Pod Save America - “The Media’s Afghanistan Amnesia.”

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

NPR’s Sam Sanders joins Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor to talk about the political fallout and lessons (not) learned from Afghanistan, Democratic anxiety over the midterms, and the increasing radicalism of the Republican base. Then, Jon quizzes Tommy and Sam on their knowledge of California’s wild list of gubernatorial candidates in a game called “Do You Recall?”For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Tommy Vitor. And back again with us today while Lovett's on vacation is the host of NPR's It's Been a Minute, Sam Sanders. Welcome back to the pod, man. Thank you for having me. I gotta say, this is my first time in a studio since last March. I've been doing my job from home for over a year, so all of this is strange. We are honored to have you. This is great.

How does it feel so far? We're honored to have you. Yeah, this is great. Last time we had you, you were in Texas too. How does it feel so far? Yeah, yeah. It feels like it's going to be so smooth because I think we've all gotten used to in the last year doing the whole like, no, you first. Oh, you first. Zoom thing.

And this might not be that. No, this is a little bit easier. Yeah, yeah. On today's show, President Biden touts progress on Afghan evacuations as he takes political hits back home. Republican politicians are catering to a base that's getting more extreme by the day. And I quiz Tommy and Sam on their knowledge of California's wild list of gubernatorial candidates in a game known as Do You Recall? Oh, okay. This is all news to me, too. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun. But first, some good news. Love It or Leave It is coming back to New York City. Our very own John Lovett is bringing the show to the New York Comedy Festival on November 12th at the Beacon Theater. Tickets are on sale now, so go get yours at cricket.com slash events.

And, as we mentioned before, Rebecca Nagel is back with a brand new season of This Land, where she'll take you inside her year-long investigation into a series of custody battles over Native American children, battles that reveal how radical right-wing activists are trying to quietly dismantle American Indian tribes. The first two episodes are out now, so listen and subscribe to This Land wherever you get your podcasts. Also, Rebecca did a fantastic interview on What A Day This Morning about season two that I highly recommend. It gets into more details. Yeah, I was working on that the second season for the last couple of months. It is fantastic. You should go check it out as soon as you can. All right, let's get to the news.

The president gave a press conference on Sunday where he talked about the 37,000 Americans and Afghans the U.S. military has now evacuated since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan last week. He also said the military is, quote, executing a plan to bring thousands of other stranded Americans to the airport. And he promised that all the evacuated Afghan refugees would be given a home in the United States. Here's a clip. Let me be clear. The evacuation of thousands of people from Kabul is going to be hard and painful,

no matter when it started, when we began. It would have been true if we had started a month ago It's just a fact. My heart aches for those people you see. We are proving that we can move thousands of people a day out of Kabul. We're bringing our citizens, NATO allies, Afghanis who would help have factories and other people who would help us. We're bringing our citizens, NATO allies, Afghanis who would help us. We're bringing our citizens, NATO allies, Afghanis who in fact have helped us in the war effort. But we have a long way to go.

And a lot could still go wrong. Tommy, how's the evacuation effort going at this point? And what are some of the major challenges the administration is facing in trying to evacuate both Americans and Afghans? So I would say it's pretty chaotic still, but getting better. So as of Monday morning, the White House said that they've evacuated or facilitated the evacuation of 37,000 people from Afghanistan since August 14th. The best part of that stat is that the tempo of evacuations is increasing. They said the military said they had got 16,000 people

out in the last 24 hours. So very tense situation. You're still seeing these huge crowds in front of the gates of the airport. The White House is worried about potential ISIS attacks. Jake Sullivan, the national security advisor, talked about on Sunday shows. There was a sniper attack last night on some Afghan commandos who were doing security still in support of the U.S. military mission. So, you know, you're going to still see some scary images, some reports of people getting trampled. But it does sound like the pace of the evacuations has increased and hopefully that can get them to their goal. Although Biden said that if they're not completed by August 31st, he'd be open to pushing the deadline again. So that's out there.

Sam, in light of the criticism Biden's received over the last week, particularly around not being empathetic enough towards the Afghan people, what do you think of his statement on Sunday that there was no way to evacuate this many people without the pain and loss and heartbreaking images that the president himself said broke his heart? There were perhaps some different ways. And I think there was a better way for the administration to let Americans know what we might be in for. It was so unexpected to see those images of Afghans falling off of our planes after Joe Biden and his team for months had been saying that it was going to be at least a lot smoother, right? And so I get it when they say that us leaving had to be chaotic,

but I think there should have been some better messaging to help us know what to expect. I also think that team Biden really overestimated the strength of the Afghan military. It's important to note that the Afghan military for years was only really functional when the U.S. was there right beside them. We had this idea years ago that we could build a Western government in Afghanistan. We couldn't do that. And I think even after that, American leaders said that they could build a Western-style military. Probably not. And no one told us that. And, you know, to see Team Biden say, oh, the soldiers are retreating. No, they just can't do it without us. Yeah. Yeah. I think the point Biden's probably trying to make is that you could have processed

and evacuated all the SIV visa holders or future SIV visa holders. Those are the interpreters. All the, you know, the P2 visas, the people who worked with USAID or media organizations, they all could have gotten out a week ago. And you still probably would have seen huge crowds of people who are scared, who have not worked for the U.S. in some capacity, who still want out of there. Right. Those would be the heartbreaking images. I think that's true, but a bit of a non sequitur, right? To your point, because we should have gotten people out faster. That's a longer story that we should talk about. What I think is getting a little bit lost in both the coverage and the Biden messaging is the broader cost of the war over 20 years. So Brown University, as is saying,

they do the cost of war project. It's a great website that aggregates the cost, both financially and in human terms of the wars after 9-11. They estimate that over 170,000 Afghan citizens have been killed in direct fighting since 2001. That includes 70,000 Afghan soldiers and police, nearly 50,000 civilians and around 50,000 Taliban. And not a lot of coverage of that. Well, right. Like those numbers also don't include death, disease, hunger. Right. But I think it's totally understandable that what we're seeing now is focused on stories of people who can't get out scary images from these crowds, et cetera. But it's really hard to adequately convey how much suffering this war has created for the Afghan people. But I do think that is why it's actually important for us to end our war effort there. Yeah. How far do you think the

current case scenario is from what the best case scenario of this departure could have been? I mean, I think that, well, that's a great question. I think the best case scenario would have been that over the past 10 years or more, the visa process went much faster. We got these special immigrant visas out. The Trump administration, when they cut a deal to withdraw, should have expedited the visa process immediately. And we should have figured that piece of this out, right? Because I think when there's criticism of what Biden did, it's about these potential or future visa holders. I think ending the war, as he said, would always require a peace deal with the Taliban, some sort of negotiated settlement, some sort of, you know, potential civil war effort between the Afghan

forces and the Taliban. And so, you know, it could have been messier. It could have been a lot smoother. We just don't really know. Yeah. I mean, a number of outlets have now been digging into how the U.S. withdrawal devolved into chaos. I thought the New York Times piece was quite good. It basically said that, as we've been saying, you know, our intelligence officials believed a Taliban takeover wouldn't happen for at least 18 months. So the Biden folks thought they had more time to evacuate people. That seems to be the main issue here. Even though, you know, it also points out that refugee groups were urging the White House in May to begin mass evacuations.

But it said that that might have required more U.S. troops as Biden had just announced a withdrawal. have required more U.S. troops as Biden had just announced a withdrawal. And the Afghan government apparently worried that a mass evacuation would, quote, amount to a vote of no confidence in the government and its forces. And that's something that President Ghani communicated directly to President Biden. Tommy, does that all sound about right to you? And did you find anything else notable in that piece? I mean, it makes sense. You know, I can't say if it's right or wrong, but it makes sense. I mean, Ashraf Ghani was sitting there thinking that if you rush out all these people, it will look like a vote of no confidence for my government, which could precipitate its collapse. And I understand why the Biden administration would hear that and think, okay, we need to

low key this. Clearly, they also just thought they had a lot more time. And I like I understand, I haven't heard anyone say they thought Kabul would fall immediately, but it does sort of sound like it comes down to these logistics issues you were talking about. And without the U.S. government support and contractor support for the Afghan military, they just couldn't do the job. Yeah, well, and I think it's a question of like what Afghan soldiers are being asked to do, what they could do, and where their loyalties might actually lie. A lot of the folks that were working for the Afghan military also had ties to the

Taliban and were sympathetic to them. Many of them didn't have the proper training to do the basic art of soldiering without the U.S. to help. Lots of these soldiers could not read or write, could not read the maps. I mean, they couldn't read read the maps. Right. And so I don't know. I think a lot of Americans don't understand how fragile the Afghan military has been for years. How fragile are they? I mean, so, you know, there's been this training mission that's gone on forever. on forever. But, you know, there have been lots of reports over the years of so-called ghost soldiers who are just, you know, soldiers whose names are put on the rolls so that they get a paycheck, but it just gets siphoned off by some, you know, commander or local government leader.

There have been tons of reports of, you know, weapons being turned over, you know, or sold or found in Taliban hands elsewhere. So I think, you know, the 300,000 number for the Afghan security forces, I think, has been known to have been wildly inflated for some time. There were like these pretty impressive elite commando forces who were fighting hard until the last minute in places like Kandahar. And it does sound like Ghani also made a tactical error by not trying to bring back some of his forces from more remote areas, reconstituting them around civilian populations and just defending those. And again, but you think about it from his perspective, like he can't look like he's abandoning parts of his country if he's going to now lead it. Yeah. One thing I saw in that piece that I hadn't known before was that

the embassy, the U.S. embassy in Afghanistan told staff to depart on April 27th, and then they told all American citizens to leave as soon as possible on May 15th. Were you surprised that, I mean, I don't know how this works, but were you surprised there's so many Americans left there even after the embassy put that message out? Is that just because it didn't get to people? And who are these Americans? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you're in Kabul and you're an American, you have a reason. Maybe you're a dual citizen. Maybe you're married to somebody. Maybe your job requires you to be there. If you are a foreign service officer, you're reading the same intelligence reports that makes you believe that you have six to 12 months

to do your job and you believe in your mission and you are committed to the task and you want to process all these visa requests and do these in-person interviews with former interpreters, USAID contractors, et cetera, et cetera, and actually get these Afghan people out because the SIV process is so onerous and painstaking and cumbersome and requires paperwork and interviews, in-person interviews that it just couldn't possibly be done in this short period of time. And it was made even harder because of COVID, because people couldn't have in-person meetings for like, what, a year, a year or more. And so I'm sure these are just like committed professionals who are like, no, we're going to stick around and do our job. Sam, I want to get to the politics in a second. But just while we have you here,

I would love to hear your thoughts on how you think the coverage has been, the media coverage has been, because there's been some criticism that the media has focused a lot on how you think the coverage has been, the media coverage has been, because there's been some criticism that the media has focused a lot on how the withdrawal has been chaotic, but not as much on sort of the lessons from this 20-year conflict. Well, the lessons, like that's where I'm like still demoralized and thinking through what it all means.

Because for me, the last big news story that we all focused on before Afghanistan and what's happening there now was Jeff Bezos taking his almost spaceship almost to space. And you juxtapose this imagery of the world and America's richest man taking a flaming phallic symbol almost to to the, almost to the seal of space, but not quite getting it all the way up. And then you turn around and you see America fail in the biggest way

in a war it's been fighting for 20 years. And I, as an American who just irrationally still loves this country, I'm like, what the hell are we doing? And I think there's a lot of who got out right, who did it wrong, which party is up, where do these people go? A lot of right now questions. But this is probably a moment to

just reflect big picture about what the hell America is doing. There are so many big stories that I see today that just show that we're a country that feels a lot more rudderless than I thought we would be right now. You know, we don't win wars anymore. We can't beat a pandemic. We have a wishy-washy relationship to science. The world is on fire and we don't care. We don't agree on anything.

And this image, all of these images make me say, what politician, what leaders, what institutions are asking us the larger existential questions of what are we doing and where the hell are we going? And I do not think that any politician working right now and any real institution is equipped to lead those conversations and to have those conversations. And I would hope that in the midst of something that symbolizes a really big change in what America means for the world, I'd hope that we'd have some larger conversations. But I haven't heard it or seen it in mainstream news outlets, including my own. Well, I was going to say, it's also, it's not only difficult to find politicians who are willing to have those conversations,

but it's difficult to find spaces to have those conversations. Without it becoming a fight. Right. I was going to say, because the spaces we have right now aren't doing so well. Yeah. Like debating the Afghan withdrawal on Twitter, not going so well so far. No, no. I mean, there was sort of a bunch of arguments

that broke out between journalists over the weekend. You know, there's this amazing reporter named Chris Chivers, C.J. Chivers. It's usually his byline. New York Times reporter. He wrote an incredible book called The Fighters that follows a lot of human stories of men and women who fought in post 9-11 wars that I can't recommend enough. He is someone who has been a vocal opponent of these wars for a long time, who has called out administration lies or

exaggerations, right? He's been someone who's been like on it and calling bullshit the whole time. He made the point on Twitter last night that what you're also seeing from a lot of the people who are in Afghanistan or covering what's happening is the human element, which is that they worked with translators. They know people who are scared to death and they are personally in, they're part of the story because these journalists are trying to get them out.

Right. So you can understand that humanity. Of course, that's going to come through in the coverage. But I agree with you that there are not a lot of voices that are expressing humility. Admiral Mike Mullen was on ABC News over the weekend and he said, in retrospect, yeah, we should have, we should have gone earlier than we did. He said that he advised President Obama that we could turn it around in Afghanistan and he was wrong. I give him a lot of credit for being one of the few people saying that because you read like Dave Petraeus interviewed in The New Yorker by Isaac Chotner, who's usually like really tough on his interview subjects. And he's making the same points, which is like, I needed more time, more troops. We lacked resolves. It's like, well, 20 years isn't resolved. It's a lot of time. I think it brings up a larger question that I don't think a lot of people have good answers for, which is how do you protect and defend human rights around the world beyond military intervention?

Right. And so a lot of these, and I think a lot of reporters, even the ones like, like CJ, who worked closely with Afghan translators and the Afghan people, you know, the question is when there are oppressive regimes around the world, your, your choices either, if you're someone like the United government, like the United States, do you intervene militarily or do you find other ways to protect human rights? And I don't know that there are a lot of easy answers there, which is why you face choices about war. And there isn't a lot of trust about what we are across the world. You know, it's hard to say, you know, after something like Afghanistan, that America can approach other places, you know, with a clean slate or, you know, be totally fair players. Like, is there trust enough to even do anything other than have a military intervention?

Right. Yeah. I think the lesson we should all learn is humility and that we cannot force human rights at the point of a gun. You know, the horrible trade-off is that life under the Taliban might be horrifying and awful and evil for some people, but life under military occupation was awful and horrible. And that, but life under military occupation was awful. And yeah, and that is a point that gets lost, right? Not just not a cost just for the US, but a cost for the Afghan people. Like, look, people talk about US casualties in Afghanistan, you really rarely hear the civilian death toll number cited, or, you know, like, I think that's why people were offended by President Biden's critique of the Afghan security forces, because something like 69,000 Afghan army and police

were killed since the war started. And that is a massive number of casualties. Yeah. So the Times had another shit burger of a piece for the White House this weekend that was entirely predictable because it involved more than 40 Democrats, lawmakers, strategists, and party officials unburdening themselves to reporters about their midterm anxieties over Afghanistan and the Delta surge, which is always a constructive thing to do. That's the way to fix the problem is to talk to The Times about it. The Times notes that these Democrats are particularly worried about losing moderate swing voters and independents, a concern that's not entirely unfounded, according to a pair of NBC and CBS polls released over the weekend that show Biden's approval rating dipping to around 49, 50 percent, with NBC showing the biggest declines coming from independents, rural residents and white voters.

So, Tommy, Bill McInturff, who helped conduct the NBC poll, he's a Republican pollster. He said, quote, The best way to understand this poll is to forget Afghanistan. So I'll take that to mean he doesn't think the issue is having a big effect on Biden's approval ratings. And then it's more the pandemic and the economy. But what do you think of what do you think of that, first of all? And then what do you make of all the Afghanistan polling you've seen in these last weeks? The best number I saw in these polls was in the CBS poll. these polls was in the CBS poll, 81% of voters said they want the U.S. to help Afghan interpreters come to the U.S., including 76% of Republicans. So that kind of restored my faith in humanity a

bit. Yeah. I mean, I think we need to watch it. It'll change, but I think you see those images. Early days. The propaganda machine hasn't cranked up yet. Right. But look, Tucker Carlson was on TV last week saying, first we invade, then they invade us. Right. He's talking about Afghan civilians as invaders. You have Stephen Miller out there. Right. So I'm yeah, I'm genuinely worried about this. I do think there's cause for concern when you're the president and what people are seeing is chaos, stories or assertions that the U.S. was humiliated or defeated or that there's a greater risk from Al Qaeda. Like those are all things that I think are not support or oppose withdrawal, but could be problems for Biden. But it's not a surprise that Delta variant is really driving this. Well, also, when I first saw the number that he was down to 49%, I said, oh, that was Trump's high point. That was Trump's high point, right? And so these numbers don't exist in a vacuum. And by the time we get to midterms, it's always going to be tight between both parties.

I also think a lot of these moderate independent swing voters, they don't check in really until just before the election. And we're what, still over a year away from that? So much could change. So let's look at the poll numbers, but let's understand where they exist and how they exist. And it's a long time away from that. One of the most salient qualities of swing voters is what you point out, no one ever talks about this, is that they're just not as engaged they're not checking this stuff out and so maybe when they do engage it's sort of what tommy was just saying they see images of chaos on the television they um are sick of the pandemic they know about that they don't feel the economy's back yet so you ask them how they feel they're like not pretty not great to your point that you were making earlier just sort of about broader

views of the united states and where we are right now. I thought it was interesting in the NBC poll, 29% say the country's headed in the right direction. That's down seven from their last poll. 54% say they're pessimistic about the country's future. Only 24% think the economy is excellent or good. And more people think the worst of the pandemic is yet to come than has already passed I agree on all of that. I agree on all counts. I actually thought Biden's approval would be lower compared to all. Yeah. But I mean, this is the thing. It's like it's hard to overstate how much everything is unsettled for everybody right now. Yes. We've still got millions of Americans across the country who are reluctant to go back to their jobs. You know, that's still happening in the midst of the Delta variant, in the midst of Afghanistan, in the midst of all this other

crazy stuff. It's like, which also means that Americans by and large are engaging with partisan politics in general period, a lot less than you think, because they're trying to get their lives together. Most families right now are trying to see if their kids can go back to school safely right now. You know, who's up and who's down in D.C. is bottom of the list, I think. Yeah. To your point about 49 being Trump's high watermark, Dave Weigel at The Washington Post had a hilarious tweet this morning where he said, President's approval rating below 50%. You know what that means? Trips to Biden country to ask Biden voters why they still support him. Googling diners in Marin County, BRB at this yoga studio that sells lattes with activated charcoal. They never stop saying

malarkey. Like I think it's such a funny joke that is true about how Trump was was covered in these moments. Yeah. Well, but to that point, also, I thought it was interesting in the NBC poll that Democrats are not Biden's problem here. So he had a 90 percent approval among Democrats in April and only 88 percent today. That's only a two point drop. Do you think it should be that high for him with Democrats? I think it is. It feels Trumpian.

When I hear that number for him, it's like paralleling what the GOP was doing for Trump for years. It does. It seems Trumpian on its surface. I actually think it's broader than that. I think it is the fact that we are just growing more polarized as a country. Yeah. And I think that's the answer to, you know, Biden's approval, even though it has, quote, dropped to 40 and 50 percent. It's going to be held up to a certain level. There's going to be a high floor, much like there. I mean, even Trump had a floor that was higher than we thought

it should be, because I think that polarization has made Democrats just more supportive of their president and their politicians no matter what happens. Yeah. Because you would think, okay, all these scenes of chaos and Afghanistan, it's got to get to Democrats at some point too. So far, we're not seeing that yet. Well, yeah. And I wonder, you know, a few weeks ago, everyone was thinking that the issue of the midterms was going to be critical race theory. We kind of forgot about that. Where is that? And so like, how do we know what's going to be the big thing in the month or two ahead of the midterms? You don't know. You can't know, which is why I think larger conditions like the state of the economy and the pandemic, I still think will end up driving

a lot of vote. Yeah. One way or the other by the time you get to the midterm. How does Fauci feel by next October? Right. That's the question. Yeah. And again, I think what's helping Biden here is that I think a lot of people blame, fairly or not, the unvaccinated population for the Delta spike. Yeah. And not Biden, who they can see is like trying to get people to do the one thing we need to do to solve the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about another extremist faction looking to destabilize a democratically elected government. Of course, that's a segue. You thought about that one. You wrote that down. Yeah.

Few developments over the last several days that I think we should keep an eye on. I wanted to talk about this on Thursday. A right wing extremist who was arrested for threatening to bomb the United States Capitol received what reads like a sympathetic tweet from Alabama Republican Congressman Mo Brooks. It said, quote, Generally speaking, I understand citizenry anger directed at dictatorial socialism and its threat to liberty, freedom, and the very fabric of society. But the way to stop socialism's march is for patriotic Americans to fight back in the 2022 and 2024 election. What was that, Mad Libs? Wild, wild tweet, wild, wild comment on when someone threatens to bomb the Capitol. Later that day, Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz,

Matt Gaetz still kicking. He's still around. They held a MAGA rally in Des Moines, Iowa, where, according to The New York Times, they promised to support the January 6th rioters who'd been arrested. And Greene also declared that the United States now faces a new, quote, axis of evil made up of the media, Democrats, and big tech. Then on Sunday, Donald Trump's rather lame attempt to encourage people

to get vaccinated at his rally in Alabama, where there are no ICU beds left, was met with boos. Take a listen. I believe totally in your freedoms. I do. You got to do what you have to do.

But I recommend take the vaccines. I did it. It's good. Take the vaccines. But you got, no, that's okay. That's alright. You got your freedoms. But I happen to take the vaccine. There were four years where we heard his voice every day. Wow.

That was really bad. That's my first question to you, Sam. I'm always torn about highlighting all this lunacy because on one hand, you don't want to give it oxygen. Yeah. On the other, like, this is what's happening with one of the country's two major political parties. Yeah. I mean, what do you think? I think it's like, how do we get to a larger, bigger conversation?

You know, there is a question directly about how much mainstream media gives fuel to these fires. And are we gassing these folks up and helping them out by doing it? Because they want it, right? They want the attention. And I think like instead of parsing what they're saying and parsing whether it will work or not, I think we all need to ask ourselves the ways in which we are complicit in this type of behavior. ask ourselves the ways in which we are complicit in this type of behavior and the ways and we don't check this stuff when we hear it from friends and family in our daily lives. And I think even the fact that we talked about the threat of another Capitol bombing and didn't spend time thinking about the severity of that. It's like, are we complicit in the numbing of ourselves to the dangers that we're facing right now? And so like, we can have a conversation about specifically

what Marjorie Taylor Greene is saying, but I don't know. I want to at some point figure out how do we keep being a nation that produces Marjorie Taylor Greene's? And where does that stop? I have no answers. which I highly recommend. And at the beginning of the book, he talks about Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing and the way that was covered and the way we responded to it as compared to 9-11. And so McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh was inspired

by white supremacist writings like the Turner Diary. He was, it was very much a white supremacist act of terror and movement. And it took us like a decade or two to realize that. Yes.

Collectively. And it was glossed over and his motives were framed in the way Mo Brooks is framing this guy's motives, which are like liberty, blah, blah, blah. Right. And then the government's response to this mostly white homegrown extremism as compared to how he responded to 9-11 with the war on terror policies and the Patriot Act was night and day. And I'm not saying that the global war on terror response was good. It was horrible. But I think it's like we need to be more cognizant of what he's inciting.

Yes. And cognizant of the ways in which race underlies all of these things. You know, like a lot of that rhetoric from Marjorie and from Matt Gaetz, it is incredibly racially coded. And a lot of our notions of American idealism and hegemony are influenced by white supremacy, right? And I think that we are complicit in allowing these things to continue until we acknowledge the through line of race in so many of these stories and have a real higher level conversation about how we move past it. And I hate to get all red table talk this whole episode, but like it

requires some larger existential questions that unfortunately just will not be coming out of the beltway. Yeah. Well, and of course, in that same rally with Green and and gates gates said that um uh defense secretary lloyd austin first black man to ever hold that office to have told that the cabinet position um is the stupidest person to ever serve in the cabinet ever stupidest right which of course after after he called uh ilhan omar a traitor to america oh yeah forgot about that one too oh sorry that was green who said that it's hard to keep dumb and dumber mean, part of the reason I wanted to bring this up is because it does feel like we are operating in two different realities. And in one reality, there's the Biden administration and it's a normal presidency, normal in the sense that they have successes, they have failures, there's criticism directed towards them, they deal with the criticism, like everything you expect to play out over the course of a presidency. There's criticism directed towards them. They deal with the criticism, like everything you expect to play out over the course of a presidency.

Then in another reality, you have a good chunk of the Republican Party who believes that the people who attack the Capitol are good and life-saving vaccines are bad. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, you know, Thursday came and went and, you know, there was a guy who threatened to bomb the Capitol who was a right-wing extremist. And folks were like, oh, okay. It was almost nowhere. But it's like that Republican Party, as one of two major parties in the country,

they're going to get a vote. Yeah. They're going to have a nominee. They're going to have politicians that they put up for office. Like, we kind of have to pay attention. Yeah, yeah. And it's like,

we all have to also acknowledge the ways in which we're complicit in it. You know, like, so the craziest part for me about watching the imagery of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, it was like around the same time that I was watching

the White Lotus finale. And I remember getting to the end of that show saying, those dumb imperialist Americans going on vacation in Hawaii, taking all of those native stuff. I had just been in Hawaii

two weeks earlier for a wedding. I was just there. And I think that some of these larger conversations require Republicans and Democrats and people of all races to say, we can be both the beneficiaries of American imperialism and the victims of it. We can be both the beneficiaries of American partisan politics and also the victims of it.

And these cut and dry lines of who did it right and who is doing things wrong, they only get you so far. And the larger macro conversations about what our role really is in this stuff, that's going to be required. Because like, I mean, I hate to say it again, but like Marjorie Taylor Greene is a creation of all of us. Yeah. It's a creation of all of us. It's a creation of all of us. And how do we have conversations and cultures across the country that stop letting that stuff happen? Yeah.

And you also, again, if you're going to have that kind of reflection, you need the time to reflect on it. And often we are just on to the next thing as fast as possible. So there's not a lot of time to sit, to stop, step back and say, I mean, like we were talking about with Afghanistan. All right, what lessons have we learned?

It's just like, all right, what's the next headline? Let's go. No, yeah. No, Ackerman's book gets into this too. After 9-11, history started

the minute after the 9-11 attacks for us. And American exceptionalism meant that we were a force for good in the world and the people that attacked us were evil. And Susan Song Tang and other people who tried to like talk about the complexity of

the U.S. relationship to Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, the fact that we supported the Mujahideen when they were fighting against the Soviets were run out of town, were drummed out of the conversation. And even when like State Department officials like Richard Armitage would go and try to meet with foreign leaders in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, they would try to talk to him about the complexity and the history of the place. And he said, there's a quote in one, and I think the book or something I read today that he said, history starts today. You know, like we just refuse to hear context. History always starts today. Every new day is the beginning of history.

So Tommy, we talk a lot about Trump's grip on the party. What did you make of the boos he got for talking positively about the vaccines? I mean, I just think that if you go to a Trump rally, you're there to hear the greatest hits of the culture war. You don't want him to play the new stuff. You don't want the new stuff. You want the fake news media. You want the libs to get owned. you want the fake news media, you want the libs get owned. And unfortunately, masks and vaccines, I think, have gotten folded into that construct. And they would rather tell people who nag them

about COVID to shut up than to protect themselves. And, you know, look, I understand it. Look at Ron DeSantis. Like, it's depressing. It didn't have to be this way. But it's basically driving all the conversation around Ron DeSantis' presidential ambitions. So clearly, it's depressing. It didn't have to be this way, but it's basically driving all the conversation around Ron DeSantis' presidential ambitions. So clearly it's working for them. And I found myself both being happy he mentioned it because the bar is so low for Trump. I was like, oh, wow, he told them to get vaccinated. I guess that's good. But then I really thought about how much he could help if he made a concerted messaging effort, if he did PSAs, if he went on Fox News and pitched them on a conversation about the vaccine. if he did PSAs, if he went on Fox News and pitched them on a conversation about the vaccine. He doesn't want to, right? He wants to talk about

the election fraud that didn't happen. And he wants Biden to get blamed for people dying. I mean, I think it's that cynical. What did you make of that? Well, one, so I've been at Trump rallies and when I heard the boos, I was like, was it a real boo or a funny, funny, ha ha boo? I don't think anyone that goes to a Trump rally is actually going there to ever really boo him. And so it was a metaphorical boo. Metaphorical boo. I think, yeah. I think that Republican politicians, including Trump, can no longer control the extremism that they fuel. That is what I thought here. They're riding the tiger. It doesn't matter what Trump says about the vaccine now.

It's too late. It reminded me of some TikTok of the January 6th attack from the perspective of people inside the White House. And a lot of people said that Trump was surprised that this happened. And I actually believe that. Like, I don't think it absolves him of anything. that this happened. And I actually believe that. Like, I don't think it absolves him of anything, but you can tell that he is sort of confused about this very radical movement that he created. And I think a lot of Republican politicians are that way, but they're like, you know what?

We're going to win because we want power and that's all we really care about. So if they don't believe in vaccines because Tucker Carlson was telling them that or any of the misinformation is still there. Let's do it. What I wonder is like the best way to respond to people across the country who are still really anti-vax. You know, I have people close to me who are not Republicans who are anti-vax. Me too. And it's like, how do you talk to them?

Because laughing at them is not going to work. Shaming them is not going to work. laughing at them is not going to work. Shaming them is not going to work. And as good as it feels to see the marjories and be like, you're crazy. What is the way to talk to all of the country that gets them to just get the shot? I don't know what it is yet. And I don't know who they would trust. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think first of all, the group is not monolithic as you point out. Right. So there's some who are unreachable, I think. Yeah. I think there is another segment of people who, you know, they've said that doctors are really helpful, right?

Like talking to your own doctor can convince people, family and friends who've got the vaccine, that can be helpful as well. So I do think it's more of on a, it's on a person to person sort of local level. Certainly, I don't think like Joe Biden saying again, everyone go get the vaccine or even Donald Trump for some Republicans is going to work. Although Olivia Rodrigo. Olivia Rodrigo is of course the exception. I was like, Olivia, I go get the vaccine or even Donald Trump for some Republicans. Although Olivia Rodrigo.

Olivia Rodrigo is of course the exception. I was like, Olivia, I'll get a third dose. I would. It's fine. She is our queen. We'll do what she says. I do. I really, really hate it when people almost gleefully retweet stories about anti-vax personalities

who then got it and died. Oh, yeah. It's not helping. It's disgusting i do wonder if you could do a series of interviews ads public service uh psas with individuals who like you know like in a campaign when you have people who switch votes say like i was anti-vaccine i refused to take it i thought it was blah blah i've been wondered about this for so long but then i got sick yeah i wish i you know and it's like i i would make that my campaign yeah see the human cost of of getting sick yeah yeah the sort of sneering about the people who've

died and the stories about that i i don't love they died and i have to say like yeah it's wild dead people you can sneer at them like charlie warzel wrote some piece about this or tweeted some piece about this sorry about sort of this from a doctor about how he doesn't like people sort of sneering, you know, at people who've died of this. And like, I retweeted it. And I got someone on Twitter who was like, oh, I liked it, right? And someone on Twitter was like,

why did you like this piece? Wow. I'm like, why did I like this piece? Because I agree with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you're policing what I liked because you want me to cheer the people who, what are you talking about?

Yeah. And then there's this other echo chamber of extremely liberal, woke Twitter that just only wants to be totally alarmist about everything every day. I'm so concerned. We're all going to die. It's all ending. And, like, that is not helpful either. I agree. I think there is –

And I get the – look, I get the fear and anxiety. I have it too. But there's a certain portion of Twitter specifically that wants to live in that anxiety all day. And that is not helping them and it's not helping other folks and it's not helping us get vaccinated. Like that's...

Don't lead with that. I will say that because I am one of those anxious people about the pandemic in general, like I check LA Public Health every day. I check where the numbers come out. If you ever want to see this, look at some of the replies to the numbers because when there's like an increase in general, like I check LA Public Health every day. I check where the numbers come out. If you ever want to see this, look at some of the replies to the numbers, because when there's like an increase in cases, there are some people who reply, I knew it. Shut it all down again. It's

bad. This is terrible. And I'm like, why are you all why are you all replying this? Are you putting this out into the public? What's that going to help? And it's people who at this point know the science who are doing a certain performative level of maskness and vaccine-ness and pandemic-ness that is more meant to help them get their liberal gold star for the day than actually be an asset to public health and the greater good. Yeah. And that's what I'm tired of. And it's just a question of like, is what you're saying here or the tweet you're putting out, is it sort of, is it going to help? Is it helpful or is it hurtful? Is it going to help end the pandemic?

Is it going to help more people get vaccinated? Is it going to help more people take precautions? Or is it not? Or is it just for you? We're asking tweeters to think before they tweet. Yeah, which I know. I've not followed that myself always. I have not either.

People in glass houses. in glass houses. So that New York Times story about Democratic anxiety that we were just discussing said that Democratic leaders believe the midterms quote will be fought over a pandemic version of kitchen table issues, public health, school openings and household economics. Do you think, Sam, that's how Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Matt Gaetz and Trump see the election? It's going to matter less how they see it and what it actually is. I'm always surprised how every election cycle, one of the top issues is health insurance, whether we're talking about it or not. People care about their health insurance, right? And so there's going to be some basic bread and butter things that will be important for voters, regardless of what people say. And as we mentioned earlier, something new

will pop up. There'll be some new critical race theory that happens before next October that also takes the attention. So yeah, it's hard to say is what I'm saying. Tommy, from like a Democratic strategist point of view, how much do you think Democrats should make this election about a pandemic version of kitchen table issues versus the extremism of the Republican Party? I think I would recommend that they make it about the kitchen table issues and the thing Joe Biden has done for regular people. I get a little nervous when I see some of the messaging around

the California recall, which we're going to talk about in a minute. It is like overly focused on offensive things. Larry Elder said in the past, I just feel like we just tried that with Trump and that maybe we should try something new. That said, you know, like to your point about how we're complicit or not, or we ignore things or we don't. I mean, last night in Portland, there was a big proud boys rally where they mostly looked pathetic. But at the end of it, a guy took out a gun and started shooting at a bunch of Antifa members. And so there are these like real strains of violence and extremism happening. And the Proud Boys are part of the MAGA base, right? I mean, they made up most of the, not most of, but a lot of the January 6th crowd that went into the Capitol.

And so like we can't pretend those things aren't happening. I just think like the Republicans are going to run one election, which is going to be all about motivating the most hardcore people. And I think that if we're going to get out a broader coalition, it can't just be fear of them. It's going to have to be something else. Well, and will Democrats coalesce around themselves by the midterms? There's potential for more moderate folks in the House and Senate to have a totally different track of messaging than what perhaps Pelosi and Schumer want them to have. We don't know yet, right? I mean, is there any way to predict the cohesiveness of the bond of this party? Well, to that point-

Today doesn't look good. No, I was going to say, no, but to that point, I think one thing that will unite Democrats, which united them in 2018 and 2020, is here's what will happen if Republicans take power. And so I do look, I think comparing every Republican and say, oh, this is a Trump clone. I don't know if that necessarily works because I don't know if it's always believable. Some Republicans will run away from Trump. I'll try to present themselves as different than Trump. Right. But I think talking about I think talking about kitchen table issues is, of course, important. That's what the polls will tell you. That's what people care about. Like you said, people care about their health insurance. They care about their jobs. They care about their family's future. Have to talk about that. I also think that there's going to be a certain kind of voter, perhaps that swing voter that tunes in and out of the election, you know, periodically that says, OK, I generally like what Joe Biden and the Democrats have done. I'm not thrilled with everything, but those Republicans take power.

They're really going to fuck everything up in a pretty big way and maybe a dangerous way. And I think you have to have that part of the equation in your message or else you might not turn out the people that you need to turn out. And you just, you have to frame the choice for people. And some of that might just be playing the tape. You know, I mean, some of the most effective messaging for them might be just playing Marjorie next fall. Yeah. The devil's advocate to that argument is I do think it's going to be about delivering more than almost anything else, because I do think if Democrats like we literally have a text

chain with a bunch of former political nerds where we all should do. We all laugh every time a candidate says, I'm going to create tax breaks for companies that move jobs here and not overseas. It's like a democratic talking point that has existed since the Clinton administration that we try it out every year and we never deliver on. And I think for Biden, I think it has to be beyond just delivering on the bipartisan infrastructure bill because the odds of that being really felt in people's lives seems low by the midterms. But if they can deliver on this much bigger bill that they want to do afterwards, it includes climate change, it includes home health care, like all these other things that really matter to people that they'll feel right away, that I think will go a long ways.

Yeah, look, I still think the most important factor is what is the state of the pandemic? What is the state of the economy? And so for Democrats, the choice is how do you influence those two things, right? Well, you support policies that help end the pandemic and improve the economy, like the Biden economic agenda. Then you make sure that voters know you supported those policies that will help end the pandemic and improve the economy. And then you let people know what Republicans will do if they take power, right? I mean, this is the classic choice. You know, the challenger wants to make it a referendum and the Republicans are the challenger and the incumbent wants to turn it into a choice between two visions, which is what the Democrats are going to want to do in

the midterms. Yeah. Didn't Trump, when that first round of COVID checks went out, didn't he sign the check? Yeah, he did. Yeah. Democrats need to do some version of that. It was not quite. I know. No, you really. And sign the check. Right. And it's and it's so much more than just like, you know, and it's great to see some, you know, Biden allied organizations out there running a bunch of ads about this. And they're doing it early, which is which is new. Right. We didn't do that in 2010 before we got smoked in those midterms. But we need a lot of it needs to be sort of on the ground, organizing, talking to people face to face. Like you really need to drill the message home because as we have seen just from the last couple of weeks,

it's hard to break through the normal news cycle with accomplishments like, do you know that the child tax credit reduced poverty among children by 50%? Like that headline's not getting far. Well, and then I think there's a larger strategy question for Democrat and it involves Stacey Abrams directly. There's a question of whether Democrats can win midterms by convincing those weird, elusive, moderate swing white voters or if they can regalvanize all of these new types of voters.

Well, they're not new, but they haven't voted before that the Stacey's of the world were mobilizing. And I don't know if those conversations are happening yet. And I think the expectation is you're never going to get that kind of turnout in a midterm. But who knows? And you don't know till you try. You should try. I think the answer to that is they have to do both. Yeah. Which is the real challenge. Which they don't do well. No, because again, because it's two different messages as well. Yeah. Well, in 2020, the coalition stretched from the AOCs of the world and the and the voters who never turned out in an election So it really isn't, I think it's not a choice. You have to fire up the base and all, a lot of those voters who voted for the first time in 18 and 20, and you have to win over some of these,

some of these moderates and swing districts. And that is not an easy task. Joe, call Stacey. Call her. Yeah, a whole bunch of Stacey Abrams in a whole bunch of states. That's what we need. All right. Speaking of elections, let's end with a game. As you hopefully know by now, radical Republican activists here in California have forced the state to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on an election to decide whether Gavin Newsom should be recalled as governor. on an election to decide whether Gavin Newsom should be recalled as governor.

You can vote in person on September 14th or return your ballot any time before then. They were mailed out last week. This means we now have the final list of yahoos and goobers vying to replace Newsom, which means we can play a game called Do You Recall, where I'll read the name and bio of a candidate. This is the name and bio that are on the official California voter guide. and you tell me if you think that the name and bio are real or fake okay I'm gonna lose this game no is this okay here we go a person with the most correct guesses wins how many questions are there let's see you know what

they're lettered so now I can't I can't I think there's like 10 of these anyway all right can you say before we, I've gotten more worried about this recall election every week for months now. I just hope listeners are taking this really seriously because I think Gavin Newsom might be in more trouble than people realize. Or at least the way this election is structured, he could not only lose,

but we could elect an actual crazy person. Because if the recall is approved, the winner just has to get a plurality. Right. And so that person in a field of however many candidates could get like 10% of the vote and become governor. Absolutely. Gavin could get 49% of the state saying,

no, don't recall him, but get recalled. And then it could go to the second question and like a Larry Elder could get 20% and he is the governor, not the guy. But let me stop here and say no love lost for Gavin. I think that guy, I think my guy, I can't even. I see. I'm just like, oh, you.

I think a lot of voters feel that way. And I think that's a fair way to feel. If you're not motivated, that's OK. But I think, you know, just know what the alternative is if you decide to sit it out. Yeah. And it's not about people and personalities here, right? A little bit of it is about me. Well, no. I'm sure

that's how people are feeling, right? What I'm saying is think to yourself, do I want to live in a state with a governor who wants to repeal the minimum wage, who wants to repeal environmental protections, who wants to put choice back on the table, right? You can feel how you want to feel about Gavin Newsom, no problem. But if he's recalled, that's what we're going to get.

And Dianne Feinstein is really old. And the governor will choose her replacement. So just- Should something happen. Marinate on that. Just saying. We need the Senate. All right, Tommy, number one, the name is Angeline and the bio is Angeline Billboard Queen, icon, experienced politician, real or fake?

Real. That is real. Wow. That is real. Did you read the list? No. I didn't know homework for this. I started, and then I was like, I can't.

That's a long ass list. It's a long ass list. I voted. Okay. That's it. Sam, the next one is, the name is Jeremiah Jeremy Marciniak. And the bio is search YouTube. Real. Real.

Because whenever you say search YouTube, that's actually legit. I believe that. That's like having a viral tweet and then dropping your SoundCloud in the next one. That's exactly what he did. Patreon. That's genius. Tommy, number three. Jerry Brown.

Bio. Yes. Again. Real? Fake. Oh. What a dumb guess. I should have known that.

Because otherwise we'd all be coalescing around Jerry. It could have been another Jerry Brown who was like, I have the same name. Let me jump in the recall. I don't think that's crazy. And again, this sort of hypothetical speaks to a controversy, which is the Gavin people are saying vote no on question one, then leave question two blank. And a lot of Democrats are like, no. Also, if your quick short message has two steps,

is one step too many? It's just hard to message this. Do this, but then that. I think that's partly why they just want to say vote no, vote no, vote no, and don't ask me about the second question. It's like, doesn't matter. If you guys disagree with them, do you. And that is true, by the way. It really, if you vote no, it really doesn't

matter that i mean there's going to be no at this point there's no organized effort behind an alternative democrat so a bunch of people writing in different things is not going to do it yeah um all right next one sam um mike rounds and the bio is my pullout game is strong now let's pull out of the u.s and finally secede from the Union. Please let that be fake. It is fake. Oh my God. Wow. Look, I didn't write these. Okay. Next one. Tommy. The name is

Daniel Mercury. The bio is, as a patriot, I will fight to starve the government and feed the people. So real. So real. That person is on the ballot. That guy was at January 6th. He was storming the Capitol with a hat on. Sam, this is an interesting one. The name is Felicity Huffman,

and the bio is reforming our school systems so every child has a fair shot. The audacity is fake. Although I would listen to her stump speech. I'm interested. Yeah, let's hear it. Let's hear her out. Tommy, next one.

Name. Dan Kaplowitz. Bio. Can you dig it? Short, sweet. I can dig it. Yes, real. It's real.

It's real. Sam. Mikayla Laughlin. In the bio. I believe you have the right to choose not to get vaccinated. Let's throw away our shot. Oh my God. to get vaccinated. Let's throw away our shot. Oh my god. You had me

tell let's throw away our shot. No one's going to say that. I'm worried about that. Tommy, the name is Tony Rossi and the bio is, replace the Cuomo brothers with the Mario brothers. That's fake. Anti-Italian slander. Yeah how dare you sir yeah what did what did

cuomo chris cuomo get really mad at being called uh i can't remember now uh fuck it's the uh fredo yeah the brother from thank you elijah save from the uh elijah knows all your trivia right there all right last one sam nicholas Wildstar is the name in the bio. Our nation was founded on liberty, but now it's considered a wild idea. That's why I'm asking you to go wild and elect Wildstar for governor. Real. That is real. Wow.

Okay. Just some real interesting people on this ballot. Who won? I think Sam won. Flavia tells us that Sam won. Vote for something, America. But we do have a bonus round. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I wasn't told. Iavia tells us that Sam won. Vote for something, America. But we do have a bonus round. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I wasn't told. I win. It's over. It's done. This is, yeah, we're just doing this on the fly. The current Republican frontrunner is a right-wing radio host named Larry Elder, a believer in the big lie who wants to get rid of the minimum wage, environmental protections, and all vaccine and mask requirements. I'm going to read a list of facts about Elder. You tell me if they're real or made up.

Sam, we'll start with you. He is called diversity a form of liberal fascism. Yes, he has. That is correct. Tommy, he once argued on Fox that black families were better off as slaves. Oh, my God. Is that real? That is correct.

That is real. Okay. We should point out here that he's black. He is black. That is correct. Sam, he hosts a talk show in his bathrobe called Robe Rage

please be real that is real that is real Robe Rage I just want you guys I'm into it I just want you guys to know when the team sent this game over

they did not give me all the correct answers and so I said well I assume that the Robe Rage one is wrong right and Olivia was like no no that is absolutely real that's almost as bad as correct answers and so I said well I assume that the robe rage one is wrong right and there and Olivia was like no no that is absolutely that's almost as bad as didn't the almost jeopardy guy

have a podcast called what was it called oh yeah random but it was spelled d-u-m-b come on bro amazing he didn't uh yeah shoot from the job that unraveling has been that's been exciting I called on day one. Did you? I was like, this shall not stand. You don't mess with LeVar. You don't mess with LeVar. How great was LeVar Burton

the day that he got fired and LeVar Burton just said, hey everyone? He just tweeted, hey everyone. He's a class act. I'm not going to lie. I love LeVar.

One selfie I posted from the White House was me with LeVar Burton. I believe it. It's on my Instagram somewhere. I forgot that. He was so nice. He's such a good guy.

He's the warmest human. Yeah. All right, Tommy. Elder believes employers should be able to discriminate against pregnant employees. Fact. That is fact.

And last one, Sam. He repeatedly demanded an ex-girlfriend get the phrase Larry's girl tattooed on her. That's so real. It's so real.

They were all real. This guy. They were all real. That's the game. Oh, that was the game? That was the game, yeah. So again, if you don't like Gavin, that's your alternative. Yeah.

He's the frontrunner. And just to remind people, you can vote by mail right now. You even had a ballot mailed to your house if you are a registered voter. You can also vote in person on the September 14th election day. And again, there are only two questions. Should Gavin Newsom be recalled? Yes or no? And which candidate should replace him? Of course, as we said, the Newsom campaign says leave it blank, but you can do whatever you want. Make sure you and your friends are prepared

to vote in the recall. Visit votesaveamerica.com to check your voter registration and make sure you're good to go. Sam Sanders, thank you for joining us today. This was really fun. This was really fun. This was my first in studio in over a year, and I'm honored to have spent this time with you two. Such a pleasure. You are welcome here anytime. Thank you for joining us today. This was really fun. This was really fun. This was my first in-studio in over a year, and I'm honored to have spent this time with you two. Such a pleasure. Really fun. Well, you are welcome here anytime. Thank you. I'll come back.

Please move in. We can give you an office space. We doubled our rent before the pandemic and then didn't go into it for a year and a half. But are dogs allowed? Yes. Yeah, dogs are allowed. All right.

Mine has gas. That's okay. That's fine. So does John. John loved it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Bye's okay. That's fine. So does John. John Lovett. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Bye, everyone.

Bye. Podsave America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas. Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,

Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, Yale Freed, and Narmel Konian, who film and share our episodes as videos every week.