Produced By - #22 - Caitlyn Ebsworthy: Passion Behind The Art Of Shooting Music and Football

Starting point is 00:00:02 Caitlin Epsilworthy is a photographer and videographer specializing in documenting the music industry and professional football. Originally from Devon, Caitlin relocated to London to attend to university and pursue her love of photography and video. Her career has carried her to several countries, including the US and Spain, where she has worked with Broadway performers, labeled artists, football clubs and academies. Started with football, we talked about Caitlin's experience photography. the chances she had to visit other countries and the actual procedure. Then we dug a little deeper and looked at the LGBT community's present situation in football, as well as Caitlin's preferred teams and players. After discussing music photography,

Starting point is 00:00:47 Caitlin offered some highlights from her experience, photographing performance. It would make most of us envious. If you happen to be a musician, planning a tour, Caitlin is a person to get in touch with, even if it's a moral. This is to this episode to learn more about to learn more about to be. to learn more about numerous topics related to football scene, receive an introduction to shooting ball football and music, and be motivated by Caitlin's positive attitude.

Starting point is 00:01:10 Enjoy. Hello, Caitlin. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me on, yeah, I'm excited, should be good. Can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, when people ask, I'm kind of quite specific in my field and I would say I'm a music photographer, a videographer, but I also work within professional football and as of recent beach soccer as well. So I try and keep that kind of specific niche of music photography and football as well.

Starting point is 00:01:39 So I shot it to veer off. So you do photograph in professional football, right? Yeah, that kind of was as a result of COVID, to be honest, because there was no music. And I've always way before I did any photography, a videography or just anything to do with film and things like that, I play football. to have pretty good standard played academy and then I got injured really badly when I was about 13 paid for Plymouthar Giles Academy in Devon

Starting point is 00:02:05 and had like to compete that was it, could not continue, level of injury so I just lightly followed it I've always been like a fan of Newcastle United so I'm very happy at the minute I'm very happy at this a minute with how my team were getting on but during COVID obviously it had nothing to do and I'd kind of got way back more into following it again

Starting point is 00:02:23 and kind of reached out to X to City actually I think at the time they were looking for like a social media assistant but they got back to me and said did I want to come down and see how I got on at one of the home games? I really liked what I shot video-wise

Starting point is 00:02:38 and then they just kind of kept inviting me back and I spent 20-21 season with them in League 2 and yeah, did a few bits with them and then have done like some on-off bits with them since and I ended up then going out to Bain and working with a club called FC Malaga City so it was all because of country

Starting point is 00:02:55 ironically. When no one had any work, it actually got me some work, so that was nice. But it sounds like you managed to combine your two patients, although you cannot play anymore, but still football and photography? Yeah, I mean, I try and do a little bit, like training in the summer with my friend just for kind of fitness levels, because it's like a whole different use of your cardiovascular system. You get on the pitch and you're like, oh, wow, I haven't played for a hot minute, and now I'm struggling after five minutes of running. Yeah, no, it's nice. You know, you get to be amongst it,

Starting point is 00:03:24 and as I can I support you,castle, so it's super exciting for me at the minute. It's nice to kind of jump in and out of that. And yeah, it seems to be fairly consistent in terms of getting little bits of bobs. It means I get to work abroad a fair bit, which is really nice. So will your goal be to be a photographer of Premier League club? Primary League Club. You know, I would love to kind of come in and I quite like working like player-specific content, which is really fun.

Starting point is 00:03:51 I did a little bit with a player called Ryan Edwards, and he was playing the play with a player. Burton Albion was transferring to Bousson Park in Korea. I think he's just signed to a club in the third division of Spain. But it was doing kind of like mid-season fitness and kind of like a hype video kind of thing. And I'd probably like to do more of that kind of stuff with players. But yeah, I love to shoot a game. I like for the stadiums park or something. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:12 Does it mean that they are shooting for a specific footballer rather than the whole club? Or how does it work? So I was working with a club called FC Malaga City, which is not to be confused with Malaga City, which is the Le L'eniga side. It's like a private academy in the town called Amniakra in Spain. It's near manned about 45 minutes. And I was working with them for about five weeks

Starting point is 00:04:33 towards the 10 end of COVID's lockdown here, which was 2021, like May, June time, over then for five weeks. And they had Ryan Edwards come out because he was then going over to Korea. And I got to work with him just with the owner of the club. He has an agency. He kind of contacted him, worked with him,

Starting point is 00:04:52 brought him over to do preseason training. So I did that with him there while I was working for the other club. Yeah, it's quite good, it's varied. People kind of just think football photography or football videography is just match day, taking pictures of the game. But there's some really great photographers out there who are shooting like 35mm out in Italy and just really changing how content is created in football, which is really interesting. So does it mean that you create a content and then they share it on social media, website?

Starting point is 00:05:22 Yeah, so depending on what does. the club need or what the club want or the player wants, it does tend to be mostly social media content. I think because the output for most of my work, be that music or football, does tend to be social media. I suppose it's good for audience traffic, it's good for just highlighting what's going on. For Malagher City, for example, it's encouraging young players to come over from a lot of the time America to the academy and I want to play for the academy. For other players, it's just to raise their profile on social media, I suppose. It's crazy kind of when you look down at, you know,

Starting point is 00:05:57 you'll see players who, I think, Sammy Simmons, he plays for PSV, and when he was at Barcelona's Academy, he was like the most followed under, I think he was 18-year-old on social media or something or Instagram, and his profile was raised so, so much, and I think that probably helped with that initial transfer to Paris Sejejejean. Definitely social media is a massive,

Starting point is 00:06:19 almost like transfer boost for people, So I think it helps players again just raise their profile And again for the clubs it's just Look at Cristiano Ronaldo going over to Saudi Arabia Their social media is just from crazy So obviously money's kind of be at the end of that I think But yeah so gaining attention on your club Gaining fans, followers

Starting point is 00:06:38 It all helps I think generate that football ecosystem So Yeah I think I saw recently like a chart with At least that make the most money I don't want to lie But I think Ronaldo was maybe the first one and I would say that a very high percentage of his revenue wasn't actually from playing football

Starting point is 00:06:55 but from like advertisement, social media, promotion and stuff like that. So that's a good point that it plays where important role. I mean, look at Paris de Jermann again to bring them up. They were the first club be specifically sponsored or supplied by Jordan. And that's like you're delving into fashion there at that point. The club is sometimes, I think I hear a third to as more of a fashion brand than a football club. having Mbapé signed to Nike is crazy how much the fashion affects the brand of the club

Starting point is 00:07:27 I think they did a team photo last season and they hid messy shoes under the they basically hid his shoes because he was the only athlete on that bench that was sponsored by Adidas like these tiny specific things and yeah it's crazy so with this shooting for a club or specific players does it work like that with basically all the players and all the clubs in football

Starting point is 00:07:48 for example let's say each club has specific photographers or the player so most clubs have like a club photographer there's a really fantastic UK based ones who are doing a lot of really interesting for a long time a lot of football photography was just

Starting point is 00:08:04 very bland and generic these shots that had no kind of depth of they were just very very boring and then you've got a lot of people bringing in really interesting stars of photography really nice colour grading Bournemouth are a big club recognised there. Wolves have a really strong social media. Very specifically orange and teal grading on their

Starting point is 00:08:24 photos and it looks great. It suits the club branding and ethos, I think. Man City again, really working to kind of have this coherent looking. I think again, it all looks specifically good on the Instagram. If you look at Man City's Instagram feed, this coherent color grading is going on, even the editing for the videos, everything is so specific. But then you see, you know, There are a lot of players, like you said, having this Instagram content, and there's some really, really great photography going on in videography, and they're having them coming to the matches and shoot concept for them during the game, specifically just of them.

Starting point is 00:09:01 It's a difficult line to walk in terms of what's allowed to be posted and what's not, and you have a certain liability for things, and it's all very interesting murky water that I don't know sometimes how access is granted, specifically like primary league size and things. Yeah, it's an interesting situation going on in the football world. So did you get like specific guidelines or rules that you have to follow for this specific team or the player to adhere to? So with Exeter, I wasn't technically allowed to shoot photo. I don't really know the situation and now because it seems like that doesn't apply to their videographer at the minute.

Starting point is 00:09:36 So I don't really know what was going on there. Because again, I don't really know how one line is specific for one person and not for another. So I don't really know what that situation was. but I knew I was the last shoot video for the club, and we were limited in regards to access anyway because of COVID, so the season I worked with them, all the grounds specifically had, like green zones, red zones, amber zones,

Starting point is 00:10:00 your past depended on where you could access. You know, you're wearing masks the whole time, can't get too close to the players. That was really interesting. And then, for example, like Ryan Edwards went out with him, I think he was still contracted to New Balance the time, so I was trying to obviously get as much of the branding in as possible so that again it looks good for him to tag the brand in and stuff

Starting point is 00:10:20 Malaga City they work with Nike they don't really focus too heavily on posting about that but again I kind of subconsciously try and get the branding in if I can like to maybe a player walks in with like the pre-walk onto the field like maybe with some Nike's on I try and get the swish you know but yeah sometimes players will do I think Jaden Sancho at one point was having really good concept out for him it was like just gym content it was just really cool like hype videos of him in the gym preseason

Starting point is 00:10:48 but his videographer was getting that night branding in you know i suppose that there is specific things you need to get into the video of them it's the subtleness of it it's not like a bond film where it's like here is a very obvious probably yeah he's a brightening watch whatever they're called and and can you tell us a bit more about the actual process maybe like what is your day on a shoot so football is is varied. I was literally just in Spain last week, so we'll go for the person that day. So my flight was 5 to 6 in the morning. I landed in Malaga at 9. I was working with the England beach soccer team, so we had to wait for them to arrive. We all went together then to the,

Starting point is 00:11:30 I think it was actual Malaga's training ground. I believe it was actual Malaga Malaga, the La Liga Seconda Division team. We went to their beach soccer training facility, trained there for about two hours. So I've already kind of prepped my gear in this situation because I know I'm coming off on flight I don't want to be tired trying to figure out like the night before I'm kind of making sure my sound's working which is another story all my lenses are clean I get a lot of dust and I get a lot of sand obviously getting kicked up so I needed to make sure there was no stand and any of the lenses so all of that's prep the night before which is generally how I work anyways just making sure my gear's ready the day before and then I'm getting to

Starting point is 00:12:08 beach soccer training facility so I'm having a little bit of a walk around seeing what I'm working and we're seeing what the lights like. In this instance, seeing what the sand is like to move on. If it's dry or if it's wet, which is a brand new thing for me to have to play with. It was nice and dry. It was very hot. So that was like easy for moving around on. And then, yeah, just kind of, I spoke to George Jeremy, who's A, one of the England players, B, he's the CEO director.

Starting point is 00:12:33 He spends all the plates at Malaga City Football Club. And just kind of getting the gist with him, what he wanted to do for the day, how intense it was going to be. and then I kind of like to try and find out who my characters are going to be so I hadn't worked with this team before and I like to try and see who's going to be giving me that kind of funny content who's going to be like the more serious profile shots I want to get the more serious shots and just kind of trying to suss out what they're like so I kind of sit and listen to them when they're chatting and not like a creepy eavesdropper

Starting point is 00:13:00 but I try and get an idea of who's going to be giving me what kind of content and then they trained I shot quite a lot of B-roll did a quick interview with England captain Aaron and again checking all the gears getting put away and then clean and back in the bag ready for the next bit of filming. You're getting chucked on a coach and then, you know, half time you don't know what's happening because you just kind of got to go with it, but the camera's always got to be ready, always making sure everything's charged up and ready to go. For working with someone at Exeter, it's a much more kind of stable idea of what's happening. If it's like a Tuesday night game, you usually go up on the Tuesday and the day.

Starting point is 00:13:35 You're checking to the hotel. you might have been I mean this is in COVID anyway we're given our COVID forms that you had to declare going to the stadium to say you haven't had COVID certain points when we're allowed to test we were testing before we even left the house

Starting point is 00:13:49 but then you go to the ground to do all the checks the preface officer Craig Bratt would kind of go and do a bit of a walk around ourselves get an idea for what was going on he'd be up doing all the Twitter stuff and the social media stuff and just basically being the voice in the club while they're playing

Starting point is 00:14:04 and I kind of be having to look at what light I'm working with. Obviously in League 2 you get a very vast range of stadiums. When I was there, it was someone like Bolton, who is a Premier League standard stadium, amazingly lit, incredible. And then you might have someone like, no disrespect to Grimsby Town here, but you might have someone like Grimsby Town where it's a lot of, it's a much older stadium. And yeah, you're just kind of get in a feel like what the game's going to be like. And then personally, regardless of what kind of football I'm filming, I like to be in the final third area so I can get corners, I can get when game is kind of really getting intense.

Starting point is 00:14:39 When there spans in the stadium, you can kind of get an idea of what side to stand. You know, when it was empty, it was just like, right, I'm going to put left or right. Depending, obviously, again, if you were told where you had to be because it was very strict for football. So you might have to specifically be on the left or the right.

Starting point is 00:14:53 Again, that red and amber tape. And it's just being ready for the game. I mean, I understand football and how it's played, and I think I have a pretty good ball knowledge as they kind of used the phrase these days. I think I missed a goal once in, the whole season and the rest of the time I know when we're attacking

Starting point is 00:15:09 I know what's happening at Korn and that kind of thing so it's just been ready to get this really intense moments when they're going to come in super tight and you can get this really like cinematic kind of shot to them like the boots and stuff and then the game finishes sometimes I had to help out with post-fax interviews just literally

Starting point is 00:15:25 to help with the camera if we didn't have another assistant on board it's just always being with the camera until you're in the car ready to go home basically so sorry do you actually do interviews or do you record them as they do interviews with, let's say, television or something. So the club, usually, Exeter, for example, have very, very, very good social media output, very, very, very good. Scott Palfrey and Zandi Thornton and Craig Bratt, shout out to them because they really, really do put out a lot of very good content for the club, which is recognised.

Starting point is 00:15:55 You know, they've wanted to water it. And they do post-fetch interviews usually, so they'll get the gaffer out, whoever it is at the time. For me, it was Matt Taylor. And then if they've lost, they tend to get the captain out. If they were, it tends to be one of the goalscores or, you know, man of the match kind of thing. Sometimes, yeah, you rule, it's a lower division, but also it doesn't tend to have the coverage, like a Premier League match with where they do a lot of post-wet interviews. They'll sometimes have BBC Devon or someone there to speak to the players or the manager after the game. Yeah, that for me, that was kind of like a B-roll opportunity.

Starting point is 00:16:27 There's once or twice I've had to assist, but most of the time that's me just getting like good B-roll. I was external to their normal output. I was kind of making external content. And it's the same with Malaga, they didn't really do post-match interviews, but I was on hand of need-be, I suppose. It sounds like you need to be also quite athletic to keep chasing the ball,

Starting point is 00:16:48 trying to get specific angles, so how much tiring is it for you? Yeah, I mean, I would say I was in not a good shape day one of lockdown, and day one of lockdown, I just thought, you know what, I'm not going to my 20s, being unshirt. So, yeah, I'm very, very highly active. It definitely helps to be physically fit in both music and football

Starting point is 00:17:09 because you are moving a lot. A lot of the time you're grabbing your stuff, you might not have time to put stuff away. You might have just have cameras on you, you might have backup on you. You might be helping other people with gear, so you're carrying kit. A lot of the time of Malaga City, I'm helping, you know,

Starting point is 00:17:24 they also stream the game, so I'd be helping carry the actual scaffolding stuff, putting that in the, you know, you've got to be physically able to do it. There's no, I mean, there are people, who obviously everybody's different shapes and sizes, but for me, I was like, I need to be, like, able to carry heavy things. I need to go to move just, I need to go to perform better

Starting point is 00:17:43 because you're doing high performance sport, you need to be able to, like, move about. And I think, like, for the beach shock, and I need to be able to run on that sand, it needs to go to move. So, yeah, I think being a fairly good physical is super important, and it just looks better when you're turning out to sport and things and you're...

Starting point is 00:18:01 Some of these people are, like, absolute monsters, and you just think, oh, I've got to be a certain other way to be able to, like, trace them down the pitch. And once you create the content on a day or after the whole time that you are with them, do you then edit it and share to someone for feedback, or do you share it for feedback first and then edit it based on what they want, or what is this process like? I think my process is similar for this if it is in music in terms of, like, I have had in like grained in me as a music photographer that nobody wants the content three days later. It's a little bit different for football because they sometimes have like specifically planned days.

Starting point is 00:18:42 They want to put content out. But I like to be efficient with it. I like to have an idea of what I'm doing in my head in terms of getting it ready. So for football I kind of want it like within 48 hours like match day recap videos. If you play a match on a Saturday by Monday, they're already high. open up the Tuesday games. So within that gap, you want it, football video content you want within that kind of 48 hours.

Starting point is 00:19:05 There's no point in it being late because, like I said, they're gearing up the Tuesday game against Shepard Wednesday and they've just played Boughton on the Saturday. Nobody can. No, really for the next game now. And people want to see it. Like, you know, Exeter again, very good at putting out their three. They do something called a 360 video.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And Zandi will usually, if not him and Scott, Zandi will usually have that video out within like six hours of the game. six, seven, eight hours. I usually take slightly longer as my videos of different tempo and a different style, but, you know, people want to see the content. If you've lost,

Starting point is 00:19:39 like, you can be a bit like slucky with it, I think, because people are just a bit to be bad. Did it happen too? Yeah, the commentary would just be like, nobody cares. It'd be like, here's a look back at Saturday's game. It's like, no one cares. Or like, we don't want to watch it. I'm like, okay, I've spent hours editing this,

Starting point is 00:19:55 but I'm going to put it out into the world anyway. But yeah, the process is just kind of sometimes you have to start with the music I think as well if you've won a game you know it's going to be like bang, bam, bam, especially if it's been a high scoring game, you want something up tempo, you want to be able to match that pace.

Starting point is 00:20:10 So sometimes you've got to be quick on that in it. But I don't like work being, you know, there's nothing worse that when you hear like from publications, I'm waiting on this person to deliver this content or this, it's unprofessional. And time is money. I know it's a really sad, horrible,

Starting point is 00:20:25 classic phrase, but time is money and it needs to be out. screen in the world. So does it mean that once you finish, let's say after a match, you then go to the hotel and start editing the right away? Yes. So with EFL games for Exeter or EFOM matches, I think I'm right in saying that they can't post the goals until midnight. It's a rule basically. So I'll go through the game footage and get the goals for the media manager and the other content like Craig and Scott and I would send them to them so they could use them if not in the morning. so they could use those.

Starting point is 00:21:00 Post every morning, like, good morning, like the exo fan's called Grecians. So it would be like, happy Sunday Grecians, and it's like, they're the goals. Or for Malaga again, I like to do maybe like a basic edit. I like to just kind of know where the footage is going. I'm also just super impatient,

Starting point is 00:21:15 so I like to just go and edit straight away. You're like a dog with a bone, like, I really want to see the footage. And then you see one bit and you're like, okay, maybe I'll just do a full edit now. At least I want to see the footage. I'm even on my camera. I want to watch it.

Starting point is 00:21:27 I want to see it. And then you've, got like footballers you just want to see the footage anyway. And obviously you probably cannot say the specifics, but just to get an idea, since you're working with footballers and with the teams, is it paid well or if compared to like a regular job? Is it actually good money or is it a regular or what is it like?

Starting point is 00:21:46 So with Exeterum, my role there initially was voluntary and I did a few bits of paid work for them, which is kind of why I'm not really doing anything with them now is I have a day rate that I basically go with a day climb, pay my basic day rate, then, you know,

Starting point is 00:22:02 I'm not willing to drop it now. I have a lot of artist friends and stuff who say, you know, you have to know your worth and if people won't pay your basic day rate, then the job's not happening. So initially with them, it's voluntary,

Starting point is 00:22:13 but it's kind of expenses were covered. But now, when I work, for example, in Spain, everything is covered, my day ring is covered, travel, combination, food, everything. So it's quite well paid

Starting point is 00:22:26 when I work abroad, I would say. I'm not fully free. freelance yet, but I can earn in like three, four days of shooting football, what I'd earn a whole month of working in my part-time job as well. So it's quite a good money. If you can do it consistently, the money's very good, I would say. And I'm charging like a fairly standard rate. Like there's people who obviously work with high, high-end professionals who can probably make like a year's wage in a couple of videos. I know for a fact the turnover can be crazy. So if I get to that point, that'd be really nice to more. If I can live off the

Starting point is 00:22:59 in one video, I think it's within the realm of, you know, some people charge like wedding photography kind of thing. You see content creators and you just know, like, shoot you with a top-end professional footballer, you just know they're on good coin. You know for a fact they're in a nice hotel. I'm flying Ryanair just for context. They're everybody in the head of the world. We're not quite at the giant level yet, but you never know in a few years. I'm hopeful, hopeful, had some good conversations with some people so yeah that would be lovely and did you actually have some free time to enjoy in the city when you are in Spain or is it so tight and scheduled that you just do the work the first time i lived in amagnac for five weeks with them to the end of the season

Starting point is 00:23:42 that was insane because the lockdown had changed the lockdown in spain was very different to lockdown here you could go outside you could go to bars you could do anything as long as you were wearing a mask essentially and yeah the evenings sometimes you would get a text and it'd be like you'd be like you you're going to, so Aminiacar was based and you might get to text me like, oh, so you're going to Cadiz tomorrow, which is like four hours there, four hours back, and then you're like, oh okay, that's good. It's fun.

Starting point is 00:24:07 And it's all right. It was quite unexpected. Yeah, like, you had pre-warning one day that you were going to go to it. It's like you might be going to go to Barcelona in a few days' time. Then you're on a coach for 14 hours there and then you play in the game for next morning. But, you know, I'm not in any way complaining. It was

Starting point is 00:24:22 so much work, but it was so, so good because I love Spain as a country so I got to do a lot there. It's a little bit more chill now when I get flown in and out because I'm there for specific things. Last April I went to Florence, Armagnaca, Malaga, Amniaca. We went to Valencia and yeah,

Starting point is 00:24:40 we had a fair bit of free time in Valencia because they were there for about two, three days. It was a great, really, really good trip because I knew a few of the coaches and I knew the photographer floor, Florence. She's such a good photographer. She's really, really talented. and there were a few like English coaches plus the Spanish coaches

Starting point is 00:24:57 and we had a really, really great trip and then again this time I just went was a lot more relaxed with the beach soccer team so, you know, I know the town quite well so I had ambitions to go to the beach but Almaneka is in Granada so it was hot but cloudy and it was unfortunately not happening this time but yeah I had a fair bit of free time this time so it was really, really nice but it's just nice to be in Spain

Starting point is 00:25:19 it's a beautiful country, the culture is incredible the people are very friendly it's just nice to be you know they're working in general so I have no complaints any time I go there yeah and I guess quite a big football culture in Spain right yeah sure of course

Starting point is 00:25:33 you got to our favorite team in Spain favorite Spanish team as a kid it was Barcelona because I was obsessed with Messi I had all his like Adidas Messi collab stuff so I've grown up Barcelona but I think I don't know I just like the Spanish football vibe I went to Valencia and like I said and the stadium was

Starting point is 00:25:51 stunning. Like, Spanish stadiums are just, you can't compare them to the UK ones, you know? Modern or in what way? No, it was called, what's Valencia Stadium called? I can't remember what it's called, but we went there for a tour. It's this really old,

Starting point is 00:26:08 like, stunning, beautiful stadium, and we got to a tour around there, and I just thought, this is Spanish culture, you know? And they're not like, I've gone past so many UK stadiums, like, O'TRAFED, I've been to St. James's Park, obviously, which is my cathedral, obviously, it's Newcastle. fan but the Spanish stadiums are just there you know they don't go under floor level at all they're

Starting point is 00:26:27 just boom in the middle of the city and they just they're incredible it's these massive great structures and I love like architecture anyway and just casual interest and they're just beautiful stadiums and the culture is amazing and people just watch the games people always just kind of interested if there's game going on you see people interested in what's happening but yeah it's great football country just a quick one if we enjoy our podcast please give us a review on your favorite podcast app, subscribe or share it with your friends. For more information, visit the show notes. Thank you and back to the show.

Starting point is 00:27:00 I might have missed it, but why are you fan of Newcastle? So I'm born in Devon, but my mum is a Geordie. So all my mom's side are from Newcastle. So, yeah, very proud Newcastle support. You got bullied at school. I always just get picked on. You know, everyone had been born in Arts to Ball. Their dad was from Devon.

Starting point is 00:27:20 Their mom was from Devon. their granddad was from Devon and they'd all support like Man United because they were the best when I was younger and I would get ripped to support Newcastle so who is laughing who is laughing now it's me five laughing oh so that's fun it's really fun you're talking about the football and you're like oh well yeah I don't think I'm the Arsenal kind of part of the title and they're like who do you support Newcastle and I'm a real fan I've been there for it all and do you have a favorite player So you've got player I have a few that I really like

Starting point is 00:27:53 I mean for Newcastle I would go with Bruno Gomare's Joelinton Joelinton is a perfect example of someone who did not let a bad start defeat them and they have worked hard to become a top level athlete

Starting point is 00:28:07 and professional minuses strict driving charge and I just like him back I think he's I don't know he's just cool I just think it's like he's such a good footballer

Starting point is 00:28:18 I don't know I just think he's got this like flair. You know, Harland is incredible, and I think he's an incredible, credible footballer. There's just this player that Mbapé has, where it just looked effortless when he plays. And I think he needs to leave Paris Sajaman and really go and test himself at another club. He's young, though, so, you know, he's got a lot of work. Why do you think the current club is not enough or not a good one for him? Well, the French League is kind of considered being, I hate when people use the phrase Farmers League, because it's like they're high level athletes.

Starting point is 00:28:49 You know, they knock out the Champions League of athletes. You know, it's such a stupid phrase. But I think the standard that he is capable of is above what he's playing. And I think someone's so skillful and talented and capable of such good understanding of match of gameplay and tactics. I would like to see him challenged in another league.

Starting point is 00:29:12 Maybe not even the Premier League initially. Again, he was really highly rumoured to go to round Madrid and it was probably like that close to him going. I think his gameplay would suit it because he's fast and he's technical and Spanish football is heavily possession based so I think he would do well there but obviously eventually I would like to see him in the Premierty because it's considered the best league in the world. What club he went to I would be very interested to see just because I don't really know where he would suit my ball knowledge is all right but not to the standard but he would be perfect in this club because of it. I genuinely don't know what club he would fit in

Starting point is 00:29:46 especially in it was a few years down the line. Obviously, I'd let him to go to Newcastle because we'd afford him, but I would also say I wouldn't want him at Newcastle unless he suited Star-Nap play with a playing. So, like right now would he fit in Newcastle? I don't know, probably not.

Starting point is 00:30:01 Depends how much freedom he had down the wing. I'm getting very light into this. That was not the question. I like him Baffei. He has nice shoes. I'm going to go with him. Why not messy anymore? You said that he used to be your favorite one.

Starting point is 00:30:14 Why is not anymore? people use that phrase is Ronaldo your goat or is Messi Messi still for me fantastic footballer and is still very very good obviously just on the World Cup with Argentina did you support I mean obviously you support it probably England but then did you support Argentina I know this Commonwealth is really bad but I'm my favorite national team is the French team oh because of Zimbabur

Starting point is 00:30:38 yeah I think so I'm not really I don't know I just my issue with football for big nation games I don't like the culture in England when we play. I think it's still very, like, misogynistic, and I just don't like the culture of it. It feels very much like this is for white, straight men, and I don't like what it brings out in people. So I think that's what puts me off support.

Starting point is 00:31:00 I know it's sitting up to be able to support my national team because of it, but I still don't like the culture of it. Not saying that normal football doesn't have that attached to it, but I don't know. It's like people come out who aren't normally fans of football because England are playing, and as a result of it, it just gets, I hate seeing these themes of violence. It's just pathetic and I don't know.

Starting point is 00:31:19 I don't like to be amongst that, I think. I struggle to relate to that, really. Yeah, I understand. I went recently to watch a match. I've never been here to like any of the big matches. I went to Spurs. Okay, yeah, yeah. I wanted to see the beautiful stadium, which was beautiful because it's new

Starting point is 00:31:37 and also because Wilson was there. But I didn't expect that like some, will take it so seriously. It's maybe because I don't know much about it. I've never really been there. But like the number of police officers that were there, the people like the mess and everything,

Starting point is 00:31:55 it was a bit too much for me to be honest. Yeah, it does get quite like that. They still have, I can't remember what they're called, they're basically fans who are there to cause trouble, there to cause violence. And it's controlled better. I think the National League probably suffers really bad from it still because the police presence except that it's not to the like level in terms of like

Starting point is 00:32:19 maps of police officers at games or just that security and stuff i don't know this football hooligan thing is still so deeply rooted into british football culture not to say it's not in other countries here particularly it still has like the kind of bitter taste in your mouth which is why it's a refreshing seeing the women's football because it doesn't have that i don't really follow the women's football and that sounds really bad but it's nice to see that it's mostly people just really interested in the game. I think that's what puts a little people off football. I think a lot of women I know, for example, don't like football because they don't like

Starting point is 00:32:51 the culture of it. A lot of my other gay friends, they don't like the culture of the football. And it's still not inviting atmosphere, I think, still people still feel uncomfortable to go to matches and they still feel... Yeah, I understand and I agree. Because, for example, as someone is me who doesn't follow it as much as others, I just went there to enjoy the experience and see it for the first. time. I'm not saying that I don't want to go there again, but at the same time, because

Starting point is 00:33:18 of this, it's not something that I would really want to experience too often. And what was quite sad was to see even little kids there. You know, like listening to people swearing and all the mess and not want to say violence, but even some people behaving not really appropriately. Like, I wouldn't want to bring my kid there. I would want to my kid to watch the match, but not in this environment. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Again, I'll highlight the work of Exeter because, you know, I've seen them call out statements

Starting point is 00:33:49 where there's been homophobia or there's been racial abuse at players. And they're banned people. They're like, this is not the eagles that we want to kind of like evoke at the club. And they're a fan-run club, which is great because it means that they can kind of really tackle these issues. But that violent football culture is still very much there. And it's a working-class sport, you know, that's the point. is anyone can, from any background, can become a top level professional footballer.

Starting point is 00:34:15 You know, that's kind of what's so cool about the sport. You know, you get a lot of players who have come from very poor backgrounds through different ethnicities or races or, unfortunately, we're not getting there quite that quickly with sexualities, but it's meant to be a sport that anyone can become a top professional in, and it still feels very much like not accessible to everybody, which is so ironic because that's the point of it. it's a simple game where people kick a ball into a goal. Obviously, it's more technical than that,

Starting point is 00:34:42 but it should be accessible. You know, when I've been working with academies, I hear a lot of the American boys that they're referring around homophobic slurs like it's, you know, casual thing. And it's like, what are you doing? Do you even know the weight of what you're saying? And that's very disappointing. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:35:02 And the player, yeah, I agree. Especially when you're, you know, the statistic I believe is one in four people are gay. and it's like, I'm sat there listening to them use slurs and, like, thinking, what am I, what do I say? But, you know, any of their teammates could be a homosexual, and they're just, like, having to sit there, hear that, and try and force that behaviour out of themselves,

Starting point is 00:35:22 so they don't think it's, you know, I can't possibly be gay in this cult. And it's just disappointing on days, like, Rainbow LATES again, which is when they try and really push the LGBTIQ plus equality in the sport. They have to turn the comments off on the Premier League's official Instagram, or on their or clubs because you just get ridiculous levels of homophobia and it's just like just grow up man it's just it's not that deep one day one day when they're just trying to say it's okay for you to be gay and also play football or watch football and then people are just like don't read the instagram comment don't read the comments jesus you'll never go to a game ever again but saying that a lot of players like jordan henderson at liverpool makes a big thing of it and i think that's fantastic

Starting point is 00:36:02 they are making strides to make it better and obviously the no room for racism campaign again has been doing really good things and things are improving don't get me wrong I'm trying to make it sound like it's you know the 1920s again or something they are trying and it is proving but it's still not good there's a long long way to go so seeing players that have come out for example

Starting point is 00:36:22 that's incredible that's very very brave yeah there was recently I think a few weeks ago because I'm from the Czech Republic and there was one Czech player I don't know the name honestly but I think maybe he plays in Italy or somewhere and he can came across as a gay as well. And there were people who obviously supported him that he came out.

Starting point is 00:36:43 But at the same time, there were a lot of like, I don't know, either people or clubs or associations that didn't say anything about it. Like, not even noticed, but obviously everyone noticed. But they either didn't want to or were scared of the public or of the reaction. And as you said, you are in the very first century. So that should be so unexpected or such a big deal or they should be scared of. But as you said, the environment is what it is. So it's a difficult topic, yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:12 It's very difficult, especially when you get the classic, one of my favorite phrases, like, I agree with it. I just don't want to see it. And I'm just like, I agree with it. I don't see why we have to make a thing about it. They have to make a thing because there's like four openly gay men who are playing in God knows how many leagues across the world. And the reason they're making a thing about it is because you just have to read the comments

Starting point is 00:37:32 on Rainbow Laces Day. You know, it's like they're trying to make this more inclusive and more accessible to people and that's why. And because there's countries where people are being stoned in there. That's why. I was also quite surprised that it will probably sound like that I'm not educated enough about this topic. But I didn't see such a big deal because I thought that there are more people like that and it's known. But as you said, there are only four.

Starting point is 00:37:56 So I was like, oh, I did know that. I thought that it's kind of more welcoming and different culture. But that's what's surprised me to. I think up the top of my head I can think of three players. I know there's a player in Australia, there's a player in the United Kingdom who plays in Blackpool, there's a player from the Czech Republic,

Starting point is 00:38:14 and then I think there's a few Americans, but they might not be technically classed as pro standard, but yeah, I think it was a big news story when he came out last year. And it wasn't like, I'm Gay, give me attention. It was, I'm Gay, look, you can also play football. That was what I got from it, and I thought that was nice,

Starting point is 00:38:31 and especially at his age as well. I can't record his name at the minute, which is terrible. But he was like 17 or something, and you came out. I'm like, that's so brave. You're literally just on the cost of a career, and you've decided to come out, and that's very brave,

Starting point is 00:38:42 and it's very admirable. But there's been a gayer. I said there was some working in football, and we're doing all right. Getting paid, so I can't complain. I just quickly Googled so that I wasn't saying something that is not true. And the Czech player is called Jakubiancto, and he plays for Parta Prague, but he's on loan for Guita.

Starting point is 00:39:01 Oh, actually, in Madrid, probably. Yeah. So I just wanted to double check so that I wasn't saying something that wasn't. No, you would have to have to have. on it. I definitely remember the news article, but yeah, that's, again, amazing. So that's a top, top flight professional as well. So. And coming back to your work, I was wondering, are there any fails from your work that you can or you'll share with us?

Starting point is 00:39:20 Fails, football, specifically last week. I'll record an interview. I check all my stuff. I check all my gear. I'm listening to the clips after the game. Like, what is that high pitch? Like, sound. I was like, what is that? And my road mic. my trusty road mic, which I've had since I was at uni, decided it wanted to create a high-pitched screech sound. So I repaired the audio really quickly in Premiere Pro. It wasn't awful, but it sounded like it was recorded on Skype back to the 7. So it had that like, er-r-r-r-sound.

Starting point is 00:39:51 So luckily the music I had on the video, like I didn't have to go really deep into repairing the audio because the music on the video kind of removed the weird sound at the same time, and it worked. So I was like, okay, I'll risk it and record the other interviews on the music. the mic. They weren't as bad, the other ones. I am now going to have to invest in new my thing. So, Road, if anyone from Road, by any chances listening to this, please send me a new mic from my DSL. That would be really wonderful.

Starting point is 00:40:20 Thank you, like the regular person who is watching the work you did with this recording notice that it wasn't okay or it's just you because you know? I think it was just me because anyone that's seen it has really enjoyed it. They are now everyone's going to go and listen to the videos. I just didn't be like, oh, I could definitely hear that where the audio was heard. No, I think it's fine. I'm going to go with it. It was fine.

Starting point is 00:40:42 They were very, very happy with the content. So we're just going to say it was fine. It was actually just intentional. It was character building. And I wonder how does it work with you finding job? Do you apply for it? Does someone get to you or do you have like a manager or what is it like? I wish I had a manager.

Starting point is 00:41:00 I wish I had an agent. That would be really good. One day. Yeah, one day. That would be less. To football, it is at the moment, like, I just get a message for a run. Georgia, for a man, I go and he's like, these dates, you free, can you come to this part of Spain? And that's great.

Starting point is 00:41:14 He's like, how much is going to cost? Yes, that's fine. Fire you're out. Sometimes you get a few DMs on Instagram. Instagram obviously is, like, one of the best tools you can use, especially you can do it properly. I think I do it okay, Instagram, but I could probably, I don't know. I'm not massively keen on having my mug all over Instagram, so I kind of just keep it to my work. but some people really utilize that social reader well.

Starting point is 00:41:38 And then music is really varied. Music is really, really varied. Again, you might get people reach out to you. You're reaching out to bands. A lot of the time it's spending days on end, just emailing management, being like, do you need a tall photographer? And then you'll get no emails back after something like 20.

Starting point is 00:41:54 Yeah, it's quite a slog, really. I'm in that really weird middle stage where I will get work. And then I'm like, okay, well, I've had nothing this month, so that's fun. It's just like a really weird in-between stage at the moment. moment. Is it also sometimes that maybe you have too many and do you need to pick between? Yeah, sometimes I have actually picked doing work to free in terms of like when I want to shoot an artist for a publication, for example, and I've sometimes picked that over a paid job for a day because if it's someone I really, really want to photograph, like really want to pick.

Starting point is 00:42:29 When I strip everything away, I like to think that I'm an artist and to me the art is the most important thing. For football it feels more like a job, but for music it feels like art for me. And the opportunity is there to shoot someone like, you know, that's a bucket list. You know, artist, I would take the art over the money every single time. People probably listen to this like, oh, course you do. But like, no, seriously, I would take the art over the money every time. Because why else would I do this if it wasn't the creative people? I'm in that position. I'm okay. I can do that. But sometimes the priority has to be what's the fulfillment here? What am I getting from this? And if it's like I get to shoot my

Starting point is 00:43:09 favorite artist over, I don't know, stand in a rainy stadium, then I'm probably going to pick the artist. For some people, they're probably just like, why are you doing? But yeah, I'd like to think I'm a really cool artist. So with the art, is it again shooting for promotion, like social media or is it music videos? So for music photography, I do a little bit of music in geography. I consider myself more of a music photographer. Again, like I said, I can shoot video like I do with football, but music in photography. That is really a vast landscape that I work in. Sometimes festivals reach out for a tune and shoot for a festival for their social media, for their websites, for their advertising, all of that. Sometimes it's an artist.

Starting point is 00:43:50 Sometimes I shoot regularly for publications for free to gain portfolio, to gain networking opportunities. And then that'll be for their website. It's, such a vast, like, I've shot for a band called In Glorious, who are currently on hiatus, and they obviously paid for me to come and shoot them stuff. And my photo was on the back of a vinyl, which is insane in HMB. That's a crazy thing to feel, you know, that's really... So the work is very, very depending on what it's. But again, a lot of the time, it's social media really rules the roots in terms of content

Starting point is 00:44:22 creation, I think. And, yeah, it's really varied, really, really varied. Yeah. Can you try to compare? because before you said the process differs while shooting for football and shooting for artists. Can you compare it a bit?

Starting point is 00:44:36 So say I do a concert, I like to have the photos out before I even go to sleep. Specifically, I'm shooting for free. So if I'm doing it for a publication and I'm doing kind of like content creation, if I'm reviewing it, I literally like two days ago, I got to shoot Michael Buebla.

Starting point is 00:44:50 So that was great. That was front of house, which means you don't shoot for the photo pit. So I was hella stressed because my biggest lens is 200 mil, didn't have time to write another one, but I'm very, very pleased with what I did get. But for that, I got two tickets, press tickets. I'm obviously got my pass.

Starting point is 00:45:05 So I got to take a plus one, so I got to take my auntie, which was lovely, because she took me to his show when I was 16, so I'm 26 this year, so she took me when I was 16 for my 16. So it was really nice to get to take her, and she got to watch the show while I worked, and then reviewed it. But a process for that, like, if the opportunity to edit is, like, if I'm in a car, like, for example, I'll be editing, when I get back from shooting, a show, I end it straight away, because if it's a free, if you've been paid by the artist or the festival, whatever, no one wants the photos two days later. If you've shot a show, people

Starting point is 00:45:37 need to see the images immediately. There is no point posting photos from a show five days later. If you're doing something maybe like two weeks later and you're just like throwing it back to when I shot X, Y, Z. For you, that's fine. But for the artist, for the band, people need to see the show. It's just the nature of it. People want to see the show they're at. They want to share it on social media. That can drive ticket sales to another. show like it's important so when I work with a band called Pat and Purscher who I absolutely adore they are lovely lovely boys and they need to be signed because they are phenomenally talented anyone listen to this please check out Pat and

Starting point is 00:46:10 Pressure their album comes out of this year they are fantastic but those boys like I like to get the photos out for them they sometimes have a little bit of a delay in posting because Sundays tend to not do very well with Instagram like if you shoot show show on Saturday night Sundays just people just aren't on social as much the morning so they kind of delay normally that but if it's a week they show like I want to make sure those guys have a photo straight away it helps them it helps drive traffic at their social media it just all of this stuff's important you know so for my process will be after a show I put my photos straight on my hard drive and get them straight into

Starting point is 00:46:44 lightroom I kind of go and have a look at what is going to be really usable disregard the ones that aren't going to be good and then at the minute I'm working with a preset that I developed that I really like the colour grade of. It really works well for live music. Really helps, I think, pop light. And I really like just the colours, everything in it. So I kind of chucked that on. Maybe I play around with it.

Starting point is 00:47:06 Sometimes it doesn't work. You know, sometimes the lighting designer wants you to go through a personal hell and has shot. That hand is giving you purple lighting for a show. So I sit there tearing my hair out trying to fix the lighting for purple because it's so hard to try to correct thermal ones. But I have finally made myself a preset

Starting point is 00:47:23 that I think works for that. But yeah, it's going through, getting rid of the rubbish, and then it's an artist straight away. And then they're like, whoa, that was quick. And I'm like, yeah. That's how I work. How I work? Hi, I'm into the tour. Especially when you shoot someone for free, like, do, bleal, like, something like that.

Starting point is 00:47:39 You want to get the pictures out first. My idea is that the management will see them before they see other photographers. And then if they haven't got a photographer, you know, or the artists might retweet it before other people, and that's good exposure and it's good. So you got to pick your battles, I think, in terms of. of free work and stuff. So if you're going to take free work, you need to be on it and efficient with the distribution of your content.

Starting point is 00:48:00 You need people to see it. Because otherwise, what was the point? No, I agree. And are there some other highlights to share as you've worked for this artist? Are there any other? Yeah, I'm sure. So, like, my favourite artist,

Starting point is 00:48:14 technically just one guy, but I love Panic at the Nisco. Panic in my favorite band. I was having a bit of a like, I'm not getting any work, like nothing's come through recently. I applied through my publication, bring the noise, shout out to Nicola,

Starting point is 00:48:28 being an absolute G, and getting this through for me. And I got, I was in Liddles with my girlfriend. I'd met her from work, and I was having one of my like, oh, I'm not getting any work, I'm just going to give her up, it's not happening for me. And I got the email come through. She was sending me to text for a WhatsApp. She's like, check your email, check your email, check your email.

Starting point is 00:48:44 And I got confirmed for panic at the disco in Birmingham and like two days later. And I was like, don't cry in the middle aisle of Liddle. This is a high point if you're not on no point very much like had you know that the watered eye emoji that was like that was me in the middle and she's just trying like like this is amazing but like come on we need to get out of little and i got come from her panic and i got to go to birmingham and i was reviewing the show as well for the publication so one of my best friends jack who i have shot a couple festivals we did

Starting point is 00:49:12 boardmasters together last year which was a whole highlight in itself was unreal i stayed with him and he actually took me to the show because the trains are like not happening he's like i'm getting you to brand new I'm getting you to read anyway. And he got to watch the show and it was just like a dream show to shoot A, because I love Fletcher, who was in his support. She's phenomenal. Love her.

Starting point is 00:49:33 One of my favorite artists right now, probably my album of the year last year. So that was brilliant anyway. And then, yeah, I got to shoot Tannick. And initially I was like, oh my God, what's happening? And I'm like, oh, wait, I need to shoot. I need to concentrate.

Starting point is 00:49:45 And yeah, I got some really, really great images that I was super, super proud of. Yeah, it was kind of insane. It wasn't until I'd taken my camera put it back with security and gone and sat with Jack to review, they'd go and sit in the press bit or just where our seats were from the press tickets.

Starting point is 00:50:00 I'm just there like, what even just happened right now? Like, it was a crazy poor circle moment for me because I literally wouldn't have gone into music photography if I hadn't been for that band and my favourite photographer Jake Chans, his work really kind of inspired me initially. I was like, hold on, you can do this as a job. You can go in tour and take photos of artists

Starting point is 00:50:20 and do this. his content creation for the band that really kind of spurred me to want to do it so it was just like a really nice full circle moment to just be like okay you're on the right track I think getting the past and getting that show was like you're on the right path here

Starting point is 00:50:34 even when it's tough you're in the right place and doing the right thing and then to get Michael Boubley over the day who was like my OG was crazy I was really the same I haven't really processed that yet so do you still have like a dream one or someone lined up that you'd want to work for I walked in the door the other day and I said to my girlfriend

Starting point is 00:50:53 well we've peaked now there's nothing else to do now no of course my goal is to tour I really want to tour with artists so if anyone listening to this there's anyone that needs to talk photographer I am your gal I'm very easily fed with prayer and mande

Starting point is 00:51:06 that's all I need to get me going but I want a tour and obviously I'd love to tour with Michael Buebla I think I initially started off doing Broadway and West End stuff as if any of my lectures are listening to this don't worry the demon is dead I don't do much West End stuff now, if any.

Starting point is 00:51:23 So I think I could really capture him well, just everything about his showmanship. I think I could really work with well. So I would love to tour with Buebla that actually work for him and his management. I just really enjoy just any genre shooting. I just love music photography. I love everything about it. I love the fact that I can't sleep for hours after

Starting point is 00:51:44 because I get the same adrenaline rush as artists probably do because it's just so fast-paced. and so intense and then it's calm and you're still kind of coming off that buzz. Yeah, I absolutely love it and I just like photograph I knew really. I just really enjoy it. Yeah, it's amazing to hear that you found your passion and you really enjoyed it. Before we finish, do you want to promote yourself to share any links where people can follow you? Yeah, that'll be amazing.

Starting point is 00:52:11 Obviously, you can check out my current work, which I always chuck up on the Instagram. My Instagram handle is C underscore Ebsworthy, so it's my surname. So C underscore Efsverly. And then my website is www.com. I work for the dot com because it means I'm worldwide because you're never missed impossible. But yeah, I use Twitter but I don't really get as much.

Starting point is 00:52:31 Again, traffic on there, but is what it is. Instagram tends to be the best platform. So please make sure you check that out. But yeah, I'm just around. I'm always ready to go. My bag's always ready. And yeah, if anyone's looking for the tool work, concert work, football, obviously,

Starting point is 00:52:46 just anything in that field. Pun aside. I will add links to the show notes. Thank you. So thank you, Caitlin, for joining us today. It was a pleasure, and I will be happy to do the second part in the future. Thank you so much for having me, Thomas. I think what you're doing is really cool.

Starting point is 00:53:02 And first-ever podcast, you made it super chill for me to chat to you. But yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Produced Bye. Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast at, leave a review or send us your feedback. For more information about the host, links from the episode, and ways to connect with us, visit the show notes. If you know someone who would be an ideal guest for our podcast, please get in touch.

Starting point is 00:53:28 Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - #22 - Caitlyn Ebsworthy: Passion Behind The Art Of Shooting Music and Football

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