Pod Save America - The Gospel According to Trump

Episode Date: April 17, 2026

JD Vance and Mike Johnson defend Donald Trump's fight against the pope, while Trump says "he's all about the Gospel" and Defense Secretary Hegseth leads soldiers in prayer using a fake Bible quote from "Pulp Fiction." More troops are on their way to the Middle East as the United States and Iran look for a short-term agreement before the ceasefire expires Tuesday. Republicans worry that Trump's "nonsense" is distracting from their midterm affordability message, and a New York Post reporter publishes an excerpt from Health Secretary Kennedy's diary in which he recalls cutting off the penis of a roadkill raccoon. Then, Minnesota Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan stops by the studio to talk to Tommy about her campaign for Senate, how ICE's operations in her state have reshaped the race, and what she wants to see from Democratic leadership in the Senate.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

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It's Simplysafe.com slash crooked. There's no safe like SimplySafe. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Fabro. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, the Holy War rolls on. Trump is still fighting with the Pope. J.D. Vance is lecturing the Holy Father about theology.

And Pete Hegsef is leading the troops in prayer using a fake Bible quote from Pulp Fiction. We'll get into all of that as well as the latest, with Trump's other war in Iran, which, according to Trump is either over or just getting started, sometimes in the same sentence. We'll talk about Republicans in Congress hitting the panic button on the, quote, nonsense coming out of Trump's mouth, an RFK Jr's trip to Capitol Hill, where TMZ asked him about a newly surfaced diary entry in which he writes about cutting the penis off of a dead raccoon to, quote, study it later. That's what she said?

I guess. I don't know. Then Minnesota Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, one of the Democrats in the primary for the open Senate seat there, talks with Tommy about the race and dealing with the ICE occupation of her state. Quick reminder before we start, please consider becoming a crooked media subscriber if you haven't already so that you don't miss out on any of the fresh, fresh content we're putting out just for Friends of the Pod. subscribers get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends. Other subscriber-only shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. How's the new episode? What did you guys talk about this week?

We talked about the impact of Eric Swalwa's campaign imploding on the California governance race and whether Democrats are still at risk of getting locked out of the top two spots. And I guess the answer is maybe. The answer is there ain't. Everyone's got to subscribe and tune it to Polar Coaster. Yeah, yeah. I mean, let's not. Let's not give the milk away for free here.

I will say, and, you know, I'm willing to do this. I was very, I was very forward leaning on Tuesday's pod being like, no, I had read the message box. And I think that the math is, I think now that Swallowell dropped out and Trump endorsed Steve Hilton were okay now. And Tommy's like, I don't know. I talked to some people and they're still a little worried. And I was like, hmm. And now Tommy was right. No, I think, look, this is not the topic of this pod, but I think that we, there's still a risk, of course.

I think the risk is dramatically less than it was. You do think it's like. Prior to both the Trump endorsement of Steve Hilton and Eric Swalb while dropping up. And I will not ask you why because everyone's got to go subscribe to Friends of the Pod so you can go listen to Polarcoaster

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and subscribe. All right, Dan, let's get to the news. The MAGA attack on the Catholic Church has somehow intensified since President Trump called the Holy Father weak on crime and warned the first American pontiff that he better, quote, get his act together. Our deeply Christian Speaker of the House and Catholic Vice President, faced with a choice between God and Trump, did exactly what you imagined they'd do. I think that it's important in the same way that it's important for the Vice President United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy, I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology. I think he said several days back that something about those who engage

in war, you know, that Jesus doesn't hear their prayers or something. You know, it is a very well-settled matter of Christian theology. There's something called the just war doctrine. There's a time to every purpose under his. There's just Catholic explaining to the Pope. I mean, there's just so much to say about this. So much to say. The absolute arrogance of J.D. Vance to lecture the Pope on when it is appropriate to talk about theology and to have the audacity to compare the importance of his words as the mostly powerless Vice President of United States, whose job is to attend funerals to the Pope is nuts. It's just it's absolutely, there are so many ways to just like, there are so many ways

for J.D. Vance to address this. And he chose the absolute worst one. He just became a Catholic like five minutes ago. John, he, does he have a book coming out? He does have a book coming out. What is that book about, John? This is probably going to do wonders for his book sales, I guess. That book is about his conversion to Catholicism, which did happen seven years ago. The Pope, who is really just the direct descendant really from Jesus Christ himself and Peter, the first Pope of the church in Catholic doctrine.

You know, what he says, that's sort of been church doctrine for a couple thousand years. years, a couple thousand, since the calendar changed over from BC to AD, that's how long the Pope's going. And J.D. Vance has about seven years in a fucking book under his belt. So that's what he went on to say, because the full quote was crazy, we didn't have time for it all in the clip, but he said, and I think that one of these issues here is that there has been, if you're going to opine on matters of theology, you've got to be careful. You've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth. one of the things that I try to do, and it's certainly something I would expect from the clergy,

whether they're Catholic or Protestant. This is the tell, by the way, that he is a new Catholic, because you don't just refer to the Pope as part of the clergy. He's the he's the pontiff. He's the Holy Father. He is the Bishop of Rome. It's like there is the theological mis, incorrectness in what he's saying. And then there's just the political stupidity of it all. Yes. It's like you look like an asshole. And then there's, if you were telling the Pope when they can talk about theology. You just sound insane. I just before we move on from Vance, because I know there's a lot more to talk about,

the U.S. Catholic bishops did release a statement. Yes. In response to Vance. And first of all, they talk about just war theory. This is also a response to Mike Johnson, I guess, who's decided to riff on just war theory. And they set a constant tenet of the thousand-year-old just war theory. theory is that a nation can only legitimately take up the sword in self-defense once all peace efforts have failed. It must be a defense against another who actively wages war, which is what

the Holy Father actually said, quote, he does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. And then, this was the best line, when Pope Leo speaks as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, he is not merely offering opinions on theology. He is preaching the gospel and exercising his ministry is the vigor of Christ. And like, look, it's been a long time since I have delved into my Jesuit education. But Mike Johnson doesn't even understand just war theory because there's two parts of it. There is the just war and why you go to war, which is what the bishop's talking about there. And then there is justice in how you conduct the war.

And that's exactly what the Pope is talking about here because the President of the United States threatened, regardless of what the original reason for to war was, even if there was a just reason for going to war, it is not a just war if one of the possible mechanisms for winning that war is the genocide of a country of 92 million people. Yeah. That you were going to wipe an entire country, all the civilians, all the women, the children, the families, everyone else, off the face of the planet in service of trying to win that war. That is not a just war. And that is why the Pope spoke out.

And someone shouted at J.D. Vance at that event. Jesus doesn't support genocide. And J.D. Vance did allow because he is a caring, thoughtful man. He said, oh, no, yes, I agree. Jesus is not for genocide. So thank you. Thank you, teacher. Not to be outdone by his colleagues, Holy Warrior Pete Higseth, who often sounds like he turned a little too much water into wine before his public appearances. He compared the media's coverage of the Iran war Thursday morning to a Jewish religious sect that persecuted Jesus. Let's listen. Jesus entered a synagogue and healed a man with a withered hand.

The Pharisees came to watch, but their hearts were hardened. Even though they witnessed a literal miracle, it didn't matter, they were only there to explain away the goodness in pursuit of their agenda. Our press are just like these Pharisees. Your politically motivated animus for President Trump nearly completely blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors. It doesn't even make sense as an analogy, as blasphemous as it is. Like, so our military is Jesus in this scenario?

And the Iran war is. No, no, Trump is Jesus. Trump is Jesus, right. Right. And Trump bombing Iran is healing the sick. Yes, yes. Yes. And because they hate Jesus so much, they can't recognize, I hate Trump.

They cannot recognize the brilliance of our troops. Yes. Yeah. I don't know where the troops fit into this. I guess they're the healing. Who knows? Who knows? I wouldn't think too hard on it.

None of the press coverage is against the troops. No, of course it's not. Press coverage is just covering a war. Covering a war that is stupid. No one is even suggesting that the military has not done a very good job of executing the goals that were given to them. They just think the war is stupid

and the goals were stupid. Yeah. Yeah, what would be like Jesus healing person in the temple? Would it be when we blew up a school in Southern Iran and killed a couple hundred children? Is that analogous to, to the story of the Pharisees in Jesus. Yeah, it's just, like, what is, what is he doing?

And there's just this other element of this, which is, this is like, now we're getting into Ben Tommy nerddom. But the audience for this, in Pete Hacks' mind, is Donald Trump and no one else. Right. But the audience, when the Secretary of Defense speaks during a war, is not just the American public, it's the world. And when you're at war with a Muslim nation to come. constantly be using religious, Christian religious imagery to do it, you are, that is so

counterproductive because it feeds the suggestion that that can be weaponized against the United States that this is a religious war. It's a war on Islam, which is a, which is a tool that was used during, you know, post-9-11, the Iraq war by, you know, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, others, to recruit people against the United States. It's so stupid. Also, way. We blew by just using religious imagery a long time ago. He said today, he specifically said, we are fighting this war in the name of Jesus Christ. Yes. And everything you said is true. Also, if you don't expect to get pushback from the Pope and the Catholic Church, when you say that you are fighting a war in the name of Jesus Christ, this isn't like God bless our troops, God keep

our troops safe. It's nothing like that. It is like, we are fighting a war in the name of Jesus Christ, which of course the Pope was like, wait a minute, no, that's a no-no. That's just a no-no, always. I have a say on that. Yeah, remember the Crusades? That was bad. We don't want to go back to that. So anyway, Pope Leo, who was in Cameroon on Thursday, delivered some remarks that may or may not

have been a response to all this. You can decide for yourself. Jesus told us, blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military economic or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth. Okay, then. Good for Pope Leo. Trump was asked Thursday morning about the church's statement that Pope Leo isn't expressing

his opinion. He's preaching the gospel. To which the president responded, quote, I'm all about the gospel. That's what everyone says about him, Mr. Gospel. He also said, quote, I have nothing against the Pope. His brother is Maga all the way. And then when he was asked whether he'd meet with the Pope to patch things up, he said, quote, I don't think it's necessary. Day five of Maga versus the Holy See.

What do you think, Dan? This is it going to be going well for MAGA in this case, maybe my take. I mean, let's not forget that what actually started this was the Department of Defense meeting with the Vatican to threaten them with military response for opposing the war on Iran. Yeah, subtly. So this is not just like a bunch of tweets. this was a direct threat, which is possibly the most insane thing that's happened in all of the Trump years. Yeah. Probably the most insane thing that's ever happened in the history of the relationship between the Catholic Church and the U.S. government.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what I don't know my historical knowledge would suggest that. But yeah, probably. I mean, it's pretty. It's wild. And just, but also just the political idiocy of saying, you know what, I got high gas prices. I got this war going on.

My approval ratings under 40 now. You know what would be a really good move for me? Let's pick a fight with the American Pope from Chicago. It's just like what? It's so stupid. And like Pope Leo not backing down, he continued to say in that speech in Cameroon, the world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. Yet it is held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters.

The masters of war pretend not to know that it only only, only takes a moment to destroy, yet often a lifetime is not enough to rebuild. It's pretty, pretty direct. And it's also, look, Trump, Trump today in that, when he was being asked questions, you could tell that someone tried to walk him back a little because he's like, I'm not fighting with the Pope. The Pope said Iran can have a nuclear weapon. That's the only, I just disagreed with him.

First of all, the Pope didn't say that at all. But you could tell he was like maybe wanting to back down. But throughout the week, I mean, he called up an Italian newspaper to yell about Georgia Maloney, the Italian prime minister, because she defended the Pope who resides in the Vatican, which is in Italy. And so he called her unacceptable and said it implied she was cowardly. He said, I thought she was brave, but I was wrong. So he pissed off his now former right-wing ally, the prime minister of Italy. On Wednesday, the Miami Herald reported that the Trump administration abruptly canceled an $11 million contract with Catholic

charities in Miami to shelter and care for migrant children who come to the U.S. with no parents. We must punish the migrant children because Trump said that Pope Leo was weak on crime. And Pope Leo said, no, I'm not. I'm the Pope. I mean, I know you guys talk about this on Tuesday, but I have been laughing nonstop about Pope Leo, weak on crime. He's just like, what does he think? There's some silent majority who wants a law and order Pope?

Like, what are we doing? Pope Leo's weak on crime, weak on nuclear. he's so fucking stupid he's he's he's for they them uh yeah jesus jesus and the holy spirit i'm for you then someone should make a uh a trump attack out on the pope i mean it's just it's waiting there i'd love for somebody to do that i mean we talked about a i jesus um on on tuesday's pod there was another ai image of of of trump of jesus with his arm around trump Tucker Carlson said it looked like he was caressing Trump Tucker Carl said by the way

Tommy and I talked about this on YouTube you should go check it out, subscribe to our YouTube channel but Tucker gave this monologue where he basically, not basically, he did compare Donald Trump to the Antichrist by reading passages from the Bible about what the Antichrist would look like if he came.

Sure enough, it was a little more similar than I thought it would be actually when I first, when I first listened to it. There was also an Axio story that sort of got to the bottom of how the original AI Jesus meme came to be. Did you read this story, Dan? Is this the Bill Pulte one? Mm-hmm.

Yep, yep. It's like every terrible thing that Trump does starts with Bill Pulte. Yep. Who, if you don't know, is the head of mortgages, basically? Yeah, he's supposed to be the federal housing authority, Fannie, Freddie. mortgages. And that's... FHFA. FHFA, right. That's his official title. What he's been doing, well, what he's been doing is fucking up everything, but he's been trying to prosecute Trump's perceived enemies for mortgage fraud unsuccessfully. He's been pissing off Scott Bessent,

who has gotten in fights with him and almost kicked the shit out of him. And apparently he was with Donald Trump and Mara Lago. And here's what Axios reports at some point. Pulte brought the image to Trump's attention of AI Jesus, the meme, the advisors told Axios, it's not clear whether he just displayed the rendering on his phone or actually sent it to the president. Quote, everyone thought it was a joke, one of the advisors said. And then in a smart brevity way, Axios writes, the intrigue. Adding to the strangeness of the AI-generated image Trump posted late Sunday was that it included a mysterious horned creature in the heavens that Some interpreted as a demon, though art experts cautioned against reading too much into AI Slop.

But the original image of Trump as Christ-like healer didn't include the horned creature. So the meme had been floating around the internet for quite some time. But when Trump posted it, the horned creature appeared. So let's dig into this for a second. Lending credence to Tucker's belief that perhaps Trump really is the Antichrist. So do you think that Bill Pulte just gave Trump a newer version of that meme or the White House altered it or at some point Satan himself got involved? Honestly, none of those, none of those possibilities would surprise me. Yes, in fact, the most likely one, maybe the last one.

I was going to say, the one that involves the White House doctoring an image itself and trying to figure out how to add like, That actually strikes me as the least plausible because that takes too much work and talent. So I don't think that's it. But who knows? Who knows? It's hard to say. How do you think Catholic Trump voters feel about this, Dan? Because I will say I would have thought not, they wouldn't be too happy about it.

Just so people know, Catholic vote, Obama won American Catholics 54-45 in 2008. Since then, Catholics have steadily moved right. Trump won them 5543 in 2024. And then I saw something rather alarming today when I read JVL's The Triad at the Bullwork, as I always do. And he said that he's on Sarah Longwell's focus group pod this weekend. And he's like, oh, I don't want to give too much away. But basically he said that it was a lot of Catholics who voted for Trump, like Trump voter, Trump supporting Catholics. And they took Trump side in Trump versus Pope Leo.

Let's lay the groundwork first. Sure. Which is there are in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Arizona, more than a quarter of the electorate is Catholic. In the three blue wall states, there's about five and a half million Catholics. If 300,000 of those switch their votes in 2024, Kamala Harris will be president today. So, like, the Catholic vote is very powerful in this country, and it's particularly powerful in the states that design. the presidency. And it's worth noting that a huge swath of Catholics in this country are Latino, which is partially explains the big ship because Catholics were basically tied in 2020 with Biden.

Then they moved dramatically in Trump's way in 2024. That's mostly white Catholics, but also a lot of it is Latinos moving in Trump's direction. Makes sense. But it's also worth noting that people's political identity is often preeminent on these things, which is why you had a bunch of Catholics who voted for Obama despite him being pro-choice, despite putting contraceptive care in the Affordable Care Act, changing position in 2012 to being for same-sex marriage, all of those things. So, like, you would not expect a triple voting Trump Catholic who all of a sudden change their mind because of this fight.

Yeah, that's true. Now, now, having said all of that, I think this is a problem for Trump beyond just Catholics. the dumb Trump fights that we've been living with for 10 years just hit different when gas is $4 a gallon and when people are upset about everything else. If the economy's humming and prices are low, people put up with a lot of idiocy from their president. When things are not going great, they're just like this goes in there with like the ballroom, the Iran war, all the other things he's doing other than solving my problem. So I put it in the following is, this is bad for Trump politically.

even if a tiny fraction of Catholics in the states I mentioned turn on Trump for this, that has real implications for House races in those states, Senate races in those states, like the Michigan Senate race, for instance, and in 20208, if it stays that way. I also think if you're a Trump supporter who is either against or unsure of this war, and you're also sort of horrified by his threat to eradicate a civilization overnight. And then Pope Leo speaks and you're like, yeah, that's how I feel and I'm a Catholic. And then Trump attacks Pope Leo. I think that's an added sort of push in another direction for you as a Catholic. So you're right. It's like this stuff is on the margins as everything is. One more thing before we leave our Holy War section, Pete Higseth, who is clearly well-versed in scripture, delivered a stirring prayer to soldiers at a Pentagon worship service this week, an excerpt of which the internet has helpfully spliced together with the monologue.

that may be familiar to you. Let's listen. Blessed is he who, in the name of camaraderie and duty, shepherd the loss through the valley of darkness. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger

those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. This guy's crushing it, huh? Well, it's important to point out that that's not a real verse. It's based on a real verse, but it is, when you look at the real verse versus Samuel L. Jackson's monologue in Pulp Fiction. written by Quentin Tarantino, it is quite different, yeah.

Yeah, it's Quentin Tarantino took it from a samurai movie, I believe, which is originally where this comes from. I learned this in college, because I was in college, this movie came out, I'm old, I know. But we were in, because I went to Jesuit University, we were in theology. And so it was pointed out that this was not the exact right version of this line from scripture.

You think Pete Higgs had skipped that class, that theology class, wherever college he went to? Was it before noon? Enough said. Enough said. Anyway, that's our defense secretary right there. Just sending the troops into battle with that. So good stuff.

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Go to Cookunity.com slash cricket or enter code Cricket before checkout for 50% off your first week. That's 50% off your first week by using code crooked or going to cookunity.com slash crooked. So the war that the president and the Pope are fighting about is still very much unresolved, despite Trump's repeated claims to the contrary. The U.S. is still blockading Iran's ports. Iran is still controlling the straight of Hormuz, and we learned on Thursday morning that because the U.S. and Iran are still far apart on minor issues, like the fate of Iran's nuclear program, the two sides are looking.

The dust. Who is the dust? The two sides are looking at a short-term agreement before the sea. ceasefire expires on Tuesday that would allow for more traffic to get through the Strait of Hormuz in exchange potentially for unfreezing some Iranian assets. In better news, however, Israel has agreed to a 10-day ceasefire in Lebanon, which had just went into effect right as we started recording. So hopefully that holds. Trump was asked about all of this Thursday morning and gave his usual set of confusing and somewhat contradictory answers. Let's listen. We're extending the ceasefire with Iran?

With who? With Iran. We're doing very well, I can tell you. Maybe it'll happen before that. I'm not sure it needs to be extended. Iran wants to make a deal, and we're dealing very nicely with them. They've agreed to give us back the nuclear dust. It's way underground.

The blockade has been incredible. It's held. They're not doing any business. They're unable to do any business because of the blockade. Everything is gone, including their leaders. Now they have a new set of leaders, and we find them very reasonable. There's no deal, fight or resume. No deal fighting will resume.

10,000 more American troops are headed to the region right now on top of the 50,000 already there. So, like, it is really, I found it more difficult today to figure out what the hell is going on than even most days, because you get all this reporting that, like, they gave up on the big deal, now they're trying to get a smaller deal and a ceasefire, The ceasefire expires on Tuesday. And then Trump's out there being like, we're close. We're close to a big deal. And I think I'll fly to Pakistan to Islamabad if there's a deal. And talks could resume this weekend.

And you're like, well, doesn't someone have to get on a plane to Pakistan if talks are resuming this weekend? Like, I have no idea what's going on. But do you think from a political standpoint, at least, that Trump is succeeding in pretending that we've already won this thing, just to try to get it out of the headlines or at least stop it from being a major topic in the midterms, which obviously it still will be if gas prices are high. But what do you think? Yeah. So let's talk about what Trump's actually trying to do here, other than just vomit upwards that make no sense. Like to the extent there is a strategy.

It is he wants this war to be over. He wants the straight of Hormuz open. And he wants to do that without admitting defeat. He wants to do that with admitting defeat. Like he wants a win of some kind. And getting the dust, it would be a win, you know, getting some sort of agreement. Now, They clearly are, and he wants to keep sounding optimistic because that's the best way to keep the markets on board. The stock market, not the oil market. The oil market doesn't really give a shit what Trump says. It really matters what's going to happen over the medium term and the long term here. But he's just trying to manage the stock market.

The problem is, is that all of that runs into reality at some point. And at some point, you recognize that we have very little leverage in these discussions. They control the straight. we are unwilling or unable to do the things it would take to open the straight. Iran could also start messing with other waterways, like all of a sudden, the Houthis could be involved in the Red Sea, and then we have huge problems. And so all, but none of that matters in the end. I think if you want to get to the political part of this, which is I think the most damage,

long-term damage has already been done to Trump, which is he is a guy who said he wasn't going to start wars and now he started war. So that's part one of the damage. The second part is there's always a moment in these presidents where voters have real questions, but they swallowed those questions when they voted for them. And one is that Trump's kind of a nut. Like, and he's erratic. He's rash.

He doesn't really pay attention to what's going on. And we skated through without that being a huge problem in his first term until the pandemic hit. And then here, like this is what everyone warned about with Trump. It's a little bit like this is what Katrina, the Red War is to Trump, what Katrina was to Bush politically, which was we knew the guy was kind of a knucklehead, right? And here's what, here it is. We see the cost of it. You're seeing the cost of it here. The COVID was like that too. Yeah, COVID. COVID was, except people did not blame Trump for COVID. That was like we see that, right? And people who really paid attention see the mistakes. They made with the public never held Trump accountable for COVID, which is why he almost won re-election because of it. Yeah. I think it definitely. I think the public definitely didn't hold him responsible for the economic impacts of COVID. I think that the way he handled that first year up until the November of 2020, I think it probably hurt him. I mean, it's why he lost. That's why he lost.

But it's on the, like, he's still lost by whatever it was, 50,000 votes. Right. Yeah, not enough. You know, whether gas prices come down or not, prices are going to be higher than they were before, any hope of some sort of economic miracle before the midterms that would put some wind in the sales republics. But against that is gone now. That just simply cannot happen. Because if it, if gas prices, as far as anyone can tell, are not going to be lower than they were when he started this war, even if they're not at $4 a gallon come November. Yeah. I was trying to think I'm like, because, you know, if the Iranians

decide that even though they control the Strait of Hormuz, that their economy has been badly damaged, their infrastructure has been damaged, they've, you know, would they want to make a deal? The only kind of deal I could see them making ends up looking a lot like the Obama's Iran deal, the JCPOA, right? Like they're already talking about, you know, that the U.S. is saying, okay, maybe we'll do 20 years of no nuclear activity. And then Iran says five. And then if they end up at 10, 10 was exactly what the Obama's Iran deal is. And you could imagine some kind of a deal that Trump just tries to present as like the greatest. deal on earth. And then when you look into the details, it is like strikingly similar to the 2015 JCPOA, in which case, you know, I think that like, I guess that he'll take that as a win

and act like it's the greatest deal and then he should get the Nobel Peace Prize. But then it sort of begs the question, well, Obama got that through diplomacy and you got that through upending the global economy and killing a bunch of people and depleting a lot of our munitions and sending our military into battle and losing 13 American lives, 15 American lives. I do not think the public will give him one ounce of credit. Yeah, no. I don't think so. I think he'll take the credit, but that they will.

I don't think the public will either. But it'll be like, you know, the, I think the Republicans who are sort of wavering, they'll all get back on side and then we'll be on to the off to the next thing. You think the voters or the Republican elites? I think Republican elites and then I think Republican voters who were mostly on board anyway, But I think that the ones he lost, we'll see. We'll see. Yeah.

I mean, like, he really is only lost four points in overall approval ratings since this is where started. So even getting, even if we were to get that every single one of those people back, he gets them back up to 42. And I will say this is, this would be the best case scenario for him, right? And by the way, it's the best case scenario for everyone, right? Like, if there's a deal, that's, that's wonderful in the straight opens. And we've somehow put new restrictions on their nuclear program.

Like, great. It's, I mean, awful that this happened. But of all the outcomes ahead of us. us because if there is no deal, he keeps saying, other than the fighting will resume. Heg Seth talked about at the briefing today. Yeah, well, we still, we're still threatening the power plants and the bridges. They can go right back to where we were when it was bridge and power plant day and he was threatening war crimes. So that would be fucking awful. But who knows? Just like to what end? Like that hasn't, because you can destroy all those things. Like, I mean, Tommy, I'm talking about this

all the time. But what Iran cares about is the people in charge care about staying in power. And they're in power. Right. And they're not going to get vote. They are not. concerned about the impact of destroyed power plants on the generic ballot. No. Like that is not that's not there. They just they can wait this out forever. Yeah. Speaking of the midterms, the Trump affordability tour continues. Took a little break. It's back on now. To celebrate tax week, it was tax day this week. Trump went to Las Vegas on Thursday for a tried and true roundtable plus remarks promoting his no tax on tips policy and broader tax relief. He claims were delivered by the big beautiful bill. The event happened after we

recorded this, but he did take a bunch of questions about affordability on the South Lawn as he left for the trip. Let's take a listen. How much longer will Americans continue to see these high gas prices? Well, they're not very high. If you look at what they were supposed to be in order to get rid of a nuclear weapon with the danger that entail. So the gas prices have come down very much over the last three four days. I know, you know, and that's what ABC says. But the fact is that if you look at the stock markets up, everything's doing really well. Well, you just can't do it. He can't.

Oh, yeah, ABC says that gas prices are high. Okay, sure. ABC says it. Or you could just go to your fucking gas station and look up. Yeah, the one thing you're not pulling the wool over people's eyes is gas prices. The one thing that is advertised on every highway exit in America. And look, everyone knows what gas prices are supposed to be when you try to get rid of nuclear weapons. When you try to fight the nuclear, everyone is he saying?

Is he saying a national high? gas prices prices would be if we had a... I think he was... Everything is like I did better than I was supposed to do.

That's like, that's his... Either I did something amazing or if he knows he's in trouble, well, what I did is better than what it was supposed to be. Like, it doesn't make any sense,

but he's trying to make the argument that like, actually, the stock market was supposed to be worse and gas prices were supposed to be higher and more people were supposed to be dead and look, look what I did. It's not so bad. I saved us.

The country would be destroyed without me. It's like he's walking up to the line of saying, yes, gas prices are high. That sucks. But it is a sacrifice we all have to make to prevent Iran from posing an existential threat to the United States. Yeah, but he can't. Like that's the honest answer, but he's incapable. I mean, no one would. That's not a, that's not a deal anyone would sign up for. No. But that, but that he knows. Yeah. But he like can't say it. So he has to say there is this very important thing we're doing, but also gas prices are very low. And if someone tells you they're not, it's because they're fake news. So obviously Trump has stepped all over his affordability coverage by continuing his fight with God's emissary here on Earth.

But question for you, is it clear that a day of coverage about the big beautiful bill, the tax law, no tax on tips, affordability, ragging about low gas prices, would have been better for him? This is the line you hear all the time from the Republicans, right? Whether it's Susie Wiles and James Blair in the White House or the Republicans on Capitol Hill, all the operatives are working. on the campaign super PACs is we need Trump to get back to the economic message. I'm just not convinced that that would work for a couple of reasons. One, Trump's incapable. He is psychologically incapable of delivering what would be the most effective economic message. He just can't do it.

He cannot say what he's doing to lower prices because he can admit the prices are high. Like that is the fundamental problem there. The second problem is, is that this is not Trump of 2016, Trump of 2020, or even Trump of 24. This is a man who is 20 points underwater on the economy and 30 points underwater on inflation. He is not a trusted messenger. The efficacy of any message is intrinsically tied to the credibility of the messenger. And so Trump talking about the economy when people thought he was a, he was good on the economy was helpful. Trump talking about the economy right now is nothing but noise in both voters because they do not trust him. Yeah. And this whole thing about the tax bill and no tax on tips.

Republicans will say, oh, well, this part's popular and that part's popular. But the fact of the matter is, the increase in gas prices, persistent inflation has completely wiped away any gains, anyone received from tax cuts, middle class tax cuts, to the extent there were middle class tax cuts in the big beautiful bill, like no tax on tips. And I think there was a story in the New York Times about someone who's like, yeah, you know, I usually get a $350 refund and I got like $1,000 or so this year. But also way fewer people are coming to my business to buy things because it's just, it's tougher out there. And so I don't think he gets any credit for this.

And you're right. Instead of talking about it as, hey, we made a down payment. We helped you out a little bit, but we need more Republicans in Congress to pass bigger tax relief or to do this. You know, like, he's incapable of doing that. All he can do is be like, and I solved everything. And everyone's rich now. And gas prices aren't bad.

And the fake news media is telling you your life's bad. but everything's great. Like, that's the only, that's the only speed he has. I am just skeptical that when push comes to shove, the major Republican campaigns or the Republican super PACs are going to spend a lot of money touting the big, beautiful bill on TV and digital. They're going to spend all of their money trying to attack the Democrats on immigration, crime, cultural issues, et cetera, to try to disqualify them because that is the only

chance they have is that there are enough swing voters, soft Republicans, independents who are skeptical of Democrats, that it might help, you know, tamp down their losses. But this idea that we are one affordability tour away from a Republican resurgence is absurd. Trump does seem like he's coming to grips with all of this, with how poorly the midterms are going. Here he is working through it on Wednesday with Maria Bartaromo on Fox business. Do you expect the Republicans to lose seats in the House? And what does that mean for your agenda?

When somebody gets elected president, that party always lose. is the midterms. I don't know why. I don't know why. Nobody could explain it. I ask people that are deep into the psychological world. I said, why is it that a voter votes for the opposite party? Even when you have a good president, I think I had the greatest year. Dear, hello, people deep in the psychological world. Why is it, right? Who, who, who, Dr. Phil. It's Dr. Phil. It's definitely Dr. Phil. Someone said Dr. Oz to me. I think different got a doctor, but yes. Yeah, you're deep in the psychological world. Why is it that someone votes against a great president like me?

There are so many public science, polysciprof professors right now who are like jumping through their phones to try to explain thermostatical public opinion to Trump. Trump discovers thermostatic public opinion. There it is. There it is. Unsurprisingly, Trump's fellow Republicans are starting to get nervous that Trump isn't exactly locked in message-wise.

Here's Tuesday's Politico headline. Republicans worry White House nonsense is hurting midterm prospects. It also includes a quote from Brian Lanzah, who was a senior advisor to Trump's 2024 campaign. He said, the road to victory runs through a consistent economic message. Unfortunately, President Trump ignores the roadmap. No shit. Any takeaways from the Politico piece? It is interesting that, because you don't see this that often, which is, this is kind of a tradition in midterms where the folks on the hill start to blame the White House this far out. And so all of a sudden, you have got a lot of very brave Republican operatives unwilling to put their names on things to

start saying this is the White House's fault. But they are correct that, look, if Trump was executing his political and messed strategy perfectly, the Republicans would still be kind of fucked here. Like, it is the Trump's second midterm. Prices are high. There's a war in the Middle East, but Trump is doing nothing to help them. And they're just like, like, he's doing nothing strategically to help them. He's not doing a lot tactically to help it. Let's not forget. we are now, you know, a month away from the Texas runoff and Trump has not endorsed the chosen candidate of the NRSC yet. Wild.

Like there are things he could be doing to help and he is not helping. And they are unfocused on everything. And that hurts them on the margins. Right. Right. Like the problem, I mean, the real thing, like the nonsense hurts on the margins. Tariffs and a war in Iran, that really hurts. And that's the stuff that really matters here.

There's a lot of focus on like Trump's going off the cuff again and not on the roadmap. And it's like, well, the war he started and the tariffs and the gas. Yeah. Like that's the, it's not a communication problem. Yeah. It's just he's not even trying to make things better. And he makes them worse when he opens his mouth. It doesn't seem to care that much about what's going to happen.

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So with everything going on this week, we haven't had the chance to talk about the big news in Hungary where autocrat, Victor Orban, went down in a landslide after 16 years in power. despite the last-minute rally from Key Surrogate and Catholic Splainer J.D. Vance. Orban was defeated by Peter Maudiard, a conservative pro-EU former ally who turned against Orbán and his party in 2024. Maudiard campaigned aggressively on battling corruption and dismantling the media and political machine Orbán had built. He drove this home in a viral appearance on pro-Orbond state television this week, which he

said had blacklisted him until now, where he told the pro-Orban presenter that he'll be working to revive independent media and that their work on the network would have made Goebbels and Kim Jong-un, quote, lick their lips. This is wild. I've been looking at his Twitter feed, and he's just like, it's quite a victory lap here. He's, he posted to the Fidesz leaders, that's the the Orban's party, I say this, no matter how much you pretend that nothing has happened, we know what you have done to our homeland and to the Hungarian people. Do not doubt for a moment, you reap what you sow. He also said that one of the first, he sort of tweeted the picture of him at the appearance on the state television and he said, one of the first measures of his government

will be the immediate suspension of the public media's news services until all conditions for impartial and objective journalism are fully restored and that he'll ensure press freedom, abolish censorship and eliminate prohibited state subsidies. Then he also, he went to meet with the president of Hungary. The president is more of a ceremonial role than the prime minister there, but this was like an Orban guy. And so he posts a picture of him meeting with the president. And then he said, I have arrived at the palace to meet the president. He's unworthy of representing the unity of the Hungarian nation. He's unfit to serve as the guardian of legality. He is not fit to serve as a moral authority or role model following the formation of the new government,

he must leave office immediately. And it's just like a picture of the two of the meeting. It's great. I love it. It made me think about, fantasize about the, you know, what would happen if a Democrat comes to power in 2028. But I do wonder if you think there's any lessons for the pro-democracy coalition in this country on sort of, you know, both how to take down a corrupt dictator and also what to do if we went. So let's talk about the what to do if we win. Because the victory against Orban was years and years in the making and a resistance that was operating under much worse conditions that we are in the United States. Like we do not have state controlled media here yet.

And one way you can avoid that is by subscribing to by subscribe to by subscribe. to our friends of the pod at cricket.com slash friends. Organic mention. Exactly. Somewhere, Elijah will be cheering. I think the lesson for us is in response, which is you simply cannot turn the other cheek to fascism. We learn this lesson. This is essentially what Biden wanted to do.

It's what Merrick Garland wanted to do until he was bullied into actually trying to uphold the law by the January 6th hearings. Congress. And there's going to be a massive project to dig out root and branch all of the corruption and the corrupt that Trump has put in our government and to hold them accountable. And this is going to be hard because Trump is probably going to pardon all of them. Yep. And so we're going to have to. We didn't talk about the Wall Street Journal story from last week, I think, where Trump has reported as a saying in meetings that he's going to pardon everyone who's come within 200 feet of the Oval Office that works in the federal government.

And that, and it's just putting a pin on that is worth noting that the Supreme Court gave Trump immunity to commit crimes and that Trump now has now given his staff immunity to help him commit those crimes. Yep. But we have to, if you can't prosecute those people because of pardons, you have to call them out publicly. There has to be accountability hearings. They have to be named in shame.

They have to be removed from their positions. We have to be tough with the people, with the law firms, the corporations, everyone else, the media companies who essentially engage in legalized bribery to try to win favor with Trump, the ones who are spending money on his ballroom, who are changing the programming at networks in order to appease them. You have, like, and I think those people should know now, and I hope the Democrats talk about this, know now that those consequences are coming, right? There is at least a 50% chance that a Democrat is going to be president in 2029.

And what you do now is something that person is not going to forget. My head hurts thinking about the battle to come within the Democratic Party about this, because I would bet you that a lot of the pollsters and the strategists will say, people that we know, will say voters just elected ex-democrat to focus on affordability. And that's why they won. And they have to make sure they bring costs down. and they have to be laser-like focus on people's lives and their struggles and their, and, and we can't be spending all this time on hearings looking back because then voters are going to say, I elected you to do something to improve my life. And all you're doing now is attacking Trump and Trump officials and looking backwards. And we have to look forward as a party. And that's that. So the strategists will say that. And then everyone else will yell at them and it'll be a whole thing. And it might not be even after we win. It'll probably be a fight during the 2028 primary, I bet. I don't think it'll be a fight during the primary. I think they're going to be one-uping each other. Yeah.

Like by the third debate, someone's going to be promising like, you know, taring. We're promising like stoning in the public square live streaming of these officials. You know, and look, we know this because there was a lot of pressure on Obama to prosecute the Bush people for torture. And that was a choice that Obama Department of Justice did not make. And the arguments were exactly that was that people wanted to turn the page. The issue here is that this is not a short-term political decision. This is a long-term decision related to the preservation of democracy, or that if you allow people to understand that

raiding our government and breaking laws for the consolidation of power is something that has no consequences, and that will happen time again. And we will just be ping-ponging back and forth between democracy and being on the cusp of fascism every couple of electrical cycles. And that cannot happen. I've thought about this. Here's what I would advise, which is taking a, taking a page out of the Trump playbook and Steve Bannon sort of flood the zone strategy. I think you do it all. You do as much as possible in like the first couple weeks while you're still in the honeymoon phase. And you got like, I saw that picture of him with the president. It's like you go to the FBI, Cash Patel, you're fucking out, right? Because the FBI director is supposed to have a 10 year, 10 year term. No way, obviously, Cash Patel is going to stay there. and Brendan Carr, right, FCC chairman,

like all these people that are supposedly in the old world had terms that lasted through different presidencies. You got to clear them all out. Basically every Trump appointee, every person in Trump hired, I think you've got to clear out of the federal government within like the first week. And because the whole prosecution thing is like, you know, right, do people get pardons?

Then it's like, can states do it? And the federal government doesn't control the states. So like that kind of stuff you've got to just be careful about, I think. And you can't have it, you can't have it be dragging on for two years. But I do think you got to act fast in those first, in that like first month to sort of, and talk about it as rooting out corruption, right? And like you said, it is probably even more important to do it as substance than to do it as, I mean, the substance sends a message.

But it's not like, like, you just got to actually do the work behind the scenes to like root out, like, you know, de-trumpify the entire government. And if you're doing it all at once, then that's probably, even better because then they'll all bitch about it and scream and it'll be some stories like or so-and-so looking backwards, but then it'll go away after a month or two and then you're off to your agenda. My hope is that this is a big part of the project 2029. It's not just like who should be our undersecretary of whatever and what our global warming executive orders are. It is like how do we solve this problem and what is the playbook for doing that? And one thing

that a Democratic majority in Congress can do is they can use their investigative power to get the information now, to have it and be able to hand it to the next Democratic press or the next Democratic Attorney General on day one. If it is people, you can be prosecuted, do that, but then also for the purposes of rooting the people out, holding them accountable publicly all the above. Yeah. And you've got to have a good like forward looking perspective anti-corruption agenda and put in some reforms in place so that you can show people that this isn't going to happen again because we're actually going to put in laws instead of just having norms this time. Last thing before we get to Tommy's interview with Peggy Flanagan, RFK Jr., testified in Congress Thursday for the first time this year during a pair of hearings.

He's apparently doing seven altogether, where Democrats grilled him on cutting health programs like Medicaid and nutrition for women and infants, his anti-vax policies in the midst of a measles outbreak. And according to Representative Linda Sanchez, quote, spending taxpayer dollars to drink milk shirtless in a hot tub with Kid Rock. It is what happened. He did put the video out himself. What he wasn't asked about, however, is a new biography about him written by New York Post reporter Isabel Vincent, which contains the following excerpt from RFK Jr's private journal

written between 1999-2001. Quote, I was standing in front of my parked car on I-684, cutting the penis out of a road-killed raccoon, thinking about how weird some of my family members have turned out to be. Thankfully, even though RFK Jr. wasn't pressed on the raccoon penis during his testimony, TMZ's new DC operation was on hand to bring us this.

Secretary, what did you do with the raccoon's dead penis? Where is it now? Where's the penis now? Bear cubs, whale carcasses, and raccoon penises. Oh my. Can I get people a little behind the scenes here? Yes. Before we do our first editorial meeting, we kind of jot out what the contours of the show might be. And we always call the last thing here that's a little bit of fun. We call it dessert.

And all the outline it said, dessert colon raccoon penis. Which is, it could be literal for RFK Jr. Yeah, he has refused to answer questions about whether he ate the raccoon penis. No, he's apparently going to study it later.

This guy is fucking, I can't for what? Exactly. This is our, This is our health secretary, our health and human services secretary. I was, I was hoping when you were- Dead raccoon penis in his pocket. I know you were traveling.

Or is he happy to see you? Is that a dead raccoon penis in your pocket? Are you happy to see me? I got to say when I, when I woke up and saw that you said, dessert for a raccoon penis, I was a little disappointed because I know you were traveling yesterday and I was hoping that maybe you had, why would you have missed it? You don't miss anything. But I was hoping that maybe you had missed the story and I could surprise you with raccoon penis.

Yeah. I really saw it this morning. So you got my initial reaction was, oh, look, dessert, raccoon penis. Anyway, he didn't have a lot of good answers about everything else that he's fucked up as Health and Human Services Secretary. Like, why did you cancel pro-vaccine messaging public service announcements in the middle of a measles outbreak? And then he tried to say, well, we're doing better than other countries. And then the representative pointed out, no, we're actually not that the incidence of measles has risen here in the last two years faster than anywhere else. earth. So thank you, RFK Jr.

For all that you're doing for health. But I hope you're studying hard. I don't know. Sorry. Look, look. I didn't even try to. I mean, look, he has an agenda. His agenda is a dead raccoon penis in every pot.

Again, dumped the bear cub in the park after a botched attempt to skin it. That's one. Decapitated the whale carcass. cutting off the raccoon penis while thinking to himself, boy, have my family members turned out pretty weird. Yeah, those are all plot points in a Netflix serial killer documentary.

Yeah, well, there you go. All right, when we come back, poor Peggy Flanagan. Yes, what an intro. But when we come back, Tommy talks to Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan. Pots of America is brought to by Quince. This time of year might make you rethink

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quince.com slash crooked. My guest today is Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota in running to fill Senator Tina Smith, U.S. Senate seat. Peggy Flanagan, great to meet you. Thanks so much for having you. So you're running in a primary. We've extended an invitation to your opponent, representative Craig. So we'll double back with listeners when that happens.

So I want to start with some national stuff, some Senate-specific stuff, and then dig into some Minnesota-focused questions, if that's cool. A lot of grassroots voters, a lot of Democrats feel like Democrats in Congress are not fighting hard enough against the Trump administration. I'm sure you hear this all the time. The pushback you hear from the House side is like, hey, we have no power. I think the senators would probably say, you know, we just shut down the government for like 40 plus days last year.

DHS is shut down now. Maybe that's a lot of fighting back in their book. Where do you stand on this debate? Are they fighting hard enough? Well, I think, you know, what I'm hearing from folks as we're traveling across the state is that people are sick and tired of Democrats fighting from a defensive crouch or governing by sternly worded letter is something we hear a lot about. And I think, you know, fighting back can take on a lot of different tactics. I think, you know, Senate Democrats leading on the shutdown really mattered, right? especially after what we saw in the state of Minnesota with ICE, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more.

But I also think it means being in the community, listening directly to people about how they are experiencing the Trump administration, what they want you to fight for when you're there, but also using your platform and then getting out into the streets, I think that also matters, right? had over 50,000 people marching in downtown Minneapolis to show solidarity, but also to speak up. So there are lots of tools in our toolbox, but I just think people want to know that you're there for them, that you're fighting for them. And especially right now when we see the influence of corporate pack money, billionaires who have probably the biggest seat at the table in our politics. I think regular folks just want to be heard and want to know that when Dems come back into power, they are going to throw down on behalf of the American people. Yeah, I definitely want to ask you a lot about the ICE and CVP occupation of lots of Minnesota

and how inspiring the response was. But a couple more things. So, you know, another flashpoint, I think you hear with the left and center, I mean, a lot of places is whether Chuck Schumer should continue to be the leader of the Democrats, whether Senate Minority Leader or hopefully Senate Majority Leader, do you support Schumer keeping that job? I'll say this. I feel the same way about Chuck Schumer that he feels about me, uncommitted. What is uncommitted me? I've heard you say that before. Yeah. I think we should have a... Is this Minnesota nice saying no? This is Minnesota nice, but it's saying I think we need a progressive champion to lead the Senate Democrats.

And I think there's an example of a lot of leaders who are part of the group called the Fight Club. I'm sure you've heard of this group, right? The number one rule of Fight Club is that we're not supposed to talk about it, but right, we're going to talk about it. So that's senators, Warren, Smith, Sanders, Heinrich, Marky, Merkley, and, you know, this group in Van Hollen. And this group of folks, I think, are pushing back and are not. part of the Democratic establishment and are really looking for those progressive fighters, I think that's what we need. And I think that's what we're hearing from folks all across the country who are ready are ready for more. And so am I.

It's true to hear you say focus on sort of the policy argument. Because I think the other argument you hear generational. Yeah. And there's, I think, ongoing frustration that we had this long sort of tortured discussion about Joe Biden's age and voters, I think, pretty resoundingly told us he was too old for another term. And yet, the lessons learned have not translated to the Senate. Do you think there should be an age limit or term limits for the Senate? I think what we need are progressive fighters. And I think there are folks of all different ages who can take on that role. But what I'll also say is, you know, We don't have enough moms with kids under the age 18 serving in the Senate. There's only four. And boy, can you tell by the kind of, you know, lack of policies that have to do with, you know, paid family medical leave, child care, making sure that, you know, kids have access to health insurance. They don't know who Ms. Rachel is.

They don't know who Ms. Rachel is. That matters. Get it together. Absolutely. I mean, and if you haven't been moved by an episode of Bluey, what are you doing serving in this? the Senate. No, I, but I think, I think that that matters that our elected officials accurately reflect the communities they seek to represent, right? And so I think it matters that we have more young people who are serving in the Senate. I am not running to make history, but I think it matters that,

you know, we can elect the first Native American woman ever to serve in the U.S. Senate. That's healthy for democracy and it's good. And I think now as we're seeing these primary races, across the country, that's good for us. It is good for the party. It's good for democracy overall. And having people feel excited and engaged about politics, that's something we should all want right now, especially as we've got Donald Trump in the White House every day. I mean, yeah, just, yes, just doing really, and this is my Minnesota coming out, really, really, Interesting things, right? Interesting Donald's. Uh-huh.

Crypto's interesting. Yeah, that's right. I mean, and I just think it's an exciting time for our party if we choose, right? To lean into that excitement and not, you know, get caught up with the status quo. We are seeing it everywhere. The people are demanding more. They want more. They want folks who understand what it's like, right, to try to stretch 20 bucks through

the end of the month. And frankly, I think if we had more people in the Senate who knew what that was like, we wouldn't have passed this big ugly bill. So this is our opportunity. And I think we can reinvigorate the U.S. Senate and the Democrats who serve there. You could certainly use some invigoration. Yes. After Watergate, after Nixon, there was a wave of government reform. It was just, we didn't just, you know, that scandal didn't just take down the president, but it led to this, like, fundamental reshaping of American politics because people woke up and said, oh, that was bad. Let's not do that again.

Do you have a vision for what a post-Trump set of reforms could or should look like that the Senate should be hopefully working on right now? We'll say a couple things. I think there are too many folks who think, oh, once Trump's out of office, somehow everything will be okay. You learn that one the hard way. Right. Absolutely.

And we'll go back to, you know. sunshine and rainbows. We have to be, I think, very clear about what the consequences need to be for Donald Trump and for folks in his administration, right? Investigations, criminal charges, what we have been through in Minnesota, there has to be some kind of reckoning. We also have seen as Donald Trump, you know, one of his first moves once he got back into office was getting rid of 17 inspectors general, right? And the very people who police fraud, he has enriched himself. He has enriched, you know, his family. I think, you know, one of the biggest things we need to do is make sure that you can't get rich off of serving in public office. You're not going to bet

on whether we're going to depose dictators in Venezuela and stuff and Kelshi? I mean, it's not your thing. It's not my thing. I think, you know, Kelshi is another interesting, thing that exists. And we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be betting on our, our politics. But I would say, you know, holding these folks accountable, making sure that you can't enrich yourself. And then I think we have to look at reforms around the Supreme Court as well. And just people have to trust the government again. And when I think about the opportunity to get in there, I think we will take back the house. I think we have a real opportunity to take back the Senate. And then everyone has to be really clear what their job is, right?

You got to be in role. So what is this senator working on? What is this senator working on? How are we building a base of support for the reforms, for the policies that we want to move? So that once, you know, we get a new president in there, God willing, in 2028, thanks for knocking on wood, that we are then ready to go and rebuild. Because what we watched Elon Musk and his doge bros due to this government, we have to rebuild. And we have to do so with a lot of intention. So it is pushing for the policies that Americans want to be able to afford their lives and making sure that this authoritarianism that is just galloped into the White House and into Washington.

can never happen again. Yeah. Do you think Democrats should get rid of the filibuster? Oh, this is the tricky one, right? Because right now it's pretty helpful. But yes, I do because there are so many things that have gotten, you know, stopped, right? Good stuff, right? And I don't want, you know, Kirsten Cinema or Joe Manchin ask people to be able to, you know, stop progress

because they're, you know, bought and paid for by big corporations, right? Mitch McConnell. Yeah. What about the party saying, as a party, we're not going to take corporate PAC money. We're not going to take lobbyist money. Is that naive? Is that dooming ourselves to being outspent in every election? Like what kind of campaign finance reforms do you think are appropriate?

I mean, I think the fact that corporate PACs and billionaires are running the show in Washington is a fantastic reason why we shouldn't take that money. I mean, for me personally, I have made that decision in my campaign, and I think it really matters. It mattered a lot for Obama in 2007, I think. Yeah, I mean. Really did. It was a differentiator. Well, because people get it, right? Like, people understand it.

And let me tell you, like, I knew the corporations had a lot of power in Washington. It wasn't until I ran for Senate that I actually understood just how much. And so what did you learn in that process that kind of gave you that new window? I mean, it's just looking at how folks are like, oh, well, that's too much, right? Or when you say, like, I'm for Medicare for all, right? People are like, oh, but there's so many folks and, you know, the health insurance industry. And there are people, a librarian in Camby, Minnesota, who's paying a $16,000. deductible and just paid five bucks or sorry 500 bucks for a five minute med check right like that's that's real and so

i just think that this is a root of why we are where we are that big corporations billionaires have their thumb on the scale and our politics in a real way and what i would say is that i think this is the biggest contrast between myself and my primary opponent, Congresswoman Craig. This is where, you know, big oil, crypto, big pharma, APAC is, you know, they're all going to come in to this race. And for me, I can sleep at night because I'm not beholden to anybody but Minnesotans and I have integrity. But we also see in the Democratic Party as a whole, we should be the folks who, are fighting to protect the environment, not taking money from big oil. We should be the folks who are anti-war, right? Not snuggling up, you know, to APEC, who is a-okay with this war in Iran and what we

see happening in Lebanon and Gaza and the majority of Americans oppose it. And, you know, when we see these big corporations and corporate interests who are, you know, who are. keeping people who are making incredibly low-wage jobs who are struggling, Democrats should be the folks who are fighting against that, not saying please contribute to our campaigns. Because I think, you know, it's Tommy what you just said, like, people get it. You know, it's pretty disingenuous to say, you know, I'm going to, you know, regulate corporate, you know, cryptocurrency on one hand and then have your other hand outstretched

and be like, but also wink, wink, nudge, if you could pay for my campaign, that would be great. People are so much smarter than that. And so that, you know, and I think that's coming for us, right? What we saw in the state of Illinois in their primary that they, they just had, my friend and my sister, fellow lieutenant governor, Julianne Stratton, crypto spent $10 million in that race. APAC spent millions, right? And, you know, I know that they're going to come into Minnesota too. But what I also know is that people are starting to understand why this matters, right? I've been endorsed by N. Citizens United in this race. And I think the best way to get big money out of our politics is to demonstrate that you can run powerful grassroots campaigns that, you know,

are about the many and not the money, and you can still win. Do you, you mention APAC and, you know, the big fight in the Democratic Party about U.S. support for Israel. Does that lead you to feel like we should be cutting off military aid to Israel? For example, I know Bernie Sanders has a bunch of votes this week to try to cut off specific funding of weapon systems. Like, where do you land on that? Yeah, so if I was in the Senate right now, I'd be joining Senator Sanders and voting in support of those resolutions. And let me tell you that this was, you know, a year ago when he introduced the resolutions with regards to offensive weapon sales to Israel. I was asked how I would have voted for that.

And I said how I would have voted on it. And I said I would have voted alongside my Senator Tina Smith and Senator Amy Klobuchar in support of it. Because the same values that I have behind making sure that kids can eat breakfast and lunch at school, right, for free. Those are the same values behind, you know, supporting those resolutions. The suffering that we have seen is too much. Yeah. It's off the charts. Yeah.

If there's tools in our toolbox that we can use, we should use them. Agreed on that point. Let's turn to Minnesota. So some of Minnesota's neighbors, Iowa and Wisconsin, have drifted right. Iowa, pretty far right in the Trump era. Minnesota has not. Why? I mean, I think we really care about each other.

And, you know, we come from the state of Senator Paul Wallstone. And everybody knows, right, the bumper sticker, we all do better when we all do better, which is, you know, a famous quote from Paul. And I think people of all parties believe that in our state. We really care about fairness and looking out for our neighbor. And I think that's what you saw on display in the response to Operation Metro Surge. But I really think that that's what it's about, that folks just think you should be able to live a good life, you know, make your own choices and just feel successful. You bottle up whatever you got in the water over there. You mentioned a couple of times.

Trump and his cronies have spent a lot of time attacking Minnesota, a shocking amount of time, right? Tim Walls gets targeted all the time. ICE and CBP descended on the state. there's this obsessive focus on Congresswoman Ilan Omar, on the Somali community, allegations of fraud. Did it surprise you that Minnesota, like kind of had the eye of Soran trained on it like this? And like, what is the impact of those attacks been on people who just live there, like trying to live their lives? So I'd say a couple things. One, you know, fraud of any kind is completely unacceptable, right?

in Minnesota, if you commit fraud, you're going to be, you know, prosecuted for it. But I also want to say that if this was really about fraud from the Trump administration, they would have said 3,000 forensic accountants and not, you know, 3,000 ICE agents. Yeah, exactly. That's right. And so the impact that this has had on our state, I know that, you know, your listeners or your viewers probably watched the news and saw it and were horrified. But what people need to know is that it was so much worse in person. The trauma, the violence, the chaos, the things that people experienced. A couple, I guess I have a couple stories that I'd just like to share with you.

Like my little auntie who, you know, is in her son. 70s was forced off the road by ice. They surrounded her vehicle. And she, she's this cute little grandma. She rolled down her window. And she's like, hey, fellas, how can I help you? Right. And they said, where are you going? And, you know, she had a, she had a program. She was like, I literally was just leaving a funeral. You know, this is, this is the program from the funeral. And she's like, am I free to go? And they're like, yeah, go ahead. But she has a bumper sticker on her car that says Black Lives Matter. And she's like, I'm pretty sure that was targeted.

What authority did they have to pull someone over in the first place? That's crazy. Right? And this happened all over the state, right? We go to, I'm Catholic. So it's been a weird week. Weird week for Catholics. But I have to tell you, I've never been more proud to be Catholic in my entire life.

It is weird that your suitcase depicts you as Jesus. I know. Your staff thought it was normal. No, I'm a doctor. Yeah, I'm a doctor. Have you heard the theory that he thought, he was told to say it was doctored? Or then he said, I'm a doctor? I believe that theory.

100%. I thought on Twitter, but I buy it. Absolutely. Anyway, that's probably true. Yes, but. Run off the road. Yeah. And you also hear stories, right, of individuals who were just stopped in the street

simply because of the color of their skin. I'm Ojiboy. I'm Native American. We have a large urban native population. And there were a lot of Native folks who are literally wearing their tribal IDs around their neck. I mean, it's outrageous. And the children, right, Liam,

Liam Conejo-Ramos, that the Trump administration, right, detained in Texas. they're now back, but they're now being targeted aggressively for deportation. The children, I talked to a second grade teacher who said, the biggest thing I have to figure out every day is, you know, how I manage through children who are crying at different times throughout class. Like, it's horrific. And we go to a parish in North Minneapolis,

and we've got a lot of mixed status families there. And church was so empty. And on Christmas, there may be 40 people. It's usually hard to get a seat, right? And so, you know, throughout the occupation, we fed over 350 families. That work continues. People are afraid to leave their homes. They've been impacted financially in ways that I don't know if they'll ever recover.

You know, and what I can't get over is that there are going to be some children in our state who have an ACE score, an adverse childhood experience score, simply because there were federal agents in their neighborhood. I don't have another word for it, but I am running to avenge Minnesota and bring justice for our people. The drawdown has occurred. I still has a presence. They're more insidious now. But this certainly didn't just focus on the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul. We were traveling across the state. We had a statewide tour.

and at multiple events, people's phones went off because they were all part of a group that was doing rapid response, where ICE was at a daycare center, where they were at a construction site or a restaurant. And so I think people are starting to try to get back to normal, but this has changed. This has changed us. And on Palm Sunday, it was packed. And there were kids crying and laughing and toys dropping on the floor. And it was like a lot of chaos. And it was totally beautiful.

Yeah, another good kid chaos. Yeah. Like it just, so folks are coming back. But this is the financial. impact of the center state, the emotional impact, the impacts on mental health, the economy, it is unforgivable. And so what the federal government laid at our doorstep, they have to repair and heal and restore. You know, you think you spoke incredibly powerfully to the impossible to quantify emotional impact. I mean, I, you know, for every story like Liam, there's other stories we all read of like,

kids who were just didn't go to school for three months, hiding in their houses, you know, and like the, how we ever fix that, you know, like how we ever be able to help those kids readjust or not be afraid. You also mentioned the just pure economic impact. I mean, I read that businesses in Minneapolis and St. Paul were reporting $300 million in losses. How do they recover from that? Or how are they, how are you guys able to help them recover from You know, I governed under COVID, and we at least had more of a partnership than an adversary and had resources. And now, right, it's the folks who caused this chaos and violence and killed two Minnesotans, right, who are supposed to be the ones who are our partners in recovery. I will tell you that we have watched Minnesotans step up in a major way.

Mutual aid. People who are standing outside of daycares and schools. You know, in their neighborhoods, there's literally people who stand outside of our parish every Sunday just to make sure that we can worship safely. The financial contributions have been incredible. philanthropy has responded, but it's not enough. And at the state level, you know, there's, there are some things that we can do. I am hopeful that there will be some rental assistance that will be able to get past this legislative session. But we have divided government or a tie in our house. And so that will be difficult. But the recovery is going to be long. And I think this,

again is one of the reasons why, you know, we need folks in Congress and Senate who understand the need for investment in this recovery. We can start by clawing back the $75 billion that was given to ICE to terrorize Minnesotans. It's a good place to start. Yes, it's a good place to start. I like that idea. I mean, as you know better than I do, and Minnesota has a reputation, well-earned one for being a generous place to live because of all the social services. And as I mentioned now, I mean, the Minnesotans are facing all these accusations of fraud, maybe up to a billion dollars or the fraud. Republicans are using those allegations, those instances, to try to undercut the entire

concept of a welfare state, right, to suggest that all governments are corrupt and we're wasting your money. And why don't we just give a big tax cut to everybody, hint the billionaires and claw it all back, right? How do you think we can fight back on those kind of attacks on sort of like the kind of governance that you and I believe in. For sure. Well, I'd say a couple of things. One, you know, like I said, the fraud is completely unacceptable. I'm a recovering executive director and will tell you of Children's Defense Fund, Minnesota. So people stealing money from the most

vulnerable folks in our state makes me pretty angry. And so, you know, the governor and the legislature have put in place policies to stop fraud, to prevent fraud. And I still have hope that this legislative session, there'll be more that's able to get done. Republicans have voted down several measures, right, that would be helpful when it came to combating fraud. And so I hope that their better angels will arrive and they will vote in favor of some of these policies because I think... Better angels like J.D. Vance? You want him to come? Our ceilogian, right, J.D. Vance. You mentioned going church a few times.

What did you think of J.D. Vance saying the Pope shouldn't weigh in on war? If the Pope was mad at me and this Pope specifically, I would die. And like if my own priest was mad at me, I would feel like just or disappointed in me. Like that would be the worst. But if the Pope was mad at me, I would just be like, and pack it in. Like, I'd be like, that's it. I got to go. Yeah.

I mean, we've all accused, I think, J.D. Vance of sort of selling his political soul to get into Donald Trump's graces and do anything for power. But he's really going to literal here. But I think, like, speaking of J.D. Vance, of someone who grew up on the margins and has completely had his brain sucked out and forgotten where he comes from, right? This for me, I think, is also really important. for us to talk about why these programs matter, right? I'm a kid who, you know, moved to the community of St. Louis Park where I still live with my family. My mom had a Section 8 housing voucher, and that's how she did it. That's how we paid the rent. Snap, which back in the day we called food stamps was how we kept food on the table. I was that kid with a different colored lunch ticket.

And Medicaid, or what's known as medical assistants in Minnesota, was what kept me alive. I missed a lot of school. I was sometimes in the hospital more than I was out in elementary school. And so I am alive because of those programs. And when I think about, you know, my mom, she worked so hard. And she went back to school and was able to do so because of the child care assistance program. She went back to school. She got her certificate in phlebotomy. So she's a professional vampire, as we like to say.

And I remember when she walked across the stage. And she got her diploma. She was in like a bright blue cap and gown. And it felt like I was walking across that stage. All of those investments helped to lift my family towards the middle class. And now I get to pay that forward and pay it back in service. That's what we have to talk about, right? And for children, our seniors, people who don't make enough.

money to qualify, right, for, for, you know, or get health care through their employer, we can't forget about people. And that I think is what I hope still makes us Minnesotans and still makes us Americans is that we care about each other and that we're going to wrap our arms around you when you need help. And then you're going to pay that back. And that I think is one of the things that's just completely missing from this conversation. Just hearing you talk, I hear I can tell you worked for Paul Wellstone. I mean, odds are you did if you're in Minnesota politics, right? For those who don't know what Paul Wilson was, I mean, truly one of the more most inspiring people in political life when I was sort of like coming up in politics and working on the hill.

I desperately wanted to work for him. He was killed tragically. Can you just talk about Paul Wellstone, what he meant to you? like kind of how he shaped your career in the course of Minnesota politics? I mean, I exist because of Paul Wallstone. I was literally driving past the Wellstone for Senate office in 2002, my senior year of college at the University of Minnesota. And I was like, you know what?

I like Paul Wallstone. Like, I'm just going to stop. Really? Just popped in. Just popped in. And again, now I know as my friend Chris, was like, hey, are you here to volunteer and I was like, oh, I guess, sure, okay. And I stuffed envelopes, which isn't really a thing we do anymore. But yeah, I stuffed envelopes for two hours with like complete strangers. And I was

like, this is amazing. And I went back every single day. And so I started off doing, you know, tasks that just needed to be done. And then ended up leading our urban native organizing work, which, you know, as you know, is how things happen on campaigns, right? Suddenly you're running the thing. Exactly. If you're good, here's more work. That's right. And so, you know, I was so moved by that experience and really just like seeing real people and who,

and everybody felt like, that's our guy, right? Paul's our guy. He's our senator. If it's the native community, the Somali community, folks up on the Iron Range, like, Everybody claimed him. And it was because he spent time with people all over the state and really, like, listen to them and met them and cared for them. And that is, you know, when we talk about politics the Wallstone Way, right, that's what it's about. It's about making sure that you're meeting people where you're at, they're at, and that the policies that you push for are directly informed by the people who are most important.

And I remember this moment when after he had died, and Walter Mondale, former vice president was running in his place. And so we had to handmake a bunch of signs. And I'd mark her all over my arm and it was like hot in the back room. And it was, you know, and I looked around the room and I was full of people. from all different walks of life. And I was like, oh, this, this is what I'm supposed to do. And I didn't think at the time at all that it meant run for political office. I just thought it meant like I'm going to be part of campaigns and organizing work.

And then I was taken under the wing of a lot of Wellstone campaign folks and worked at Wellstone Action for almost a decade after. training people, tens of thousands of people across the country to run for political office. That's great. If people want to have their own Wellstone moment working for you, where do they go? How can they do it? Sure. Folks can visit Peggyflanagan.com. We'd love to have you on Team Peggy. It's going to take all of us. Well, thank you for coming in. It's great to get to talk to you. Thanks so much. That's our show for today. Thanks to Peggy Flanagan for coming on. Dan will be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with David Packman. Have a good weekend, everybody.

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