Pod Save America - Trump's Flailing Goon Squad

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

After promising 90 trade deals in 90 days and delivering only two, President Trump delays his arbitrary tariff deadline yet again. A former Trump Justice Department lawyer files a whistleblower complaint detailing the administration's efforts to defy court orders. MAGA's rift over Jeffrey Epstein deepens as Tucker Carlson, Andrew Schulz, and Candace Owens join the revolt. Jon and MSNBC's Alex Wagner break down all the latest, including the administration's absurd new investigation into former FBI Director James Comey, Kristi Noem's struggle to balance her job with posting on Instagram, and Twitter's self-proclaimed "MechaHitler" AI—and the prompt resignation of its CEO. Then Ana Ramon, Executive Director of the Texas Leadership Pipeline, joins to share her hopes for the future of the Lone Star State and why running for office—even in deep-red communities—isn't as scary as it seems. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

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and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash crooked to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash crooked. MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of The Briefing. We've never experienced a moment like this in our country, and at least it's all with a choice.

Are we gonna speak out, or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents, I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. We don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through Friday at 9 p.m. Eastern on MSNBC. ["Pod Save America Theme Song"] Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau. It's Dan's turn to be on vacation. So with me today, my good pal Alex Wagner, MSNBC senior political analyst. It's so good to see you. I've never heard the phrase, senior political analyst sounds so exciting. Thank you for having me on this fantastic podcast, Jon. I'm thrilled to be Dan's vacation sub. Thrilled to have you. Thrilled to have you. We had a big show for you today. We got a

Trump whistleblower on deportations, Magoworld still angry about the Epstein files, FEMA officials criticizing Kristi Noem over the Texas flooding response, Democrats worrying about the midterms. Then I talked to Ana Ramon, an outstanding organizer whose group is working with Vote Save America to help recruit candidates to run for office in Texas. So stick around for that interview later. But Alex, let's start with Donald Trump's global trade war. It's back and it's dumber than ever. You might remember this line from Trump trade advisor, Peter Navarro, who White House colleagues

have called dumber than a sack of bricks. We're going to run 90 deals in 90 days. Alex, we are recording this on day 90, and I regret to inform you that the number of trade deals stands at two. The UK and Vietnam. That's not 90. That's not 90. That's not 90. Nope, not even close.

Trump has, of course, decided to buy himself more time by pushing back the deadline yet again to August 1st, a date that everyone believes he'll stick to. In the meantime, Trump spent the week threatening at least 22 countries with higher tariffs via letters that read like the president's truth social posts, complete with an abundance of capitalizations and exclamations.

Except they were on White House letterhead. The tariff threats went to countries we already have trade deals with like South Korea. There's a free trade deal with South Korea so there's already zero tariffs between both countries and countries we have a trade surplus with like Brazil which Trump threatened with 50% tariffs in part because he says he's upset that former president Bolsonaro is facing a trial for attempting a coup. Obviously Trump's not big on people getting charged with trying to incite a coup. If you're wondering whether there's a method to all this madness, this clip of Trump speaking

about tariffs at a meeting with African leaders this week should clear things up. Sir, can you explain how you calculated your latest round of tariffs? Was there a formula that was used? And do you expect any of these countries to face tariffs as well? The formula was a formula based on common sense, based on deficits, based on how we've been treated

over the years, and based on raw numbers. been treated over the years and based on raw numbers. Do you expect any of the countries here to face tariffs as well? I haven't thought of it, but maybe, I don't know, let's see, I like him, him, him, him, and him. No, I don't think so, not too much. He's very good, he's a friend of mine now.

It's a rigorous process, Alex, rigorous. Definitely, that is the highest standards. The highest standards. So the markets have recovered since Trump retreated from his Liberation Day tariffs. Prices on some imports have risen, but nothing drastic, although we've actually lost manufacturing jobs so that part of the promise of tariffs has not come true. Trump's approval on the economy and especially trade has taken a hit, but his overall ratings aren't too much lower. What do you make of the White House decision

or Trump's decision to restart this trade war right now? Well, I think, you know, numerically, they can still get the just the basic counting correct. Like 89 comes before 90. So there's that, right? They'd set this arbitrary deadline of 90 deals in 90 days. It was day 89. They had to do something. But like John, it's the most foolish clownish endeavor ever. I mean, you focus on some of these countries

that we have trade surpluses with. I mean, I know that Burma, Myanmar, where my mom is from is on the list with maybe a 40% tariff. For anybody that's been following even the scantest of news about Burma, there's a civil war going on, there's millions of displaced people there, tens of thousands dead, the annual per capita income is $1,200 a year.

Like the idea that we're gonna launch a trade war The annual per capita income is $1,200 a year. The idea that we're gonna launch a trade war with Burma is not only stupid, but craven. In the same way that Trump's talking about needing Vietnam to buy more American SUVs in a country that has insanely narrow roads and where the average per capita income is like $4,000 a year.

There is no sense, there is no actual economic strategy that undergirds this. It's like literally, I don't know, there's the human facts person that he employs at the White House. There's someone standing at the copy machine just like firing off the tariff letters with arbitrary numbers plugged in.

And the worst part about it, I mean, I honestly think the thing that most hurts Trump is that everybody's on to him. You know, like the taco thing Trump always chickens out, I think is for Trump the most humiliating piece of all of this, which is the market saying like, screw you, dude, like, this is why we didn't see market panic this time is because they're they get it. This is his game. This is his shtick. It's August 1, then it'll be September 15, then it'll be November 9, or whatever the fuck it's gonna be.

But all of this is so arbitrary and ill-conceived it makes Herbalife look like some brilliant marketing scheme. Do you know what I mean? Like there's just, there is, I don't even know how it ends. Like maybe someone gets hit with a tariff at some point, but the idea that we're restructuring a trade imbalance in the course of, you know, even a couple months is a laughable concept. All this stuff takes years to hammer out. And if he had just stuck with, oh, I don't know, the TPP, which was not hammered out by his administration, but he unwound, we would be in a much better place. But I mean, what is what is actual, you know, economic policy really matter when you can just, you can just have fun at the Xerox machine, like, I don't know, Xeroxing your butt

and making a bunch of letters, which is apparently what's happening. You're just freelancing. Apparently the new numbers that they sent to all these countries, they are sort of like the Liberation Day numbers, but they're like off by one or 2% for no apparent reason in different

countries. Like they just sort of like rounded up or down just based on whatever. And then of course there's, you know, the idea that he's doing 50 percent tariffs on Brazil because he's just pissed that they're holding a former leader accountable. So there's just no rhyme or reason to it. I mean, as it is now, we're already at like, I think we have like an average tariff rate of like 17 and a half percent in the United States with all of our trading partners,

with the rest of the world, if you average all the countries together. And that's higher than it's been at any time since the 30s, I think. And I think people, certainly the market's calmed down because he walked a lot of this back, but some of the price increases, like, they're not going to take effect until, like, a bunch of

importers rushed to import a bunch of goods before some of these tariffs went into effect. So we're still going to, like, it's not showing up in the economic data yet, but that doesn't mean that we're out of the woods, even if he doesn't impose any new tariffs and keeps kicking the can down the road. But I don't know, I mean, you're right about the taco thing. Like I think it's humiliating enough to him that I also wonder if he's not gonna be like, fuck it, I don't wanna be called that again. I'm just gonna hit them all the tariffs.

The taco thing on so many levels is like his kryptonite, right? Because it goes right to his ego and the idea that Wall Street, which he is, you know, is obsessed with, would think he's a clown, is enough to motivate someone like Trump to do something totally reckless. And that's, I think, it's both, you know,

sort of delicious to see some, you know, a group of, you know, Wall Street's finest just embarrass him. But it's also a little terrifying because when he is in that position, he tends to do even more unusually foolish and foolhardy and reckless things. So I don't know where Harold,

I don't know where Harold goes. Which by the way also is why I don't love Democrats like doing the taco thing as a joke and like continuing to put it because- You're like, watch out guys, watch out, watch out. Yeah, I guess politically, right, if he goes and crashes the economy, that's really politically bad for him.

But do we really wanna live through a global trade war that sends prices skyrocketing? I don't think most people do in this country. Right, well then, yeah. On the Iran thing, I think Chuck Schumer was like, he taco'd on Iran, it's like think most people do in this country. Right, well that is, yeah. On the Iran thing, I think Chuck Schumer was like, he taco'd on Iran, it's like, well then he bombed Iran. So I mean, are we happy now? It's like.

Yeah, be careful with the taco, it may come for you next. Yeah, so we'll see though. I mean, we can't predict these things because who the fuck knows, and he keeps kicking the deadlines back, but I do think that one of these days soon, he's gonna snap and say, no, we're going with tariffs. Yeah, I mean, let's hope it's not,

I mean, and it'll be interesting to see which country it is, right? I mean, there are people that are negotiating in earnest, right, the EU is, there is movement happening behind the scenes, and if we're lucky, the sort of net-net of all of this is that one of those real actual substantive negotiations comes through and he can point to it as an example

of his reset and then move on and say, I'm not a taco. Like, look what I did with the EU, you're welcome, bye. And that is where it ends. But who knows with him? I mean, look out Myanmar, like you may get a 40% tariff in the middle of your civil war. That's, I just obviously find that particularly galling.

But so many things- And by the way, one more drawback to TACO, I hate that I fucking keep saying this, but is that these countries, they don't really have an, like some of them haven't reached out to negotiate because they don't have an incentive to do that because a lot of them don't believe him

because he keeps backing off. So even from his perspective, he's not going to get the deals he wants to get or have the leverage that he wants to have, because a lot of these countries just aren't taking him or us seriously, which I completely understand. I mean, I think, and also the taco narrative, I'm sorry, we've just got to keep talking about it, I've got to keep saying it, is a play,

I mean, it is being used liberally in this moment, but it is something to pay attention to because it is also a placeholder for so much of his attitude towards so many different things, right? Like this idea that he'll say one thing, whether it's prosecuting political enemies or whether it's financial trade matter, economic and trade matters, there is so much bluster,

there's so much threatening behavior at all times because that's effectively the only strategy he knows how to run. You know, I think this is an interesting development in that because if that is taken out of Trump's quiver, if he is, you know, if that arrow is taken out of his quiver and it's, you know, he's widely seen as, you know, if it is an emperor has no clothes moment,

it sort of does beg the question of like, okay, well, what happens next on a host of other, you know, if it is an emperor has no clothes moment, it sort of does beg the question of like, okay, well, what happens next on a host of other, you know, in a host of other areas where Trump's threats are his only and essential negotiating tools? I don't know. But it is, in that way, I think it's more meaningful than just the sort of like, tariff Xeroxes that are being circulated around the world. POTS of America is brought to you by Zbiotics Pre-Alcohol. Got to tell you about this game-changing product I use for every night out with drinks. It's called Pre-Alcohol. Zbiotics Pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough

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Drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great and ready to take on the next day and all summer has to offer. Go to zbiotics.com slash crooked to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code crooked at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money and no questions asked remember head to zbiotics.com slash crooked and use the code crooked at checkout for 15% off. All right lots of news this week on Stephen Miller's quest to live out his

teenage fantasy of deporting people who don't look like him. He got some bad news from a federal judge in New Hampshire on Thursday who issued a nationwide injunction blocking Trump's decree that being born in America no longer makes you a citizen. You might remember the Supreme Court recently limited lower court judges ability to issue nationwide injunctions, but they did carve out an exception for class action lawsuits, which is exactly what the ACLU did in this case, and it worked. Now we wait to see what the Supreme Court says about the constitutionality of ending birthright citizenship and whether the Trump administration will abide

by their ruling since they don't seem to think they really have to with some of these rulings. We got more evidence for that thanks to a new whistleblower report from Erez Rouveni, a 15-year veteran of the Department of Justice who defended some of the first Trump administration's most controversial immigration decisions in court, including the travel ban. So not a Lib, not a Rhino. This guy was a DOJ career guy who defended the Trump administration in the first administration, a lot of their

immigration stuff. But he says that back in March, top Trump personal lawyer turned Deputy Attorney General Emil Bové, who's waiting to be confirmed by the Senate for a lifetime appellate judgeship, said in a meeting that the Department of Justice, quote, would need to consider telling the courts, fuck you, and defy a court order blocking Trump from using the Alien Enemies Act to send

Venezuelans to the foreign gulag in El Salvador, CICOT. Rouveny also claims that another Trump DOJ lawyer, Drew Ensign, lied to a federal judge when asked whether he knew if planes of migrants were about to take off for El Salvador. Rouveny has texts, emails, and other documents to back up his claims. So Trump administration's obviously trying to discredit this guy. How well do you think that's going to go? And could Erez Rouveny be a problem for the White House? First of all, this whistleblower report is just like confirms everything you imagine is happening in the DOJ, right?

Like, why don't we just submit an emoji of the middle fingers, our response to this filing that's like literally from the documents. It's like a bunch of guys sitting around. I mean, these guys are saying it, I think, as has been characterized as gallows humor, right? They're like, this is so fucking depressing that we're saying fuck you to the courts. But the general climate inside of the DOJ appears to be one of complete impunity, like, and sort of like joking about the rule of law at the Department of Justice. We should just never get past the sort of the fundamental allegations and this was a whistleblowing report. But I mean,

I think it's a problem for Meal Bovie and his confirmation to be at the second, you know, the feeder to the Supreme Court. Like as absurd as it would be, I think Trump is genuinely thinking about Emil Bové becoming a Supreme Court justice if he's trying to put him on an appeals appeals court seat. And I think, you know, look, it's hard to say whether or not it's going to be a problem for the White House. I mean, I do think there is a sense that in Maggaland you do whatever the president asks of you no matter what. And there as I'm sure we'll talk about, there's a real lust for deportations in any form or

fashion extrajudicial or not. Like, and if you're not falling in line with those deportations, no matter what the circumstances, then you gotta get tossed out on your ass. And like, whether this costs Trump anything with his base, I think is, I mean, I think it probably doesn't, right? It should cost him with the broader American public, but I don't know, like, there are so many things

that we deal with on a daily basis. Does one whistleblower do it? I think legally though, it could be a problem for him, right? I think that there is the court of law that will not look kindly into these allegations, especially given the reality of these deportations and how Trump is trying to break the law there. So this is further fuel for that fire. And I will say, John, you know, there's, it's an interesting thing, right? During Trump one, there was a feeling that like, Trump mistakenly hired these semi principled people

who acted as guardrails and like, oh, in Trump two, it's like the worst of the worst. And the entire system is populated by Neanderthals who will just do whatever he says. And moments like this just offer a little bit of hope that there are still people who don't think of themselves as partisans, don't think of themselves as gatekeepers for democracy or institutional atlases holding up the entire firmament, but that still absolutely recognize, even though they may be diehard kind of conservatives, that you can't do certain things. And I think we should hold on to that, that there are still people inside the system who can understand right from wrong.

And if they are, if I think people who care about that can help protect this person's integrity, assuming he deserves it and this is all true, then that hopefully will encourage more people to do the right thing, even though they may be subsumed in the Trump swamp. I mean, I found it really heartening that there's a whistleblower right now who's saying like, this is fucking unacceptable.

And here are all the text messages that prove the way in which these guys knew that they were breaking the law and flouting it and doing whatever they needed to do to just get people that they don't like out of the country. Yeah, I think there's two ways it can be a problem for the Trump White House. One is Boves confirmation, right? And we're going to talk about Tom Tillerson a bit, and he did an interview with Jake Tapper, where he's suddenly courageous now that he's retiring.

But he was asked about Boves, and he was like, yeah, and, but he did, he was, he was asked about Boves and he was like, yeah, yeah, I'll probably, I'll probably confirm him. Now this was before this all broke today. So we'll, maybe Tillis' mind will be changed and maybe he won't have enough votes. But Rouvenet said he would testify before Congress, testify in court. So this guy's willing to do whatever. But I do think in some of these legal cases, especially

like, you know, the Supreme Court has not yet decided the constitutionality of the Alien Enemies Act, right? And Trump using that in the first place. Like there are still so many questions around deportations, even though it seems like the Supreme Court has issued many rulings around the deportations now. There's still a lot of big questions that they haven't answered yet. And this guy, Rouvenet, I should have said, the reason he got fired was because he's the one who admitted in a court filing to a federal judge that they made a mistake in deporting Abrego Garcia, Kilmar Abrego Garcia

to Seacat in the first place. So this guy was there for turn the planes around when they were going, and then he was there for, this was a mistake, and you know, he gives this interview to the New York Times, and he's like, look, the reason this is important is they sent 248 people to Seacat, and we have no idea where these people are right now,

whether they're alive, whether they've been tortured, like Abrego Garcia claims he was when he was there. There was no due process and we now know from this whistleblower and from a bunch of other evidence that A, they knew that the judge and that the courts didn't want them to send these plans. They sent them anyway. So they sent a bunch of people to a, to a foreign gulag, uh, in defiance of court orders, knowing that, uh, the court didn't want it and saying, yeah, we're maybe we're just going to say, fuck you anyway.

And then when they found out that they mistakenly sent someone, they've just fired the guy who just told the truth about that. I mean, when you think about like being that person, right. Or, or, or being being that person, right? Or being Andre Ramirez, right? Or being any of the people whose names we don't know, her and CICOT, who like, could they be Trendy Ragwa? Yeah, some of them.

Could they be really bad people? Yeah, some of them, but like, some of them seem like they're completely fucking innocent. Well, and you put that, you put the whistleblower's account, right? And his sense of alarm about what's happening to people in this country together with the viral videos that now exist of people just being snatched at court or snatched in parking lots and in the most violent, terrifying fashion by masked ICE agents in unmarked cars.

That does not look like a study in a well-oiled deportation machine. It looks like vigilante justice. It looks like dragnets. It looks insanely haphazard and maybe illegal. And then you couple that with the alarm that's happening inside the Department of Justice where they're processing these deportations and, you know, dealing with the courts and actually getting people out of the country. You have someone saying, this is really wrong and we don't know what we're doing and you shouldn't be doing that.

I mean, I think those two things collectively could create a problem for the Trump administration because you have the combination of like the American public bearing witness to what's happening in their cities and towns across the country. And then this coming from inside Washington and it's not just a local story,

it's not just a DC story, it's the two things together and I think that makes it more resonant. And by the way, even if the Department of Justice still has, you know, hundreds of Erez Rubenis there who are willing to speak up, the challenge now is ICE is going to have a bigger budget than the FBI and it's going to be the biggest law enforcement agency in the country. And the standards for training and recruiting for ICE are much, much lower than the FBI agents who spend, you know, weeks and weeks in Quantico and have graduate degrees and go through all these. Like it is, we're headed for a really dark place now.

Yeah. I will just say, even with a bigger budget, I'll say nothing of the actual employees, but even with a bigger budget, the fact of the matter is you're not going to get 3,000 Trenda Agua gang members every day. You're going to always have to grab people at Home Depot. You're going to always have to find hotel workers and farm workers. I mean, you cannot get the numbers that they have set out, Stephen Miller has set out, without going after those people. And legal residents. Exactly. they have set out, Stephen Miller has set out, without going after those people. So...

And legal residents. Exactly. And, and, and you're just going to, honestly, with more budget and less trained people, you're probably going to have more of these videos and more of these things happening and more coverage of these violent sort of raids and seizures of people who may be here with the right papers. So, I mean, I think it, I mean, it's not good news for people who are getting deported. But in terms of the story really having legs and the situation becoming measurably, palpably worse, and therefore resonant and affecting to the American public,

I think it will be. Yeah. There's a, there's a DACA recipient in Alligator Alcatraz right now. Miami Herald just reported today. So worst of the worst, but it's a DACA recipient who absolutely has a right to be here. And that's, I mean, that's why Democrats need to champion the stories of the people that are getting snapped up in this stuff. I mean, that's where the storytelling really matters

because Trump has painted everyone with a very broad brush. And until you can say that person's name and where they went to school or what their story is I don't I mean I think there there there have the sense of tragedy needs to be piercing because right now I think it's just kind of a more abstract horror at what's unfolding but I think you know there needs to be a little bit more personal investment in like the the trials of these people who are, whose lives are being upended by all of this. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Miller's immigration purge is running into other problems thanks to Trump's agriculture

secretary, Brooke Rollins, and prominent Trump supporters like Joe Rogan, who apparently had dinner with the president last week. On last episode, we played a clip of Rogan talking about how I thought it was supposed to be criminals and now they're deporting all these farm workers in the Home Depot raids and all that. And apparently he had dinner with Trump.

And basically what's happening is, is Rollins, the ag secretary and Rogan types keep getting Trump to promise that he'll exempt undocumented farm workers and perhaps hospitality workers, uh, from deportation. And then after he makes that promise on truth social or says he's going to do work permits or whatever else, people like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon get really pissed and Trump changes his mind again. So do you think this immigration split in Trump's coalition is meaningful at all or do you

think it will keep getting this back and forth, or do the Millers and Bannons just went out? I'm interested in this. I think that, I mean, look, I'm very interested in the fracture that's forming within Trump's base. Like, the center can't really hold between, you know, the sort of, the big, beautiful bill that is the largest, most significant redistribution of wealth

in a generation and pushes it upwards at the expense of the poor and the working class, many of whom are in Trump's base, to the immigration stuff, which pits wealthy business owners against MAGA nativists who want to see, you know, who probably believe in many ways, or in many corners, in great replacement theory, ideas about, you know, white supremacy being encroached upon by brown people. I mean, these are deeply held ideals and beliefs on either side of the Trump coalition, and I, you know, I think it's a real stress test. And on the immigration stuff, like the tax stuff,

he can just hope that because the worst cuts don't happen until after the midterms, that he can sort of like blame the Democrats. So maybe there's a reprieve there in terms of like being able to stitch the coalition together on it for a little bit longer than might otherwise be the case. But on the immigration stuff, like we were just talking about,

you cannot do what the MAGA base wants, which is the excision of some significant part of this country from the economy and from the fabric of our democracy without going after the gardeners and the Home Depot people and the hotel workers. Just the math does not work. And I know math is not Donald Trump's strong suit, John, as we discussed at the top of the show. But I mean, the 3,000 deportations a day figure is popular knowledge at this point,

and they seem very intent on managing it. One thing I don't think you can do is keep teasing reprieves and then not delivering. I mean, people are going to go to, that, they're gonna, you know, that debt is gonna get called in at some point and it's gonna start to affect actual industry. So I do think that this is a real problem for him and I have no idea how he navigates it because he constantly talks out of both sides of his mouth

and this is one of those things where it's like, the rubber's literally meeting the road. I mean, every passing day exacerbates the tension between, you know between business and MAGA. And there's literally, they are diametrically opposed, and therefore, I don't know how you square that circle. Well, and to your point about, it's why when we were just talking about

the deportations to CICOT and everything, making sure that we're telling these stories is gonna be important because of the deportations to, you know, see caught and everything. Making sure that we're telling these stories is going to be important because of the debt coming due, as you, as you mentioned, right? Like Joe Joe Rogan has dinner with Donald Trump. Donald Trump says, oh yeah, we're going to protect the farm workers. No problem. And then Joe Rogan sees a video of a bunch of farm workers getting rounded up and deported or hotel workers or whoever.

And what does he think he's going to do that? You think Joe Rogan is just going to be like, oh, I must've been mistaken. I'm sure he was going to get, like, he's going to get criticism from a lot of people who supported him. And, you know, you're starting to see these cases we've already seen over the last several months where there'll be deportations and people getting rounded up, people with legal status, in like deep red areas, right? And in these, like that woman who was in that rural Missouri county, who everyone is like, oh, she's been a part of our community for decades. And, you know, they finally released her.

But I think it's starting to make even hardcore Trump supporters, or at least people who voted for him, you know, a couple times, think like, hmm, I thought only the bad ones were getting deported. Right, exactly. I mean, this is, yeah, that's the thing, is people know these people. And I think with so much in Trump land,

he can get away with these generalities about the libs or whatever, but these touch people in their backyards and at their diners and, you know, like in their ordinary everyday American lives, and you can't escape that reality. So the president has another problem with his MAGA base that's less consequential to the country,

but possibly more consequential to his political standing, and certainly way more fun to talk about the case of the missing Epstein files. So Tommy and I have been talking about this all week. I don't know how many- I'm sure you have, yeah. I'm not surprised. But the fire just keeps burning

with the White House now taking criticism from all corners of the MAGA coalition. Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Laura Loomer, Tom Fitton, Megan Kelly, Andrew Schultz. They're all pissed. Many of them have called on Pam Bondi to resign. And then here's Tucker. And I do think, as someone who voted for for the president campaigned for the president a lot,

I'm not attacking the president. But I think even people who are fully on board with, you know, the bulk of the MAGA agenda are like, this is this is too much. Yes. Yes. I'm saying that with love, and I hope that they're listening. Because I think this threatens to blow up the whole thing. But let's just. What do you think? Do you do you agree with Tucker I think this threatens to blow up the whole thing. But let's just... What do you think? Do you agree with Tucker?

Does this threaten to blow up the whole thing? Is that what it sounds like when Tucker says things with love? Like, I haven't... Yeah, right. I didn't know what that intonation sounded like. Yeah. That was a lust. First of all, this is not the first time Tucker has said,

I think this threatens to blow up his entire presidency or the whole coalition. So let's just acknowledge that. Prove to exaggeration, that one. As someone on the sidelines in all of this, I will say I'm torn between thinking Democrats should absolutely, Chris Van Hollen, I think today, is calling for an amendment to an appropriations bill

that asks for further investigation and a report about Jeffrey Epstein. Part of me is like, ride that pony all the way to the bank, Chris Van Hollen. Keep those home fires burning. Maybe Pam Bondi needs to be ousted. Maybe, maybe, maybe the very, very capable Miss Bondi needs to actually feel some consequences because it's such just desserts, right? Like ye who have spent, you know, a significant portion of the last several years spinning conspiracy theories, diluting the American public, poisoning our democracy. Now you, Cash Patel and you,

Pam Bondi and you, Dan Bongino, are in the hot seat. How does it feel? What does it feel like to be actually doing a thing and have everybody telling you you're doing the devil's work? Why don't you go visit Comet Pizza and have a fucking slice? You know what I'm saying?

Yes. So, that's a Pizza Gate reference to anybody who's not from Washington, D.C. Why don't you give John Podesta a call and ask him some advice? So there's that piece of it. However, this is the trial. This is the Sophie's Choice for all Democrats and liberals and people who give a shit about democracy.

So there's that Schadenfreude piece of this, which is like, yes, okay, keep digging. And then there's the reality that so many DOJ employees who were actually working on real criminal concerns were taken off that work to work on the Epstein stuff, which was a complete waste of resources and time. In a moment, they're like real, you know, the DOJ has legitimate work to do, setting aside whatever Trump wants them to do. There's work that needs to be done in those halls. And like, maybe now we can just shut the door on the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theory and

we can please all move along. Like if you are offered the opportunity to lay to rest a nasty conspiracy that, you know, has just fueled speculation and like, you know, turn some people's lives upside down, maybe we should take that opportunity. It's a hard, it's tough math though, John, it's tough math. Yeah, it is tough math. Well, that's the theme of this episode. It's, the Shard and Fraud is great, right?

Like screw these people. But I'm thinking about the base, right? Like what has led a lot of people to join the MAGA movement, right? Is not necessarily any one policy, though there's some of that for some people. They like the deportation stuff. They want to build the wall, all that.

And obviously it's like a love for Trump, but some of it is they, you know, we've split into new coalitions. We're the institutionalists and the Democratic Party and the Republicans got all the cranks, right? This is like Matt Iglesias, I think, coined the term a couple months ago. And so it's like, it's all the cranks, right? This is like Matt Iglesias, I think, coined the term a couple months ago. And so it's a crank coalition now, right?

And that's how they got RFK Jr. and they got Tulsi Gabbard and they got all these people and they believe in conspiracies and they don't believe in any kind of authority or expertise or anything. And so for those people who put these people into office, now to have these people who promised them that they would uncover the worst conspiracies and that they would go after the deep state and they would do all this stuff, to have that promise broken by Donald Trump himself,

I don't know if this is the thing that cracks the coalition or hurts Trump, but I think it opens the door. I mean, I think this is a bigger wound, or at least it could become a bigger wound than I thought at first, just because this is the stuff that really drives his base, unfortunately, for all of us. Right, it's like bombing Iran,

maybe getting us onto another Middle Eastern war. That's bad, but not finding out what Prince Andrew was really doing. That that is the thing that's the straw that broke the camel's back but you may be right and I think probably collectively the feeling that the Trump administration is betraying you know the promises made to the base whether it's I mean they may not register it the shredding of the social safety net whether it is getting the US involved in foreign wars, whether it is offering special dispensation

to the hotel industry and the agricultural industry, or whether it is not delivering on one of the greatest conspiracies of the 21st century, all of this can lead to a mounting sense of betrayal. So maybe there is some wisdom in Tucker Carlson's words of love. Also, this can go on forever because there's only two possibilities here.

The most likely one, which is the list doesn't exist. They're telling the truth now, right? So the list doesn't exist, they're telling the truth. In which case, no matter what they do, they can keep pushing. There's never going to get a list. They can fire Pam Bondi, but then the next attorney general, the litmus, the primary litmus test for the next attorney general will be, can you produce

the Epstein list, which they won't be able to because there's no list. Do you remember they like had an influencer event at the white house where they like gave out binders with already previously released Rolodex rolls or whatever it was from Jeffrey Epstein's office. They're so desperate to find anything. It shocks me they couldn't find a thing to try and spin up. It must be such an open and shut case

that they couldn't even find, well, we did find a packet of Splenda in a cell that may or may not have been Splenda or something, you know, just like anything. There was literally nothing for them to hold onto in the report. It tells you something about the state of the matter. Or the less likely possibility that there was something

and now they're just gonna cover it up forever. Right, well then, you know. Then Tucker and all of them were right. So who knows? Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but a quick announcement before we do that. Love It is going to Canada for one night only. Love It or Leave It is going to be in Montreal on July 24th for Just For Laughs with special guests Zach Zucker, Roy Wood Jr. and Gianmarco Soresi.

Then it's back to Dynasty Typewriter in LA for the usual business. They've got a great lineup of guests here, including Alice Wetterlund, Peppermint, Ken Jennings, Amy Schneider, Kristen Johnson, Mary Beth Barone, and more. Grab tickets now at crooked.com slash events. Pod Save America is brought to you by Rocket Money. Everybody knows there are things they can do to reduce monthly costs and improve their finances.

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That's rocketmoney.com slash crooked, rocketmoney.com slash crooked. Now if you're in the White House and you're dealing with all this, you'd obviously rather direct your supporters' attention elsewhere. And so one thing you might do is let them know that you're launching new investigations into more deep state traitors. Sure enough Fox News broke the story this week, of course Fox News, that the administration is spinning up criminal investigations into former CIA director John Brennan and former FBI director James Comey. Current CIA director John Ratcliffe apparently has referred Brennan to the FBI for potential criminal prosecution, allegedly for his testimony to Congress related to the inclusion of the Steele dossier in the agency's 2016 intelligence assessment on Russian interference. Real callback to season one of this drama we're still living, maybe season two. Early seasons.

Season one. It was season one. I think we living, maybe season two. I don't, it seemed, early seasons. Season one, it was season one. I think we can call it season one. I mean, I guess if they'd gone after Hillary, that could have, that really would have been season one. Yeah, that's why I was going back and forth. That would have been season one, maybe season two, yeah. So it's not clear exactly what they plan to hang on James Comey, but The Times is reporting

that plainclothes Secret Service officers tailed Comey's car and tracked the location of his cell phone the day after he posted a photo of seashells spelling out 8647 back in May, which Trump World made a big show of treating as an incitement to a threat for assassination. Secret Service visited Comey. That was another, that was a more recent episode. Trump got asked about these potential investigations in that meeting we talked about earlier with African leaders on Wednesday.

Let's listen. Well, I know nothing about it other than what I read today, but I will tell you, I think they're very dishonest people. I think they're crooked as hell. And maybe they have to pay a price for that. I believe they are truly bad people and dishonest people. So whatever happens, happens.

Just absurd. Well, what does he really think of them? I mean, how real do you think these investigations will be? Like clearly, and of course I know and worked with John Brennan when he was in the White House. And you know, I saw him on Nicole Wallace's show and he gave his first public comments there and he was like, you know, no one's reached out to me. He's like, I read about it in the New York Times. I haven't gotten called by the FBI. I haven't got visited by anyone.

I have no idea what this is supposed to be about. This is this is clearly gonna be a huge pain in the ass for Brennan and Comey if these investigations, uh, unfold. Do you think that's all, or is it something worse? I think this is... So, the, the mechanism by which this is being executed is clownish, obviously, as so many other things are. I don't think there's anything there, there. They call to mind the Durham Report, by which this is being executed is clownish, obviously, as so many other things are. I don't think there's anything there, there.

They call to mind the Durham Report, which already went through all of this, right? Like, we know how this story ends. The point is not the actual investigation. The point is to reseed John Brennan and Jim Comey's names in the American sort of conversation and get, you know, MAGA world fired up about them. It's a redirect from the Jeffrey Epstein stuff.

And that is a precarious place for any public person to be, right? You do not want the president of the United States to be talking about you, and especially using that language, right? I think they're very bad people. I think they're as crooked as they get. Whatever happens, happens.

Like you talk about an incitement towards violence That's what it sounds like it's not a bunch of seashells on the beach Although what the fuck was James to call me thinking like what anyway setting that aside? Like that kind of language coming from Trump who begs to know nothing about this which is hilarious because it's like I mean What is the one thing you have is a bunch of stooges in office doing exactly what you want? but but the idea that you know, it But the idea that they're just terrible people and it would be a shame if something happened to them is kind of what I hear when I hear that.

And that's, so regardless of whether there's actually a fulsome investigation and whether they subpoena him or whatever happens, it's the sense of vulnerability, it's the sense of, I think, danger, imminent danger that this puts them in. And I think the sort of long tail of this is any public official, right? I mean, it's already we're seeing purges at the DOJ. Already we have whistleblowers, right? Anybody who stands up to Trump, whether he's president or even in his post presidency,

you know, this is the kind of thing that gives you pause, right? Like, do I really want to do this? Because, like, even when I think it's over, even when season two has passed and we're in season three, season four, we may be even in season five, like, somehow Trump will go back or Trump's allies will go back and when it suits them and when it's politically expedient for them, they will go back to it to stoke rage and animosity for nothing but, I mean, for a goal no bigger than personal gain and political survival. So that's dangerous. And I think that is the thing that matters in this, maybe more than the actual investigation

itself. Yeah. And look, there's also a lot of space between a nuisance and being worried that your life is being threatened by this, right? Which is they start an investigation about one thing and then they keep going and maybe they don't find anything, but they leak a bunch of the investigation just to embarrass them, to publicly shame them. Um, so there's that, that they have to worry about too. And once they investigate those two, then they start getting statements from other people and it's all becomes a thing about like, do you entrap people with false statements and all that kind of shit? And so it is a, it is a recipe for the kind of dangerous politicization

of the Justice Department of our criminal justice system that, you know, I don't think, you know, publicly a lot of people are going to look at this and even people who are like Democrats be like, oh, I'm sure they didn't do anything wrong and it's fine, but whatever, but it's like, it's not going to stop at James Comey and John Brennan at all. And what it does is sends, it just sends a message to everyone, whether in the

government or out of the government, that you cross these people and we're going to send FBI, DOJ after you. And within the FBI and the DOJ, I'm sure they might have some problems finding people who are going to do these investigations and take these cases. But if you're those people, you're thinking to yourself, okay, do I say no and lose my job? Or do I go along with it? Right? Well, it's like, it's like Ravenny.

And like the idea that there are good people in there who are like, well, wait a second, are we just going to take a middle finger to justice? And some people do. So Trump isn't just taking revenge on the deep state. He's attempting to purge most of the federal government of anyone who's not completely loyal to him with mixed results. This week, the Supreme Court greenlit Trump's plan to fire hundreds of thousands of nonpartisan

nonpolitical civil servants. Challenge for Trump is that there aren't enough Fox News hosts and podcast hosts to staff an entire administration, though he is certainly trying. Marco Rubio's got four jobs now. Todd Blanche has a few. Stephen Miller's running just about everything, and now, former Real World, Road Rules, and Real World Road Rules Challenge star,

I wanted to make sure he gets credit for all three of his reality shows that he's been in. Sean Duffy, he's apparently gonna run NASA, at least for the time being, as well as the Department of Transportation, where he has had some trouble keeping all the planes in the skies. Meanwhile, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem seems to be struggling to balance all

her duties with her press hits and photo ops. FEMA officials just told CNN they had to wait days to get the funding necessary to respond to the devastating Texas floods, thanks to a new rule that requires Noem's personal signature on any expenditure over $100,000. The official said that normally they'd pre-stage search and rescue teams to areas they know will flood. They weren't able to do that this time. Nome didn't provide the approval for those assets until Monday, more than 72 hours after the flooding started. But she did find time on Sunday to ask her Instagram followers which equestrian portrait of her they'd like to see hanging in the South Dakota State Capitol. So you know there is that. I mean who among us? Who

among us hasn't gotten just totally sidetracked from really urgent work matters trying to figure out which equestrian portrait to hang? Who among us doesn't have multiple equestrian photos to choose from? A lot to choose from. I mean it's it is we talked about Sophie's Choice but I wish if only there was a department of government efficiency that could look at this incredibly inefficient government setup that we have and figure out a way to streamline it. It's not, I mean, I say that, but it's like,

can you imagine being the parent of one of these children and reading the story? It is unfuckingfathomable. Like, first of all, $100,000 for an organization like FEMA is effectively asking, you know, your accountant to approve every $5 expenditure. You'd be spending all day on the phone with your accountant. It totally hamstrings FEMA.

And we haven't seen the worst of this. Like, we're gonna have multiple natural disasters that we have to contend with, both because it's hurricane and wildfire season and we're burning the earth up at an alarming rate. So this is one of those things where you wanna hear this charge being led by people affected directly by these disasters, like asking questions.

This is where if I were in Kerrville or I were in Texas, or just as an American citizen, there've gotta be answers about this, right? If there's truly a delay, if Texas isn't getting the deployment of federal resources that it needs, if I think that there's more reporting that they didn't have enough people

to answer the disaster call center because she hadn't approved extra federal support for that, that they needed more data for their search and rescue operations, but they didn't have the cooperation of the federal government. I don You know, they needed more data for their search and rescue operations, but they didn't have the cooperation of the federal government. I don't know if an equestrian portrait takes that long

to decide upon, but this is someone either who is in the most, I'll be the most generous I can be, either so overwhelmed with work that she cannot delegate in the way that she must, or who is just completely out to lunch and out of her league in the most urgent and pressing matters of human survival, right? So, but none of it's excusable.

And now we have, I'm sorry, I just need to go back to the Road Rules champ running NASA? If you wrote it in a screenplay, John. He's been doing such a screenplay, John. He's been doing such a good job at transportation. It's me. Well, road rules taught him so much about the road. Why can't he apply that to zero gravity?

What is happening? Well, see, this is, okay, let's, even if we lived in a world, let's just live in an imaginary world where all these people have the best intentions, right? And they want to do right by the American people and they wanna serve the public as they're supposed to do. When you hollow out government

and fire people who aren't loyalists and just send the Doge teams in and all the rest of the bullshit that's happened since January, this is what's gonna happen. You're just going to get rank and competence. When you fill the administration with Fox News hosts at the cabinet level, people who've never done

any of this shit before, you're gonna have these problems, even if you had the best intentions, which, you know, we can, I don't really have a lot of hope that they do. So of course this is gonna fucking happen. And of course it's gonna get worse. And you know, there's there's two big consequences to hollowing out the government and to the way that Trump has staffed the government one we just talked about which is you get loyalists who are going to do your bidding and not do the bidding of the American people and

Go after people and take revenge and just basically be your sort of personal patronage army out there and You just you're gonna hollow a government and not have enough good qualified people to just do the basic functions that need to be done in government. And the most basic function is protecting the American people and helping them when natural disasters hit. Well, and I would say it's exacerbated.

Not only is there the incompetence and the cravenness, there's also the stupidity of making the job even harder by saying, you know, passing rules like every expenditure over $100,000 I have to personally sign off on. I mean, this is making a job that you are already unqualified for that much harder. And it's not just like sort of sitting on the sidelines and cackling as these people, you know, are incapable of doing their jobs. There is a very real human consequence here. And that's what makes it so unacceptable. But I mean, again, this is a thing where it's

like, you have to keep I mean, the people that the questions need to be I mean, what really truly needs to happen and and this is the sort of, I'm always asking myself, is this a catalytic moment? Is this a moment where you really see citizen outrage on the level where you need to see it and from the people you need to see it from? These are people who are losing family members or their entire, their life in these catastrophic floods. Will they ask the questions?

Will they hold these people accountable? Because this will keep happening. I mean, this is not a one-off, right? It's only gonna get worse. Yeah, and we're only at the beginning of hurricane season, you know? Exactly. Even just this year. So one person with both the courage to speak out

about this and the power to do something about it was retiring North Carolina Senator Tom Tillis, who this week explained to Jake Tapper why he did neither of those things on two big administration nominations just this year. Here's a sampling. Well you know first I need to set the record straight on Hex F. With the passing of Tom I think it's clear he's out of his depth as a manager of a large complex organization based on the information I have today. If all I had was the information on the day of the vote I'd certainly vote for him again. But now I have the information of him being a manager and I don't think that

as probationary period has been very positive. Quite honestly if the main reason I support it Kennedy was because Bill Cassidy thought that we should see how it plays out. Just... Okay. It makes me so mad. With the passing of time? With the passing... First of all, I had the information.

We all had the information. We all had the information that he couldn't run a non-profit. Why did we think that he would be able to run the Pentagon? Nobody thought he could run the organization. And the idea that these Republicans can actually say the truth only when they're no longer running for office, there is a special place in the underworld for people who know better, I think, in all of this.

It is one thing if you've been fed a steady diet of misinformation and you've grown up in the far stretches, the farthest right corner of the universe, and you really genuinely don't know better, which is a strange and unfortunate place to live. But Tom Tillis knows better. Tom Tillis knows better, Tom Tillis knew better. And the fact that he can only find moral fortitude or a backbone or some part of his frontal lobe once he's decided not to run, I think makes the admission and the, not even a mea culpa, it makes it even worse.

Like on some level, it might've been better if he had just shut up and not said this because I find it utterly enraging. And what's even worse is we know from a lot of reporting that during the Hegseth nomination, MAGA folks, like, leaned on Tillis, threatened Tillis, he felt threatened, for offering some mild criticism

and maybe suggesting that he wasn't gonna vote for him. So we already know that story. And, like, the idea that Tommy Tillis wouldn't just be like, you know, he could have had a moment where you're like, some mild criticism and maybe suggesting that he wasn't gonna vote for him. So we already know that story. And like the idea that Thomas Tillis wouldn't just be like, you know, he could have had a moment where you're like, yeah, no, I was threatened and these people are crazy and now I'm retiring to get away from this. Like he could have just said that

and not had to pretend that is all the information I had at the time or like RFK Jr. Bill Cassidy made me do it. Blame Bill Cassidy, just like that t-shirt with an arrow. But also the passage of time. It's like, bro, there's been no passage of time. It's like yesterday that these guys were confirmed. What are you talking about?

Nice try, we're still living in this time space continuum. We all have the information, don't even try it. To try and pretend that like he's come to a realization after the passage of time, given more information, if he'd known then what he knows now, I mean, give me a break. It is. It's just so, and he's like, just watching him,

and he's like, you know, he's got a pep in his step now, and he's feeling better. And you know, everyone should watch the rest of the interview with Tapper. And you know, he does say like plenty of critical things about the Trump White House, which makes you realize, where were you when you were,

when you thought you might be running for reelection and how many other Republican senators are thinking the same thing and just doing this bullshit anyway, still in year 10 of this. This is why I feel like there really is a special place in the underworld for people who do better and continue on and just say,

because it's just a revelation that it's it's just power and once power it's the pursuit of power over literally everything else including our democracy and once you relinquish that fight for power or the fight to hold on for power you can actually be a person with integrity i mean that's just you've seeded your integrity once you've made that bargain let's talk about what Democrats are doing and not doing. It's been a week since Trump signed his economic plan into law. And according to a new report from Lauren Egan at the Bulwark, some democratic electeds are getting cold feet about going on offense because the popular parts of the bill, like the thousand dollar investment

accounts for newborns and no tax on tips on overtime, or overtime, they go into effect right away. And of course the Medicaid cuts, or at least most of the Medicaid cuts and most of the snap cuts don't kick in until later. In the piece, Democratic pollster, Selinda Lake says she's worried about voters concluding that Democrats are just crying wolf again.

What do you think of that? I worry, I do worry. I mean, I think the fact that the Medicaid cuts are delayed till after the 2026 midterms and that there are gonna be other sweeteners that kick in before then, the American public has the attention span of a fruit fly. I mean, I will never forget, John,

and we talked about this. I think I had you as a guest on my MSNBC show when I went to Michigan and talked to like 25 year old union workers who were working on projects that were funded by the Inflation Reduction Act that were literally being put to work by something Joe Biden and the Democrats passed and they both did not give Biden credit for that and were much more interested in Donald Trump. So just because something in Washington seems like it should either benefit or harm one group of people doesn't necessarily mean that the fallout will fall along the logical lines. And I think it's entirely

possible that this is one of those things, in part because it's massive, it was passed in the dead of night, people are going to hold on to different parts of it, and like you said, people won't feel necessarily the worst effects of it for a little while. And so I do think it's incumbent on Democrats. I mean, listen, I think the whole, the party needs to be more proactive generally, right? Like this, it's so much of a responsive, back-footed stance and there needs to be so, I mean, I get it.

Like it's hard, they're not the governing majority. Trump every day is setting something on fire, but the party needs to coalesce and figure out its priorities and then get aggressive because just simply being a receptacle for Trump dissatisfaction or outrage is not going to be enough in the next two years or the next four. Yeah. And it, look, it may be enough in the midterms, but I also think, of course Democrats should put together

a proactive vision for what they wanna get done. Now, I think there's a challenge, which is you wanna put together a forward-looking agenda and something that will actually inspire people to vote for you, not just that you're not the Donald Trump or not Republicans. But Democrats also can't promise, at least in advance of the midterms, that that agenda has any chance of being enacted if you vote for a Democratic Congress.

Yeah. Okay, first of all, I'll just say I think the House is one thing, the Senate's another. And I know Democrats have designs on the Senate because of the passage of the one big, beautiful bill. And I do think that that's where, that's where I think everything should be handled. A healthy amount of skepticism should attend any predictions that some of these harder seats are gonna be easier wins because of this bill, right?

I do think the American public is largely smart enough to know that the Democrats can't pass anything until they are given power, but I do think there needs to be some kind of statement of principles because it does feel a bit rudderless. And it is hard because the Democratic Party really is, as my colleague and friend, Nicole Wallace, always says, like, it's the pro-democracy coalition, right? It's a massive tent. And figuring out, you know, how to sift through the remains of the election and even what's happening in the Trump administration, what to prioritize is going to be really difficult. But it is okay to be quiet now in circle wagons, but I do think there needs to be something

that is not about Trump, but it is about the Democratic Party and what the party stands for and is a statement of priorities. Because I don't see it that way. And around affordability, and I think partly because we also have to be honest about how people feel and what has gone into effect, right? Like we can't, the worry about the Medicaid cuts not hitting until after the midterms,

that is real and that is valid. And what we can't do is go out there and just pretend that they've happened when they haven't happened, which you could see. But also, as we know, whether you're a Democratic or Republican president or Democratic and Republican Congress, people hold you responsible for how they're feeling in their own lives. And if prices have not come down, if the trade war kicks up again, if interest rates are still high, which clearly Trump knows, which is why he's like threatening to fire Jerome Powell every day. If the lived experience of most voters, by the time we get to next November, is not great or has not improved, then the worry about specific provisions of the bill and when they take effect, I think we'll fade into the background a little bit, but that's still, your point remains,

which is Democrats should be fighting that, not just by saying we're not that, but like, one, you know, if you put us into power in 26 and then in 28, if we win, this is the agenda that we wanna pass, this is what we wanna do for people. Like I think that is critical. And I think even immigration,

like that could be a more resonant issue given the draconian approach Trump has taken. But it's not just about saying this is wrong and telling the stories. That's the first piece of it. The second is what are you going to do? Like what's the plan? Well, as you said, you know, the party has a number of different efforts to find a pathway out of the wilderness here.

The latest is from a band of about 30 Democratic officials that launched this week. It's called Majority Democrats, which the New York Times describes as, quote, a number of prominent younger Democrats with records of winning tough races who have, quote, big ambitions to remake their party's image, recruit a new wave of candidates and challenge political orthodoxies they say are holding the party back. Some of the names involved, Abigail Spanberger, Mikey Sherrill, Ruben Gallego, Alyssa Slotkin. So some of the big names in the Democratic Party, up and coming big names in the Democratic Party.

They say there's no ideological litmus test and they don't have a policy agenda just yet. But several Democrats involved told the Times they're focused on issues around quote, affordability, safety, challenging the power of big tech. What do you think? Good idea, bad idea, need more info? I mean, I'm not going to dismiss anything. First of all, I think this should be a moment of like, Kaleida, of like policy rumspringa. You know what I mean? I feel like everybody should be like, going for it. And I think if there's one thing Democrats should learn from the example of the Trump administration and MAGA world is be not afraid, like go out there. Like it is one thing, I mean, it is one,

the one thing I'll give them is like, there is a boldness with which she has acted. And I do think the American public wants, they want forward movement. And I think, you know, Democrats obviously need to think about electability, they need to think about what's gonna win, but I think this is the moment when there should be, you know, a lot of spitballing. And if this group, filled with winners, can create an environment where people can

talk really strategically, but also with frankness and looseness and like come up with ideas, I'm all for it. I think my concern is like I don't just want it to be about what wins because I think that is a, I mean it's obviously a hugely important piece of this but like there needs to be, like this is the Petri dish part of the science experiment and there needs to be a sense of, I mean, as dark as these times are,

it is a moment where so much is possible. You know, like there are a lot of ideas that could fly. Like we exist in a climate where the unthinkable is happening and that is largely being interpreted in the sort of negative. But I also think the old ways are outmoded in a lot of respects. And therefore, that's huge opportunity. And Democrats should try and capture some of that possibility. And to the extent that they can be joyful and creative about what the solutions are. And the party really needs to recapture that because there's so much sorrow and

sadness and a lot of it is well placed. But now is the time to experiment and to, and to be big. And so if there's a bunch of new people coming up with a, like, you know, a lunchtime sandwich conclave to talk about what has to happen, like go for it, you know, a lunchtime sandwich conclave to talk about what has to happen. Like, go for it, you know, do it, do it, like, go forth and truly prosper because, like, without that excitement of new ideas and new strategies, I don't, I don't know what happens in 2028, but like the one thing about MAGA, the one thing about Trump, you go to those rallies, you hear him speak, there is a passion and a verb and an excitement and a feeling of like kinetic energy. And I largely find it like that much of it morally abominable. But that is something that like the left needs to find. So I guess that's my feeling

about it. No, I mean, Donald Trump promised has been promising since, you know, 2015 to burn it all down. And in this term, he is doing his very best to burn it all down. And whatever remains is not going to be much. And the silver lining there is we can think about how to rebuild from scratch this country and this government that Donald Trump is doing his best to destroy. And I do think that can push us to think outside the box. I don't think voters vote for people based on like a checklist of policies, but I do think one thing that's similar to Donald Trump's elections and even, you know, just for a more recent example, Zoran Mondani's election is,

there were policy ideas, but they were policy ideas that are sort of easy to latch onto. They grab your attention, they stick in the mind, right? Like, oh, you know that Zoran is for freezing the rent, right? You know that, you know what free city buses just broke through.

And Donald Trump is for building the wall. You just knew that. And you need these policy ideas that are big, bold, but also easily accessible, stick with people, go directly to what their concerns and hopes are, which has been around affordability for a couple decades now, but certainly over the last couple of years when inflation hit.

So, I think that figuring those policies out, and then like you said, they gotta be, we have some fresh ones too, right? Like, I know, I think that figuring those policies out, and like you said, they gotta be, we have some fresh ones too, right? Like, I mean, we always joke about this, but like, I've been in democratic politics for 20 years, and we laugh about that. You're the, no, oh my God, but you're only 22. But we laugh about how many times,

like, you know, democratic politicians are out there being like, I'm gonna give tax breaks to companies that create jobs here in America,'m gonna give tax breaks to companies that create jobs here in America and stop giving tax breaks to companies that ship jobs over, like, it's the same shit that has polled well for 20 years, and pollsters will tell you it polled well, but it's like, you can't, you need to break through

and you need to grab people's attention. So, big and bold, yes, but also new. Um, and I do think that, yeah, and not too many, but just a couple that really grab people. Be free. Think of it as ideas, Woodstock. I mean, I know it's hard, right? But it is a remarkable moment in American politics for a party to fully not reinvent itself,

but be wholly responsive to this kind of moment of uncertainty and look at it as a moment of opportunity. I know that sounds Pollyannaish or overwrought or whatever, but I do think capturing some sense of opportunity and ambition in this moment is essential. One last thing I got here on my list. I need to get your thoughts on Nazi Grock. Speaking of uncertainty and ambition.

That's how we're going to end. You know last Friday, Elon Musk announced that Grock had been improved and was better than ever. So people started testing that proposition. And in response to various questions, admittedly leading, Grok did the following. Praised Hitler, went on an insane rant against people with Jewish last names, vividly described a theoretical sexual encounter with Twitter CEO Linda Iaccarino, who stepped down on Thursday. Then overnight, just last night, we're recording this on a Thursday,

Elon said that the new version, the new new version has been released. And this one, you're gonna be able to have in your Tesla. So I don't know if you'd be driving around in your Tesla and hearing Hitler praise or what, but this is what's happening. It's all happening on X, the everything app. I mean, it's just perfect.

It's exactly what we should expect. I got an email at one point a long time ago. I was thinking of buying a Tesla and I like somehow got on their mailing list and it was this long kind of like a mission statement about Tesla's commitment to the environment. And I very quickly, I almost wrote back, like how dare you?

Like go fuck yourself. Like you have betrayed the fundamental principles of all the things that are good about environmentalism and that, I mean, just how dare you try to do this right now? I think it was on Grok Nazi Day that this went on. Yeah. So, like, this both tells me that we're doomed.

I know I just, right? Like, this is also, like, an AI, this is an AI discussion as much as it is an ex-discussion. I left Twitter, like, a long time ago because I just couldn't keep up and then I had every excuse in the world because it's a toxic swamp. But, you know, I guess the theme of this episode

is like you get what you pay for. Like this is a person who has, you know, took ex over to allow the flourishing of like hate speech and misinformation. And I mean, are we surprised that this is the thing that he built? I honestly read about this and I was like, I don't, I don't, by the way, Linda Iaccarino insists

that her like leaving the company had nothing to do with any of this. Right, yeah, which may, which, you know, could be very true. Entirely coincidental. Entirely coincidental. How many of us have had lewd AI, like Nazi bots, explaining sexual fantasies about us? And, you know, that's a Tuesday. That's a Tuesday. So, I mean... I do think it probably, for me at least, it's definitely more of an AI story. And also, the limits of what artificial intelligence is going to be able to do. I mean, I do think it probably said for me at least it's it's definitely more of an AI story and also

the limits of what Artificial intelligence is going to be able to do the dangers of what it could do and But but the limits of what it can do At least in relation to what people in Silicon Valley like Elon Musk like Peter teal like all these other assholes think that it can do which is We're gonna create something so intelligent that it's going to be able to solve all the problems that these messy humans have not been able to solve, and especially these idiots in government, right?

But we are going to create the superintelligence, but it's like the intelligence is based on all the rest of the shit that's out there in the world that is put into the world by humans, including some very awful humans who send the kind of things on X that Grok has been trained on. And so at the very best, you're always gonna get an amalgamation. Artificial intelligence is always gonna be an amalgamation

of everyone else's intelligence, of us, right? For all, for ill and for mostly ill. Yeah, well we're pretty ill right now. If we wanna build, if we think we're gonna have these systems, these AI systems that we're supposed to trust to give us like factual information and the truth and we already have a crisis and trust in this country that has led us here

and this shit's gonna happen, I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, and I do worry there's like a whole subset of people for whom it's like, well, finally, validation and vindication about my great race theory, Grok AI proving the case, you know, I mean, that is the other dark side of this is there's a whole bunch of people who are like, why'd you have to change the algorithm?

Seemed fine to me. Yeah, it's real. I mean, it's like, you eat poison, you get poison, and that's kind of where we're at. Little Grock. Little Grock is just feeding on the shit of the 21st century, and so it goes. That is for a man who, like, loves shoveling shit.

So here we are. Grock Nazi. Well, that is a perfect place to end. Yeah. Cool. Alex, Alex Wagner, thank you so much for joining Podsave America, for coming on. Thank you for going on vacation, Dan.

The big pile of shit that we had to wade through today. That was fun. It was fun to do it with you. No one I'd rather be swamped in fecal matter with. Thank you so much, John. Thank you so much. Fiegelmatter with. Thank you so much, John. Thank you so much. Potts of America is brought to you by Quince. I'm not at the chasing trends, but I'm all about stuff that fits right, feels good, and actually lasts. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become my everyday essentials. Quince is the kind of stuff you'llquality staples have become my everyday essentials.

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Go to quince.com slash crooked for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash crooked to get free shipping and 365 day returns, quince.com slash crooked. 365 day returns, quince.com slash crooked. Joining us today is Ana Ramon, Executive Director of the Texas Leadership Pipeline and Annie's List, two organizations that recruit, train, and help elect Democrats up and down the ballot in Texas.

Ana and Texas Leadership Pipeline recently partnered with Vote Save America as part of our effort to help our audience, people just like you, run for office in Texas, Arizona, and North Carolina. We wanted to have around to talk a little bit about that effort, what it'll take to turn Texas blue, and why you shouldn't be afraid to take the plunge and run for office in your community. Ana, welcome to the pod. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. So first and foremost, can you tell us a little bit about the work that you do with

Texas Leadership Pipeline? Absolutely. A lot of it is the quiet behind the scenes, sneaking around, you know, classic Texas politics activities. We want to find the next county commissioner of Hood County. We want to find the next county commissioner of Nueces County. We want to dig deep. And what that takes is that qualitative and quantitative approach to building what we term

a groundswell of candidates coming from the top, not only the top four counties, but what is the top 10, the top 25 counties? As you mentioned, turning Texas blue will take people pushing up as much as it takes people pushing down. So it's having those one-on-one conversations with candidates, it's helping candidates understand how much it really takes to get from signing your name up

and putting your $25 down to raising, if you're running for state house, like 1.2 million to take out a Republican candidate, right? So it's all that in between. And what's really exciting is getting to meet the people along the way and really testing the map in Texas Across what I would deem six states in one state Yeah

You guys have you have races all up and down the ballot and you're trying to recruit candidates for races all up and down the ballot and I realize there's a lot of Uncontested races and by uncontested, I mean, there's a Republican and there's not even a Democrat running. Can you give us an idea, at least in Texas, what is the scope of races that go uncontested? Why aren't they contested? And are they unwinnable or are they just races

that we might be able to win if we could just find candidates to run? Well, I'm sure these fun facts have been shared on the pod before. We have 254 counties. We have thousands of school board races. We have thousands of city council races, countless commissioner races. And what it takes is both that really the people power and investing in individuals, but it also takes resources

to really think about what does a six region, six state approach look like in Texas. When I talk to national entities and organizations, I ask them, when you look at Texas, do you think about us in a Virginia to the Carolinas kind of aspect? And we need the kind of people who are willing to run almost in multi-states to really get that same ROI. You know, we're looking at who knows how much opportunity and that's what we see in the people who are in Texas. So it takes what we see is more of that people power and having essentially like strong conduits and platforms like yourself teaming up with us to really reach an audience that we wouldn't normally get a chance to talk to. We have to democratize the very undemocratic process of running in campaigns, right?

I'm sure you know this better than I do. Like we live in a world where barriers exist to raising money, to actually understanding what makes sense for you to run for, to even like, what does it mean to run for office? Like there are barriers along the way. What data does it take to get there? So what we're trying to do is that wide net of catching people who are that untraditional candidate. We have to find those individuals. Those untraditional, non-traditional candidates

is what's gonna get us people who can outperform top of ticket, who understand their district, understand their community. And I would almost argue most importantly, understand themselves to really go against the barriers that are erected in Texas. We always joke about being Texas tough. I'm like maybe more like Texas punched in the teeth like to run for office. Like it's a tough role and you need people who are willing to not be afraid of the far right pushback, not be afraid of even personal and individual attacks, right?

Even like physical attacks and what that can mean. So what that looks like is really doing that large catch. At this point, we've been able to identify about 35,000 people outside of the major cores that wanna run for office in Texas. But we also have, of course, the quantitative piece and the qualitative piece is the individuals. We have three full-time scouts who are on the ground year-round talking to people at

running office, creating warming events where we get people in the room, and last but not least even knocking on doors and dragging them to go sign up to run because that's what it takes to get someone to run in Oyster Creek, Texas. So there's a lot in between that, but ultimately having, again, these kinds of partnerships and relationships with folks like Vote Save America, you guys are able to talk to a whole group of people who we just don't have access to. As much as I like to think, like when I tweet out,

I get 1.9 million listeners, that's just not the case, but it could be folks like at home who are listening to this right now, who is a mom having margarita or like a dad who just got home off of work. Like we need those individuals who understand who they are in their community to really take on the apparatus,

which is the far right and the effort to control not only the soul of Texas, but the soul of our union. So I am sure that for a lot of people listening who might live in Texas, you know, people who live in Texas, um, who've never thought about running for office or maybe who've thought about it, but sort of shied away from it. A couple barriers may be like one, I don't know if I

have the right background. I don't know if I have the right skills for this. You know, I'm not well known enough. Um, what if I can't know if I have the right background. I don't know if I have the right skills for this. You know, I'm not well known enough. Um, what if I can't raise money? Um, do I really is, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just kind of scared. Like, you know, some of the threats that you talked about, but also just scared of like, even if we didn't live in this awful political environment, just putting yourself out there, you know, what are some of the things that you

guys and your recruiters, uh, like talk to people about who are, maybe who've thought about running for office, but either decided against it or just sort of on the fence? I have to be brutally honest with people, right? Brutally honest about like how much it'll take the raise, especially on the type of election in Texas and the realities of our state, of course. But I also talk about their why.

I think that's such a critical point because if you do not understand intrinsically why you want to do it, you are more prone to getting torn and quartered in this space. But like, for example, I'll give an example. I recruited a candidate out of Velaspa Lappas on Broadway, shout out San Antonio, over a margarita.

And she knew after seeing the healthcare system, seeing what happened to her family and everything, what it would mean for her to run. And the next day she found it within herself to raise over months, eight to $700,000 to run for a race. And granted, that's not the typical, the norm, but it's just awakening sometimes that intrinsic thought that truly people who come from less can achieve more and people who have done

less have run for more. Those are barriers, truly, but you can be the more in your community that takes us because I can say this from personal experience, I've done five, kind of six and a half legislative sessions and multiple cycles in both the House and the Texas Senate. The right person in the wrong room or the right person in the wrong room can make an incredible difference. So to your point, yes, there are barriers, but understanding your why, understanding the realities of running, not running away from those realities, and then partnering with folks, like, which was really

exciting, like with Annie's List, but also, you know, Latino Victory Fund, you know, run for something, entities that can help you get to that next point and tracks that we can put you on. It's not so daunting when you realize you're not alone running, right? That actually gets me through a lot of the work in our own state in Texas, so. So if someone listening comes to the Texas Leadership Pipeline,

what kind of support do you offer? We will have hands-on experience because we know, like especially in the beginning, you have to understand at least the bare bones and the structure of what it means to run for office. So running 101, story of self-101, finance 101, field one-on-one, and having that personal touch with our scouts who are doing this year-round work

under not only our Texas Leadership Pipeline umbrella but we are the affiliate for the national pipeline fund. So we actually do also have not only our resources but resources that we're able to to share and like push people into other tracks and opportunities if it makes sense. Like for example example, we did a training with Latino Victory Fund, and we connected them with a broader umbrella of organizations that could help if you're a Latino running for office. The same thing, we're working on something that's LGBTQ-focused. We're working on tracks of, like,

what does it mean to be a pro-immigrant candidate in Texas? So there's innovative ways that, of course, we have more of that one on one connection through our larger pipeline and our entity, but we also have our larger network of organizations that we want to make sure we're connecting people to so they can find their track and their people when they're running for office. So I'll ask my political hack question, which is a big cycle coming up in Texas. We've got a Senate race that's on the map. Greg Abbott just announced that they're going to try to push for redistricting

ahead of the midterms to try to squeeze out a few more gerrymandered seats for Republicans in Texas. Obviously, you guys are dealing with tragedy right now with the floods. Texas over the last couple cycles has gone back and forth from coming really close to flipping blue to then some of the folks along the Rio Grande Valley voting for Trump. So what does it look like on the ground right now? What are you hearing and seeing

and what hopes do you have for 2026? What I'm seeing is which is well one to talk about redistricting this is a very much like a Bobby Hill that's not my purse moment like that's not your purse Greg Abbott like Jesus Christ like what are we doing? Well I know what we're doing we're trying to steal races from black and brown congresspeople and constituents but that's besides that point. What I what I am seeing is though, uh, people who are unwilling to give up. And I think we have been having actually multiple

conversations about this today. Um, I, you know, even myself in a staff position and capacity, I've had to respond to one too many, one too many crises, one too many natural disasters. But I, I tell myself all we have to lose is more lives. So there is something that pushes us. We have so much at stake and working in Texas is, of course, turning Texas blue is critical. It changes the union, it changes the world,

but it also changes lives that I get to see every day, right? Working along and then being in community with our brothers and sisters in the Valley changes the world, but it also changes lives that I get to see every day, right? Working along and then being in community with our brothers and sisters in the valley or what's happening not only in Kerrville, but in surrounding counties, right? Those mass disasters don't have to be making us strong again. Like, they could instead not happen because they're preventable. And some of the things that we're seeing on the ground like we're having Communications and conversations with folks who are wanting to talk about being a candidate around

on natural disasters and like environmental justice the cancer corridor we are mapping around and looking at candidates who are Surrounding ice detention facilities or ISEs that work with ice like there are ways to push back because you have community members who are impacted by this daily and they know what it means if it can and it doesn't have to, but if it continues. So I am sensing that people are ready to fight and they're very much interested in what a Texas could look like that really reflects the home that I love. And that's not reflected in the Greg Abbott or the Dan Patrick or the, you know, whatever Paxton is right now, like in my lifetime. But I also think that you have this window, in my opinion, coming up in Texas.

And I say this, like, I will never sell the Texas dream, but I will sell the Texas program. We can move Texas in those 10 counties, but we have to invest in that leadership year round, right? Having those year round conversations, having year round training, having year round platforms where we can continue to talk to people because whoever is going to win this state may not even be in electoral politics right now. And we got to get them that hand up because I wholeheartedly believe in my lifetime because I'm I'm 36 and I have to believe this because there's there's little left

in Texas but hope and dreams but I have to believe that I'll work for like a US senator from Texas you know as a Democrat at some point because I see the people on the ground actually moving and shaking and working, even though we are sometimes, yes, the beginning of democracy, and I don't want to see Texas be the end of democracy. There's so much that can happen. Four new, four or five new congressional seats, hopefully in the other direction, more electoral college votes, because we have some of the fastest growing populations

in the country. But what it will take is making sure that those people who have the opportunity are invested in really. And we can do that by investing in the people power of Texas. Well, I believe that you will work for a Democratic senator in Texas one day. And I also know that whoever that Senator is, they will be extremely lucky to have you working for them. And we are extremely lucky that you are doing the work you're doing in Texas, and we're so very excited that you guys are partnering with Vote Save America.

And anyone who is listening, who's from Texas, who lives in Texas, who knows people in Texas, or North Carolina, or Arizona, the other two states that we're doing this in, please think about running for office, because if you do and you're in Texas or North Carolina or Arizona, the other two states that we're doing this in. Please think about running for office. Because if you do and you're in Texas, you have wonderful people like Anna, who will help you out, which we love. And already, you know, this has just been a week.

We have been like bowled over by the number of you listening who have reached out and decided to sign up and say that you want to run for office. We just never expected the response that we got. We know it would be good because we love you guys, but we were overwhelmed by the response, so that's good news. Anna, thank you so much for all the work you're doing

and thank you for joining Pod Save America. I appreciate it. My pleasure and thank you for being willing to take a chance on Texas. And if you don't live in Texas, North Carolina or Arizona, but you still want to run for office, we love that. Please reach out to Vote Save America and sign up for Vote Save America at vote save america.com. And the folks at VSA will put you in touch with people in your state, in your region, in your area who are helping people run for office and giving people

support to run for office. So it's not just Texas, North Carolina, and Arizona. If you're anywhere and you want to run for office, reach out and we will help you out. You can sign up at votesaveamerica.com slash run. That's our show for today. Dan's back on Sunday with an interview with Mark Cuban. Make sure you check that out. Have a good weekend, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the Pod community at crooked.com slash friends or subscribe on Apple podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode

and everything we do here at Crooked. Podsave America is a Crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illick-Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglen and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroote is our head of production.

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