Pod Save America - Tucker? I Hardly Knew Her

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Joe Biden is officially running for re-election. The Republican primary is still Trump’s to lose. The Supreme Court protects access to the abortion medication for now. Fox News fires Tucker Carlson. Bud Light succumbs to cancel culture. The Atlantic’s Mark Leibovich talks to Lovett about his weird breakfast with Chris Christie. Then the guys make some predictions about Joe Biden’s campaign announcement video. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. 

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. On today's show, Joe Biden is officially running for re-election. The Republican primary is still Trump's to lose. The Supreme Court protects access to abortion medication for now. Fox News fires Tucker Carlson and Bud Light succumbs to cancel culture. Next, Mark Leibovich stops by to chat about his weird breakfast with Chris Christie and the Republican primary. And later, we get back into the prediction business just in time for Joe Biden's announcement video. But first, be sure to check out the Crooked store for all the latest merch inspired by your favorite pods and progressive causes. There's some cool stuff in there right now.

And every purchase helps benefit Vote Save America's No Off Years Fund to support the work of organizers across the country. Head to crooked.com slash store to check it out. Also, Crooked Media is hiring.

We're hiring people. We have a ton of great job openings right now across content, marketing, digital, and more,

including right here on the Pod Save America team. You can replace Love It. Oh, yeah. Just taking resumes. If that's possible. Right on.

Check out all the openings and apply now at crooked.com slash careers. All right, let's get to the news. We are recording this late afternoon on Monday, but by the time you all hear it, Joe Biden will have almost certainly released a video announcing that he's officially running for re-election in 2024. There are multiple reports that White House senior official Julie Chavez Rodriguez will be his campaign manager, and he's set to meet with donors in D.C. this Friday to start raising money for what's estimated to be a $2 billion race.

So much money. Too much money. Biden's approval is still stuck in the low 40s and most voters don't want him to run again, including about half of all Democratic voters, but because of his significant accomplishments and his party's history-defying midterm performance, only Marianne Williamson and anti-vax conspiracy theorist Robert

Kennedy Jr. have stepped up to challenge him and the DNC has no plans to hold any primary debates. Tommy, we were in the White House when Obama ran for reelection. What are the mechanics of how that works? Who's in charge? Where's the campaign? How does the president and the staff split their time?

Who's the big boss? So it seems like Joe Biden's probably making this announcement tomorrow via a video so he can create a campaign fund and start raising money. Because as you pointed out, he's got to raise a billion dollars. That's so much money. I think they said two billion and that would count outside super PAC spending. But this is just for the Biden side. Yeah, but this allows you to start an organization, hire people, start getting staff in place.

You mentioned that they named Julie Chavez-Rugues to be the campaign manager. She's currently the director of White House Office of Intergovernmental Affairs. So I assume she moves out of that position into the campaign. It's likely that decisions will be made by a broader circle of people that includes White House staff like Anita Dunn, Mike Donilon, Bruce Reed, Steve Ruschetti, Jeff Zients, chief of staff, Jenna Malley, Dylan, his deputy. Some White House staffers can coordinate with the campaign, others cannot. So it'll be that kind of group. And they will decide how Biden splits his time between these official events at the White House proper or campaign events out in the States. To some extent, I guess everything you do

as a president is campaigning. It's helping your reelection. But campaign staff set up the big rallies, campaigns that to reimburse the government, for example, for the price of Air Force One rides to campaign events. So it gets a little complicated. But it seems like that's what he's doing here. Yeah, I think the way they do it is the staff that is most directly connected to like Biden's personal actions so like his scheduler speech writer people like that like they can be both campaign and white house because it would be hard to split those people in half yeah because he needs them for both you know i think ben rhodes

could coordinate with the campaign so there was like some policy person you get on certain areas yeah foreign policy but it sounds like they might put the campaign office in delaware yeah for tax purposes it's interesting to do that i mean i guess i guess we had our re-elect in chicago uh while we were all in dc but um yeah wilmington the argument was that it was good to get a campaign out of washington because then everyone comes together as a team and you can avoid the DC chattering class bullshit. I wonder if that's avoidable anymore with Twitter and social media. Yeah. I don't, I don't think it would have hurt the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008 for the headquarters to not be in Boston. Yeah. I mean, before you're, before you're in the White House, I'd say definitely don't have a campaign anywhere near D.C. The reelect, I think it's a little different.

I mean, but as you said, Tommy, like for our campaign, it was Jim Messina was running the campaign in Chicago, but David Plouffe was in the White House and essentially running the campaign. David was really running the campaign. David was really running the campaign. Axelrod had left the White House at that point, but was still a very important advisor on the campaign. So it's very sort of amorphous where the lines are on this. It seems like making everybody drive two to three hours to have an in-person meeting seems like a pain in the ass for no good reason if you put it in Wilmington.

A lot of Zooms. No offense, Dan. Delaware's great. Delaware's great. We love Delaware. Dan's going to run. No, so I think, as you said, the most important reason to announce now two reasons really the money thing is the big one uh there was some fundraisers quoted in some of the stories today saying like you you just can't get the extra month or weeks or whatever back at the end of the campaign like especially when it's going to be this much money that you have to raise. You have to start now. And also doing this puts to bed all of the stories about like, will he or won't he?

And why is he taking so long? And all that kind of shit. Can't Sam and Diane, you're reelect, you know? I assume, yeah. I mean, it just seems as though temperamentally, Joe Biden would want to wait as long as possible. And this is as long as they could wait. He loves to chew on decisions.

Yes, but I think he also likes the pot. I think, you know, he likes the the imprimatur of being president without all the pesky politics around with it. He can go and do the infrastructure events under a purely, you know, official label. And now he's a candidate and all of that entails. That is historically the incredibly silly distinction that I think politicians think about when they wait to announce their reelection. Yeah. And, you know, he hasn't been holding back on the trail when he's doing those events on talking about the, you know, mega, mega trickle down Republican people, you know, right. Like he's mega trickle down. He is not. It sounds like a lottery. It sounds like you can, it sounds like you can win big on this Sunday's mega, mega trick Trickle down, trickle down.

I like that. With the Powerball. New Jersey's going to steal that. So we've talked a lot about Biden's challenges. And there's obviously a lot of factors he can't do much about, most notably his age and the economy. What can he do to improve his chances? Any advice on what kind of campaign he should run? Love it.

You live in LA. You can do a lot about your age. And I think he has. But I don't know if this is advice. It's just like how I'm like, I talked about this with Leibovich a bit because he, you know, Mark wrote a piece that was basically saying, why is no one challenging Joe Biden? And the conversation I had with Mark, which you'll hear is just about the fact that like this risk aversion to challenging Joe Biden is because I think age really is the most salient and and and weakest part of his candidacy. And that's a very tough thing to launch a campaign based on. Right. Because I think there is a pretty wide consensus that Joe Biden played his hand as president as well as any person could.

person could. He has done as well as a human being could in this job, given the circumstances of a closely divided Senate, of a post-COVID economy, and all the challenges that he faced. And that means it's a generational argument without the heft of what you had in 2007, when Barack Obama was launching not just an age-based campaign, but a campaign about culture, about politics that was broader. And so in that context, I think basically Joe Biden can't argue his way to being younger. But what he can do is assuage the people that have that very real and legitimate concern by showing, not telling and just being a active cartwheels. Yeah, I would say a back handspring into some triple Dutch. Maybe thinking about that Willy Wonka.

Maybe we chill with the bike rides over there. Yeah, right. Does not always go well. But I do think one thing that was really smart and is a small piece of advice, he looked so young and lithe when he was talking to those Holocaust survivors. I think the more that we can get him next to just truly the oldest human beings on earth, he needs to help Dianne Feinstein across the street, back to the Senate. He needs to look like a young, vital person. Looks like we're only booking AI Joe this year. So, you know, that's one idea.

Another idea. Just a pitch. You probably can't. No bad ideas in a brainstorm. You probably can't go to a hot war zone every week. But that Ukraine trip was very good. I think he looked in command of not just the country, but the world. The challenge is that every-

Send him to Kiev. It's a Rose Garden threat. Forget about the Rose Garden threat, yeah. Not a lot of electoral votes in Kiev these days. The problem is that every stutter or verbal slip is going to get edited down in some attack video and used against him. But I think the only way you defeat that is with volume. You just got to be out there. I could not agree more. Like, I would take the occasional, maybe more than occasional, Biden gaffe over the stilted

teleprompter reading where then he sort of, when he sounds older and mumbles, it's because he is, I think, reading from the prompter, but he also, as he's been through his entire career, wants to ad lib, wants to say stuff. And I think when he's, also when he's in like an interview, that's kind of like when it's a tough reporter. I think when he's talking to people, when he's in town hall settings, when he's connecting with people one on one. Absolutely. When he's doing nontraditional press, he's really good and he should just go do that. Did you guys see Joe Biden's speech to the Canadian parliament? No. Really? see joe biden's speech to the canadian parliament no really i thought this was a trick

it's a serious question that i thought you were going to make fun of me so i was leaving space for it i didn't even i was like i wasn't in ireland yeah you addressed the was it in french okay you did both you talked to the Irish parliament too. We're just a couple of low information voters. Politics stops at the water's edge, Tommy. No, he had this great moment in Canada where he was addressing the Canadian parliament and he said something about how he and Trudeau had reached gender parity in both of their cabinets and all the liberals stand up and they applauded that and all the conservative

Canadians remain seated. And Joe Biden's like, hey guys, whether or not you disagree, you might want liberals stand up, and they applauded that, and all the conservative Canadians remain seated. And Joe Biden's like, hey, guys, whether or not you disagree, you might want to stand up. This is just about equality. This is a great moment where he was kind of sharp and screwing with these kind of MAGA right-wing Canadians. And I don't know. I thought you guys might like that.

Thanks for telling us about it. Much like he did. Can't wait to learn more. Much like he did during the State of the Union. Did he have any poutine? I don't know. The State of the Union then happened right here in America. No, no.

And that I watched the fuck out of. Yeah. I remember that. That was wild, though. I remember that, though. No, that reminds me of the State of the Union. He was very good that day. Very good.

So that's all style stuff. I also think he, humor, like he should joke about his age. And he's already done that a few times. Like just lean into it. Everyone's thinking about it. You know, there's no reason to avoid it at this point. And then more than anything more than it's not like don't think of an elephant bullshit every it's it's there everyone knows don't think of an elephant i forgot about that george leikoff uh then most of all you just gonna have to make a choice between joe biden himself and whatever extreme right-wing members

the republican party he runs against probably donald trump but if it's the sandus it's about you know fighting it's a candidate who wants to permanently ban abortion in the entire country and is more focused on preventing one transgender kid from playing sports in Oklahoma than jobs or anything else. Do you think that he should be compared against the alternative and not the almighty? Yes. It's his saying. It really is. It's his saying. It's a great line.

It's as true as it's ever been about him. He's used to say it about Barack Obama, but it's it's even truer about him. And I do think, look, there's gonna be a lot of Democrats being like, he's just got to let people know about all his accomplishments. And we go through this all the time. I think he needs to frame the accomplishments as a choice, right? Like within the context of the choice. So it's like, we can keep investing in clean energy, or we can, you know, outsource those jobs to some other country country we can keep fighting to protect abortion or get a national ban right like you just every accomplishment has to be framed as a choice between moving forward and going backward and i think that's you know he did finish the job during the state of the union i think we'll probably hear a lot more than in canada or here no no here domestically domestically um uh do you guys think we're gonna get a good kind of let biden be biden news cycle we just started one yeah that was us that's it okay we did it well no usually comes after some sort of mistakes are made and we blame some advisors and then some other advisors say you gotta let biden be biden it's good right there needs to be a news cycle about there needs to be

a news cycle about how he's in washington he hasn't been on the trail very much his numbers are low and now he has to be unleashed to the world there's also going to be like an off-the-cuff moment where everyone likes it and he gets a lot of applause for that. And then people are going to say, oh, why can't we see that Biden more? And then all the advisors are going to be in meetings and they're going to say, remember when you did X, we just need to let you do that more. Yeah. They always had to communicate that. Barack Obama loved hearing that.

Something that Joe Biden will be saying on the campaign trail every day for six months will break through. And then everyone on Twitter will be like, where has this Joe Biden been? That's the classic. That one also happens in concession speeches. Everyone's like, oh, that version of ex-politician was incredible. Where was that, John Kerry? It's like a stump speech. It's usually the stump.

Anyone nervous about RFK Jr. pulling 14% in a recent poll? I didn't like it. No, it's bad. Yeah the kennedy name you know there's something probably people don't really get that he's an anti-vax conspiracy theorist but yeah i mean i don't love it no i mean this is why i think for biden too that and we're about to talk about kennedy's don't often uh this this rfk isn't one to embrace a boost. You know what I mean? Okay.

Okay. I get it. You get it? I get it. You get it? Took me like five count to get it. Sure. But yes.

I do think that the better Trump does, the better it is for Biden and the case that Biden's making. And, you know, I remember in one of our interviews with Ron Klain, he was like, i know the republican party thinks it's going to be someone other than trump like they're delusional basically and as biden can tell people look this is this is going to be a choice between me and donald trump then the better it is to like push the rfk stuff aside it inoculates him push the push the third party no labels bullshit aside right like there Like there are no other options here. Obviously, voters are grumpy. A lot of people don't want a Trump Biden rematch. But if that's what it is, and you have to decide between both of them, there you go. That's probably Biden's best case. You know, and it was a good case in 2020. It helped him win.

Oh, Tommy's got his joke face on. No, I was waiting for you to have another one. I'm out. Over in the Republican primary, it's still Donald Trump's nomination to lose the new NBC Wall Street Journal poll basically says the same thing as all the other polls. Trump holds a double digit lead over Ron DeSantis, 46 to 31 percent, though there's some evidence his indictment bump is fading. That's right. That is a phrase, the indictment bump. What a society we've built. Tiny D also still has higher favorability ratings than Trump, which is interesting. Pudding Fingers was just asked about his poll numbers.

Here's what he said. I'm not a candidate, so we'll see if and when that changes. We have to show the video. You have to see the video of this because he's basically like rocking his head back and forth like he's a bobblehead doll while in japan i don't even know it's a wonderful i'm not mad face where he just is like twitching with rage it's really worth he looks super fucking weird is basically the point um and here's uh here's the new super pack ad the super pack from uh from ron desantis steel isn't forged overnight but after all the mining, blasting, and casting is done, it's strong.

It lasts. As governor, DeSantis stood up to Dr. Fauci when others stood aside, banned CRT, and got the smut out of schools. Refused to let woke Disney push us around and put media elites in their place. Ron DeSantis never backs down because his backbone wasn't forged overnight.

Ugh. It's just a truck ad. It's a truck ad with a political script. It made me laugh to think about, like, he had the courage to stand up to Dr. Fauci. It's a 4-11 doctor. like like a senior citizen pediatrician also it's like how fucking internet brain do you have to be it's like crt doesn't even say critical race theory just crt explain nothing this is just for the posters just for the comment section and all the it's like and

all the music and all of it it's like you know it's it's like they're it's like it's like, and all the music and all of it, it's like, you know, it's like they're trying to make you think that you're at a Guy Fieri restaurant and that you got a bucket of nachos. But then they lift the bucket and there's not nachos under there. It's like a little canopy. It's a little Ron. Granted, this is his super pack, so it's not like Ron DeSantis' campaign, but it still kind of sucks. What do you do to turn this thing around if you're Ron DeSantis' campaign, but it still kind of sucks. What do you do to turn this thing around if you're Ron DeSantis? Anyone have advice for the DeSantis campaign?

We're now doing advice for DeSantis. Sure, right? Say you were on the DeSantis campaign. Here's what I'm still waiting for, just as a fan of Republicans ripping each other to shreds. And it's full-throated, well-made cases against each other.

I want to see a speech with a beginning and a middle and end that walks through the case against Donald Trump. I think part of the issue here, again, Leibovitz wrote a piece in November about how people aren't going to like Ron DeSantis once they get to know him, so far bearing out. But I do think he's in this kind of liminal space where like he's hinted at an argument against Donald Trump and talked about his strengths as a candidate, but it's just a lot of kind of empty white space to be filled in with all of this sort of

machination process stuff. And it's like, make a fucking case or don't or go back to Disney World, whatever. But just you got to do something. Yeah, this was a boxing match. We just watched the first round and Ron DeSantis has kept his arms by his side the whole time. And Donald Trump is pummeling him in the face and he's not defending himself. He's not fighting back. He's not doing anything. It's early. Now it's the second round, but he should throw a punch. Stop looking like a wimp. He looks like a wimp. He's not making argument against Trump where he is at these oblique things on policy like guns and abortion rights call him a loser he lost to joe biden he listened to dr like the fauci thing in that ad is an attempt to say oh when when florida uh when when fauci tried to lock down florida ron wouldn't let him that joe biden

listened to dr fauci ron desantis should be the one out there saying that if he wants to make that argument but it's not getting hurt hard to throw a punch when your hand's stuck in the pudding yeah it's true you know i hadn't about that. That's a really good point. It's hard to get a pudding with a glove on, a boxing glove. He is, Donald Trump, Donald Trump is, we love Donald Trump's policies. He's an undisciplined, loose cannon who costs the Republican Party control of the White House and Congress. That's it. He can't win another general election.

You want Joe Biden for four more years? Enjoy Donald Trump. Well, yes. You have Chris Christie kind of making he's starting to make some version of this argument. He's not going that hard. He's hinting at it here and there. Everybody's dancing around it. DeSantis and Chris Christie are the closest actually making an argument. I think Christie's making it. He's not saying he's like, well, I mean, I think he's calling him a loser. He's calling him a loser, but he's not like he you

know, he's dancing around it when he talks to Mark Lee, which doesn't want to lean into having the fight he's sort of saying it a bit here and there on the road just a pissy asshole he's just doing the acela corridor that that's the problem with christy he's just like doing a little chris christy rehab green room to green room right then you have like the nicki haley's and i mean tim scotts and none of them are going in none of the other announced candidates are polling above single digits you're nicki haley's you're tim scotts they're just sitting there know. Do you think there's room for any candidates who haven't announced yet, like a Chris Christie, like a Glenn Youngkin? And I realize those two are not very alike. I don't think Christie's really running in his heart of hearts because he thinks he can win.

I think he's desperate to be relevant. And this is his constant way back into the conversation. Youngkin, maybe he's a great general election candidate someday, but I have zero confidence that primary voters will like him more than Trump. I, you know, we can't predict the future, right? Trump could, he could go away. He could go to jail. Maybe Tucker Carlson will run. Maybe, maybe Trump will take over for Tucker Carlson.

That'll be his new job. But no one's really seems like they're trying. Nikki Haley, I saw that she has not gotten off for corporate boards like talk about hedging your bets nikki haley well she should that's smart it's a smart move from her like run or run or don't a classic you know nikki haley announced that she's going to give this big speech about abortion but then has it set on background but there's not going to be any policy she's going to talk about the way forward on abortion but not to any policy And it's just a symptom of their kind of failure to go all in. Like, remember I was talking to some, like I was talking to a new, a New York

real estate, like rich person who'd been going, like we've been around Donald Trump as this sort of like ridiculous figure in New York real estate for 20, 30 years. And he was like, these people don't get it. Like Donald Trump never quits. He never tires. He never wavered. Like he is relentless. He will wear you down. And like, if there's going to be any person can be the person from this list that could be the one to put up a real fight, but they have to be tireless and they have to be ready to really have that fight. And none of them, even Chris Christie, the closest is not, none of them want to have the fight. They don't want to own the fight. I think Chris Christie will want to own own the fight i think that in his heart of hearts like you said tell me i don't think he thinks he can win um i do think his hatred for donald trump is genuine because donald

trump did almost kill him tried to kill him for sure yeah i mean like sure it's relevance too but also he tried to kill him yeah he tried to kill him and then when he was in the hospital almost dying donald trump called and said you're not going to tell him it was me that gave you covid are you and i talked about that yeah if i say you doing okay yeah don't tell anybody buddy all right yeah i think the odds of chris christie heading down to mar-a-lago to suck up to trump to get back in his good graces are much higher than chris christie winning the nomination but that but i do think that's part of it like the the person that does it they have The person that does it, they have to believe

they can beat him. They have to believe they can win. I think DeSantis believes he can win. Well, so I think the problem with both Chris Christie and Glenn Youngkin and all the rest of them is I think the only candidate who has anything close to Trump's connection with the MAGA base is Ron DeSantis. Absolutely. And you cannot win this primary, a Republican primary, without a real deep connection to the MAGA base. Tucker has it. Tucker. I'm sorry. Tucker has it. Yeah. And and like, does DeSantis have it as much as Trump? No, absolutely not. But at least he's a possibility. None of the rest of them have that connection. No, they have a connection with like some college educated Republicans, dc republicans strategists who are

all like wish casting for someone to save us from donald trump right like the people who've you know new york donors the new york donors the dc strategists all these people but like out in the out in real america no do you remember what the villains were in that movie with riddick the like the death eaters who keep They Kill. Do you remember this? Anybody? Huh, the Chronicles of Riddick? Yeah. Who can forget?

Who were the villains? Didn't catch it. That villain. Anyway. There was big news on abortion Friday night. The Supreme Court ruled that Miphipristone will remain available for now while we wait for the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals

to decide the case. Both the Fifth Circuit and the federal judge who heard the case wanted to restrict access immediately. But it turns out only Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito agreed with them. The New York Times said this was a, quote, powerful message from a chastened court. What do you guys think of that, Tommy? The court does not seem to be remotely chastened. Strict scrutiny did a great breakdown of this ruling of the Alito dissent, but that's worth listening to for just that.

But they also talked about how they listened to the oral arguments and there was zero sign of embarrassment or contrition from Clarence Thomas in anything he said or did. And since the Harlan Crow disclosures came out that he was taking all these private jet flights. So it's worth checking out that episode.

Yeah, as the host of Strict have said on this show, Dylan Crowe disclosures came out that he was taking all these private jet flights. So it's worth checking out that episode. Yeah. As the host of Strict have said on this show, the fact that it was even a question as to whether or not this ridiculous ruling would be stayed is a testament to how illegitimate and not chastened this court is. The fact that it's not 9-0 is a sign that the court is not chastened at all. And like, God, Alito is such a fucking just like pissy sniveling creepy fuck he is the worst one it is disgusting i saw an interview with where javier becerra said he might not uphold everything and therefore i'm not issuing a stay i fucking hate him alito sucks i guess yeah can i say that on this podcast oh wow going out on a ledge um nothing alito and thomas do or say surprises me at all they're the most extreme members of the

court i don't even like think that they just write trollish dissents they're awful people i'm interested in like kavanaugh barrett and gorsuch on this one because you had the three liberals plus roberts on the right side of the dobbs case. But Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch didn't join Thomas and Alito on this one. And I'm wondering if it's just because in the original Dobbs decision, they made such a point of saying that like this should be left to the states and blocking access to Mifflin Perstone would certainly not be leaving it to the states. Yeah. I mean, I think also like this is a truly like the fact that Alito and Thomas didn't join them. Is it just a sign of like they are obviously beyond the pit?

Like, I don't care how far right you are. Any any like any judge that puts any faith or stock in any of the words that they've ever said in any hearing ever should not be participating in this Mifepristone thing. Like, I don't think you have to go so far as say like, like, oh, they believe it should be left up to the states. Like, these guys don't have standing. It's a ridiculous thing. Of course it should be stayed. It will create chaos if it's not.

That's it. So what happens from here? Basically, May 17th, I believe, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Here's oral arguments. Then the Fifth Circuit will rule. And inevitably, this will end up back at the Supreme Court because either side that loses uh from the fifth circuit will probably appeal to the supreme court we don't know what

the supreme court will do but it's obviously a good omen based on what they just did on friday what will happen so the timing of this all but guarantees that a final ruling will come this summer as the republican primary heats up trump's latest position is that per Dobbs, abortion should be left to the states. Though there was a Times story over the weekend that some Republican state legislatures don't agree. They are in states like Ohio trying to change laws to prevent ballot measures that would protect abortion access. Do you guys think Trump's position here will fly in the primary and or general that, you know what, Dobbs happened and now abortion should be left to the states and that's the compromise and that's it. I think in the primary that will work for him because Trump can signal to these right wing anti-abortion groups, I'm going to say what I need to say to win.

You know, I'm with you. Look at all these wacko judges I gave you. Like, wink, nod, don't worry about it. These right-wing evangelicals, people are always like, oh, how can they vote for him? He's an adulterer. He's this, he's that. He's venal. He's a liar. They don't care. He's their scumbag. He does their bidding for them. They're psyched about it. In the general election, I think that all of these positions are incredibly toxic and will be damaging to the Republican nominee, whoever it is, incredibly toxic and will be damaging to the Republican nominee, whoever it is, but a long way until there. Yeah. I mean, other than that, you have Pence basically staking out a very anti-abortion position. And then you have a lot of these Republicans who don't want to piss off the evangelical base while also trying to avoid saying anything concrete on this issue. Nikki Haley was asked about this. Haley signed a bill in 2016 banning abortions at 20 weeks.

When she was asked about this, she said, what we have to do is we have to be very loving in the way we do this, but we also have to figure out that we've got to figure this out. So let's do it. Oh, my God. And so I think that tells you a bit something about where the politics of this are, as does Tim Scott's word salad. And so, you know, even Nikki Haley giving this big speech that's about staking out the fact that because she is a woman, because she has given birth, she is the best person to lead the party on abortion. She's afraid to take a position. She wants to leave it to others and avoid taking it. So I think Trump will be safe in part because no one is going to make any kind of argument either way against him. Yeah. But I do think in the general, it's going to be a real fucking problem for him. And I think Democrats can very fairly tag Trump and the entire Republican Party as abortion extremists who will not stop until they get a national ban. There is plenty of evidence for that. I would constantly

put them on the defensive net over and over and over again. I would say these are your judges. They made these rulings. You own this. Right. And they are continuing to make rulings that try to do things like block abortion medication access. And look what's happening in these states when people try to put ballot measures on where they're trying to vote to protect abortion access. Republican legislatures are just saying no. Do you think Donald Trump's going to disagree with those Republican legislatures? Probably not. Every statewide race in the midterms and in Wisconsin was a referendum on a anti-abortion candidate versus a pro-choice candidate. Every single one. And every Republican that tried to, you know, take some kind of a compromise position or, you know, emphasize that there are exceptions to some ban, that didn't work for any of them.

Didn't work. Didn't work. So the best and most shocking news of the week is that Tucker Carlson has been fired from Fox News effective immediately. The decision came directly from Rupert Murdoch himself. Reportedly, Tucker found out Monday morning and will not have a chance to say goodbye in a final episode. So sad. Yeah. No green day for him.

What do we know about why this happened, guys? Well, so the Washington Post said that he was fired because of some of Tucker's comments about management that came out in the Dominion lawsuit. I don't really buy that. The L.A. Times said it was because a former senior producer for Tucker's show named Abby Grossberg has filed a federal lawsuit against the network that names Tucker. And also, she says Fox's legal team coerced her into giving misleading testimony. So there's two suits. that while working on Carlson's show, she endured an environment that, quote, subjugates women based on vile sexist stereotypes, typecast religious minorities, and belittles their traditions and demonstrates little to no regard for those suffering from mental illness. So it seems like Tucker, as the leader of the show, had a horrible culture. Shocker. Another shocker.

I mean, we know what he says on the air. God knows what he does off the air. Well, that same LA Times report also said that another big concern that Rupert Murdoch had was about Tucker's January 6th reporting. That not just all the footage that he's been showing and all that kind of stuff, but that he basically thinks it was a false flag operation. Oh, yeah. That a man from Texas named Ray Epps, who showed up at January 6th but did not enter the Capitol, Tucker suggested that he's an FBI plant. Epps just told 60 Minutes that he's had death threats as a result.

So apparently Murdoch was concerned about that. I will say it's a little odd. He's concerned about that for how many years has Tucker been doing this now? Yeah, that came out a year ago. Let him run a documentary. I'm drawing the line today. But it was the same sourcing

from the Abby Grossberg story as well. And there's other lawsuits still coming down the pike there's smartmatic there's other legal threats related to the there's the ongoing defamation suits are not over uh yeah and there's a chance that tucker is talking about running i just don't know that we have i'm interested to see what else comes out because like we also know that he had multiple tucker had multiple producers who he had to fire because it came out that they were prolific posters on like super racist, far, far, far, far, far right message boards. I mean, there's been like a churn of stuff like this for years. Yeah, I'm really interested in some kind of a tick tock about what actually what was the final straw here? Because you're right. A lot of this stuff has been building up at the network for a long time.

because you're right, a lot of this stuff has been building up at the network for a long time. Now, before we move off of this topic, I will tell you what my first reaction was because my brain is broken, which is, and Logan's body is not even cold. So, Andy, would you mind bringing the documents? So, now, here's the deal. Oh, my gosh. Look at how much typing love it did uh i have i have i have in my hands a conversation between kendall roman and shiv about replacing

tucker carlson uh there's a part for each of us great would you like to be who would you like to be would like to be kendall roman or shiv I think you should assign us where you're the casting director Like I have some I feel like I have Kendall energy. Oh You want okay? I'm gonna give Tommy's gonna be Shiv sweet. I'm gonna be Roman and Tom and John can be Kendall I think we're ready So what's the move here? What's the play? We do the Roman Colosseum thing? Thumbs down?

Keep your dick in your pants, little Caesar. Maybe. I'm just saying maybe we take the gloves off? Make it easier to warm our hands on all the burning books. We still have Hannity and Ingram. You think they need uniforms? Very funny. I'm saying we go full red meat. Lions eating AOC.

Bonin Black Lives Matter. Kendall won't be happy until every CPAP machine in Florida is clogged with jizz. Jesus, bro. No, I love it. We send Jesse Waters to wait outside public bathrooms with a big net next to a paddy wagon labeled trans people. Shiva wants to do fucking 60 minutes but make it feel longer. Is one hour of news in primetime a terrible idea? This is a news channel. You've got four million people who want to feast on the blood of their enemies and you're like, did someone say salad?

Have you seen how low those golf carts are riding? Those people could use a couple salads. Is it crazy to bring O'Reilly back? Has that whole thing had enough time to cool off? Cool off? It's six sexual harassment settlements, not a cartoon pie out a windowsill, you freak. Okay, rubber meets the road. What are our actual real world options? Waters, Gutfield, Bartiromo. Oh, I think she's in a dumpster out back. Chivon sees Bret Baier, one of the other human reputational condoms we keep in the nightstand because our brand makes her uncomfortable.

Our brand is scaring old races between ads for life insurance and Applebee's. You said that like it's a bad thing. Does it even matter? Before Tucker, there was O'Reilly, Beck, Kelly. They're all replaceable. People don't come to the circus to see the ringmaster. They come to see the fucking elephants. Wait, wait, wait, guys.

I got it. Look at what just broke. You have to show us something on your phone. You have to act. I think it's audio. I know, but yeah, there we go. You know, I don't hate it. Prodigal son angle shifts the narrative.

Don Lemon. I know, but yeah, there we go. You know, I don't hate it. Prodigal son angle shifts the narrative. Don Lemon. I think we did great. Just want everyone to know that was first time Tommy and I ever read that. Yeah. No practice there. I thought it was good. That was great, love it.

Thanks for doing that. Thanks so much. I was going to ask how big of a deal do you think this is, but I think we answered that But I think we answered that. I think we answered it. My honest view on the whole thing is that the musical chairs at Fox News are hyped by media reporters. But ultimately, the issue is the audience. They've created this audience. The audience needs to be fed and watered. And they've slowly radicalized these people after over 20 years.

Sean Hannity has been in the same chair since 1996. O'Reilly was a behemoth that was irreplaceable until Carlson came along. Glenn Beck, we went through a news cycle about how monstrous Glenn Beck was. The problem is the overall network and what it does to the people that watch it every day. And those people now are radicalized. And if they don't get what they want from Fox News, they will go to newsmax or they will go to daily wire or they will go somewhere i agree about the network and i agree about the audience i do think that not all right-wing propagandists are created equal yeah and i think that tucker was especially skilled at what he did in a way that like i don't think hannity is um i think hannity is just sort of a goof.

I kind of think that like, and I think that Tucker not being there, do I think it's like a big win for democracy and everything's going to be great now? No, like you're right. Someone's going to be horrible in that seat and that's going to be that. But like Tucker's a pretty dangerous guy. And I don't know that he will find a platform as big as Fox News. If you look at the history of other people who left that network, other hosts, Megyn Kelly, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, they haven't found that kind of success anywhere. Yeah. I think that Tucker's a big audience. He's influential, but I do not think he's some sort of generationally talented broadcaster, even all that talented. And the reason I think that is because he was on CNN, MSNBC, and PBS before Fox, and he sucked ass on all of those networks and got fired.

And so I saw someone compare him leaving Fox to leaving ESPN and thinking you're better than the network, and they never, ever are. Lots of people decide, oh, I outgrew ESPN, and then they leave, and then they do fine, but they don't do better. So I'm sure Tucker will do other things. He'll have other jobs. My guess is that Fox slots in Jesse Waters or some other like just as fine at the job, you know, guy who will read a script in the same way they replaced Bill O'Reilly and no one really gives a shit in a month. I think the Tucker that showed up on Fox, especially in recent years in the Trump era is very different from Tucker on CNN or MSNBC. He's worse. He's more racist. But is that a function of the network or the individual?

I just don't know. I think it's a top-rated show. I think Tucker's great skill throughout his career is that he had the ability to kind of understand where a big chunk of the right was going and kind of either follow them or lead them there. And he had an approach and a philosophy that was deeper than any approach

that Sean Hannity or Jesse Waters or Greg Gutfeld or any of those people have. And that did make him creative. It made him innovative and it made him dangerous. I don't know that that work wasn't already done. I don't think like, I don't know that there's more to add to the end of that playbook

that Jesse Waters can't pick up and run with now. Like I think the damage has been done. He's shown people new ways to access the fucking fever swamp of the right. I think they're all such goofs. I think Laura Ingraham, if you want to pick someone, is a little closer to Tucker in that category. But I think the rest of them are fucking goofs. Waters is more comedy first. Tucker got into real right-wing racist

agitprop like i'll never forget the the segment he did where he claimed that like white farmers in south africa were being killed but again that's like dark shit it's dark shit but it's not about him it's an editorial choice to like go to those places and i think the next person will go to those places too and the audience will be happy i'm just saying that other fox hosts haven't been as successful and go into those places or haven't even tried as hard to go to those places too and the audience will be happy about it. I'm just saying that other Fox hosts haven't been as successful in going to those places or haven't even tried as hard to go to those places as much as... It's a different approach. The Sean Hannity show is just a,

isn't Mr. Trump wonderful and we love Mr. Trump and all this kind of bullshit. And Tucker is doing his own thing and his own philosophy, which is deeply dangerous. Yeah, and I do think that right-wing propaganda is a lot like therapy in that it just has to be be good enough and then you get a lot out of it you get the voters you need you get them angry you get them turned off to republicans inoculated against

democrats all those things tucker was doing something was doing that but then i do think something much more dangerous on top of it he did have this philosophy around elitism yeah that i think really resonated and kind of connected him more like tucker carlson was more connected to the joe rogan kind of ecosystem that's why it feels then than sean hannity has ever been like the jd vances and josh holley just get their inspiration from tucker and they're all like tweeting about how sad it is but that's bullshit but i do think that's because tucker is he didn't invent this movement he is part of it and he understood it and saw an opening and kind of helped pry that opening open but like your jd vances he understood it and saw an opening and kind of helped pry that opening open.

But like your J.D. Vance's, you know, the Peter Thiel kind of universe, like they're investing in these kinds of, I forget the skeleton from Arizona.

What was his name? The Craig Blake Masters. The Blake Masters is another candidate that kind of was trying to access this kind of thing. So you see that Crowder slotting

into the slot pretty easily and there's a lot of people. Yeah, there's a lot. I think there's a lot of outsiders that could probably uh do something like this yeah all right finally a culture war update bud light has decided to put two executives on leave because they sent a personalized bud light can to transgender activist dylan mulvaney as part of a marketing promotion that caused a bunch of right-wing weirdos to lose their shit and call for a boycott of Bud Light, including a video where Kid Rock shot cases of Bud Light with a rifle.

So should we now call for a counter-boycott of Bud Light because they cowered to the mob? Way to fight cancel culture, everybody. We did it. I mean, what was pathetic to watch about this is Republicans, Dill Malvaney gets essentially a swag mag, a commemorative beer can. The entire right wing flips out until someone gets a call from a lobbyist that's like, hey, Anheuser-Busch gives a ton of money to Republican causes. In the 2022 cycle alone, Anheuser-Busch gave and its employees gave the NRCC $46 and sixty four thousand dollars. Members of the Bush family give huge amounts of money to Republicans, too. That's when you saw Donald Trump Jr. come out and others say, actually, let's show with the boycott stuff.

Right. Because they heard about the money. But it was too late. And Bud Light decided to essentially fire these people. Bud Light also put out a statement that never it does it said nothing it just sort of it it it tried to tamp down the controversy which actually in a way that I think other companies have done worse but they tried to tamp down the controversy without ever apologizing or suggesting they shouldn't have done it but to try to kind of tilt towards recognizing the controversy which got them nothing. you just can't like imagine how you sleep at night and you're just like i had to make a decision to put someone who works for me

on leave because they thought it would be nice to just send a beer can to a transgender activist with their name on to make them feel included to make them feel included that's that's the crime and that was so bad that i had to tell those people, you're done with the company. It's ultimately a, we're a month past what was one sponsored Instagram post. I think that's what it is. One post from a month ago by one person. Megan McArdle, who is a conservative, who writes a lot of stuff that's quite terrible, wrote about the right and its

approach to persuasion versus bullying. And I thought this was an interesting thing to come out of the right on this. And I'm not going to read the part where she caveats the fact that Dylan is trans. So I will skip the caveat. I'm skipping a caveat. But she writes, it's easy to understand why she's accumulated more than 10 million TikTok followers over the course of her online transition. She makes life and being trans seem like such fun. She traffics not in anger or cruelty, but in whimsy and joy. Where Matt Walsh offers enemies, Dylan Mulvaney aspires to exuberance. She suggests the possibility of making herself and the world into something better, while Walsh promises at best only the dour satisfaction of being right about how terrible everything is.

It isn't surprising that the kids are choosing Mulvaney over that, which I think is a really a very, very good point. And why I think ultimately these politics backfire and to me is like that, that captured for me the feeling of what it's like to watch this unfold, because, you know, even calling Dylan Mulvaney a transgender activist, sure, that is what she is. But really, her activism, for the most part, has just been making videos describing her life and trying to say what she's going through through this transition.

And it has enraged so many people, not just to see someone unapologetically do that, but to build a following while doing it. Well, you think about how this hits the vast majority of people who do not pay close attention to politics culture wars any of these issues who are like you know have certain feelings about different most voters right and they're like oh there's a big what what's the big fuss over that they that they sent a a sent a butt light

can to someone who's transgender and everyone's mad about that that seems fucking crazy just that's how most people would think of that the whiplash of spending years crying about cancel culture and then doing then literally shooting your machine gun at a beer can you know it's like i know hypocrisy doesn't seem to matter in politics anymore but it's exhausting and headspin and and now like they're pretending to be populist so like the attack on the corporations when they just basically got got a got a corporation to fire a bunch of people well but all of it too it's also just such an admission of failure right because all of this their defense of why they have to do all this now is like if we don't do this now basically what they're saying is if we don't stop companies from saying it's okay to be trans eventually it won't be okay to have

our views right that's what they're trying to say They're saying if we don't shoot up the Bud Light cans and fuck Disney over and make them pay for representing a view we don't agree with, they're going to at some point force their views down our throats. That's not happening right at this moment, but that's what's coming. They're coming for us. And of course, it's conspiratorial nonsense. And so they just look out to lunch. i still think that in the announcement video biden should shoot a can of bud light himself yeah what about that i don't know i don't love it um you don't think that's a good idea uh you mean like a but like but on in defense of dylan mulvaney right that's what i'm saying well now we're now we're doing counter

boycott because now Bud Light... But they haven't stopped shooting the things. Nobody can drink Bud Light anymore. No, that's it. It's done. Wow, they really stepped in. They're still mad.

Yeah, they did. They're still mad at Bud Light, unfortunately. All right, when we come back, Lovett talks to The Atlantic's Mark Leibovich about Chris Christie and I presume

a whole bunch of other shit. Joining us now as the Republican primary heats up and the nation has turned its gaze to Chris Christie. He just he just published a great profile of Chris Christie here to talk about it. It's the Atlantic's Mark Leibovich. Mark, welcome back to the pod. John, always good to be on the pod. Thanks for having me. We dove right in just moments ago. And I am curious, your question to me was, do you think that post Tucker Fox News is going to be worse? And doesn't it feel like it has to be? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like the media, the kind of Trump era version of Moore's Law, which is like that, you know, Intel founder Gordon Moore, you know, that idea that chips get faster, double in. Yeah, we can double the amount of racism in an hour.

Yeah, correct. Every two to three years. gets forced out and bill o'reilly gets forced out i'm like oh ding dong the wicked witches are dead and you know then you get a worse iteration and um you know trump begets descent i don't know i mean there's just it's always a spiral in these areas so yeah i have no confidence that the tucker carlson first of all i don't think we've heard the last of tucker carlson maybe we'll run for something um but yeah no it's it's just the deviancy will continue to be defined downward. And yeah, I'm not expecting that the improvement will be pivoted to today. Yeah, it's as if each host leaves the audience in worse shape and they kind of, you know, pick it, pick up the baton from how well they've trained them.

Yeah, exactly. It's kind of a bizarro version of that democratic messaging. This is the first generation that isn't better off than the generation before, you know? Yeah. People are always saying that. It's actually both parties who did that in the past.

But yeah, no, I mean, there is always sort of a new level. I mean, you know, Tucker Carlson at least had some skills. I mean, there are some, I mean, there are some versions of him that are probably objectively stupider, maybe less, more racist. I don't know. I mean, look, all the benchmarks are always can always get lower, you know, worse. So, yeah, I'm never optimistic when it comes to that.

So so I want to set the stage. Chris Christie claims to be the only person who can beat Trump in the primary. He agrees to meet you for breakfast at the swanky Hay-Adams Hotel. Genteel, ornate. Ornate. When you mention the name Donald Trump to Chris Christie, he seems to get upset with you. What happened there? You know, I am intrigued by him only because, you know, he is interesting. He is nimble. He potentially could finally, after seven, eight years, turn his bullying, brawling, you know, argumentative tone against Donald Trump, which he had resisted to this point. And that would make him interesting. So we go to breakfast and he got very defensive very quickly because I was dubious.

I think skepticism is warranted in a case like this. I think this is potentially opportunistic, but I also hope he'll run because I think he'll be more interesting than, you know, Asa Hutchison or any of the others less than 1% doing it. And he started like kind of biting my head off and it was kind of a weird scene. He didn't order breakfast, but I think he might've been acting too.

It was kind of, it felt a little sticky and I tried to write up the whole spectacle. There's a quality, you know, you've profiled Chris Christie in the past. You wrote a piece for the Times about Chris Christie in 2014 with a headline that I think in hindsight isn't exactly accurate because it was Chris Christie is back. It turns out he wasn't.

But you feel in both of these pieces, he has this, he believes that his authenticity should be a currency that you appreciate, right? That he's cool enough and he can hang enough to get a good profile out of you uh and um do you think that he's right or do you think he's finally learned his lesson what do you think no i mean i look there there it is a form of authenticity to be full of shit in a way that is more transparent than other people are i mean i think at base level like when everyone

someone whenever a politician is performing for a reporter for anyone there is a baseline full of about it um his thing is you know i'm a wise guy i'm a jersey tough guy you know you know i was really popular i took on teachers unions and stuff um you know i i don't know i mean he doesn't it's not as if, um, this is any great mystery. I just think that his performance art is far more transparent than he might think it is. And, and, you know, maybe reporters are smarter than he thinks they are, or at least some of them are. So I don't know. I, it was a fun story, at least for me. I don't think he liked it though. So one, one thing about Chris Christie

that's different than some of his other non-Trump opponents is he's actually making an argument against Trump. Sure. About about his failures, about his failures to achieve the things he said he was going to achieve, building the wall, immigration, COVID, whatever it may be. Is he is he making any kind of electability argument on the road at all or has it been focused on competence? Well, first of all, he hasn't he hasn't. I mean, to correct you, he hasn't really gone into Donald Trump was a disaster in office. I mean, none of the Republican candidates have gone have mocked him that much, except for maybe the wall. But, you know, I mean, Biden uses this

on him in 2020 and any Republican should, too, which is that he lost more jobs. He's the first president in history to lose more jobs leaving office than he did coming in. Now, obviously, COVID was not entirely, you know, he screwed up COVID. But, you know, there were a lot of other factors. But that's it. That's a pretty damning thing. And also, if you're a Republican, there's just the loser rap, which is, you know, it's pretty hard to lose to Joe Biden. And, you know, he's the first lose to joe biden and you know the

first republican in 100 years to lose the house the senate the white house blah blah blah so i mean i i think christie would also be uniquely positioned to say hey look you know what he was a disastrous president because he could have overturned obamacare if you really want that because he wouldn't have needlessly alienated you know mike pence or whoever certainly me jeb bush would not have alienated uh john mccain would have probably done it much smarter um you know would have actually drained this would have actually you know not pardoned my friends would have not sewed an insurrection would have not gotten impeached to it so um you know the other thing is i mean i i don't the the idea that like

oh you thought you know you're gonna get you know thanks for the infrastructure bill oh actually wait that was joe biden so i mean his his promises made promises kept thing i mean you can sort of you know drill all kinds of holes through that but no but christy knows where he's vulnerable and right now he's focused mainly on the loser thing, but also in that he's kind of nuts. And electability is obviously kind of right beneath the surface of all that. So you wrote a piece in November about DeSantis when he was white hot. Yeah. A lot of your sources at the time thought DeSantis would fizzle. One of them said Trump will club DeSantis like a baby seal, evocative. You also talked a fair amount about the interpersonal challenges that might come for Ron DeSantis. Does that seem to be bearing out now? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, well, as usual,

people should have just listened to me six months ago. But no, I mean, no, I mean, DeSantis is, first of all, he's off to a disastrous start, I think. I think every time he goes out in public, including today, there was some clip that went pretty viral of him in Japan looking extremely weird in the face of a question about polls or something like that. Electability, yes. And not running, and if and when, et cetera. Everything's strange. If you haven't seen that, it's pretty viral, so you can go find it. But it's weird as all hell. And yeah, I think he's going nowhere.

I mean, I think people compared him, you know, maybe to Scott Walker, to Rick Perry, all these people who were sort of seen as like the obvious sort of heir apparent. But I think he might even be worse. But we'll see. I actually, I mean, I don't know how a guy like him turns it around because he's so unappealing objectively just to watch. Yeah, to me, the comparison for me is he really reminds me of the villain from Ghostbusters. He has real Walter Peck energy, like the going after Disney, like I'm going to put a prison next to this amusement park. Like, yeah, that's like Act Three, break into electric boogaloo stuff. I mean, like it's just villain TV stuff.

That is so true. Yeah, I know that is that is brilliant. No, that is I totally agree. Any of the other Republicans doing anything that surprises you? Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, Mike Pence, Asa Hutchinson, the white hot, the the electric charismatic Asa Hutchinson, who had just thought the best place to announce his presidential campaign was this week with george stephanopoulos anybody uh anybody surprising you at all no no i mean pence is is pathetic which is not new i mean you know he kind of had this feeble critique of trump um you know this off the record i guess it was either the gridiron or the alfalfa i always mix them up um

dinner no cameras yeah the washington history will not you know treat him well i mean like shut up um and you know nikki haley you know great um i you know i don't see that um you know people are saying like glenn yunkin i think people asked someone asked yunkin about what he thought of trump whether he would consider running against him and yunkin said i think we need to all learn to agree without being disagreeable and i'm like okay yeah that's probably not going to get it done in the republican primary um i don't know i mean there although i it would be nice if there was someone who was actually pretty relevant to republican governance now whether it's a um you know, Brian Kemp or someone like that, who had a pugilistic and sort of savvy, sort of, I guess, somewhat Christie-like side who could take on Trump and be fearless and really put a scare into him and make him uncomfortable on a debate stage.

Yeah. I mean, you called Chris Christie an imperfect kamikaze candidate, which seems to be suggesting that it's going to take two people, one person, one person to fly into Trump and the other person to to win. Right. I mean, ideally, that would be one person. I don't I don't think that person or I'm not sure if that person exists. But anytime you have more than one, I mean, the map gets really tricky because Trump's's gonna get his 40 um probably 35 and then you know when you start splitting um it's you know it's never a clean one-on-one um i mean if it were cruz or rubio v trump early on i mean he probably wouldn't have won in 16 but but, you know, the math absolutely favors him, you know, in larger fields like this. And it looks like this is going to be one.

So but yeah, no, I mean, Christie can soften him up, but it's not like I mean, Tim Scott is going to come in and finish him off. I mean, I don't think Tim Scott, I mean, is the guy to do that. He seems to be running for vice president. Is the guy to do that? He seems to be running for vice president. I mean, wouldn't an imperfect kamikaze candidate is one that doesn't hit the candidate and explode? Presumably, if he hits the kid, presumably a perfect kamikaze is somebody who loses by taking out Trump. Yeah. Yeah. Or or wins. And But then they're not a kamikaze. Oh, I guess that that's true.

Although ultimately the kamikaze could happen in the general election after Trump's voters stay home. I see. So maybe the kamikaze would be a two-step. There's a lot of stuff going on. A lot of metaphor going on here. But you get the idea. Over the Democrats, a couple months ago you wrote a piece about why someone in the Democratic Party should challenge Joe Biden. Are you excited by Robert F. Kennedy's candidacy? Is he the person for whom you were waiting?

Is he the one we've been waiting for? No. Or are we the ones we've been waiting for? Yeah, I was hoping for someone who is not RFK Jr. or Marilyn Williamson. jr or marilyn williamson um by the way i still think that that's true i mean it's getting late but you know if gretchen whitmer or gavin newsom or whoever wanted to jump in um i you know there would be hell to pay they'd be they'd get a lot of abuse but they also i i think they would be welcomed by a lot of people very quietly yeah i mean you wrote about, you know, Donald Trump's presidency paralyzed Democrats into a kind of risk aversion, which, to be honest with you, is something I feel as a Democrat, 10 years younger, there'd be no question his record of accomplishment would make him unassailable. He like, is he a perfect president? Of course not. But given the hand he was dealt, I find it truly very difficult to imagine someone playing it better. And to me, that says this person has absolutely earned the right to seek a second term.

So it really is a question exclusively about age. And that is a tough argument to make for another Democrat. And the worry is, of course, someone jumps in, makes that argument, which is the only salient one, really, maybe the generation will change. Yeah, it's a different way of saying age. Right. But and then, well, it would be if Joe Biden had had governed like a conservative Democrat from the 90s, but he hasn't. It would be more it would be a more it would be if Joe Biden had had governed like a conservative Democrat from the 90s, but he hasn't. It would be more it would be a more it would be more than just age if it had more to it. But it doesn't seem like it really would.

And so then you're asking somebody to jump in to weaken him on the most vulnerable aspect of his candidacy. Right. So that's where the aversion comes from. And I don't know how I don't know how you square that. I don't know how you deal with that. That challenge. Yeah, I don't think it would be the Democrat who weakens, the candidate X who weakens Joe Biden. I think Joe Biden is himself very, he's weakened on its own. I mean, look, it's twofold. One, I mean, his poll numbers are terrible right now, both in general, but also, I mean, about like more than half of democrats don't want him to run and then you know 82 that's how old he'll be when he's inaugurated

um if he wins again i mean that's really old and that's you know it's it's these two things feed on themselves obviously but um yeah i i honestly don't think it's the job of of any challenger to worry about weakening him and by the way if biden um overcomes this challenger to worry about weakening him. And by the way, if Biden overcomes this challenger, that itself would be an argument against him being weakened because he would have proven his mettle. And he would have won that argument, won the argument. Yeah, I would have won the argument on the weakest thing on the on the biggest weakness he faces. Yeah, I think so. I think that would totally I think that would answer a lot of critics right there. So are you hearing anything that tells you anyone serious is considering jumping in? Nope. Haven't heard a thing.

You know, that looks, I guess, I mean, I think people are, again, it's sort of part of the risk aversion. But again, I think there's a way to do it in a way that could um have great benefits to whoever does it and can you know greatly enhance a debate that i think democrats not only deserve to have but are overdue to have because they really haven't had a debate about their futures since obama was elected in 2008 and that's um how many years ago is that 15 years ago so um 15 years no yeah 15 years ago so yeah i mean it was like you know let's go okay obama now it's hillary's turn and oh boy we're really screwed let's let's do biden it's like oh now we're really screwed again let's stick with biden and um i

don't know i'm ready for the future one last question before we let you go uh elijah uh who works on pod save america he tweeted at you that the only flaw in your piece was that there was no question to Chris Christie about the fact that Trump knew he had COVID and tried to kill him. But you said that it was cut. It was. You asked him and it was cut. Can you tell us about the exchange? Yeah. There wasn't an exchange about it just well so i was sort of listing the indignities that trump heaped upon him so trump you know so at the end of his administration you know christie shows up well does a lot of debate prep with trump and then he shows up at the uh amy coney baron super spreader party at the white house gets coveted lands in the icu and

and you know he's got some comorbidities so i mean he was he was pretty nip and tuck there for a while and actually yeah uh this was in my book so i'm one of these guys who says this was in my book but trump concurrently had covid so he was being treated at walter reed and trump called christy to uh you know theoretically wish him well but after about five seconds on the phone he pivoted to uh chris you're not gonna say you got this from me are you and um christy said you know yeah i forgot about that it's never gonna change um but yeah no so he um yeah he gave him covet i mean he he uh i think the line was that they cut um but thank you for letting me do this um was you know

he caught all kinds of humiliations and indignities from Trump and also caught COVID from him. And just for people, this wasn't just like, oh, you know, these things happen. Trump had had a positive test. He had. He knew he had COVID. That's the most amazing part of all of it. Yeah. And completely unsurprising. Mark Leibovich, thank you so much for your time. Everybody go read the article on The Atlantic. It's worth a read. Thank you, John. Always good to be here. Thank you, Mark. Good to see you. See you soon. All right, before we go, as of this recording, we still don't know what's in Biden's announcement video. But since we all consider ourselves to be close observers of the 46th president we're going to go ahead and guess which bidenisms made it into the final cut

three phrases sentences whatever each winner gets to join the campaign love it you start first no uh first prize is joining the campaign for a month second prize is joining for two days. My phrases were, I believe in America. Our best days are ahead of us. Battle for the soul of this nation. A job is about more than a paycheck. It's about dignity.

I think it was four or five, but yeah. It's four. It's a lot of overlap. I had soul of the nation. I just want to get credit for having folks in there at at least five times i want to like an over under on folks and uh that's all i have hold on where's my other one what if he what if he uh does a detour to talk about how his dad told him it was cool when two guys kissed that seems like it's probably not gonna be in there that's weird to conclude my dad saw two guys kiss and i said it was fine

i was thinking we might get Not Your Father's Republican Party. Oh, yeah. But I didn't list that. I have finished the job. Soul of the Nation, obviously. I think he's going to do a whole riff that's I ran for president to restore the soul of the nation,

to rebuild the backbone of this country, the middle class. And then, here it comes, to grow the economy from the middle out and the bottom up not from the top down do you think you've seen the script do you think this is yeah did you work on it the nether most of the tip top i swear to god i swear to everything i have not seen the script i've not and i have not talked to any about insider trading i also think we're gonna get um

light over darkness hope over fear unity over division that's what that's his other riff that he's unity over division yeah i'll be in there that's a good one yeah that's what i'm guessing anyway we'll see what happens we'll see what happens i mean if you're listening to this you know what happened and you know you know what he did you know what he said unless when it won't be so funny if there's no video tomorrow because that's part of all of these all of these reports have been just a little caveated. It's all but certain, but we never know.

It could pull it back last minute. And then there was a Politico story a month ago about how there wasn't going to be an announcement until the fall or next year.

But it has been recorded, apparently. It has been filmed. Sounds like it. So it's in the can. It's somewhere, yeah. So it's in the can. It's in turnaround.

Hope they don't back-roll it. Thanks to Mark Leibovich. Thanks to the cast of Succession. And we'll talk to you soon. Bye, everyone. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner-Bernstein.

Our producers are Hayley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerrard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash pod save America.