Produced By - #28 - Íris Santos and Connor McCoy: Artistic Couple Working Towards Greater Visions

Starting point is 00:00:03 Iris Santos and Konor McCoy are a couple of London-based 3D artists working in different industries, but both contributing towards something bigger. Originally from Portugal, Yaris is a 3D artist with experiencing graphic design, games industry and freelance 3D work for NFT projects. Currently employed in the automotive industry at Bave, bringing autonomous driving to a new level, she is working in a simulator, creating architectural props, building procedural world, procedural words and diving into program. Despite having a passion for art, she also likes to experiment with various art mediums and 3D software. The recent focus has been on honing

Starting point is 00:00:44 her programming and whittany skills in order to develop tools and streamline the workflow for her team and herself. Born in the UK, Connor McCoy is a lead 3D artist at first light games working on characters, props and environments. When he was young, his older sister inspired him to become a an artist. His goals were then proper to new highs when he discovered the world of video games, comic books and the heroes who live there. Along with Iris, Conor also explored the realm of NFTs as an artist. Even so, his most recent work is still connected to it as the game being developed by First Light games promises to serve as a link between the Web 2 and Web 3 communities. Listen to this episode to

Starting point is 00:01:27 hear 3D artists authentic experience working with NFTs, be inspired part where the exciting visions they are both a part of and find out more about the 3D artie. Enjoy it. Hello guys, thank you for joining us today and to welcome to the show. Thanks you for having us. Clush to read it. Can you please introduce yourself? My name is Iris. I am, well, I'm a Portuguese citizen and I came to London to do my degree

Starting point is 00:02:00 in Gaines and at Middle-sex University and then, Then, yeah, just stayed to work in the industry. Had a few jobs remotely. I finished university. My last year was during COVID, actually, so it was a bit rough at the time. But then afterwards, I managed to join the industry with Connor. He was working in a game company, and he sort of recruited me in. And, yeah, and then he just went up from there, really.

Starting point is 00:02:27 Are you currently working in games? I am currently working in autonomous driving. company so they have like this simulator and I'm doing it's sort of a game engine if you will but I'm working in a simulator as a 3D generalist that sounds excited we'll find out more later what about you Colin yes my name is Connor on thanks get to having me on the show I'm London and Britain born and raised they hear my whole life and as I was mentioned and most recently I took my degree in 3D animation in games interesting that where me and Iris met. I had some experience in the world of games as a freelancer before going to

Starting point is 00:03:11 university. And actually, my sister story was a games recruiter at the time, encouraging me to go and do my degree in games just because it'd be like an extra tool to help sift me out from the competition. So going through there, doing a bunch of commissions here and there, doing some amazing projects with some brilliant people in Middlesex, I eventually managed to break out and jump into a a games company pretty much straight away, in which we worked on some virtual reality games. And I was fortunate up to be, went to a lead position quite early on because of my background experience. And then from there, I hopped around between several different companies until I entered a company that we was making like a cool PC platform type game in which I've

Starting point is 00:03:56 brought Iris in. And then from there, I've gone off, what's in a few other studios. And now at the another. I'm a lead 3D artist in the epic first light games in which we're pushing the boundaries of like web three integration into video games at this moment of mobile games. As you said, we'll talk more about that later on. But yes. Well, it sounds exciting as well. Can we maybe start with your backgrounds? If we start with Iris, why did you decide to go to London or to the UK? So I've always had a passion for potentially losing abroad. I never thought about working. I've always wanted to be a vet, so that's where it starts.

Starting point is 00:04:37 I wanted to be a vet, and I told my mom at the age of 12 that I wanted to be a vet and go to Australia because I wanted to treat Iguala's and snakes. And I was absolutely terrified. So that idea then got out of my mind because I'm a bit squimmish, so I cannot do with blood and biology and things like that. But I've always had a passion. for games and more than games, movies like Pixar movies and Disney movies. And one day, I just, I was watching one and I just thought, you know, how do they make this?

Starting point is 00:05:11 Because this is magical, right? It's amazing. And that thought never crossed my mind. So then I started diving into the possibilities of 3D. And I did some 3D modeling and a little bit of programming in high school on my last year. And I was really keen on it. So then I start researching the opportunities of following that as a Korean path in Portugal. And unfortunately, Portugal is a bit outdated in the art industry, both for education and industry for working.

Starting point is 00:05:46 So then I started looking abroad and I looked at countries like Canada, but it was a bit too far for my first time going abroad. I also looked at France and Denmark, and then I ended up settling in the UK just because I was lucky enough to come for Brexit. And I went to Newdlesex University. I got my unconditional offer. I was very happy. Yeah, but I've always been keen on arts in general. So my high school was science, but I decided to do arts as a hobby and fill my portfolio to then go to university because you do need to apply with a portfolio. And so yeah, anything to do with art, fine art, 3D modeling.

Starting point is 00:06:31 I tried my first time making a donut in Blender and it ended up being a walnut. That was absolutely successful. I failed successfully, technically. Yeah, and then I went to Middlesex. Surrey's, and you were learning just by yourself in your free time? Yes, yes. I learned by myself 3D, yes, fine art. I would have tutoring outside of school, but I've always been keen on all sorts of arts and stuff.

Starting point is 00:06:56 I did that cosplay as well, back in the day, really fun stuff. No, it sounds like a great example that even someone without a background in this area, you can learn it by yourself and see where you got, so you're done it. All you need is the world to jump in and, you know, if you're passionate about it and if you want to do something, you can dream it, you can do it. Yeah, that is true. So can we talk about Connor? How was your journey in the beginning?

Starting point is 00:07:26 My journey has been a bit of a meander. Ever since a young age, I've always been a rapture by the world of arts, purely because I really looked up to my sister. And I always wanted to kind of hang out of her and annoy her in some kind of way. But whenever I would go to interact with her, I would always see her doodling in her sketchbook. So I was like, what, what is she doing? Why is she always looking at this paper? And then I realized that she was drawing, like, really well. And then she was like, instead of being annoying and throwing rubber bands,

Starting point is 00:07:57 well, like that's having stuff from you watch. You sit down next and you can jump in as well. I was like, okay. So then ever since then, I kind of like developed this passion for creating, whether it be traditional arts, had painting and so on. And since then, I kind of always took it with me. However, I never really imagined it as a career for myself, because I grew up in a household where they were like,

Starting point is 00:08:20 are they were always pushing me to be the best version of myself. However, the traditional jobs that were being spoken about my household, like, Dr. Logical engineer, there's my mom is a mental health practitioner. My dad's an electric engineer. So all of those jobs are kind of being struck around my household. So I was like, okay, I had a massive passion for that stuff as well. Of course, being grown up and being indoctrinated into it. So I wanted to take those studies as far as I possibly could.

Starting point is 00:08:53 So I did biology courses and physics, chemistry, all the way through my secondary school and primary school into college. But art stories was like the thing that was calling me in the background. But I kind of entertained it. I drew all the time every day whenever I had a signal away from my studies. But I never really imagined it being the thing that I did. So I kept going with my sciences and everything. And then I got to the point where I was at a position of being really good at physics.

Starting point is 00:09:26 Well, I say, I'm sure it's better. But they got a scholarship to Cambridge University to study quantum physics. Oh, that. I was like, you know what? Let's do it. Let's jump in. So I went in and did that the first month. And then I was like, you know what?

Starting point is 00:09:42 This isn't for me. I know this is like a dream position for a lot of people. but this isn't where I want to be in my life. And I know this is such a wonderful opportunity to have for a cross to me, but it wasn't what called me. And it was always art because from a young age, of course, doing all the drawing, playing all of the video games that I was, Halo, Mass Effect, Cool to Do you,

Starting point is 00:10:04 all of these various open-world RPGs. I knew my passion was to be arts. So I dropped out of Cambridge and started doing some short summer courses in various arts and so on to just increase my repertoire because a lot of my work was very much traditional, sculpting, acrylic, acrylic, antique, ink, work, comic book work. But in terms of digital work, I hadn't really had much of the footprint. So because of my knowledge of anatomy and everything that I've been studying,

Starting point is 00:10:35 both from my medical knowledge and through my art studies, I was able to shift into the world of 3D, precisely in terms of modeling characters. and started showing my sister and showing everybody around. They were like, oh, you've got quiet enough for this. Maybe you should be doing this professionally. So I was like, okay, I'll give it a go.

Starting point is 00:10:53 So I started going on five while going with D, like a bunch of these small platforms where I would do various commissions. And then my sister, being a games recruiter, was that, you know what, Colin if you want to take this to the next level, go to university, jump in, learn as much as you can about the industry, and then see where that takes to you.

Starting point is 00:11:13 And from then, the rest was history. It jumped into uni, and then, as everything I mentioned previously, I'm going into the world of games afterwards. It's been quite a while, right? Yeah. You know, I was going to say that I didn't realize that thanks to your background and your knowledge in anatomy, that's actually very beneficial when it comes to modeling characters and stuff.

Starting point is 00:11:36 So you wouldn't guess it, but it's so helpful, yeah. You always draw inspiration for the things you never respect. It's like whenever people say to read books or to travel the world, you're like, why would I do that? I can learn everything via the computer screen. And you never know when it might be helpful in the future. Exactly. It's good to state culture at the end of the day. Regardless of what you do, it's good to just push for yourself.

Starting point is 00:12:01 Yeah, I agree. And even like explore new and different areas to broaden your perspective. So coming back to university, Iris, can you say how did you enjoy your time at uni? Orera, how did you find it? It was very different. I was very out of my comfort zone. I had never been to London in my life. So it was my first time.

Starting point is 00:12:24 I basically got dropped by my parents, and two weeks later, I had university starting. And I can say that it was a great experience throughout. I had good people guiding me. I made good friends, both, you know, Portuguese, which is always good because you get it taste from me. home, but also from different backgrounds. And you get to, you know, you get to meet people with different backgrounds. And that's the thing that I was most amazed about. You get to meet people with different

Starting point is 00:12:53 backgrounds, different ways of life. And that helps you grow in a way. But also, university was not just university for me, because I had to work to pay for my bills. And at the end, just before COVID I had like three jobs at the same time as I was doing university and it's not impossible. Yes, you do have to, you know, lose a bit of your social life, but there's all the things that you gain, so that's important. But university was in the first year, it was very new. Everything, all the projects, the teachers, you know, there was a lot to it. And I did some sports.

Starting point is 00:13:32 It's the whole university lives. You go, you party, you have fun, but you also have the assignments and, you know, I'm a lot of, and your new friends and you by yourself so you don't have your family really like being on top of you for everything which is kind of really but freedom. Freedom. Exactly. It's nice.

Starting point is 00:13:49 Would you say it met your expectations or did you expect something different? The first year did because they pushed a lot for us and then the second year came and it already felt from the beginning that things were not keeping up as much. I mean, from the first, the course perspective, I've always tried to push myself and I was fortunate to have a group of

Starting point is 00:14:13 colleagues that all did the same. We pushed for each other and, you know, try to reach above and beyond of what we could do with the skills that we had. And then halfway through our second year, COVID hit. And then, unfortunately, from that point, it was all the way down. Because I had to study from home. We had to have classes from home. And it was in session. not the same experience, especially because we can be with our class mates, and that made the big difference in university. It's the human element, but also because everything was very new, this way of, you know, having classes online, submitting assignments in this way, like, especially theoretical assignments. I remember doing my dissertation, and he was very

Starting point is 00:15:05 odds to do it online because, well, you could cheat a lot, so that was not going to be bad. But it was really strange and also the teachers did not organize a lot or prepare a lot for this. Nobody was prepared really, but in the last year it really didn't meet the expectations. And then I left university with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. But that didn't stop me from pushing forwards and continuing to do what I enjoyed doing, which was 3D. And it would getting a job in a games company. Yeah, this is great. I mean, looking back at the situation that happened and no one knew what was going on,

Starting point is 00:15:44 it was really hard, but glad to hear that you still appreciate your dream and you ended up where we are now. 100%. Thank you. And what about you, Connor? So my university experience was interesting, to say the least. I always had the philosophy of being the heart of his work through the room ever since, like, my school days. just because I am quite a competitive person. Unfortunately, my friends at the time were also very competitive in an academic way.

Starting point is 00:16:13 So my friend would be like, I got a bee. And I'm like, what? You got a beat? I'm going to get hate. To know what you've got to work and that kind of the ethos period with me in my entire life. So when I went into university, it was very much the same. That being the case, I also have the philosophy of work hard, play harder. I would be the type of guy who is in my class, my lectures would be maybe two hours long.

Starting point is 00:16:38 And then I would be in the studio until like 9 p.m. working on my various projects, getting everything done until the guys are like, listen, we're closing the building. You need to get out of it. And then on the very next day, very much like Iris, I was working throughout my university life. There's all these maintenance loans and everything. They do help, but they're not going to be the thing that really sustains you throughout. So I worked as a bartender in the evenings. So I would work during the day in my class, get everything done all of my 3D models.

Starting point is 00:17:10 Then in the evening, go and working this far called the All Bar One and doing cocktails, those type of stuff, doing all the mixology things, throwing a cocktail shafers around. It was really cool. And I met some fantastic people. But apart from the work in that sense, there was also parties and everything with my colleagues. So what I would do is like we would go out, drink, we would socialize, all these type of people. And because it's the type of environment that you're in. That's always what you expect when you go to university because I grew up watching a lot of American TV or the house.

Starting point is 00:17:43 I'm like, whenever they would be like, yeah, let's go to college. I'm like, you're going to the dormitory lives, everything, RCs, like the fraternity is and everything. You know what there's not only that. So it's really underwhelmed. I can only agree with you. I only wanted to have that experience of like going like, doing all the sports, being in the track club, doing all the like challenges and everything. But it wasn't as a trap.

Starting point is 00:18:12 It wasn't trapped. However, that being the case, I did want to make the most of it. It wasn't so. Medicine fantastic people, unfortunately most of which I don't really communicate with us much nowadays, but at the time they were like really great people. we would bounce off the job of both intellectually and socially, go to these different events. And I was fortunate enough that COVID only really hit in the last half of my final year.

Starting point is 00:18:39 And I, because I was in the year above Iris. So I was doing all of my projects, learning all these new skills, like motion capture, using these giant wetsuits, getting into these green sleep rooms and doing all of that type of stuff. And learning all of these amazing new skills that would eventually be, the foundation of what I would later have as a job. However, all of this wasn't really provided by the university. So a loss of this, I noticed, like, when I was speaking to other people

Starting point is 00:19:09 and other courses, they're like, oh, I mean, every single day, we have lectures all the way up from morning until midday. My class was not right. That's true. We had lectures for our subjects, maybe two, three times a week, and they'd be like maybe an hour or an hour and a half wrong. There was one particular facilitator in our university who really empowered us as a facilitator because he wasn't really a lecturer. He was one of the 3D technicians. Now, lecturers did a fantastic job, but this particular 3D technician really wide up of and beyond to empower all the students. So, but that being the case only for two to three hours a day, learning to skill like 3D VFX in the world of games is not enough.

Starting point is 00:19:55 So that is why myself and my peers and that no Iris is the same, we're working in the studio. As soon as the lectures are finished all the way up until they'll kick us out just so that we could learn and empower ourselves with these skills. Because one of those things that nobody's going to give this stuff to you, you're paying all of this money. 30,000 pounds is not a small fee. So when you see people going to university only for the parties and everything, you can understand it because, of course, I had the same mindset. that. But this is going to be a lump sum of money that you guys be paying off for a long time. So you really want to get your money's worth. And that's what I did. I thought I could lock my money's worth in terms of people, relations that I built, connections that I can utilize in the future and skills

Starting point is 00:20:39 that were empowered me. Hopefully, by the rest of my life, I don't know now. This is this whole AI. That's how my interest. No, I agree with you because obviously you want to enjoy your time there, but if you consider how much money you pay for it, I guess you want to finish the uni with some knowledge and actually take advantage of that. And I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but did you actually study the same course? Yeah, we were the same course.

Starting point is 00:21:07 Oh, okay, yeah, that makes up. Yeah, when I was in the year above and we, yeah, we just met because we do cross projects between years as well, so that was something quite cool actually at the time. And yeah, and we just did some projects together and then we ended up working together and doing everything together. My class was particularly loud because we shared a studio. There was two studio rooms between the free animation games and game design.

Starting point is 00:21:38 And then VFX had like their own little area as well. But I would be in there all the time with my friends, making them all the noise, getting all the back, I having a good time as well as doing my work. And then I can show Iris and the rest of her class were like, Oh my God, he starts all the time. It's them again. Exactly. But we were all very social creatures.

Starting point is 00:22:00 So we had reached out to me to the second years and the first years. One thing that I like to do as well is I don't want to be the type of person to hoard all the information for myself. If I have it, I believe everybody should be able to share in the same wealth of information. So I would try to work with the second years, the first years to empower them and facilitate. And I tried that once in the Irish. and then she told me to get north. I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then we kind of that whole kind of...

Starting point is 00:22:27 I kind of built for me in chapter that's all future dynamic, which eventually changed and grew into something, which I'm very happy. And we ended up in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, what were your final projects in the third year? Mine was not a project that I'm proud of.

Starting point is 00:22:45 I'm going to say that. Was it still because of the COVID? I think so. I think it changed the expectations in the world to do it. But it was a project with Unreal Engine. And we had to do sort of, but it was like a cinematic for a game. And it was two of us. So it was me and another colleague.

Starting point is 00:23:09 And he was mostly doing, he had the idea, he was a visionary. And the person that was doing the visuals, the concept art. So I was doing most of the 3D. and the energy work. And in the end, it was good. We learned a lot. And I think in a lot of these projects, what matters really is the final result can be fantastic.

Starting point is 00:23:32 But if it's not, you still need to think about the process and how much you've learned from it. And although it's not a project that I'm particularly proud of it, the idea was nice. The project was quite fun, you know. It'd occupy my mind during Kobe because I had nothing else to do. Yeah, and I formed the following my skills, which is the best thing.

Starting point is 00:23:50 What's the reason that you're not proud of it? I'm not proud of it. I guess because when I look back at it, there's a lot of things that I could have done better. But also, I felt like throughout the entire project, I was doing most of it. And I was not very happy about doing most of it, especially the three-ne side of things.

Starting point is 00:24:12 And halfway through the project, I sort of wished I had gone for something with somebody else or did it myself. But it was the case. I mean, you know, in the end, it was a fun project. I enjoyed it. It was like a sci-fi, sort of underground city. It sounds cool, but... Yeah, it does. And were you happy with the result? Um, the result is still on my art station, actually.

Starting point is 00:24:38 Oh, so we can have a look at it, but in a way, it looks fairly decent, because on my art station, though it needs to be updated. So the listeners can have a look later. Yes, yes. Well, if you want. Yeah, I mean, we had the best grade and everything. I guess it was Kobe and our lectures at the time were giving everybody sort of great discounts, a huge great discount. Because not all of us had access to the facilities. Because to be a 3D artist or working the effects, you certain needs the technology to be empower yourselves.

Starting point is 00:25:13 You cannot go just with anything and some people didn't have that. so they had to facilitate at the end a little bit in any way that they could. Yeah, I think that's understandable considering the conditions. And what about your project, Qatar? So again, my year was quite different compared to IRIS's year. So I had quite a different experience in terms of mine and the new project. As I said earlier, I always pride of myself being the hardest worker in the room. So I would always do incredibly outlandish projects.

Starting point is 00:25:46 But something that my university actually would be like, no, that's crazy. Why would you do that? It's going to take way too long. I always ended up completing it and getting good grades in it. Fortunately, there was three other people in my class who shared the similar philosophy. I've had to get on. You create not only the final project, but the previous project to our universe, my final product, well. There was this interesting experience, which was this game pitch ideal we had to,

Starting point is 00:26:14 which was you would create an. know some kind of promotional idea presentation for a game and he will go to a game studio and talk about your idea and present it to them sorry would it be like that for real you would go to the game studio and then speak to their devs or speak to the CEO whoever is available fortunately it's just to iterate this wasn't my final major project this was the project before but i would work with the same people into my final budget project and who have asked for dozens and dozens of hours in. We stayed behind past 9 o'clock. When they closed the universe, we hit underneath the table so we could use the community and then they eventually bound us and keep this up. Oh, the G, and puts us into our final Ninja portrait. So the Vorgia itself was a short film. We never got to finish it because as I mentioned previously, we were using motion capture suits for it. And because COVID happened, we didn't get to finish our recordings. So a roster of and the stuff we wanted to do, we couldn't do.

Starting point is 00:27:17 We made a bunch of the characters and the environment, but the overall project didn't go ahead. And it was supposed to be a world several hundred years ahead of where we are now. Humanity has moved on and unfortunately passed away, and the age of robots in the sentient creatures kind of taken over. But these robots, they're not like how it is depicted in love death robots. there was this kind of calamity almost like meets your strike

Starting point is 00:27:46 which wiped out of humanity and humanity what's left tried to preserve their culture and preserve their history in different ways so they would embody these ancient figures in these mechanical states so some ancient Polish warriors

Starting point is 00:28:03 sparsens reimagined Greek goddesses and warriors there's robots and then because I'm a tiny bit statistical, I made myself because, you know, I thought I would work like. So with my colleagues, we created a bunch of these mechanical robots, and we were going to have a short film in which they stumbled upon this ruin of humanity and they find this engine that can sustain them. Because, of course, as they were built by humans and humans

Starting point is 00:28:31 are no longer there, they need to have the technology to be able to sustain themselves, because as humanity can't keep them alive and need to find out for themselves. And it was going to be the journey of these four robots going along through the world trying to sustain themselves in a dying planet while not losing themselves and eventually becoming more human than the humans that had passed away previously. It sounds so exciting. Is it on your art station or somewhere? Unfortunately not. Some of the characters were at the time, but as we moved on and I grew as an artist, I looked back to it and the work is good. However, I felt like some of my newer projects were a bit, more interesting visually. So I took that song my portfolio.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Oh, okay. Yeah, I understand. Just a quick one. If you enjoy our podcast, please give us a review on your favorite podcast app, subscribe or share it with your friends. For more information, visit the show notes. Thank you and back to the show. So before leaving the topic of university, can you both share some key lessons that you learn from there? you are lecturers will only take you so far. University itself will only take you so far. It is a tool just like anything else.

Starting point is 00:29:46 However, a tool is only as good as the person who will than you. If you're willing to go the extra mile and push for what you really want to become, use university as a stepping stone and apply yourself in as many different ways as you can. You find new resources. Put yourself to work. Look at that I said, it costs so much money. Get the best out of it. But also put yourself into it,

Starting point is 00:30:13 because at the end of the day, you get what you're willing to put in. So if you put it in 110%, you'll get back the same. I can agree. What do you think, Iris? I'm very much nearer-corner in one saying about lectures will only take you so far.

Starting point is 00:30:30 The whole university experience will only take you so far. I mean, you need to look at it from the perspective of people are not there to push you. So you need to be self-motivated in a lot of times. And you need to really push yourself through the good and the bad to get to where you were to be. In the end, hard work, really hard work, especially if you don't have your family around you.

Starting point is 00:30:56 It's really hard to motivate yourself to, you know, wake up every morning without your mom telling you to family. It's to be motivated enough to, after a day of university, still go to work and earn your own, and then go to your other job. And, you know, you really do need to push through and see the light at the other end, because the light is there if you put the work. And, you know, motivation is hard, but bring and try to find motivation in the little things and happiness as well.

Starting point is 00:31:28 Because a lot of the times, university, you know, it's really good. party, you go do all of these crazy things. But at the end of the day, maybe you go to bed and you feel exhausted. You feel like your social battery is drained. You feel like your emotional battery is drained. So just take a moment to take a deep breath. And if you need to give yourself some time to, you know, gather your energy, go somewhere else, go for a walk. Maybe, you know, I've missed a couple of classes once because I was just not in the right mindset. And, you know, my mom was not there to tell you out. So, what was the issue?

Starting point is 00:32:05 But I was always very hard on myself. Throughout the whole university, I worked a lot, both at university, outside of university. And I feel like I've pushed myself too hard. So it's good to push yourself hard to point. Be motivated, hard work and all that. But in times when you need to give yourself some, you know, take a breath, give yourself some time to relax and regain your batteries, just give yourself that time because that's precious.

Starting point is 00:32:34 Yeah, sounds good. And how did you guys start planning your ways into industry? Did you have a plan or was it more random? For me, I was quite fortunate to have industry links pretty early on. As I mentioned previously, my sister Bay games from future. She could give me a job per se because of course, straight-house in the university, I only have X amount of experience. However, what I could do is I could speak to these amazing people.

Starting point is 00:33:00 where I could acquire connections and I could look at these portfolios and so one and getting information that would allow me to grow and allow me to get what I need to. So I took all of that information and digested as much as I could. So that when it came time to get out of university, I was only one step ahead. And because of that, I was picked up by a pretty amazing studio straight away at house of the university because I was willing to go the extra mile because I was willing to put the hardworking and that went really well

Starting point is 00:33:35 after living to my next studio was when Iris graduated university and because we were already hanging out quite a lot at that point and we had a lost and shared interests and my company was actually looking for an environment artist at the time I was like hey you want to pick a lot of private in a bit out of Irish

Starting point is 00:33:57 go Yeah, so I was graduating. At this point, Connor was interviewing with a few companies. He had not yet joined these games companies at the time. So I was putting myself out there, working with my portfolio. This was just after COVID. So there was issues with companies, but also there was the option of remote. So that was made available in the beginning.

Starting point is 00:34:22 Not for the best circumstances, but nevertheless, again, some opportunities to people to join. And I was looking around, send lots of CVs, work on my portfolio, got a billion nose. It's always hard in the beginning. I just need to crack the shell. I had an interview once with Playground Games for their title coming of Fable. I was so excited because they were the first to give me the opportunity to interview with them. I screamed and Connor heard me from downstairs and came running and broke a frame on the way because it had happened to me. But I was over the moon. I was really excited. I interviewed and I did the art test. But then I ended out not getting recruited by the company, which, you know, it's sad, but still I was given the

Starting point is 00:35:11 opportunity and I was very honored. And then I interviewed with a couple more companies and had the opportunity to join a studio. But then with Conner's company, at this point, he had already joined and he was there for almost a month. And this opportunity came for me to interview with a company. And then I got the role of the environment artist, which I was, you know, over the moon I was very happy about. I had just graduated. I was probably one of the lucky ones during COVID, graduating

Starting point is 00:35:38 and getting a job almost immediately afterwards. It's an achievement, for sure. And then we started working together. Connor as a senior artist and myself as an environment artist. And the journey was a very interesting one as well, because it was an indie games company had just started, and they were planning on doing this sort of tower defense game, multiplayer. So the whole idea, the whole concept was really exciting,

Starting point is 00:36:05 and the people working in the company were amazing individuals as well. We were not a big company, we were about seven. We had two 3D artists, two game devs, one concept artist, we had the CEO. There was a few more of the West. We had it at 10 months. There was a few more there. Yeah, some people got let go along the way And then we got let go along the way

Starting point is 00:36:27 Which, you know How come with what was there is a financial difficulty? Financial difficulty from the company Is it some consequences of the COVID or it was related to COVID? Not to go into detail too much, but it wasn't COVID related It was like funds were allocated to different sections of the company Unless you bought the benches

Starting point is 00:36:49 and those ventures didn't go the way that our CEO at the time predicted. And, of course, that money was supposed to be the runway for us to go on and continue the project. Being 3D artists, we are very expensive to have in our company. This would have to be equivalent. We have to paste all of the subscriptions to the various software, as well as the salary for two people. So that was one of the things to sustain the company. Once they had the minimum amount of assets to continue, they were like, okay, let's cut our most draining things out,

Starting point is 00:37:26 just pulling the money so that we can have room to continue. And unfortunately, at the time, that was us. And we were renting your hounds at the time, so we got let go. Both of us on the same day, early notice, garden leaves, and we were stressed. I can imagine it. So did you start looking for a new work as soon as possible? Or what was your reaction? So that was the time that NFT someone began.

Starting point is 00:37:54 Oh, okay. Everyone and their mom was jumping into NFTs. Everybody was like, this is finally a platform for digital artists to have a voice and to get their work monetized and their work to feel appreciated. And of course, being digital artists, being on both the giving and the receiving end, I was like, yes, this is a fantastic opportunity. we'll jump in, we'll finally be able to make something of our digital work because we run into the thing that

Starting point is 00:38:22 a lot of the time people perceive digital work to be easy and straightforward and simple. When the loss of the cases, it's like so many times harder and they're so much longer, so much less visually grassifying each steps. So being able to jump into the world when FDs, we are very excited. It's so hard. It was a facade, a complete facade.

Starting point is 00:38:44 It was one of those things that the zero point 1% of people were managing to make it to the top of the mountain, but on top of the shoulders of everybody else. We were very much joked around. We were putting on a loss of work in every day. We would get some money, but then our people who were hiring us were wiggling their way out of the contracts. And we had a few projects which went really, really well, some projects which were massive in scope, which unfortunately didn't go so well.

Starting point is 00:39:15 and some that were just, there were just too much of a headache. So we took our losses where we could and decided that NFTs was not the place for us to go. However, it allowed us to sustain ourselves in this period of uncertainty. We wanted to do this thing that shot us into the stratosphere. And turns out it was a thing,

Starting point is 00:39:35 it was a tie rope at which we walked across the edge of a champion. That's really interesting. I wouldn't even think of trying NFTs as artists. There were so many companies at the time going on about NFTs is the big thing. NFTs, NFTs, NFTs, NFTs, this, NFT tickets, NFT games places, NFT studios, all this type of stuff. So we being very capable for the artist, one environment artists, one in charity artists, we can do the entire spectrum of things. So we thought, yes, we might as well jump into it. If I could go back and be at that point again, the decision I would make is I would still go into NFDs, in fact, probably much to the shock of ours.

Starting point is 00:40:21 However, it would be for myself. We worked for other people and tried to make other people rich. If I knew what I knew now, then we would have done it for ourselves in a much more capable way, in a much quicker way, a way that wouldn't breathe anywhere near as much toxicity. our lives and probably we would have gained much more worth like us. Thank you. We're part of about four to five NFT projects in the space six months. Some of them, they went really well. And unfortunately, the project, some of them didn't get out there because different parts

Starting point is 00:41:00 of the project. And you're very dependent on everything. So you've got the initial thought, you've got the marketing, you've got the artists, you've got the devs. And if one part fails, the whole project. will go down, which is very, very unfortunate for us especially because marketing for most projects was very, very unsuccessful. And some other projects were way more of a headache than we predicted. Yeah, I can imagine. But as Conner said, if you did it by yourself, would you be able to

Starting point is 00:41:32 have enough salary to live from it? I guess an NFT projects in the beginning, everyone pitches it to you. It's a great opportunity. It's a hype dream. Yeah, they're trying to sell it. You'll get something out of it. If we're successful, those are the little letters that we fail to read sometimes if we get successful. But you need to believe in it. It's almost like a whole word shit behind it, right?

Starting point is 00:42:01 Now, we're all of these people, mainly businessmen, because NFTs are there's a meaning of expression for artists in a different medium. so in the blockchain. It very much jumped from that to business people trying to make as much money from it as possible. And that's where we sort of got caught in the net of rich people trying to get richer and using our skills to do so.

Starting point is 00:42:24 And we had to step up a lot and be very harsh in some moments. But if I was to go back, I would probably still do a couple of projects from the ones that we've done, probably advise people better at the time so they could, you know, or be harsher, so they could move forward with better decisions.

Starting point is 00:42:47 And I would do my own. Yes, I would. Because at the end of the day, NFTs are still profitable depending on how you look at it and depending on what you do. And at the end of the day, yes, it's a different medium of art.

Starting point is 00:43:01 And I think I speak for myself, who's quarter where I say that we like to try everything in the artistic world. So, yeah, definitely I would go back and do it with a different mentality. We now have different skills as well, but we also have different mindset to it, and we are tougher. And just out of curiosity, what's your opinion about NFT now? Do you think it's that, or is there still some potential? So for me, it's an interesting one because I actually work in an NFT game studio.

Starting point is 00:43:35 Oh, okay. Biased opinion then. Yes. Well, I feel like I could have a realistic thing about it because my studio itself is fantastic. The people are great. We have a vision and we are driven to execute this vision in a way that's trying to hopefully bring something fantastic new to a whole breadth of new people.

Starting point is 00:43:59 However, that is the studio that's not NFTs. NFTs itself, I feel like they have the potential to be something great. But at the moment, they are so driven by the hyperdream that they cannot be. Because everything is based on market this. Oh, you need to have your discord that. You need to believe in this and you need to believe in that. And that's only going to take people so far. You need to have a product behind.

Starting point is 00:44:30 You need to have something that people can really relate to or see. or interact with, if you're just trying to sell a dream and a fantasy, it's not going to go anywhere. So in that sense, if you're just trying to make an NFT collection to sell a fantasy, you might as well not do it. NFTs are rubbish if you're trying to do that. However, if you're trying to make a niche for yourself, you're trying to bring a new level of monetization,

Starting point is 00:44:57 and not only for the company, but for the people who purchase the NFTs to have the facility and the freedom to be able to trade amongst like-minded people, that is fantastic. Imagine the world of Counterstrike or League of Legends where all of these skins which cost hundreds of thousands of pounds if you could trade it with other people and actually make money from it. That is for me what NFTs should be.

Starting point is 00:45:23 And yes, it kind of is, but it's also kind of not. The technology, it's like just over the horizon. We're running the sunset to get there, but it's not there yet. Hopefully, with the people like myself and guys and studios like First Light Games and other people, we can reach that margin. But at the moment, it's just a fantasy. Yeah. Iris, do you share the opinion, or what do you think?

Starting point is 00:45:52 I share my opinion with Connor. I think one of the things that fascinated me a lot about identities. In the beginning, it was the art, and obviously it all prints up possibilities, like art station at the time opened up a whole world and artists managed to connect and to see what each of them is capable of. But when utilities came along and there was a lot of things like

Starting point is 00:46:15 you purchase this NFD, you get the chance of going on a trip. And it was a lot of like equality in that sense. It was... Deregrancy about it. Yeah, but it was, you purchase this NFT and there is perks with, you know, you can learn 3D or you would be tutored in something or you would help in like a mental health

Starting point is 00:46:37 cause or a charity. And I feel like that for me, you have the art. The art is beautiful. There's a purpose behind the art. So like Connor said, if you're trying to create a project and there's an idea and there's a purpose behind it, then I think it says any other idea and any other project. You should always move forward and it should put everything you've, not everything you've got, but everything that you can give to the project and push it forward. And in the future, if we were to do an NFT, that's exactly what we would do. Because a lot of them, they had the pretty face and, you know, they advertised, you know, the art and the supposed utilities, but then there was no substance, no actual substance

Starting point is 00:47:20 behind it because it was a lot of promises. But you need to bring something solid into it and something genuine if you want to be a good project, not just a successful project, but a good project in this all essence. Yeah, that's interesting opinions. I didn't really think about it this way. I have to say that I kind of agree because I'm not much into RFT. I don't know, definitely not as much as you do. But there is this kind of reputation, I would say, rather negative.

Starting point is 00:47:50 But what you just said, it makes sense. You know, what I think is, is a world of influence. influences that have created a stigma around NFTs. There is you see things like the Bored Ape Yacht Club, images of these monkeys being traded for millions of pounds, where you see on the other hand you see fantastic generative art pieces using code and using various technologies to make something organic and lifelike that can evolve as you interact with it.

Starting point is 00:48:28 And those things that are interesting pioneers are pushed to the side in favor of this stupid image, which, because this influencer has spent a ridiculous amount of money, or now this is super famous and this is super cool. One of the interesting stuff that leads just behind the surface of this influencer shield is lost. And because the influencer shield is so big, social media is taking over. it's where everything is going. It has ruined, in my opinion, the stigma of NFTs. Yeah. And the rush to just get anything that you can make as quickly as possible

Starting point is 00:49:10 just for the purpose of making money. Yes. It's a tool to facilitate creatives, not monetize creatives. Yes, again. Yeah. I was curious, can you both introduce a bit more your current work? maybe what you do, what's your day like? Yes, so after the whole NFTs venture,

Starting point is 00:49:34 we then again started looking for jobs in the games industry. And at the time, positions were not open a lot. And it was also hard because at the time I was not a graduate, so I couldn't apply for a graduate position, which now there's a fair amount of graduate positions out there. So I couldn't apply for a graduate position, but I was in between not really a junior, not really a senior, so it was a bit of an odd one.

Starting point is 00:50:04 And then I got a position at this studio called Fire Without Smoke, which was not a studio that makes games, but it was a studio that gets games from clients and create cinematics for the games. And they worked in fantastic games. They produce amazing cinematics. I joined the team and I stayed there for about. three weeks to a month and the people were fantastic but I just it wasn't what I wanted to do

Starting point is 00:50:31 I wanted to make the games I didn't want to get the product and you know make a cinematic out of it and sorry can you for someone who doesn't know what is cinematic so cinematic is technically what we did was we get footage from the game and create whole like trailer experience so we create a whole sort of you know a film out of bit. And then, yeah, I mean, it was fun. We played with the characters. We played with things that were yet to come out to the public. Some games are still being worked on nowadays. So it was very exciting on that end. And the team, again, was fantastic, very quirky people, very supportive, very knowledgeable. But unfortunately, it's not what I wanted to do. And because it's not what I wanted to do,

Starting point is 00:51:20 I didn't want to stay and, you know, beat around the bush for too long. fix something that I know. It's not out of my interest. So then in the process, I was still looking and this company called Wave contacted me for a position of the three generalists. But the way they approached me was more of getting or providing me or giving me a position of being more like a programmer, Python programmer and making tools, which was something that I had never done at the time. and I said, wait, I had never coded to that extent. I don't want to be a programmer, I want to be a 3D artist. Then they said, well, but you can also be a 3D artist.

Starting point is 00:52:04 So that's the job with a 3D generalist. He's doing a bit of everything. And I think that's really interesting, especially coming to nowadays, the world with AI coming along. I feel like being a 3D generalist is... Yes, it's the future, but you also get to experience, and being knowledgeable in multiple subjects, not just the one, they specialize on. So then I did the interviews.

Starting point is 00:52:28 It was five odd interviews, plus an art test. It was a lot to get through. But I finally got the job and I was very happy about it. And Wedge is a fantastic company and they are a technology company so they're not a game studio. And they're currently working on creating or producing a software for self-driving cars. So they are Kings Cross-based and they've got cars going around, found driving themselves. And as part of the company, they've got simulate them, which is what I work on, creating visuals. So I do 3D.

Starting point is 00:53:05 I've started working with programs that at the time I had never worked with, like Houdini, for example. Most of my team actually has VFX background. So it's really interesting that a lot of people come from a similar industry. put together their knowledge from games and VFX to bring up this simulator for something completely different from the entertainment industry. And yeah, the company has supported me a lot of learning developments. Now I also code for the company and create tools for the software that I use. So I feel like I've been in the company for a year now and I've been very fortunate. First of all, with team that I landed on, they're amazing people, always pushing,

Starting point is 00:53:48 info and supporting me, but also the company itself and the potential that it has to change the future. It's something that everybody should be looking forward to. Yeah, I was going to say that sounds really exciting at the same time, working on something with such a vision and like a purpose to make a difference. That sounds really cool. Yes. And is it like something similar to what is autopilot in Tesla, for example, just to get Yes, it is, but what we're doing that is quite different. So we have a fleet of cars that we modify. We use Jaguar iPases.

Starting point is 00:54:26 So we don't have our cars, like a lot of companies that produce the software for their own cars, like Tesla does, for example. What we try to do is to scale the technology. So we would put this software in a car or in a van, and they would perform the same. So we can scale it across multiple cities, maybe in multiple countries. who knows. Yeah, that turns amazing. What about you, Connor? What's your career job like?

Starting point is 00:54:53 So my current job, as I mentioned previously, is an NFT games company. It is an interesting position to be in because I am very much a realist artist, and I should create realistic characters. The thing that really compels me is sci-fi visuals, because it's really. which inspired me to go into the ball of games. The current game position I'm in right now is the opposite of Essentire. It's a Basel Reale game for the mobile, so it can only have the certain amounts of fidelity, and the art style is a bit more stylized in itself.

Starting point is 00:55:38 So it's a bit more simple, the forms are a bit more QT and so on, so it's not something I had imagined myself working in. However, the opportunity presented itself to me after having the NFT part that I did. And it's something I didn't want to turn my nose up at. Interestingly enough, at the same time, I was being accepted in this company. I was actually interviewing and doing the art test for Hello Games, the people who make No Man's Sky. So that is exactly where I wanted to be. It's sci-fi, it's realistic, it's hundreds of different worlds,

Starting point is 00:56:20 I could be the curator and the art designer of my own planet, creating all different types of things. However, this is one thing that for anybody else listening to this podcast will probably run into if they go into the industry at some point. It's probably not so much of a thing now that remote working is a thing, or it could be the commute. I wanted to be able to get to work and get back home Within about 40 minutes to an hour

Starting point is 00:56:48 However, this studio was very far away from where I was living in time It would take it be two, maybe two and a half hours to get there And because of that, it was just unfeasible Even though the studio was fantastic They've already created a game that I've already put hundreds of hours in And I had already completed and passed the art test So it was already a good point. But this studio, it had an interesting philosophy.

Starting point is 00:57:14 It had technology that was trying to push the boundary, which is something I'm always keen on. And it was closer and the people who I spoke to, they had the charisma and they had the information, the passion to sell me on something, which is something that I'm always receptive to. If you can convince me of your dream, that I'll believe, whereas the studio didn't really try to convince me,

Starting point is 00:57:38 because they saw themselves as being established Games company First Light Games. They were trying to be the new kid on the rock and trying to push ahead. And that is something that I really appreciate and something I wanted to join in and be a part of because the power of indie game studios is you have a freedom to be able to create your vision.

Starting point is 00:57:57 Whereas AAA Studios, you're very much bottlenecked into being a specific thing. That being in the case, I joined the company as a 3-E generalist, very much like how I had a sense. And I've always been a 3-E generalist. As I mentioned previously, I always tried to do massive projects where the scope was so huge that I had to cover multiple different facets. And that has very much carried forward into this studio as well.

Starting point is 00:58:21 I've been at the studio for about a year now and had been fortunate enough to be promoting to the late 3D artists of the game's company. So we are trying to push forward and make the game as wide-reaching as can be and a great introduction. for people who are in the Web 2 world, for those who don't know, the traditional internet, like what we have right now, YouTube, Google, Yahoo, Instagram, is considered Web 2.

Starting point is 00:58:50 Web 3 is everything that can include the blockchain, so NFTs, cryptocurrencies, and so on, is considered Web 3. That our game has the promise to be the bridge between the Web 2 and the Web 3 communities, and I find that very interesting. and being in the position of being lead artists on this, I could very much put my footprint in this game

Starting point is 00:59:15 and very much be myself, because I've always wanted to be somebody who has fingers and all the different pies. So being in this type of studio as an indie game dev and a free eye is working with these amazing people. I very much hate people with doing that. So I really do enjoy myself doing this, but it's also very stressful as well because being the lead there's a lot of responsibility

Starting point is 00:59:42 but also the team is not very big so I'm pretty much working on a large section of the game and of course that has its various stresses however with the support and with the passion and the drive that myself and the team have I know it's something that no matter how difficult it is for now as we expand it as we go on in the future and deliver this vision and deliver this ideal to a lot of different people, it's going to be experienced as going to know worthwhile. Our target audience is people who are

Starting point is 01:00:17 playing on mobile devices. Eventually, it'll probably expand to more PC and console-based people. But right now we want to be able to deliver this game to a wider platform people as possible and what's the easiest way to do that. On the thing that you carry around, every single day.

Starting point is 01:00:35 That's where it will market it to that. And is there a specific date for release of that game? So at the moment we are in a transition period from how the game was to this new vision

Starting point is 01:00:52 of the game. I'm not going to say too much because we actually have a fantastic community person who's all over this. So shameless plug, join the first like games discord and see all of this information because the game

Starting point is 01:01:08 is it's coming along and it's going to be fantastic and we have lots of great community events that link our player base with the devs. We want to have this position where the game is for the community as well as made

Starting point is 01:01:24 by the community. So we work under the suggestions of what other people say what our communities and we want to feel like in the world of Web 3 and you being entitled to only your own assets, you also have your own voice. So with the power of Web 3 and having the great community people that we did, we're able to listen to our community and really make impact the changes into our game that can make it the best for what our players and eventually the world be.

Starting point is 01:01:50 Yeah, that sounds like really cool company with a great vision as well, I have to say. But I must say to respect your time, we've been talking quite a lot and time is coming to an end. So I guess I would just say a big thank you. It was great to meet you both. I would be happy to catch up any time in the future again because I feel like there is still a lot of stuff to discuss. And in the last few minutes, there is something you would like to share or even promote yourself.

Starting point is 01:02:23 Well, of course, before we do anything of commercial, you want to thank you for having us on the show, giving us the opportunity to be able to. It's my pleasure. Yes, it's a great opportunity and it's been fantastic to, be here and sharing our experience because you will definitely help other people upon the decisions they make, both in the industry and outside of the industry. But in terms of things that we want to promote, myself and Iris actually are endeavoring loads of different ventures. And our most

Starting point is 01:02:51 recent one is we're actually jumping into the world of game streaming. So we have opened up a platform on Twitch and our account is called Trident Rygin in which we are playing loads of different cool games at the moment we're going through a game with Elden Ring, which is like a from software dark source style game. But we try to incorporate loads of different challenges, loads of different in-world things and loads of different games that can win a smile to people's cases. We want to bring both aspects of what it means to be in the world of games,

Starting point is 01:03:27 and also through play. This is, we make games and we decided that the best, way to find the excuse to play them is to actually do a Twitch stream and doubt into challenges and ourselves out there because it also you know it puts ourselves out there as not only artists but you know people that love playing games and we are very quiet and we love to you know experiment like I was saying we love to experiment with all sorts of things be making games playing games going off and during, I know, we've recently done tough thing in London, which was quite fun, duerly making.

Starting point is 01:04:10 We just love to go for all sorts of things. Yeah, sounds amazing. I will get the links and we'll add it to the show notes. Amazing. Thank you. So both Connor and Iris, thank you so much for your time. I will stay in touch and wish you good luck in career and with your Twitch as well. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 01:04:30 Thank you. And it was pleasure to meet you. See soon. Thank you for listening to Produce Bye. Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast app, leave a review or send us your feedback. For more information about the host, links from the episode and ways to connect with us, visit the show notes. If you know someone who would be an ideal guest for our podcast, please get in touch. Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - #28 - Íris Santos and Connor McCoy: Artistic Couple Working Towards Greater Visions

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