've trusted you.

Yeah, I think unfortunately the CDC, the FDA, they've taken a bit of a hit when it comes to trust in those institutions. That's why when I hear about things like the NFL saying, you know what, if you're a member of an NFL team and you don't get vaccinated and you have to cancel a game because a bunch of people get sick, you forfeit that game and you forfeit your pay. That kind of shit is going to make people pay attention. Or when campuses are like, guess what? You want to go to, let's say, Duke, whatever, some school, you can't come back on campus until you're vaccinated.

I think that at scale is going to be highly effective. You can't come back on campus until you're vaccinated. I think that at scale is going to be highly effective. So this is my one more big thing that the Biden administration could be doing is to more fully and forcefully get behind those moves that you're describing. So like someone asked Jen about this at the briefing about the NFL. And she's like, yeah, that's their right to do. And they can do that stuff like that. And they're sort of tiptoeing around this because I know that they're worried about the politics of vaccine requirements. And they're probably looking at France and Italy, where now they have vaccine requirements.

And there were like massive protests in the street. I'm sure the Biden administration doesn't want to see that here. But like you have the NFL doing this. You have college campuses doing this. Now you have health systems doing this. You have businesses doing this. Crooked media. We say you can't come back into the office unless you're vaccinated. The Biden administration could be leading a national effort to really

encourage businesses all over the country to put in place vaccine requirements. I can't believe Lewis was like, I don't want that 5G in my fucking body. Won't see you again. Yeah, sorry Lewis. No, I'm actually not sure that that's right. I disagree. I don't agree there. I want to go back to the Obama era theory of leading from behind. I'd like to see them poke and prod people

quietly to announce these things and then do exactly what Jen did and shut up about it and not make it about Joe Biden and make it about Roger Goodell's overpaid, obnoxious, lying ass, making a bunch of NFL players. If they're putting pressure on them in behind the scenes, I think that's probably fine, too. But they should be putting pressure on it because these are remember, we're not trying to this isn't about convincing vaccine skeptics. This is about convincing the business community, who is probably all vaccinated, and the leaders of the business community are probably much more pro-Biden and willing to listen to the White House than a lot of the people who won't get the vaccine. I think there are two tracks here. There is a persuasion track that should continue to go on where people try to persuade vaccine skeptical, vaccine hesitant people to take the shot. I don't want to classify them all as like MAGA lunatics, right? There's a lot of really good people who just are worried about it and haven't taken it. So you've got to persuade them. Then there's another track that is a vaccine requirement track that a lot of countries are experimenting with, that a lot of businesses are experimenting with here too. And I

think we have to expand that as quickly as possible. And the Biden administration should do whatever they can to get behind that. Yeah, but I don't think Joe Biden getting up there and saying, I'm in favor of vaccine requirements is going to mean we end up with more vaccine requirements for the exact same reason he's not necessarily the right messenger to tell people to get vaccinated at this point. And it's more important to lift up local voices and people and vaccine skeptics

that people that the vaccine skeptics might trust like this is already polarized. They're already out there on this. I know it's just Fauci's on TV saying yeah, there should be more local mandates. There should be more of this. So like this, I'm saying it's not like they've been, I don't want to talk about it. They're already out there on this. I know. Fauci's on TV saying, yeah, there should be more local mandates. There should be more of this. So like, this is what I'm saying. It's not like they've been,

I don't want to talk about it. They're already a little bit out there. I just look, when the NFL announces this step, I want a bunch of businesses to read about the NFL doing this. I don't want them to read

a subsequent story that gets topped with a Jen Psaki or Joe Biden comment about how, yeah, they should do this and everyone should be doing this. I want to let that story

marinate out there. People read it and try to follow suit. But like, look, it's a this and everyone should be doing this. It's like, I want to let that story marinate out there. People read it and try to follow suit. But like, look, it's a matter of degree here. Yeah, I just think it's this is not a persuasion thing to me. This is not about the coverage. The vaccine requirements got to get done and they got to get done fast because by the time if we put them in place in December after everyone's decided they like what the NFL done and put in place, it's too fucking late and a bunch of people have died.

So like as fast as we can, we got to put them in place. If they're doing it behind the scenes, that's fine. But they got to do it. At some point, Biden's message about the pandemic and his governing record will sharpen into a campaign message for the midterms. We got a preview of that on Friday in Virginia when the president campaigned for the first time with former Governor Terry McAuliffe in his race against Republican Glenn Youngkin. Biden focused on his work to end the pandemic and save the economy, but he also called Youngkin an acolyte of Donald Trump and said, quote, I ran against Donald Trump and so is Terry. I whipped Donald Trump in Virginia and so will Terry. This is interesting because Tommy and I recorded our interview with Congressman Schiff before we started talking about this.

He basically said if Kevin McCarthy is speaker, if the Republicans win the House, it'll be like Donald Trump is speaker. What do you guys think about this clear strategy on behalf of Democrats now to tie all of these Republican candidates to Donald Trump? You see the same thing in California, there are ads running nonstop saying stop the Trumpist recall of Gavin Newsom. Oh, really? Yeah, they were on last night. Yeah, like first, you know, first they tried to overturn the election. Now the insurrectionists have set their eyes on California and Gavin Newsom. So, I mean, I don't like what you think. I was like, OK, maybe. I don't know. Like, yeah, sure. Why not? Let's go for it. It's a Trump thing. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure it's polling. Well, yeah, I don't know. I think it's just Donald Trump is now popular in a changing Virginia. all. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's just Donald Trump is now popular in a changing Virginia. And the way in which Donald Trump has been covered has never treated him like a normal politician. But as a normal politician, Donald Trump is a deeply unpopular, divisive figure that turns off a lot of people, especially the kind of people a Republican needs to bring back

if they're going to win in a state like Virginia. In the suburbs, the places where Trump has lost and the places where some of those Republicans could come home to a more moderate or kind of less less uncivil figure. And I think they're trying to make sure that that doesn't happen. What's interesting about that Biden message is essentially the MAGA message, because I was watching the Turning Point USA event that became this by the Trump Arizona speech. And that little schlub, Charlie Kirk, who runs the organization, said, if you were silent about what happened in 2020, get out of the party and run as a Democrat. So these members are going to get squeezed on both sides and essentially get forced into taking this position. And it's probably a state by state thing in terms of how it polls and what it'll mean for Terry McAuliffe versus someone in running in Arkansas or whatever. But it's interesting. Look, hey, it's a strategy. I haven't seen this

anywhere, though. I'm sure it is everywhere and I've just missed it. But calling him Glenn Trumpkin is just right there for the taking. That seems like it's in a fucking democratic fundraising email right now. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I'm going to say it's probably going to happen. If it's not, you just did it. I just did it. What I'm worried about is I don't want it to be too simplistic. Like I could tell, Lovett, that's sort of what you might have been chafing at with that.

Like I don't, I think one of the, one thing that we didn't do as much in 2020 is we didn't define the Republican Party and the threat from the Republican Party. What we said is Trump is the biggest threat to democracy right now. And so Joe Biden needs to beat Donald Trump. That was the right thing to do in 2020 because Trump was a fucking existential threat to democracy right now. And so Joe Biden needs to beat Donald Trump. That was the right thing to do in 2020 because Trump was a fucking existential threat to democracy. Well, all these months later, as all the Republicans have sided with Trump on the, you know, insurrection and potential coup there, I do think that in 2022, we need to have a message about the Republican Party. And it's not just, what does it mean to be like Trump? What does it mean to be a Republican Party that has remade itself in Trump's image? It's like a very subtle difference.

But I think you need to describe Republicans and what's wrong with them and what's bad about them. That's not just, oh, they're all Trump. I think it's one of the debates that kind of plays out over and over again in terms of Democratic messaging is there's an impulse on the part of Democratic campaigns to focus on kitchen table issues, because those poll really well for Democrats, they pull really poorly for Republicans, then you have, I think, another argument that's also valid, which is like, we can't simply ignore the assault on democracy, even though there is this like, kind of surface level polling that tells us it's not the place to fight. Donald Trump, one of the moments of his lowest popularity after four years of fucking misrule

was when he was trying to overturn Obamacare. That was just true, right? And like painting Republicans not just as Trumpist because we don't like him personally, but because we don't like his low tax rates for corporations, cuts to social services. Like we have to figure out a way to make this a message that ties the anti-democratic

and the kind of incivility that people hate to the policy agenda that's harder to kind of get the media to focus on, certainly. Yeah. By saying that they're all like Trump, you're calling them extremists. And I think that there's a way to define what a Republican extremist means today. And that can range anywhere from voting against COVID relief checks, which they did, to voting against a bipartisan panel to investigate an attack on the Capitol. Right. They're all sort of a piece. can range anywhere from voting against COVID relief checks, which they did, to voting against a bipartisan panel to investigate an attack on the Capitol, right? They're all sort of a piece. But again, Trump has set the terms of the debate here because he said at this speech we're about to talk about that the election lie, you know, him feeling the election was stolen from him,

is the biggest issue there is. I think that's a direct quote. He says it's bigger than the border, it's bigger than inflation, it's bigger than anything else. To him, this is the core issue that Republicans should be talking about. So they'll probably get there. So we should meet them there. And not just should be talking about. Have to be talking about. Or you're out.

Or you're out unless you want to be punished. All right. When we come back, Tommy and I will talk to Congressman Adam Schiff. The House of Representatives Select Committee to investigate the deadly insurrection against Congress on 1-6 will hold its first hearing tomorrow, July 27th. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is boycotting the hearings because Speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to let him appoint members who said they wanted to sabotage them. But there will be two Republicans on the panel, thanks to Pelosi representatives Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. Here to talk more about what we can expect from these hearings is one of the Democratic committee members, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and a longtime friend of the pod, Congressman Adam Schiff. Congressman, welcome back. Thanks. Great to be

with you. So you have said that the goal of this committee is first and foremost to uncover the truth about the 1-6 attacks. Are there additional goals? Will there be recommendations of some sort after the committee finishes its work? And more importantly, how can the work you're about to do be used to help make sure there's not another 1-6? Well, that really is the entire point, which is we want to conduct a thorough investigation, follow the evidence, but make a series of sound recommendations about how to protect the country going forward, how to make sure that there is not a next attack on the U.S. Capitol or one of the state capitals. And, you know, we were just doing some preparation for the hearing tomorrow,

and any number of the insurrectionists said, okay, next time they're going to do X or Y. So there was certainly an intention among those who attacked the Capitol that day to continue the unfinished work they set about. So those recommendations about how to protect our democracy and our Capitol and our people, that's going to be among the most important parts of this. our Capitol and our people, that's going to be among the most important parts of this. Congressman, we're seeing this troubling sort of rewriting of history where Republicans are more and more willing to suggest that the insurrectionists on 1-6 were freedom fighters. Now, you're trying to put together this committee with the speaker and Kevin McCarthy is calling Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, two Republican members of Congress, Pelosi Republicans, suggesting that the committee isn't bipartisan members of Congress, Pelosi Republicans, suggesting that the

committee isn't bipartisan because they aren't real Republicans, presumably because they don't support Trump's election lie. Unfortunately, we're seeing parts of the mainstream press even kind of repeat that spin. How do you, how do we all push back on the sort of Kevin McCarthy politico playbook definition of a Republican or bipartisan as Trump sycophants, as people who support the insurrection or will repeat his lies uncritically? Well, you know, I think that Liz Cheney is really the case in point because here she was the number three person in the Republican Party. She's more conservative than Elise Stefanik, far more conservative, more within the tradition of the GOP. But she's thrown out of her leadership position and replaced

with Stefanik. Why? Because she refused to carry the president's big lie and Kevin McCarthy's big lie. And that cost her her job. And she was replaced with someone, Annalise Stefanik, who was willing to carry those big lies. The Republican Party, sadly, right now is a cult around the former president. It's an anti-democratic, anti-truth cult. And if you're not willing to be a part of that, then you're essentially cast aside by Kevin McCarthy. Look, we're determined to get to the truth. We have a great body of members now on the select committee, Democrats and Republicans, who are wedded to the truth. And that's what this calls for. That's what our Constitution requires in this circumstance. What are some of the most important questions that still haven't been answered in your mind

about 1-6 that you're going to be looking for answers to on the committee? Well, I'd like to know, what did we know in advance of January 6th? What do we know about those who were planning this? What do we know about the potential for violence? What was known within the administration of the participation of these white nationalist groups? Why were we so ill-prepared? And why were the reinforcements so slow to arrive? These are some of the questions. What level of financing was involved in this? What plans do these groups have for future attacks on the capital of our democracy? But one of the overarching questions for me is, and this I think was really summed up by one of

the officers that day when he asked after being subject to racial epithets and seeing these people attack the citadel of our democracy. Is this America? Is this what we have to expect now when one side loses an election, that they don't accept the results? That is now okay to use violence to achieve a political end and to stoke bigotry and division in furtherance of that violence. And I think one of the recommendations we need to make is how this country is going to once again solidify our support for democracy and make sure that this experiment in self-government continues and will thrive because it's now, I think, at greater risk than certainly any time in my lifetime.

I'm sure there are a lot of conversations and debate around the witness list. Obviously, potential for witnesses include former members of the Trump administration, members of Congress, even potentially Kevin McCarthy himself, potentially Donald Trump himself. How are you deciding who to call as witnesses? And then how are you making sure that if they don't voluntarily comply, that they will, in fact, answer a subpoena? Because obviously this was a challenge during the impeachment hearings. Well, we are very much in the early stages of the investigation. And one of the first steps is developing the scope of the investigation.

What issues are we going to drill into? And where is the evidence that we need in terms of resolving the questions about those issues? You know, you don't usually start out at the top. You work your way up in terms of the seriousness of the issues and the witnesses. Hopefully you get a lot of the documentary evidence that you can follow up the question of witnesses with. So, you know, I think at this point it's premature to be saying precisely who we'll be bringing in, but it's going to require, I think, at the end of the day, the use of compulsion to get some of these answers. We want to make sure that when we request documents, we get them all. And if you do it simply on a voluntary basis, then people can refuse. And there's no repercussions. So I favor

the use of subpoenas. Normally, we would start with voluntary compliance and go to subpoena, but I don't think we want to wait. And in terms of witnesses, if there are witnesses that are relevant and they refuse, then we'll need to use subpoenas. If they still refuse, then we'll need to figure out what tools do we have to compel them to come in. And we may have some more tools now than we did over the last four years. Is Trump as a witness on the table, at least? The chairman, Bennie Thompson, has said basically everyone is on the table, and that includes the former president. According to one of the Trump books, Ivanka told someone she was standing by that Mike Pence is a good man and that she thinks this whole insurrection thing is bad.

Could we call the Trump family? Because they're painting pictures of themselves in these books where everyone looks like a bit of a hero. And I'm curious if we can get some of these quotes under oath. Well, as you say, there's been a tremendous amount of revisionist history, not just about January 6th, but about the actors within the Trump administration. There's been an effort to rehabilitate damaged and destroyed reputations. Where it's relevant to January 6th, where witnesses have important information, we're not going to rely on self-serving public statements. We'll want to bring in those that are relevant. I don't want to say that's true of Ivanka. I simply don't know, and we haven't

made specific decisions. But we're not going to rely on these self-serving accounts. We're going to make sure that people are put under oath that have relevant testimony. Slightly different topic. You know, there's a lot of concern. There's growing concern, I think, among activists, voting rights attorneys, us about voter suppression efforts we're seeing in dozens of states, along with the likely gerrymandering that will happen in a lot of states that could have the potential to essentially rewrite the maps and in so doing hand Republicans the majority in 2022 through a gerrymander. How concerned is leadership about that potential? And is there a plan to try to stop it? You know, deeply concerned. And I know I feel this is an existential issue for our party, for our democracy. I think every effort has to be

made to pass H.R. 1, to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. You know, one thing I'm convinced of, and that is if the situation was reversed and Mitch McConnell was running the Senate, the Republicans controlled the House and controlled the White House, and there was something they felt existential, McConnell would find a way to get it done. And we darn well need to find a way to get it done also. we darn well need to find a way to get it done also. And time is running out, particularly when it comes to the gerrymander. So I feel a real sense of urgency. I think the President of the United States needs to be working on this every day. He needs to be working with Joe Manchin to find a pathway to a carve out of the filibuster

when it comes to this foundational right to vote. And, you know, failing to get that done, we are simply going to have to mount the most massive turnout operation in our history and overcome whatever obstacles they put in our way, including these bigoted Jim Crow laws that are being enacted around the country. Yeah, I mean, just one little follow on that. I mean, there's been some reporting that suggests that the White House thinks that maybe we can just sort of out-organize a gerrymander as one of the people who would be potentially asked to do that or, you know, on behalf of colleagues who might be asked to sort of out-organize a gerrymander.

Do you think that's feasible or even possible? I wonder how you reacted to that. Well, my feeling is I don't even contemplate that possibility. I just want to make sure we do everything to prevent the gerrymander in the first place. One thing I'm utterly convinced of, and that is if they're allowed to gerrymander, it will be the most severe gerrymander ever. The Republicans feel they can gerrymander their way into a majority, and they could be right about that. And I don't want to simply rely on the fallback. You know, we'll do everything humanly possible if that becomes necessary.

But right now, we should be focused on whatever it takes to get legislation passed requiring states to use independent commissions like we do in California. I think that's achievable, but I think it will require the president's personal and daily involvement in this fight to carve out this area from the filibuster. And I wouldn't give that task to anyone else because the success of his presidency also ultimately depends on doing away with the gerrymander and making sure that we end these disenfranchisement efforts. You tweeted the other day that Republicans of good conscience, both in power and out, must take their party back. So only 17 Republicans in Congress voted to impeach Trump the second time. And the guy is currently frontrunner for the Republican nomination in 2024. How is the Republican Civil War anything but over already? And what are the implications

for that? You know, there was a brief moment, all too brief, when Mitch McConnell flirted with matters of conscience after the insurrection, spoke out, you know, in very strong terms about Trump's responsibility for the bloodbath that day and using the largest megaphone in the world to push out these lies about an election that he simply couldn't accept that he'd lost. But it was only two weeks after that he was asked, well, if he's your nominee, are you going to support him? And his answer was absolutely. That's how long those matters of conscience held out for two weeks, which was really almost two weeks longer than it did for Kevin McCarthy. And it's a terrible tragedy for the country because there was a chance

that we might turn a corner after that horrible day. But the reality is, I think as long as Donald Trump is on the scene, we're going to be struggling with this. You're right to say that in this initial round, that that fight has been won by Donald Trump. He owns that party lock, stock and barrel. that party lock, stock and barrel. But we're not going to have a truly functional democracy until the Republican Party stops being a cult of that indecent, amoral human being and becomes a party of ideas. And so however long it takes is going to be how long it takes for our country to recover. Just one question about the cult. You mentioned House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy. He famously used to pick out the red and pink starbursts and give just those to President Trump because he thought President Trump preferred just red and pink starbursts. Have you ever asked

him what his problem is with orange starbursts? Because I find them to be quite good. And I find this whole charade a little bit insulting. Well, I think maybe the problem with the orange starbursts is that, you know, it might add to the former president's coloration. But no, I think maybe the problem with the orange starburst is that, you know, it might add to the former president's coloration. But no, I think that Kevin McCarthy view that as among his most important responsibilities as Republican leader. And don't even get me started on what he probably would do with the M&Ms. I mean, this is very funny, of course, because Kevin McCarthy is a sycophant. How concerned are you about what it looks like for Republicans to take the House again and what that might mean? Because it feels like the stakes are bigger than

the usual midterm election where one party takes control of Congress or not. And that now we have a party that has so frontally attacked democracy so brazenly and openly in charge of the House. Are you worried personally? Are you worried for the country? Like, what is the level of concern you have about giving Republicans power again in this country? You know, I'm glad you asked that question, because I don't think there's been enough focus on just what a calamity it would be if Kevin McCarthy ever set foot in the Speaker's office. Kevin McCarthy was made for a moment like this, a moment of a Trump presidency, former presidency, when there is no devotion in that party to truth. That was a moment made for Kevin McCarthy. And it's not just that we would have Republicans controlling one chamber and legislative gridlock and we couldn't make progress on climate or any number of other vital

existential issues. It's that we would have someone very much mirroring the immorality, the lack of character of the former president in the Speaker's office, if it were Kevin McCarthy. This is a contingency to which all efforts must be made to avoid. I think effectively, if Kevin McCarthy ever became Speaker, Donald Trump would be Speaker. Whether he was named Speaker or not, he would be effectively running the House of Representatives. His lies would be Kevin's lies, and Kevin's lies would be the lies of the House of Representatives. And so we need to make sure that never happens. Yes, we do. Everyone get ready to vote in 22.

Congressman Schiff, thank you so much for joining and good luck with the hearings this week. Thank you very much. All right. So the front runner for the 2024 Republican nomination took the stage at a rally for election integrity, is what it was called, in Arizona on Saturday. Donald Trump spoke for nearly two hours and he played all the hits. He even led a locker-up chant about Hillary Clinton for old time's sake. Since no one but the Newsmax audience had the pleasure of watching the speech in full, and since no one should ever have to watch another Trump speech in full, the speech in full. And since no one should ever have to watch another Trump speech in full, we thought we'd bring you the top five batshit craziest moments from Trump's Arizona speech.

Let's hear number five. How about the vaccine? I came up with the vaccine. They said it would take three to five years, going to save the world. I recommend you take it, but I also believe in your freedoms a hundred percent, but just so you understand, but it was a great achievement. It was a sandwich there. I'm awesome. Look what I did. You don't have to take it if you don't want. But it's awesome that I did it.

I recommend you take it. I recommend you take it, but does not want that clip alone. Doesn't want it out there alone. That's why I get so frustrated when you wake up in the morning and Politico playbook says, why isn't Joe Biden giving more speeches about this? Because it's just so clear that that's not going to be effective. That's not the problem.

Joe Biden is not the solution here. It's Donald Trump, both sides seeing the vaccine in the middle of a massive new surge. It's like I'm not defending Biden. I'm not saying the response has been perfect. But it's like, if Trump came out and said, hey, you're all going to die if you don't get this vaccine. Get it tomorrow. If you want to be part of my movement. A lot of people would do it. If you want to be part of this movement, there's one thing you need to do first, which is get this vaccine.

We need you safe. We need you healthy. We need you voting. Get the vaccine. Yeah. So this is, I'm 100% with you on this one. This is slightly different than my Biden should be pushing vaccine requirements. Again, this is about what Biden should say, not do.

Right. And on the saying, like Chris Christie was actually saying this over the weekend. He talked, he's like, I talked to some guy and, you know, convinced him to get the vaccine. And what he doesn't want here is like Joe Biden going out there every day and tweeting and Kamala Harris tweeting, like, get vaccinated isn't doing anything. And he's right. Like at this point, the White House going out and just being like, get vaccinated is not, you know, it's a message in the messenger. It's going to happen locally.

It's going to happen in communities. It's going to happen from trusted sources like doctors or people, you know, or people in your family. That's how you're going to get people vaccinated. And clearly, Donald Trump does not want to be part of that effort, even though he was vaccinated among he's one among one of the first people vaccinated and did so in secret and wants credit for it and wants credit for it. All right. Let's listen to number four. I said, why wouldn't this governor, Doug Ducey, you know, when I did rallies, when I did rallies, he always wanted to be in the front row. Sir, could you mention my name, please? Oh, yeah, I'll mention. But I'd introduce him and I wouldn't get much of an applause and I'd get a lot of boos. And I kept saying, you know, this guy's not very

popular. But now, you know what? He's not popular with me either they came to see me they said sir would you like him to run for the Senate I said he's not getting my endorsement I can tell you the Mitch the Mitch McConnell there's another beauty by the way the Mitch McConnell Republican the Mitch McConnell the old crow what did that mean where did the old crow come from the old crow it's definitely not the most important part of that clip but i just could not stop laughing at the old crow mitch mcconnell that old crow is that a thing is that a saying so for some reason i also watched uh arizona congressman paul gosar's speech uh He's a Republican congressman from the 4th District.

So you know that scene in Men in Black when the alien first comes down and he takes over the body of the mechanic? Yeah. He's got that sort of weird affect where he kind of like lurches around. Vincent D'Onofrio. That's Paul Gosar.

One of his great performances. Yeah. That's one of his good... You really think that he's wearing a Vincent D'Onofrio suit? Yeah. That's the cool thing about it and so the number of theories that they're going through to get to this audit like they think 400 to 700 000 ballots were altered he's recommending a documentary called kill chain which is either a documentary or a 2019 nick cage movie but there's what i'm trying to get at is slowly is that there's really no difference between this Gosar speech and where Trump is on the audit and on what's happening in Arizona in terms of the election lie.

And the Paul Gosar speech is like one of the craziest things I've ever watched. to Mark Kelly or Kyrsten Sinema in Arizona because he is one of the few sort of, let's call them establishment Republicans left in Arizona. The Arizona Republican Party is well known for all the rest of its fucking kooks, right? From Kelly Ward to Joe Arpaio and the rest of the crew. And it made me think like, we've been sort of worried that Donald Trump

is going to remake the party in his image and endorse all these Trumpy candidates who are going to wreak havoc. And I still worry a great deal about that. But like the fact that he's going to go all in against Ducey when Ducey is clearly their best candidate there is very telling. And you wonder how many different places around the country that will happen. Well, yeah, I mean, look, the only time the Republican Party and Donald Trump's interests have 100% aligned is when Donald Trump was on the ballot because Donald Trump wants to win and they want him to win, right? but you know, I think we will see a mix of Trumpy and politics driving turnout of that base combined with some of the kind of blowback we saw in

Georgia with Donald Trump sowing chaos because he sees it in his interest to be a kingmaker or... I always get these confused, but there's defenestration and there's regicide. Yes, sometimes he wants to make kings and sometimes he wants to do regicide. Yeah, it's just so jarring to hear Gosar talk about his like who killed Ashley Babbitt bracelet. And he's again suggesting that insiders from the FBI and DOJ were part of the insurrection. It's like that guy was what, one or two speakers before Trump. I mean, that's the party. Now, the one place where Trump really is smart on the politics is bashing McConnell.

Again, I keep thinking about that Unite the Country memo, the pro-Biden super PAC. And they said the one politician that even the strongest Biden voters and the strongest Trump voters all hated was Mitch McConnell. strongest Biden voters and the strongest Trump voters all hated was Mitch McConnell it was like it was like the one thing every person in the focus group and all the focus groups agreed on was that Mitch McConnell was garbage so running against Mitch McConnell in 2022 again seems like a smart move um all right let's listen to number three and I only wish that my friend Mike Pence Pence had that additional courage to send the results back to the legislatures. Not for nothing, it's amazing to me that Trump still thinks that Mike Pence had the power to send the results back to the legislatures. So that, look, it should be obvious. So there's a story in Politico over the weekend that Pence is all but gone from the ticket if Trump runs again, and that they're viewing everyone who is considering running in

2024 as a potential running mate. And it was interesting to read that because you don't often read about a former vice president being jettisoned from a ticket, especially not a successful ticket. But then to hear that riff over and over and over again, like, of course, he's gone. Of course, he's dead in the water. He's just gone. But it's funny that Pence still thinks he has a chance and is hitting the, like, chicken dinner circuit, going to all these Iowa dinners and stuff

and thinks he's, like, Yeah, look, I mean, that's real optimism. A crowd of angry MAGA supporters were chanting for you to be hung and then you still think you have a chance with them. That's optimism.

It's, um, hey, Mike, if your date tries to hang you, that's that's optimism it's um hey mike if your date tries to hang you that's a deal breaker you know what i mean like they don't want you they wanted to kill you as they wanted to kill you the old saying the people you're campaigning to win the votes of wanted to kill you tell me to your point about the piece about pence getting jenison from the ticket it really all of the contenders right now that are potentially running in 2024 are acting more like

they are doing an audition for Trump's VP than they are candidates right now. Whether it's Kristi Noem, whether it's DeSantis,

any of them, all they're doing is sucking up to Trump as much as possible. They don't seem like candidates who are running to win. They seem like candidates

who are running to be Donald Trump's vice president. It's 2016 dynamic all over again. Yeah. It's the Jeb. It's the Jeb Bush. Noam is basically bashing the other Republicans too, trying to say like,

these people tried to save their states from COVID. Not me. Not this one. That's why I should be vice president. Well, she also wants, and she probably also wants Trump to view DeSantis as a threat so that Trump picks her. Of course. And also, I think they're're waiting for the moment Trump decides it's time to destroy Ron DeSantis to make a point, make a point about what happens if you poke your head up above the trench. Yeah, which is why Ron DeSantis is being super nice and not even obliquely making any contrast with Trump.

But again, meanwhile, The Washington Post reported over the weekend that Trump's super PAC has raised seventy five million dollars year, and none of it has gone toward these audits, these attempts to overturn the election. So it's all bullshit. Yeah, why fund them when you can just talk about them like they're the most important thing ever, but not actually spend your limited money on them. All right, number two. The U.S. women's soccer team is a very good example of what's going on.

of what's going on. Earlier this week, they unexpectedly lost to Sweden 3-0. And Americans were happy about it. You proved that point before I even said it. America first.

He's got a crowd rooting against America in favor of the socialist Swedes. Well, they're white. The Swedes are white. The Swedes are a white country. He likes that. He always talks about Sweden. Unbelievable. In this section, he said,

Wokeism makes you lose, ruins your mind, ruins you as a person. Then he accused the left of ruining baseball because the Cleveland Indians changed their name to the Cleveland Guardians. Then he attacked LeBron James and he said the ratings went up after his team was defeated. So I guess Donald Trump's point is that the ratings for the NBA finals were higher than for the first round of the playoffs. That sort of stands to reason. But it was a real rant, a real anti-athlete, anti-American rant here that is stark. Didn't it turn anti-trans at one point, too?

Yes. That was LeBron. The LeBron. The attacks. Transgender athletes. Quite a journey. Quite a journey. But I also think this is, you know,

Mehdi and I were talking about this on Thursday's pod, but an example of, like, a culture war the Democrats should not shy away from, right? Like, this guy is now against American sports, right? Rooting against American athletes. That's not popular with most of the country. Again, right now, Chiron, the Fox News of the left that doesn't exist for a full week, Republicans turn on America's athletic heroes for a full week and then it would become a story. And then you'd start seeing it in the polls that they have this anti-patriotism problem. But of course, that won't happen,

because we're fighting an asymmetric battle here. But yeah, no, I mean like... We'll run it as a chyron on here. Yeah, can we get a chyron here? Can we get our Fox News of the left chyron? All right. Terrific. The number one most batshit crazy moment

from Donald Trump's speech in Arizona. Here it is. The county has, for whatever reason, also refused to produce the network routers. We want the routers, Sonny. Wendy, we got to get those routers, please. The routers. Come on, Kelly, we can get those routers. Those routers. You know what? We're so beyond the routers. There's so many fraudulent votes without the routers. But if you got those routers, what that will show, and they don't want to give up the routers. They don't want to give them. They are fighting like hell.

Why are these commissioners fighting not to give the routers? How simple could it be? That will tell the truth. Do you think he knows what a router is or has ever seen a router? Do you guys know the backstory of where this came from? No, and I didn't intend to learn it, but now... We're here and I want to hear it.

I found out about the Cleveland Indians changing their name to the Cleveland Guardians from you, so keep going. How did you miss that? You're not a big sports guy. Maricopa County, they're doing this audit. They're trying to subpoena the network routers used by the county's election division because the audit leaders think the voting machines were online. And that working in the U.S. embassy in Rome. So the Italians are behind this.

And they used Italian military satellites to change votes from Trump to Biden. And this was apparently orchestrated by Obama, the former prime minister of Italy, Prime Minister Renzi in the CIA. And it was basically manufactured by some website group entity called Nations in Action. And so the- So it was an Italian job. It was an Italian job. By the way, I'm sorry. I just-

Italian military satellites? What are those? Yeah, right. I don't know. And so what the people in charge of the elections in Arizona are saying is, hey, if we give you all our routers, it'll cost us $6 million to replace them. But this is like, this is the disinformation problem, right? He just every week spouts something

new. It's impossible to disprove it. What does he think is in the routers? He enjoys Hillary's emails during the routers. It's the perfect kind of word for him. Ballots are stuck in the routers. He doesn't know what a router is. He sees it there. He has some fun because it sounds technical. It sounds like something you should try to get. He knows he won't

get them. He knows you don't need them. When do you get the routers? Because he knows even without the routers, he's still going to make the same argument. It does like, to make a serious point, like this is the new kind of conspiracy theory that is much harder to combat, which is it's conspiracy without the theory.

Like Tommy just outlined one version of the story. There are... Which I now believe. Of course. They're calling it Italy Gate. Yeah. I'm in. Hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube with videos about this.

But really what they want to put the microchip in the vaccines is to say the election is fraudulent. And then you say the election is fraudulent and it's a command to all of these people to create a theory from the ground up that can help make that argument. And so you don't need any specific case. Trump doesn't need to latch on any one kind of case. Neither does evil dentist Paul Gosar. And what happens is all these people from the ground up generate their own version of the truth. Any one of them is fine on any given day. The same thing happened with Benghazi.

We're going to see it over and over again. The same thing happened, I think, with some of the conspiracy theories around Hunter Biden. Rudy Giuliani generates these. And so it's endless. There's no generates these. And so it's just endless. There's no way to stop it because it's from the ground up. It's not from the top down. They're complicated and they're kind of lurid and detailed.

So the Georgia, remember in Atlanta there was a water main break. They had to leave the building and they came back in. Now he says that water main break on election night was fake. That political operative stuffed a bunch of ballots with fake ballots that were under a table. He said that people were so upset that they threw up watching it.

Yeah, I thought that. That's a pretty vivid scene. You think it would be reported out. Somehow it has not, that the Italians hacked us. But again, the fringe organization no one's ever heard of, YouTube videos, it just comes out of the President of the United States mouth. And again, there's scary real life consequences here in addition to the fact that this is all barreling towards another Trump run for president. But in Georgia today, now because of the new law, the Republican state legislature is moving, taking steps to take over elections in Fulton County.

in Fulton County, which is the things that we were most worried about with some of these voter restriction bills is the fact that Republicans are just going to try to take over nonpartisan elections or elections where Republicans ran them who are not sufficiently loyal to Donald Trump. I also say to like this conspiratorial mindset, like infects every aspect of our culture, including the resistance to the vaccine. And, you know, a lot of people gave Sean Hannity, I think, credit he didn't deserve for how he said how he pointed people toward the vaccine. He said, you know, research it like crazy. Talk to your doctor. Many people. Vaccine is a good option. And then, of course, he comes back and walks back because I never recommended the vaccine. I never recommended the vaccine because regardless of any one instance of someone saying take it or don't take it,

they have built an entire ecosystem that is predicated on the assumption that no one is telling you the truth. Nothing you see is real. You can't believe any public official ever, no matter what they say, unless it's Donald Trump, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham or Tucker Carlson. And we pay for it in small ways and large ways every single day. They are pro-virus, anti-America. That's it. There's the message. All right. That's all we have for today. Thank you to Adam Schiff for joining us. And we'll talk to you guys later. is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez.

It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Narmel Konian, who film and share our episodes

as videos every week.