Pod Save America - “The perpetual bullshit machine.”

Episode Date: December 18, 2017

Trump and his state-run media conspire to undermine a federal investigation, Republicans in Congress enrich themselves with their tax plan, and Democrats have to decide what they’re willing to fight for. Then Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams joins Jon, Jon, and Tommy to talk about the new political reality of the South, and activist Ady Barkan talks about his plane encounter with Senator Jeff Flake. 

Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. On the pod today, the woman who may become America's first female African American governor, Representative Stacey Abrams from Georgia. We'll also be talking to healthcare activist Adi Barkin, famous for confronting Jeff Flake on a plane. And us, when we recorded the interview. Yeah, it's a great interview. Sick and tired of these

mother-effing Flakes on a plane. That's right. Nice. Promotion of your pods. Who wants to go first? Love it or leave it, this week was a real holiday extravaganza. It was our holiday spectacular. We're saying Merry Christmas again.

I was joined by such luminaries as Jon Favreau and Tommy Vitor. Did your rant about how there's always a crappy menorah and a gigantic Christmas tree make it? Okay, good. I left it in. That was funny. We also had Alice Barker, who's a trans activist, Cara Brown, Colton Dunn. Ira Madison came on to talk about Keep It and was one of my favorite okay stops of the year. Tim Miller did a Cuck Zone.

That was a delight. We played my favorite game that we've ever played on Love It or Leave It. It was a one of my favorite okay stops of the year. Tim Miller did a Cuck Zone. That was a delight. We played my favorite game that we've ever played on Love It or Leave It. It was a cast of thousands. It was a revolving door. Ensemble. It was the pre-Cricket Holiday Party show. Yeah, everybody from Cricket was there. It was one of my favorite shows that we've ever done and we went out

right. With a bang. Tommy, what about what's happening in Pod save the world all kinds of stuff john the current episode that's up is a conversation with a man named tamar alnori who was went under that's not his real name that's his alias when he went undercover with the fbi to infiltrate an al-qaeda cell that was plotting attacks in u.s in the u.s and canada it was a damn cool interview i've never interviewed someone who was undercover with a pseudonym before. It was pretty neat.

We had to mess with his voice to disguise it because he's still in the Bureau trying to disrupt plots to this day. So check it out. You'll not regret it. This is just a lot of cool storytelling and trying to get a sense of what it's like to work in those jobs.

Tommy, I think this was one of my very favorite episodes you've ever done. Thank you for tweeting that, John. I think it was the the best one i listened to it while i did my christmas shopping which was you know very cool it's like a little fbi informant undercover christmas shopping hey yeah you're like well you're eyeing the guy brookstone a little differently i uh i walked around target last night at 10 p.m in a total panic trying to find a gift for our office yankee swap and i uh i was just looking around being like i don't know target yeah i went to target where else would you go tarjay

what a great place to go to buy you know don't go to the grove that's what i did and i failed me too failed i also think don't you think setting a 15 dollar i feel like 20 should have been the number we're 15 15 we should have said a 20 bill or less degrees mine was 20 i don't know what you guys are doing okay what oh cheater you're like michael scott i got he got an ipod i waited for today to throw that grenade you did into the pod i was gonna say it last night are you it might have been 1699 i don't know i didn't pay attention suddenly you're supposed to pay attention okay unbelievable their rules also on pod Save the People this week, because we're not speaking to DeRay today because we have too many guests, DeRay talks to Chelsea Handler about her shift to activism, to Cornell

Belcher, an Obama pollster on Alabama and what it means for the future of the African-American vote, and Mike Johnson, who's a Democratic candidate for Colorado governor. I thought- What an array of people from DeRay. I thought Cornell Belcher was just a guy that wins eating contests in Ithaca. candidate for colorado governor i thought uh what an array of people from direct i thought cornell belcher was just a guy that wins uh eating contest in ithaca he was a guest on pod safe america many months ago one of uh one of our you know finest pollsters on the obama campaign

cool that's where uh you get it muft cringing. I think she actually tuned that out. Smart. She's smart. Plenty of tickets left in some places for our tour. Cricket.com slash events. Go get them. We should talk about the pod schedule for the next week. I got to tell you, we're going to do a lot of housekeeping today. We have to do this.

Keeping house. Because we're doing the pod today, Monday. Dan and I will have a pod on the 21st, Thursday. Per usual. And then on Christmas Day, you will have no pod. On the 26th, you will wake up to an evergreen pod from the three of us taking questions, doing a little mailbag. We're going to do that later today.

I feel like evergreen is an internal facing word. Now it's external. It's evergreen. It works. People get it. They get the connotation. It's evergreen. It works. People get it. They get the connotation. It's a classic. And we're also going to have a look back at the whole year pod.

It's a special that we'll have sometime around New Year's. And we'll let you know exactly when that date is. Guys, if you could know the journey that led to that exact phrasing, you would be amazed. It's very finely tuned over time. I don't know if you know this but donald trump says that honestly robert muller is going to be giving him a uh certificate like a diploma that says uh congrats no crimes president of the month greatest press let's start with the federal investigation into the president and his associates despite the fact that this investigation has already led to

two guilty pleas and two indictments of senior Trump advisors, it is being actively undermined by the Trump administration, Trump supporting congressmen, and the Trump state-run media. Two examples of this. We haven't talked about this yet, guys, actually. We haven't talked about the text messages on this pod. Last week, the Department of Justice decided to leak the private text messages of an FBI agent that Mueller fired months ago, which revealed that the FBI agent is like the

other 65% of Americans who dislike Donald Trump. And now a bunch of Republican congressmen are demanding that Mueller fire anyone who doesn't like Donald Trump in the FBI. I guess that's a thing we're doing now. John Cornyn, what a hero. Coming out with that statement.

And then we have over the other examples over the weekend one of trump's lawyers also accused muller's team of unlawful conduct and a violation of the fourth amendment for obtaining government emails that were sent by trump's team during the presidential transition fox news reacted like any serious journalistic institution would and allowed their anchors to accuse muller and the fbi of staging a coup against america and called for the arrest of several fbi agents what do we think about this guys so just taking it one piece at a time so i think the john cornyn tweet about this is instructive he said that the investigation was clean house of partisans and he said this like it was like a matter of fact like the obvious conclusion you would draw yeah it's an extraordinary statement like okay so no democrats or republicans can work at the fbi now is it just going to be what

wiccans and the ignorant like what ludicrous it's a ludicrous it's great you are allowed to have it's the united states of america you're very much allowed to have political views in any job you hold. The question is not, do you hold political views? It's, do you allow those political views to influence your work as an FBI agent? So far, the evidence of that is zero. Zero. And we count on the professionalism of the FBI. The idea that like, oh yeah, the FBI has been overrun by liberals.

That's the real problem we have. I would be willing to bet all the money to my name that the FBI is overwhelmingly a Republican organization. I would also want to point out that before the campaign, there was a news report where a currently serving FBI agent said Hillary Clinton is the antichrist personified to a large swath of FBI personnel. That's the reason they're leaking. They called the bureau Trumplandia. So these quotes, these articles at the time didn't seem to bother John Cornyn or anybody else because this is what you do when you're worried about the results of an investigation is you attack the process.

I would also point out that there were highly partisan, politically charged investigations of Benghazi, of Fast and Furious, of about everything else during the Obama years. I realize those are distinct from the FBI, which is a law enforcement agency. But this new religion on not allowing anyone with partisan views to be associated with investigation is as stupid as it sounds. And everyone should dismiss it. It's an attempt to create a conversation about this and not the fact that we're indicting people left and right.

And there's obvious evidence of collusion, likeald trump jr being like yo wanna collude later set up the russian meeting xoxo donny jay yeah let's do crimes let's do some crime none of this changes the fact that mike flynn lied to the fucking fbi which is a felony none of it changes the fact that george papadopoulos lied to the fbi a felony. None of it changed that Paul Manafort and fucking Gates are charged with whatever they're charged with. Everything. Literally. What didn't those guys? Everything.

We've decided to introduce the charge of everything. The rare charge. We have four fucking charges right now. It doesn't matter how many text messages there are about how much people hate donald trump those charges are real they admit it they pled guilty i'm guilty that's what that's what mike flynn said i am guilty of the crime that you have charged me of you cannot fuck you people you cannot say this is a whole lot of nothing after indictments have been handed down right like that's the that's the rules the boat you

missed the boat like i was supposed to you're supposed to undermine the investigation before it brings charges there is a four-step process to what is happening step one is the fox news info wars breitbart donald trump bullshit machine yeah and that thing turns on the loop and that thing turns on brian stelter wrote about this yeah it's very good um it's a perpetual bullshit machine and it spins up and it's about it's biased it's overreached it's overrun with democrats it's democrats persecuting donald trump it's it's just the nonsense it's jesse waters uh who the fact that he is functional who used to be bill o'reilly's coffee boy He was his comic relief until he ran around Chinatown and made a bunch of racist comments. Then he got his own show.

They promoted him. So Jesse Waters is going to call it a coup. So that's step one. Step two is people like Hugh Hewitt launder it into a respectable argument. Right. Like I would never say coup, but. But there should be a special prosecutor

to look at the special prosecutor. This whole thing also plays into the mainstream press's fear of anything being biased. Nothing must be biased. Right. So step two. So there's any bias anywhere. It's a, you know. So step two is the respectability machine of conservatives like Hugh Hewitt, who take

the information that the crazies are saying and find a way to make it true enough. Here's how you can take a totally fabricated argument and say, well, actually, this is something real Republicans are concerned about as well. Then step three, Republicans like Cornyn and people in the House

and the Senate can jump on board because Hugh Hewitt has given them the kind of sluice way for which the bullshit can pour down and actually kind of land

somewhere useful to them. And then finally, step four, the media covers it and they cover it by saying, look at what these senators are saying, look at this respectable actually kind of land somewhere useful to them. And then finally, step four, the media covers it. And they cover it by saying, look at what these senators are saying. Look at this respectable conservative, what they're saying. And they never have to touch the fact that Jesse Waters called for a coup. They never have to touch what Fox and Friends did. A great example of how they do this is this email thing over the weekend. First of all, we were all on a presidential transition.

Like we all knew they were government emails we didn't think these were emails that wouldn't come out if someone needed them to in an investigation give us back our emails where we admit to crimes it's unfair you took our crime emails no one was babies whining about no one was sending around emails with ptt on them which is presidential transition team that was like no one's sending them around thinking like, these are my personal emails. Safe. It's an email you get for a month and a half to start a government. It's not a place to do chit chat.

It's insane. It's certainly not a place to do crimes. Yeah. Use your Gmail for that, guys. So Mueller's office, usually when these headlines go around, says no comment, no comment, because they're all a bunch of badasses and they just say no comment. This time, Mueller's spokesperson responded, when we have obtained emails in the course of our ongoing

criminal investigation, we have secured either the account owner's consent or the appropriate criminal process. Two criminals in the statement, which is pretty awesome. Also, we found out that Trump's lawyer who released the statement, he never contacted Mueller. He never contacted the special counsel's office.

He never went to court over this. He just did it. He released it publicly and sent it to Congress because he wanted the headlines. And guess what? Mission accomplished. He got all the headlines he fucking wanted. Yeah. Way to dive into that one, guys.

I mean, everyone just remember that Bob Mueller is a Republican who was universally praised at the FBI and praised when he was named. The special counsel, Bob Mueller, was named by Trump's deputy attorney general, who still maintains that there's no reason for him to be fired. And also just some backstory, news about Hillary was leaked out of the FBI constantly, including to Rudy Giuliani, who went on TV to brag about it. So the notion that like, all these investigations are totally airtight, and this is somehow not just standard operating procedure is bullshit. I mean, these guys are so unsubtle. Like this rep, Matt Geitz, who has been calling on Mueller to be fired.

The dude was on Air Force One last Friday and wrote the Pensacola with Team Trump. Like they are cooking this in the most obvious, blatant, pathetic way and working their way up to Trump saying he has to go. And we all need to call it for what it is, which is unmitigated bullshit. So Axios this morning wrote this up and I thought it spoke to why what they're doing has been is effective, at least in what it's trying to do for conservatives. It's this is what they said. The rising conservative drumbeat to discredit the investigation and the investigators is gaining GOP converts a source close to the white house

said you're starting to win over mainstream conservatives to the backlash over overreach that is fundamentally not what's going on yeah what's going on is this is succeeding in letting republicans know that pretending they believe there's overreach is something they could get away with that's right it's not so it's it's not on the level. It's not winning them over. Oh, I was on the fence and then you really got me. I believe Mueller. Fuck off. Right, like,

they don't, John Cornyn did not wake up this morning and be like, you know what? I think, I've looked at all the available evidence. I think Mueller's gone too far

and it pains me to say it because he's a Republican and I want to see the rule of law preserved and I want him to do his job but I have no choice but to speak my mind. No, what's going on is

the bullshit thing, the sluice way I referred to earlier. Do you guys know what a sluice way is? I just can't believe we have had it twice now. I don't even remember what it is. I think it's something involving farming and I think something water can go down it, go down a sluice.

I believe that's right. Anywho, it's been effective at making John Cornyn think there's something new that he can get away with. Trump says he has no plans to fire Mueller. He said it again last night. Well, his word is bond. His word is bond. Good.

Yeah, I was going to say, do we believe him? But bigger question, does Trump need to fire Mueller to achieve what he's trying to achieve? Wouldn't he have to demand that hot Rod Rosenstein fire him? And then if hot Rod wouldn't do it, then it goes to the next person. I mean, we're talking. Rowdy Rod Rosenstein? Rowdy Rod would have to be complicit in this he had yeah he'd have to maybe he'd probably have to fire sessions and then uh put in a new attorney general who didn't have to accuse himself the new attorney general would then fire rod and then fire and then fire the special and he's bitching about both rod and sessions constantly he calls He calls the Attorney General weak, according to the Washington Post.

He calls Hot Rod a Democrat, even though he is a Bush appointee Republican. And he's really upset with the new FBI director that he picked after he fired the old FBI director because the old FBI director wouldn't stop the investigation into his crimes. If I were advising Donald Trump... This is so crazy. we live in a fucking slide antidepressants into it that's what i would do well so so one thing i would do is i would sneak uh caffeine-free diet coke after 6 p.m that's a no-brainer that needs to start happening kelly i'm like honestly want to call the white house and tell them that but also if i were so if i

were advising trump i'd say hey crime boss, here's what I think. I'd say two options here to discredit Mueller, to get Mueller off your back. You can do what you need to do to fire him, which I think would be an extraordinary breach and would draw a lot of attention. And hey, Donald Trump, you remember Comey. At least your declining brain can seem to retain that information. That didn't go well. your declining brain can seem to retain that information. That didn't go well. I would say discredit him so that let the indictments come, let him take out some people.

Eventually this will lead to some sort of report, and then you can just take that report and put it in a drawer and close the drawer and pretend it never happened. Yeah, I think what the Republicans bet is here is that they're not going to find actual crimes of collusion, whatever that means, particularly because there's such an ill-defined thing, find actual crimes of collusion, whatever that means, particularly because there's such an ill-defined thing, what a crime of collusion is,

and that what they may get is if they get an obstruction of justice charge for Trump or that he was conspiring to obstruct justice, whatever it may be, or they get some other process crimes, what they can then say is, this was not collusion. This investigation was a witch hunt from the start,

a partisan witch hunt. We have all this evidence. And so who cares about this? It was, you know, it was poison from the start. That's what they're hoping. So then they don't need to fire Mueller. Right. There's like a big, like maybe there's a big report.

We don't know what Mueller is going to actually finally produce. But presumably if it's not, if it doesn't end in Mueller saying, here's my indictment of Donald Trump, which seems like a crazy outlandish thing. If it's kind of a report a star-like report their goal is to kind of have say they don't need to follow it they can they can say it was partisan they could say it was overreach they can muddy the water to just move on you can move on formed on the democratic side to say censure and move on and maybe that's something you know we don't know where they're

going to land but undermining the investigation as a way to get away from its conclusions. While House Republicans do their dirty work and they shut down the House Intelligence Committee investigation into Russian interference, and while Trump's aides, including our intelligence community, structure his briefings, structure the PDB, structure all conversations about foreign policy and national security so as not to offend him. So you don't have cabinet level national security meetings about russian interference in our election because god forbid we actually take it seriously and try to prevent it from happening again when all uh signs show that putin thinks this was the most successful info op in the history of this fucking country meanwhile we learned just before we started

recording the pod today that the fbi alerted the trump campaign in July of 2016 that Russians were trying to infiltrate their campaign. Apparently that message didn't take because then Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort took a meeting with the Russians who promised dirt on Hillary Clinton in September. Donald Trump, you know what's funny? They came to warn him,

but he just thought it was a briefing on campaign strategy. Boris Epstein? Yeah. Well, i think what people have to do is i mean again for reporters for people who are covering this people who are watching this pay attention to the actual evidence and the indictments that come out of the investigation and cover the story for what it is which is a conspiracy among trump and the republican defenders of trump to undermine an investigation into the president and into Russian interference in our election. That's what this is. I'm hopeful, though, that as we continue to win elections, as Trump's approval rating

continues to plummet, I do think increasingly it will be seen that carrying water for Trump on things where you just the facts are not on your side is not a good political strategy. I just like I don't know why you put yourself on a limb, unless you're a shameless hack like John Cornyn or these House Republicans in these gerrymandered districts. If you're somewhat reasonable, even if you're Lindsey Graham's newfound best golf buddy, I don't know that you want to own this one.

Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about Congress and the thing they do. They do want to just grab and run with, which is the tax bill. They're all for that. Republicans have until Friday to pass the Donor Relief Act of 2017 and avoid a government shutdown. We'll start with taxes. All 52 Senate Republicans have now said they'll vote for this bill, even though the bill does things that many of them said they'd vote no over. does things that many of them said they'd vote no over. Collins said the bill shouldn't touch health care or cut the top tax rate, which it does. But Mitch McConnell made her a bunch of promises on health care that he can't keep, and so she voted yes. Bob Corker said he wouldn't vote for the bill

if it increased the deficit by a dime, which it does. Well, it actually doesn't increase it by a dime. It increases it by $1.5 trillion. Literally true. But Bob Corker switched to yes on Friday. Why? Why, John? Why did he do that?

Well, David Sirota reported that there was a secret provision added during the conference committee that gave a lucrative tax deduction to businesses known as pass-through LLCs, even if they have no employees, which is designed to help real estate moguls like Bob Corker and Donald Trump. Now, Corker claims he wasn't aware of the provision because he didn't read the bill. How can I know this benefited me? I didn't even read this bill that I just said I wanted to vote for after I said I wasn't going to vote for it. He wrote a letter to Orrin Hatch asking him what's going on.

Orrin Hatch's defense is, no, no, no, this special provision was in the bill the whole time. I guess just none of us knew. no, this special provision was in the bill the whole time. I guess just none of us knew. So no one is disputing the fact that this would be a windfall for real estate moguls like your Bob Corker, like your Donald Trump, like a whole bunch of other people who now have to pay a lower tax rate than wage earners and people who are under paycheck because they have formed an LLC just for themselves,

even if they have no employees. Which I respect. You know, it's fine, though, because now the... I love it's forming one. It's no big deal, guys. Like the tax code now fits on a postcard like Paul Ryan always dreams. Never had.

No, no, no. This was real reform. No, it didn't fit on a postcard. It's more complicated than ever. No, no. No, they didn't. It's not. It's so simple now.

Tommy, no. I know. No, check it. No, you have to go look at look what happened. It's actually much even more complicated. I have to read the article? It's much even more complicated.

Fuck. The Corker kickback. I can't. So I just think like, you know, we used to talk when we've been calling this the donor relief act forever in jest, but it's also very deadly serious. But now it's like, just when you think these people couldn't become a worse caricature of themselves, now they have passed a bill to enrich themselves. Yeah.

These are like politicians. They did. Now they have passed a bill to enrich themselves. Yeah. These are like politicians. This is supposed to be the fucking red line thing that you can't do without getting in trouble politically. Like passing bills to help yourself at the expense of the country. It's like the thing. Like our advertisers, they cut out the middleman and they just gave themselves the money. I mean, I just think. It's about as cynical as it possibly gets. It's also quite a campaign message.

Like, look, everyone, if this, you know, a lot of people, and we're going to talk to Adi Barkin, and a lot of activists are there trying to change some minds today. And, you know, God willing, I hope they succeed. Maybe Collins or one of these people will have a last-minute change of conscience. They don't, you know, John McCain, I hope he's doing better, but he is home resting in Arizona after some treatment. He's not going to be there to vote for this bill. You know, it doesn't look like Democrats will be able to defeat this, but even if they don't, there's

going to be a lot of press about how this is a big win for Donald Trump, big win for Republicans. Republicans got all this agenda passed. Good for them. I don't think it's very good for them. No. Like, I think it's a pretty shitty policy, and I'm pretty upset about that. But much worse than the policy is, I mean, this is, I've said it before, I'll say it again. They have signed their political death warrant with this bill. I mean, the polling is not great. 29%. It's not great for them generally.

29% of people like this bill. Do you think that it's, would you think about, it's like there's so many different ways to attack this. But, like, do you think it's about saying they passed a bill for their rich donors or do you want to think they passed a bill for themselves why not do both yeah a little both the other thing that i think is probably going to be i mean devastating for our economy devastating for american workers and the fact is the fact that this bill created an even greater incentive to push activity offshore, to create jobs overseas. Yes. That has been the thing every party has run on for as long as I can remember, especially Democrats. They literally did the opposite.

I don't understand how this got into the bill and how you could create a disincentive to create jobs in the United States, but great work, guys. Yeah, for an explanation of how this happened, check out Gene Sperling's piece in The Atlantic. Gene was our National Economic Council head of the NEC during Obama, so he has a good explanation for this. But know, John Cornyn, friend of the pod, he shared, he shared this Wall Street Journal editorial. He'll be joining us at one of the Texas stops. You know, Cornyn loves to do this like grievance about how Democrats won't work with Republicans.

And it's the Wall Street Journal editorial board is a sewer. But like, but they make this, you know, where were the Democrats? They could have come to the table. They could have gotten a carbon tax if they came to the table. They could have gotten something that they would have supported. But no, the Democrats are obstructionist. When we did Obamacare, there was a six month period where we were trying to talk to Republicans, get Republicans on board, worked it through the committee process as normal. come to the table it was written in the in the middle of the night we saw it two seconds before it passed it never went through the normal committee process oran hatch couldn't even defend it so they're the part of the reason these this like bob corker can't seem to know what's in or what's out nobody seems to know it's because it was written too quickly and it actually has consequences tables and a lobbyist firm in k street unfortunately okay so to learn more about what activists are doing to stop this bill today last effort-ditch effort, we have on the pod Addy Barkin, who's an activist who confronted Jeff Flake on a plane. Gave Flake the business.

Gave Flake the business, and now he is in D.C. fighting this bill. So we'll be right back with our interview with him. On the pod today, we are lucky to have with us activist Adi Barkin. Adi, how are you? Hey, guys. I am pretty excited right now. We're excited to have you on. So you've been an activist. No, man.

I'm not excited about being on the podcast. I'm excited about rejuvenating our democracy with thousands of my closest friends. You know what? Us too. Us too. Who cares about the podcast? Who cares about that? There's a bunch of bros and microphones. Adi, you've been an activist for quite a while, but you made national news when you confronted Jeff Flake on a plane about his vote for this tax bill.

Can you tell us how that encounter came about and what made you do it? Yeah, so I was late to the airport. I went to the front of the line because I'm disabled. They let me through. I overheard a woman saying, oh yeah, I was trying to make this tweet go viral and I couldn't. I'm really disappointed because she's a good candidate

and I really wanted to get this tweet viral. So I couldn't. I'm really disappointed because she's a good candidate, and I really wanted to get this tweet viral. So I'm eavesdropping, and she hangs up the phone. I go over to her, and I say, hey, you know, I had my first Twitter moment the other day. I was arrested protesting in the Capitol, and the video got 4,000 views. So, A, it starts by me being a total a-hole, eavesdropping on a stranger, going up there and bragging about the topic she was complaining about. She says, oh, really? You were protesting the tax bill? My friend Linda Sarsour was there. I said, yeah, Linda and I got arrested together. She gave me props. She said, well, you know, Jeff Flake is on this plane. I said, really? Should we go talk to him?

She said, yeah. I said, will you film it if I talk to him? She said, yeah. I said, let's do an intro video. We walked down the gangway, do an intro video, go down into the plane. He's sitting in the first row of economy class, and I start talking to him. We talk for a minute, and the stewardess says, hey, man, we're trying to board this plane. You have to keep walking.

Jeff Flake says, oh, come back and talk to you. Why don't you go to your seat? So I go back to my seat, and Liz Jaffe, this this woman who had never met before who comes out of uh kind of progressive politics and democratic reform politics she ran for vice chair of the party this year yeah we know barely lost that was her listening on the phone and it was serendipitous so then we asked the person sitting next to me to change seats with Liz. We started tweeting down below what questions should we ask Jeff Flake. Flake's on the plane.

Liz came up with a great hashtag. And then he came back after the food cart went by about an hour later, and we talked. It was really both a sort of fascinating conversation to see, but also you could tell that you were making Jeff Flake uncomfortable, that you were putting him in a really awkward position and really trying to hold him accountable for his vote. From your point of view, like, what were you hoping to get across to him, and what were you hoping he took away from the conversation?

to him? And what were you hoping he took away from the conversation? I was trying to get across to him the fact that real people's lives are going to be destroyed by this bill, and that he doesn't have to do it. He can accomplish his tax cut goals without hurting so many of us so profoundly. And I was trying to connect with him on a human level, because I'm not going to convince him to human level, because I'm not going to convince him to become a progressive. I'm not going to convince him that supply-side economics is bunk. I'm not going to convince him that government programs are great. But maybe I can convince him that I'm a human being with a son who I love, just like he loves his children. And there's no reason that these tax cuts should be constructed on the backs of

depriving people of health insurance and Meals on Wheels and foster care. So Adi, all of the 52 Republican senators are currently yeses on the bill right now. Obviously, you know, the vote hasn't happened yet. I think the House is supposed to vote tomorrow. I think the Senate on Thursday or Friday. What are you hoping to achieve this week, you and the other activists who are in D.C.? What are you hoping to achieve with your protest? We're hoping to defeat the bill.

Are you planning on talking to other senators, to other representatives? Yes. Today we will be going to 12 of the swingiest no-yes votes in the House. 12 people either who voted against ACA repeal or who are in very blue, you know, comparatively blue district. And we're going to be telling our stories and saying, A, you shouldn't be doing this because we want you to care about us as human beings and not sell us out and destroy our lives for the benefit of K Street donors. And B, if that doesn't work for you, my friend, we're going to vote you out of office in November if you vote yes. He's someone who has, I think, I don't think he's done enough, but he's genuinely grappled with what it means to be a Republican when Donald Trump is president, what he owes his voters, what he owes himself. And you can tell when you're talking to him that he's struggling to defend his position, but he doesn't really give you an inch.

Do you think that you got through to him? Do you think he heard you? What do you think he walked away from that conversation thinking? Yes, I think he heard me. I think he heard my plea. I think he probably walked away needing to decide what to prioritize. You know, part of it may be like, he's like, I'll pay a wound to go into effect. This guy's hyperventilating. He won't lose his Medicare. We can get into that in a second.

So maybe there's a substantive response there. But probably what he said, we went away thinking was, boy, I really hate this process. I really hate the lack of regular order. But damn, I need these tax cuts for me and for my donors. And if it costs some people some stuff, so be it. But boy, I really don't like being called out like that. That's my best guess. But what the hell do I know? I mean, come on, you guys are the insiders, the experts. You explain to me what the F is going through their minds all the time how can they possibly justify this bs we grapple with it every day yeah i mean and give me the

answer so my best guess on some of these republicans like flake corker collins is they're sitting there thinking you know what i'm i'm retiring from the senate not collins because she's going to be there for a what, I'm retiring from the Senate. Not Collins, because she's going to be there for a while. But I'm retiring from the Senate. I pissed these guys off on standing up and attacking Donald Trump. I said my piece on, you know, I gave my speeches on why the Republican Party is all fucked up. But these are my friends that I've served with forever, and this tax cut is so important to them. And they're all telling me that they're going to lose in November if they don't pass this and it's going to be my fault

and I might as well give them a win too if I'm going to attack Donald Trump and this is the best I can do. Like, I'm wondering if it's like a personal these are my pals that I've served with kind of thing, which is such a bullshit reason to fucking vote for an awful piece of legislation. Also though, look, the corporate tax cut,

which is the motivating force behind all of this is something they support ideologically, that they're kind of behind, that they believe getting the corporate tax cut from corporate tax rate from the 30s to the 20s will be good for businesses and good for jobs. And the blistering unfairness sort of in the rest of the bill is something that just doesn't bother them as much as it bothers Democrats. Although tangent, right, epistemological question here. Why do they believe that the tax cut is good for economics? It's all make-believe. I mean, it's all right-wing think tanks that for years have been fed this nonsense supply-side economics.

Corporations are sitting on higher profits than they've had in decades. That's not what's constraining investment. What's constraining investment is a lack of demand. CF, the Federal Reserve, and some fiscal policy boosts. So even that, when we pull at straws to try to come up with a justification for this shit the best we can do is that they're ignorant yeah it's so depressing what do you make of the mass of the other 45 of them the john cornins and you know everybody else what's going through their mind why why do they get up in the morning they get up in the morning because they think that most of the

problems in the country are caused by too much government in people's lives and if they can drain the government of resources through tax cuts and they can shrink all these programs then the private sector can flourish and everyone's going to be great and and even if it doesn't what the fuck do they care because they're doing great i honestly think that's uh what's what's on most i don't i don't really try to get into the mind of john cornyn uh it's actually you know with because they're doing great. I honestly think that's what's on most of their mind. I don't really try to get into the mind of John Cornyn. It's actually, you know, with John Cornyn, I was actually thinking about him specifically,

that because he's really never had a moment of vulnerability or honesty in his entire public life, I actually find it quite difficult to understand his motivation because he's a wholly political creature. Okay, last question. I know you guys are supposed to be... You're hosting the show now. I love it. Yeah, too bad, guys. That's great. I'm dying guys are supposed to be doing this. You're hosting the show now. I love it. Too bad, guys.

That's great. I'm dying. I get to do what I want. Last question. When did our beloved President learn or realize, I mean President Obama, realize what we just said about the senators and their values. When did the light click for him? Because for me, the formative political experience of my life is the missed opportunities of 2009 and 10, when we could have gotten Employee Free Choice Act and climate change and a public option and so much more. And we didn't because he believed that they were good guys. So I would love to know from you from the inside, when did he begin to share the opinion that you just expressed?

I'll tell you, the first time he came to this conclusion was as far back as the Recovery Act, which was the first major piece of legislation that we tried to pass. And when, I'll never forget the scene when President Obama was going to drive over to Capitol Hill to discuss the Recovery Act with Republicans to try to negotiate in good faith and figure out what they wanted in the package versus what he wanted in the package. They put out a press release before he even left the White House saying that they were all opposed to the bill. Didn't matter that a third of the bill was

tax cuts, which is what they wanted, which is why we put them to the bill. Didn't matter that their third of the bill was tax cuts, which is what they wanted, which is why we put them in the bill. Didn't matter that. They just wanted to be against it because they wanted to be against everything that Barack Obama proposed. So that was the first time. I will say on the public option, Barack Obama wanted the public option, but Joe Lieberman in the Senate killed it.

Well, yeah, Joe Lieberman plus some other Democrats. The problem was not just Republicans who are acting like the Republicans we're seeing now. Their problem was we had Democrats in our caucus in 2009 and 2010 who were too conservative, especially in the Senate. So like on climate change, the entire House of Representatives, all the Democrats in the House, they passed a cap and trade bill. It cost some of them their jobs in 2010. But it died in the Senate because we had senators, conservative senators from Midwestern states who just told the president, who told Obama, no, we're not voting for that. Well, but it also died in the Senate because Lindsey Graham was working hard to come up with a deal to make it happen. And Obama announced that he would permit offshore drilling,

which was the carrot that Lindsey Graham was going to give his Republicans to come on board. I think Ryan Liz had a piece on this in New York or five years ago or something. It was Obama's compromising before you even get to the table, being reasonable, just on principle, that undermined cap and trade. is that not true is right wrong yeah no i mean i think that i don't i don't think that's exactly what happened i think there was a bunch of democratic senators who were not willing to jump on cap and trade if there had been we would have absolutely put that through the sun yeah i mean look over over and over again i mean look health care is a good example like the reason that there isn't a public option is not because we were trying to appease republicans the reason the bill took a long time to draft, I think there's a fair

point to be made that there was a sort of a dance with Republicans for six months with Chuck Grassley, with Olympia Snowe, with Susan Collins, that came to nothing. But ultimately, the reason, you know, first, the public option came out. And that was sort of the murder on the Oregon Express, like a bunch of Democrats didn't want a public option. So it was the conservatism of Democrats, not Republicans, that took that out. The final step to make the bill conservative was Joe Lieberman personally. And just to show you how tight the passage were, was we were at 60 votes. Joe Lieberman said, I will take you to 59 and you will have no Republican votes and you will lose my vote unless you take out the Medicare buy-in. So what we know is...

Wow, I didn't know that. Yes. So Joe Lieberman personally did that. I didn't know that. What an embarrassment to this tribe. Absolutely. Okay, guys, I appreciate you letting me interview you. No, it's great. No, this is good.

To conclude by saying that the health care- Just running the show. You know what? I don't want to be manhandled like this by you, frankly. The health care debate, right? Seeing where we've moved since then is what gives me inspiration. The fact that the public option is the conservative position in the Democratic Party caucus right now, and every single potential candidate for president is on board for a single payer,

not only is it a massive sea change from 2008, but Obama and Edwards and Clinton in 08 were already dramatically better than the weak stuff they carry in gore pedals when they ran. So, you know, despite the atrocities of Donald Trump and the Republicans, there are some promising signs for the coming years. There is. And last question, just based off what you just said. What can you say to people who might be tired of protesting, tired of calling their senators, might be disappointed if this tax bill passes? You know, we're always thinking about this here on the show.

Like, we're trying to tell people this is a longer struggle. But what do you say? You've been out there, you've been protesting, you've been working hard. What do you say to people who might be tired? You say, first of all, I hear you, brother. I hear you, sister. It is devastating. The attacks every week on black people, on brown people, on women, on all of us, on workers. It's exhausting and humiliating, and it undermines your confidence in the country and your core values. And so the first thing you have to do is acknowledge the pain and own it and be at peace with it.

And then you have to say, you know what, in the face of that, I will fight, right? Because the struggles that are in front of me are, in fact, they're big. Me, I mean, whether it's you or me or anyone else, we have real struggles. But other people have had hard struggles in their lives and they've persevered. You know, a lot of people throughout human history have had shitty lives with major obstacles and they've fought hard. Think about refugees in Syria. Think about liberation fighters in Argentina or in France in World War II. Think like, yeah, it's really, really hard. So what we've got here is less difficult than that. We have a

functioning democracy. We still have the ability to raise our voices. We have to do it. We have to persevere. We have to put a little self-sacrifice in. I've been living in this very comfortable hotel in two rooms with my wife and son for the last week or two weeks.

The boy's going stir-crazy. Rachel hasn't been able to work. She's doing child care all the time. We're kind of evacuated from our home in Santa Barbara where all the fires have made the air unbreathable. We're making a minor sacrifice to be here and to fight. Others, like my comrade Megan Anderson, who traveled here from Cincinnati by herself, almost fully paralyzed, are making bigger sacrifices.

And many people around the world are making dramatically bigger sacrifices to try to protect their family and their country. So we need people to step up. The democracy doesn't work if we hand it off to K Street. If we let the moneyed interests do their work, then of course the Republicans will do the bidding and the Democrats will fold like playing cards. It's up to us to protect our democracy and fight for it.

And I really hope people will do that. So yes, all around the country, call your representatives right now, today and tomorrow and all week. Tell them to stop this bill. Go to their offices. Take a photo of your family. Tell your story in front of their office

and hand it to them and their staff. And if you're anywhere near D.C., come to D.C. tomorrow morning, Tuesday at 8 a.m. You can come to the Capital Skyline Hotel or you can come and line up to get into the House of Representatives with us and join us in this movement. You know, and my last point is not just because we can stop the bill, not just because we can nationalize the issue so that come November, if they do pass this thing, they suffer under the wrath of American outrage and see a landslide the likes of which we're unfamiliar with. But most importantly, because it's a liberating experience. You come, you build community with people, we sing songs, we celebrate our lives and our values, we rebuild our country together. It feels so good. You've got to leave your houses, you've got to close your laptops,

and actually participate in this thing. It's a really amazing experience, and I urge all of your listeners to do it. Thank you so much, Addy. Well, good luck to you. Thank you for all you're doing, and keep up the fight. All right, thanks, guys. Stay in touch. It's going to be an exciting week. When you're back in L.A., if you want to go to Disneyland,

and maybe we cut a line or two, go right to the front, that's something fun that we can also do together, you know? That would be, my wife loves Disneyland and Carl would love it, but I hate that shit so much.

How about we go protest in front of a Republican office together instead? In. Let's do it. Fine, we'll do that. All right, Eddie, good luck out there.

Take care. Bye-bye. All right. That was a great interview. It was great. I like him a lot. Yeah, he's cool. Okay, so aside from taxes,

the other big thing this week is Republicans have until Friday to fund the government or else it will shut down. They are nowhere on this, guys. The House has sent over a bill that boosts defense spending but does nothing to domestic spending. And it also has no plans to protect 9 million kids who rely on

Children's Health Insurance Program from losing their health insurance without a bunch of cuts to health care otherwise. Want to get the fact checkers right there. Or protect 800,000 young immigrants from being deported. It needs Democratic votes. Schumer says the House needs to start over.

Send them another bill. McConnell knows this too. McConnell knows that this is a non-starter in the Senate. So the Senate wants to have a bill that actually funds all the health care promises that McConnell made to Collins, Susan Collins, to get her vote. But Ryan doesn't think he can bring his caucus along for that in the House, of course, because they're all a bunch of wackos. So we're speeding towards the big victory for Republicans on the tax bill. But government shuts down on Friday if we don't figure this out.

So what should Democrats do here, guys? I think I'm still where I've been for the past month, which is, Hi, Mitch. Hi, Paul. We're Democrats. We're over here. We have a ton of votes for you. You can have them. We just want you to do what you said, which is fun, Chip.

Help these American undocumented immigrants who are being had their whole lives put at risk by no fault of their own. And then you can have our votes. You know, we'll do what we said we do. That's it. But that's it. Draw the line. No more.

Just fight for what you fucking care about, Democrats. Like, this is so simple. Just stand up and fight for the things that matter to us. Don't give them votes if we don't get our priorities. Voters will not punish us in this case. We don't control anything. Also, voters in the press, like, we don't have the longest memories in the world. Right?

So let's just use this to extract things. You know who has memories? Activists have memories, people paying attention, people have been doing their part have memories. Like this is a fight about Democrats in Washington saying, we understand how passionate you are. We understand how things have changed. We understand how we're going to be responsive to you now. Yeah. I mean, hey, Democrats, look around the country. Look what's happening. Look at what happened in Alabama. Look what happened in Virginia. Look at the protests in the Capitol. Look at look at what's happening all over America right now. Like the old rules about being cautious and worrying how you're going to you know, what if they blame us for this or that?

Or I don't know what to do. Like, just stop it. Just fucking stand up for once. If Democrats go along with a government funding bill that doesn't help DACA, that doesn't help the DACA recipients, the Dreamers, and that doesn't fund ship, if they go along with that,

they deserve all the recrimination, all the anger, all the outrage, and all... What's the point of the party? And all of the people out there saying that they can't trust you and that they're not going to be passionate about coming out to help you next

year you will have earned it and we and you know dan and i said this thursday but like who knows there might be some secret negotiation going on where they know they're going to get a vote on the dream act they know they're going to get chip done and they're just waiting to see how this plays out but once you take that vote on a permanent government funding bill that funds us for a year if there is no dream act vote by the time you do that vote on a permanent government funding bill that funds us for a year, if there is no DREAM Act vote by the time you do that, and there is no CHIP funding, and you think you're going to get that vote in the next couple months,

you're crazy. Because March is going to come and 800,000 people are going to be deported from this country who've been Americans here and who've lived here their whole lives. And it's going to be on you for not using your leverage right now to stop this from happening. It's going to be on you. And you know what else is coming? A debt ceiling vote. So there is a ticking bomb that we have to defuse. And Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan know that we're more responsible than them, that we

are more reasonable than them, that we cannot bluff on the debt ceiling. And so if you think it's a good idea to push this fight off to when they have even more leverage. You're fucking wrong. Like, you know, there's I just it continues to be what has been true this whole time. Every one week of extension makes it harder, not easier for us to draw the line. So let's draw the line. So this is so this is Democrats in Congress. We also had a couple incidents over the weekend. Couple incidents.

Couple incidents. I call this Democrats being Democrats. In an interview with the Washington Post, Virginia's governor-elect Ralph Northam said he has no plans to try to force Republicans to accept a broad expansion of Medicaid. Instead, he has begun talks with lawmakers in both parties about overhauling the state's Medicaid system to expand access while better defining eligibility

to control costs. We all read this. We threw our phones. We screamed. Now, a couple lessons here, first of all. Like, Ralph Northam, because first of all, that was not a direct quote from Ralph Northam. Ralph Northam, maybe don't lay out your big plans on Medicaid

through a reporter, through an interview in the Washington Post. Maybe give a speech where you're quoted directly. Because about an hour later, two hours later, Northam clarified, I have and will continue to advocate for Medicaid expansion because it is a no-brainer. It's the no-brainer choice. It's the no-brainer choice. It is a no-brainer for Virginia families, our budget, and our economy. We can also come together on smart policy choices that will allow us to deliver better

care at lower cost. So what happened here? What's going on? I couldn't tell. So clearly what activists, what Democrats were afraid of is what he was saying was he campaigned on expanding Medicaid, and now he's going to govern more like a moderate centrist. That is the fear.

But in both what happened in the interview and then what his statement put out later, there's actually no contradiction. It just seems a matter of emphasis. So I came away not really even understanding what the – like other than him not just plainly saying I will expand Medicaid as I promised. Like I don't really understand what he was doing and what he was trying to do when he clarified. I don't get it either. I mean don't talk about these things as a political issue.

Talk about it as a priority thing you care about. It's a bipartisan area of agreement that getting more people health care is a good thing. So just fight for what you believe in. I don't understand how the answer isn't absolutely I will push for Medicaid expansion. I campaigned on it. It's important to the state. The voters want it. Yes.

I'm going to figure out how to get it done. That is the correct answer. What should he have said? No, no. So here's what i think happened uh at best i tried to understand this after i you know sort of went off on twitter about it so ralph northam on his own cannot expand medicaid he needs the legislature to do it right and the legislature is still narrowly narrowly narrowly in republican hands so he needs to pick off a few republicans one way to do this some

people have suggested is that he offers some of these republicans positions in his cabinet and then maybe you can get special elections and get democrats in there he did say in the interview he has no plans to do that so that's something that you could say okay well why aren't why aren't you pushing harder that's that's a good way to do this but he's not going to do this what he's saying is he believes he can pick off the republic he needs to pass his Medicaid expansion plan by also in that plan putting in place a few measures that control costs in some way. Some people think what he was referring to is how states like Louisiana, some other states, have expanded Medicaid. And the way they've done it is they've accepted the Medicaid expansion,

but instead of the actual Medicaid program, they've taken all those extra people and given them subsidies to buy insurance in the marketplaces. And, you know, Kaiser Foundation has said that this has worked in some states, so they're calling it like the private option is a way to expand Medicaid. So people said maybe that's one. He's trying to think of different ways to still get Medicaid expansion, but to get those Republican votes. Now, that seems to me entirely reasonable, as long as everyone still gets Medicaid, still gets health insurance. Does the expansion.

And does the expansion, right? But like you said, Tommy, he said it in the most ass-backwards way. He didn't, like, you've got to lead with your principles. You've got to lead with how important this is. And you say, I'm going to get 400,000 people in this state Medicaid because they deserve it because that's what I campaigned on. And I'm going to figure out a way to get it done. And I'm going to fight to get it done. You don't just have those conversations with your

advisors. I don't know why you ruminate about the sausage making behind the scenes. It doesn't make any sense. It was Arkansas that did that, by the way. It's the Arkansas model. It's also just, it is a reflection about how things have changed in a really good way. And it's actually

stunning. The whole country of activists and people paying attention to politics in a new way stopped to say hey ralph northam we're pissed about how you handle this that is a fix your shit that's a new thing right that's a new thing to have so many engaged liberals so many engaged democrats saying we're watching you we gave you our support we helped we cared about you winning it meant a lot to us don't let us down we're gonna we're gonna make demands of you now whiny liberals is a new thing thing? I've been one for a long time. Whiny liberals is not a new thing. It's in my DNA. Liberals paying attention this much after the election is done and holding people to

their promises and making sure that they're not moving to the middle or capitulating early in the game is a new thing. It's a bigger cohort than it's been before. Ralph Northam, as the governor-elect of Virginia, is not expecting national attention to interviews he gives about his plans to expand Medicaid. That is a fundamentally... He should have. But that's a great new thing.

That's a positive development. And it just means that what we're doing is working. And it means that everything from what's happening with the funding fight in Washington to what Northam is doing to what we're going to get to on Doug Jones, it tells you that people need, they can't worry about the media, the middle. They have to worry about the base too. And I would tell people who

were upset about this or who are worried about this, this is going to happen with Democratic politicians that you elect. They're not going to be perfect. They're not going to align 100% with your issues when they don't, as opposed to saying they're awful, I give up on them, I'm done, I'm cynical, I'm not getting involved in politics anymore, the much better option, the more effective option to achieve your goal, which ultimately is to expand Medicaid to 400,000 people, is to push them and to fight them and to protest

and to call them, right? And really that got to him. This does not end with your vote. This is an every single day fight. And politicians can be moved. We saw that we moved some Republican politicians in the ACA repeal battle. So think of how much easier it's going to be to actually move Democratic politicians who count on your votes to get reelected. Yeah, I do not think Ralph Northam walked away from his interview saying, I got one over on those liberals.

No. It caught his attention guess what's going to have a bigger place of prominence in his inaugural i bet medicaid expansion because of what happened here yeah you know it's a good thing so i just like don't don't give up on these people just keep pushing them same thing happened so doug jones was on cnn and he was asked if trump should resign over the allegations of sexual harassment and assault made by 15 women he said i don't think that the president ought to resign at this point. Those allegations were made before the election. And so people had an opportunity to judge before the election. I think we need to move on and not get distracted by those issues. Doug Huckabee Sanders. That's just not

good. I'm a little confused by Doug Jones here. I understand he's trying to strike a unifying tone and message as he moves into Washington to do what he does. But let's be real. There's a pretty good chance that that seat goes back to a Republican in 2020. So if I were Doug Jones, I would say whatever the hell I wanted and push as hard for the things I cared about and just be as honest as possible for the following few months. Grab Gina Davis's hand and drive off the cliff, Doug. I understand his point. His point that there was an election after these allegations emerged is factually true,

but it sounded so dismissive to people who were literally assaulted by the president of the United States. They have to live with that every day. And to people who have seen their world completely get upended following the Weinstein reporting and the Me Too movement like yeah that did not reflect the reality of where our culture has moved in like literally three months yeah and I think look there's a bunch of democratic senators who have not called for President Trump to resign if he didn't want him to resign you know I think democrats should say

the President Trump should resign but if he didn't say that that to me is not the end of the world because a bunch of democrats saying donald trump should resign is not going to make him resign right so it's not has an actual effect but he could have said that while also saying those allegations are serious and they need to be looked into and they need to be investigated in any allegation of sexual harassment or sexual assault against anyone republican Republican or Democrat, is dead serious and we should take it seriously and we should look into it. Like, he just, he didn't, again. I'm not, you know what, though? I will say that.

Just think about it, guys. Yeah, Northam. Think about it before you go give your interview. Northam, I will say, I will give Northam a mulligan and he's trying, and maybe he'll fix it. We'll see what he does. I think his actions will determine whether or not he meant his promise of expanding Medicaid. And Doug Jones, Doug Jones has to make a decision as to about what kind of senator he wants to be.

He did not win because Alabama voters decided they were ready to give a Democrat a shot. He won because his opponent was a piece of shit. And he won because of enthusiasm and activists and people who came out for him because they thought that he could help move the country in a progressive direction. And he campaigned as a progressive. Yeah. And he has to decide, does he want to be a progressive in the Senate? Or does he want to take a fucking long shot on in three years of winning as a Democrat? And I think, I think deciding now to become a milquetoast middle of the road guy in the hopes of winning is a guaranteed way to piss off everyone and go home with nothing. Yeah, the RNC and the Koch brothers and the entire Republican establishment is going to try to maul him like a bear in a few years. It doesn't matter what. Yeah, exactly. You're not going to be able to moderate your way out of those attacks. So

I personally think that the more advantageous political approach here would be to fire up everyone who voted for you this last time, register a whole bunch of new voters, see if you can increase turnout and like give it a college try. But like go down swinging if you're going to go down. Don't do this. Moderation is not a strategy. Like you can moderate on policy, but you don't need to go out there and like try to appease people. He doesn't have to be a fire-breathing partisan if that's not who he is.

Be passionate about the issues that you ran on. Be passionate. Go on TV and talk about how you want to help expand health care, how you want to do jobs, whatever the issues are. Be passionate about those things. You don't have to be mean and nasty. That's not what we're asking people to do. That's not what we're asking Doug Jones to be.

He doesn't have to go out there and say, fuck Trump all the time. But he does have to be passionate about the progressive issues and the causes that got him elected. Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, he was asked this question, would you vote with Republicans? Would you consider it? And he said, yes. And when you know, on its face, it's fine to say that. But like, it's all about tone. It's all about sending a signal. What he could have said is, of course, I will be willing to work with anybody to fight for the things I'd said I'd fight for as a senator. I want to fight for expanding health

care. I want to fight for jobs. Whatever the list of things he was pushing on the campaign trail, he can make that part of his agenda. The same thing with the resignation question. My focus right now is on doing what the people of Alabama sent me to Washington to do, which is expand health care, help them get... There's a way for him to do this. And by the way, one thing Doug Jones can do, which would be an incredible service to the people he represents, is be a passionate advocate for his policies as the first Democratic senator in 20 years, going around his state, helping to make his state more progressive. Like that is possible. People will listen. Yeah. But, you know, again, same thing with Ralph Northam, with Doug Jones.

It is early. And if you were disappointed by those comments as we were, you push them to be better, you know, and we will see. He hasn't taken a vote yet, right? He's going to vote for a Democratic majority leader, hopefully, in 2018. That's going to be pretty good because that's going to mean a lot more than if Roy Moore was senator or Luther Strange or anyone else from Alabama. We have a vote for a majority leader. Hopefully, he votes the right way on all these issues. And hopefully, if Bob Mueller comes up with a whole bunch of crimes

and there's impeachment proceedings, he makes that vote too. I have a little piece of advice for Doug Jones and his team. Sure. There is literally no reason for you to ever do a Sunday show. Thank you. That's your lesson here, buddy. I'm glad you got that in. Good point.

Jake, I love you. You're a great reporter. You have a great show. If I were advising a candidate, I would tell them, do never, ever do a Sunday show. Never do a Sunday show. If I were advising a candidate, I would tell them, do never, ever do a Sunday show. Never do a Sunday show again. Do a call with your local paper. Go do the local TV, whatever it is.

It's a waste of time. I'm so glad you brought that up because when I saw that Doug Jones was asked all those questions, and I was like, wait, why? It's why you just won. Go on vacation. I read somewhere his strategy was, you know, I want the whole country. Go to Mobile. I want to do a bunch of national press because I want the country to know that Alabama is not Roy Moore.

That, you know, it represents something else. You learned that from the vote. But there's also plenty of outlets that are not the Sunday show. Again, it's like all the Sunday shows are the same in this regard. Barack Obama didn't do a Sunday show for nine months until Hurricane Katrina because we wanted to send a very clear message that we're focused on Illinois. There's no reason to be out there doing this bullshit. It was the smartest strategy we incorporated. We stole from Hillary Clinton.

Don't do a Sunday show and don't give an interview about the details of your Medicaid policy yet implemented through the Washington Post when you could easily be misquoted or misconstrued. Just talk directly to people, guys. Tweet it out if you want. This doesn't mean no press access. You can do a long Q&A where everything you say is going to be on the record.

Try that. Go in front of a podium. Don't leave until they're out of questions. Different styles of communication in 2017. Take a spin through Waters World. Come on, Ralph. Just kidding. Don't do that.

Ralph, get us on the blower. We'll walk you through the whole thing. Ralph, Doug, figure it out, guys. Send us an email. Hey at Crooked.com. Let's get better. Let's get better. Reach us out through the public box.

We'll give you some advice. Okay. When we come back, we will talk to Representative Stacey Abrams. On the pod today, we have candidate for governor of Georgia in 2018, Stacey Abrams. Stacey, welcome to the program. Thank you. Looking forward to being here. It's good to have you. So you're running for governor in a state that hasn't elected a Democrat since 1999. Democrat lost the race by 200,000 votes in 2014.

But you just watched Doug Jones win next door in Alabama with historic African-American turnout and a much better margin with white voters than past Democrats got. What, if any, lessons do you take from that race about how Democrats can win in the South? Sure. I think there are three lessons. First is that you have to have the right candidate. And I think in that case, Doug Jones reflected the values of the majority of voters. And I think in Georgia, my campaign has really focused on that conversation about tying progressive values to real policies, being able to talk about expanding Medicaid to cover more than half a million Georgians,

having conversations about child care costs and early childhood learning across the state, tackling the issues of mass incarceration and prisoner reentry, public transportation. It's having the conversations with everyone, but having the right candidate who's willing to stand in their progressive values and not compromise those values in order to win an election. I think the second is having the right strategy. And we saw that in Alabama and before that in Virginia, that heavy investment in ground game, particularly in communities that are often overlooked or left behind, works. It wasn't simply that African Americans woke up and decided this time we're going to vote. It was that this campaign and a number of groups across the country and throughout Alabama had the resources to actually talk to them early and consistently and connect their values to their votes and say,

if you cast a ballot in this election, your voice will be heard. Georgia is in a very different position, though, than Alabama in that we are much more diverse. Alabama's electorate is roughly 70% white, and Georgia is 55%, which means that our margin of growth among those communities of color is amplified dramatically if we are willing to do the work, which unfortunately we haven't done in years past. And then the third is that you have to do it at the right time, and I think 2018 is that time. The Trump effect is not one of converting Trump voters.

It's about using and harnessing this enthusiasm, especially among young people, among communities of color, among immigrant communities, among women. And if we will harness that energy, invest in it early, run campaigns that are smart and thoughtful, and that value each vote the same, then we can win elections in Georgia. I think that's exactly right. I want to sort of build on that question, which is, I think for a long time, in particular, during the 90s in the Clinton administration, moderation was seen as a political strategy. It was called triangulation, but you could sort of appeal to both sides or at

least not offend groups on both sides. And that was a winning strategy. I'm wondering if you think that strategy still works and is still relevant in 2016, 2017, 2018, when it seems like turnout strategy and thus being unabashedly for what you're for may be more effective. I'm curious if you have a take on those two types of looking at elections. I think authenticity is always the best way to win an election. And I think, unfortunately, we took the lessons of the 1990s, a tactical approach, and turned it into a full-blown strategy. As a matter of getting policy through, yes, you have to work with both sides. And sometimes you're working with six different

sides because people are confused about which side they're on. And my job as minority leader inherently meant that I had to be able to work with Republicans, work with Democrats, and within my party, work with rural Democrats and urban Democrats, and then do the same on the Republican side to get to the votes we needed. But that's a tactical approach as a matter of strategy to say that you are going to triangulate your principles in order to win an election. Send a signal to both sides. For the people who aren't already on your side, they see you as a hypocrite. And for the people who should be on your side, they see that you don't actually value their principles.

and for the people who should be on your side, they see that you don't actually value their principles. And so I think what we have found is that unless you have a candidate who is authentic and willing to stand in her truth and be consistent in tying those values and those principles to policies, then no, triangulation doesn't work. It had its moment as a tactic, but it has never been a good strategy. So just to build on Tommy's question, your answer there, over the weekend, we've seen some anger and disappointment from liberals over Ralph Northam saying he won't force Medicaid expansion on Republicans. Though later then he said, of course, I'm going to advocate for it. But I do want to figure out a way to bring costs down. It seems like it might be a strategy to get some Republicans in the House of Delegates along. We saw Doug Jones say he didn't think Trump should resign. How do you think about the balance

between, you know, working across the aisle, trying to get something done, and still fighting those fights that the Democratic base voters care about? If you are the standard bearer for community, you have to speak in their voice. Now, there are going to be times where you modulate how you say it, but that doesn't mean you can change what they need. I think when it comes to the conversation of Medicaid expansion, there is a fundamental question of whether we believe that every person in America should have access to quality health care. I think that is a truth that progressives hold to be so. I would ask whether Governor Northam's intent is to navigate his way there. And if that's his goal, I think there should be some patience with

how he gets there. But I think it's absolutely legitimate to hold him accountable for being certain that that's where he's trying to get to. I think the same thing is true in the Senate, he's trying to get to. I think the same thing is true in the Senate, that as Senator-elect Jones gets to D.C., demand should be, is he going to stand for progressive policies that will transform America and let us reclaim our mantle of leadership in the world and protect Americans at home? That should be what he's held to. And there should be a conversation demanding to know how he plans to get there. And it's his responsibility, as it is for any elected official, to explain both their rationale and their approach to making those choices. In this election and in many others, I think, you know, you've seen a lot of African American voters express frustration that they only see

candidates coming around near election time, and that there is not enough work being done in communities of color and in legislatures and states in Washington to help the African-American community. What is a roadmap policy-wise, do you think, to help build back that trust and demonstrate, not with words, but with actions, that the Democratic Party stands for supporting communities of color every day of the year and not just when they need votes? I think the work I've done in Georgia is emblematic of how I think we get that done. One is that the party has to talk the talk, which means actually acknowledging out loud that we value voters of color, that we value disadvantaged communities.

When every narrative that we speak about only highlights a certain community, everyone who's listening hears what you say, which means they hear you talking about the folks that you want, and if they don't hear themselves in the conversation, they assume you don't mean them. And so it's part of our narrative that we have to start consistently and authentically discussing the needs of these communities. But the reality is no matter which community you're in, there are basic things you want. You want quality education for your children. You want a fair economy. You want a government that works for everyone.

And it's being willing to say that and to say that consistently and to say it in communities where you're not normally seen. But then it's also fundamental investment. say that and to say that consistently and to say it in communities where you're not normally seen. But then it's also fundamental investment. Part of the work that I did through the New Georgia Project, which was a voter registration effort, I heard politicians talking for a long time about how many unregistered people of color there were in Georgia, 800,000 in 2014. But one of the reasons we've been able to move this campaign is that people saw me do something about it. We registered 200,000 people of color in less than two years. So instead of just talking about it, we did something. I ran a program called the Blue Institute because there are very few people of color, young people of color in particular, who are brought into political campaigns. And if you're brought in, you're brought in to do field, meaning go talk to people who look like you.

But you're not going to be elevated to make decisions. We're not going to let you raise money, and you're certainly not going to be our communications or our campaign managers. And so I started a program that has trained young people of color across the South and Southwest to run campaigns to raise money. I did the same as leader of the caucus. I had the most diverse team, I would say, in the South and probably in the nation in terms of bringing communities of color who'd never been seen. And the reason all these things mattered was that when my team would go out and talk to folks, when they would engage voters, when they would run campaigns, people saw themselves reflected in the fundamentals of our politics. And communities of color, when they see themselves, they can start to believe that Democrats actually mean what they say. But the biggest show of

support is money. If the money shows up, we know you mean it. You recently said it was important to invest in the vision of women of color and black women. What did you mean by this? And what is that vision as you see it? The South is different. It has changed in ways that we have not acknowledged, I think, across America. And this is true across the nation. We've seen this in mayoral races that have been run. We've seen it in the election of Pramila Jayapal out of the West. We've seen it in the almost election of Tashara Jones. We saw it down in New Orleans. We've seen it across the country. When people see themselves, they understand that you care. And when women of color are elected, to be positioned for those positions of power signals that you have overcome extraordinary barriers. extraordinary barriers. Kamala Harris is a perfect example. To simply transcend the obstacles that are in our way signals to voters that we understand their kitchen table issues, their bread and butter concerns, but we also understand the complexity of being a person of

color, of being a woman, often of being economically disadvantaged. And having that history and having that narrative at the seat of power changes the conversation. We have to start talking about things differently. We have different voices that are lifted up. And that's the goal that I have in this campaign, and it's the goal I think women of color across the country have. We have been responsible for so long for supporting our communities, but we like and we deserve the opportunity to actually make decisions for those communities. As you're campaigning around Georgia, what are the issues that seem to unite

sort of a diverse array of people that you're talking to, whether it's African American voters, college educated white voters, non-college educated white voters? What are sort of the issues that you see as a sort of a centerpiece of your campaign that's bringing people together? The two highest resonances are education and the economy. We have issued two very comprehensive plans. The first was on advanced energy jobs. That gets such rousing applause no matter where I am, because in Georgia, you can use advanced energy, renewable energy. We do hydro, biomass, wind, and solar. Those are jobs that cut across economic strata. You're talking about the high-tech jobs, but also manufacturing and installation,

construction, administrative, accounting. Anyone can get a job in that. But I also talk about how you can use the resources that come with advanced energy to boost small business opportunities, to boost entrepreneurship, and that cuts across communities. We recently released our Bold Action for a Brighter Future plan, which focuses on early childhood education. And the most resounding applause I get is when I talk about the fact that we've got to deal with child care costs, that they can be extraordinarily high. And it doesn't matter if you are low income or middle income, if you are white, if you are black, if you're Latino, if you're Asian, if you're urban, if you're rural, if you're suburban.

It costs a lot of money to take care of a child these days. It costs a lot of money to raise a child. to take care of a child these days. It costs a lot of money to raise a child. And we have the opportunity through a scholarship program called the Bold Scholarship for a Brighter Future Scholarship that will allow families to make up the difference so that they're not spending more than 7% to 10% of their income on child care. That, without exception, gets applause, especially from women. Democrats, for as long as I can remember, have been eyeing Georgia, have been eyeing Texas as these white whales that could just fundamentally reshape the electoral map.

What do you think the National Democratic Party needs to do to win Georgia? That could be policy differences, messaging, investment. Is there something that Washington should hear that could help us sort of pick the lock on this challenge? Georgia is ripe to win, and we've been sort of Lucy in the football for the last few years. People get very excited and it doesn't work. The problem is each time there's excitement, the resources do not follow. If you look at the investment in 2014, about $1 million went into the field. About $20 million went on television to persuade suburban Republicans to vote Democratic. If you go back further, the numbers diminish. Even in the most recent presidential election, at best you could say a million dollars went into field in Georgia.

You cannot turn out communities if you do not invest. And that investment has to happen early. And it has to be broad-based. You all talked about this last week. In Alabama, the monies didn't just go to the Alabama Democratic Party. It went to small groups, to community organizations that were all working towards the same goal. And so I want the party to understand, and donors to the party, to understand that early investment is critical. In Georgia in particular, we have allowed more than a million votes to just lie fallow. Communities of color that have not heard

directly from candidates at the statewide level in decades. We don't need a million. We need 200,000. But if we are willing to do the investment early, we can win. And that's what my campaign has done. We've actually spent the bulk of our resources building that grassroots coalition, running a ground game that's already contacted hundreds of thousands of voters. We have people in every single county. And I am personally committed to a ground game that goes everywhere, in part because people have to see that you care about more than the big cities. They have to know you care about those rural communities,

that you care about the multiracial coalition that has to be built, because if every person of color voted for me, I'd be very happy, and I would not win. Georgia only wins when we knit together the coalition of consistently progressive white voters, about 23%, and we activate those communities of color. But the math is there. Georgia's a winnable state if we're willing to put the money in early and consistently. Representative Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for joining us today. Best of luck with the campaign. It sounds like what you're trying to do is very exciting and different, so we wish you all the best on that. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. Okay, have a great holiday. Take care. You too. Take care. Alright, thanks again to Representative Stacey Abrams and Addie Barkin for joining us

today, and we are in the outro. We are in the outro. Hey, guys, I wanted to let you know there's some new rules to the outro. I've banned the following words following the footsteps of the CDC. You're not allowed to say synergy because that word's bullshit. You can't say friend. So you have to call it a pal of the pod.

Can you say have a great weekend? No. You have to say Merry Christmas for any salutations. What else? Can Lovett say anything? We're about to do a Yankee swap here, guys. Oh, let's talk about the Yankee swap. Let's talk about this Yankee swap thing.

I poked the hornet's nest. Gish and nonsense i don't understand uh so i'm walking around target in a panic first of all also as an office we set a 15 cap on what you're allowed to spend two things that was too low i respected the fucking shit out of it it should have been 20 which i complained about and everyone said it was 15 and then what do I find out this morning? What do I find out this morning from one Jon Favreau? Oh, I spent $16.87 or some bullshit. You know what? Anyone who takes your gift on the Yankee Swap...

No one's gonna know. They will know, because we will find out after. One thing that should happen is once we should identify your gift, and whoever picks it should have to take out $2... Make change. ...and put it on the table. Make change. Yeah, that seems fair. Make change. Let's do it. Great. I'm let's do it great change is actually that word that wasn't so hard what did you make did you make your famous snickerdoodles for the potluck i said love it told us all he was making a famous snickerdoodles for the potluck you know what's funny make that i uh i so i said to the to

the office slack because we're gonna have a potluck i said i'm making my famous snickerdoodles it seems so outlandish i cannot believe anyone believed that I would. My oven is a giant clock. That's what Emily said. Emily's like, he's making snickerdoodles? He doesn't even have, like, pots and pans. I don't think he's ever turned on his oven. I'm like, he said it right in the Slack chat.

I just, it was so absurd on his face. Because we made chocolate chip cookies. We thought we were, like, duplicating your cookies. Well, there are no snickerdoodles. That was such obvious nonsense, but tell me what you make. I do have golden doodles. I'm going to postmate something. Oh look, we did an ad for Postmates.

Alright, great show. Alright everyone, have a great holiday. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Merry Christmas. We're saying Merry Christmas. We're saying Merry Christmas again. Bye guys. Bye.