Pod Save America - Re-Indicted And It Feels So Good (with Hillary Clinton!)

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

Guest host Alex Wagner joins Jon, Jon, Tommy, and Dan live at Tribeca in New York City! Donald Trump gets 37 felony counts related to stealing classified information and lying to the FBI about it while the rest of the Republican field and party tries to figure out how to deal with a twice-impeached, disgraced former president. New York Attorney General Tish James joins to talk about her plans for New York and her ongoing investigation into Trump's crimes. Secretary Hillary Clinton offers her reaction to Trump’s indictment and Republicans’ continued obsession with her emails, and talks about her experiences with Vladimir Putin. Plus, Roy Wood Jr. stops by to get quizzed on the Mess America Pageant.Get the Totally Impartial Potential Juror shirt here: https://store.crooked.com/products/totally-impartial-potential-juror-t-shirt For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Alex Wagner. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Alex Wagner. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. We have a fantastic show for you tonight. We got the host of Alex Wagner tonight on MSNBC, Alex Wagner. We got New York Attorney General Tish James.

The Daily Show's Roy Wood Jr. And someone who I imagine might have something to say about the news of the day, Hillary Clinton is here. All right, let's jump right in. You guys want to talk about the death ceiling? No, not the death ceiling. Donald Trump is taking his talent for crime to South Beach on Tuesday, where he'll be arraigned in Miami on 37 felony counts related to stealing America's nuclear secrets and war plans, leaving these secrets scattered around his beach club,

showing them off to random strangers, hiding them from the FBI, and then lying about it. In the unsealed and incredibly detailed indictment, Special Counsel Jack Smith will try to prove Trump's guilt with evidence that includes video surveillance footage, testimony and written notes from Trump's own employees and lawyers, and, of course, audio recordings from Trump himself.

If convicted, the twice-impeached, twice-indicted 76-year-old criminal defendant could serve the rest of his life in prison or... All right, all right. All right. That's never what it was about. Or he could be the next president of the United States. Either way. What a country. Both sides journalism.

That's where we are. Alex, so you were our very first guest at our very first Pod Save America live show right here in New York City. You're welcome. Yes. I think I was the one that really kicked it all off. first guest at our very first Pod Save America live show right here in New York City. It was. You're welcome. Yes.

I think I was the one that really kicked it all off. It was you and Bill de Blasio. I'll leave that one right there. So I went back to look at the headlines from that day. Here are the headlines. Trump turns Mar-a-Lago terrace into an open air situation room. Here are the headlines. Trump turns Mar-a-Lago terrace into an open-air situation room.

Mar-a-Lago guest takes picture with nuclear football. And Trump ran a campaign based on intelligence security. That's not how he's governing. So time is a flat circle. Knowing that the behavior he's been charged with isn't exactly out of character, what, if anything, surprised you about this indictment as especially damning for Trump? Where to begin, John? I think there are probably a few things.

It's hard to pick one thing. Number one, storing classified documents, including war secrets and details on nuclear programs, next to a toilet. Like it's just never a good visual and it's, it's not a good look. Yeah. That,

I mean, it's a good place if you want to need some light reading. Yeah. I mean, that's where sports like old issues of like sports illustrated and mad magazine go, not like the Iran nuclear attack plans. And I don't, I mean, I remember getting the hard copy of the New York Times this weekend, and you just,

you just have to show that photo. And it's almost kind of a say, enough said moment. But the other part of it that I found particularly galling was the fact that, and I don't think enough attention has been paid to this, Trump got a Navy man, Walt Nauda, who is, you know, not someone who's part of this world in terms of like the executive concerns of the president of the United States. He's very much someone who is Trump's body man. He's responsible for the Diet Cokes. He's responsible for packing the luggage. And he used a career service person to do the dirty work. And yes, Walt Naud a lie to federal investigators, but I tend to think of him as, in some ways,

almost a lamb that's being led to the slaughterhouse. And I think it's completely unconscionable that Trump knew that he was doing something wrong and enlisted this person who has nothing to do with any of this to be his co-conspirator in obstruction of justice, for example. That seems particularly egregious. And then finally, we can't lose sight of this.

The fact that he is fundraising at this moment off of a smear campaign against the federal government that he seeks to once again lead. That is bonkers. And the big picture of that, that this man is running for president as he seeks to impugn the U.S. government and fundraise off of it is so craven and so, I think, morally wrong. That should be focused on, I think, as we talk about all the other sins that have been committed. I know, I didn't even think about the fundraising. I mean, there's so many levels to the wrongdoing that it's hard to pick just one. Anyone else have any moments in the indictment they found particularly shocking incriminating hilarious i think we can stipulate that none of it was shocking

the one thing i will say you you're reminded of and it isn't shocking but it is i think bracing to see in print is just what a shambolic small time two-bit fucking criminal this guy is the stakes are so high and he's like and he's got he's got his his aid running around mar-a-lago with boxes trying to stay one step ahead of his own lawyers doors opening and closing like a benny hill movie i also think that like it's the perfect Trump crime. Everyone was like, what's the motive, right? Was he trying to sell secrets? Was it financial? Was it this? No, he was trying to win a pissing match with one of his former people who served in his administration in the press, a pissing match in the press. That's what he wanted to win. Yeah, 100% ego, just trying to

impugn the reputation of the former Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley. There's one place in which I have to say I'm sympathetic to Donald Trump and it is this. He would rather go to jail than clean out his closet. And I think that that's cool because he was one boring Sunday away from going through all of his old shit

and we all have that closet. I have to say, like, I was just shocked that there are audio tapes of him. Not like audio tape. And this audio was not, it's not like supporting evidence. It's him saying, like, this is secret.

Look at it. I'm not supposed to show you. I could have declassified it. I didn't. Now I can't. Isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting? Now we have a problem.

Now we have a problem. They're all laughing. And it's on audio tape. It's not great. Tommy, you're the person up here most familiar with the kind of highly classified information that Trump stole. You've also talked about how there's a legitimate debate over whether our government overclassifies information that doesn't really need to be that secret. Based on what we know from both the indictment and reporting, how serious is what Trump did from a national security perspective?

I think it's safe to say these were not overclassified documents. I think there's sort of two categories, like what we know he took and what maybe got out. We know he took secret war plans, stuff about their nuclear program, information derived from human intelligence. So CIA spies are assets all over the world. We know the president usually gets the best stuff. We know that he showed off the secret Iran war plan to some journalists. We know that he bragged to a guy from his PAC about, we think it was probably a map of Afghanistan, a classified map of Afghanistan, given the timing. And we know that there was one box kind of splayed out all over the floor with classified stuff. So those are the documents he took. It's interesting to me though, that

DOJ doesn't say in the indictment that they know they got back everything yet. In fact, it sounds like the secret Pentagon plan to attack Iran is still missing. It's still floating around out there somewhere. And we know that DOJ has no idea if any of the tens of thousands of people who are traipsed through Mar-a-Lago all the time got access to this information. We know that in 2019, there was a Chinese businesswoman, in air quotes, who was arrested for trespassing at Mar-a-Lago. When the cops searched her hotel room, they found a device that's used to find hidden cameras.

They found SIM cards. They found jump drives. They found like nine jump drives. All kinds of spy gear everywhere, right? So we know that like foreign intelligence agencies have tried to get into Mar-a-Lago. Little did they know they just had to go to the right ballroom or bathroom, like the keys to the kingdom were just there. So I think, you know, we know what he took. And we know that he exposed some of the most sensitive information the government has to disclosure, we may never

know what actually got out there. And I think that's the thing that freaks out the intel people the most. Can I just say one thing? I spoke with the former director of the CIA, John Brennan, and the intelligence community is supposed to be doing an assessment of how damaging the retention of these documents has been to U.S. national security interests. And he said, I doubt that assessment is ever going to be complete because we'll really never know. He said, if foreign intelligence agents were at Mar-a-Lago, they weren't taking the documents, they were taking pictures of them, right? And maybe they didn't take photos, who knows? But determining that conclusively is almost impossible, which is, I think, devastating for people who see

a toilet and potentially nuclear plans sitting in the same room. You would probably need a CIA asset within the Chinese intelligence service to say, to tell us back that we got this information, right? Like we need to like learn from the inside. So it could take decades. I saw in one story that Trump people are floating a possible defense that, well, at least he didn't show any of this stuff to foreign nationals, which like, it's like, number one, that's not the law. And number two, we don't know that. Like these are, keep in mind the Bedminster thing with Mark Milley and the representative from the PAC.

Those are the only things that Jackson has evidence of. Who knows what else he showed to who else? We know that in 2017, he was in the Oval Office with Sergey Lavrov and the Russian ambassador and he coughed up to them. He started bragging about getting really sensitive intelligence about ISIS office with Sergei Lavrov and the Russian ambassador, and he coughed up to them. He started bragging about getting really sensitive intelligence about ISIS, and in so doing, disclosed the fact that the Israeli intelligence services had an asset inside ISIS. Like the most

sensitive thing you could possibly just cough up to the worst possible people. I think you're being deeply unfair, John. I think it's very possible the only two times he showed the documents were the two times he was being taped. Honestly, possible, I guess. think it's very possible the only two times he showed the documents were the two times he was being taped honestly possible i guess this is this is sort of unrelated i also say that this is uh bad news for people who think donald trump had evidence of aliens we would know for sure because he wouldn't have sat on that no he would have tweeted it out. Truthed it out, sorry. So, Lovett, obviously indictment seems incredibly damning. A few challenges for prosecutors, though. I see a couple. One is getting a speedy trial that at least starts before November of 2024. Two is getting a jury in South Florida that doesn't have any Trump fans on it. And three, and maybe the biggest, is that the case has been assigned

to Trump-appointed judge Aileen Cannon, whose rulings about the FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago were so bad that they were reversed by the very conservative 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. How much does all this matter to the government's case? It matters a fair amount. There's sort of debate amongst even legal experts about how bad a draw

it is that it is Eileen Cannon. No one thinks it's good. Some people think it's not as bad as we think, and some people think it's as bad as it could possibly be. The ability to drag out all of the pretrial procedures that'll be about classified information, about the Trump lawyers accusing the DOJ of overreach and prosecutorial misconduct. They'll be about the fact that some of the evidence is privileged conversations. Those are all places where the judge can make a bunch of trouble before it goes to trial, in trial. We don't know how this person would conduct themselves. We also don't yet know that this judge will be the trial judge, right? That can change, can seek a different judge. One reason to be a little less pessimistic is you have to think that the prosecutors thought about this and how they constructed the indictment, the evidence they included, the evidence they

haven't included. Like one thought that some experts looking at the evidence that was included in the indictment are saying is these are classified documents they assume are already compromised, so they might be comfortable releasing making them part of the trial whatever we don't yet know but it's a very bad draw that this this this person is just a trump flunky and wild to think that you could be accused of a federal crime and then the judge is someone to whom you gave an amazing promotion well and it's i think it's not just that she is a Trump flunky, though that is certainly part of the problem.

But the three-judge panel from the 11th Circuit when they ruled against her, and that three-judge panel included two Trump judges and a Bush judge, and they admonished her for, quote, carving out an unprecedented exception in our law for former presidents. So one thing that, like you said,

Jack Smith can do and the special counsel can do is say, you know, well, first of all, they can request that she voluntarily recuse herself. She can decide to do that or not. The law basically, the rule is basically, if the appearance of partial, if you don't appear impartial, then you should recuse yourself.

If she doesn't do that then they can appeal it but that's a very hard one to prove but i do think that like the 11th circuit even as as very conservative as it is has already said that she is she was not impartial in that case and really threw into question her legal acumen in all of this and and i think some folks have said maybe it's a good thing that she's effectively had her wrist slap so publicly by trump appointed judges and whether that you know curbs her instinct to be forthrightly in the tank for trump the next go-round which would be this go-round but i don't know uh would require an amenability to shame right that is true short supply right and she's and she's a federal judge who has that job for life.

We've depleted the strategic shame reserves, unfortunately. Dan, we will get to the politics of the Republican reaction to the indictment in a bit. Wondering if you can respond to the substance of the criticism we've heard so far, which boils down to, to try to summarize it, A, Trump secretly declassified all this classified information when he was president, just like mind trick kind of thing. B, this is an administrative issue under the Presidential Records Act, not a national security issue under the Espionage Act. And this seems to be the most common now. This is a partisan weaponization of government because Trump got charged, even though Hillary Clinton and Joe

Biden haven't. And this is a double standard of justice and blah, blah, blah. What do you say to all your Trump loving friends and family who offer these excuses to you? I would humbly suggest that you not engage your Trump loving friends and family about this and focus more on your like MAGA curious aunt or your Biden skeptical cousin. Like that's where we should go with this. Yeah. So cousin median voter. Yeah. So let's try to take these one at a time. So on the question of whether Trump declassified them, presidents can basically declassify things with mind tricks like that is available to them. classified them. Presidents can basically declassify things with mind tricks like that is available to them. And Trump has made that argument on Twitter or on Truth Social, I guess, where you make your legal argument, whereas that where it is definitely not a crime to lie.

Trump aides have made it on cable news where it's definitely not a crime to lie. No one has made it in a court of law where it is a crime to lie. And as you pointed out, he is on tape saying that he did not declassify it so I think we dispense with that one the second one is presidential records act versus espionage act and Trump's trying to imply that Jack Smith went out of his way to charge him under the more serious statute the presidential record at records act simply says that you can't destroy records presidential records are the property of the government and

before you leave the White House you were as a soon departing president, you have to separate government records that go to the archives and your personal records, which you can keep. Trump obviously did not do that. He seems to have violated that. But that has nothing to do with the crimes he's been charged with. He has been charged with 37 felony counts related to illegally retaining classified information, national defense information, and imposing extreme measures to hold onto that information after the government has asked for it back. As you said, moving boxes to save head of things, lying to his attorneys, lying to prosecutors, encouraging other people to lie, encouraging his attorney to pluck out the damning

stuff before they turned it over to the government. So the crimes committed here are under the Espionage Act. They have nothing to do with the President's Record Act. But if we wanted to charge him with violation of the Record Act, that is also available to them. It's just not necessary. The third thing here is whether, how is this different than what Joe Biden did or Mike Pence did, which is under, they went, after we what Joe Biden did or Mike Pence did, which is under, they went, after we found out that Donald Trump had classified documents, they on their own conducted a search of their documents and they found in their possession classified documents they did not know they had. And what did they do when they found those? They turned them over to

the government. And what is interesting here, Trump obviously did not do that. He tried very hard not to turn it over. He refused to respond to them. He lied to them. He hid them. To this date, he may not have turned them all over. But the way you know that this is not some sort of differential treatment

is that Trump was not charged for any of the documents he turned over. He's only charged for the ones he refused to turn over. And he returned some that were classified. We think accidentally. Yes. He returned some boxes for which there were classified documents. He was like, oh, this is boring.

Well, right, NADA moves a bunch of boxes out, lets his lawyer go through the ones he left behind. The classified documents from that batch, they sealed in an envelope, they returned. Unbeknownst to the lawyer, there's another room full of documents. I think that he had now to move 64 boxes out and now to only return 30 to the storage unit. Exactly. Here's the simple, I mean, you're not supposed to take nuclear secrets from the White House as a souvenir when you leave.

Yeah. I think that's, I don't think the Espionage Act envisioned that. I don't think the Presidential Records Act envisioned that. And then when the government asked for the nuclear secrets that you stole from the White House back, you're not supposed to lie to them and then hide them somewhere else every president gets one one get out of jail free card to return the nuclear secrets they kept in their house that's it though that's kind of true it is i'm serious that's real i i just i i keep going back to like it's the Atlantic had a piece that was like the dumbest crime ever. And it is kind of the dumbest crime ever. Right. Especially if he wasn't actually using this for profit and it was just ego and settling political scores. And

it does sort of open your mind chamber to like if this is what he was doing with the documents, what else was he doing in the Oval Office when he was president? When this became the dumbest crime ever, it just surpassed the other dumbest crime also committed by trump when he tried to extort the ukrainians that was i thought you were going to talk about the hush money payment we got a lot now and we got a couple more coming maybe we'll see um all right we have a lot more indictment news to talk about uh right after we bring out your Attorney General, Tish James. Please welcome to the stage, your Attorney General, Tish James. Thank you for joining us. For some reason, they keep inviting me back.

I don't understand. I have a good reason why. So something happened last week. I'm sure you paid attention to it. Former President Trump charged with federal criminal indictment. His dance card looks like it's getting kind of full. You are scheduled to go to trial in your own civil case against the President

in October. October 2nd. But who's counting the days? The special counsel has asked for a speedy trial for this. Is this going to intersect with your case at all? How is everybody going to manage the calendar here? So in all likelihood, I believe that my case, as well as D.A. Bragg and the Georgia case, will unfortunately have to be adjourned pending the outcome of the federal case.

So it all depends upon the outcome of the federal case so it all depends upon the scheduling of this particular case I know there's going to be a flood of flurry of motions motions to dismiss discovery issues all of that so it really all depends obviously all of us want to know what this judge judge cannon is going to do and whether or not she's going to delay this particular case are you concerned about that um I think everyone is concerned about that. So obviously it will depend upon the scheduling. You're one of the few people that has been able to question Donald Trump under oath.

You did so, I believe, for seven hours, which is hats off. And he answered all those questions without pleading the fifth, which is something he traditionally does. That was the second time, the first time he took break. Exactly. And I know you can't talk about, you know, what happened, but I wonder if you could tell us about any insight you gained about the former president

and how he is dealing with the legal peril he finds himself in. So, Alex, you know I really can't talk about the deposition. But he did attend, and he did answer the questions. OK, well, that's that's that. He has been. But he did not look at me. Well, OK, that's a good segue to my second question, which is he has been he's really singled out black prosecutors. You, Alvin Bragg, the Fulton County D.A.,, Fannie Willis, and he's called all of you racists. Do you have an opinion on why the former president is calling particularly and specifically black prosecutors racist? I have no idea. But he's also attacking Jack Smith as well. As deranged, but not racist. As deranged, but I guess. With a fake name. Exactly. So listen, he can call me all

kinds of names. That really doesn't matter to me. The reality is, is that our case is based on the facts and the law. And I look forward to seeing him on October 2nd. Some of Trump's supporters are calling for violence implicitly, explicitly, and some have even called for an uprising to defend him ahead of his court appearance in Miami, be appearing in court here in October. Is New York taking precautions to deal with the threat of violence? Is your office receiving threats? What precautions are you taking? So let me just say that I'm really concerned obviously because they are feeding into all of this anger that unfortunately currently exists in our society.

And we find ourselves more polarized than ever, I think, since the Civil War. And it's rather unfortunate. And I'm very much concerned that individuals, lone wolves, will obviously resort to violence. And so here in the city of New York and in the state of New York, we're taking precautions. I have more law enforcement around me these days. Individuals have threatened my life but I will not be paralyzed by fear by no means. I'm from Brooklyn. But we obviously should be concerned because of what he represents and he represents a threat to our national security and to the safety of us as a whole, but more importantly, to

all of those men and women who bravely are serving this country and representing this country. I'm more concerned about them here and on foreign soil. And so I would wish everyone would just tone it down and just recognize what is at stake. And what is at stake, my friends, is our democracy. And that's why it's so critically important that all of us stay together and that we recognize the risk that he poses to our democracy and that obviously individuals

stay focused on a lot of the issues. And all you have to do is read the indictment, it speaks for itself. And my complaint as well speaks for itself. And nothing else needs to be said. Can I just ask? Because I think the fact that these prosecutors are human beings with lives and families often gets lost in the shuffle. And the president is out there talking at length about Jack Smith, as you point out, being deranged, talking about his wife, talking about people's

family and their children. What does it mean for your life since you've launched a $250 million civil lawsuit that basically aims to end the Trump organization's ability to do business in New York, which in many ways, I think people say, will end the Trump organization writ large. I mean, how has that affected you as a person? So, yes, we are seeking $250 million in damages and in fines. Yes, we are seeking to ban the Trump organization, Mr. Trump and his children and individuals who served on the board. Yes, we have a monitor in place because we were concerned that he was going to restructure the corporation. We have a monitor in place right now to ensure

that they are in compliance. Am I concerned about my personal safety? I don't think about it. The reality is I've got a job to do each and every day. And again, I cannot be paralyzed by fear. I've got to wake up each and every day with this fire in my belly to represent the interests of the citizens of the state of New York to serve this state and to continue to do my job. I don't really think about Mr. Trump each and every day. I think about the work that I've got to do. He thinks about you though. I think about the work that I've got to do. He thinks about you, though. I know that. But yeah, I've got a job to do. I have a job to do. So I'm not, yeah, I'm just not gonna worry about that. You have made addressing gun violence in the state of New York a huge priority

of yours. The Supreme Court of the United States has made it much harder for states to aggressively try to keep guns out of the hands of certain individuals. Recently, you filed suit against the company that manufactured an accessory used on the gun used in the Buffalo, New York mass shooting. Talk to me a little bit about what you're trying to accomplish with that suit and how that fits into your broader strategy to address gun violence. The name of the company is called Mean Arms. And basically what it did, it is aided that individual who was radicalized on social media. And basically they created a lock for guns and they said it was permanent when in fact it was not. And so they advertise how you basically can remove the lock. We thought

it was permanent and in fact it is not. and you need the lock to have your gun be legal in the state of New York Is that right and it and individuals he the company basically? Provided instructions to individuals to remove the lock and this individual as you know Fired and killed ten innocent people at the top supermarket in Buffalo And he was only allowed to do that because he had this device. And that's why we were taking action. With respect to gun violence, you know, I've been involved in addressing gun violence from my days as a city council member to my days as a public advocate, and now as the attorney general. And I'm happy to say that not only, you know, do we just talk about gun violence, but we actually use the power of my office to

engage in litigation. So we have sued individuals who basically produce what they call ghost guns, which are guns that you can make basically from the internet. Ten companies that sell ghost guns here in the state of New York, we were able to stop them from selling those guns to individuals who had no right to have them. Two, we've done a number of takedowns. We've removed guns, we've removed drugs, fentanyl, we've removed dangerous drugs that unfortunately are illegal in the state of New York, and we do buybacks. And so several weeks ago, around three weeks ago, we did a statewide buyback. And on one given day We were able to remove

3,000 guns off of the street of the streets of the state of New York and that includes The ar-15s as well as some ghost guns since I have served as Attorney General in total. We have removed 7,000 guns we've taken seizure money from those individuals We've taken seizure money from those individuals. Taken seizure money from individuals who are engaging in illegal activity, and those funds and resources are used, again, for these buybacks. And so we'll give individuals $500 for an AR-15 with no questions asked. And we continue to do that all across the state. asked. And we continue to do that all across the state. So it's litigation, it's advocacy,

and of course, it's through enforcement measures as well. On the topic of violence, your office recently filed a lawsuit against anti-abortion activists in New York. And it seeks to create a 30-foot buffer outside of all abortion providers in New York State. Given the fact that blue states are increasingly the only places in America where women are ensured access to their own bodily autonomy and reproductive freedom, are you concerned about increasing violence targeting abortion providers, given the sharp divide between red and blue states in this country? So this particular group, organization, unfortunately is not only active here

in the state of New York, but active in states where reproductive rights obviously are respected. And here in the state of New York, reproductive rights are protected. And this organization would pretend that they were patients go into clinics and basically disrupt the clinics they would basically glue themselves and lock themselves into clinics and deny individuals reproductive their access to reproductive rights they particularly focused on Planned Parenthood and it's

important that everyone knows that Planned Parenthood does more than just abortions individuals go to Planned Parenthood, and it's important that everyone knows that Planned Parenthood does more than just abortions. Individuals go to Planned Parenthood for cancer screening, for STDs, and so this organization said that they were committed to stopping abortions in the state of New York, and I said, not on my watch. So we've gone to court. We've gone to court, and we are filing criminal charges against them and they will unfortunately, they will fortunately be held accountable and serve criminal sentences. Right now they're completing their sentence in Michigan and then they have to come to New York to answer to our charges, to our case here, our charges here.

And I'm confident that we will convict them and that they, in fact, will go to jail. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for everything you do. Everyone, please give it up for your Attorney General. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Alex. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Alex. When we come back, more news. All right. Let's talk about some more news. Specifically, the politics of the fact that Donald Trump is still the frontrunner for the Republican nomination by a large margin. A CBS poll that was taken over the weekend

shows Trump leading Ron DeSantis 61% to 23%, with every other candidate under 5 percent. Sorry to the Tim Scott and Mickey Haley fans here. The announcements did not give them the bump they had hoped. Watch that space. A lot of virgin ground for Tim Scott to explore. I don't care. Boomy, I don't care. Boomy, I don't care.

Same poll also says that 80% of Republican primary voters think that if Trump is convicted of a crime, he should still be able to serve as president. Most Republican politicians, including his primary opponents, refuse to condemn Trump for stealing nuclear secrets. Many of them did so before they even knew it was in the indictment. There were some like, you know, DeSantis and Pence who were trying to have it both ways.

They were trying to attack Biden and Garland for the double standard of justice while still insinuating maybe that Trump's case might be legitimate. Then there are exceptions who've criticized Trump. Asa Hutchinson, Chris Christie, and Rhino Libcuck Bill Barr, Trump's attorney general, who said this on Fox over the weekend. I think the counts under the Espionage Act, that he willfully retained those documents, are solid counts.

If even half of it is true, then he's toast. I mean, it's a pretty, it's a very detailed indictment and it's very, very damning. And this idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt, is ridiculous. The government's documents, they're official records, they're not his personal records. Battle plans for an attack on another country or Defense Department documents about our capabilities are in no universe Donald J. Trump's personal documents. This idea that the president has complete authority to declare any document personal is obvious. It's facially ridiculous. These are official documents. It's inarguable.

The president's daily brief provided by the intelligence community is not Donald J. Trump's personal document. Bury it. Bill Barr, ladies and gentlemen. The only time Bill Barr is ever going to get an applause. Such conflicted applause out there. The only time Bill Barr is ever going to get an applause. Such conflicted applause out there. Can we get him as the judge? We'll get him as the judge. So, Alex, we've talked a lot about this, but I'd love to get your thoughts. Why are these candidates going through all the trouble of running for president against Donald Trump

if they won't even try to make a case to Republican voters that Bill Barr just made, former Trump official. As terrifying as it is to enter the mind chamber of Vivek Ramaswamy, I will do it for you. I don't know why Vivek Ramaswamy is running. I don't know why Chris Christie is running. I have a sense that, okay, first of all, to run for president requires a healthy amount of self-regard. OK, first of all, to run for president requires a healthy amount of self-regard. Some would say narcissism. And I think each one of them have these particular personal motivations. I think Chris Christie feels a lot of shame for his just catastrophic loss as a candidate in 2016 and the way in which he was completely rolled by Donald Trump over and over again. in 2016 and the way in which he was completely rolled by Donald Trump over and over again,

almost, as you guys want to point out, killed by Donald Trump, contracting COVID during Trump debate prep, which is what a way to go that would have been. And I think this is his sort of personal rehabilitation tour. And I think he also thinks he has a role to play in fixing the Republican Party and getting rid of Trump. I don't know if that's going to happen, but he's not going to mince his words if he ever makes it to a debate stage with Trump, right? So I think he has at least more than anyone else, a specific purpose that is beyond himself. As far as Mike Pence, here's a hint. If they erect gallows in your name, they're probably not going to vote for you. Just, I mean, I'm not a political strategist, but that seems like the one, two, three of launching a presidential

campaign. I think he has a sort of, you know, he's a deeply religious man. I think he believes he is some kind, there's a little bit of a mess, a messiah complex, I would say. Like he is a very much OG white Christian nationalist. And I think, you know, this is his time. So that could be the reason, although I constantly don't, his is the most perplexing campaign of all of them. And Ron DeSantis, you know, Ron DeSantis was called the resume. That was his nickname from his friends when he was in, I think, law school. This is someone who has checked all the boxes. And, see the presidency as the next stage of like, what do you do after you've been the governor of Florida?

You go be president. And I don't think it's anything more, I don't think he's particularly animated by policy or even ideology. I think his candidacy and his spirit seems to be driven more by the desire to achieve and amass power. And I think that's reflected in his skills on the campaign trail, which are not, I wouldn't call him Mr. Personality. Here's the thing, though, like we,

we've all been on campaigns, we know that like, we, Ron DeSantis didn't have to come out and be like, you know, Donald Trump needs to go to jail. This is a searing indictment. And he could have done like a sort of an indirect hit on Donald Trump, right? He could have done that, like just nothing. Well, but like, look at the numbers. He's strengthened among the Republican base

that they have to win over in a primary. I know. And like, you can't even open the door to criticism. It's an impossible tightrope to walk. But that's, I think resume is the right term because what he's doing is what makes sense on paper.

He's seen the numbers. The numbers make clear. Donald Trump is very popular. The base of the party, the people he'll need in some measure believe this is a political prosecution. But every single person that is coming to Donald Trump's aid while trying to beat Donald Trump in a primary lack both the confidence in themselves

as candidates and lack the imagination to believe it is possible for them to persuade the group of people they need to come to their side while criticizing Donald Trump. They lack the imagination and strategy to move the party away from him. Which is why the party will never move, right? Like there's this chicken or egg problem where these candidates look at the voters and they see that poll and they say, oh, they're for Trump, so I can't say anything and I can't piss them off. But these voters, the only information that they're consuming is telling them that Donald Trump is great and they're not hearing the other side of the story. So no one's even trying to make the case to these voters, the only information that they're consuming is telling them that Donald Trump is great. And they're not hearing the other side of the story.

So no one's even trying to make the case to these voters because they're not listening to Positive America. What? Probably not watching MSNBC. Not yet. And so like, I imagine there's probably a bunch of Fox viewers that watch Bill Barr and were like, what? What is he talking about? It's the same thing that happened in 2016. It's a collective action problem.

We wanted them to go first. No one wants to jump first. It's just going to be exhausting to watch. I think it's a different, it's slightly different in 2016. There is a collective action problem, but you do have to establish who you are and be known to the voters before you take on Trump.

In 2016, all of those candidates were well known to the voters. Ted Cruz, Jeb In 2016, all of those candidates were well known to the voters. Ted Cruz, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, even Chris Christie. And the voters said, no, thank you. These candidates fully misunderstand their place in the race. They do not understand that they are long shots, even Ron DeSantis. And you need to adopt a high variance strategy to win when you're a long shot. So they're just deciding to lose quietly instead of lose loudly. But I do understand why you don't go after Donald Trump right this second until you have at least

introduced yourself to like 12 people, right? Which they have not yet done. Yeah. Alex mentioned Vivek Brahmswamy. He said that he would pardon Trump if he wins the presidency. Does anyone want to make the case that you could win the Republican nomination without promising that you'll pardon Trump if he wins the presidency. Does anyone want to make the case that you could win the Republican nomination without promising that you'll pardon Trump if you're president?

Yeah, I got this. You want to hear it? No, go. This shit is easy. No, I will not pardon President Trump because President Trump is innocent. And this is another example of you in the liberal media trying to get me to concede that President Trump is guilty and thus would need a pardon. We live in the greatest country on earth, John. And there's no jury that's going to look at what my president did and decide that he is guilty of a crime. What are you applauding? I'm a demagogue now. Thank you, Ron DeSantis. You're welcome. That's better than anything Ron DeSantis has done on this show.

Yeah, by a mile. By a mile. I would make the, I agree with everything Tommy said. And I'm alarmed at how he did that. It's like everyone's got a demagogue inside them. Okay, just between us, I currently have a Mike Pence tramp stamp on my lower back

because I lost a bet. You'll learn about it later next week. Dan, you're up. I would make the case that you can't win the nomination if you promise to pardon Trump. If you promise to? Yes.

Because what I think all of these candidates don't understand is that strength is the axis on which Republican power is accumulated. And so if you Trump wins because he seems like the dominating figure. So if you just decide to become his personal servant, like who's going to pardon him and give him a Diet Coke, you can't look strong. And so I think you have to do. I think Chris Christie, who I know is every resistance liberals favorite Republican candidate. He actually answered it right, which is

I'm going to wait until the case is done and I'm going to look at it. But promising now makes you look weak and you cannot beat Trump if you look weak. I think you can get away with saying, let's see how the case plays out. And also, I'm not going to have to worry about it because I'm going to win. How about someone saying

I'm going to win? No one will believe that. That's what I'm saying. None of these people will be like I'm going to win, so about someone saying I'm going to win? No one will believe that. That's what I'm saying. None of these people will be like, I'm going to win so it's not going to be a big deal. None of them will say that. Also, just keep in mind nothing definitive is being said by any of these Republican candidates on literally anything because the Republican Party is bereft of an actual platform at this point.

What does it stand for? It's very, and I say this, I can't tell you what the party platform, even on a federal abortion ban, they know it's political suicide for them, so they're going to try and avoid the question a la your candidate, Tim Scott, and do everything in their power not to say anything.

I mean, am I wrong about it? Are you wrong about Tim Scott's? No. No. You're bullish on Tim Scott's chances you love him one podcast one time I'm like what you say just keep an eye on this watch all I said was watch this fucking space words matter words matter John words matter America heard you anyway the point is the point is I don't think they're gonna the point is, I don't think they're going to say anything about anything. I don't think they're going to say anything about foreign policy. I don't think they're going to say anything about.

I mean, look at the debt ceiling talks. Those are the people who are in Congress who are Republicans. They don't know anything about policy. All they want to do is ban like trans people from existing and and and make sure that, you know, slavery isn't taught in Florida schools, right? Like, it is hard to say, oh, I am very highly skeptical of anybody articulating a position on anything, including and especially the pardoning of Donald Trump. Well, Trump has had a lot to say about Donald Trump's indictment.

He was, you know, over the weekend, he did what any good lawyer would advise. They're a criminal defendant facing multiple indictments. He held a bunch of public events where he spoke extensively about the charges against him. Here he is at a rally in Georgia over the weekend. Every time I fly over a blue state, I get a subpoena. We want him before the grand jury in this whole fake indictment they don't even once mention the presidential records act which is

really the ruling act which this case falls under 100% because they want to use something called the espionage act doesn't that sound terrible espionage I mean actually I thought it was, I was impressed. I looked, it looked so orderly and nice. Somehow somebody turned over one of the boxers. Did you see that? I said, I wonder who did that. Did the FBI do that?

Jack Smith. What do you think his name used to be? I don't know. Does anybody ever? Jack Smith. Sounds so innocent. He's deranged. And his wife is even more of a Trump hater.

I wish her a lot of luck, but he's, he's a bad Trump hater and she of a Trump hater. I wish her a lot of luck, but he's he's a bad Trump hater and she's a Trump hater. These criminals cannot be rewarded. They must be defeated. You have to defeat them. Have to defeat them. Because in the end, they're not coming after me. They're coming after you. And I'm just standing in their way.

Here I am. I'm standing in their way and I always will be there you have it um so i mentioned the number in that poll love it that was 80 of republican voters think he should be able to serve as president if convicted in the same poll 92 of republican voters said that they would rather trump talk about his plans for the country than gripes about his indictments or the 2020 election. What do you make of that? And do you think there's any risk in Donald Trump making this campaign about whether or not he goes to jail? So I pulled the same numbers from the same poll. So first of all, there's been a bunch of polling. And it's not just that Trump's leading in the Republican field. It's

how strong that is among so many different kinds of Republicans and Republicans who'd say they care about different things. Republicans who say they care about honesty, Trump's their person. Republicans who care about it, he's their person. And so when I see that number, it feels less like a weakness and more like a bunch of people hoping a beloved grandpa will tell a different story at Thanksgiving. You know, like, oh, that's our Trump. We love him. And there's no getting us to one of these other fucking wackadoos. But I do wish he would talk about something else for a while. I'm a little bored, but I'm not switching. That's how it feels looking at the polling. Republicans who care about document retention policy. Trump is their guy.

He retained the shit out of those documents. Tommy, we've heard Trump frame this indictment as an apocalyptic battle. He has also told his supporters to show up in Miami and fight. He has promised to, if he wins, appoint a special prosecutor to go after Joe Biden, his family, basically any of Trump's political enemies.

Carrie Lake's telling people if they want to convict Trump, they have to come through her and all the other NRA members. Republicans in Congress are promising retribution. There's MAGA media goons making violent threats. Should we be making a big deal about the threat of violence, the possibility for another January 6th-like incident, or is this just giving these people more attention? I mean, I think we should be pretty concerned. The last time when the FBI searched Mar-a-Lago a couple days later, this was last year, I believe, some guy in Ohio went to an FBI field office in Cincinnati with an assault weapon and a nail gun and tried to shoot through the glass. And when he couldn't, he tried to run away and there was a firefight and this guy was killed. But like this was a violent act. And this individual both had posted on social media about killing FBI agents and attended the January 6th insurrection.

So clearly these words matter. I think that Trump seems to be escalating the rhetoric, not dialing it down. I think that line at the end there that we just saw, which is, you know, I'm the only thing holding them back from going after you is really kind of the scariest piece of this. His surrogates in Congress on right wing radio are saying far more intense things. So, yeah, I think it's very frightening and something people should be talking about. I'm glad, actually, there's a big New York Times report over the weekend about some of this rhetoric. People are paying attention this time. Yeah. Dan, that brings us to Joe Biden and the Democrats and what they should do about this, what they should say. I saw a report that, you know, the DNC had advised some Democratic members over the weekend to not really talk about this much. That, as you imagine, got some people on

Twitter a little upset. But it does raise the question, if Trump wins the nomination, how does Joe Biden handle the fact that he is running against a twice-indicted criminal defendant? Does he talk about it? How central does he make it to the message? What would you advise Biden and the Democrats to do in 24 about this? Think about how weird this is going to be, is that if Donald Trump is the nominee and he is in the middle of or preparing for a criminal trial on 37 felony counts related to violations of the Espionage Act, his chief opponent, the

sitting president, cannot and should not say anything about it because the entity bringing that case is the president's own Justice Department. So for reasons of law and politics, he has to sort of no comment it. So he can't mention it. It's going to be the biggest news story in the world. He can't mention it at a rally. His campaign can't put in an ad. If a junior press person on the Biden campaign in Alaska tweets about it, the norms police are going to freak out, right? And everyone's going to complain, like both sides, everything. So it's going to be this very weird thing that you can never be mentioned. But because it's the biggest news story in the land, you don't have to talk about it. What you have to do is to have an overall message narrative that accounts for it without saying it.

And I think what this comes down to is going to be that in the end, Donald Trump, because he's already implied he's going to pardon himself. He's already said he's going to pardon the people who helped him try to overthrow the government on January 6th. And that he is running for president, not to help you, not to make your life easier, to make it easier to go to college, pay for gas and groceries. He's running to help himself and his political allies. And that is what he's doing. It is all about Trump. And I think that has to be the core of the Biden message. It's actually why Joe Biden is uniquely qualified to be the person who runs against Donald Trump, because they are the exact polar opposites of each other and how they think about the world. So you're a no on the lock-em-up chants at the rallies?

Well, look, I'm a no on Joe Biden leading the lock-em-up chants. Got it. But if the people there want to do it... Wait, do you have something you want to say about it? No. We don't want to do it. Yeah, I think that's right. I...

As you were saying that, I think that's right. As you were saying that, I was just thinking, Trump will probably try to, if there are debates between Biden and Trump, if it happens, Trump will probably try to bait Biden into talking about this. He'll say, you're trying to lock me up. You're trying to,

and he's going to try to pull him into this. And then give him a bowl of... He'll look at me and say, bub, you're trying to lock yourself up. Good line, good line. There we to lock yourself up. Good line. Good line. There we go. That was good.

That was good, Dan. When we come back, Hillary Clinton. She's been First Lady, Secretary of State, author, senator from the great state of New York, and most importantly, a podcast host. Please welcome back to the show, Hillary Clinton. Welcome to the show. Thank you, John. Glad to be here.

I just want to say, I don't get nervous for these people anymore. When I see you, I am 22 years old again. I know, I know. He worked for me when he was 22 years old. And did a great job. Let's try to keep this honest. So, Secretary Clinton, on Thursday, the Department of Justice indicted former President Donald Trump. You're kidding! I know. Oh.

Well, if you haven't seen... Did you have any reaction to the news, or are you keeping your powder dry in case you get jury duty in New York? Well, you know, John, I have a lot of reactions to it. And I think the best reaction publicly is, you know, let's see it unfold and see what happens, right? Well, I think that's a perfect answer. So we have a shirt for you and says, just in case you want, it says totally impartial potential juror. And we thought, you know, you don't have to wear it, but just in case. This is so great. I love this.

It's like a totally chill thing to wear in a jury selection. But, you know, you even put his nickname for me down at the bottom. Crooked. That's perfect. That's exactly right. Now, on to the matter at hand. Can we go to this photo, please? Is this how you would store top secret documents?

Are they perhaps a little too close uh to the commode yeah i thought that was in dangerous territory right yeah yeah but but uh so republicans have taken to the airwaves uh in response to these charges and they've come to one conclusion we must prosecute hillary clinton uh yeah when in doubt right right uh um republicans claim that you got off you did the same thing and got off scott free why did your friend jim comey let you off so easy that that's a really good question i can't figure that one out um you know i do think it's it's uh odd let's just say to the point of being absurd um how that is their only response you know they refuse to read the indictment they refuse to engage with the facts. There's nothing new about that. And what they refuse to admit is, you know, this is

on a track about him, not about anybody else, no matter how much they try to confuse people and how much they try to, you know, raise extraneous issues. And it's going to be fascinating, I guess, in a bizarre and sad way to watch them spin themselves up. If you watched any of the news programs this weekend, I mean, their efforts to defend this man are truly beyond anything that I ever thought possible in our country. I mean, it is so profoundly disturbing how this could have been the break. This could have been the opportunity to say, you know, thank you so much for everything you've done for us. We really appreciate it, you know. But this is kind of serious, and so we're not going to, you know, continue to defend you. But no, they're all in again.

That's what the psychology of this is so hard for me to fully grasp. Yeah, I mean, to your point, it does seem like Donald Trump is leading in every poll. Every bad thing that happens to him seems to sort of solidify his hold on the base and members of Congress. And ironically,

him being so corrupt and being such a venal, awful person makes it hard for Democrats to run against him because there's so many different avenues we could all be taken. You experienced this firsthand in 2016. If he is the Republican nominee, do you have any advice for President Biden about how to focus a message against him? You know, I was listening to your previous discussion about this, and I think you have it exactly right. It seems likely right now that he will end up the nominee. I mean, something can happen between now and when they start actually voting in the primary. But the Republican rules, as you know, favor winner take all. So the more people who get in against him, his chances actually go up. And then the response that we've seen in polling from Republicans

suggests that they're going to stick with him, that it's more of a cult than a political party at this point, and they're going to stick with their leader. So I think that actually President Biden is in a very strong position to run a campaign that doesn't have to talk about him. But I think other Democrats should and other, you know, concerned Americans should be asking hard questions. but to talk about, you know, the kind of future that builds on his accomplishments. You know, I have said now for months that Joe Biden had a remarkable first two years as president. I don't think he gets the credit for it. And in part, that's because he's not a performer. He's a producer.

You know, he gets up every day and he goes to work for the American people. And so, you know, in a time where in politics, not just in our country, but elsewhere in the world, entertainment is really important. And the shock factor and the insult factor and the scapegoating and the finger pointing, you know, he's really not doing it. And he is very careful about how he tries to present himself. I think that contrast is important. His accomplishments are important. And trying to get people to focus on, okay, when the circus leaves town, what's your life going to be like? How are you going to feel about your future and your family's future

and the big challenges that we have here at home and around the world? And I think that's the way to present a strong incumbent campaign against Trump. Speaking of corrupt authoritarian narcissists, I want to ask you about Vladimir Putin. I heard you tell this unbelievable story about a conversation you had with Vladimir Putin several years back, where he told you about his parents. Putin's father fought in the siege of Stalingrad, for those who don't know, is one of the most horrific battles of World War II. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people died. And I was hoping you could just tell that story and how you make sense of a man like Vladimir Putin, who hears about this

experience from his father of being sort of thrust into a military meat grinder, and then does the exact same thing to his own people in Bakhmut, in Chechnya, you know, over the years as leader? You know, Tommy, it was a really extraordinary moment. You know, he started attacking me back in 2011, and he accused me of being responsible for Russians demanding more freedom and, you know, free and fair elections because they'd had a series of elections in the fall of 2011 that were, you know, so rigged that you could watch it being rigged on TV. That's what Russians were responding to. So fast forward, there's a big meeting of a number of nations called APEC. It's the Asian Pacific Economic Community Meeting, and it's held every year. And I went representing our country. And I wanted to talk to Putin one more time about Syria, and he wouldn't talk to me.

And so then we're about ready to go into the formal dinner, and I get pulled aside for like literally five minutes where I'm telling him, you know, we had a deal on a ceasefire a few months ago. We need to reinstate that deal, and he's looking bored like, you know, why are you talking to me about stopping the killing of Syrians? And then we went into dinner. Now, the last thing Vladimir Putin wanted was to sit next to me at dinner. So the protocol was he had to sit next to me because the United States had hosted the meeting before and on his other side was Indonesian president hosting the next meeting. So I'm sitting there thinking, well, you know, I got to think of something to talk to him about.

He won't talk to me about Syria, that's clear. So I said, you know, Mr. President, before I came, I stopped in St. Petersburg for some meetings, and I went to the museum commemorating the siege of Stalingrad. And, you know, I just wanted to, you know, tell you how much it meant to me that I actually had a chance to see that. All of a sudden he got, you know, sort of sat up straighter, got kind of interested. He said, let me tell you a story. And here's what he told me. He said, you know, my father was in the siege. He said, you know, my father was in the siege, and they would be on the front lines for three or four days, and they would get, you know, some time off.

So he had time off, Putin's father. Putin's father was walking back to their apartment, and he walked past a pile of bodies because they were trying to prevent plague and other diseases from decimating the population even further. So they had body collectors, and they were collecting bodies to burn, to bury. So as Putin's father is walking by this pile of bodies, he looks down, and he sees what he believes to be his wife's leg with her shoe on, which he recognized.

And he just reacts. He goes over. He starts trying to pull this body out of the pile of bodies. And the body collector is screaming at him, stop it, stop it, you know, get away from there. And he says, no, no, that's my wife. That's my wife. I know it's my wife. And he keeps trying to pull her out. And finally, the body collector said, well, just take her, take her body, but then you have to return it. You have to get rid of the body. So he took her, and she was alive. And he took her back to their apartment and nursed her back to health. And then a few years later, Vladimir Putin was born. So he tells me this story, and I'm sitting there thinking, wow, this explains so much. Think about this story, and think about the trauma that his family and so many Russian families went through. And in some people, that kind of trauma makes them feel like never again, no war.

We have to be more compassionate and caring. We have to help people. And in some people, it makes them think, I'm going to be on the side that wins. The people who die are going to be the people that I don't want to see living or doing, because we're going to have a different future. And when you think about Putin and the way that for so many years his absolute prevailing conviction has been the need to restore Russian greatness. He thought the collapse of the Soviet Union was a catastrophe in his own words. a catastrophe in his own words. And it's almost like he found Mother Russia dying when he took over,

and he's going to bring it back to life. And bringing it back to life means asserting its power, its domination, its strength, and taking over everywhere you can people who are weaker, starting in Russia itself, then moving on to Chechnya, and now moving on to Georgia in 2008, then moving first to Ukraine in 2014, and then now what we see happening there. And it just spoke to me about what was really going on in, you know, Putin's

mind and what we're now facing in Ukraine and what we would face if we don't stop him in Ukraine. Just an incredible window into Putin's mindset. I'm just letting the, I'm changing tacks so hard there's going to be weather in this room. Before we let you go, we do have to get you on the record on some of the issues

that really don't matter. So now it's time for a game we call Queen for a Day. Now, you haven't seen these questions. Really haven't. But today we have a twist. Tommy hasn't seen them either. So does he have to answer some?

He has to ask some of you. Exercise discretion, Tommy. Yes, I will. All right, I'll kick us off. You can only see one Broadway show over and over for the rest of your life. Do you choose Funny Girl, Wicked, Chicago, or Hamilton? Hamilton. Really?

I'd have said Wicked. I'd have said Wicked. Tommy, you're up. Again, Tommy is seeing this for the first time. If you were to meet me on the street, you'd say, Republican, 100%. Take it to the bank. Look at him.

How can we use this power for good? Where should I infiltrate? Where do you think we... Where should we send him? Look at him. Look at this. Look at that shirt. I think he's doing a good job infiltrating.

Maybe I already thought of that. That's good. Maybe he's coming from the other side. Next question. As a journalist, I have to ask this. There was a story. It's going to be tough to look at you while I say this. There was a story that someone took a poop in the aisle next to your seats during a Broadway performance of Some Like It Hot.

Were you relieved when you found that it wasn't personal or is that somehow worse? Well, I didn't know it happened until after I found... Somebody wrote about it. But at the time, you know, I was just sitting in my seat watching what was happening because I thought it was a fun, funny play. So I didn't even know it happened. That says something about me, I guess.

I just think, I guess, you know what? You've waded through a lot of shit in your life. What's new, right? Tommy, you're up. She was the Secretary of State, everybody. On your show Gutsy, virtually all the brave people are women. Is that a coincidence or an oversight? No, that was deliberate. It's obviously deliberate, Tommy. Thank you for answering directly.

It's a strange question. Are you auditioning, John? I might. I might. You know, backstage, Secretary Clinton said, well, you said, I like the skirt, but... I wasn't sure it went with the shoes. Okay. That's fine.

See, that's the kind of... That's the Secretary of State that just wanted, in a diplomatic fashion, to get me on my heels. You know, make me nervous before you came out so that you could win on stage. Wow. It's withering. You were captured on a surveillance camera ordering a Chipotle burrito bowl in 2015. Chipotle famously experienced an E. coli outbreak later that year.

There are two kinds of people in the world. People who steered clear of Chipotle for a while after the outbreak just to be safe, or people who felt post-outbreak Chipotle is probably the safest it will ever be. Do you see the glass as half empty or half E. coli? the glass is half empty or half a coli? You know, I was just happy they got back on their feet, so to speak.

Tommy? You have two buttons in front of you. One will instantly erase every American student debt, while the other will cause Donald Trump to shrink an imperceptible amount every day so that by November he fits in Joe Biden's shirt pocket. You can only press one button. Student debt. All right. We have one more question for you. The State Department released the following email. We

have it on the screen. You sent it on Friday, March 5th, 2010 to Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs, Richard Verma, and then Deputy Chief of Staff, Jake Sullivan, my old pal. The subject line was, gefilte fish. The body of the email read, where are we on this? So where were we on this? You know, that's why, if anybody actually read my emails instead of just listened all the talk about it this was a serious problem that we had to solve there was a real difficult challenge with getting one of the manufacturers of gefilte fish in Israel

the appropriate permitting to be able for them to export their fish in time for Passover. See, that's why it's bullshit that you weren't president. Ladies and gentlemen, Secretary of State Hillary Goddard Clinton. Thank you so much. Please welcome to the stage the incredibly funny Roy Wood Jr. How are you? Thanks for being here. Right there. Yeah, this is my microphone. I'll take this one. How you been? How you doing?

I'm okay. You see Hillary Clinton? I'm okay. Yeah, yeah, I spoke briefly back there. That, what she was wearing, that's some nice fabrics. Yes. You ever look at politicians up close, like the fabrics? It's not, it's not Macy's.

It's not Macy's. It's some nice stuff. Sometimes you get some nice fabrics. She got security back there. You just can't walk up and go, ooh. I don't think even if there wasn't security, you shouldn't be touching other people's fabrics. You should need a Secret Service agent to stop you.

It's like Macy's. It's like NASA. It's like, how could you not? It's like one of those, yeah, it's a future. Yeah, for sure. Future fabrics. Breathes. You headlined the Correspondent Center this year, and you did an incredible job. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's famously a tough job

because you're following the President of the United States. Yes. What surprised you about being up there, and what did you think of Joe Biden's set? Joe Biden crushed. Which is not a good thing. Because as the comedian coming after the person who's not the comedian, who's as hilarious as a comedian. Now my job just became ten times harder.

He was doing bits. And while he's up there, I'm texting with my my writers i got four or five writers that are in there we had six writers but like four or five are like in the room and we're texting the whole time the show is going on watching a room they're watching twitter so we can be as up in the moment with the set and biden did two bits that just were funnier that he had a rupert murdoch joke that was just way better than my Rupert Murdoch joke. Hey, come on. Don't say that.

It was. And also, Biden's age is closer to Rupert's. I don't know if anybody's close to Rupert in age, but it was more of a like old on old crime type joke. Right, right, right. Whereas I come up after him, I don't have the same place to call Rupert. Because Biden's already done it. And it's funnier because Biden's older. Because Biden's old.

Correct. They're both old. So I'm texting, what are we going to replace Rupert with? And then it's like another take. Fauci's in the room. We need a Fauci joke. Come on. All while Jill Biden is just in your ear talking about Alabama barbecue and stuff.

Is that what happened? We were talking like most of this. Oh, not when Biden was up there, but like the entire time of the dinner. It's weird because you are as a performer. It's one of the most like I the only thing I can compare it to a showtime at the Apollo in 2001. In terms of the stakes of the performance. one in terms of the stakes of the performance and while you're trying to focus and think about this thing and you're not trying to be rude but it's the first lady how could you not have a conversation with the first she's right there kareem john p.s right here this is the first black lgb to the

oh wait excuse me a second vouchy i need a pouchy joke bill barr Barr is in the room. Yeah, see, Alabama barbecue is better than North Carolina barbecue. Like, that's what's happening. Leave me alone, Vice President Kamala Harris. I've got a set to do. Yeah. This is my big night. You can't do that. You just have to go, yeah, it's an honor.

Did I just see Caitlyn Jenner in there? There's also, I'd say, one of the most sort of touching moments i've seen in a in any stand-up at the correspondence which when you we talked about your mom being there yeah she must have been proud yeah i she she doesn't she's a woman that doesn't really like the spotlight she's not big on that but you know the more we looked at what we wanted to talk about with regards to local news and local media and how much of a role local media plays in breaking stories. I mean, just today, The Athletic just reassigned a lot of reporters and going to take them off of beats that are very, very important in this country. So my mother was one of the people in Mississippi in the 1960s that helped to integrate Delta State University she was the first wave of black people that were part of that and they went through hell

and the only reason we know that they went through hell is because of local reporters and so you know my mother and her story a lot of it is known because of local reporters and I just wanted people in the room to see that the work matters and that good journalism at a local level matters. And, you know, it was framed in a way as this praise for journalists. But to me, I was trying to activate all of the people that run these newsrooms and the people that are in charge of all of the layoffs, the people that make triple and four times and 10 times and 20 times, the people that they're laying off make

so that as we go through this next, and I hate to say this, but I feel like media this summer, we're still looking at more contraction across a lot of outlets. And the people who are going to be in charge of making those cuts and those decisions they were in that room that night so it was more for them than the people who do the job

it's I think it's interesting you know I've heard you talk about sort of thinking about the people that are in the room and the people that aren't in the room and you talk about this a little bit uh when you're touring you know pod save america the daily show um a lot of times it's a sometimes it can be a conversation amongst people who are in on the joke and we try to bring people in and make it entertaining and make it something people will uh find kind of as an on board for people to kind of pay attention to politics but at the same time you know when you're out on the road you're talking to people that and make it something people will find kind of as an onboard for people to kind of pay attention to politics. But at the same time, you know,

when you're out on the road, you're talking to people that aren't paying attention to the news nearly as much. Maybe they're not liberal or conservative. They're just not paying attention or as engaged as maybe somebody that's watching The Daily Show a couple nights a week. How does that perspective from sort of

when you're on the road doing standup, when you're touring, come back and affect how you think about how to do these things when you're on the road doing stand-up when you're touring come back and affect how you think about how to do these things when you're say on television uh i think a lot of us are single issue voters the uninformed the more casual political constituent is a single issue voter or they're just caring about the things that affect them at a state and local level. And I think what I try to do at The Daily Show, and I got to give Trevor Noah credit for this, that it was about, yeah, shout out to Trevor. This idea of finding a national, it's a national issue, But let's tell it locally.

So if you look at. A lot of the issues that I've tried to cover. On the show. More often than not. We just want to talk to one person. That's being affected by this. And show you how it connects to the bigger conversation. As a whole.

So you know with stand up. It's difficult because. I'm still at a point where. There's about 70% of the audience. that knows what they're getting with me and 30% who's seeing me for the first time. And I almost have to figure out how, like just last week, I was in Hartford, Connecticut. It's a pretty blue collar comedy club, the Funny Bone. And so that's a club where I will put politics a little deeper in my act. I won't lead off with it.

But if I come out and I go, don't we all hate self-checkout? I don't work at this store. That's unifying. That's unifying. It brings everybody together. We all, the checkout, the self-checkout overlord who comes over and berates you for scanning wrong. Like, you start with that, and then you slip in gun control. But even when I start talking about guns, it's a me thing.

And so more often than not, I find it easier when I'm on the road and performing. If I want to address an issue, I localize it to myself. My uncle owns guns. I talk about an experience we had in a gun store. And then you tie that into a bigger conversation about mental health. But I start with the me, whereas with The Daily Show, I can start with the world. I can show a mirror to the world, whereas in comedy,

you're kind of watching me look at myself and through that learning about the world. Are you ever on the road, maybe it's a crowd that's, you know, a little bit towards just, they came out that night and you happen to be there, and you start telling a story. Oh, my first 10 years of comedy? Is that what you're talking about? In Alabama?

Yes. Continue. But you start to talk about something that's happening in the news, and you're like, oh, I am so online, nobody here knows what the fuck I'm talking about. They don't know, news and you're like oh i am so online nobody here knows what the fuck i'm talking about they don't know and they don't care because those things those things that we obsess over that we think are the biggest political story of the day the chinese spy balloon thing was a quick here and by thing you know there are a lot of us that are

aware of foreign politics and things that are going on in the world, but people that are living check to check and struggling, it's hard for them to care about what's happening in Ukraine. And it's not that they don't care. It's just that you don't know how that connects to everything else with the American economy and troops getting deployed and troops getting over there and wars way more expensive than the money we're sending for aid and support. So you can't boil that down for someone who is literally just trying to get their kids into a decent school or just trying to stay employed. So more often than not, when you're at a comedy club in a in a red state it's escapist it's it's an escapist experience for the average comedy club goer but if I'm in San Francisco or if I'm in Atlanta or like a purple

or a blue stronghold it's communal and you can still talk about other things and you can still even be a little more edgy but people come to commiserate and almost have a group hug, whereas in the red parts of the country, people don't want to hear about that. I just want to laugh. But it's my job to go. No, you need to know about this. But I have to figure out a way to couch that in something that's a little bit more palatable to start. that in something that's a little bit more palatable to start. Well, speaking of red state comedy, the Republican primary is ramping up. The field is taking shape. So actually, please welcome back to the stage John, Dan, Alex, and Tommy, who are going to join to play a game with Roy.

Okay. Get a game. I'm going to... Everybody got a mic? John, you go there. Great. This all worked out? Did everybody go?

Everybody worked out? That all happened? Seamlessly? Yeah. I didn't even need to talk about it. You did it. Roy, thank you for being here, by the way. I'm happy to be here.

This is a thrill. I'm a fan of the show. So it's time for a game we call the Mess America Passion. There she is. Rhonda Sanctimonious. That's it. You think it was longer. It's not.

That's the stink. Players, I'm going to divide you up into teams, and you'll go toe-to-toe to see who can tell these desperate loser goofballs apart. Alex and Roy, you'll be a team. The other team will be my sweet, sweet boys. All right, let me start with Roy and Alex. Your first question, which candidate made their spouse change their name

saying they just didn't look like their original name? Ron DeSantis. Feels like a Ron. It's a Ron. DeSantis, DeSantis. That's incorrect. Do you guys want to steal it? Could you repeat the question?

A candidate made their spouse change their name because they just didn't look like their spouse changed their name they just didn't look like their original name I have no idea what are our options here I'm going to need an answer do we get to workshop it

or do we just got to guess let's just guess one what do you think? Pence? No. No. Kiernan. All right, Chrissy. What's a weird thing?

Nikki Haley, maybe? Sure. Nikki Haley. Correct. Ah! According to a profile in Vogue, Haley persuaded Michael, nay William, to start going by his middle name after they started dating because he looked more like a Michael. Wow. The profile also says that he's more easygoing. Also, also just a little news here.

Dan showed me a tweet backstage. Nikki Haley called Trump reckless with national security. Wow. It's heating up. Come on. Nikki Haley. That's my girl. RIP Nikki Haley. That's my girl. RIP Nikki Haley. Question number two. Let's start with John, Dan, Tommy. Fill in the blank. When introducing this candidate in Iowa, House Speaker Todd Houston said, I read that blank can be like mayonnaise

on toast. Mike Pence. You got it. He also added, but there's a lot of Iowa bacon and maybe a little Tabasco sauce on that toast. Who in here puts mayonnaise on toast? I've heard of mayo for grilled cheese to serve for butter. I've heard of that, but I've never just straight up.

Yeah, that's a trick. But just mayo just cold out the fridge? Oh, no, never. Never cold on toast on a grilled cheese, yes. Yeah, okay, we warm it up. The point is, like Mike Pence, no one likes it. Yeah, right, yeah, that's true. Alex and Roy, speaking of someone no one likes,

this candidate reportedly wore earbuds on the house floor so he wouldn't have to talk to people. Oh. Earbuds on the house floor. Former member of the house. Former member of the house. Former member of the house. So they wouldn't have to talk to people. Because they just didn't like talking to people.

Well, but isn't that Ron DeSantis who doesn't like... Every answer is going to be Ron DeSantis. That sounds like some Chris Christie shit, but he gave him an in-house. Ron DeSantis was a member of the house. Ron DeSantis was a member of the house. Ron DeSantis. We're going to go with Ron DeSantis.

Every answer will be Ron DeSantis for known. Which candidate hosted an online talk show in his bathrobe called Robe Rage? Yeah, that's right, Tommy. Dan, John. Robe Rage. Robe Rage. Robe Rage. Yeah, that's right, Tommy. Dan, John. Robe Rage. Robe Rage. Robe Rage. Larry Elder?

Maybe? What's your guy's name from North Dakota? Are there some fringe ones that I'm not thinking about? Doug Burgum. Doug Burgum. Doesn't sound like

Doug Burgum to me. No. But nothing sounds like Doug Burgum to me. I mean, it's got a Larry Elder I guess right Vivek Ramaswamy I don't know

someone who's like been had a show throwing out there Chris Christie wouldn't have done that would he I hope not let's go with Larry Elder correct

yes Larry Elder all right oh yeah Larry Elder did have yeah Roebridge I can see it

this is only Republican yeah these are the Republican I was going to guess Oh, yeah, Larry Elder did have, yeah. Roe Brage. I can see it. This is only Republican. Yeah, these are the Republicans. I was going to guess Marianne Williamson for the steal. That's a good one. She would do that. I think it's cool that Marianne Williamson is like a mindfulness person, but then the story breaks that she got so angry at her staff, she beat a car window.

Mindfully. Yeah, mindfully. But she was very present. Roy and Alex, who praised Trump during their book tour saying, in every instance I dealt with him, he was truthful, he listened, and he was great to work with? Ron. Never mind.

Nikki Haley? Yeah, it's gotta be Nikki Haley. Who worked with him? Pence. Nikki Haley. When did they say this quote? This is before or after January 6th? That's a really great question. That's a great question. Not on the card.

Okay. Because you know it ain't Pence on January 7th. Yeah. Well, after they erect the gallows. Yeah. I feel like Nikki Haley. Let's say Nikki Haley. We'll say Nikki Haley.

You got it. Okay. Wow. I like Nikki Haley. Let's say Nikki Haley. We'll say Nikki Haley. You got it. Okay.

Wow. In 2012, this candidate was asked if he was still keeping a pledge he made publicly ever since he was in public life. He replied, not as well as I did then. Who is the candidate and what is the pledge? The candidate is Tim Scott. Yeah. And the pledge is to not engage in sexual relations before he's married. That's correct. Wow.

There it is. He was 30 when he made the pledge publicly. He was 46 when he was asked that question by National Journal. It's your guy. It's our guy. I like that that was a question on the campaign trail. Yeah. Did you get some answers?

Yeah, Tim's got it. Did you say national journal or national inquire? That's a sort of like, I'm here today to talk about how, you fucking. We're not going to listen to a word you say. None of us can get past, we're children. We need to know, Roy. Is Tim Scott fucking? All right.

Roy and Alex. In 2003, a representative gave a House floor speech celebrating Garfield the comic, saying, I rise today in the midst of serious debates

and serious discussions to pay tribute to a very large orange American tradition. Oh, my God. Did he ask for lasagna and to get Mondays off, too? Yeah.

Garfield reference. I guess not a lot of fans In the audience Can you repeat it? Garfield in 2003 on the floor On the floor of the house He may like certain cartoon characters But he actually strongly dislikes others And that was a big part of his

Persona at the time He has a specific distaste for Mulan oh oh wait who just tried to ban Mulan was it Ron I mean 2003 you want to say it I don't want to say it was Ron was Ron no Ron

wasn't was he was he in the house? Does he like Garfield? They don't know. Don't listen to them. They don't know. I think you should just say it. Asa Hutchinson.

Oh. It was Mike Pence. Oh, right. Of course. You didn't give us the steal? Oh, you want the steal? You can just edit it. You guys want the steal?

You knew it. Hutchinson was in Arkansas. All right. John, Dan tommy who is such an unbelievable kiss ass that they mentioned trump positively 21 times in a single debate while running for office this feels very desantis i was gonna run to santos oh yeah true to it run to santos you got it nice nice Alex and Roy whose staff said in private that this candidate made more fun of Donald Trump

than anyone I know and thought Trump was fucking nuts I mean that sounds like Chris Christie doesn't it yeah that feels like a Chris Christie

we're so confident no it's not I'm looking that's not he's saying no that's wrong I'll give you a hint it follows from the

previous question. Like Mike Pence? Mike Pence? It's Ron DeSantis. Come on. All right. Anyone can steal this now. This is the lightning round.

Okay. Which candidate said this in an op-ed? Time for a quick reality check. Despite the hysteria from the political class and the media, smoking doesn't kill. Mike Pence. You got it. And final question.

Which candidate recently told Mark Leibovich, I have regrets about every part of my life Chris Christie You got it There you go Listen We've run the numbers Not even close

Roy and Alex have won the game What? Abt just a steal Took it Really? Your questions were worth more points Because you're Oh that's so nice

It's an electoral college thing Okay I'll take that Roy so nice. It's an electoral college thing. Okay. I'll take that. Roy Wood Jr., everybody. Thank you so much for being here. That's our show for tonight. Thanks to Roy Wood Jr., Alex Wagner,

with Sister James, and Hillary Clinton, and thank you guys for coming. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft,

and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman, Ben Hefcoat, and David Toles. Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us at youtube.com slash at Pod Save America. you