Produced By - #12 - Evangeline Parry: When One Film Sparks Lasting Passion For Screenwriting

Starting point is 00:00:02 Evangeline Perich is a compulsive writer, film fanatic and wannabe ghost hunter. In school, she was the awkward introverted girl with a stutter and a terrible haircut. But despite these setbacks, she was also very good at English and that was because she absolutely adored and still adores storytelling. Her love for the art of storytelling to her to college to study creative writing, and at the university to study film with a specialization in screenwriting. Evangeline writes both screenplays. screenplays a novice and started freelancing as a script reader and editor after graduating from university in 2020, right as the COVID pandemic.

Starting point is 00:00:42 The only thing she loves just as much as working on her ideas is working on other people's. She also writes her only video channel where she talks about all things writing, reading and query. Listen to this episode to find out what film made Evangelion fall in love with screenwriting, get some great recommendations for aspiring screenings. writers and enjoy a deeper introduction to other interesting production roles. Enjoy. Hello Evangeline, thank you for the journey in us today and welcome to the show. Thank you. For the beginning, can you please try to introduce yourself?

Starting point is 00:01:19 Yeah, sure. My name is Evangeline. I'm 23. I have a group, Editha, three now and yeah, I've just moved to London and yeah. So, Let's start from your beginnings. Why did you decide to become a filmmaker or a screenwriter in the first place? Well, it's actually really that, like, random and weird. But when I was younger, my dad, who's a really big film, like, fan, used to, like, force me to watch all the, like, 80s classics, like, Back the Future, like, all those sorts of films.

Starting point is 00:01:56 And one day he made me watch The Karate Kid, and I would, like, really don't want to watch it. And I was like, no, it sounds really stupid. I was like 10 years old or something, but you mainly watch it. And then after like it finished, I was like so amazed by it with the whole like ending, with the like crane kick and everything that I was just so into it that I was like, oh my God, I want to write films and make people feel the way I felt watching that film, that makes sense.

Starting point is 00:02:22 And it was literally from that day on that I was like, I want to write films. So yeah. So was Karate Kid that film that made you? Yeah, literally. I know if that was so silly, but it. which he was. I honestly didn't expect this one. Because if you said Back to the Future,

Starting point is 00:02:40 I think it's an amazing film. I would be surprised with that one. But Carotech is interesting. Yes, yeah, I know. I know. What about some other films you remember from the 80s that you used to watch? I mean, well, Back to the Future is my favorite film.

Starting point is 00:02:55 Anytime I'm sort of asked to watch it film, I'm like always straight away back to future. Like, I just think it's epic. Is it the first one? Yeah, yeah, definitely the first one. The Breakfast Club, I think, is incredible. The Outsiders is like one of my top films of all time. Like, I think that film is just, like, beautiful.

Starting point is 00:03:15 And not many people like... The Outiders, it's like Francis Ford Copler. It's like the first film of quite a lot of, like, really famous actors, like Tom Cruise. It's like one of his first films. Like Emilio Estabez, like Patrick Swayze. Like, it's got like the most... incredible cast and it's set in the 1960s and it's about like gang culture in America and it's just so good and like no one's ever seen it but it's one of the best films ever.

Starting point is 00:03:45 I must admit I'm one of those people I think I've never heard of the film, but I found it now and we'll have a look. Yes, it's so good. So do you like these films because of the scripts or the film in general? I think most films I watch, most films I enjoy, I enjoy because of the movies. script, I could sort of handle like a film if it didn't look amazing. Like if the cinematography wasn't, you know, incredible, but the story was really good, I'd still happily watch it. But if a film has incredible cinematography, but not very good scripts, I can't sit through it.

Starting point is 00:04:20 So like, normally, like, I have to be really into the scripts and the characters to be able to sit through a film, else I'll just switch off. Can you give some examples, like a film that as a great story but not a good cinematography and the opposite? I mean, when I say not good cinematography, that's obviously like a... Or like, I mean the whole look of the film in general, not probably necessarily cinematography. Yeah. I say like the look of the film is it amazing.

Starting point is 00:04:48 I still like, it doesn't look terrible if that makes sense. For example, films like, I guess I don't know if you've watched for any like kind of typical British films, but a lot of British films, especially ones for like a while back, like the 60s, 70s, 80s, that sort of period. A lot of the films are like very much drama. They used to call them like kitchen sink dramas where they're just kind of like slice of life. And there's nothing like impressive, you would say,

Starting point is 00:05:14 about the cinematography. It's just very like, you know, straightforward filming. But the stories are like incredible. So like if my Lindsay Anderson is pretty straightforward in terms of the way it's filmed, but it looks beautiful. Sorry, the story's beautiful. Quadrophenia is one of my all-time favorite films.

Starting point is 00:05:33 And again, that's just very, like, basic in terms of the way it's shot, but the story is really good. Yeah, those sorts of films, I'd say, might not be the most visually impressive, but the story is what makes it in this script. Yeah, I need to have a look afterwards. I never heard of those films. Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Starting point is 00:05:53 When I started studying film in college, I was introduced to a lot of, like, films that I'd never even sort of heard of. That's when I started watching the more kind of niche ones, I guess. Do you still continue watching these niche films or not anymore? Yeah, but I would say I'm more watch. If I literally just quit my job at cinema, a lot of the films I'd watch would be the free tickets I can get off the cinema. Certainly like the movies that are released in the cinema.

Starting point is 00:06:21 And the cinema I worked in, we didn't really get many of the nicheser ones or the ones that aren't, like, proper mainstream. So I'd say I definitely don't watch as many as I use. used to but if there's one that really like catches my eye I will find it somewhere. It's like one of those big cinema chains such as Odeon or? Yeah, but it's a chain from like Devon. Like that sounds really weird but it's not like the chain's Merlin and I think they only have cinemas around the like West Country.

Starting point is 00:06:50 They don't have any like London or anywhere like that. So yeah, it's just kind of Devonshire base, they think. But they have quite a few down there, but yeah. So I guess mostly like these blockbusters, superheroes and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, lots of them. So it sounds like that you knew from a young age that you wanted to become or pursue a career of screenwriter? Yeah, yeah. To be fair, it has actually been like a really long time that I, I don't know about you, but when I was young, I would like, every other week I'd like want to be something different.

Starting point is 00:07:24 I'd be like, oh, I want to be like actor and then I want to be like a director and then a doctor. went through the moral. But then when I kind of like settled a writer, it never changed. And that was from like the age of 10 onwards. I was so like, had my heart settled being a writer. So yeah, it's been a long time.

Starting point is 00:07:42 And the passion still continues? Yes, yeah. Definitely. That sounds good that you at least knew from a young age what career you often pursued. Yeah. So how did you start studying that? Was it at university?

Starting point is 00:07:57 or you said at college before? It was at college, but like prior to college, because in my school, like, because some schools, secondary schools do, like, media or film as, like, a subject GCSEs, but mine didn't. So in school, the only, like, opportunity I got to, like, study writing was a six-week module in, like, English in that year 11. But, like, I absolutely loved it. Like, it was, like, the only time in school that I actually truly enjoyed.

Starting point is 00:08:24 It was, like, six weeks. That was it. And then when college came around, I did film studies and creative writing. It was really good. I think film studies was a bit more of the like theory. It wasn't so much making film. We did do a bit of that, but it was more actually studying film, which, to be fair, like I think, especially now with what I'm doing

Starting point is 00:08:46 and it'll probably come up later, but I do some, like, YouTube stuff as well. And that's a lot to do, like, the analysis of film and, like, the script itself. I think my film studies course really helps with that now, being able to kind of look a bit deeper, I guess, when watching a film. And yeah, and then creative writing, I was able to do like a more drawn script writing, which was the first time I'd probably been taught about it. Prior to that, I'd just literally like read it from books and watched YouTube videos and stuff like that. So yeah, and then university was, what I always had my heart set on was studying film at university in London. That was like my goal from like, oh my gosh, it would be like, yeah, tenets.

Starting point is 00:09:26 So eventually I applied for that. So how hard or easy was it for you to get accepted into university? It sounds like that it may have been okay since you had already some stuff written. It was okay, but I had a horrific experience with a UAL. Yeah, UAO, University of Arts London. I went for an interview there. And like I was really proud to get an interview because they kept on saying, how it was really hard to get an interview and it probably wouldn't happen but it did and I was like

Starting point is 00:09:55 oh god so I went yeah in the interview room it was like two people and me and they were so horrible to me and I've got quite thick skin like I don't really can or me what people say to me but they were so like condescending and just really rude and you're obviously in a situation where you're already really nervous anyway and I literally came out into crying that's how that it was and then was like okay I've definitely failed that interview and in the end I got like a offer on like I think it was like a TV course, which I didn't want to do because I was like, I had my heart set on film, not TV. Well, I said like, oh, no thanks. But I then wrote like a complaint, just saying, like, I just think the way they treated me and the interview was really horrific.

Starting point is 00:10:34 And then all I got in response was like a rejection. That was it. I didn't get any, like, conflict. Like, they'd like, you know, read my complaint. And I was like, what the hell? So why did they treat you that way? Do you know? I have no idea.

Starting point is 00:10:47 I don't know. For me, it felt like it was baby, like, just the vibe. Because it's like the sort of you need that I guess is like harder to get into. They're just quite like arrogant. That's the vibe I got and it really put me off. And that one of the reasons I loved when I went for the middle section university interview was it didn't feel like that at all. It felt like a really nice environment. The lecture is.

Starting point is 00:11:08 It was just completely different by the really nice. It wasn't about making us feel intimidated or making us so like, you know, under pressure. It was actually just like, I don't know. I don't know if what if like what you're into was like. I had like a group one with like some other people. And it was just a really nice like vibe. Just completely different to the way the other one made me feel. And that's why like I had an offer from it was West London as well.

Starting point is 00:11:32 But ultimately chose middle sex because of just the vibes. Like it just had good vibes. Like that sounds really lame. But it did like it just had good vibe. So how did you find studying at university? Did it meet your expectations? Yeah. I mean I think obviously.

Starting point is 00:11:50 I think everyone probably feels the same in a sense of the way it ended wasn't great because of like COVID kind of ruining everything. And unfortunately, like, I think because that is how it ended, that's kind of my main like memory of it. It's just, oh, well, it ended terribly. But like when I like really think about it, I think it's one of the best experiences I'd ever had. Mainly because I think of like the people you meet

Starting point is 00:12:12 and the kind of opportunities we had and stuff. But then also I really, really loved the screenwriting course. even when COVID hit, obviously the screenwriting students were lucky in a sense of we could carry on our course on Zoom and like obviously the light directing and producing students. And we just did it on Zoom instead and like it was the same as it always was and we were doing like table reads. And like we had actors come in and join the Zoom call to read out our scripts. And like I just think I learned so much from university and like now I find myself when I'm editing someone's script or these YouTube videos. a lot of like what I say is from what I learn at uni.

Starting point is 00:12:53 Yeah, I still like very much use it now. And I always, I like criticize uni in a sense of, oh, you don't need to go to uni if you want to do film. Like it could be perceived as like a waste of time and a waste of money. But I would never like go back and not do it if that may sense. So you feel like it was worth it? Yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:13 Absolutely. Although I'm not really interested in screenwriting, I must say that it seemed to be. me like someone very skilled and knowledgeable in this area. Yeah. Do you think the same or not as someone who's more into screenwriting? Oh yeah, absolutely. Like I say, I learned so much from him and like prior to uni, like I'd been screenwriter ever quite a long time and I'd been like, I'd say quite a long time as if it'd been like

Starting point is 00:13:39 10 years. It'd been a while. Yeah, like just being kind of self-studying it myself quite a lot. So when I then came into the class and was learning new stuff literally every single day, I was like, oh my God, this guy is like awesome. He's still like my favorite lecture off of the uni. Like I just think he was great. Yeah, really good.

Starting point is 00:13:59 Yeah, knowledge of also really good at delivering that knowledge. Because I'm very, like, I've got a very short attention span. So if someone's like boring to listen to, I just will not listen. But in his lectures, I could have been as tired as anything. It could have been like 9 a.m. I still would have like listened, if that makes sense. Yeah, that sounds like good. And was it kind of mix of both learning theory and writing in practice, or was there more of one or the other?

Starting point is 00:14:26 I'd say it was a mix. There was definitely a lot of, like, actually doing it. Even in the lessons where we were more just talking about craft, throughout the lessons, would still be doing, like, practical kind of like writing tasks and then going off into groups and discussing what we'd written and stuff. and we used to sit in like a circle and like discuss, you know, what we'd written and why would written it and what choices were made. And that was actually one of the most like valuable things I found was I used to be terrified

Starting point is 00:14:56 of feedback, like terrified because I'd be like so embarrassed. I don't know like if you've ever had this, but like I know a lot of writers have the same kind of thing of we want the world to like read what we write. But the second someone you know reads it in front of you or wants to read it. you're like, absolutely not. That's the most embarrassing thing ever. And it's this weird thing of like, you want the world to read it,

Starting point is 00:15:18 but you also don't. And I think that's because a lot of writing is, comes from a personal place, and it feels like someone's invading your privacy. If they're reading it. I know that sounds a bit odd, but it's quite a universal feeling when it comes to writers.

Starting point is 00:15:32 So like the thought of the whole class of people reading my work was the most horrific thing. But then once we started doing it and sitting in a circle and like, you know, you would literally go around, the room and everyone would say what they liked and didn't like, which is a horrific, like, thing. Like, that's, like, terrifying. This is, like, me, you know, very new to writing. But it was,

Starting point is 00:15:52 like, the most valuable thing I'd ever done. Like, now I'm so good at taking feedback, especially, like, criticism, or constructive criticism, I should say. So you don't feel like that anymore? No, absolutely not. Like, now I, obviously, I mean, there's, like, a line. Like, I think sometimes what I've noticed, because I also, like, write novels and that sort of stuff. what I've noticed with that kind of world, and to be fair, screenwriting. Like, you see a lot of it, I'm part of like a lot of groups online and stuff, and people will post sections of their work on, like, online forums and ask the feedback. And some people are so horrible in the way they write their feedback.

Starting point is 00:16:30 Some people will say, oh, well, you know, you've got to have fixed skin in this industry, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, but also, like, don't be a dick and giving feedback to a screenwriter. But the last thing I want to do is upset them because why would I want to want to be. want to do that. They're like baby what they've been working on. You know, I know how it feels when you complete the script and you absolutely like adore it and you've, you know, you're working on it for aid. It's literally like a child. And then you give it to someone to critique. Of course, I don't want to upset that person. So you have to word it in like certain ways. And like one thing I actually like learned from these screenwriting classes was a good way to give feedback is to

Starting point is 00:17:07 like sandwich it. So I like to say something good, then a piece of criticism and then something good again. So you're sandwiching with two good things. And I think that's a really good way of doing it. So like if I've given my work to someone to critique or whatever and they are really rude, I'll just kind of end the exchange. Because normally you exchange work with someone. That's how it works. That you exchange you work with someone else if you want it for free. You pick them and they critique you. And there has been sentences where people have been really harsh with the way they say things. And it's like, I don't need that. I don't want to basically feel like crap every time I read or critique. I want to feel like inspired to

Starting point is 00:17:44 work on my script and change it and adapt it. And I think that's the difference of feedback. Normally I'm fine with taking it and like it's something that I'm just determined to them work on and improve. But I think sometimes people just, I don't know. I don't know why people do it, but some people just are really horrible with the way they say things. No, yeah, I understand.

Starting point is 00:18:03 I was going to ask, why do you think is that? But you said you don't know. I thought maybe they want to feel, you know, superior, that they give you like critical things? feedback so they feel better or maybe people just don't realize well yeah that's it like maybe some people just don't realize that the words they are saying are coming across harsh because like obviously the way things are written sometimes aren't perceived the way they're supposed to like you know like through like text messages and stuff sometimes you say something and it's not perceived the way it's

Starting point is 00:18:30 supposed to be but I do think it's probably more that they want to feel superior they want to make someone else feel not great basically yeah yeah I was going to say back with the university, I remember that we were recommended some reading books. And although, as I said before, I wasn't really interested in screenwriting. I must say that those books for scriptwriters were really interesting even for me. For example, I remember probably the classic hero with a thousand faces. It was like one of the first books we got. And then there was, I think, Save the Cat and Story.

Starting point is 00:19:06 Yeah, Save the Cat is like my absolute favorite one. I think that book is incredible. Yeah, I remember the teacher recommended that and I wanted really interesting, you know, even for myself. So you as a screenwriter, did you find them also as interesting or useful? Yeah, definitely. Like I say, Sabercat is my absolute favorite. Like anytime I'm editing the scripts and I want to like, because I normally will recommend the screenwriter some like books on certain things that like. I'll give them like areas of improvement or whatever and I'll recommend certain books.

Starting point is 00:19:39 And I pretty much every time without fail, recommend Save the Cat, because of the Beaching. I just think if you follow the Beach sheet, you're not going to have a problem with your structure ever because I just think it's perfect. So I always recommend that one. And yeah, Story as well by Robert. I think it's Robert McKee. That's a really good one. It's a bit like chunky in a sense of like the book is really thick. And it's just like a lot of words.

Starting point is 00:20:01 And I normally don't like reading stuff like that because I'm rejected. So I can't read it. Like it literally doesn't make sense. I prefer but like more spaced out have some like pretty diagrams or something you know like in that sense it's not great but the actual information is really great and really worthwhile what other ones will be given I can't remember there was that one there was oh we weren't given this one but we were recommended screenwriting updated by Linda Aronson which that has a lot of diagrams in it some of them are really great and it's a lot of like structural stuff but out of all of them that's my least favorite one like that's the one I've like used the least And I think it might be helpful. But for some people who are more who prefer like diagrams and stuff like that, then perhaps they would prefer that one. But for me, it's not one of my favorites.

Starting point is 00:20:50 And what do you think of hero with 1,000 faces? Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, I haven't read that since you need. But I think, like, with especially that one, but also just the other screenwriting books you mentioned, even if you're, like, not a screenwriter, they are really useful to read. Because I understand that, you know, if you're like directing or producing or whatever, you're not directly going to be like writing the script.

Starting point is 00:21:13 But like you obviously still need to kind of, I guess, understand screenwriting and understand, you know, the way characters need to work within a story. And I think here in a thousand places is really good for that, you know, about the kind of structure of a story and about the character's journey throughout. And I think anyone working in film needs to understand that, not just screenwriters, if that makes sense. I agree. I have at least basic knowledge. Yeah. exactly. And are there any other books that maybe you found very helpful or after uni or you would recommend? The ones I always use are reading screenplays by Lucy Shear. That one, I think if you know how to properly read a screenplay, then you'll know how to write one, basically. So I think that's a

Starting point is 00:21:57 really good word. The art of script editing, which I know sounds strange to say, oh, you know, read a book about script editing if you're a screenwriter. But again, if you like know how to edit a script until you know what script-ednesses are looking for, then you're going to be better at screw-knife, have my sense? I don't know. It's kind of an odd one, but it's kind of similar to story in a sense of it's quite text-heavy, but it's nowhere near as big, so it's not as intimidating to sit down and read.

Starting point is 00:22:22 So, yeah, that one as well. That's been my recommendation. Yeah, sounds good. So with the university at the end of the uni, when the COVID happened, what was your final year task instead of short film? Was it a script? Yeah, so my was always a script. Obviously, I was, I think, like, 20% or something of our grade was practical in a sense of being on films.

Starting point is 00:22:45 But the rest of it was we had a 45-minute screenplay we had to write. That was our main chunk of our grade. Anyway, the whole time, so even when COVID hit it was the same. So, yeah, we'd been planning them all year. And then it was just as we started writing them, that's when COVID hit. So the only thing that changed was that instead of being in the class we were on Zoo, everything was the same in a sense of we still had the actors come and read the scripts like we did like a table read with actors they still came and did that join you over

Starting point is 00:23:15 the zoom yeah oh wow sounds good yeah no it was really cool it was actually like I was a really fun class and I'd never well I say I'd never had my script read to me I had kind of with in second year when we had the um you know when like we had cool of scripts that had been written and then we had to choose yes once to met two groups chose my one and I sort of had them read back to me. Sort of, I mean, one group completely changed the whole trip, an interesting experience, but one group didn't. And that was like really cool.

Starting point is 00:23:47 But I'd never been in like a table read where, you know, I'd had actors read through like a whole script of mine. So that was like a really cool experience. Even if it was over the Zoom, it was just really cool. And the woman who played one of my characters, it was just perfect. And I was like, oh my God, like if I was making this into an actual film, like I would have casted her like she was just honestly she was perfect with the way she said and like lines and stuff and it was really cool like watching it kind of comes alive and when you said

Starting point is 00:24:14 before the day changed your script how did you feel about it was it better or worse or it kind of hurt you it didn't hurt me because you know fair enough like do what you want obviously I think my version was better I don't know I think when the films were then made and we had like the final versions, the one that was sort of perceived better. Oh my God, I'm going to sound very arrogant, but I'm going to say it. The one that was best thing better was the one that they hadn't changed loads of. They've changed the ending, which is fair enough because I didn't really like the ending anyway, but I just couldn't think of anything else to do, so I just did the ending that I did.

Starting point is 00:24:53 So they changed the ending and everything and I was like, but they kind of came to me and said, oh, like, how do you think we should really write this? This is the ending we want. How do you think we should do it sort of thing. whereas the other group didn't even talk to me if that makes sense they kind of... They said that we were right to change it

Starting point is 00:25:08 and I was like, oh yeah, do it on I don't know, it's fine but that was kind of it they didn't ask any advice on like how they wanted to change it or anything which I found a little bit like oh but you know it's university and you know like I know that

Starting point is 00:25:22 in the real industry like you know your scripts are going to get changed and whatever so yeah it's not that deep do you know what I mean like it's fine but I preferred the version that was my But it's still, you know, nice that two teams speak to your script. Oh, yeah, I was absolutely thrilled. I was actually like, oh my God, I remember writing that and I was like so worried.

Starting point is 00:25:43 Like, oh my God, if it doesn't get in the pool, like that's like really embarrassing. Like I've called myself a screenwriter. Like I've got all about how passionate I am about writing. It doesn't get picked and that's just really humiliating. And then it did. And I was so relieved. And I was like, oh, thank God. It made me kind of reassured me that I was good at writing.

Starting point is 00:26:01 thing. So when it got hooked by two groups, I was like, oh my god, like it was, yeah, it was amazing. It was a really good feeling. Can you remind me briefly what was the script? What was it about? It was about three, like, young adults who were like unemployed and didn't, you know, have any money, no jobs, whatever. And they broke into their old primary school to steal some laptops to sales, to make money. But when they went inside, they kind of take a trip down memory lane and they remember like what it was like being young and being like optimistic and all that and then the main character realizes that you know what they're doing is wrong and they um basically yes and I remember tied their lives around yeah

Starting point is 00:26:43 it's called miseducation and how was the script in third year did you have like some kind of idea that you wanted to adapt for a long time or did you start thinking about it in the third year I'd written a short story which I wanted to adapt into a short film so that's the idea that I used and it was like Like, well, I call it a war story, but I was actually told, not told off, but I was told I couldn't call it that because a war story has to take place on the battlefield, which to me doesn't make sense because the war wasn't just on the battlefield. The war was everywhere. The war was like, you know, I'm talking about World War II, by the way. I probably should have said that. But like, my story took place in England during World War II with like the evacuations and all that. And I'd written short story because my granddad used to always tell me stories about when he was evacuated and stuff. He lived in London. was about nine, I believe, when he was evacuated the first time. He said, tell him all these stories, and that's what kind of inspired this short story about a boy being evacuated, and basically, spoiler, he meets a ghost that lives in the attic.

Starting point is 00:27:45 And, yeah, that's basically like, but you're not supposed to, like, find that out till the end, obviously. But I don't know, it's confusing. I'm not going to, like, try and describe the whole script. Yeah, I basically wanted to turn that into a scream play, which, um, it worked, to be fair. like it fit into the four to five minutes quite well. And when we were doing like the feedback lessons, I got some really, really lovely feedback on it,

Starting point is 00:28:06 which was really nice. Some really constructive criticism on how to improve it. And then I think in the end, I got the highest grid I ever got at uni on the script and the like portfolio thing combined, which was really nice because I'd put like a lot of work into that script, a lot. And so it was really nice to actually kind of get, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:26 something like for that. Normally I'm the opposite. Like I put those of work in. and I'll still do really bad. So you are happy with the result in the out? Oh yeah, absolutely, like, really, really proud of it. And the script means a lot to me in a sense of, like I say, my granddad really helped me kind of with creating the character and the story.

Starting point is 00:28:45 It's kind of sound strange, but two characters are basically based off him, like the little boy who gets evacuated and the ghost that he means. Both are just sort of based off my granddad, but at different stages in his life. And, like, when I was interviewing my granddad for it, I, like, recorded it and everything. And like whenever I listen back to the recording, like he sounds really like excited, kind of is talking as if like, you know, I was writing a film about him and he was like, you know, oh, you can use this, but you don't have to use that if you don't want to. Like that's a bit boring, you know, and like it's just really sweet. And like, unfortunately, my brand and I

Starting point is 00:29:17 passed away first year of COVID. So kind of having that memory attached to that script is actually really, really amazing if that makes sense. And like that it means so much more to me now because it's kind of, you know, the last thing that I did with him was create that story. So yeah, it's definitely like one of the most special kind of things I've ever written, I'd say. Just a quick one. If you enjoy our podcast, please give us a review on your favorite podcast app, subscribe or share it with your friends. For more information, visit the show notes. Thank you and back to the show.

Starting point is 00:29:48 I'm not sure if it happened before or after, but did your grandpa had the chance to read it in the end? Unfortunately not. But I don't think personally he would have. enjoyed like trying to read a script if that makes sense like watching a film would have been different but i think he would have found it difficult to follow a screenplay but no he never got the chance to um read it but i was able to put because he was buried i was able to put a copy of the script in the coffin with him so as like silly as it probably sounds i feel like you know he he has read it somehow sort of thing so so yeah well yeah sounds quite emotional but

Starting point is 00:30:24 interesting story behind it before we move from the topic of the university is there something you would like to mention? Or maybe are there any tips you would give to someone who wants to study at university? I would say that just going, because I didn't know this, and this is the one thing that makes me think maybe, if I'd known this, I might not have chosen university, and that's that the film industry don't particularly like people with degrees. Because I think everyone should know that. Like, everyone who's going, who's interested in studying film should know that if you're going because you want to learn more, great, but don't go. I was thinking, oh, well, if I had this degree on my CV, I'm going to get a job in film a lot easier.

Starting point is 00:31:04 Because I didn't know that. And then it took third year. And I remember sitting there thinking, like, why am I here? Like, why in the dictates this sort of thing? So I think, yeah, everyone should know that, that it's not going to get your job. And some tips, how to get most after the university? I think a big part of the university is the university experience, you know, enjoying yourself, making friends. Like, I still have, you know, my best friends are from uni.

Starting point is 00:31:28 but at the same time, like, you are there to study. And I'm not saying put your time into studying, but I think a large portion of your time should be studying and working and, you know, making the most of the fact that you're there with all these resources, with these teachers, with these people who have so much knowledge on the subject, and you want to make the most of that. So I think, you know, have fun and make friends and go out and party and whatever,

Starting point is 00:31:52 of course. But don't forget why you're at uni, and that is obviously to study and to get a degree at the end of day. make sure you do work hard and I'm not the most judicious of people like I barely pass my GCSEs you know like I'm not intelligent in that sense but I you know I very much like pushed myself into making sure that I got my assignments done on time and that I studied and listened and worked hard because if I hadn't I definitely wouldn't have passed so yeah just put the work in but also have fun yeah so how did you start planning your way into the industry after you only

Starting point is 00:32:27 Well, for like, oh my God, maybe like a year or more, I was very, like, bitter about how the way it ended. And I was quite angry. And, like, you know, I was sort of blaming COVID on the fact that I was back living at home. Well, at that time, I was working in admin, which, oh, my God, worst job ever, like, so boring. I was writing in my own time and I was like, I was working on a lot of novels at that time, more so than scripts. Still writing, but... Writing for yourself. or for someone else.

Starting point is 00:32:59 We're just just writing for myself, like writing ideas that I'd had, I had like a couple of ideas at university and I was just sort of like, because I had so much time, I was able to properly get into them. And it was really nice. If I thinking back,

Starting point is 00:33:11 like COVID was a stressful time and a pretty dark time for a lot of people. But there were definitely moments that I remember that I'm like, you know what, actually I really enjoyed having so much time to write and all of that. But I was very like bitter and angry that I very much felt like if COVID hadn't happened,

Starting point is 00:33:26 I would have still been living in London. I would have found my way into the industry somehow. Which probably wouldn't have even happened, but that's what I thought. You know, COVID kind of ruined everything. But then it got to a point when I was like, well, I am where I am. I can't change that right now. Like, I can't move back to London. I can't, because it's just not possible.

Starting point is 00:33:46 But I was, like, determined to do something with my degree. Like, I had a degree. And I was like, what can I do with it? Because sitting around moping and blaming, like, COVID is not getting. me anywhere. So then I was like, well, I'd done a bit of like exchanging of scripts and books and stuff like that and giving feedback and I really enjoyed doing it. Like I really enjoy kind of analyzing other people's work and I really like helping other people kind of develop their work, I guess. So I was like, well, I enjoy that. I'm like, seem to be okay at it. Maybe I could look into

Starting point is 00:34:18 doing that and a lot of like script editors do work like freelance. You know, they don't like work for a specific company, they just kind of freelance on their own. So I was like, oh, maybe I could give that a go. And I started on Fiverr, which was a good way to like find people, but also like Fiver took quite a big cut of what you earn. And I didn't like that because I was like, you know, I'm doing all the work. So why like you've been like loads of my money away? So I decided to then like create my own website and my own sort of brand and do it that way instead. And I definitely don't get as many like offers yeah the good thing about fibre is obviously kind of puts your advert out there a bit more and obviously having just your website is a lot harder to get yourself out there but it feels a lot more

Starting point is 00:35:07 real i guess and more authentic that i can do it like myself and these people normally find me via youtube or ticot because you know a bit of a ticotker i like some like ticot videos about script editing and stuff and that's how i try to advertise myself a bit But yeah, they normally find me through that. And the people I worked with so far, they've all been, like, great. Like, I've read some really incredible scripts. And yeah, and that's how I got into that. It's very much still at the like the beginnings.

Starting point is 00:35:36 I think I've been doing it for about a year now. Like, properly, it took me a while to set it all up. And I've been on a bit of a break recently because I've just literally moved back to London. And I didn't want to have to kind of deal with that whilst I was like homeless for like two weeks because my flat wasn't ready. and I was in like a hostel, it was awful. Yeah, I didn't really want to be kind of having to like email people explaining, oh, I can't actually do it right now. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:36:00 So I just kind of reached my settings to automatic letting people know that I'm like on leave or whatever. So I haven't really been doing much of it recently. In fact, I've just literally switched it back online, if that makes sense. But like, yeah, it's been a really amazing experience so far. I wish I could do it full time and live off it. But unfortunately, I do not earn anywhere near enough to, live in London, half wire. I understand.

Starting point is 00:36:26 And if the COVID didn't happen, did you have like a plan, how to start or what jobs to apply for or what steps to take? I mean, before COVID, I was, I still do want to work on film sets at some point. Like that's kind of my goal is I would like to actually work on a set. I'd like to kind of obviously start off as a runner and then just see where that takes me and see kind of what position I could climb to. That would be like my own dream. I still do want to do that,

Starting point is 00:36:54 but that was definitely what my heart was set on when uni was ending. Because I think when it comes to writing, it's more of like a, it's hard to describe without like diminishing it because it's not a hobby by any means. Like I think people are serious about it. It's not a hobby. It's a genuine passion.

Starting point is 00:37:09 It's just something that you obviously want to pursue. But it feels like a hobby because a lot of it you have to do in your own time and you're doing it. You know, you're not earning money by sitting at your desk, writing a screenplay, you know, about something that you want to then go and pitch to someone. And like right now I'm working on an adaptation with an author and like all that time that we're spending on that,

Starting point is 00:37:30 neither of us are earning any money doing it, but we're hoping that one day we can pitch it and potentially sell it to someone sort of thing. So I think because of that's the way kind of screenwriting works, especially when you're starting off, it's the sort of thing that you kind of have to do alongside another job because obviously you need to live. So my kind of plan was like,

Starting point is 00:37:50 oh, I want to, you know, I want to get a job on a film set. I want to, like, be a runner or something. So my plan was that when Uni ended, I would basically just start applying for every single runner job. I could possibly get my hands on and just see what happens, see if I'd get anywhere. And I've always kind of been inclined when it comes to apply to jobs of like, I don't even know where I saw this, but I saw this bit of advice.

Starting point is 00:38:12 I was probably online somewhere that was never say no to yourself. And like, I need how I'm like applying for a job. even if I think it's a long shot I'm like well I'm not going to say no to myself I'll let them say no to me I think it's a room that good thing to keep in your mind because it's like it kind of pushes you to apply for stuff that maybe you wouldn't apply for

Starting point is 00:38:31 because why not like you've got nothing to lose the worse they can no so just go for it so that was my plan was to just apply for any run a job I could find it's still to be fair like eventually that is what I want to do but I'm just trying to settle back into London life which we know is very expensive. And I do want that looking for those runner jobs again, but we'll see, I guess. We'll

Starting point is 00:38:55 see. Yeah, fingers growth. If you worked on a set, where would you want to go from a runner position? Is there like a specific position you would want to do that would help you to ultimately become a screenwriter? Well, I did like a bit of script supervision in uni, which I did really enjoy. I know like no one like that position at uni, but I actually really enjoyed it. I guess because you are working closely with the scripts, and I very much can, like, read scripts and kind of understand scripts quite easily. I spend most of my time staring at them. And especially when you're editing someone else's script, you know, sometimes it can be difficult because you're not inside the head of the writer and you might not understand what they're trying to do, and it can

Starting point is 00:39:38 be tricky. So I think I'm quite good at, like, understanding scripts. So, yeah, I always enjoyed doing that, but I think I also really enjoyed, which I know sounds insane, but I did enjoy first A-Ding, Like I quite like, not being in control, that sounds a bit weird, but like I like organizing people and like being like, hey, you need to be there, you need to be there, you know, etc, etc. So I think like, you know, that would be the natural progression of you start off as a runner and then you kind of try and work your way up and up into that kind of side of the production. It's definitely something I would be interested in. But then on the other hand, I really, you know, really enjoyed casting. Like I loved being in casting room and I think that if you remember, but when we were doing auditions for Hiroith, I was like, please let me in the room.

Starting point is 00:40:23 Like, I really want to castings, but I just really enjoy it. So pre-production-wise, I have actually obliged for a few casting assistant jobs, because that's definitely also something that I would be quite interested in because I do really like that process of filmmaking as well. Yes, casting sounds quite exciting because you meet so many new people and all those people kind of want to do their best in order to get their own. You know, they're putting effort into it, so it's interesting. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Starting point is 00:40:52 And maybe if there was listening someone who doesn't know what we just discussed, can you briefly introduce what does the script supervisor do and first AD? What do they do? So scripts behind this is like, they basically like continuity sort of thing. So they do like a big breakdown of the script and they make note of anything that like could become an issue with continuity. So, like, for example, if you have, like, a dinner scene where people are eating, that's something that you're going to have to obviously keep a close eye on and really watch over when you're filming because you obviously want all the shots to match up.

Starting point is 00:41:29 For example, I was give us, I feel like everyone knows. I've never seen Game of Thrones, but there was that one shot that went viral. Yeah. I know what is coming up. Yeah. That, for example, would be like script supervisor should have noticed that kind of thing. And then alerted the art department. Oh, by the way, there is.

Starting point is 00:41:47 is a Starbucks coffee cup on the table. Is he or she then the person to blame if this happens? Well, sort of, but also something I was told at uni was that a lot of the time you'll say, oh, you know, there's a continuity issue here, but the director will say, no, I don't care. Carry on. So then there are continuity errors and pretty much every film you watch, there's going to be one or two continuity errors. Sometimes they're just unavoidable.

Starting point is 00:42:15 but apparently according to who was a script supervisor said that quite a lot of the time is actually just because the director said no just carry on but then the blame falls on the script supervisor anyway because it's their department, their job if that makes sense. Yes, yes.

Starting point is 00:42:30 So yeah, I mean, yes and no I guess they are the blame but they're also not always to blame sometimes because of the direct. I also remember from her she described the position that as a script supervisor you are kind of the person who is sitting somewhere in a background under the table with your stuff and trying to oversee it and then they quite often even forget about you that you are

Starting point is 00:42:53 there. So it sounds like a position that isn't, it's where important, but it's not much appreciated. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like, I script supervised for one of the only films that managed to get made in third year before COVID hit, which was like, to be fair, a really amazing experience. I absolutely adore that film. But yeah, like on that. set I was, I felt like a little like, I don't know, like a little mouse, just piping up, oh, we need to change this, we need to do that. And to be fair, they were very like willing to kind of listen if that makes sense. Any time I said, oh, we need to change this. He was always on board. He never once said, no, we need to carry on. And we had like a prison scene where there was a prison riot. And I could tell by the look on his face that he was like, oh my God, this is chaos. Like we only had a certain amount of extras. And he wanted to make it look like there was more than there actually was. but he didn't want the same extra to appear in like two different angles, you know, like to make it obvious sort of things. So we were like having to like rotate the extras. And he were like, bless him, looked really like worried about it.

Starting point is 00:43:55 But it turned out fine. Like it looked really amazing. But that film did post quite a few challenges for script supervising. Like, and we had a dinner scene where I told the actors just basically try not to eat anything because it's just going to cause problems. And I don't know if you've noticed this, but like in films, whenever there is a dinner scene, The food always looks incredible, but they never eat. And now I know why, because it's so difficult to get the continuity if characters start eating.

Starting point is 00:44:21 So how did you feel about where you scared before that scene with Fryeat or were kind of excited that, wow, this is my moment to, you know, show myself? Yeah, like it was really nerve-wracking, but it was actually really enjoyable. Like, it was really cool to see that all come to live. And I would say, actually, I was more nervous when we had the dinner scene. Like, that was really freaking me out. I was so anxious about it. I was like, oh my God, I was going to each actor, like, please just don't eat anything.

Starting point is 00:44:46 Like, and they didn't eat anything. But the lead actor, he picked up the jug of water. It's like pouring water for some reason while they were doing their lives. And then we did be finished at the master shot. And then he was like, oh, I don't know why I did that. And then we didn't really have time to refil it. So then in every single other like angle, he had to do exactly the same thing, pouring this all that in everything like, hey, I was just like, mate.

Starting point is 00:45:14 And he just looked like, you know, why the hell did I do that? It's like really complicated. But to be fair, when I watch it back, there aren't actually that many errors in that scene. There's the odd bit that you're like, but nothing too major. So it's fine. It worked out. Still there are some? Yeah, there's a couple.

Starting point is 00:45:34 And it is, I guess it is my fault. Was it because you did the... notice or was it too hard or impossible? We tried our best to match it up. We literally were there rehearsing it. Like, we'd written on the script, like when to pick up water. That's actually how, like, I literally sat down with him and was like, right. So you pick up water on this line.

Starting point is 00:45:55 If you pour it on this line, then you pick up that cup on this line. Try to do it as best we could. But there are a couple of moments where, like, if you're really watching closely, if you're focusing on the water, you would obviously notice. but I'm hoping that when people watch it, they're just focusing on what the characters are talking about and therefore they're not actually looking at the water, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:17 If I was watching and you didn't tell me, I wouldn't probably notice. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think I only noticed it because I'm looking for it because I'm like, oh my God, this was my moment. I'm not messed up. No, yeah. It sounds like something you need to pay attention all the time to the details.

Starting point is 00:46:35 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. because then you forget then someone watches the film and you find out then it's too late yeah no it's very much like you know you can't stand there having a chat with someone you've got to be focused the whole time

Starting point is 00:46:50 because you could just miss something and then it's your film eventually and how was the film Indian actually oh I love it like they just released it on like an actual platform so like people can watch it because for ages it was in you know, it was like in film festivals and stuff so they couldn't release it.

Starting point is 00:47:10 But like, sometimes I'd just go back and watch it and I'm like, oh my God, I've such good memories from doing it and it just turned out, it just looks incredible. It really does and like did a great job with the producing side of things like getting the prison location. How do you get a prison? Do I mean? Like that's amazing. I remember when he came into our screenwriting class to talk about the script because he wrote the script. And I remember like when we read it out, I was like, gosh,

Starting point is 00:47:36 This is like one of my favorite scripts I've heard so far, like very much my kind of story, like a nice drama, really like nice character development and stuff. And yeah, and I was like happy when, because they asked like, they said, oh, can we talk to you? And I was like, oh, my God, what you are? And then they were like, oh, we wouldn't need if you'd be our scripting class. And I was like, oh, my God, like, yes. Because I was like really loved the script anyway. So to be able to then work on the film and work so closely with the script was like really exciting. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:04 Sounds like a good experience. And also lucky that managed to film it before the call. Literally, I remember being on set and reading about how preschool, where my parents live, had to close because of COVID. And I remember reading that literally was making myself a cup of tea. But that's such a distinct memory in my head because that was kind of like the first time I'd properly like realized, oh my God, COVID's actually serious. Yeah, it's like a genuine like that thing.

Starting point is 00:48:28 But yeah, we managed to literally film it. And then I think it was the next film I was on where after ours went, wrong with the storm and stuff and I was literally it was like the following day and we were about to leave and then we were like yeah we can't like it's all been cancelled because of COVID it was literally like a week after it all went hair shaped so yeah we were very very lucky to get it shot I remember it was crazy and it's like no one knew what what was happening when are going to make it if you are going to make it it was really horrific not a good memory and when it comes to being a first AD

Starting point is 00:49:04 Can you say a bit more about the drone? Yeah, I mean, the best way to describe that, I think, is that it's like the on-set producer. So you're there to kind of make sure that people that, like, shooting schedule is sort of going right, that you're doing the shots that need to be done at the right time. You want to get everything that's on the schedule shot within the day. So you're kind of just making sure you're basically the most hated person on set because you yenna everyone. I mean, basically, you know, yeah, and everyone just they hurry up and everyone yells back at you, saying, like, we want to do one more sort of thing.

Starting point is 00:49:32 Well, I was obviously first AD for you and Miguel's production. And obviously we had issues getting down there. So we were way behind schedule. So I was in the van, like ringing the camera department, which we were in a different car, basically trying to figure out what we're going to film, you know, what we're going to cut and everything and all that to fit it in. And obviously then we had the storm. And I had to make the call of basically canceling it, which was so hard.

Starting point is 00:49:58 Because I was like, I remember being on the phone. And he was like, well, what's your plan V? and I was like, I ain't got one, mate, because we, of like, the weather, this literally came out of nowhere. We checked the weather yesterday and it was fine. We're here today and we're literally in a monsoon. There is no plan B. The plan B is to go home and have to reschedule. Like, there is no other choice.

Starting point is 00:50:17 We don't have like a bloody sound stage. Do you know? I mean, like we... No, yeah, I agree. Especially, you can have a plan B, but it was kind of impossible because, you know, the productions were scheduled so tightly that if you're... your schedule, you don't have a crew. And then when we are going to make it, when you are going to do post-production, are you going

Starting point is 00:50:37 to make it on time? Yeah, exactly. It was a really, like, all the situation to VM because I remember, like, you weren't there. Yeah, I don't know. Where were you, like, traveling down or you were, like, meeting us? Because there are some issues with the equipment. And because I was probably the least needed person to be physically on a set, I was about to come a bit later after I get equipment from the kitchen.

Starting point is 00:51:00 And I remember I was standing on a train station just a few minutes from getting on a bus to get to you. And, you know, unsure if I should get on or not get on because it was getting it. This was crazy, honestly. Yeah, I remember literally being in like middle of the woods, raining. We had like Sonero who was the actress like just, she was lovely. She said, she was like, oh, it's fine, it's fine. But she was just getting absolutely soaked. We had all this camera equipment covered with like tarpool in.

Starting point is 00:51:29 And we were just to go and I was like, guys, and I remember Miguel looked at me and he's like, his eyes widened in like fear. And I was like, guys, this isn't going to work. Like, I think we're going to have to cancel. And it was so horrible having to like say those words. But I feel like I'm going to have to make this call. And it's just we're either going to damage the equipment, damage an actor. It's just not going to work. Like, we're just going to have to reschedule and obviously never got the chance to because of COVID.

Starting point is 00:51:55 But yeah, that was like being a SIPAD is no joke. like it's genuinely really like you have to have I think quite fixed skin to do it because you are kind of the person who has to make hard decisions you have to be the unpopular person who tells people to hurry up basically and yeah but I quite like it

Starting point is 00:52:14 I quite like telling people what to do and there is on bigger productions also second AD right or even more ADs yeah like I was a third AD on someone else's production oh there do I yeah on it was Was it the year above us? Yeah, I think we were in second year, and it was the third year productions. But yeah, I was third AD on that film, which was really cool because I kind of got to see, you know, they had like a big, um, what you call it, like a big arm thing that had the camera on it.

Starting point is 00:52:44 And it was like going around the room. It was really cool. And I remember thinking, like, oh my God, this is what we've got to look forward to in third year, like doing these like bigger productions and stuff. So yeah, I don't know if you can have more than a third AD, but you can definitely have first, second and third. I'm not sure about fourth and fifth, but... And why was it actually third AD? Was it a big crew or cast or production overall? I don't...

Starting point is 00:53:08 It wasn't necessarily like that big of a crew on production and stuff. They had the position going and I sort of got in touch with the scene and just said, oh, I'd be really interested in that. Because I was producing our short film at the time for second year. And I said it would be great experience if I could kind of see you producing your final project. And she was like, absolutely. So she, yeah, maybe she sort of let me do it because it was more of like a, you know, I kind of asked. And I see, she was like, yeah, here you go, third AD.

Starting point is 00:53:37 But yeah, because it wasn't necessarily a big enough production to need a third AD. But yeah, it was a really good experience, actually. And did you still have a lot to do? Yeah, I was more like helping, jumping around different departments. Like, I was helping a bit in the art department with setting up the props and stuff, and helping with the actors. Like I was kind of doing a bit of all sorts. if that makes sense, I wasn't just focusing on like schedule or anything like that

Starting point is 00:54:02 or just focusing on looking after the actors. I was doing a bit of everything, which was actually really cool, like, because it meant I could kind of see all the different departments, like, doing their thing. But yeah, it was cool. Then we discussed before working casting, but I think it's kind of self-explanatory. So I'm trying to say more. Or is there something you would like to say about that at all? Not really.

Starting point is 00:54:23 It's just literally casting, casting people, like, you know, watching auditions. start yeah yeah it sounds kind of how to say it like an interesting job you are basically there and sharing your opinion and just telling people you are you know fit for the role you are not fit for the i would not say it's easy or that you don't do much but sounds like a good job to do for me yeah definitely less stressful than fast day doing that's for sure yeah i think there is still plenty of stuff to discuss so if you agreed i would recommend maybe to finish for today and to do second part sometime in the future? Yeah, yeah, that's fine by me.

Starting point is 00:55:02 Because there are still plenty of questions to ask. So, Ema Jeline, thank you for coming today and I'll be happy to do part two in the future if we're up for it. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. We wish you good luck in your career and see you soon.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Thanks, thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to Produced Bye. Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast, leave a review or send us your feedback. more information about the host, links from the episode and ways to connect with us, visit the show notes. If you know someone who would be an ideal guest for our podcast, please get in touch. Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - #12 - Evangeline Parry: When One Film Sparks Lasting Passion For Screenwriting

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