Pod Save America - The Primaries Will Continue Until Morale Improves

Episode Date: July 21, 2026

Troy Jackson locks down the nomination to replace Graham Platner in Maine, Wisconsin's gubornatorial primary devolves into chaos as the governor wades in with an unexpected endorsement, and Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez rally in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed, who's locked in a heated race with Haley Stevens. Jon, Tommy, and Lovett discuss all the latest from this summer's wild Democratic primaries, Donald Trump's embarrassing showing at the World Cup final, the deadly escalation of war with Iran, and a recent slate of ICE killings that show nothing has gotten better at the Department of Homeland Security — it's just gotten quieter.For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail]

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blending since 1999. Welcome to POTSave America. I'm John Favre. I'm John Lovett. Tommy Vitor. On today's show, we'll talk about the war with Iran, which claimed more American lives over the weekend and wounded dozens, which the Pentagon is trying to hide. We'll also talk about ICE being back in the headlines

after killing people in Texas and Maine. We'll talk about how the administration is responding and what we know about how Trump's deportation agenda is playing with voters, Latino voters in particular. We also have a bunch of news from the world of Democratic primary campaigns, former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson is all but certain to be the Democratic nominee to take on Susan Collins in Maine. There's more chaos in the Wisconsin governor's race. And AOC and Bernie rallied for Abdul El-Sahid in Michigan as his primary against Haley Stevens heats up.

But let's start with some big news from the weekend. Spain's 1-0 win over Argentina in the World Cup final in the Meadowlands, capping off an incredible tournament. No one is sadder about it ending than Donald Trump, who wasn't about to let a return to first. on war with Iran stop him from inserting himself into the closing ceremony. The president of the United States on the field. It's now so they can edit him out of that.

Australian broadcaster at the end there. Did you guys see the caption of the picture in the Guardian? No. Where Infantino is with Trump and it's just the two of them. And the caption is, Gianni Infantino carefully explains to Donald Trump that he is not part of the Spanish national team. That's about right. The, like, the energy of accidentally realizing you're in the money shot of a beach wedding. You know, like, that is what a reminder of you.

They're about to do it. Get the fuck out of the way. Did you see the team that the players were doing the Trump dance and therefore really appreciating his involvement? Because Trump did this to one of them and looking confused. he just was like, yeah. I'm going to milk a cow back to you. Like, my guess is they're just happy because they won the World Cup and this is the best day of their life.

That would be my guess as to why they're happy. For sure, but if a monkey did a gesture to me at the zoo, I'd do it back. It wouldn't be a show of support for his politics. I might not throw my poo back at him. Right. It's like, yeah, it's like it's cool to go to the game. I'd go. If I could go, it's cool to present the trophy.

But like, get out of the way, dude. And he also did this at the FIFA World Cup final in like 2025. And like, you can see Infantino trying to get him to leave the stage. He just won't do it. He just basks in the glory of the cheering. Like he genuinely believes it's for him. I would feel like imposter syndrome and run off there. I think he also believes he's wanted there.

Like, I'm Donald Trump. Everybody loves when I'm part of their stuff. I'd feel imposter syndrome if I was the president of the United States and the U.S. one. Right. You didn't play. I would still say something and be like extra proud, but I wouldn't get in the fucking picture. And especially with Spain. Like the NATO summit a couple of weeks ago, he said, quote, I don't want

anything to do with Spain. They're hopeless. Bad people. He said they're called the bad people because they like didn't support the war with Iran and didn't want us to use their bases. Did you see the USA Today did a piece on the Trump curse, the calling at the Trump curse. So awesome. So I didn't know about all of these, but so Trump said before the the World Cup final, he didn't pick aside, but he said it's hard to bet against Messi. Yeah. Argentina loses. Trump intervenes to get the red card reversed. U.S. loses to Belgium. Trump shows up at the NBA finals. It's the only game the Knicks lose. In 2025, Trump goes to the Washington Commanders game. They lose to the Lions, 44-22. That same year, he goes to the Rider Cup. The

U.S. loses. They're calling it the Trump curse. It's so funny. The other thing about that commander's game is, so he goes to the commander's game. The commanders get stomped by the lions. And then at that same game, a lion's receiver name Amman Ross St. Brown did the Trump dance, and then the Lions lose five of eight games and miss the playoffs. It's even better. Yeah, so I think it's like basically there's three possibilities. Okay. One is that it's luck. The other is that he brings a terrible energy everywhere he goes, right?

That he and that his... That's documented. Right, for sure. And that that like corrupts anyone who's seen to be rooting for. You can't help us someone playing, knowing that Trump is on your side, allowed to infect you with the kind of negativity and failure that surrounds him. I do think it's worth considering the third possibility. which is much like Odysseus discovering the Cyclops on his way home.

Oh, God. Due to his failure to observe morality in the conflict in Troy, Trump is being punished everywhere he goes. Why are we all catching strays then? Well, that's take it up with Zeus, my friend. Are we Odysseus's men? Hard junk. We are the ones being sacrificed?

I'm not saying the punishment is not clean. know. Can I tell you my favorite Trump sports story from over the weekend is there's a golfer named Bryson D. Shambo. Did you guys go across this? I saw you tweeting about those. He got a meltdown at the Open Championship. You got a penalty for like, I think just stepping in tall grass that would have gotten the way of his swing and he got a two-stroke penalty. So he throws a hisy fit. He totally

deserved. Deserved. He throws a his he fit. And he sucks. He's annoying anyway. He throws his he fit. He threatens to not play the next day, basically, quit the tournament and take his ball and go home. He takes all these rules officials, makes them to visit the site. And then he goes back. In the midst of it, he threatens to call Trump and tattle on the mean rules officials if they don't give him his way. He also shut down the whole tournament too, right? They all had to wait. And they all had to wait for him to be done with his fit.

And even the other players who are watching, we're like, come on, man. Yeah. Come on. I mean, this is what Trump has created. You know, it's like everyone knows if they're friends with Trump or they suck up to Trump. They can just tattle and get what they want or at least try to do that. Everybody's calling the manager. Right.

I want a table. You get pulled over speeding. You know I know Trump? But, sir, you don't have a reservation. I know the owner. The German broadcast of the World Cup final. So they cut to Infantino and Trump in the box. They show them getting presented the trophy.

And the announcers go, well, that's a violation of all the rules. Those two are made for each other, fascinated by power and by themselves, too. Good stuff. Good hit. It's good stuff. Tough to hear from Germans. The cool, like the cool part of the story, right, that sort of suggests the Spanish team would not. like Trump's politics.

He's one of the players, a guy named Nico Williams. His mom and dad walked 2,000 miles from Ghana to Spain. She was pregnant with his older brother at the time. Across the Sahara Desert barefoot, managed to get into this tiny bit

of Spanish territory to become citizens, and then he's playing on the national team. That's probably why he wouldn't like Trump's immigration. Yeah, wouldn't like his politics. He wouldn't be possible with Trump's politics. So unfortunately,

Trump trying to make the World Cup about Trump did steal the spotlight from the tournament's real hero. Let's play it. We put on the largest sporting event in the history of the world. And everybody, including FIFA and the White House, to the FBI, to our interagency partners, to DHS, the state and locals, to everybody to figure out how to get six and a half million people into the U.S.

and into these games without a single major security incident. We have lived up to that measure because you guys have put in the time. It's truly, truly incredible. We just can't say enough about the preparation and the execution has been flawless. He's in every shot of, I thought of this. I was kind of like, you know, thanking, like, all the law enforcement officials who pulled this off, it's like, whatever, it's fine. Every single shot of that video is Cash Patel. Imagine if we had a crooked all hands to celebrate a year of making great content and through it we played a montage of just our headshots.

No one would be surprised. Yeah. And when I. Hey, I got to laugh. Lean with the chick. I got to say, so I didn't watch that video before so we could see it live. My reaction to that video is, who is this for? You know what I mean?

Like, who's getting jacked up to watch Cash Patel? Is it for Donald Trump? Because he wants he wearing a suit, not like the weird, thin hoodie t-shirt thing. I think it's probably for Trump. It's also, he's just in super defensive mode now, Cash Patel because he thinks everyone's attacking him unfair. Right, but it's like, you know, you think I'm a drunk and you think I fucked this up and I tweet in the of investigations just because I try to, you know, before, before. So like, I think he's just like, I'm going to, we got one.

We did one okay. And so I'm going to brag about it. It's interesting, though, because it's like, let's just take it at face value. Let's just not even forget the aesthetics of it, which are ridiculous. Couch Patel, in what ways are you responsible for the World Cup going well? Just walk me through some of them. Well, you're saying he's responsible for the World Cup not going badly. But that requires, are you, but that requires people wanting it to go badly that he's stymied.

Right. Like, what are you talking? I'm sure he's feeling like there was, you know, a planned attack at the UFC fight at the White House, and they foiled that. And so he's probably thinking of himself like, I didn't get enough credit. I need to put out videos from now on when there's no attacks. Not enough likes and faves for that foiled plot. It's just amazing. Like, here's me waving, getting out of my G5 private jet, man of the people, Cash Patel.

Also, the one thing we know that Cash Dell. Got to think as interagency partners. Yeah. Cash Patel has been working hard on trying to arrest New York Times reporters who reported on, on Trump's Air Force One. Did you see today that the FBI or the DOJ is subpoenaed records, not only from these journalists, but from their spouses and one reporter's mother. Yes. Got the mother's phone records. I wonder if they'll bring that up to Trump, any of the reporters in the White House Correspondents Association when he's on the dais at the correspondence dinner. Maybe the mentalist can, maybe Dr. Rose can, or whatever his name is

those man, whatever his name is. It's a night where we're putting politics aside and the fact that you're snooping on our report of my parents. Yeah, that's what we're just going to put it aside for the night to just sort of honor just be in the same room. You think O's could guess the mom? Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, well, yeah, why don't they just ask him for the fucking league? I forgot it's fucking O's. Yeah, I know,

I learned that, I learned that from a magician. Yeah, I really did. But yeah, like, ask him, he'll know. You should just, you do that, mentalize that. And mentalist it. Anyway, enough of that. Trump, who who just last month told reporters he was skipping his son's wedding because of, quote, a thing called Iran,

did not feel the same way about attending the World Cup, probably because, according to the White House, Iran is no longer much of a threat. They have been literally obliterated. Never in the history of warfare has an enemy suffered such clear and devastating large-scale losses in a matter of weeks. Iran has no air defenses. Iran has no air force.

Iran has no Navy. Operation Epic Fury was a historic, and overwhelming victory on the battlefield. The United States has all the cards. The straits are now open. The Iranian military is now destroyed. We've won. Let me say, we've won.

You know, you never like to say too early you won. We won. We won the bet. In the first hour it was over. Well, apparently someone forgot to tell the Iranians because they've been attacking U.S. forces all over the Middle East for the last nine days straight. They've killed at least three Americans and likely a fourth that that soldier is still officially considered missing.

The Iranian attacks in Jordan have also reportedly injured dozens of American troops and damaged helicopters. News that the Pentagon has just decided not to report, according to the New York Times. And if you're wondering how it's possible that Iran can still pull off these kinds of attacks, you're not alone. Here's Fox News's Maria Barteromo. I don't understand how it's possible that Iran has the capabilities to fight this way and continue to try to lash out at Gulf countries and U.S. military bases. because the U.S. has obliterated Iran's military, and the president continues to reiterate that. I'm reading these talking points,

and for some reason, they're not true. I love the idea of her. Hold on a second. I mean, just the camera follows her out down the stairs to another room with a whiteboard, and she starts doing the math on the whiteboard trying to figure out how the thing is like, I don't, this doesn't know.

I don't think they're telling the truth. The president keeps, the president would not iterate, let alone reiterate, If something not true like this, he would never say that. Maybe I just haven't been asking my questions loudly enough. Trump doesn't have a good answer or really any answer to Maria Broderomo's question. He threatened revenge on truth social and sent com announce more strikes and retaliation. But this is all he said after the World Cup when reporters asked about the Americans who were killed.

We feel very badly, but you know, those great people, those great patriots were out there fighting that Iran did not have a nuclear weapon. This is a far bigger job that we're doing. We were doing a little job and stopping them from having a certain capability. Now we're just ending it. What? Tommy, would you make it about Trump's answer there, just a little confusing? And just the general developments over the weekend? Well, clearly, he's pulling from a deep well of empathy at the top there.

But on the bigger job part, it's like, I think there's two ways you interpret it. One is like his factory setting is stuck on bullshit, right? So he's like, now we're reopening the street. And that's an even bigger message. He just does hyperbole with all things. But maybe it is the beginning of a bigger mission that could include like a permanent escort mission with the Navy or taking territory on the coast to try to like permanently claim the straight or her moves.

I don't think we know. I don't think he knows yet probably what he wants to do. My assumption has been that Trump does not want to restart the war because he doesn't want to raise gas prices right now in advance of the midterms. But the weekends events show how dangerous the status quo is and that Iran is learning. The journal had a piece about how they've adapted their missiles to move in the sort of like terminal part of the flight where they're coming down so they can evade our air defenses. And we still have tens of thousands of service members in the Middle East that seem like they're not well defended at

all. And so like either way, like the reporting, it makes it sound like he wants to not go back to a full scale war. But as you noted, Iran has been hitting targets all over the Middle East. And the Pentagon is putting out statements that they've hit targets in Iran for the last 10 nights in a row. So that's not a war. What is it? We are, the war is restarted. It's whether he whether we whether Trump wants to go so far as to acknowledge that the ceasefire that has failed has failed which he sort of has I mean he's like the MOU is done who cares but then and they've told Congress they're officially back in war I guess the other distinction would be there would be some explanation for what the strategy is behind what they're hitting other than as tit for tat

degrading yeah degrading capabilities generally yeah this is I mean Trump very well may not want a return to full-scale war for all the reasons you outlined. But this is the problem with escalation. Like, it's unpredictable and they strike, and then we have to strike back, and then they strike back again. And so suddenly the space for diplomacy becomes very, very small, and they just keep going after each other. Well, it's also, like, Americans are dying. They're a group of, like, he's at the World Cup. They're a group of families that are having the worst experience of their lives. their lives are being ripped apart because Trump doesn't want the war to escalate because of his political reasons. This is just a blip. He's very sorry. It's very bad. It's so glib. But you know

that if what he wanted to do was escalate, right? If Americans had been killed and he was aiming to start the war or he would just declare the greatest violence against the United States, right? like the the American service member are in harm way being being hurt by this are purely just sort of pawns either to be like either to downplay or lie about what's happening to them if it doesn't suit your story about how much we're decimating the military or he can use it as an argument for why we need to escalate if he so chooses this episode is sponsored by better help we're finally talking about mental health openly but actually reaching out for help is incredibly difficult new data from better help confirms why better helps 2026 state of stigma reports

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We have won. The mission is. is like not just mission accomplished, like, oops, there was a banner behind Bush. This was like every day they're saying that their military is destroyed, decimated. We control the skies. We control the skies. The straight is open. And also for nothing. The stated objectives, like, they haven't done, they haven't achieved anything.

They didn't destroy the regime. They didn't get the, they didn't make any progress on their nuclear program. They didn't destroy their ballistic missile programs. They didn't destroy the proxies. Yeah, I think we're in a situation where it feels frustrating and unsatisfying. because they don't care about getting caught in those lies by the mainstream press the way every other president in history has. But when you look at the polling, like this is the most unpopular war in modern American history. Yeah.

It's going to get worse as gas prices tick back up. And there's just no endgame here. Like the Iranians want to control the straight of removes. Trump can't let that happen. How do you sort that out? And you want to talk about the Houthis now and what they announced there's a blockade of Saudi Arabia? Yeah. So the Houthis, so back in 2015, the Saudis launched this disastrous war on the Houthi rebels in Yemen.

Hundreds of thousands of people died because of it, mostly because of famine. In 2022, they announced a ceasefire and then it's a peace talk. So Ben and I were talking about last week, this kind of fragile ceasefire kind of erupted because the Saudis bombed the Sannah airport. I think they were trying to stop an IRGC plane from landing back in Yemen that had been at the Supreme Leader's funeral in Yemen. We were kind of like, uh-oh, that's ominous. Like, why are we kicking back up this conflict? And so today, on Monday, the Houthis announced that they're going to embargo Saudi ships in the Red Sea via the Babel-Mandep Strait. So that's the choke point out of the Red Sea to the east where a lot of oil and gas flows.

And so I don't know how this would work or how they would implement it. But if you have the Strait of Hermuz closed and then access to the Red Sea shut off, that chokes off like another 5% of the world's oil and reform petroleum products that pass through that straight. And so the Saudis, the way the Saudi has been getting around the Strait of Hormuz being shut is they have a pipeline that goes west and south and they've been pumping oil and gas out and getting it out through the Red Sea. If they can no longer do that, it's a huge reduction in supply. At the same time, you have the Russian oil refinery capacity has been cut in half to the Ukrainian strikes. You have all the oil reserves depleted because the war because we all just spent it down to try to keep costs low. And then China had been limiting imports during the conflict. Now they're ramping them back up.

So you could really see a serious supply shock in price increase. So one to watch. I mean, maybe the Houthis are not actually going to go through with this. And they'll try to calm things down with the Saudis. But this is kind of like the nightmare scenario in terms of energy prices. And oil went over $90 a barrel briefly over the weekend. It's now in the 80s. But gas is up to $4 a gallon again.

And this is right at the beginning of this new phase. of the war. And the Houthis don't have to completely control this waterway to create a bunch of fear and force ships to either delay, go around, raise the cost of insurance, what have you, right? And, you know, having Iran and Iranian proxies in charge of these two choke points through a quarter or more of the world oil goes through is really

sort of once again, showing how much more powerful Iran has gotten because of this conflict. Even the language the Houthis used was just basically, well, this is, Trump is doing a blockade on a blockade in the Strait of Hormuz. We're going to do a blockade on a blockade on this side, too. That's just how it goes. Meanwhile, the Republican Congress has done absolutely nothing to rein him in on this. You have a few voted for like a war powers resolution and that's about it.

And now, you know, they have a week before they all go on break until mid-September. and the house is trying to pass the NDAA, also the supplemental extra like billions and billions and billions of dollars more, which is just absolutely fucking crazy. Nuts, billions of dollars. So ICE is back in the news for all the wrong reasons

after Agent shot and killed one unarmed man in Houston, Texas, and another in Bitterford, Maine. Both men were fathers and husbands who had been living and working in America for years. Both were driving at the time, and both were victims of mistaken identity by ICE. After the shooting in Maine, DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen ordered a temporary pause on vehicle stops by ICE officers, a pause that Susan Collins quickly took credit for, which was then overturned by Trump in less than 48 hours after an intense right-wing backlash to Mullen.

Despite the fact that ICE has arrested a record number of people since Mullen's been confirmed, even hitting Stephen Miller's 2,000 arrest per day quota a few times this month. This is, of course, thanks to the $170 billion that Susan Collins and her fellow Republicans funneled to ICE, which seems to be giving badges and guns to anyone who wants them, the ex-wife of the agent who killed the person in Maine, told the AP that because her ex-husband has a history of violent behavior and serious psychiatric issues, when he told her ICE had hired him, quote,

she thought he was having a mental health episode and didn't believe him. Jesus. This is the guy who killed a person in Maine. And now, according to the New York Times, federal agents recently received a written notice that the FBI would, quote, no longer investigate confrontations with immigration agents. It's supposed to be handled now internally through DHS. This is a report that's been denied by both the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security. So I feel like after Minnesota and Nome's firing, we were all worried that nothing would actually get better.

It would just get quieter. Sure enough, even Trump's approval on immigration has sort of crept back up, though it's still slightly underwater. What do you make of the administration response to the killings in Texas and mean. So yeah, that Homan was going to be some kind of a step up from Bovino and from Christy Gnome. The fear was they would continue doing what they were doing, but not as ostentatious. I do think, like, the fact that they determined that these sieges upon cities were counterproductive politically was a win that continued, but that doesn't mean they haven't been more competently and quietly aggressive. And they have continued to put people like this.

out into the field. We already know they reduced the amount of time. These people are trained. They lowered their standards. They've been desperate to recruit. So this is a direct result, not just what the Trump administration is doing, but what Congress has done to fund and give them the resources to rapidly hire people who have no business using a gun, let alone using a gun as law enforcement as part of the federal government. You read about this guy's background before he's in ICE. He's like, this is just a fucking troubled guy. Like a terrible head injury. He like was doing door dash.

He was doing correction. Like, he just was all over the place. Violent towards his own kids. I thought that the, um, the blowback to Mullen, uh, was very telling to on the right. Because it kind of goes to the point that like he's not running the department, really. This is just like, this is Miller's policies. And he tries to do something on his own to pause. And then Trump immediately just backs off.

Yeah, I wonder if Mullen got a call from Susan Collins directly because they're Senate colleagues and they probably know each other. But yeah, I mean, this ice office. are in Maine. He shot and killed a man in front of his three-year-old daughter. You know, it's fucking evil. And it, I think, shows that the policy has not changed much, but the PR strategy has. I mean, Nome and Bovino, like you said, like, they were being pressured to make 3,000 arrests a day. And to do that, they would have border patrol invade a city like an army and occupy it in the flashiest way possible. That included flying Black Hawk helicopters over Chicago or having

like little social media people filming all the people, stuff they were doing and then releasing it because they were proud of it. And Mullen is still trying to hit two. And Mullen is still trying to hit 2,000 arrests a day, but the arrest are spread out all over the country and he's less thirsty for press attention than Noam was, although... Probably doesn't want it. Low bar. DHS is still lying about all these incidents. They're de facto covering up for all these officers, but they're doing it in a slightly

less gratuitous way. It's not like Minnesota where they're saying Renee Good and Alex Pready were domestic terrorists or that, you know, Prattie was trying to massacre police, right? That was the intention that massacre police was like the line afterwards. And so Trump, though, is still making it clear. that he doesn't care if it isn't people are killed. He wants the dangerous practices like the vehicle stop arrest to continue if it means more deportations. So it is like they've definitely put a less flashy shine on their policies, but it is still very much the same dangerous, abusive practice.

And that you can't give in to the lives, right? Like you can't, if something terrible happens and there's a call from your enemies to be restraint, to show any kind of restraint, You can't give into that because that is what led us here, right? Like that's the problem. We have to prove we're really tough. Well, the Post had a good story on this about the sort of the blowback to Mullen. And, you know, it came from all the usual sort of right-wing media online spaces, but also the Heritage Foundation. And there's people in the Heritage Foundation making the point that Tommy did, which is they're all saying like, oh, Collins probably called Mullen because their Senate colleagues.

And this is the problem with having someone at DHS from the Senate because you're trying to please all those people who are too moderate and we have to just put, you know, foot on the gas for the deportation agenda and it doesn't matter. It doesn't, like, we're just going to keep going. Like, Stephen Miller doesn't care if it's unpopular. He doesn't care if people get killed. He doesn't care if what the detention center conditions are. He doesn't care what he just wants to do it. He just wants to get it done. And thinks that he is like, and the only thing that's going to stop him is tremendous public pressure like the kind we saw after Minneapolis or Democrats winning Congress and being able to rein Trump in that way with the power of the purse.

Well, look, his, his immigrant, Trump's of immigration ratings were in the drop precipitously around the time of the killings in Minnesota. They have slowly but surely ticked back up. They're not above 50. They're still, you know, they're not as high as they once were. But the, when the attention comes off of it, it kind of resue, it kind of reverts to. a mean and the baked in assumption, I think, on their part is people know that even if he goes too far, he is strong on this issue, it is symbol of how he is strong as a president. Right. I think that is the deeper reason he can justify politically continuing to do this. Yeah. And I think that because it's not in the news and people aren't seeing the excesses of the deportation project, Trump's

deportation project, it's like they want, most people want border security. And, and And unfortunately, most people want, like, approve of the deportations in general. They just think that it's, you know, when they don't see the excesses in the news, they think, well, they're deporting all the right people, right? They're reporting the violent criminals and that's that. And they forget about what happened in Minnesota and stuff like that. And you've got to, this way you're just got to keep reminding people and my people, you know, coming out in Maine and Texas to protest this is important to keep it in the news. Yeah, there's also just like a fundamental problem in when there is a mass shoot. And 12 people are killed in one place.

That is national news. If there are 12 heinous murders committed by people who should not have access to guns, that does not get the same coverage because they are distributed, even though it is the same level of harm. And so, yes, they are not wrong, right? That just people do not pay as much attention when these sort of injustices are distributed. And I know there's no good answer for that other than continuing to talk about it. Potta America is brought you by hymns.

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or going to cookunity.com slash crooked. One big question about the political impact is how this plays with Latino voters in the midterms and beyond. Our friend Carlos Odeo at Eki's Research always reminds us that, you know, the economy, not immigration,

is still the top concern for Latino voters. In fact, their latest poll shows Trump's approval with Latinos has significantly decreased for the first time since last summer, mainly because his ratings on the economy and cost of living have collapsed. Dan talked with Carlos for this week's polar coaster, which you can listen to

if you're a friend of the pod subscriber. If you're not, please consider joining at crooked.com slash friends so you can get subscriber-only shows like Policoster, along with ad-free versions of your favorite crooked shows, now including Runaway Country with Alex Wagner. That said, Carlos Ineckes also found that around two-thirds of Latinos think Trump has gone too far on enforcement and deportation, and among Trump 2024 voters who are Latino who regret their vote, immigration overreach was one of the top reasons cited.

Would you guys make of all that polling in terms of how Democrats, should handle this issue from now until the midterms? I mean, I think the takeaways are Trump's approval is down. Many Latinos now regret voting for Trump, but Democratic approval is not necessarily up. So we need to treat Latino voters like their swing voters, which they are. They have been. We're so way behind where we were with Latino voters in 2018. Carlos had a good message, which was basically like, don't scold people for voting for Trump.

You just say, you were lied to. Trump promised you a bunch of stuff. He didn't deliver. You're welcome back in the Democratic Party. I think that sounds exactly right. But I do think it's like the thing you hear from a lot of activist groups is that Democrats only show up in the last month of an election. It's all GOTV messaging. Turnout messaging.

It's not persuasion messaging. It's not early enough. I think that's like a lesson we need to learn this time. Yeah. Yeah. I think on immigration specifically, I just think you can like reflect what is true and also comes across in the polling. You know, Democrats, I think really did have their, but for a long time had their heads in the sand around the difference between. believing in immigration and opposing a lawless border, right?

Like there was just a difference. And there was kind of, I think, like treating people like they were pretty stupid about it. But now I don't think it's very hard to say, like we believe in controlling the border, but they're terrorizing communities, they're terrorizing families. You can enforce our immigration laws in a way that is not cruel and, capricious and violence and chaotic. And in the same way, he has failed to, like, because of his incompetence and chaos, like, failed to address, like, the reason so many people gave him a chance. Cost of living is up, gas is up, everything is up. He's focused on all the wrong things.

On immigration, we have seen so much chaos and so much violence, and none of it was necessary. He was elected to do, to bring down the cost of living and bring some order to places where people felt as though there wasn't enforcement at the border. Now it's time to have responsible adults who are going to make good policy and do it in a way that reflects what people want out of their government without being so incompetent and cruel. Yeah, I thought the polling was interesting in that, you know, Latino voters like most voters, they care about cost of living more than anything else.

So that's like the lead message. But, you know, sometimes it's framed as a choice between like, do we talk about that or do we talk about what ICE is doing? And, you know, Carlos and Egey say that, like, Democrats should lift up the stories of the people who've been killed by ICE. And then, but then makes the point not just their wrongful deaths, but also the stories of their families and contributions to their communities. The data shows that among Latinos who believe Trump's gone too far in immigration, most say it's because of the impact as policies have had on families, children, U.S. citizens, and legal immigrants. So there is, you know, the stories in the way that we would tell the stories anyway is what Democrats should be doing. Speaking of the midterms, one Republican who should be especially vulnerable on her unqualified support for ICE is Susan Collins, who is now likely to face Democrat Troy Jackson in November.

Jackson is Maine's former state Senate president who just lost the 2026 primary for governor. He's also a fifth generation logger from about as far north and rural as Maine gets. It's on the border of Canada, where Troy Jackson's from. Jackson won't officially be nominated to replace Graham Platner until the party convention this weekend, but he ran the table at the county level meetings where delegates were chosen to the point where all of his major competitors have now dropped out. So I pretend to be a dermatologist, and I gave him a sort of head-to-to-mole check, and he's clear. So no moles and nothing else. So I just, I had to put on the stethoscope, that whole thing.

You know, he kept on his underwear. I'm not a fucking maniac. Early thoughts on Troy Jackson, who's always been our favorite in this race, who we always thought would be the... I have no thoughts on Troy Jackson. I'm going to spend a little more time. I have thoughts on huge credits of the main Democratic Party for throwing together a process this quickly. That must be hard.

If Jackson gets it, hopefully that will go a long way towards bringing along the Platner voters who are probably pretty pissed off and the volunteers who were left hanging when he withdrew. We're still in a tough spot. He's, you know, the Platner left us a mess. We're behind it fundraising. We're behind in name ID. Hopefully now this can become a referendum on Donald Trump

and how voting for Susan Collins is a vote for the Donald Trump agenda. but yeah it seems like he's already moving towards that talking all about Susan Collins and and it's what could have been a very contentious couple weeks here yeah they figured it out they figured it out like credit to the main Democratic party credit to all of Troy Jackson's challengers too who like instead of hanging into the convention have all dropped out and are all supporting him now which is great just so people know who Tray Jackson is he so he was state Senate president he was reelected last in in one of the reddest, reddest parts of Maine. I looked up there in the first district, the state senate district. Registration there is 36% Republican, 19% Democrat, 45% no party preference.

Okay. So that is, uh, independent. That is an achievement, uh, winning, winning that district. Um, internal polls, there's only been a few internal polls with him and Collins. They have him tied or slightly ahead. So it's too early for that. Um, he's got pretty much all of Graham Platner's positions. He doesn't, maybe... Well, it's not some of his older positions, sort of just more recent political ones, I'd say, probably. Yes, political positions, political positions. Maybe, maybe not as, maybe not quite as charismatic as, you know, he's a little, he's a little gruffer. You know what? I'll see. Came in third for governor and used to be very conservative on abortion and gay rights. And over the years, has now, now he gets like 100% ratings from abortion

in gay rights groups. Great. So he's sort of changed over time. I realize that our process is not ideal. But in South Carolina, Republicans are like, hey, Lindsey Graham, you're dead. What if your sister just takes over? Hey, that's weird. Hey, we're in the market for Lindsey Graham and a wig. It's so weird. They're just handing a Senate seat to Lindsay Graham's sister. Yeah. And there, so there hasn't been a lot of, like, you didn't give us a process. Why did you give us this guy? I think for Troy Jackson, it's like, it's name ID, right? Like, people don't. I don't know. I think even people in Maine, right? Like, you're the state Senate. Does anyone know the state Senate president? I don't even know that.

Nobody. I don't even know how the legislature is here and the assembly is in California. Do you guys? It's going to be very complicated.

I'm not doing pop quizzes today. Just so folks, no, it's not just that Lindsay Graham's sister is finishing out the seat. She's announcing she's going to run for it. I know.

And I just want to be clear. We don't know. You know, maybe she has great and interested. Like she works with the blind. I don't know. There's a chance. Let's just be cool.

We always thought Lindsay Graham's sister was a reason. person who could have a conversation with. Let's give her a chance before she, if you discover that she makes Lauren Bobert look like Hakeem Jeffries. Unfortunately, Nancy Mace has dropped out of that race. We'll be running now. She said she'll continue to shit post.

She literally said that. That's great. She posted just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in from Godfather part three. Never, like the least requested person ever being like, fine, I'll do it. They being yourself, I'll be back in? The voices? Turns out Maine isn't the only speed bump on the road to a blue wave. The Wisconsin gubernatorial primary just got a little jolt over the weekend when Lieutenant Governor Sarah Rodriguez ended her campaign after revealing serious financial mismanagement by her campaign manager.

She was one of the leading candidates in the polls. Her dropping out set off a panic among the state's more moderate and establishment Democrats. We're worried that Francesca Hong, the DSA-backed candidate who's leading in the polls, won't be able to win in November. So even though former lieutenant governor and Senate candidate Mandela Barnes, is still close to Hong in the polls, Wisconsin Democrats convinced Milwaukee County executive David Crowley, who'd ended his own campaign a week earlier to get back in the race. And then Governor Tony Ivers, who had been staying out of the primary,

endorsed Crowley. Seems like they got everything under control up there in Wisconsin, huh? I, like, I keyed into this because when I saw the Sarah Rodriguez press conference, and I was like watching this video, and I really hadn't been paying close attention to this. primary, to be honest. But then I watched the video and just someone at the putting being like, here is when I found out we were being robbed. Here is when I found out there was not enough money here and there. Then I realized there was a problem over here. And I was like, oh boy, I mean,

I guess it's good to get ahead of this. But I don't know how you can win a campaign for governor when you're just getting, when your finances are so fucked. I still feel like I'm missing something in the Sarah Rodriguez story. The campaign manager double counted donations that they'd less money than expected. Then that same staffer puts out a press release that's like we're doing a million dollar ad buy. The candidate is like, hey, where's our ads? I don't ever see them on TV. Turns out the ad buy was fake because, again, they didn't have the money. They put out their filing and she has like 35 grand on hand. Yeah. So that's obviously bad. But do you have to drop out for that? Well, like, I mean, you couldn't have stuck it out. I just think if you're running to be the chief.

Something else. I get the argument. Like it looks incompetent. You can't manage your own campaign. Can't manage your own finances. But it's like, I don't know, the primary is August 11th. Like, I feel like there must be more we're going to learn about what happened. And by the way, like when I say Rob, I have no idea. It just sounded like someone at least insinuating that money was going out the door illicitly. Anyway, she's gone. Mare memory be a blessing. This is an important race. We don't want a Republican as governor in Wisconsin in 2008 when there will be a presidential election to certify. And so really important that we replace Tony Yves with the Democrat. I'm kind of confused why they didn't rally around Mandela Barnes. So Mandela Barnes, who we've known Mandela for a while,

he also ran in 2022 for Senate. He came like 26,000 votes shy of winning in a year where it was a 22 midterms. It was a more Republican-leaning year. And he's close to Hong in all the polls. He's probably like ahead of Rodriguez in some polls. Several polls show him ahead of the Republican candidate, Representative Tom Tiffany. And Crowley, who I don't know much about, David Crowley, but when he submitted his campaign, he never got more than 5% of the vote in any of the polls. He never hit beyond 5%. And so, and then somehow Evers went out and endorsed him and not Barnes. I don't understand it either.

Other than he lost before, they could use that same playbook again. If he lost to Ron Johnson, he's going to lose again. It's almost confusing. Like 20% of primary voters have already cast their ballots. It's almost impossible that David Crowley is going to win this. What him getting back into the race may do is assure that Hong is going to win. Yeah, I mean, all the whispering in those articles is they think Vendella Barnes is basically just as progressive as Hong and therefore will have all the same problems. I don't think they're all kind of whispering about bad polling.

I have no idea if that's true, but that's when like Politico reports on this and stuff. Yeah, the strategy is baffling. Yeah, like it's, but it's so funny because it's, it's, it's, it's one. One thing to think Barnes is also too progressive, just like Hong, and so Crowley would be the most electable candidate. Like, I get bad argument. I may not agree with it, but I get it as a legitimate argument. But then saying, okay, so we'll put him in the primary with two weeks left. He never hit 5%.

And somehow he'll vault ahead of the other two candidates. They're just hoping that the Tony Evers endorsement will do it, it seems. Well, also, yeah, even with, like, there hasn't been a lot of great polling, but also the polling has had the point. them all pretty low too. So like maybe they're hoping there's just a lot of people that have made up their minds. They're coming late. Yeah, the other, also just to say, like, Barnes was lieutenant governor of the state. He's not like coming from nowhere, right? Like, I'll just say this. Like if Hong wins the primary and, um, loses the general, it is not, this is not like let's blame DSA. This is the establishment decided to put in someone else,

potentially split the vote with Barnes and that's where we ended up where we did. It's not to imagine after Sarah Rodriguez had to end her campaign. Right. Of course, you know, I'm certain flame out coming. I think everyone in Wisconsin was just like, Jesus Christ, what do we do? Right. Scambling. Right. But that's what I'm saying.

The Crowley thing is the weird part. It's not the, like, no one could have seen the Sarah Rodriguez thing coming, but the Crowley thing is just a, it's a weird thing to do. Pod Save America's brought you by chime. Most of us picked a bank at 16 and ever look back. Sound familiar? What kind of nerdy point dexter investors of these people? Pick the bank at 16. I was f***.

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Canadian born. Blending since 1999. All right. Let's end with Michigan where there's a very chill, congenial Senate primary between former cricket host Abdul Al-Sayed, who the three of us are supporting and Congresswoman Haley Stevens,

who we're hoping to have on the show as soon as she can make it work. The polling is relatively sparse and a bit all over the place in a race where the The biggest issue dividing the candidates is Israel. Abdul wants to end all USA to Israel. Stevens does not and has the support of APEC, who's spending heavily in this race.

Abdul is also in favor of more progressive policies like abolishing ICE and Medicare for All, which is one reason he's been endorsed by AOC and Bernie Sanders, who are in the state this weekend campaigning with him. Here's a clip from one event. They want us to think that these forces are too powerful for us to overcome, that this is just how things are. There's $50 million in this race because they're expecting a return.

It's an investment. They've taken to calling me dangerous. Now, I don't know why you would call somebody who looks like me with a name like mine, dangerous. If you're a corporation wanting to buy a politician with their PAC, I'm dangerous. If you're APAC and want to send our money abroad, you damn well better believe I'm dangerous.

If you're somebody who wants government to work for you, I'm not dangerous. I might just be the one person running for U.S. Senate who actually wants to serve you. Thoughts on one of the last and maybe most contentious Democratic primary of the year? I mean, I hate that this has gotten jammed into the Graham Platner discourse frame, at least on social media because like Abdul and Grand Platiner are absolutely nothing alike and anyone suggesting otherwise is trying to smear Abdul in a really disgusting way and just clock that when you read these tweets and judge them accordingly. Some of the issues in the race are nationalized. Like there is frustration at the establishment and Chuck Schumer for picking candidates. That's part of the race. There's Gaza. There's Apex spending. But if you watch the debates or watch them on the stump, it is very local. It's a lot of auto industry talk. There's a lot of anger at shitty utility companies. Everyone in the race made a video about a bridge from Detroit to Canada that Trump was shutting down. They're talking about health care premium. So, look, I'm supporting Abdul because I consider him a friend.

I think he's really smart. I think he's good in the stump. He's taking principled positions on stuff I really care about. I think he'd be a good senator. It's like it's no deeper than that. I'm not a Haley Stevens hater in any way, shape, or form. If she wins the primary, like I will wholeheartedly support her. No matter who wins, this is going to be a really tough race.

Like Mike Rogers is a good, strong, repulsively. opponent. We barely beat him last time. So I think what's most important is whatever happens come August 5th, like everybody's got to put down the little Twitter knives, stop nursing your little grudges, making this about some bigger thing, some factional intra-party thing. And let's come together and win this race. And we have to do a little faster than people have been doing it up in Maine because there's a lot of lingering bullshit happening. You know, there's debate about Medicare for all, which is largely a symbolic debate, even if you support Medicare for all. The next Democratic Congress, if we're so lucky to have a Democrat.

Congress will have Trump as president. Like there's no hope of passing Medicare for all, but it is a symbol of a willingness to like go bigger, go against the establishment, be willing to say something that may not be as popular broadly, but shows that you're willing to fight. Now, you know, what AOC says there, like, oh, they're, they're, they're buying, they're buying the seat. It's pretty clear. like Haley Stevens has said she will support military aid and aid to Israel.

Abdul will not, right? They're investing to get behind a candidate who will support continuing to give military aid to Israel. Other, then, but like that is a symbol of what happens if either one of them is in the Senate. And put the like big kind of, sort of ideological distinctions between them aside, Haley Stevens is a reliable Democratic vote. She doesn't have a particularly strong, like ideological point of view.

You go to her website. It's a lot of nuts. in bolts, bring money home to Michigan policies. She supports a public option. She supports reforming ICE. She's just a reliable Democratic vote. Abdul is someone who will push on the party from the left. That is what he would do in the Senate. Now, I think that's a good thing. I think it's good to have people that have a strong point of view and want the Democratic Party to stand for something clear. Right. But in the end, either way, like, neither one of them is going to be able to enact any kind of specific agenda. It's the question of what you want in a, what,

what do you believe a Democratic Senate should look like, which why it becomes a proxy between Bernie and Schumer and all the rest. I do think with a Senate race, because you're there for six years, ideally this person is there for a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress. And then, hopefully, the next Democratic president does make a move to expand health care. Who knows how far they'll be able to go. But ideally. And so, you know, they will get to do, they will get to set the agenda, hopefully, in some ways. But I think, but to your point, I mean, this always happens with primaries, right? Which is because the candidates are generally similar on their policy platforms,

you try to find differences that then become magnified in the heat of a race that then make it seem like it is this manichaean struggle between good and evil for the supporters on either side. And look, I think in this one, you're right. Israel is a clear dividing line. That is where their policy, I mean, she supports aid to Israel with no conditions whatsoever, and he wants to cut it off. And even some of the other races where APEC has played in, I think the difference hasn't been so clear. She's on the right edge of a dwindling minority of Democrats who are taking that position. Even in the Senate, I mean, the majority of the vast majority of Democratic senators are closer to Abdul's position now than they are to Haley Stevens. Right. And so then the other thing you would do is you'd make it about electability. And I do

think it's been hard to make this race about electability grounded in a lot of firm data because look at the polls that we've had have been from not really high quality pollsters there's been a lot of internal polling from both sides we don't have like a New York Times sienna poll or a lot of really good polling and so in the polling that we have you know at the beginning of the race it seemed like Stevens was performed slightly better against Mike Rogers than Abdul now it seems like Abdul has like a point or two on her or they're tied. So it's really hard to make an electability argument. So therefore, now you're just fighting over personality. What they're really fighting about is like they're their hand waving at the policy shit, but they're like his name's Abdul al-Saiad.

There's a Muslim guy. That is what is happening. It is, I mean, I'm not saying Haley Stevens specifically saying that, but a lot of Abdul's opponents are when they say electability, that is what they mean. And that is what has gotten a little ugly. Well, into into your earlier point. And now they're doing the, well, he's got some of the same consultants. And so Graham Platner wasn't vetted. And we don't want another. And it's like, Abdul has been vetted because he ran for governor of Michigan. And that's why his name idea is so high in the first place.

And he's been like, you know, he's just, he's served in public office. Right. He's very different. Wasn't like plucked out of obscurity. And like the big controversy was about whether or not after he got his MD, Ph.D., he technically did a residency. It's like, it's very different than a Nazi tattoo and a sexual assault allegation. But is it like both candidates now are, I've seen.

them in interviews be like, well, this race isn't really about Israel and everyone else wants to make it about Israel and Gaza, but we want to make it about Michigan. But even there, there's not a lot of like, there's not a fight about health care. Like, you're for Medicare for all and I'm from the public option. Let's duke it out. You're for abolishing ice. I'm for reforming ice. Let's duke it on that. There's surprisingly little attacks from both of the supporters, at least, on the policy issues and more on. It's more like, it's more like money-driven policy issues. It's like you've taken all this money from corporations or APAC or other. therefore you're beholden to them. That is kind of the proxy for a lot of the political fights.

And then but for Haley, it's like there's a similarly weird thing happening online with her, which is like a lot of people are plucking up speeches where they think she looks goofy and sharing them. And then it turns out maybe people like those speeches. We don't really know. Well, I was, I always into like there, like, there's moments where she's kind of goofy and like kind of she's like, we got to let her rip. We got to stick it to them. And like it's kind of sweet. And there's this kind of aesthetics where if someone who has seen as centrist, or pro-Israel does something that is slightly cringe. Or it happened to Mallory McMurrow, too,

when she was in the kind of Elizabeth Warren role to Abdul and they were mad at her. Like, this is so embarrassing, you're so embarrassing, it's cringe. Like, this is the problem. This is the problem. You don't understand real people because you don't understand

what broken-brained online people think is funny anymore. But if Abdul has made plenty of cringy content, but he's good for the movement, and so those things aren't as bad. And I was thinking about when, like, Schumer farted on the Senate floor. And I do think he did not make the most of it. I think he should have done it about how we were having a gas crisis.

He, what happened to the man? Schumer used to be the guy at the gas station. There was a moment where he could have made news about it. Sorry, it was just unblocking the straight of four moves. Exactly, exactly. Look, not the only, not the only waterway they were having trouble getting things through these days at my age. But so, but I know, but if like mom, Donnie farted during press conference, there would be stories about how like, man, everybody's farting again. He's so good at this.

He's so good at me. This is a mass. at word. Generational talent. He made such a joke. This is why we need Medicare for all, he'd say, or something. I don't know. How do we get to farting? Because, because, because of Haley's videos videos. Because of stick it to them. There's a stick it to them. But at the same time, it's like, okay, you want to be this sort of like hard scrabble kind of salt of the earth campaigner, but also your campaign is propped up by tens of millions of dollars of outside money. And, John, to your point, like, one of the reason that debate is about that outside money and about

Israel is because she as an establishment figure doesn't have like a clear other than just her bringing money home provision. They'll auto bail it. Like what's the policy place where she feels so strongly she wants to pick a fight with Abdul over it? Well, this is, this is yes. And I know this is naive of me, but like as we head into a presidential primary season, like my wish is that the factional war within the Democratic Party is fought over different policy positions because there are plenty of differences between the left and the center left. And I think sometimes with the establishment center left, whatever we want to call them, more moderate Democrats, does is they look at the progressive movement, progressive candidates, and they either take

umbrage or dismiss them or say, or just like attack, attack, attack. And it's like, try to, you got to be for something. Yes. You got to be excited about your candidates and you got to run candidates who are exciting and charismatic and have something that they really want to get down, but they default to, and you can kind of hear this with, and I'm not saying Stevens does this, but some of her supporters do it was like, but she works so hard and she's just, she's got her head down and she works hard. And that's like the, that's like the thing for all the establishment of candidates is like, they just, they're servant. They're public servants and they're working hard. It's like, yeah, everyone's everyone in public life who's running for

office is working hard and doing a lot of good stuff. She's sort of a throwback. It's sort of a throwback campaign. Like there was a, not that long ago, most campaigns were like, I'm going to deliver for my state. I'm going to bring home the bacon. I'm going to get earmarks and pork barrel and just like build a fucking airport over here. And you know what? If Susan Collins wins, that's why. And Haley, like, it sounds like that's the kind of campaign she's running. Now, somewhere along the way, we found this desire where we also want people to be national figures and have national profiles and see value in that too. There's a bit of a race here. On the, on the goofy content thing, like, Abdul has put out videos that were so cringy that I sent them to his consultants and I said,

no more of this. Was he in a hat? I don't remember which one it was. It might have been more than one. But, like, he's put out a lot of corny shit. Now, I think there are people rightly pointing out, that I think Haley is treated differently because she is a woman. There's a lot of misogyny and sexism. In the messaging you'll see on Twitter about these videos. They're also just kind of cringy videos at times. And like sometimes she's a goofy messenger and sometimes he's a goofy fucking messenger. It's not always loaded to say that too. Like that's the other part of this. Well, that's, this is where like the attention economy has made people do crazy things. Yes. Like there's a whole range of issues that are just not really that much a part of a Democratic

debate. Education. One of the most important issues where Democrats have lost ground for the last 10 years or five years or six years and like i'll say something that would like this is one of the reasons why if rom runs for president like it will be good because he will be the person that clip it right shut i saw austin point right after it will be good it will be it will be because send it he will he will he will he will have that kind of old school democratic politics where he like he start now starring on hasan piker's next stream is how r he gets in back on uh survivor too fuck because he will force debates about these questions on his road to not being the nominee and like on a broad range of issues that will like kind of like in the way that Haley's

team is not causing not kind of forcing questions back over to Abdul on policy questions. I think you need center left figures who do that because we need to have those big debates. That's all. Well, Haley's big attack on Abdul in the debate was like you haven't released your tax returns yet. And I just wonder like it was another kind of like it felt like an old school criticism of someone. I just want to call them a celebrity. Well, it feels like he's attacking her on money, right? Like, you've got all this money being spent on your half.

So she's like, I want to do a money thing. It's not illegitimate. I'm just wondering if voters care at at all. We'll find out. Who knows? Speaking of Bernie, CNN reported over the weekend that back in March, when he backed a challenger to a Democratic House incumbent in North Carolina, Hakeem Jeffries called him and warned him against meddling in house primaries,

arguing that it's divisive and a drain on limited resources that could go to beating Republicans. Another member who was on the call said Sanders, quote, seemed not to care what you guys think. It was. Seems I absolutely buy that. The most Jolene phone call. Like, please, please. You can, I know you can take these districts.

Please stop. Please stop. He's my man. It's like, I get why Hakeem Jeffries would not want divisive primaries. I can't imagine any scenario where he thought Bernie Sanders would care. It's hard to imagine a conversation Bernie Sanders would care about less. Other than the debate, the interview I had with him where he, He tried to get out of it a few minutes early, where he did this.

That sucked. This is another problem with like the established from an argument is it's the response is always like, no, no, no, these primaries shouldn't happen or these candidates. Guess what? The candidates are going to run. People are going to sign up and they're going to run for office and they're going to be from all political persuasions. And doing the whole and Hillary started this in 2016 with Bernie, right? It's like they're not real Democrats and they're and they're not, they don't respect. the Democratic Party's institutions.

Like, you know who doesn't respect the Democratic Party's institution? America. And actually, and more specifically, Democrats. Exactly. So it's like, it's not the greatest argument to be like, how dare you run and how dare you upset our primaries.

It's like, go beat them. Beat them with better ideas. Beat them by saying that like their ideas are bad or their ideas aren't going to resonate with most American people. Like, there's plenty to go after before it's just being like, don't run. Yeah, it's a, you know,

these are people trying to do a hostile takeover of a failing enterprise. You know, if you think they're not the right people to lead, you got to make a much better case to the shareholders because they're looking at your record and they're thinking, I'm going to kind of take a shot on these people. Yeah. Well, also look at the Republican Party. Did that work really well for them for all the establishment figures in the Republican Party when they were like, no, Donald Trump can't be it. Good point. And also, they're facing their own version of this.

Like in Arizona, Andy Biggs is probably going to be the Republican gubernatorial nominee. He's a lunatic. In Iowa, my buddy Rob Sand is up against this complete unknown dude who's primary. work background was like working for the Koch brothers for a decade. He doesn't even live in the state. He's in Iowa half the time. He's in Kansas. That Colorado guy that's like, yeah, when I was a kid, I killed people. What's up? What of it? What of it? We all do it. Wait, what of it? Go back. That's one of the all-time interviews. So I killed someone. What of it? Yeah. They've nominated this lunatic in Iowa who wants to like ban the mRNA vaccine. He wants COVID vaccines

off the shelf. He's like, Marxist hijacked the curriculum in Iowa. There was a decade of Republican rule, but they're not backing away from him. The RGA is going to put tens of millions of dollars on air behind this guy. So it's anyway. Yeah. Well, like you said, I think it's going to be a bumpy couple of weeks in these primaries, but once August comes and goes, we're all behind the nominee. Sadow it or whoever it may be.

Did you see that on the sidelines of one of the events with Abdul Politico asked AOC about running for president? and she said, I can't say that I've ruled it out. She also talked about her own definition of what big tent means. General thoughts on how she's preparing for the possibility of a run in 28. We've talked so much about elections that are happening in November. We get a little treat to talk, just a tiny bit of speculation before we end the pod. Yeah, there's a little bit of like, there's like an Axio story about like, about AOC embracing kind of Obama-style hope and change as sort of as like evidence of her shift in preparation for running. and I don't really think it like reflects a like if you go I think AOC has evolved as a public figure

and I think she has learned a lot since she's been in Congress but I think part of what her appeal has always been is that you know she's there's some she's asked and she says I don't something like I don't come from a working class family I didn't come from a militant leftist family right like that's like that's just right like this reading the stage directions a little bit but her appeal has always been that she hasn't sounded like what Republicans want her to sound like she sounded so much more optimistic and hopeful. And she's also, by the way, said something similar about not ruling out, like, I think a month ago. Like, this is going to be something that keeps happening.

But whether she runs for Senate or president or neither, like she's going to use the power she has. And she is, I think, a more important and attention-worthy figure as long as the possibility of running for presidents out there. The single best way to get media coverage is to suggest that you're going to run for president. She's smart. She knows that. This will get her attention for her ideas. I don't know if she's going to run or not. It feels like she might.

Like the only size tent we are allowed to have is circus. It's like the Democratic Party. Our tent has got to be gigantic at this point. We need to fit a lot of people underneath this thing. So I'm glad she's saying that. I will say that she, if I were her and I were thinking of running for president, she is, and she's probably being told and knows herself because she's very, very smart, that like, you know, her risk is that she's,

she's seen as too left and too extreme and she's seen all the polling data, I'm sure. And if you're going to run for president and you at least want to prepare for the possibility that you might, I think she's doing all the right things that you would do. Which is that, it made me less than her answers, right, about like, are you running or not? Like the way that she's endorsing or not endorsing, certainly she didn't endorse Graham Platner. She hasn't endorsed this progressive challenger in Michigan in a house seat. And then wasn't on stage for the, like she's like being very. careful. She's being very careful, but not in a way that seems like cautious. Like she's just being

deliberate. And her rhetoric, right? Like she said, you know, you can have a clear vision for what we're trying to accomplish as a country and also include everyone in it and show that everyone has a place on that as well. It's just, it's not, it's at the same view here from many of the DSA candidates today. Except my, except Mom Dani, I should say. Yeah. I take her also at her word when she was asked about this previously, like what she's looking for is sort of outcomes, right? She's not just about her and her position. And if you think in 2020, there's obviously going to be a big contentious and very important primary. Either the vote of the left will be divided or will be united behind one figure. If it is her, she knows that as that person, she trusts, like, she knows how responsible and

capable and careful she will be and deliberate about how to hold that position, whether it is as the nominee or as the person who helps unite the party behind whoever the nominee would be. And that is, like, the figure who is right to like represent like what comes after Bernie is someone who A just truly believes in this fight and representing it as persuasively as possible, but also like Bernie and AOC, understand that if the more moderate candidate wins, it is just as important to get behind them. She comes across as someone who takes very seriously her role in the party, wherever, whatever it may be, and her role in politics, which is a good thing to see. All right, that's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday.

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