Pod Save America - Trump's Secret Plan for a 3rd Term

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Trump insider Steve Bannon says "there's a plan" for Donald Trump to serve a third term, and Trump says he'd "love to do it." Jon, Lovett, and Tommy speculate what that plan may look like and what it means for this year's elections and the 2026 midterms. Then, they discuss the latest from the ongoing government shutdown, Trump's new tariffs on Canada in response to a TV ad he didn't like, and Republicans' attempts to make Zohran Mamdani the face of the Democratic Party. Then, election attorney Marc Elias, founder of Democracy Docket, joins Lovett to talk more about Trump's 2028 plan and why he's taking the third-term threat seriously.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. Get tickets to CROOKED CON November 6-7 in Washington, D.C at http://crookedcon.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Simplysave.com slash crooked. That's simplysafe.com slash crooked. There's no safe. Like, Simply Safe. Who was Elon Musk before he was so loved and so hated? Saved free speech. He created so many different great things. Before the billions, before the rockets, before the never-ending headlines. I'm Jacob Silverman, and my new podcast explores the prequel to the Elon Musk era. Let me tell you what you don't know about the world's most notorious

Billionaire. Understood the Making of Musk. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Tommy D. Torne. On today's show, we'll talk about Donald Trump's latest musings about doing away with the Constitution to become president for life. Why he's already calling next week's elections rigged and what the resistance looks like right now is AOC and Bernie rally with Zoran Mamdani, with a week to go before the 2025 elections. We'll also get to the latest on the shutdown. In the various scary deadlines, the White House is hoping will force Democrats to cave. Then Lovett talks with Democratic elections attorney and democracy docket founder Mark Elias about the third. term chatter from Trump and the biggest

threats to this year's elections and the midterms. So let's start there. Steve Bannon, our good friend, uh, kicked up the Trump 2028 lunacy in a recent interview with the economist where he said that, quote, there's a plan for Trump to serve a third term, specifically

quote, Trump is going to be president in 28 and people ought to just get accommodated with that because Trump is quote, an instrument of divine will. Like how you don't like sushi when you're first try it. You know? Trump got asked about that on Air Force One on Monday morning as he traveled to Japan as he spoke

to reporters with Marco Rubio at his side. Let's take a listen. I would love to do it. I have the best numbers ever. It's very terrible. We have great people. We have JD, obviously. The vice president is great. I think Marco's great. I think I'm not sure if anybody would run against us. I think if they have a formed a group, it would be Unstoppable. They really do, I believe them. They have Jasmine Crockett, a low IQ person. They have AOC's low IQ.

You give her an IQ test. Have her passed, like, the exams that I decided to take. The first couple of questions are easy. A tiger, an elephant, a giraffe, you know. They couldn't come close to answering any of those questions. They cut the part where he goes, Marco, die Coke. Marco, die Coke. If you're watching this, Marco is going,

between like he's sort of smiling then he's looking down then he's looking a little like what is happening i just want to invade venezuela Boston making fun of me uh aOC did uh tweet this clip out by saying hi mr president uh did they have you draw a clock good for so um we'll get to aOC in a minute we'll leave the legal analysis to mark elias um and love it and love of course they did take an lsat champion right i do want to start with the question about how you guys think uh all of us democracy lovers should be handling the fact that Trump and Maga World just keep talking about a third term. There is a will he or won't he debate with no definitive answer for now. But what are we supposed to do with the information

that Trump might try to serve a third term, or at least keeps telling us that he might? So I talked about this with Mark Elias, and I talked about the legal questions, which I think are really worth listening to, but also this sort of question for us, which is, like, how do we take it seriously without lending it more credibility than it deserves. And I think to answer your question, will he do it? Will he try? Yes. Will he succeed? No. Right? Like we have to be unequivocal in saying that Donald Trump will not be the president of the United States in January of 2029. That is not possible. That is not in the cards. He may try. He may think he should be, but he won't be. And as Mark points out, as a lot of people have pointed out, there's no secret part of the

constitution we're not aware of with that as like king mode in it right like there's no there's no like information that steve bannon is sitting on that were we to learn it would terrify us to our very core like we shouldn't imbue them with more power or like kind of magic sense of the american spirit than then they actually have so like we have to like treat it really seriously he is going to try but we have to not act as if he's already uh succeeding by being so afraid and terrified that he'll succeed it's a bit of a conundrum um because i think they're trying to troll us Yeah. But also it's something that Bannon and Trump would seriously like to do. And so I struggle with that. I mean, I think Bannon's whole life is about trolling and the White House is full of trolls who do things like put Trump 2028 hats on the Oval Office desk when Hakee and Jeffries and Chuck Schumer are in there. Do you see that little anecdote? And then just tweet out pictures of it, whether the pictures are AI or not. Yeah. And like that's it. Like also Trump, we know on January 6th. We all remember that. And he said he wants to stay in charge. Also building a $300 million ballroom. It's not necessarily the behavior of someone who's to leave. Not a renter's move. Not a renter's move. But I agree with you love it. I mean,

I do think like, okay, so what do you do with that information? You do the same thing you would otherwise do. Like, we win the midterms. We drive down as favorable. We fight all the things we're going to fight. And we also remember, like you just said, it's not popular. There's some polling on this back in August. Democrats are more likely than Republicans to think Trump will run again because we like to catastrophize. But it's not popular broadly. I mean, 91% of Democrats, 77% of independents said that Trump should not try to run again. When asked, with those 9% of Democrats. I don't know what they're doing.

Maybe they think he'll lose. Do you have a Republican number there? There was a question about whether presidents should only be able to serve two terms. 52% of Republicans agreed. So it's an uphill battle for Mr. Trump to win a third term. I'm not saying can't do it. I honestly, I think we cannot predict even whether he'll try or not. And we can't predict whether it'll work or not.

Because, like, who knows what might happen? We, you know, we couldn't have predicted anything in the last 10 years. But I actually just don't think you have to predict either or even wonder about either. Like, I think the three choices are you either ignore it. You say that we shouldn't tear up the Constitution to install Donald Trump as a dictator. I like that choice. You know, maybe we just campaign against it, start moving public opinion against it. So to get those numbers up that Tommy was talking about.

Or we trolled them right back by saying Obama, we'll see him on the campaign truck. we'll see him right there. Like we just, I mean, if you want to read tea leaves about, because like you'd say, okay, the Supreme Court's never going to allow that, which I think there was good evidence for Amy Coney Barrett on her book tour was asked about it twice. The first time she was like, well, yeah, that's what the 22nd Amendment says, and then people still didn't worry like,

she wasn't cut and dry, whatever else. And then she was asked again by Nora O'Donnell. In her book, she writes that the Constitution, quote, leaves no room for second guessing when it comes to term limits. And then she was like, Yes, that's what I said. That's what I wrote in the book. So she's pretty clear.

You can imagine that Roberts is in the same place as her because she, you know, and so it's like, but if, you know, could he defy the Supreme Court? Could he take over the, who the fuck knows? Yeah, I think, but that's why it's like, do I think that like my saying, Donald Trump will not be president in 20209? Might there be egg on my face? What a bad day that will be when I feel like I'm embarrassed by this moment. Like we should be, I think, definitive, in part because either this will continue to be

America or won't be. If Donald Trump is president after his term, this isn't America anymore, it's a completely different place. And I don't understand that place. And that's where I'll live. And I'll come to learn about it. But I like that. See, that to me is like the most honest answer. But so I, but, but I believe this is still America. And so I believe it will not happen. I don't know what the path is that. I don't know how hard Donald Trump will try. I don't know what other Republicans will do. But the part of the reason I think you need to say that is like, well, why is Donald Trump doing that? I think it's partly because he wants to. Part it's because he's because he doesn't want to be a lame duck. Yeah. And he doesn't want to be a guy that has

less power than he does. But I think it tells us something not just about him. It tells us something about the Republicans all around him. Donald Trump doesn't want to be a lame duck because so much of his power comes from the fact that he is terrifying to people who criticize him to his fellow Republicans who don't want to get on his bad side. And because so much of his power has been kind of people afraid to defy him in advance and giving him powers he doesn't have. And look at all these pathetic Republicans around him. Like Marco Rubio claims to be a great defender of democracy he's standing there while Donald Trump is promising some kind of like dictatorship, whether by going around the Constitution or by putting his hands through Marco's sleeves and operating

the buttons like through his coat jacket. And he's just fucking standing there. These Republicans are embarrassing. They're afraid to stand up to him. And they're afraid of what the world looks like when Donald Trump is gone because all they do now is focus on his needs and his interest. They have no vision, no platform, no idea of what they stand for once he's gone. I mean, well, it's also going to be, we're going to find out soon enough because a year from now, once the midterms are over JD, Marco, they're all going to have to make a decision and start running. That'll be really

fun to watch when he's just like paralyzing them. They're scared to go to Iowa. They're just going to fly over. But it's like, it's like going to have to have it at some point. I do think that the lame duck thing is the most benign explanation for why Trump might continue to say this. Like say he's not going to try, right?

Then the reason he's doing this is to avoid appearing like a lame duck. It's the reason why people who seem like they have no chance of running for president at all or might not run for president continue to let it let people think that they might run for president so that their interviews get a little more attention yeah yeah same kind of idea of course trump doesn't have to wait till 2028 to screw with our elections we got a few before then that he could really fuck up exciting including the 2025 elections one week from

today trump is already trying to frame an expected loss on prop 50 here in california that's the redistricting uh ballot initiative as illegitimate on sunday afternoon he wrote a post about how the stealing of the 2020 election was a much bigger deal than the NBA betting scandal. And he urged the Justice Department, which now takes orders directly from Trump, to keep investigating 2020. If not, he wrote, quote, it will happen again, including the upcoming midterms, no mail-in or early voting, yes to voter ID. Watch how totally dishonest the California prop vote is. Millions of ballots being shipped. Get smart Republicans before it is too late.

This came just days after DOJ announced that it would deploy election monitors to polling places in California and New Jersey next week. I love it. I know you talked to Mark about this, but how common or uncommon is this? And what specifically should we be worried about just a couple DOJ officials just watching the ballot box? I don't know what's going on. So I talked to Mark about this. And I think the way in which this is most concerning is this is a pretext for 2026. That is the fear.

Like Donald Trump will not be able to undo the results of Prop 50. He can make trouble in one county in New Jersey. And as Mark points out, he's not doing this in Virginia where there's another statewide election because there's a Republican governor. So this is a lot about pretext for what they will say after and what they will try to do in future elections. I also just want to say, like, I voted in Prop 50 over the weekend.

I dropped my ballot off at. Thank you for your vote. Yeah. Who'd you vote for? I voted for, I voted for putting a knife in that fucking independent commission. You're an Arnold guy. You know. opposite.

But, you know, I went to the Presbyterian church in Korea town to drop off my ballot. And it's the most... Did you light on fire when you walked in? Yeah. Take away, ma. I was like, this is all fake. You sweet, you sweet Korean neighbors, you're all part of some kind of a scheme. Why didn't you mail it back?

I always like dropping it off. I like the feeling of dropping it off, handing it in, seeing it go in the box. Yeah, it feels good. And Ari wanted to vote in person, so we did. together. Each voted twice, as is our way. That's what we get away with. It's pretty quiet. But, you know, you're in this, it was the first day of early voting and they were, or early and early voting. And they were so sweet and careful about the rules and wanting everybody. And it's such a wholesome and democratic experience. And it just stands in such contrast to this thing that could only

be persuasive to you if you've, I don't know, no contact with the actual world and the actual people running elections in, in California. But all that aside, like, Has Chavez made any updates to the Dominion voting machines? No, I called him. He said he was still dead. It was, yeah, there was a little shrine to him, which was interesting. People lighting little candles. It's very sort of multicultural, in a sense.

But it was just a, like, it was just a reminder to this. It's all such fucking bullshit. But like, to the Mark Elias point about it is, yeah, there is part of the Voting Rights Act has election monitors as part of it. What matters is that this DOJ is not run by any of those. previous attorneys general. This is Donald Trump's Department of Justice, and this is a illegitimate use of election monitoring as a pretext for calling elections false and using it to ramp up to something bigger and more dangerous in 2026, which Mark talks about in their conversation. Well, they said millions of ballots being shipped. Like, you mean mailed to us? Because we all got

we get our ballots mailed to us in California. Also, it's not the most important thing, but the NBA betting scandal part of that truth social post is very funny to me because, first of all, uh, cosplay Cash Patel, like, clearly thought this was a huge deal. And he, like, went to the press conference in New York. It wore his little special FBI whistleblower, windbreaker thing or whatever because he wanted credit. And also, it's not just like an NBA story. It's about the mob, like the five families, La Cosa Nostra, rigging card games, the way sports gambling is impacting a billion dollar industries. Like, it's a huge deal. But Trump had to diminish his own DOJ and make it about himself, which is just kind of funny. Well, he had to go back to his core message. He's very, I mean,

it was a he's like, I'm just going to use the NBA thing as a way. and to get to my core message. He's going to Pokemon go to the insurrection. There's a way to do where he's like, hey, great job DOJ busting this thing. You know what else is important? This. I hope you'll approach it with the same vigor. No, he's just a dick about it.

But also, I mean, look, the monitoring by DOJ of our elections is obviously bad. It will happen in just democratic districts and like places where people of color live. And especially in California, it's like some of the most heavily Latino parts of the state. In Jersey, it's like one county, I think, with a lot of immigrants. There is a concern that they'll just. collect information that Trump will then feed into his, you know, disinformation propaganda machine. But also, it's just very dumb because in California, I think the 2021 special recall election was 91% vote by mail. The last cycle was, I think, 80% mail-in ballots. So you're not monitoring

that much of the election, sir, you know, most of us are voting from home unless you're sending DOJ people to all of our houses to watch us fill out the ballot. Or just like hanging out of the post office. Yeah. Also, you know, D.J is not sending people to Virginia because Democrats are going to win big. And also because there's a Republican governor. So we haven't talked much about Mike Johnson's refusal to swear in a Democrat Adelaide de Grahalva for a house seat that she won over a month ago now. But Tommy, you and I were talking the other day about how this could be a sign of things to come for the 2026 midterms. You want to expand on your concern there? I don't think that was me. Wasn't that not you? Wouldn't that be a funny answer. That was Dan? No, we weren't talking about this. In part because I was talking to our very radicalized redistricting friend, Brian Tyler Cohen, has been very focused on this as well. We should just say, look, what is driving his refusal to seat Rahalva is because she would be the 218th member to sign a discharge expedition that would force the release of the Epstein files.

So this is all part of a giant cover-up of one of the most disgusting sexual predators in modern American history. Just worth noting. There's the cover up that keeps on happening. Yeah. So I'm not a lawyer or an expert in this. I should have run into your interview and screamed to the mic at Elias. But the way it's been explained to me is like the Constitution is not self-executing. There's not like a clear statute that says when a member of Congress need to be sworn in.

Often there's language like new members shall be sworn in by ex date from the election, but that's not the case here. So I'm told it's just it's not unconstitutional, not to swear. And it's just a huge breach of norms. And so much of our democracy is propped up on norms, which are. are being shredded in the Trump era. And I think there's a lot of concern that this, the Arizona AG has a lawsuit trying to force Johnson to seat her. And if that fails, that could create, that could create legal precedent that seems to bolster his argument. And a lot of experts seem to think he is almost certain to lose because you're basically asking the courts to adjudicate or

dictate how the Speaker runs the House of Representatives, including elections. And SCOTUS in the past has found that Congress is the ultimate authority on how to handle those elections, as we learned. in 2021, 2020. So, you know, it's just, it's concerning that you can imagine a scenario going forward where there's closely contested midterm elections at 2026, and Johnson is like, oh, we're just not going to seat all those ones, the Dems won. By the way, he just seated to members who won special elections in Florida within like 24 hours after their election, even though they were not in session.

Yeah, I worry about this a lot ever since I read Steve Posner, the professor, wrote in the bulwark like a month or two ago. This piece about what Johnson might do in the midterms. So in the Constitution, it says, each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns, and qualifications of its own members. And what that means is say you have an election that's decided by a couple votes, 20 votes, 100 votes, whatever. There's a recount. State certifies it for either the Republican or the Democrat. But then you go to Congress and say, I don't trust the state certification, and we need another investigation of the election. So the House Rules Committee or some committee in the House then can do their own investigation.

And then the House, without any judicial review, can make the final vote on who to seat. And in the last, since the first session of Congress in 1700s, 128 races have been overturned out of 35,000. So it doesn't happen often, but it has happened before where the house decides to seat someone. So I didn't get into it in too much depth because I was really, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dark Democratic news and we were trying to get to the places where we have some levers and this is to come. But what Elias was talking about with me, which worth listening to is that there's a lot of shenanigans Johnson can get up to in the lame duck who the clerk is actually matters. Like, there's, like, details that will matter because you're thinking about this with norms, not laws. But on the other hand, come 2027, Mike Johnson isn't the Speaker of the House. He's not, he may have sort of more power ostensibly than other members, but the clerk will call the role, you know?

So there's, like, that doesn't mean they can't get up to a lot of dangerous and nasty shenanigans, but it's just, in part we just don't know because we never been in that situation. I keep thinking about that slogan from 2024, it turned out to be Trump's best. slogan too big to rig for all this stuff yeah it's gonna be too big to rig because you know you you have democratic seats they're winning by one two percent you're like okay well that's that's it that's gonna be hard i mean it they'll can still try to do it but that's gonna be much harder to be a lot of public opinion you know yes i also do think that like i don't put anything past republicans uh these days but uh republicans want to be seated in a democratic house in the future there are some like sort of natural system kind of defenses that are built

in, Republicans not wanting to gerrymander themselves into tough races every couple of years. Like, there are natural— Caucus isn't 100% crazy just yet. Right. And, you know, that— Again, another reason why— I don't see a lot of long-term thinking these days. I don't know.

I don't have a lot of confidence in that one. Not in all of them. Not in all of them. You don't need to be all— You'd have to get almost every single Republican to make this work. Last election, Trump tried to overturn the 2020 presidential that he lost. Still a big focus for him and his government. On Friday, Trump added a few names to his list of people he wants his Justice Department

to prosecute. former special counsel Jack Smith, former Attorney General Merrick Garland, former FBI director Chris Ray, and former deputy AG Lisa Monaco. Trump seemed to accuse them of signing off on the collection of Republican lawmakers' phone information in 2023 as part of the inquiry into Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, which he also accused them of rigging, even though he was president and none of them except for Ray weren't government at the time. The Post concluded, these radical left lunatics should be

prosecuted for their illegal and highly unethical behavior. So in the post, Trump referred to Operation Arctic Frost. Anyone want to explain what that is and why Republicans are trying to make it famous? Tom, you want to do Arctic Frost? Sure. What they're really mad about, so this is the FBI effort to look into the false elector scheme and Trump's efforts to steal the 2020 election. The FBI sought what is called tolling data for the cell phones of eight or nine lawmakers from January 4th until 7th, 2021. And what that tells you is who these people called, when they called them, the duration of the call and the location of the call, not the contents of the call.

Like Josh Hawley was saying, I was wiretapped. That's not what happened here. She's basically what Trump was saying in his post, too. They were recorded. Yeah. And look, like that tolling information, it's incredibly invasive. You can learn a lot about a person about who they called when and how long, et cetera. But, I mean, it isn't a wiretap, just if we're being technical.

And so, you know, this was just sort of looking into who. he may have been scheming with to try to overturn the results of elections. It seems like the kind of thing you would want to look into in the course of this kind of investigation, but now we're going to arrest Merrick Garland, I guess, seems like the thing. By the way, like, you know, we have, you know, senators like Ron Johnson kind of had with envelopes full of fake electors in their pockets, right? Like, it's not a, like, these guys are acting as if, uh, the idea that they would ever be part of a scheme to overturn the election is so ridiculous and ludicrous that it defies imagination, a fucking disgrace. Meanwhile, Josh Holly put his fucking fist up in the air. A bunch of Republicans

tried to overturn the election. It's completely reasonable to look into what their actual involvement was in the scheme. And they're trying to, because they need to pretend as though the insurrection either didn't happen or was some kind of a protest with a few broken windows that everyone is politicized, they have to now pretend that any sense in which this might have been a broader conspiracy that involved them is offensive to even suggest. You guys see any of the excerpts from John Carl's new book? I have a copy of it in my house, but I'm not ready yet. So I just saw one excerpt I think he tweeted out.

Do you know that Jack Smith and his team wanted to move to disqualify Eileen Cannon as judge? because of all the shit she was pulling and at least tried to, you know, wanted to at least file a motion to see if they could do that. And you know who stopped them? Merrick Garland's Justice Department. Norms. Norms.

So, yeah, that's the guy that was spying on Republican members of Congress and trying to get Donald Trump. He was the same, he was a double agent. A lot of Trump's biggest benefactors are getting prosecuted. Jim Comey, Merrick Garland. It's true.

Fucking, that put him in the norms way. at the federal prison, they're all gonna fucking end up in. It's a garland way. He is the, he is the, it's a monument to, yeah, I mean, you know, he's the embodiment of norms. We really did bend over backwards to say,

like, maybe it does just take this long, maybe it is this hard, maybe it was this slow, absolutely fucking unbelievable. Or bent over the other way, you know. I guess I should. Nice to be bent over one way or the other. Can we bend over forwards? That would hurt.

Yeah, we only Hey, John, a lesson in politics. You can only bend over one way, my friend. That's what. And Pilates. I think we're on the same page. Pod Save America is brought you by Aura Frames. Are you looking for a simple but meaningful gift idea

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Aura20. That's A-U-R-A-Frams.com promo code, ORA20. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. Trump and MAGA are also quite focused on elections that have little to do with him, like the New York mayoral race. The president is openly predicting that Zoran Mamdani will win next Tuesday, telling reporters, quote, we're going to have a communist as the mayor of New York but adding here's the good news he's got to go through the White House everything goes through the White House

at least this White House it does talk about a fucking mob boss right Trump has threatened to illegally cut all federal funding for New York if Mamdani wins and some Republicans in Congress are making even darker threats at least two House members

are pushing to look into whether the federal government can strip Mamdani of his citizenship and Speaker Mike Johnson took time out of his shutdown press conference to attack Akeem Jeffries for his endorsement of Mamdani on Friday. He called it, quote, shocking. And along with the rest of the party is arguing that, at the very least, Mamdani is now the face of the National Democratic Party.

Meanwhile, 13,000 people turned out at Forest Hill Stadium in Queens on Sunday night to hear AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Governor Kathy Hokel rally with Mumdani. Which of these don't belong. These are a handful of people showed up for Hockel. Poor Hockel. Here's a taste of what they heard. It is a time such as today when demanding affordable housing is considered a radical and outlandish act. That we can afford our lives, our groceries, our transit is considered an outlandish and radical act.

We are not the outlandish ones, New York City. They want us to think we are crazy, we are sane. And what the oligarchs feel. What they fear is that people will start understanding that this country belongs to us, not them. Together, New York, we're going to freeze the... Together, New York, we're going to make buses fast in? Together, New York, we're going to deliver universal? We will make our city one where every person who calls it home can live a dignified life.

life. No New Yorker should ever be priced out of anything they need to survive. Sounds so radical and dangerous and hateful, huh? Did you guys have a chance to watch the full Zoran speech? I did. God, he's really good.

He is just, like, effortlessly charming. The speech started, and he goes, you know, a candidate is only as good as the team around him. And right now, I'd like to asked that team, can you please turn on the teleprompter? Because this is all going off the dome. It was so funny. And like, God, it was like brutal on Cuomo. Absolutely brutal. Like, let our cheers ring out so that he can hear us in his $8,000 month apartment in Westchester. If he's there for the night, and his puppet master in the White House can hear us. Like, I know, they are

they are running through the tape. Yes. Hamming Bill Ackman in the billionaire class. And just like, it was fantastic. It was a great speech. Good for him. Yeah, he's, he's in, extraordinary politician. He just is. And like, there's some, there's a small thing. So there's these housing measures on the ballot in New York, uh, and Republican and, uh, Brayware, Curtis Sliwa has come out against them. Cuomo is in favor. A lot of people on the city council are against them. It's like a classic sort of like YIMB debate. There's some, uh, antip, there's, there's some, um, opposition from unions and from left groups. And he actually hasn't said, like, he's, mom, he hasn't said how he's going to vote on it, right? And, and, and he's, he's, he's,

It just sort of speaks to the fact that, like, there's one thing that he's doing that I think is, like, makes him a really amazing politician is the ways in which he is a politician, while remaining, like, authentic and charismatic, enthusiastic and, like, smart about how he's running this campaign. If you watch his interviews, he's so disciplined, he's so disciplined yet because you know where he's coming from, you know it's coming from a place of authenticity. He has the kind of the space to do that. But here, he's trying to kind of be careful because he's for freezing the rent. He knows that there's some opposition to that from people that think they want market race housing and that's going to sort of hurt the situation. He's come out more in favor of some market rate building and development, right, recognizing because of evolved on that issue.

As you see that, like, he is this kind of defiant figure, like, represents the left in this bold way, exciting and in the way, while at the same time being kind of like thoughtful about politics and a number of issues, kind of meeting with, like, leaders in business. You may not like him, but like he's sort of charming them, right? Like, there's something about the way he's doing this that, like, belies, but beneath the enthusiasm is just an incredibly sophisticated political operation. So you're on the fence. Yeah. I mean, between him and Cuomo, it's a tough fucking call. The ghoul who thinks it's a waste of his time to even be participating in this election, it is unbelievable.

Not running through the tape. Zorn was a great speaker. It was a great speech. I mean, he obviously going to get punched in the face by, like, the reality of governing that city and city hall and the state and whatever the hell Trump's going to do them. I would just like to quickly point out that Hakeem Jeffries, like, you're still getting the worst attacks from Speaker Johnson and Republicans by waiting to endorse. But in the process, you got the entire left mad at you? I cannot. What was the thinking here?

I'd still like to know. Also, we are going to be doing like Tupac at Coachella, Bernie hologram speeches at rallies in 2050, and they're still going to play. Yeah. And do you think it's so same speech. It's still, like, he's so consistent, but it works. Still hits. What do you guys make of the intense focus on Mamdani by Trump and Republicans? the threats they're making and their attempts to make him, which will certainly heat up should he win the election, the new face of the Democratic Party nationally.

I mean, I do think initially it was an attempt to scare voters away from voting for him, but I think they'd probably given up on that by now. I mean, my God, the Islamophobia that this man has dealt with in the last few months is just disgusting. It is so rampant. It's been rampant in Republican politics for a very long time. but the overt nature of it in the Trump era is just hideous. Like this woman, I think she was what, like the anti-Semitism czar under the Trump administration posted a photo of the planes hitting the Twin Towers and a man jumping out of one of the upper floors of the building and was like vote accordingly. I mean, it's just like sickening shit. But also, obviously we know like that's a big piece of the puzzle for Trump. And then he just wants to paint every liberal run city is a hellhole filled with crime and corruption.

And so he's getting started early. He's laying the groundwork early, starting now, because he's just going to hammer it going forward. Will he be successful against Mamdani? We don't know. Like, Mamdani's a pretty nimble politician, but Trump will be able to punish him in weird ways that we probably haven't thought of. Yeah, I think, I mean, I put these into a couple categories. Like the attempt by now two House members and several MAGA influencers online to, continue to push that they're going to hopefully denaturalize Zoran Mamdani and deport him.

And I take, I mean, talk about taking things seriously. I take that very seriously. Very much. Because Stephen Miller has wanted to expand denaturalizations, which are very rare and complicated and hard to do, but he wants to like supercharge it. He said this publicly for this term. They're looking into it. And if Donald Trump and the ruling party decide that they're going to try,

try to deport a leader of the opposition who runs America's biggest city by stripping him of his citizenship. Then I think every single American should like take to the streets and every single politician, Democrat or Republican, whether you like Zoran or not, especially if you don't, I would say, should stand up and fight that and protest that. Because that is like, because that is some dark shit to be like what it is. It is Islam is, it's Islamophobia for sure. And then there's specific Islamophobia that he has faced. It also intersects with. the xenophobia, the larger xenophobia and the anti-immigrant push. And it's also just like the most authoritarian shit you can imagine that this guy, this is the guy who runs

now the biggest city in America and he's at a different party and I don't like him. And so I'm going to try to deport him. Yeah, which is why I don't think it would ever succeed. He is a citizen in this country. And like just on the principle of it, a naturalized citizen is just as much a citizen as someone born here. That is that is the way it works. And if that is fragile, then citizenship itself is fragile. It's incredibly dangerous, dangerous regardless how you feel about the politics. It seems like, like, I remember when I talked to Wally Jihad about Mamdani a few weeks ago, part of this was about what happens when someone, like, from the left, has a chance to govern, right? Like, he's going to put it on its feet, right? And there's going to be compromises.

That's probably going to anger people on one side of his coalition. He's going to pursue policies that people more on the center left predict aren't going to work. Maybe they'll be more successful than they think. Maybe they won't be. He has to govern and put his governing on his feet, right? He's bringing in people that, like, he's going to keep the police commissioner in place. Like, he's bringing Brad Lander. Like, he's thinking about the people that are going to be part of the group that are going to help him govern.

Now, Trump is going to try to use the powers of the federal government to make him fail, not for the ways in which his policies work or don't work, but to try to make him a failure before he's even long. in the door. And so that to me is what makes that so dangerous, right? They want to claim that he's a communist, danger, anti-American, whatever, racism, Islamophobia, throw it all at him, and then try to make sure he fails before he's even had a chance. And, you know, he also doesn't have the right to do that to deny funds to the city of New York because or the state of New York because he doesn't like the mayor, but he'll try and not to fight it. And that'll become something

that occupies his mayorship, even though it shouldn't. It'll make his job harder. And, but, you know, that's that's the job i'll say republicans have been trying to make aOC the face of the national democratic party for several years now before that it was polosi like they always try to take yeah sort of the furthest left politician and and make the face of the make that person the face of the party or the oldest face or the oldest face right i think if i think if you're a i'm trying model good behavior here because i think the hakeem geoffrey strategy as we as we acknowledge probably didn't work that well. Like if someone says, oh, you're the party of Mamdani now and you don't agree with Mamdani, it's like big ten party. There's like, you know that the people of New York

nominated him in a Democratic primary and then the broader electorate voted for him as mayor if he ends up winning. And so I respect that process and I'll work with him and it's not that hard, right? If you really don't agree with him and you're worried about it, right? Like, if you like him, you should just say, I like, I like, I like him and I like his policies and great. But like if you don't, I don't think it's a real hard thing. Just be like, yeah, he's, he's got different beliefs than me. We're a big tent party and that's that. That's what made it all that's what makes the Hakeem Jeffries thing's waiting so long, so strange. First of all, you were right, didn't get him anything, but it kind of is an insult to both the

people that like Mahmdani, people that like Hackeem Jeffries, people that don't like Mumdani? It's like, it's where, you know, is Mamdani the faith? I remember this question is it is, who's the future of the Democratic Party? Is it Abigail Spanberger or is it Zoran Mamdani and we have to be confident enough to say yes like it's both of them it's going to be a big enough party for everybody from Federman to Mamdani and that like part of our job is we're not a cult like them part of our job as being part of this like big coalition uh is like kind of resisting the effort to divide ourselves based on whether you like momdani's politics more than say you like uh like the politics of whether of of like of Mallory McMorrow or whoever it might be because like

they want to make us one thing we can't let that work in either direction We have to just say, like, this is for all of us, and anybody's welcome. All right, let's talk about the shutdown, because the government has now been closed for almost a month. We're a little over a week away from this becoming the longest shutdown in history. And on November 1st, the pain starts to get even worse. For one thing, that's when people can start buying health insurance for next year through the Affordable Care Act, where the average premium is set to rise by 30% if Republicans keep refusing to pass an extension of the subsidies. That is the biggest increase in years.

Like 17 million people it will hit. November 1st is also when the federal government will run out of money for the food assistance that 40 million low-income Americans count on, known as SNAP benefits, partly because the Trump administration is refusing to spend contingency funds to keep it going. Other impacted programs include Head Start, which funds education, health, and nutrition services for almost a million kids, nutrition assistance for low-income mothers and babies, and federal paychecks. Meanwhile, flight delays are starting to pile up. There was a ground stop here at LAX over the weekend, apparently because of air traffic controller shortages. On Sunday, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy was asked whether it's even safe to fly now. And he did not respond with an unqualified yes, which, you know, gave me a little extra anxiety. Don't love it.

And yet, despite all of this, Mike Johnson still has the House in Recess, which he said on Monday, is actually a great thing for all involved. Let's listen. I don't know what the Democrats are doing other than publicity stuff. But I can tell you, the House Republicans, they're doing some of the most meaningful work of their careers. They're in their districts working around the clock. We're at their constituents, helping them not only to negotiate the crisis that's been created by this Democrat shutdown, but all the other matters that they need to attend to. The most meaningful work of their careers. He's just so bad.

That's just not compelling. What are you talking about, dude? When I'm legislating, I can't really be present for what I need to do to make Donald Trump happy. now I can really work it. You know, now I can really put my head into what I am trying to do, really get at all the parts of what it takes to make Donald Trump feel satisfied.

Yeah. Wow. What's the app called? Covenant. Covenant eyes. Anyway. You guys write laws for a living, right? Could do that.

Could do that. Just checking. Could do some lot of work there. Also on Monday, the country's largest union representing federal workers urged both parties to reopen the government as soon as possible. Do you guys think any of this should change the calculus for Democrats who have so far stood strong and have been reading encouraging polls?

I don't think the AFGE comments, the big government union comments should change the calculus. Or any of it, just more broadly too. Well, yeah, a bit just on the edge point. I mean, I do think they were saying the same thing before the shutdown started. Like Democrats have said, we're closing down the government to prevent people from taking their health care costs maybe double. I just saw an article that New Jerseyans who purchase health insurance through the state's exchange will see an average increase of nearly 175% in their premiums next year. That's what Democrats are fighting for. That's what we're fighting to fix.

The problem has not been addressed, not even close. So I think we need to stick to our guns here. I know it's going to get really tough. But I'm just not seeing anything that would change my calculus, even Sean Duffy not being good at the job. Also, he wants to run NASA, too, by the way. great makes sense guys in outer fucking space so the the the snap example that you mentioned i think it's worth talking about for a second so uh there's this contingency fund uh for uh funding gaps for snap it's about like five or six uh billion dollars it's sitting there they got it the uh

uh USDA uh had a memo that said in the event of a shutdown that's one of the contingency will have this money, and we can use it to help people. It doesn't cover everything, but it'll work for a time through a funding gap. That was posted on their website. That was something they all seemed to believe was true. They took that down, and now they're saying, oh, no, legally, we can't use the money during a shutdown. Now, Trump was willing to kind of, you know, extra legally move money around to pay troops

at the Pentagon, both moving money inside of that budget and also getting money from the outside. We're paying ICE agents, too. But when it comes to supplemental nutrition assistance, they're going to be. going to draw the line. Why are they doing it? They want to make the shutdown worse for people. They want to make people feel the pain of not, like of kids, to feel the pain of not having the food assistance that their parents rely on. And then they want to visit that pain. But it's for a good cards. But for good cards, cutting health care. The sacrifice you're making is so that others, many others, can make the sacrifice of paying more in health care premiums. And keep in

mind so that they can keep the filibuster. Because again, Republican could end the shutdown tomorrow. And so that they keep in place the several trillion dollars in tax cuts that they want for the richest human beings on Earth. So to me, like, that should be galvanizing for what this fight is about. Like, that's what they're willing to do.

They're willing to, they have the power to send out checks to people, to provide food assistance. And they're choosing not to make the shutdown worse so that they can visit political pain on Democrats. But that's a small example of the larger way in which they're governing, which is what the shutdown is

about. Yeah. Yeah, I would just keep saying, like, look, either sit down with us to talk about ways to prevent premiums from increasing or end the shutdown yourself by changing the Senate rules if you think it's so painful. And the point of Speaker Johnson's bizarre spin there is that Republicans are not even in Washington. Right. They're not even in session to come together and meet and figure out a way through this. Also, come November 1st, a lot of people think, you know, once the, so the open enrollment in ACA and the Affordable Care Act, the windows open now so people can go shopping this week and look online and see what the prices are, so people are starting to realize that the prices are going up. And November 1st, you can start enrolling. And most of the experts think that, you know, once you get past November 1st, even if they make a deal, they're not going to stop, be able to stop premium increases from hitting in 2026. At best, if they extend the subsidies, they'll be able to save 2027. But we're getting to the point now where, you're it's just going to be too late to even fix the premium increases. So then it's like, then what are they doing?

I didn't realize that. Yeah, it's getting very, very late to, because they, you know, like, they think if a deal was made like by the end of this week, they could go back in, the states could recalculate, and the insurance companies could recalculate, but it's like, it's, it's getting much, much tougher. you buy Helix. Helix mattresses are great. John has some here. You bet I do. We have a couple helix mattresses as well, including for our eldest child. And super comfortable. Great.

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off site wide. Make sure you enter our Show name after checkout so they know we sent you. Helixleep.com slash crooked. One of the major leverage points for Republicans was supposed to be paychecks for the troops. But as you've probably seen, magabillionaire Timothy Mellon has stepped in anonymously to put up $130 million to offset some of the missed checks and benefits. Not the way things usually work. No.

Private donations to, that's what we have a tax system, actually, and a government. Right. Might be illegal. ostensibly. But what do you guys think? Sure seems illegal. There's a law called the Anti-Deficiency Act that prohibits federal agencies from spending money beyond what Congress is appropriated. Also, just as a practical matter, $130 million, that's a lot of money. But there's 1.3 million U.S. service members, so it's like $100 a lot of U.S. service members. So it's not really going to cover the shortfall. I'm not sure what they're going to do with it. It covers one third of one day's pay for the force. That's right on. AEI came out with. One missile. It's just, it's just weird. Like this whole thing. thing is weird. I don't know that I want to focus only on the donation to pay for the troops because that feels like historically good messaging. But like, you know, I'd love to see Democrats total up all the special interest money going towards doing favors for Donald Trump. Like all the corporations that are swooping in to bribe him by paying for the new Trump ballroom. That's part of it.

Like there's all the money that's the crypto cash, the real estate deals, the plane from the Qataris. He's like, just we've got to find a way to drive more attention to this stuff and put more scrutiny on it and just ask why. What does Timothy Mellon getting in exchange? Why would anyone do this? It's very weird. I'll say, I'll tell you what I don't like. A privately funded army. No, right.

Under the control of the president and funded by one of his biggest donors. Yeah, I don't think that's a good. I don't think that's bad messages. Constitution is pretty clear. It's pretty clear. The power of the purse belongs to that guy. Timothy Mellon. So, yeah.

He can raise an army and Donald Trump gets to control it. Cool. They're a lot, like, you know, this is one of those classic things. Like, you know, we've been trained by years in kind of old politics. It's like money for troops good, right? And you get attacked if you don't want money for troops. Yep. So this guy's going to make $130 million donation.

It's hard to total up the fortune of the Mellon family. It's vast. It's vast fortunes. But it's, you know, somewhere around, let's say, $14 billion by some estimates, benefiting vastly from Trump's tax cuts, billionaires. was added a trillion dollars in net net worth during Trump's first term. One year of the tax law gives $117 billion to the top 1% of tax payers. Like, I'm glad this guy wants to feel like a patriot because he paid the troops for 45 minutes or the better part of the day.

Hey, it was an anonymous donation. Like, and you know what? Like, I'd rather the money go there. Until some reporter dug it up. I'd rather the money go there. I also think air traffic controllers deserve to be paid. I think nurses at the Veterans Affairs deserve to be paid. Talk about who's making an anonymous donation to the air traffic controllers. Yeah, maybe we could have a system where we get to the airport. We can pay them ourselves. Everybody, the pilots can go around with a little fucking bag. We go, I put money in to pay the air traffic controls.

We have a way to do this. And, like, you know, Donald Trump understands as well as anybody that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Like, maybe this guy was moved. His heartstrings were tugged. He also apparently donated money to find Amelia Earhart's planes. He seems to have an emotional relationship to his money and he does things with it as his as he can because we live in a society with an elite class of people that inherited vast wealth

like this person. But there's a reason we don't want the ballroom to be paid for by corporations. And we don't want to go to the crypto.com arena state fucking dinner. Because like we live in a democracy and we collectively decide where the money goes. We have a great way for billionaires to pay for the military. It is through the tax system. And they have made that more difficult while allowing this man to feel like a hero of the week for covering the first shift. And that's bullshit.

Well, one more clear-cut example of Trump. Unilaterally inflicting economic pain on the whole country is his punishing tariff regime, which is why inflation is now higher than it's been since the Biden years. The current president doesn't seem to know or care. Late last week, Trump halted trade talks with Canada and raised tariffs by 10% on all the goods we get from our neighbor to the north because of an ad run by the province of Ontario that dared to feature excerpts from a 1987 Ronald Reagan speech where Reagan cautioned against imposing tariffs. And the Katie Perry Trudeau thing. Everyone's in a while you feel fucking stupider just saying the sentence. Yeah. Like what?

American farmers are also suffering from the tariffs, especially soybean farmers. Thanks to retaliation from China. Not to worry, though. Because if you are a soybean farmer, hedge fund manager turned Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, he wants you to know that he is you. He is you. I am him. In case you don't know it, I'm actually a soybean farmer. so I have felt this pain too.

I could watch that clip like 10 times. That hits so hard. Can we play that clip again? One more time. Run it back. In case you don't know it, I'm actually a soybean farmer. So I have felt this pain too. He's stiff in the weirdest way.

I don't, was that a joke? Maybe he's a yield farmer. He owns soybean farmers. He's a soybean slum lord. Yeah, he's a soybean slum lord. He owns $25 million worth of soybean and corn farmland in North Dakota. So he owns most of North Dakota. So he's a soybean farmer.

He actually, he just owns North Dakota. Right. Is what really was going on there. He apparently receives as much as $1 million a year in rental income from his soybean farmland. He is worth half a billion dollars, the Treasury Secretary, who is a soybean farmer. King Louis the 16th could barely sleep with all the racket outside the castle all these people saying how hungry they are.

We're all feeling the pain of pre-revolution France. I like it's a tired observation, but imagine if a Democrat said that. Like Fox News, what they would do to the Yale-educated protege of George Soros who is now Treasury Secretary and calling himself a farmer.

They still call Tim Geithner some Wall Street banker, and the guy never worked on Wall Street. Very good point. He was never even the Wall Street. It's also like, okay, so historically, China's been the top buyer of U.S. soybeans. It was like $12 billion annually. China stopped buying U.S. soybeans to punish us in the trade war. They've been buying soybeans from the Brazilians and Argentina, et cetera.

So what Bessent is actually doing there is bragging about the gigantic conflict of interest that he personally has in being the one to negotiate this deal with China, trying to get them to come back and purchase more of the U.S. soybeans. And so he recently on Sunday announced that he negotiated the Chinese to do a, quote, substantial purchase of U.S. soybeans. It's not clear what that means because the Chinese have already bought all the soybeans they need to make whatever the fuck you make out of it. And so it's not clear how much more they will buy. But like Trump keeps stepping on this same rake.

Like in 2018 and 2019, China stopped buying soybeans to hurt U.S. farmers. We had to bail them out. It seems like we're coasting towards that outcome again. Do you think, um, Tofu is one thing you can make. Yeah. Soi sauce. There we go.

Adamami. Again, soy boys. Do you, you guys think American consumers understand that the higher prices will all be paying or a necessary sacrifice to punish Ontario for running a TV ad that made Donald Trump mad? It's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, folks. They ran a nasty TV ad up in Ontario, so now you're all paying more money. I'm raising the cost of goods at Walmart. Because I would get a mess out of context.

I was mad about an ad in Ontario that featured that was honest that featured Ronald Reagan just saying something we're so fucking down far down the rabbit hole year I'm telling you it's not going to help the legal case I was about to say

the reason he's not consulting Congress on the tariffs is because it's a national security emergency yeah I do think back to that ruling by immigrant about how like you can be deferential to the president while recognizing that words have meeting Did Congress really intend to make the president a kind of a fucking petulant tariff god who can punish speech in other countries he doesn't like, or actually in this case, speech in our own country from another country that he doesn't like with a 10% tariff on all these fucking businesses, domestic businesses, domestic buyers, domestic consumers, because he's kind of fucking annoyed that Ronald Reagan's words are being thrown in his face to send a signal what to other countries, not to dare speak ill of him in our public. public arena they also already stopped the at yeah it wasn't like Mark Carney did

but the tariffs remain so such a petulant baby do you guys um there's some tough news after all this you guys see that the argument at a national poll uh what would happen if Trump and Kamala ran against each other in 2028 no you want to know you want to know the yeah tell me kind of I do 51 49 Kamala so she I just so on she is on top 50 149 so there's some progress Yeah, M-O-E baby I just hate living in a country where it's like Trump could bomb New York and it's like

48 52. He did lose some of those young people that he won in in 2024 but the base is the base remains I think it was funny. The approval rating the approval rating you made this point when the approval rating has basically been static since about 2015. It's just it's it really is

it's innervating that's for sure also we're still trapped in this world where like you regularly hear someone cite baskets of deplorables as this horrible thing that happened right they're still slapping Hillary Clinton around for that and Trump Trump post an AI video of himself dumping shit on Harry Sisson I believe in a bunch of Democratic and everyone everyone who protested in the New York Times article I was reading about it that mentioned it today said he dumped brown liquid I was like I think we know what the liquid couldn't tell what it was couldn't tell what it was I mean I think that's I mean honestly I think it's fair reporting. You say they go find out what he, it's artorial and it's art, it's, it's the artist's anti, AI, AI liquid. Yeah, like, this is where I kind of, like, stepping back to, like, there's so many confident people about, like, the direction the Democratic Party should go and, like, this should be our message, this shouldn't be our message.

Like, these are the people that understand what the future of the party is or how, this is where Biden went wrong, whatever. And like, I just, like, it is so hard to move people now. It is so hard. There's so many kind of, like, like, uh, uh, counter indicators all the time and like I just that's where I kind of like I find myself struggling to even like know what how we what we do in a situation where the president has launched an all out of assault on the economy through tariffs is applying them to our

biggest allies because he didn't like a television commercial the the wealthy landlord is doing interviews on CNBC referring to himself as a fucking soybean farmer yeah and Right. And to your point on votes not moving, right? Like Obama won Iowa twice. There was a great piece in the Times over the weekend about how Trump's policies are absolutely crushing Iowa. It's like a depression. It's like a local depression. It's a local depression. It's soybean farmers. It's Trump canceling all these wind energy projects. It's, uh, the immigration actions, getting rid of all the workers that work on these farms. Like these Iowa farmers are getting killed, but it's not leading some like populist revolt against him. They're kind of like, whoa, we don't. I mean, they guys, look, we had a big governor. race next year. Rob Sands running. Maybe he can pull this out. There's a big center race there as well. We'll see. But I'm also just, you know, polls are polls, but I'm interested in the results in the 2025 elections. See where we are. We'll get at least some read on where everyone is, or at least people in New Jersey, Virginia, New York City, and a few other states in California, after a week from Tuesday. All right. When we get back from the break, you'll hear Love it's

conversation with Mark Elias about our elections in the 22nd Amendment. Two quick things before we do that. A reminder, it's time to start holiday shopping, and we are ready for you at the Crooked store. We got merch from all your favorite crooked pods, plus holiday exclusives. You can now shop at crooked.com slash store, or if you're more of an in-person shopperper, do they come here?

A selection of our merch will be available at CrookedCon. Smart idea. Can we open up a brick and mortar here in the office? I was like, shit. Speaking of Cricket con, another reminder, we're just 10 days away. As I mentioned on the Friday show, I'm hosting a panel about Democratic messaging with Jen Saki, Faz Shakir, and Democratic

strategist Liz Smith, Rebecca Katz, and Adam Jenelson. Tommy and Ben are going to be doing a panel about what a forward-looking democratic foreign policy should look like in 2025. I'm looking backwards. We're also going to do it. I'm also doing a panel about, we're going to talk to some of the lead consultants on the 2025 races, whether they won or lost, what the lessons were, what we did right, what we got wrong, what they observed. So that'll be cool. I love that. And you did cut off the panelists and you and Ben's. Ro Kana and Yasim and Ansari are going to be on that panel, which is great. Excellent. Love it's going to be hosting a panel called Are We Having Fun Yet?

With Hassan Piker, Simone Sanders Townsend, Tim Miller and Jessica Tarloff. That's a fun. What a panel. It's going to be fun. We're talking about why Democrats seem like such downers and what it will take to... I don't know. Just listen to our show. I had a good ass time.

Yeah. Well, I'm in present company excluded. Of course. Tommy Lovett and Dan will also be doing. doing one-on-one interviews with Lena Kahn, Ruben Gallego, and Chris Murphy. And Alex Wagner is going to be talking with Andy Beshear. And on top of all of that, there's the Vote Save America Action Hub. To see the full schedule, get tickets, head to crookedcon.com.

That's where you get some action. That's right. That's be discussed. It's a whole hub for it. Yeah, it's like the Olympic Village. There'll be bold. Cricket condoms. No, you got it.

That's the point. You got it. You got where I was going. we're good because love it doesn't I was gonna say more yeah because we don't need them

why would you cut yeah oh we got some of that's right that's right that's right abundance fans there was just an

abundance joke yeah we promised there'll be some abundance bros in the house if you know what I'm saying that is the first

condom related abundance joke that has been told I don't know we can check with Ezra and Derek on that but I believe

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Mark Elias Leads the Elias Law Group and is the founder of Democracy Docket at a digital news organization dedicated to protecting democracy and voting rights. Mark, welcome back to the pod. Thanks for having me back. Lots to talk about all of it great. Steve Bannon said, is it really all great? It's all great. Steve Bannon said that Trump will get a third term and quote, people just ought to get accommodated with that. Trump didn't rule out a third term when asked about Bannon's comments. How seriously should we take this? So one of the things I've always said is that we got terrible advice to take Donald Trump seriously but not literally. I think we have to take him both literally and seriously. And so Donald Trump wants a third term. I fully expect he is going to try to

get a third term. That is, there is no constitutional loophole here. There's no legal way for him to seek a third term. There's no like special provision that Steve Bannon has found that none of us. But that won't stop Donald Trump from trying to do so anyway. Remember, he incited a violent insurrection in the nation's capital the last time he tried to take a term that wasn't his. Yeah. So that's why I'm of two minds of it. On the one hand, I think we need to say unequivocally, he will not have a third term. But we need to say that in a way that doesn't act as if it won't be something that is pursued that Donald Trump doesn't see as a possibility. To your point, there's no secret king mode inside of the Constitution that when Bannon says, oh, we have a plan, they have no access to any secret information that would make that possible. So then it's incumbent on us to understand what that plan is. could look like. And tell me if I'm wrong. One would be they just defy the Constitution. He just doesn't leave office. That's a possibility. And then the other is a whole collection of and runs around the Constitution. Like, you know, the Speaker of the House, No Rule says can't be a dog kind of stuff.

Which one are you more worried about? And how do you take it literally and seriously? Like, how do you prepare for something like this? Yeah, so I take the first more more seriously than the second because there is no end run around the Constitution. You know, like there's no, there's no, there's no secret way, like I said, for him to be the vice president or that. I mean, the closest thing there would be to a secret way would be, frankly, that he does what Vladimir Putin did after his first term, which is that someone else is technically the president, like, for example, Don Jr. And he is, he is just like the power behind the throne. But that's, but that's not an run around the Constitution. I mean, that's just, you know, that that's just is what it is. I think

what Steve Bannon and others have in mind, I suspect, is something that looks much more like January 6th. I mean, let's be clear. He already has military in a number of major cities in the United States. That number will grow. He is already building what would be, I don't remember if it's the sixth or the eighth largest military in the world in ICE. You know, like when you look at the by budget size, a force that will be very loyal to him. And, you know, we've recently learned that he's planning on deploying Department of Justice Monitor. in seven counties in California around a ballot, a state ballot initiative and in New Jersey in Passaic County, which is 43% Hispanic for a gubernatorial election. Now, I don't think he's going

to affect the outcome of those, but do I think he's doing that because he's looking forward to 2026 and then ultimately 2028? Sure. So I want to get the 2025 and 2026, but before we move on from this, you know, Steve Bannon makes this comment. And now we're having a conversation about how powerful and dangerous Donald Trump is. When whatever their plans are, Donald Trump doesn't want to be perceived as a lame duck. And is there any way in which you worry that we're, even in sort of following this lead, imbueing Trump with more power and political will than he actually has? No, and here's why.

Look, I represented President Biden in the aftermath of the 2020 election, and we won 64 of 65 cases. what those cases got more and more desperate over time. They got less and less meritorious over time. But they actually gained more and more political support among Republicans. You know, people don't remember this, but one of the last cases that went forward was the state of Texas suing four Democratic states directly in the Supreme Court to throw out the election results. Now, that case was never going to succeed. But what happened was that wound up getting the support of a majority, almost all of the Republican state attorneys general signed on to a amicus brief there. as did 126 House members.

Those 126 House members were led by and organized by a backbench Republican at the time from Louisiana named Mike Johnson. And 126 Republicans signed on to this effort. And then on the night of January 6th, after the violent insurrection, 139 Republicans supported that. So it actually gained support through January 6th. So I don't think this is going to succeed. I don't think Donald Trump, like I said, there's no secret plan. way that the military, I think, could be deployed to overturn the results of a free and fair election. But all of these things have to be treated seriously, because January 6 had to be

treated seriously. Those lawsuits had to be treated seriously. It didn't mean they were going to succeed. It just meant that you couldn't dismiss them. So people shouldn't be despairing about this. People shouldn't give Donald Trump powers he doesn't have because he doesn't have these powers. But we also should recognize that, like, he's not above using violence. You know, he's not above going outside the constitution. He's not above bulldozing part of the White House. And so we need to be prepared and we need to be serious-minded about it. But if we are, we will be able to prevent him from, you know, serving past his sell-by date on January 20th, 2029. Okay, so let's talk about how we do that. We have 2026, but before that we're here in 2025. DOJ has said they will monitor elections in

California and New Jersey, as you mentioned. What does that mean in practice? And then how does it set them up for something more dangerous in 2026? So look, one of the most dangerous things I think that is happening on the center and center left is that people are finding excuses for the abnormality of the Trump administration. So you will hear people say, well, hasn't the Department of Justice always sent monitors, federal monitors, to elections? I mean, after all, it was after the passage of the Civil Rights Act that this federal monitor program got going and really took off. And the idea was you'd have DOJ monitors go to places with histories of discrimination against

minority voters, and you'd have them observed to make sure that those minority voters were not being discriminated against. This is not that DOJ. This is not the Merrick Garland DOJ. This is not the Bill Barr DOJ. This is not the, you know, you could go back in time. This is Donald Trump's Department of Justice. This is a Department of Justice run by Pam Bondi for the, and they're not sending out these monitors in order to protect minority voting rights.

They're sending them out because they are trying to test the fence. Now, they're not going to overturn the results of the ballot initiative. They're only in seven counties. They're in one county in New Jersey. But it is notable they are not, for example, in Virginia, which is also having gubernatorial election, but where Republicans run the state. And so what I think is happening here is two things. Number one, they're sending these monitors out so that Donald Trump can lie about what happens. when he loses the ballot initiative in California. When Gavin Newsom and the voters of California

passed this ballot initiative, Donald Trump wants to be able to lie about California elections. Why? Because he's always lying about California elections, and he wants to create a permission structure or do so. Same in New Jersey when Mikey Sherrill wins that election. As he moves forward to 2026, that lie both helps start to delegitimize those elections in 2026, create a permission structure for these federal monitors to be much more widely deployed in 2026 because they'll say, look, we deployed them in 2025 and nothing bad happened. In fact, they uncovered fraud, right? So you can see the building of a big line narrative that these monitors are part of.

And then in 2026, you have more monitors, more places, you have the military more places. You have, you know, you have Donald Trump claiming that there should be no vote by mail. There should be no states that have absentee voting except for people in the military. And in his latest social media post, he says there should be no early voting. That's right, no early voting. And so you can start to see all of these things coalesce as we head towards 2026, in which he lies about what happened in 2025. He uses that as an excuse to do more egregious things in 2026.

And then he claims that there's fraudulent voting that requires greater federal action. And do you worry about that being in place in 20206 in such a way that election results will be questioned, that there's a possibility that that even in 2026, we won't be able to count on the outcomes of those elections? Or is that more for 2028? No, I think you put your finger right on it. And I think you use the right, I think you use the right verb, questioned, right? I'm not saying that we will not have elections in 2026. Of course we'll have elections in 2026. Actually, dictators quite like elections. The question is how fair and free they are. And I suspect in 2026, they will look less fair and free than they were in 2024 and perhaps more fair and free than they will in

28, right? So it's someplace in between. And so what I suspect that he is laddering up to in 26 is to be able to make it marginally higher, harder for people to vote, right? Maybe some Republican states, for example, repeal their mail-in voting laws or cut back on how easy it is to vote early, right? Remember, Republican legislatures and Republican governors have proven themselves quite willing to scale back on democracy when Donald Trump asks them to. So maybe you see that. Maybe you also see an increase in election vigilanteism in some Democratic states. So can we- I'm sorry, before we get on to what's next, I want to stop on that for a second, because you put together two things, and I think they're both important. One can be overcome

with information and turnout, which we have also seen, right, as Republicans have tried to come after and done through legal means come after, maybe with rhetoric that's not true, whatever, but they've come after some kinds of access to voting, and we've seen Democratic campaigns and those in favor of more voting overcome them. That is a separate matter than vigilanteism and intimidating people out of voting, which can't be, ultimately, is very difficult to even measure. So can you, like, let's put aside for a moment, Republicans hearing his call to get rid of early voting or mail-in voting, which, by the way, it's not even clear hurts Democrat. Like, that's it, that is, that's, I don't think, I think it's stupid, but it's overcomable.

It's something we can deal with. What, what, what is intimidation? look like to you? Yeah. So look, we have been, I've been warning about a particular type of intimidation for several election cycles. Now, we've seen a rise in it, and it is this idea of right-wing election vigilanteism. And it has basically taken two forms. The first is mass voter challenges. Now, we have seen, there's always been some number of people who get challenged in their right to vote. But what we've seen over the course of the last two election cycles is the of right-wing organizations and right-wing organizations with voter files that essentially create one-stop shopping for right-wing activists to download lists of thousands and tens of

thousands of voters that they then take to their local election office or mail into their local county and say these 10,000 people or 20,000 people should not be allowed to vote at all. They are ineligible. They're not properly registered. We've seen this in the hundreds of thousands in states like Georgia. We've seen it in the thousands. So not in the tens or hundreds of thousands in states like Pennsylvania and Michigan and even in New Hampshire and New York. And we're seeing that grow every election cycle in scale and in scope because it's becoming easier to use big data from these right wing groups. And so we're seeing more and more of that. That's probably the primary way.

And my legal team and I, we fight against it. As you say, it's hard to organize around. Sometimes it's even hard to know what's going on. The other is more traditional types of intimidation. in which you see people, for example, in Arizona, we saw outside of Maricopa County, we saw people in body armor and video cameras, staking out drop boxes, right, intimidating people returning their mail-in ballot. Right now, the Republican Party is in court in Minnesota to try to strike down a law

that prohibits voter intimidation around the polls, right? We've seen this movement by Republicans and conservative organizations try to strike down state laws that prohibit this under the guise of free. speech. So this is, those are the sort of the two twins that we see, and that's before you get to things that are done by the federal government itself. So now let's turn to what those are. I want to break it down, and it's, it's all very daunting. Okay. So now we've got efforts to get people's names off the polls. We've got people intimidating people out of voting. Now the votes are cast. What are you worried about from that point forward? Because I think that is where people feel

the most disempowered, right? They feel the most scared. Like what, I, what am I meant to do? I did my part. I got everybody to vote. We voted. Now what's now what happens? Yeah. So now we get to the thing that is probably the most concerning of all. And that is, as you say, after people have voted, you have the vote counting and the certification process. And just to be clear, Donald Trump posted on social media on on true social several months ago. It was the social media post that garnered a lot of attention because he targeted vote by mail and, uh, and some voting equipment. But if you read down in that social media post, what he said was that the states are the agents, his word, the agents of the federal government for tabulating and counting results. And then he said

that the federal government is him because he is the embodiment of the federal government. Now, everything about that is untrue. A, states are not the agents of federal government. B, he is not the federal government. And C, they don't, like, he doesn't get to control vote counting. But that is clearly what he has in mind is that the source. the tabulation of votes and the certification of votes will be the friction point that he can put the most pressure on. We know that he is interested in this because in an Oval Office meeting in 2020 on December 16th, there was actually a proposal for him to send the FBI into the state of Georgia to seize

the ballots of the voting equipment after the 2020 election. And that didn't happen because the White House counsel's office, others in the White House, and people of the Department of Justice, threatened to resign. Well, we know no one's going to threaten to resign. this time, if he does that after 2026. We also know that in the run-up of the 2024 election, there were movements in a number of states, including in Georgia, to allow election deniers on county election boards to refuse to certify election results. If they didn't like the numbers, they could refuse to certify. You may remember this led to litigation and other pressure in

Georgia, but it wasn't just Georgia. And again, we've seen a history of this. I sued, my law firm and I, we sued Cochise County after the 2022 election because they were refusing to cert, we sued after 2022 in Pennsylvania, several counties for refusing to do so. The only reason why you didn't see this litigation in 2024 is because Donald Trump won. So you're going to see election deniers at the county level and at the state level encouraged by the White House to refuse to certify Democrats if they won elections. And that's, of course, before you get to the House of Representatives seating and the Senate seating, which is like the whole the whole, you know, the whole, whole ball of wax in some sense.

So you've just laid out what their potential levers are to subvert the will of voters in individual races across the elections and the midterms. What are our levers? And, you know, for people listening to this, who want to feel galvanized and empowered as citizens to do everything they can to make sure we win the midterms, what are their kind of places where they have some way to influence this part of it. So they know with confidence that not only they're going to get people to do everything they can to make sure we win the House and ideally the Senate in the fall,

but that we have the power to make sure that it actually carries through. Yeah, so we have a lot of levers and ours are stronger than theirs, okay, which is the reason why this is not a hopeless conversation. I'm laying out what their game plan is, just like before the 2020 election, I laid out, frankly, for people, what Donald Trump's game plan would be, which is that he wouldn't want to leave the White House. And you sounded fucking crazy. And people did say I was crazy, right?

And like, it turned out it was true. So here's the deal. Number one, one of the realities of almost all of Donald Trump's anti-democratic actions is that he winds up getting sued and loses. And so the truth is it would be a, it will be, it would be again a painful process to have to sue county by county to force certification. But we would sue county by county to force certification and we would win. And we will win. And we did in 2020, we did in 2022, and if we have to do so again in 2026 or 2028, we'll do so.

So the courts are actually pretty good on these issues. The courts tend not to favor the loser of an election, being able to withhold a certificate of election or seating from the winner. That's number one. Number two is that this whole process is very fragile, but its fragility favors activism. And so one of the reasons why Republicans have been successful in some quarters here is because they've been willing to be very loud. Remember Rudy Giuliani and all the people claiming that they were kept out of the counting

and then banging on the windows in Michigan and, right, activism matters. And so one of the things that we have seen this year is that Democrats and progressives are very, very excited and very, very engaged. And these voter suppression techniques tend not to survive first contact with peaceful activism. They tend not to survive. You know, someone can stand outside a drop box and try to intimidate people. But if there are five other people standing out of that drop box saying, get out of our community, get away from this drop box, honestly, it works. It saves the drop box.

If people think that they're going to subvert the will of the election after the election by refusing to certify, one of the ways that doesn't happen is that people notice and they protest. and they go to the county board meetings requiring certification. Let me tell you a really quick story. You know, this whole idea of refusing to certify elections has its origin in Wayne County, Michigan, following the 2020 election. When the two Republican members of the Wayne County board were told by the White House not to certify the election, Donald Trump called these local officials. It's a two Republican, two Democratic board.

And at first, they weren't going to certify. And then if you remember, people like you sounded the alarm. the result was that Democrats in Wayne County flooded that county board. It was actually an online canvas. It was in the middle of the pandemic. And as a result, the Republicans, they relented, right? They didn't want it. They were willing to do this in quiet. They were not willing to do it if it was a public spectacle. And the same thing happened at the statewide canvassing board. When the, when people thought the Republican canvassing board members at the statewide level would refuse to certify. But there was a public outcry and public attention. And they did certify.

And so the truth is that if people are paying attention to these things and people are engaged and they are standing up against voter challenges, they're standing up against refuses to certify, typically or very oftentimes these state boards and county boards, they can only steal elections in quiet. You know, they can refuse certifying in quiet in the back rooms. But if there's people paying attention, by and large, they wind up doing the thing that is right. So right now, as we're recording this, Mike Johnson is keeping the House out, in part because he does not want to seat a Democrat who won a special election because that would give them the votes to do the resolution on the Epstein files. How much does this look like a harbager to you of the ways in which Republicans and Congress could try to stand in the way of Democrats taking back the House? What does that look like?

How does that work? There are a lot of doomsday scenarios around Mike Johnson and the House and seating. I mean, I'll say this. The Senate is a continuing body, as you know. The House is not. So, like, whether Mike Johnson likes it or not, you know, in the first days of January, the House is going to reconvene and the clerk is going to call the role. And, like, Mike Johnson actually doesn't have any more power on that day than anyone else, right?

So in some sense, I'm not minimizing the trouble that Mike Johnson can create. I mean, he can try to do things in the lame does. He can try to, you know, appoint a new clerk. Like, there's all these, like, technical ways that people worry about this. And believe me, I've done more House and Senate contested elections probably than any other lawyer, certainly than virtually any other lawyer, if there's some Republican out there. And I just, I think that what Democrats need to focus on is winning the elections. We need to worry about passing the registering initiative in California.

We need to make sure that because the easiest way for Republicans to essentially rig this process is by gerrymandering so many seats that Democrats can't win or, you know, creating voter confusion or apathy, division within the Democratic coalition so that they don't vote. You know, I think if we get to the place where we have won the seats on election night, leave it to the lawyers and the political operatives and Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer. They will get it across the finish line. It may not be pretty.

It may look a lot like what we saw in 2020, but the main thing everyone can do right now is if you have not already volunteered for a campaign, You don't have to love every Democrat, pick the Democrat who you love, and go give to them and volunteer for them. I love every single one of them. You would be both. I'm, you know, this is the thing, this is the thing about me, is I don't do inter-party squabbling. Like, I don't do, like, when people say to me, oh, I, you know, what about, you know,

cinema and mansion? And what I say is that the only reason why you focus on cinnamon mansion is because every Republican voted against voting rights, every single one of them. And the same is true on the left. Like for every complaint people have about a progressive Democrat, I'm like, the only reason why you have to complain about them is because not a single Republican ever does the right thing. Well, this is why you're our lawyer.

You're not sort of, you're not doing this part of it. You're just doing the law. So last question. Are there ways people can get involved in the, like, what is the most effective thing our listeners can do who are really worried about this, who are doom scrolling a lot? who feel hopeless or powerless because this is an assault on their ability to use the power that they believe is theirs by right. What is the most effective things people could do to be part of protecting the vote 2025, 2026 beyond? Yeah. So look, the single most important thing

that anyone can do, probably is a better way to put it, that everyone can do is they can speak up. You know, right now we have a crisis of cowardice in this country. And it is not just the largest institutions that are cowards, although they are pretty cowardice. But honestly, we need more people willing to speak up. And that means for everyone listening, you all have social media. You all have a bridge club, a lunch club, a bowling league. You all get together with other knitters. You're on a Facebook group. You have dinner with your friends and your family. And now is the time to not stay silent. Now is the time to speak up and say that what Donald Trump is doing to this country is wrong. What Republicans are trying to do to our democracy is wrong. And that everyone should

have the opportunity to be registered to vote, to cast their ballot and have their ballot counted, and there should be zero tolerance for anything else. And I know that sounds like a really simple thing, but honestly, there's not enough of that. There are too many people who are just holding back because they don't want to be in the fray. They don't want to be in that line of fire. They'd rather have a polite conversation than a hard conversation. And we need more people willing to have hard conversation. So that's number one. Number two, you know, if you are able to, if you have the time, or if you can spare a few dollars, find a Democratic candidate or a progressive organization and volunteer for them or give money to them.

You know, like I said, you know, your thing in California may be the ballot issue. You may not like the candidates, but you may like the ballot issue. So go knock doors and volunteer for the ballot initiative. On the local level, you may say, look, I don't really care for partisan politics at all, but there is a civic organization like the League of Women Voters who is registering voters. Or you can go become a poll worker by getting trained, right? because we need good election officials doing honest work in every place in this country, right? So there's a way for you to engage locally in the community everywhere you go.

And then the final thing is, I always say this, you know, people think that judges live in these, like, separate communities. One of the reasons why we tend to win so many cases is because judges live in the communities. And they go to their kids soccer games just like you do. They go to the local mall just like you do or the local diner. And the more we create a sense in communities that we expect that our elections will be fair and free and that they will be representative, the more likely we will wind up with good outcomes. You know, the watching not just the No King's rallies, which have been inspiring, but watching what's going on in Portland and what's going on in Chicago and to some extent in L.A., it's actually quite, it's both terrifying and terrible, but it is also at a civic engagement level quite admirable. You're watching people put themselves out there and saying, you're not going to do this in my community. You're not going to drag people out away in the middle of the night on my watch.

you're not going to disappear them to gulags while they're my neighbors. And we can all do that in all aspects of our life. And when we get closer to voting, that can be part of us too. If you see someone who's afraid to go to the polls, go with them. You know, if you hear that there are vigilantes staking out a drop box, you know, peacefully, safely, but make your presence known because cowards are the ones who are trying to suppress the vote. And they do not withstand a little sunshine. Thank you so much, Mark, for being with us. And Mark will be at CrookedCon. He'll be on a panel, I believe, with John Favro

talking about the ways we can fight back. Is that right? They get that right. So thanks for being part of CrookCon. I'll see you in person then. I am really looking forward to it. And anyone, I don't know how many tickets they have left, but if you are in the Washington, D.C. area,

you've not already gotten your tickets to CricketCon. Please do so. It is going to be great. I looked at the program. And there are so many exciting panels that are coming up. So I look forward to seeing you guys there. And I hope I see everybody else. We'll be wild, one might say.

Mark Elias, thanks so much. Thanks. That's our show for today. Thanks to Mark Elias for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Talk to everybody then. If you want to listen to Pod Save America, ad-free, and get access to exclusive podcasts,

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