Pod Save America - Trump Revives Birtherism

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Donald Trump doubles down on the racism and birtherism he unleashed onstage at the NABJ convention—repeating his attacks in social media posts and even a rally backdrop. Jon and Dan talk about what Trump's strategy might be, whether he's feeling buyer's remorse about JD Vance, and the latest on Kamala Harris's VP short list. Then, Project 2025 says it's winding down policy operations. Will it live on in Democrats' campaigns? For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, with Kamala Harris' VP announcement imminent, we'll read the tea leaves and talk through the shortlist. We'll also talk about how, as we suspected, Trump already seems to be regretting his VP pick. And reports of Project 2025's demise may be greatly exaggerated. But first, the fallout continues from one of the worst,

most deranged interviews Donald Trump has ever given, which is saying a lot. His live appearance on Wednesday at the National Association of Black Journalists Convention. So Lovett and Stacey Abrams reacted in real time on the Wednesday pod. But there have been some developments since then that have kept this story going. developments since then that have kept this story going, namely the fact that Trump and his campaign have decided to double down on his accusation that Kamala Harris isn't really Black, and the vice president's response at an event that evening in Houston. Let's listen first as a refresher to Trump's comments, and then you'll hear what the VP said in response. Some of your own supporters, including Republicans on Capitol Hill,

have labeled Vice President Kamala Harris, who was the first black and Asian American woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket, as a DEI hire. Is that acceptable language to you? How do you define DEI? Go ahead.

How do you define it? Diversity, equity, inclusion. Okay, yeah. Go ahead. Is that what your definition? That is literally the words. Give me a definition then, would you give me a definition of that? Give me a definition. Sir, I'm asking you a question, a very direct question. No, no, you have to define it. Define the, define it for me if you will. I just defined it, sir. She was always of Indian heritage, and she was only promoting Indian heritage. I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black, and now she wants to be known as black. So I don't know, is she Indian or is she black? Donald Trump spoke at the annual meeting

of the National Association of Black Journalists. And it was the same old show. The divisiveness and the disrespect. And let me just say, the American people deserve better. The American people deserve better. All right, let's start with the man who's had a spiritual awakening since his assassination attempt. What the do you think donald trump was up to with that response uh and and that whole interview like the the entire interview he was just unhinged unhinged i think i've now listened to this interview several times i've listened to me too i like i it's funny like i last night i had watched it tommy had it on his computer when

it was happening and so i started i tuned in because I was so busy. I didn't even know it was happening. And then I went home last night just because I was so stunned. Not like surprising because nothing about Donald Trump is surprising, but just shocking. And watched the whole thing again. And it was even worse the second time. I was traveling back home from a family trip. And I was in the airport.

And I was following the slacks coming in and the texts and i was like this seems bad and my friend with my family my parents are like how bad is it i was like i don't know what's happening but it seems very bad and the well let me just say that in listening to it the true the part that's not getting enough attention because it's it might be the funniest part in what is uh largely an unfunny and highly offensive interview is when he keeps asking her to find DEI and she keeps. I was just going to say that. Exact words. She's like, that is the literal definition.

But it's obviously he doesn't he doesn't really get. He knows that there's a DEI attack that the right wing has been using and that it's like it's, you know, it's it's it's racist. And, you know, he can or it's a it's a wedge issue that they can use he like gets the politics around it but he has no fucking idea what dei is i think he thinks it's a word not an acronym which is why he was so confused by her saying it like he thinks it's like i would love to see him try to spell it i mean let's start with why he was at the national association of black journalists to begin with I can sort of see the meeting weeks ago, maybe months ago, in the Trump campaign headquarters where they decided to do this, right? At the time they're running against Joe Biden, we know from all the interviews that Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles have done to tell us how smart they think they are, that black men are a huge target for the Trump campaign.

that Black men are a huge target for the Trump campaign. They go out. So in their minds, we can go to the National Association of Black Journalists, talk to all of the Black media in one fell swoop. And a Republican president who's been repeatedly called a racist by Democrats showing up at NABJ would be a grand gesture to show that he's courting their vote, that he is unlike most Republican presidents in the past, he's actively seeking the votes of the black community. And they knew too that Joe Biden, at least in polling, was having trouble with younger black voters. It was highly unlikely to go do an interview at an ABJ. So he would have the stage to himself. Now, that is one of the things that makes, that's an idea in theory. But if Chris Lasavita and Susie Wells were as smart as they want us to think they are, they would have remembered their candidate is a racist asshole who also cannot and will not – he doesn't like tough questions and he really doesn't like them from black women. had not been in this place where he was clearly reeling from how the race has shifted and all the momentum that Kamala Harris has and seeing her fill arenas and the polls tightening and all of

that. Just in any scenario, even if he was still in his coronation phase against Joe Biden, he still was going to have to answer these questions in front of very good journalists asking himself questions. And he was going to melt down there. Maybe not to this degree, but he was definitely going to melt out on that stage. It was one of those things that's a good idea in theory, but theory fails to account for the fact that Donald Trump is the candidate. Yeah, and I also think right before he did the interview, he had some crazy post about like,

I thought we tried to do this on Zoom and now Kamala Harris is not doing it on or gets to do it on zoom. And now I have to be there in person. I would not be surprised if when the race changed and he knew it was just him and Kamala. And then he was like, Oh, now I have to go to the national association of black journalists.

He was already probably, you know, he probably wanted to do it over zoom and not actually go there. Then he goes there. And then I'm sure because he's Donald Trump and he thinks he's fucking great. He thought already probably, you know, he probably wanted to do it over Zoom and not actually go there. Then he goes there. And then I'm sure because he's Donald Trump and he thinks he's fucking great, he thought that the first question was going to be like, hey, you know, Mr. President, thank you for being here. And what's your plan on, you know, and the fact that the first question was so pointed about all of the, you know, you had a dinner with a white supremacist. You have, you know, you had a dinner with a white supremacist. You have, you know, said all these racist things. I think that when you challenge Trump like that, and we've seen this

with other interviewers too, the few that actually really push and challenge him, that's when he loses his shit. It was similar to that Brett Baer interview when he went through all the people in Trump's cabinet and team who had turned against him. Right. And Trump melted down about that, too. Yeah. So some people are like, was it a was it a strategy to say that I it's possible anything is possible with Donald Trump and his campaign. But having watched him for the last eight years, it just seems like when you challenge Donald Trump, when you corner donald trump when he's already upset he's gonna say crazy shit racist shit sexist shit it just comes out and like i don't so that now what happened next i think is clearly strategic well but in quotes in quote right we can debate

that i don't want to ruin your day but i want you to know it's just been nine years can debate that i don't want to ruin your day but i want you to know it's just been nine years we've been what we've been podcasting about for nine years yeah we did something wrong in another life well i guess we've been podcasting about for eight years but we've been watching out trump for nine years just to be actually accurate so after it happens he doubles down and the campaign doubles down at his rally that night in harrisburg the campaign projected an image of a business insider headline that noted how Harris became California's first Indian American senator, which is true. Trump also posted a video clip of Kamala cooking Indian food with Mindy Kaling and said, quote, crazy Kamala is saying she's Indian, not black, stone cold phony. She uses everybody,

saying she's Indian, not black, stone-cold phony. She uses everybody, including her racial identity. Why does he and the campaign think that this is like a winner for them? Why are they, what's, what's, what do you think is it? The only thing I can think of on the doubling down is like one of the first principles for Donald Trump and all the people around him is never apologize, never back down, just like lean into any kind of gaffe or controversial statement you make. I think there is some of that for sure. It's like what did Lovett used to call them? Intellectual Zambonis who would go around behind Trump and like clean up the mess. I think he's like strategic Zambonis here. I think that there is a strategy that is a very tried and true, very misogynistic strategy often used against female

candidates and female candidates of color, which is to paint them as overly ambitious, do anything for power. And so what I think, take away the way Donald Trump did this, like his execution of their plan was horrendous and offensive and counterproductive and hurt him in ways that we can talk about. I think the campaign's message is they're racing to define Kamala Harris, and they want to do this argument where she said she was black when it helped her in this way. She said she was Indian when it helped her in this way, as a way to make her seem unprincipled, phony. We've seen this strategy run against candidates, especially women candidates, all the time from Republicans. seen this strategy run against candidates especially women candidates all the time from republicans trump just did it in a way that was like such an unsubtle sledgehammer that it kind

of blew up in his face could i just point out why it's so fucking stupid and like where it's coming from that's not only in donald trump's mind but like a broader feeling on the right with some of this DEI bullshit. It's like, first of all, Kamala Harris, her mother came here from India. Her father came here from Jamaica. She has talked about that for her entire career. She has written about it in her book. She's given speeches about it when she became the vice president all of the stories everywhere said that she was the first black and south asian

woman to be vice president a lot of firsts there was a whole millions of headlines about that so the idea that it was hidden or she she tries she turned black is just nonsense right she went to a historically black college yes she joined a historically black sorority. Yes. But they are trying to argue that somehow being black or presenting as black is an advantage, is a political advantage in some places because everyone knows that black Americans, they have all this privilege and advantage, right? Historically, right?

And that sometimes saying that you have Indian heritage gives you some advantage politically, which is just, it's so fucking preposterous, but it's exactly how the right thinks now, which is like, oh, well, if you're white, you know, you have to work hard and get ahead. But if you're black or if you're some other minority, then the way that society is now and where's DEI and everything else, then you get an advantage that other people don't get. That's the real racist part of it. And that's what he was really getting at. It is a, without using the acronym slash word, it's a way of arguing she's a DEI candidate. She could never have succeeded in this way on her own because it is impossible for these Republicans to fathom the idea that a woman or a black woman or Indian woman

could best them in all these ways to achieve what she has achieved, to win the election she's won, to advance in the career. They can't comprehend that. They get to this also because Kamala Harris's story, the fact that she's black and Indian, is also an anathema to their view of America. What Trump is really arguing is that he is a bulwark against changes in this country that mean that white men are going to have less power. So we become a more diverse country. And so the idea of Kamala Harris is that, as Barack Obama in the same way, was something they could not comprehend, they could not wrap their mind around. And so the idea of Kamala Harris is that, as Barack Obama in the same way, was something they could not comprehend, they could not wrap their mind around, and so they must lash out at it in the most offensive ways possible. It does not compute in their mind that she could have achieved everything she achieved

based on her hard work, her talent, her brains, her grit, all of that. That is not in their worldview. It is not possible for them. That is not in their worldview. It is not possible for them. Kamala Harris, who has won more elections than Donald Trump and J.D. Vance combined, who has more political experience in years than Donald Trump and J.D. Vance combined, who won the race for attorney general, a close race for attorney general, particularly the primary in the largest state in the country,

who won a race for US Senate in the largest state in the country, the fifth largest economy in the world, and then who went on to run for president and get selected as vice president and then just spent four years working with Joe Biden in the White House. That is the DEI candidate that they are denigrating there. Just the other thing, I was on the Bulwark podcast today with Tim Miller, and something he pointed out that had not occurred to to me jd vance's kids i know which i don't even i didn't want to mention because it's like they're his kids but like oh my god i wouldn't want to bring him up either but he got asked about it and just basically stuck with trump instead of uh pushing back anyways here before we even separate himself in the most mild way to acknowledge the complexity of uh american life also donald fucking like donald trump's daddy gave him a bunch of money and then

he swindled his way to his fortune that's that's how donald trump got where he is that's donald trump's advantage yeah yeah i mean his his d.i.a is just being a Richville son. So what did you make of Kamala Harris's response? I loved it. But I want to hear why. I loved it as well, but I want to hear why I loved it as well, but I want to hear why you loved it. OK, so I had a couple of people say to me, you know, Trump doing this and everyone calling him racist and him taking over the news cycle with this. It's giving me 2016 vibes where we were all like, oh, Trump every day was saying something sexist about Hillary or then he was saying something racist about someone else. And suddenly that became the campaign.

And we all thought, oh, of course, he's going to lose and then he wins. Right. And I do think that not just the Clinton campaign, but the whole Democratic Party has sort of learned over the last several years that he wants us to take the bait. Right. He wants he was desperate for the Harris campaign and Democrats to be like, you're a racist. And then he's like, I didn't say anything racist. I said that she's just trying to prove that she's not really black. And they want that. And the fact that Kamala Harris stood up there and said it was disrespectful, like he always is, and it's divisive, which he always is. But same old story, same old act.

We're all tired of it. We've been hearing it for nine years. There's nothing new. It's complete bullshit. This is why we need to move forward. This is why we need to turn the page. It is the strongest argument and it prevents her from getting sucked in.

And it's also not ignoring it altogether because I'm sure some people, oh, she should ignore it. You can't ignore it. But I think lifting it up and making it about it's not a fight between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. He wants it to be a personal fight between the two of them. What she needs to do is every time he does this, talk about like this is a race about the people of this country and living in an inclusive, diverse country where every single person has the chance to get ahead. That's what this race is about. He doesn't want it to be about that. He wants to be about like

lobbing insults at me and everyone else because that's who he is. We're so tired of that. Let's move on. Yeah. I thought what I loved about it was she seemed overjoyed to take it on. Like she almost laughed in that clip right before she started because she was ready for it. You're right. It wasn't in anger. It wasn't about her. It was about taking it back on Donald Trump and then fitting it back in her frame. And I love when she said, same old stuff, right? We've seen it. It's the past.

We're focused on the future. We don't need this. And there is something. And this is what I have loved about their campaign to date, is they take everything as an opportunity to push their frame, right? They're fighting the war, not the individual battles. Because there was just something inherently old in past about not understanding people's complex identities in 2024. It is an old man thing, right? It is an old, out of touch, 78-year-old rich guy who lives in Palm Beach who doesn't get it.

Because tens of millions of Americans identify as biracial, right? Everyone knows someone in their family, their friends, who it's a white mom, black dad, everything, right? And how people talk about it and think about it. And we dealt with this with Obama too, right? This was the whole thing. Obama's not black enough, all those things. And people got it. You never had to be explained because they understand because they see it in their lives. And Donald Trump just looks like an old fart that doesn't get it. And that's what you want, right?

This is, that is how this race has fundamentally shifted in the last two weeks is it is, we have gone from present versus near past to future versus past. Trump is the past. An old fart and an old fart who's fucking scared. Yeah. Like he looked and sounded weak doing that. Like I know his whole thing and the whole race against Joe Biden was strength and Joe Biden's weak, but Donald Trump latching out like that

makes him seem small and weak. It did not come from a position of strength. So of course, J.D. Vance joined in the stupidity in Arizona on Wednesday night. He called Harris a, quote, phony in his remarks and later added that she has a, quote, fundamental chameleon like nature that she is, quote, not who she pretends to be. And he also accused her of faking a southern accent in her Atlanta rally after his event. comments that not having children makes you, quote, sociopathic. When reporters asked him, Vance said, quote, I'm happy to defend what I said because what I said is true in a clip that the Harris campaign immediately circulated. Good for them. So we've been wondering when Trump is going to get tired of the J.D. Vance routine. It seems like the time might be now. He was asked about Vance at the NABJ event. This didn't get obviously as much attention for good reason. But here's what he said when he was asked about Vance at the NABJ event. This didn't get, obviously, as much attention for good reason. But here's what he said when he was asked about J.D. Vance.

When you look at J.D. Vance, is he ready on day one? Does he what? Ready on day one, if he has to be. I've always had great respect for him and for the other candidates, too. But I will say this, and I think this is well documented. Historically, the vice president, in terms of the election, does not have any impact. I mean, virtually no impact. We knew it.

Honestly, I thought it would come as a leak first, or I thought that maybe Trump would try to dress it up a little more. But he basically stuck two daggers in. He was asked, is he ready on day one? And his response is, is he ready to be president on day one? And his response is, the VP doesn't matter. Because you can always, we've now been watching this sad, sad man in the public sphere for so long. You also know this is the conversation he's been having with a bunch of rich Palm Beach donor types who are asking whether he fucked up the JD Vance pick. And his answer is, he can't defend it

because there's no upside there at all. But he would just say, it doesn't matter. And he's like, historically, it doesn't matter. It's not exactly true, but it's kind of true. Also, just the way he mentioned that he liked the other people too. And he did say another like little, I mean, I mean i could that got me nervous that i'm like oh no he's gonna drop him i think there's a chance he could but i also love that he said he had always had great respect for him yeah this is and also you know for meaning like until i didn't know any of this shit was gonna happen that's that's basically what he was trying to say. I mean, Don Jr. had his one moment in the sun where his dad pretended like he loved him on stage at the convention.

And now he is fucked. He has fallen so far below Eric. He might be below Tiffany now in the family inheritance. How long does Donald Trump have to do something about J.D. Vance if he wanted to drop him from the ticket? Don't they have to print ballots somewhat soon? Soon-ish. I don't think we're at ballot printing yet, but we're getting pretty close because we're not that far away from early votes starting in a handful of states.

So you could, I mean, you can still do the switch after the ballot printing, but you'd much prefer not to. That's actually a really good question for an attorney, of which we know someone we could ask, because I know what happened, how tricky it is. The top of the ticket person is, but I don't know what would happen tricky it is if the top of the ticket person is but i don't know what would happen if it's the wrong person on the ballot on the bottom like like if it is all of a sudden it was trump bergham uh what that would do but yeah but basically i think he would have like maybe a week at most to probably do this

i also can't imagine it being bergham as a replacement because it's like we're gonna drop jd vance but don't you worry everyone we got doug bergham i mean i don't know anyone who would be exciting for people but like even rubio i guess would be better at that point i don't know uh you know there's a conversation happening somewhere in mar-a-lago and that or in the trump campaign somewhere where they're whispering about like well he could ditch jd vance maybe during the democratic convention step on her speech do something like that get it get a get a press hit or maybe do it the day after like they're thinking about it i guess august 7th would be the uh probably the deadline because

that was the ohio ballot and trump like like Kamala Harris could become president without Ohio. Donald Trump cannot. So, yeah, August 7th, you have to switch. And then the RNC would have some process by which they just rubber stamped whoever their place. The new the new. Yeah. There was also reporting in the bulwark that everyone on the Trump team thinks that Kellyanne

Conway, who is in favor of Rubio for the VP pick, is leaking internal doubts about Vance. She didn't exactly deny it to Mark Caputo at the Bulwark. What do you think is going on there? Is that just internal sniping where the campaign's pissed at Kellyanne and Kellyanne is sniping back? Or what's going on there? I mean, who knows with these people? One thing that's pretty clear from seeing Kellyanne over all these years is she really wants people to think she's right. Right and in the know.

from seeing Kellyanne over all these years is she really wants people to think she's right. Right and in the know. The piece said that she bristled at the suggestion that she's not still advising Donald Trump. And she's like, I advise him all the time. I mean, yes, that is very clear that in any conversation she has, she must put herself in the center of all big decisions in Trump land. And so you can just see a world where she's telling people that she was in the room pushing for Rubio or whoever else. And so she's not responsible for this numbskull who keeps saying crazy shit. So, yeah, it is. You know, this is also it's another sign that wheels are coming off because that's this was like a flashback to 2017 and 2021 Axios stories about various people knifing each other in Trump. We're like, there's been none of that throughout this campaign.

We've joked about the famously disciplined Trump campaign, but one way where they have been more coherent is that there's less of that internal drama spilling out into the pages of Politico and Axios, or the bulwark in this case. This is the first time that's happening. That's also a sign that they are on their heels since Kamala Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee. a sign that they are on their heels since Kamala Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee. Of course, time is a flat circle. So all of the Trump campaign internal sniping stories are coming back one more time. Yeah, because those stories always come if history says anything. 14 to 21 days after the Trump is a changed man stories. So we're right. We're right on schedule here. Yeah, we are. We are. All right.

Lastly, before we move off of this horror show of an interview forever, Rachel Scott also asked Trump whether he can legitimately claim to be the candidate of law and order when he wants to pardon the January 6th rioters. Here's what he said. My question is on those rioters who assaulted officers. You have to ask, what's going to happen? Oh, absolutely. I would. If they're innocent's going to happen? Oh, absolutely I would. You would pardon those?

If they're innocent, I would pardon them. They've been convicted. And by the way, the Supreme Court just under... He would pardon people who have been convicted of physically assaulting police officers. In some cases, giving them injuries that they are still recovering from right now. And we didn't play it in the clip,

but afterwards, when she says, well, they've been convicted, he's like, yeah, but this system, you know, this unfair system. So again, convictions only count in Trump's mind when they are convictions against people he does not like, when they are convictions against people that support him or the people that he likes, they do not matter. that is the guy who wants to be the chief law enforcement officer in this country and execute our laws cool stuff i mean it is that's gonna be the worst politics like i mean i just like i know i could see in the last couple months there were a few quotes here and there from people in the trump orbit that they were like maybe trying to walk back the pardon thing by saying well he wants to he wouldn't

pardon the rioters who've been convicted of physical assault it's the it's the ones who've been convicted of like trespassing or just been sitting in jail and all they did was just walk into the capitol right like he right just physically assaulting police officers sure pardoned i mean that to me is an ad that's an an ad right there. Yeah, 100%. And even the – like you're really dancing on the head of a pin if you're trying to separate the people who – I know. Who were the – the actual violence on the people who went into the Capitol because we've seen in polling – look, there are lots – majorities of Republicans believe that the election was stolen. Many of them believe that Trump did nothing wrong on January 6th. They have better feelings about – they think some of the convictions were wrong, the system is broken, but they really do not like the people who actually went into the Capitol and even a lot of Republicans do not think they should be pardoned. And so Trump is – you're right.

He is zoned in on – there's no more – there's no less popular way to talk about this than Trump is doing it. Like he is – he's just, it's bizarre almost. It's, it, it, there is, has always been like this self-destructive impulse in him and it is coming out and he is in full flower right now. God, this is why I want the, the, the debate so badly. Cause can you imagine? Yeah, I know. And again, the, the last debate, it probably would have happened. He would have been self-destructive had Biden not had the night that he had. But, you know, he wasn't challenged. And I think if he's challenged at a debate, which I'm sure Kamala Harris would do, and I'm sure the moderators would do as well,

who knows? Who knows what we'll see? Speaking of political liabilities, Project 2025 is, quote, winding down its policy operations, according to The Washington Post, and the guy who was running it stepped down. This was also a fun reminder that Project 2025 isn't just a document full of terrible and unpopular ideas. It was also a staffing operation run out of the Heritage Foundation to act specifically as an administration in waiting for Donald Trump. And it was filled with over 200 people who worked in the last Trump administration, including some very senior advisors and a handful of cabinet secretaries. Anyway, the Trump campaign released a statement saying, quote, Reports of Project 2025's demise would be greatly welcomed

and should serve as notice to anyone or any group trying to misrepresent their influence with President Trump and his campaign. It will not end well for you. Okay. Not everyone's so happy about this on the right. Molly Hemingway, the editor-in-chief of The Federalist, tweeted, Trump world bows down to left-wing media lies and keeps signaling he doesn't want his most loyal foot soldiers

who kept with him even when very few others did or their conservative ideas in his next administration. Interesting. Thank you, Molly Hemingway. What do you think has really been going on behind the scenes between Project 2025 and the Trump people? I think the Trump people really wanted the Project 2025 people to shut the hell up, right? They did this all publicly as a way to raise money for the Heritage Foundation and raise the relevance of the

Heritage Foundation, a group that was very dominant for a long time in Republican politics and sort of fell out of favor for a long time. And they want all the work. They want the lists. They want the ideas. They just don't want the bad press. And this is something that had been getting a ton of attention. Democrats were utilizing it very well.

And so they wanted these people to shut up. Now, it's important to note that Donald Trump is the official nominee of the Republican Party. Next, in a couple weeks, Kamala Harris will be the official nominee of the Democratic Party. And what that will mean is that the federally funded transition operations will begin. So they don't need Project 2025 in two weeks to staff the government with all these apparatchiks. They can do do it. They're going to, taxpayer dollars will be helping them do it by Labor Day. It's interesting when you said that, I thought, oh, now we're going to know,

like the transition is going to get staffed with people who were part of Project 2025. Like that is inevitable. Yeah, yeah. It won't be the people who are the head of it, obviously. No, because they want to be careful. But like, it's going to become obvious pretty soon

that of course the Trump campaign embraces both the people and the ideas of Project 2025. Obviously, of course, they're going to become obvious pretty soon that, of course, the Trump campaign embraces both the people and the ideas of Project 2025. Obviously. Of course, they're going to do it. There's not even a question in my mind. There is no question in my mind that were Trump to win the White House, Project 2025 will be their 100-day, their 200-day, their 300-day, their first term plan. Right? That is what they're going to do.

And the people on that list are going to be working in that government. Because do you think that Trump people are out there just really combing through for him again. A whole bunch of other people who probably have legal bills from the last Trump administration. Like, they don't have a lot of choices. So, of course, that's how they're going to staff their government. And the idea that, because, you know, you talk about sort of the Democratic strategy moving forward on Project 2025. The idea that Donald Trump is somehow separate from these ideas or doesn't embrace most of these ideas. Donald Trump is somehow separate from these ideas or doesn't embrace most of these ideas. Like he's already come out for eliminating the Department of Education, rolling back all of Joe Biden's environmental regulations, getting rid of most of the nonpolitical appointees in the federal government to replace them with MAGA loyalists. He included Medicare and Social Security cuts in every single budget he proposed every year he was president. Like all of this stuff he's already agreed to, you know? And so I don't know. Is there anything

else that you think Democrats should do going forward on this? I think we never stop talking about it. We keep pushing. We do not take no for an answer here, right? This is their agenda. I would start joking too about Donald Trump saying things like, I know nothing about Project 2025. I think some of the points are fine. Some of them I disagree with. I've never read the document. I think some of the points are good. I have no idea who's behind it. More than 200 people who used to work for me run it. There's a mocking there that I think is important because some people will think, oh, well, he's disavowed Project 2025. He says he has nothing to do with it. And I think it's important to remind people that he's full of shit. There was plenty of great mainstream press coverage of Project 2025. The press did a very good job of it. Really good job. But the reason why it broke through was people took it online and started creating their own content about it. It really was like we are now living in a, you know, brat summer, coconut pilled abundance of pro Kamala anti-Trump media.

But the one success we had prior to the change in candidacy was a lot of people made some great videos and content about Project 2025 that really scared the shit out of a lot of people and they got shared. And so you can do continue. We should continue to do that. And so you can do continue, we should continue to do that. There's, I mean, these are, you know, Cheesecake Factory menus lists of bad policies that we can continue to do and people should keep doing and pushing it out there. Because then you're, if you're trying to litigate this in the free press, like what the Trump people accomplished here is getting the, you know, you can see the debate where the moderator says to Kamala Harris, but the Trump campaign, but the project has ended, right? Or in a press conference or an interview that she is doing, not an interview here, an interview with more credulous mainstream media. But on social media, continue to educate people about it because you are in the correct, you are in the right if you are pushing this out there and explaining to people what it is, because that is the Trump agenda, whether they disavow this staffing plan or not. All right. We are down to the final few days until VP Harris selects a VP of her own.

As a reminder, the reporting is that she's going to do a rally on Tuesday, introducing her running mate. That rally is in Philadelphia, stoking a lot of speculation that the pick would be Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. The campaign said not to read too much into the location. But then today, NBC News reported that Shapiro had canceled some fundraisers that were scheduled for this weekend. And Shapiro's folks confirmed that. They also reported that Shapiro met with some fundraisers that were scheduled for this weekend. And Shapiro's folks confirmed that.

They also reported that Shapiro met with Harris's vetting team on Wednesday. Harris wasn't there, apparently. But reportedly, the vetting team had very similar meetings with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. How much do you read into all the signs that are pointing towards Shapiro? Do not read anything into the signs. There are no clues. I think it's helpful for you and I to explain how this worked when Barack Obama picked Joe Biden. We were in the know. We were seniorish staffers on that campaign. Up until hours before the announcement, your team was writing three different speeches. You wrote it might be Joe Biden. And then someone else wrote the Evan Bayh speech and someone else wrote the Tim Kaine speech. And I think that I edited the Tim Kaine speech. I don't even think I looked at the Evan Bayh speech.

I was like, he's not picking Evan Bayh. But so I like had a sense that it was Joe Biden, but you're right. That was all I knew. And we had to do three speeches. We had three communications plans. There were three sets of signs that were made. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this idea that, because it's the most closely held secret in the entire campaign, I'm sure the campaign wants to tell their supporters before anyone else knows.

So the idea that the advance team knows it's Josh Shapiro, so they booked a rally in Pennsylvania, The advance team knows it's Josh Shapiro, so they booked a rally in Pennsylvania. That is not it. The reason the rally is in Pennsylvania is because Pennsylvania is the most important state for Kamala Harris and Donald Trump to get to 270. And it's the closest to Washington, D.C. and Wilmington where the campaign is. And so if you're doing a battleground state tour, it makes sense just logistically to start in Philly. That's so funny you say that.

It had not occurred to me until now that the campaign is still in Wilmington, Delaware, even though Kamala Harris is from Oakland, which is so- I know. I mean, I love my home city, but it's just- I think it's, I've heard that it's split. Like there's some people who are working out of DC and there's some people who are still working out of Wilmington. So we'll see.

And this idea, Josh Shapiro may be canceling his fundraisers because he's probably been told, as have the other finalists, to keep their weekends open for some sort of secret meeting with Kamala Harris. They're not going to – she's not going to pick someone she has not sat down with. And the other thing you mentioned about the fundraiser – about donors or campaign fundraisers telling people that they should give now because there are certain laws about people who do business with the state giving for governors the fundraisers also don't know right no one knows no one would tell a fucking fundraiser yeah if the if the fun

here's the thing if the fundraiser knows you know right yeah the fundraiser knows failure and so i don't know that she i she probably has not made her decision yet she apparently hasn't met with the with the finalists yet the she probably has an idea the people she was thinking like i obama clearly was very much leading towards joe biden when he i think when he did those final meetings with the folks but it's probably comal harris jenna malley dylan one or two other people over on her closest team who have any sense of where her head is on this. And so all the clues are fake. It's all just noise.

So some lefty groups like the Democratic Socialists of America and the Uncommitted Movement are making it known that they would not be happy with Shapiro on the ticket, mainly because they think the Jewish governor is too pro-Israel, even though he's called Netanyahu one of the worst leaders of all time, and notably has taken positions on Gaza that are no different than any of the other VP contenders. What do you think about that? I think it makes me deeply uncomfortable that you would have that position specifically for Governor Shapiro. Yeah, who's the only one who's Jewish. Yeah. And even beyond that, just for people's understanding, what matters here is Kamala Harris's position. Right. Right. And just to give you an example from our life, Barack Obama's signature issue was his opposition to the Iraq War.

Joe Biden voted for the Iraq War and was a longtime defender of the Iraq War and became Barack Obama's running mate and became then an advocate for Barack Obama's position for ending the Iraq war, right? His position for he to be the VP nominee will be what her position is. And so if you're comfortable with her position, and you may not be, right? And you may want to push her to change or whatever else, but her position is a dominant position here on this issue and every other issue. And guess what? Kamala Harris, who's now getting attacked for positions she took in 2019 and 2020 in that primary, all of her positions are changed now because they were changed when she got to the White House because her positions were Joe Biden's positions. Yeah. That's just what you said. That's what happens with the VP. And if Josh Shapiro serves in this White House, his positions are going to be Kamala Harris's positions. Aside from that, the reason that Josh Shapiro keeps getting mentioned and he keeps popping up at the top of the list is like the guy has a 60 approval rating in pennsylvania he has won elections there

by a good deal he outran john fetterman in 2022 now of course he was running against doug mastriano who is somehow even a worse candidate than dr oz but he is wildly popular in Pennsylvania. And there was a Fox poll, I believe last week that tested what if it was Shapiro versus Trump in Pennsylvania, and it had him winning by 10 points. And I haven't seen any polling yet that tests how would Harris Shapiro fare against Trump Vance in Pennsylvania and like, would it make a difference on the ticket? So I haven't seen that polling yet, but and like, would it make a difference on the ticket? So I haven't seen that polling yet, but if it, if it helps a few points and everything

else checks out well with Josh Shapiro and Pennsylvania is the tipping point state in this election, the most important state to win, you could see why she would want to go for Josh Shapiro. Yeah. I mean, they're, the polling is a little, I'm like hypothetical polling is always a little sketchy. I have seen polling that asks people, Pennsylvania voters, would you be more or less likely to vote for Kamala Harris if Josh Shapiro was on the ticket? I've seen similar question for Mark Kelly in Arizona.

A lot of Pennsylvanians are more likely – most of them will say it makes no difference. A majority will say it makes no difference. Some of them will say more and a tiny percentage will say yes. So yeah, we'll say it makes them less likely to vote. But the problem with that polling is you, the sample sizes aren't good enough to know are the people who are saying more likely people were voting for Kamala Harris anyway. Right. So you don't really know whether it's Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly in Arizona, history shows in the end with all of these things, there's a very small sample size issue, but generally in the past, one to two points is what you can expect.

It's considered the home state advantage. That has gone down in recent years as American politicians have gotten more polarized and more nationalized. But over the past, the home state advantage is greatly overstated, but Pennsylvania is probably gonna be decided by two points. So when was the last time there was a VP on the ticket who was from a very competitive state that, that Paul Ryan in Wisconsin, I was, no,

I was going to say who, who had, who was a statewide official, right? Because Paul Ryan in Wisconsin, it's like he had a district there and I'm sure people in Wisconsin know him, but he didn't, he, he wasn't a statewide official, right? Because Paul Ryan in Wisconsin, it's like he had a district there and I'm sure people in Wisconsin know him, but he wasn't a statewide official in Wisconsin.

Was it Gore in Tennessee? Although Tennessee back in what, in 1992, that wasn't like a make or break state, was it? Clinton won it easily in 92 and 96. But Gore obviously famously lost it in 2000. So in some cases, the home state advantage doesn't work. I think Paul Ryan is the closest approximation because he's not a random congressman. He was a national figure with name ID sort of akin to a statewide elected official,

but it's been a long time. The way they measure this generally is not in a battleground. It doesn't have to be a battleground state. How what – how did the state perform compared to how the candidates perform nationally, right? Because it's a baseline. And so it's like Biden did – Obama did a point or two better in Delaware than he otherwise would have done based on – but it's all very hard to disentangle what it means. And so I think the thing is it's not – it does not – picking Shapiro does not guarantee Pennsylvania. It may help. It may. And then you say the same thing about Mark Kelly in Arizona.

It may help, but if it does help, it's only going to help a little. Right. I think that's right. And so I think the end of the day, if you're Kamala Harris, you want someone, first of all, you want someone who can govern, right? Like a lot of these candidates and Barack Obama thought this too, which is like, I want to pick someone who, if something happens to me, then like, I feel they are ready on day one, like Trump could not say about JD Vance. And then you want someone that

you like vibe with on the campaign trail, someone that you know, someone that you trust, right? And so, you know, we can make all the political calculations and I'm sure the Harris campaign is doing that as well, but she's got to feel comfortable with this person. And so what do you think about sort of the other contenders? I think, like you said, Kelly would potentially help with Arizona a little bit, which is a key state, not as key as Pennsylvania, not as many electoral votes. And she's probably behind there by more than she is in Pennsylvania. So that's something to consider. And then you've got Tim Walz, who it would be someone that you'd pick because he makes a great argument. He's great

on TV and could go to some of those Midwestern states and probably do well campaigning. I think Pete Buttigieg, excellent communicator, one of the best messengers in the party, also says nothing says future than harris and pete on the ticket together so what do you think about some of the other possibilities i actually think they're all great yeah they really are i'm actually would not be disappointed there's not a bad choice in the group yeah i didn't have strong feelings about tim walls uh but then i listened to the interview with love and he was awesome and it did remind me that this will also date myself.

Back in 2006, campaign ads didn't go viral back then because no way for them to go viral. But Tim Walls had an introductory ad that was based on his time as a football coach for his congressional run 2006. It was one that everyone in town talked about and thought was like the best ad of the cycle, which I looked for at least seven minutes on YouTube and I could not find, but Tim Walls is, he hasn't got a great story. He's a great candidate. The internet has fallen in love with Tim Walls. Like he is, he is, there was a lot of Tim Walls on TikTok these days. Um, I mean, Kelly, it has, obviously it's gravitas, military experience, astronaut, Gabby Giffords, you know, um, you know, I think provides some ideological moderation

and how he's sort of seen as a moderate, um, tough on the border. He's definitely like on paper, like the most impressive resume. Right. But then the question is, you know, we've seen a bunch of people who are on paper really good. It doesn't pan out, but on, on paper, I think you're right. Like an astronaut who uh was in the military and i mean let's yeah and he's had two tough right two really tough races two high profile sub races shapiro has not had a tough race right that's because because doug mastriano kook yeah um and then general races his attorney general races which was statewide yeah but it's not he hasn't he hasn't had a lot of money spent against him.

So we don't. Kelly's been in the crucible. And so you can have some, that gives you, like there, it's hard to compare a Senate race to a presidential race, but at least you see he's had some things. The other thing is it's Susan. I talked about the Susan Rice when I talked to her for last week's pod is all that stuff is interesting, but the president, the vice president have lunch together once a week. And so you really do have to like, think about this. If you have to pick someone, like imagine you're hiring someone for your company and they're like, you're like, I'm going to have to have lunch with this person once a week for the next 48

years. Like you really got to like the person for that. You really got to think it's been interesting, useful conversation. And honestly, honestly, that's why I hired love it to be the speechwriter in the white house. Cause I was like, he did the interviews. There's a lot of good candidates, a lot of good speeches. But at the end of the day, I was sitting there at Starbucks and he's making me laugh. And I'm like, I think I could hang out with this guy.

15 years later, you're still eating lunch together. If only I could go back. Just kidding. Just kidding. Love it. Yeah, no, I agree. And also, she knows Josh Shapiro because they were AGs together, the same class of AGs, and same thing with Bashir. We haven't talked about Bashir, but Andy Bashir is also that class of attorneys general. So some of these personal relationships probably matter as well. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see if it leaks. The event's going to be Tuesday, so it might really hoping it leaks uh before we record on monday but who knows we have really gotten lucky with some um i know i

just news recently so i think that this one is definitely you're gonna put that put that pot in the can and then it's it's gonna it's gonna pop right out yeah probably all right uh before we go the election cycle is ramping up and if that feels like being trapped in a boeing that's already lost a wheel but still speeding down the runway we we're here to help. Every week, we're cutting through the noise with honest, open, sanity-preserving conversations about what's at stake. We're talking abortion, healthcare, immigration, taxes, Supreme Court positions, and so much more. Want to be proactive, but don't know where to start? Consider subscribing to Pod Save America. And if you're already subscribed, let's take it a step further. Share an episode

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