Produced By - #29 - Fatma Rikabi Sukari: From Adverse Conditions in Animation to a Meaningful Path in VFX

Starting point is 00:00:03 Fatma Rika Bissukari is an animation artist and VFX production coordinator based in London, currently employed with Scanline VFX, half Romanian, half Syrian. Fatma grew up in these two countries and developed an interest in animation from young age. They learned animation in order to study it at university in London, which they successfully completed. However, they encountered some challenges on the way, such as the effects of the global pandemic, and the hand injury that prohibited them from pursuing animation as a career. As a result, they switched to production and landed the position as a production assistant and Scanline VFX, one of the leading BFX companies that was acquired by Netflix.

Starting point is 00:00:45 They also have experience working as a production coordinator, where they have been collaborating with different departments, keeping projects organized and making sure everything runs smoothly. Despite the hand-injuryed, their passion for animation hasn't diminished, and they have been a and their ultimate goal is to become an animation producer. The last battle of least, Fatma discusses their experience at NSC Festival, the largest annual animation event in France. Listen to this episode to get a deep dive into animation, learn about the Hollywood productions Fatma worked on,

Starting point is 00:01:17 and be motivated by their unwavering spirit in the face of adversity. Enjoy it. Hello Fatma, thank you for Jinnas today and welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for invite. inviting me. Can you please introduce yourself? So my name is Fatma Rikavi Sakari and I recently graduated like a year ago and I work as a PA at Scanline. Can you just say what is Scanline so that people have an idea? So Scanline is like a VFX production company that recently got empowered by Netflix and we do VFX. Oh no. Where is it based? Is it London based? So it's based in London. It

Starting point is 00:02:02 in Munich, in Germany, and there is some in North America too. Okay, can we try with your background? Can you tell us where are we from? Yep. So I'm from Romania. I'm actually half Syrian, half Romanian. And I arrived like in Europe in 2009, yeah, and I stayed there. And then at some point I had this glorious idea like, yep, I want to study animation.

Starting point is 00:02:23 I want to go to arts after I finished a lot of finance and like economical backgrounds. And I came to UK to study animation. and do a hand injury, I was like, you know what? I can't really draw for a periods of time, so I may as well, you know, my skills in finance, try production. And I applied to production. And it's something I actually really like, so. Are you planning to stay in a production or once your hand improves? Do you want to come back to?

Starting point is 00:02:50 It's kind of my new goal is to be like an animation producer, to have like my own show. So I think I'll stay in production for a bit longer. Yeah. So does Scanline have like animation department or do you work for animation or it's not in animation? No, Scanline is mostly just VFX and I do want to work in animation later. So just help somewhere else. Yeah, okay. And as you said, you are half Syrian. Did you live in Syria as well or you were born in Romania? I was born in Romania, but then I lived for a short period of time of my childhood in Syria and then I would like travel between countries every season. I'm curious, can you say a bit more about what was it like in Syria back then?

Starting point is 00:03:36 It's like very rough because I was like a very small child during that time, but I remember it was way like different than like in Europe, I guess, in some degree. Given schools we had like a more organized in some way, I guess, for me when I was a child. Because I remember when I came to Europe, it was more like freehanding. Yeah, yeah. what was free to do like you know you're taking it easy you're learning while when I was in Syria was like you need to learn now this is how you do it and you do it then so did you enjoy it more in Romania then than in Syria um it's hard to say because when I was in Syria it was like very brief experience because I was very young so because I was like half European in a way I would

Starting point is 00:04:22 say like it was very easy for people to I don't remember exactly the word but it just like they will like take the kids away kind of dangerous especially my mother was very young so we were allowed to do a lot of stuff because we're looking very different to the other kids and there were instances

Starting point is 00:04:41 when my mother was stalked because of this so it was at freedom as I thought yeah I understand and when you were in Romania were you already interested in animation I was mostly doing art as a hobby because I never knew you can like, you know, earn something out of it in Romania doing art.

Starting point is 00:05:02 It's like in a very rough stages like you hear about graphic design and fine art and architecture, most of it, but that's it. And I went into like more economical business background because that's like something flourishing there. And at some point I met a friend. I mean, it's more like it's a group of people I sign up at some point for like mentorship. And she was doing film. She told me like she's applying in the UK and I was like, is that possible?

Starting point is 00:05:30 And then she was like, yeah, it's free if you go to different programs. And I said, I'm going to do some research. And then I thought actually are earning money doing art. It was just like a free hobby. And I said, yeah, I want to do this now. So you basically decided to apply

Starting point is 00:05:45 and that's how you ended up in London? Yeah. I remember when I learned that I need to do a portfolio, it was like how I was supposed to just learn years of art skills or apply to this, like teacher online, he had like a course, three months of learning how to draw, like, you know, some professionally in a way,

Starting point is 00:06:03 do my portfolio in two weeks, applied at all the universities I could. Was it hand-drawn or in some software? To is a mix of it, because I prefer even specifically say you need to do like traditional or like digital because I was applying in animation or illustration. I did a mix of the journeys. I did like hand-drawn, like a lot of live drawing from my sketchbooks

Starting point is 00:06:24 and like digital was kind of character designs and more story-based pieces. And now or before did you have preference or what did you enjoy more if hand drone or on software? Initially I did hand drone because that's how everyone starts, I guess. And because back home, our supplies are very expensive. And as a kid, you don't really have so many years. So I remember asking my mom like to get it. It was like an iPad. had the latest one in 2016 or 20.

Starting point is 00:06:56 And I was like, you know, I'm going to work hard. Can I get this iPad? And then she got me like in installments for like two years. And then I started digital arts so I don't, you know, buy supplies. Yeah. So then why did you pick Middlesex? Because you studied at Middlesex, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:14 I guess when I got my response for all the universities, Midasas is one of the only ones like a very London, central London base. and it had a great good equipment personally. Like, even now, I remember, like, the amount of equipment we had and access to all that equipment sold it for me. And I was like, yep, I have so much stuff there because I have nothing home. So I better go there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:07:35 So remind me what was the course? Was it actually animation? Yeah. Oh, nice. So how did you find the course? It wasn't as I thought it would be. I feel like. What was your expectation?

Starting point is 00:07:49 What did you think that it would be like? I think I expected to be, I don't know, people teaching us how to animate because it's not something you learn it's anywhere and it takes time and I expect it more like smaller workshops that are, you know, you can learn how to do this dev or just to do character design, like, you know, more in-depth or like the pipeline of an industry. But I feel like the course was very, you get some pointers on your own. So it didn't really meet your expectations. No, it didn't. And then COVID happened and it made it kind of worse. What year were you in when the COVID happened? I was in half of my first year and then my whole second year was doing uni from home. Okay, so it was very early.

Starting point is 00:08:38 Yeah. So how the course changed based on the COVID? I guess it was studied primarily from home, but can you tell us more about what was it like? I think it's kind of like it was mostly from home. It just like the modules were it wasn't really changed. So we still had like stop motion workshops. We still had to do stop motion even though there was no equipment from home. It was very hard to adapt to it.

Starting point is 00:09:03 And I guess because no one had that kind of experience was very hard to be active in classes. You know, like get out at 9 or 10, go to class for three hours. It's just from every day was very tired. So I remember sleeping through so many classes. Yeah, and also since it was so early, I guess you didn't really have much time to meet your classmates, like in person and then the COVID happened. So it was online. So you still, did you know each other were or not really? I feel like we bonded pretty well in the first year because my class was very international.

Starting point is 00:09:39 So it was very easy to bond because all of us were like just having one passion animation. So, I mean, all the people left the course later on, but the nuclear kind of like the amount of people who remained are the same ones. So we kind of bonded to some degree in the first year. So second year wasn't that awkward. Oh, okay. So why you said many people left? Why was that? Well, COVID was the reason is because you were still in to pay for the university.

Starting point is 00:10:08 And during COVID, nothing was open. People couldn't work. And then some people just froze their years and came back because they didn't see any point of, you know, like just from home. And I guess it's just people expected something else or, yeah. Yeah. So what were the projects like, for example,

Starting point is 00:10:29 the final year projects in each year? In first year, we had to do a short film. And it's like, we had different stages. Like we had like pre-production, production and like post-production. But due to COVID, everything was kind of stuck in a way. So in the end, we just had to do like a pre-production and submit that. Then we gained graded.

Starting point is 00:10:50 Second, to work like in groups. But I feel like working in groups online was not that like easy as everyone thought. It was in a way of a disaster. All of us were just like depressed and organized because we didn't really know how to work. Yeah. So when the COVID happened, what kind of student were you? I know you said you slept in a few classes. but we're actually trying to learn in your free time outside of uni or because I know that it wasn't as good as if it was in person.

Starting point is 00:11:22 So did you actually like try to do something extra to keep up or how was it for you? I did actually start to learn like software based more softwares like after effects and premiere. But at some point I think I was like a very rough period because I was just I'm not used to like staying in home for like everything was close. I was just literally home 24-7 and it was something like at least when back home I live in a village so I would go out and play or do something. But in London there was just going around like the area where I live for every day for three hours. It was quite depressing. But at some point I kind of woke up thinking, okay, third year is coming and I have no idea

Starting point is 00:12:01 where I'm going because if I'm going to be an artist, I was like researching a lot of like what are the chances of me getting a job, especially with my hand injury and you know. And then we had like some guest speakers, like guest lectures and they're explaining us how the industry is working. And then I slowly kind of research into idea of, okay, if I'm not staying in art that long, should I go back to business or management? So I was just like studying again, that. And then by the end of like Kobe, we had to come back for 30 years, basically, after all my research, I remember my teacher's telling me, okay, but have you heard of production? Like, that's something you can do because you have the skills. And I was like, what's that? Yeah, but it's good that you stayed in the industry

Starting point is 00:12:40 and you didn't leave, as you said, for something completely different because this way you can still, maybe not now, not in the future, come back to animation just from a different angle. Yeah. And when did your hand injury happen? Oh, it happened away, so it was during high school, I think, like late high school because I had periods of time when I didn't draw for long periods of time. And then by end of high school, I was very sad on like, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:07 I want to come to uni in the UK, I start fully draw continuously. And that was a very big mistake because it overloaded my wrist a lot. And I remember one of the mornings I just woke up and I just couldn't move it. It was like a pain. Like I had needles in my wrist and my hand. I went to like when off because I have a doctor who, because I have like scoliosis. So she usually checks all my bones basically. And she told me, well, you kind of, because like your nerves are pressed by the muscles and the bones.

Starting point is 00:13:36 and you can't do surgery, but it's not necessarily going to help you a lot because you still need to like chill down. And I was like, okay, that's not a good start. So it was like three weeks, four weeks of trying to think how I'm going to. Okay, I was like so much pain. I couldn't write. I was like right with my left hand. It was just like. Yeah, impossible.

Starting point is 00:13:57 Yeah. Is there like a rough time span when it might heal if it might heal? Well, healing is kind of when Because if I continue doing physio And like small exercises to like the muscles slowly train I can draw for like short periods of time That's not like a stopping It's not stopping me like for four hours

Starting point is 00:14:19 Two four hours it's okay But the moment I draw for long periods of time It's getting very painful And I feel like in the industry If you want to be an artist You're going to draw like for eight to ten hours a day So that's like a no for me And I guess you need to practice

Starting point is 00:14:34 to keep up and basically improve. But is it better now than before? Is it improving? Yeah, it is. I can draw, because the reunion was drawing a lot. I could draw like for four hours a day. And then I would just take breaks and all. I create a system.

Starting point is 00:14:49 I would say, okay, I'm working like an hour and a half. I'm taking breaks for 40 minutes, doing something, moving around and then coming back. And then do my scheduling away so I don't overload myself. And most of the projects, especially I did, because I did mostly portfolio I had a whole year to work on it so it was pretty okay

Starting point is 00:15:08 other projects were like films because I wanted to be a producer I was like okay I'm just going to build as a team and you know I'm going to just do the scheduling the preparation the pre-production part and then I would just give pointers to the people who are working with me and you know they're going to do the hard part I guess

Starting point is 00:15:23 just giving orders and this might be a silly question but wouldn't it be possible to draw on a computer with mouse or with like touchpad if you cannot draw with a pen or it's still not possible well i still like i do draw digitally because way cheaper and easier personally so i do draw like i have an iPad and i just drawing the iPad with the pen but it's still like it's kind of the same because i'm still even now when i'm working in production i'm using the mouse sometimes i have moments and it just

Starting point is 00:15:58 kind of like it gets numb but I'm like okay this is not okay yeah I guess you tried but what was it like trying to switch to the left hand oh that was so weird I mean with my left hand I can do like basic stuff like you know to some degree I can do like something that I don't need to think about what because I think when you need to put your ear into think about with my left hand it was very weird like it doesn't make sense I was like scribbling rather than you know drawing right Yeah, if I try to write with a left hand, I completely understand you. It's impossible. So can you say what was your, the project in the final year like? What did you do? What was it like? So in a final year, we had the choice to film or portfolio and I think I was a bit ambitious with my ideas.

Starting point is 00:16:46 Over-ambitious. Yeah, I was over-ambitious. And I did a portfolio. And one of my friends came to me and I was like, because you had to pitch our stories. she was like, I like your story. It was like, all the roommates, like about. And she was like, let's make a stop motion because she was a stop motion person. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. And then she had her own movie too. I was like, okay, let's do that one too. I was for two presents.

Starting point is 00:17:09 Yeah, we were a bit over-ambitious with our ideas. I didn't know that our time was more shorter than I thought. And basically, my show movie was about, like, just ambiguous in a way. Like, there's this storm. And then this girl is like, she finds a hotel and she checks in. And then through the stages she stays in a hotel, she gets this paranoia that someone is like in the same room with her. Like she's very confused of what's going on. Like, why am I still disappearing?

Starting point is 00:17:36 Someone is following me. And then at the end, she loses her mind. And then you discover that actually there was something in the hotel that was, you know, playing with her. And we built up like the sets and the characters. Everything was ready. Just the filming part was not because we ran out of time. Me too. Better scheduling next time.

Starting point is 00:17:56 Yeah, I feel like because the tutors give us you know, you can do whatever you want but the schedule that we're given was it wasn't synchronizing with our schedule on the project and there were a lot of delays due to like materials

Starting point is 00:18:09 we could have filed materials we needed and then the resources I got there were a bit too late and I didn't know so many stuff I could have bought and because in the year we chose to have them as portfolios so she would have enough work

Starting point is 00:18:23 for her own portfolio first, because she's going to be a set maker, like a bit as props. So she actually, she did build the whole set. For my film, there were three sets, I think. And for her film was like two. And she did manage to build the sets for both of the movies, the characters and the props. And I mean, I helped her too. I was a resistant. And I managed to somehow make a small team to help us with a set building.

Starting point is 00:18:48 And then I had animators ready and like compositors, music people. I was okay, everyone is ready. But I remember, was it in April when I learned, oh, the two ones wanted us to submit stuff earlier, like in May. And I was like, I am not ready for May. So in the end, did you submit unfinished project or did you do just the part or how was it then in the end? India we chose because you can choose that at the end you submit a female portfolio. We just kind of submitted it as a portfolio. So I just, oh, my friend, you have enough work right now to call it a portfolio.

Starting point is 00:19:22 So I just, in our university, we have like that professional photography studio. And I was like, I'm going to just book that one like last minute because I knew someone there. We're going to just take like fancy professional pictures. Then you have a portfolio. And for me, I already finished my portfolio like, I think in March, it was my profile. It was done. I didn't have to worry about that.

Starting point is 00:19:41 I just had to put the professional pictures basically for my pitch. When we submitted, you know, when uni, we just said we are submitting a portfolio and not a film. We're just like a preview. It had like a small trailer. But that's it. So we kind of just went a bit around the rules because the rules said you can do this one or this one. You can, you know, so we win in a way.

Starting point is 00:20:00 And after submission, did you still continue to finish the project? It wasn't planned to finish the project, but because basically it chose to stay in the UK, but I really needed an income so I was working at different jobs around London. And she had to go back to home in Kent. So she was very far away from London. So it was very hard to keep track of all this. And it was hard to find the space where to do it because until then we're using like the university spaces like stop motion rooms and all the crew from uni. But after we finished, it was like, okay, let's take a break. But then where are we going to film all this?

Starting point is 00:20:37 And, you know, we had to because when we built the set, it was very, especially the characters, it was very fast. You know, we didn't really have time to think about armatures and puppets. So they were very basic. So initially we had to, we were thinking if you want to continue filming these two shows. shorts, we need to rebuild the characters with like proper armatures and those cost money. And we're thinking, okay, we're going to save up money and we're going to do it. But then slowly the cost of everything will increase and none of us had enough money to worry about this.

Starting point is 00:21:06 Yeah, it is another standard. And how long was that planned length of the film? Mine, I think it was maybe five minutes and her was way longer. I think her was 12 and then we were. trying to find ways how to cut it shorter because I think this short movies we learned so many techniques you can like cheat your way both of the movies are in a way are rated because their movie deals with like domestic violence based like on a Turkish song and mine deal to like horror or like paranoia very high mental state so we are thinking how can you play with it so still

Starting point is 00:21:45 you can still showcase the festivals without you know getting censored and then we discovered later later like I was researching movies and like techniques and then for her movie we're thinking okay we cannot show the violence because we won't be allowed to show the violence and it's very hard to animate this top motion so I think let's make it's very sound based so in the movie most important part was the sound design for her movie so we had storyboards and I was like okay if we follow the storyboards we put this sound like would be this bit of silence will be here slower we put like this kind of like music in the background and with my mine was a lot of fancy camera pants to like showcase big and small spaces.

Starting point is 00:22:26 By using different techniques, we're like trying to shorten it down more and more to have maybe under five, it was kind of the left we wanted to go with. And as we discussed stop motion, can you try to introduce what is stop motion to someone who doesn't know anything about it? So, suppose, just like an animation technique where you use in a more simplest way, real puppets. The best example is Nightmare before Christmas

Starting point is 00:22:53 who I think everyone saw it. I remember actually it's one of my friends and he held his CG and I was like, it's not, it's just puppets. And it's impressive if you consider when it was made. I think it's quite old film but still so beautiful and really well done.

Starting point is 00:23:10 I think stop motion as an animation, it's one of the hardest because when you do to the animation or 3D, you can do back and forth and check your like in-between But with stop motion, it's way harder to do that. It's used Dragon Frame, which is one of the programs we use. It just captures the pictures.

Starting point is 00:23:28 But you can use the onion skin to see what was before, but you need to plan your moves in advance, because you can't really go back and add something. You can't just delete. You need to be very patient, right? Yeah, that's the sick of part. You need to be very patient about it too. And with just two people doing all the sets, animation, everything,

Starting point is 00:23:48 was a change of time. Let's think of all this. Yeah. And why did you actually decide for stop motion? Are you fan of this type of animation? I think initially I wanted to go to D because do my designs every 2Dish looking. But then my friend who came to me was like, okay, your idea sounds, it can go in stop motion.

Starting point is 00:24:08 I was like, okay, let's talk about it. And then it makes sense because if you look at all of the stop motions in general, you have this very uncanny, you know, feeling like it's a real. life and you feel like because in stop motion all the objects in our life to some degree you can see the horror of it you can feel it is like live actually to some degree so you connect with the characters and i was like okay it makes sense why we can do a stop motion because you will feel the same anxiety as the girl because you know she's an object in our life she's the real puppet so you will feel the same feeling to some degree and what kind of material were using i know that quite often

Starting point is 00:24:46 clay is used or like puppets? For our puppets because it was very short time we went. So we had like our small armatures but my friend built them. She built it with metal wires, wood and there was another material. I don't remember that she did like the legs and the hands. But the heads were made of wood. She carved it. She carved all the head.

Starting point is 00:25:11 And then she did a lot of material around them. Like it was kind of everything homemade. way like yeah it was her plan with available resources with the budget yeah I know I think loves cooers to build stuff yeah and to get an idea what was the scale when it comes to can you say roughly what was like the height of the puppet what was the size of the set the puppets too pretty small I think it's like maybe this big I guess like my hand kind of like maybe you're smaller yep but this Sets were pretty big.

Starting point is 00:25:47 I don't know. I'm not very good with... Would it be maybe like a half meter high or even meter or less? One of the sets was like a staircase going spiral. And that's I think maybe a meter high. Maybe shorter. I don't remember exactly. But we had...

Starting point is 00:26:07 For my film, they were like the stairs, which were like very high in. And then we had two sets, like a hotel reception and bedroom. and both of them were pretty big because we had to have someone helping us you know, carrying them around. And how long does it roughly take to build such a set? I think we worked on the sets

Starting point is 00:26:26 maybe four or five months but it was kind of every day for like 10, 12 hours because I know I did have the skills to like build us as I was helping as an assistant and then we got different like assistants to help us so it wasn't just us

Starting point is 00:26:41 so while my friends was doing that I was helping her with her portfolio is like kind of giving tasks to each other to like earn more time. Just came to my mind that I know there is a studio called Laika. Do you know it? Yeah. Yeah, and they're well known for stop motion features. And I've seen a few videos how they built sets for their films.

Starting point is 00:27:03 And if you see it like as a time lapse, it's really beautiful like the whole process. But if you consider how much time, effort and patience and everything they put into. it's unbelievable. Yeah, it's just like with stop motion, the process is very painful, but the end result, it gives you this feeling of accomplishment. Yeah, it's just beautiful because these days most of the animation is 3D or like these days, even 2D when it comes, for example, to new Spider-Man and films like that. And stop motion is not that usual.

Starting point is 00:27:38 No, it's very expensive. Like it takes maybe two to five years to do something and very expensive. It's like an investment and then you don't know if the movie will like earn the enough money to cover all the expenses. But I believe with there like just likea and Ardman, there's like the biggest studios and there's another one in UK, A&C, I think. And it's like, you know, these two will, after five years, they will make something very good. It's like there'll be no mess with that. So it's like everyone is waiting to see what are they not come. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:10 So have you got favorite stop-mortial animation store? I think I really loved Kubo and the two strings, I think it was. Yes, from Lika, right? Yeah, that one, I think it was one of my favorite one to this day. I think I really liked it and then I saw the process of how they did everything and I was like impressed. What did you like particularly this one? I mean, the soundtrack was very good and I think it just, the story was it worked for me. I mean, it's children's three because at the end, if you like Washington, you think, okay,

Starting point is 00:28:42 this didn't really end realistically correct. But it's just very hard-warming in some degree. And when I saw the process behind the scenes of how they built everything, I was like, wow, the process too. I think I actually watched behind the scenes of this one on YouTube as well. And I can only agree with you. Just a quick one. If you enjoy our podcast, please give us a review on your favorite podcast app,

Starting point is 00:29:08 subscribe or share it with your friends. For more information, visit the show notes. Thank you and back to the show. So, after your university, how did you start planning your way into industry? It was a very, it kind of comes the idea during my uni, my third year. I think around February, I really start applying to jobs early on and, you know, talking with people in the industry, trying to understand the process to some degree. And it was a lot of just continuously applying.

Starting point is 00:29:42 and talking. Like I was very actively talking like people in production or like in talent and management even with artists. Those are like events online I would try to go to because physically I was like during the day mostly working as a waiter so I was like okay need to find a way in. So it's just continuously applying to jobs basically. But it sounds like a good student who didn't underestimate it for the last minute. As you said you started early. Yeah. So do you know When or by when did you get a job? Was it like when you finished?

Starting point is 00:30:18 Did you have something already? Or how was it? So I finished in May. I submitted everything. I had my graduation in June. And then the job I got with Scanline was in August, at the start of August. So I think it was a very kind of early.

Starting point is 00:30:34 If I think it from my perspective, it was from February until August. Because during uni, I was continuously, you know, getting rejected. Every day I will have interviews. Like every week I'll have like two or three interviews to different internships or like different entry level jobs somewhere to get in.

Starting point is 00:30:52 But I think in August when I had my interview with Scanline was like I was really, okay, this is like a hundred something interview, we cannot go wrong this time, you know. And it's pretty well. And I think because during uni we had this client kind of work. the university has a partnership, I guess, with like a real client.

Starting point is 00:31:15 And it was one of the projects that I was a producer on it. And for me, I think it as an experience. So whenever I have an interview, I say, okay, this is my experience as someone who tried as a junior. This is what I'm good at. This is my skills. I'm very open to learn, you know, all the usual. And it worked in the end. Was the client company from film industry?

Starting point is 00:31:38 No, it was the postal code museum. I never knew London has a postal code museum. Is it Postal Coat Museum? Yeah, the Postal Coat Museum. I never heard that. Yeah, I know. I never heard on it either until we got it. And they basically commissioned our course.

Starting point is 00:31:55 I think it was three short. I mean, initially they had one short movie, but then because we were like 20 something people in my class, we decided to work in groups and have a different small short movies. And they gave us the brief and then we had to like someone already had an idea. And then I was like, okay, if you're a director, let me be your producer because we already worked before. You know how I am organized and how skilled I am. And then he just slowly brought the people that I believe they will be, you know, fast enough. Because it was a three-week project where we had to pitch, build and, you know, work right in the post and just send it.

Starting point is 00:32:29 And we had to present it too at the end. So in the end, I think I had nine people in my team. And I really happy that people were like very organized and, you know, they kept it with my schedule on the time. So it was, I didn't have Shodgareed, so I had to use something else. I had Asana, which is a math. Yeah, it's like a management software. But it's very simple in a way, so it was very easy. And you don't need an account as an artist.

Starting point is 00:32:53 They will give my email and I'll send them, they have access to it to my account. And they will get the tasks and then they will have the deadline. So it's all their, and then whenever their task is done, I would just take it and they will see that it's done. It was very easy to track it. And because we were at uni most of the times, I will see them in person working on it. So it worked well. And that kind of, I think, helped me a lot during my interviews. Because this one in my movies were like the only experience that I actually can count on.

Starting point is 00:33:24 I guess it was something useful to put on your CV as well. Yeah, it was. And actually, what kind of project was it? Was it like something, let's say, campaign for that museum? or was it unrelated or what was it? There was a museum had an exhibition. Do they're like, I think it was 100 years or something like event. They had an admission and they commissioned they wanted something to put in the exhibition for people to look out beside like the exhibition floor.

Starting point is 00:33:54 So we went to the exhibition floor and see how big it is and you know all that. And then we just had like the director. My colleague had like a movie. mind they built the script and then I think they had the boards I don't remember if they had the boards repaired beforehand so it was just mostly trying to finish I think it was maybe less than a minute but first it looks a lot you know to do character design and then the patient and do motion graphic and you know compose everything and then you have music it was like a nine people job kind of and did they like the final result yeah they were very happy with it so

Starting point is 00:34:35 I know it was showcased for three months, I think, and now it's still on the website somewhere. Yeah, well, that sounds good. Coming back to your applications, where are you looking for jobs? Any specific websites? I think my best website, at least for me, production-wise, it's LinkedIn. The only reason why I'm saying it's LinkedIn is because sometimes producers or, like, directors, even talent, quiziness, share, will, like, rather than put up, you know, an official, like, on their website, the career openings, they would say, I need someone for like three weeks or like four or four.

Starting point is 00:35:07 So it's very like they need someone now. In this kind of posts, you won't find them anywhere just, you know, on the LinkedIn because they will post it because they know all the industry is there. So for me it was mostly trying. I think I follow most of the studios, I think, in London, pretty sure around the world, not that sure. It was just finding people that I wanted to work with. and I saw the approach they worked out and I'm like, okay, this person has a cool project they worked on.

Starting point is 00:35:36 Maybe, maybe, you know, I want to work with them in the future. I'm going to, you know, just connect with them, try to follow them, see what they plan to do. And then I will, like, talent people, like, or like recruiters to see, okay, do you have usually openings or if you have any opportunities for me in the future? Just kind of trying to keep, like, some kind of print of my existence somewhere. And when you are looking for a job, was it specifically for VFX? or was it in actually set as well or animation? When I was looking for a job, I was looking for a runner job mostly. I didn't even know how far I can go with my almost experience.

Starting point is 00:36:13 I was like, okay, runner is a good start. I don't mind. And then at some point I was reading about like production assisting. And I was like, okay, how much space I need to be for that one? And most of the people told me that it's like an entry level. So, you know, you don't have to worry. So I started looking for production assistant. animation, VFX, film, sets, kind of everything. And I think with film for me, because I worked as an

Starting point is 00:36:39 extra actor like on sets, so I kind of knew what OPAs on sets are doing because I would like talk with them sometimes. So I was like, okay, if I can manage to go on sets, I wouldn't be that bad because I worked on it. Yep. And I actually forgot to ask you before. What advice can you give from your university experience? I think it's don't take the teacher's word as it is. Try to learn by yourself too, because our industry is fast growing. It's too fast to keep up what our teachers know or what our like briefings or like curriculum has. Like you'd be surprised how much information changed right for the last like five years. So do your research alone. Be active with the people who talk in the industry. Try to reach out because a lot of you actually don't mind.

Starting point is 00:37:27 you asking them, like we asked other artists to help us, give us a feedback on our assignments. Don't limit yourself at just uni, you know, go and use the university discount. So many festivals for student discount. It's wild. It's good tips. Actually, you reminded me that recently someone actually reached out to me for some advice when it comes to job application or CV. And I was actually really flattered. It never happened. I was like, wow, someone is rich for advice to me.

Starting point is 00:37:58 So it was really nice. And I was happy to give advice. So I would also encourage people not to be afraid to ask someone for advice. Yeah. And what about some interview advice from you? I think it's like maybe before the interview, just search the company, just to see if you have projects that you really like from this company. Most of the times you may actually have person you like because most of the people are they work at the same projects. the shared resource.

Starting point is 00:38:27 And be very open, charismatic in your interviews. Like try to, you know, show kids that you really want to work with them because it might like your interview is one way, like it's your key, basically. Besides your CV, the interview is going to show how you're going to be working with them in the future, you know, the environment you're going to create. The thing is with the interviews, it's a two-way street. If they ask your question, at the end, you should ask questions too. If you have anything I'm sure about, you should ask them during that time.

Starting point is 00:38:55 because it's easier than, you know, writing an email and waiting for answers or like researching by yourself. So ask questions. Yeah, I agree. And you said you had plenty of applications and rejections, which I had as well, I'm not going to lie. But what was it that kept you still applying and not giving up? I think it's just thinking that I came to UK thinking, okay, big jump, a lot of debt. I need, you know, it's worse in a way. And just thinking, like, I really put a lot of effort into getting, wanting to be, you know, the amount of skills, the amount of work.

Starting point is 00:39:34 The amount of sleepless night I had to, you know, do for like to learn the skills I'm doing now. So I had to continue. It just felt like there is no way I'm going to just stop here. Yeah, that makes sense. And can we talk about your current job in Scanline? Can you introduce what is the role of PA? maybe some people know what it's like on a film set, but what is it like in VFX company?

Starting point is 00:40:00 For me, Phil FAA was very all around because when I joined Scanline, I was a PA for a department, so I was the PA for... Sorry, what department was it? Compositing. Ah, well, okay. So it was one of the biggest one in, I think, Europe,

Starting point is 00:40:17 and I was helping the head of the department and manager with different tasks, you know, trying to make their life easier. and I would like the way I would just learn how the pipeline works because both of them actually had time to teach me stuff. So I was very happy learning pipeline works, how you should interact with people, how short grid exists, you know, all the stages of like how the show is and the connection between department and the show and you know how the process works. And then I think at some point I was helping a lot in management and facility, you know, in HR. I was like learning the interview process. It was all around at the start.

Starting point is 00:40:56 For me, like, most of it, like an operational kind of stuff. I was learning from more department than just mine. And then as I dived into, like, in time, and I already knew how it works. I was slowly introduced to shows. So as a PA, I was mostly initially at the start helping the coordinator in compositing on the show, like the running rounds, assignments. And then I would like take notes where I could. And then I will start hosting meetings and then prepare like playlists.

Starting point is 00:41:25 And then as I continue going, I already know, like I would understand how the schedule works, the assignments. I would already know in advance. Okay, this is pending this dependency. You know, this is what I'm missing from a different department. So I'll get more and more independent as I go. And yeah. It's amazing to listen to this as someone who knows what is it like and who does that daily as well. So I'm like, well, wow, someone from my.

Starting point is 00:41:51 work. And can you try to introduce or explain what is it compositing? I guess in a very funny way is we are at the end of the line, like the end of the pipeline. So everything that comes every element from upstream, from light effects, whatever, compositing just takes everything and puts it together to have like a nice picture at the end you see on the screen. It's like a very interesting filter in a way. Is that, I mean, can it be like a bit stressful? department since you are by the end of the pipeline and it's maybe close to the deadline.

Starting point is 00:42:27 Does it like get stressful and rushed? I think from what I understand the sub from the coordinates the com department is one of the hardest one because it is at the end. But I feel like for me to some degree it's easy to understand because I had other departments I was kind of coordinating PAing. It felt like with compositing, I just know that everything comes in, you know, like you just take all everything you have from it and just put it in together. So for me, my brain makes sense. I don't need to think too much about what I'm missing because like an animation on a layout,

Starting point is 00:43:00 so many times I had to think, okay, was something playblasted wrong or, you know, was something like it wasn't quality checked or, you know, it's just so many smaller details that I'll forget or like something I need from layout to anime and the other way around. And it just, with comp, just everything comes in. Yeah, that's pretty sense. And are there any films that you worked on and that were released and you can mention them? I worked for a short bit on Black Adam. It was like closely at the end of it. I worked on the Flash. And was the next position that you want to reach?

Starting point is 00:43:34 Well, initially I was thinking to be a container as a coordinator because that's what I'm doing on the project I'm right now. I feel like I understand how it works and it makes sense. but I don't mind still being a PA. I feel like being a PA to some degree, I really like that I'm very close to the artists. I really enjoy talking with them. When I was PA on the department, I would like sometimes just call them

Starting point is 00:43:59 and talk for 20 minutes. I think working from home, it becomes depressive on both sides because you're very, like, you're very much alone. So maybe just talking and see how is everyone doing. It's nice to some degree because coordinator on the show I'm on, I have sometimes not.

Starting point is 00:44:16 time to like chat and see how everyone is doing. Well, it's just running after like, you know, schedules and see, okay, what am I missing, what I'm not. So I miss, you know, hey, how are you doing? Yeah, I understand. When you are checking with artists and just have a chat, maybe not as colleagues, but as a friend. Yeah. And considering your VFX experience, does it affect your experience of watching a film in a cinema?

Starting point is 00:44:43 It does. nothing to lie it does especially because I'm in Combe and we see we need to tech checks and

Starting point is 00:44:50 stuff especially when I had to take notes for the flash for tech checks at some point you start to see you know

Starting point is 00:44:56 every small detail and I remember I went to see I think Astorosity a while ago Oh from Wes Anderson

Starting point is 00:45:04 yeah I was with my friend we were just watching the movie and I was like do you feel like like the edge not you know

Starting point is 00:45:10 correctly she was like yeah I don't see it was like you started see the smallest things and you're like oh i cannot enjoy the movie anymore yeah i haven't seen the film but knowing west anderson style i would expect that it would be perfect you know with all the

Starting point is 00:45:28 colors angles and composition and everything i think he's one of my favorite filmmakers in general yeah i was gonna ask you have like a favorite film you can say both favorite film in general and favorite film when it comes to VFX? That's very hard. Or just pick a good one or something you saw recently. I think my favorite, favorite one that I would go back and watch it's like the Grand Budapest Hotel. Besides the cinematography, there's a lot of small, like, social, like a lot of information

Starting point is 00:46:05 about the war, the movement. It has a lot of, if you learn about how Wes Anderson wanted to make this movie, got the inspiration. There's actually a deeper story behind it. I'm a big fan of set photography in general. I really wish to get to the same level, you know. That's kind of me right there. And I think that movie achieves that for me in time because I love colors in general

Starting point is 00:46:29 and I love how he did everything like cinematography, color, all the, you know, symmetry, all these camera movements and camera the way they have to put them in the cuts. It's just for me, it's genius. and that's one of my favorite movies. And VFX-wise... Or maybe not like a favorite film, but the film where the VFX stuck in your mind. There was a movie, but it wasn't that popular.

Starting point is 00:46:55 It was something with these two people who were like ages in a space. Like the movie starts with like... Isn't it men in black? No, it's worth it. I did like men in black too. I'm not going to lie. I like it as well. I grew up with those movies, but there are VFX.

Starting point is 00:47:14 If I look at it now, it just was sometimes very uncanny, especially the old one, because there's like, you know, he looks very... But it was also ages ago. Yeah. It was the word where it starts with some aliens on a plant who gets completely eradicated, and then two space agents are on the mission, and one of them actually gets possessed by one of the aliens. And Rihanna is in it, too. She plays one of the metamorphous

Starting point is 00:47:40 Alien This story was all over the place I'm not going to lie The marketing was so bad done for that movie And it's inspired by a comic You know I have no idea But you made me really curious What kind of film is that

Starting point is 00:47:54 Like the comic is apparently very good It's just the way they marketed the movie Was very bad But the VFX for me It looked so good personally And I'm just thinking about the And you said Rehanna was really

Starting point is 00:48:07 Yeah, we had a question in the movie. Okay, I will Google later. But question I have to ask, then what's your favorite animation film? That's hard again, because I think the Iron Giant is my favorite one. Oh, Iron Giant. It's quite old one too, isn't it? It is, and it's one of the movies when actually people enjoyed working on it. Because I remember they didn't have a lot of budget,

Starting point is 00:48:33 but they had a lot of freedom to schedule the way the director wanted. So they actually had time to work and think, you know, how to build it. And I remember there's some like old interviews and documentaries about how they did it. And you can see that all the artists, you actually, they think about it. You know, they were like, okay, this is not working here. Let's take out this. You know, it's like they actually did enjoy working on it. And that for me is I want people to enjoy what are they working on, you know.

Starting point is 00:49:01 I don't want them to be off dead by the end. Yeah, to have a great experience from it. But I think that's what is my favorite, but, you know, to animation. But there's another one that I actually really like, even though it's very dumb. It's like Shrek, like the first one. No, I agree. I also grew up with this film and I loved it when I was a kid. I still like.

Starting point is 00:49:23 It's just the reason why it was made. It's funny in general. Because I don't know if you know, but basically they made it to destroy Disney's this fantastical image. Because Disney was selling the idea of fantasy, right? and DreamWorks, the guy who created DreamWorks was an ex-employee by Disney who didn't get a promotion for what I remember so he was very

Starting point is 00:49:44 Was this name Katzenberg maybe? Zembourg but I just remember I was really hating on Disney very hard They made Shrek with the idea to destroy this like fantastical thing but then Shrek became a very big movement

Starting point is 00:49:58 so I also read that there was competition between these two studios and I agree with you that I love Shrek too because it was funny it was something unique and like the characters dunky or even Shrek

Starting point is 00:50:15 were just amazed it yeah it was like very it's very random because if you watch you're like what's going on here what is this but it's just like at the other day it's very funny and I feel like they achieved what they wanted by destroying that fantastical image

Starting point is 00:50:31 because now you think about fantasy you think about Shrek and I even enjoy it. sequel, like the second strike. I think it was great as well. And then I like, especially the new Spider-Verse, the Sony made. And the second one is, wow, I watched it like three weeks ago and I am still impressed. I'm waiting for my art book. I just be-ordered.

Starting point is 00:50:51 I'm just waiting for it to come. I'm not going to lie, I haven't seen it yet. Oh, you need to see it. But I'm excited. We're excited. But the first one was so beautiful. I know. I think the first one created a big movement.

Starting point is 00:51:05 in general, like a shift in animation industry because right now, after the first one came, they are slowly integrating more. I know Intergalactic, though marketing for that album, and somehow it has the same, not aesthetic, but you know,

Starting point is 00:51:20 that kind of textury, patchy style, and then I think Nimona is out, which is in a same way. If I may do a little promotion, it's actually because Deneck worked on it, and I went to watch Entergalact, like take to cinema. They had like a pirate screening and such a beautiful film and the animation was just amazing. And then when the Niemona came out on Netflix, another very impressive

Starting point is 00:51:47 film, beautiful animation. So again, I agree with you. Yeah, I went to Anasi in France. I wanted to see it. But they really was booked. I was like, ah. How was it in Annesi? I've seen some people sharing that they were there or even the companies. was it? It was my first time going and it was one of the year when it was the highest number of participants. So it was very hard to manage to get to events because basically you get the ticket, but then you need to book the events you want to apply, you want to see. And then you have a limit. Like, it depends on your ticket. You get two to three events per day. So it's very hard to choose what do you want to watch because they're happening in multiple locations at the same time.

Starting point is 00:52:31 And then the amount of people, so that's somebody just book randomly and hope for the best, basically. But it was amazing. I saw people from all around the role and there were like so many communities. I know there was art warrior that is like, I think it's a community online for artists and then one of the London moderator

Starting point is 00:52:48 came to Annesia and we had like this painting session in like near the lake. Then I met many like directors and producers I met so many studios and artists that I just spoke with them online and I was like wow I see you in real life. Yeah it's like amazing. Just to

Starting point is 00:53:04 introduce it, it's animation festival, right? And does it happen every year in France, in Annesi? Yep. So this is one of the biggest animation festivals around the world. And it happens every year in France. And every year there's like a different country as a theme. So I think last year it was Switzerland. This year was Mexico. And then next year is Portugal, if I'm not wrong.

Starting point is 00:53:30 That for a whole week is just short movies, indie movies. movies, you're going to have, like, because there's competitions. You're going to see episodes from TV shows. You're going to see feature movies that are not online yet. And there's, like, talks, workshops, masterclasses. You can meet. I think this year, Gilo del Toro was there. I mean, he's there most of the time, but it just is very hard to get his talks

Starting point is 00:53:53 because he's just, I remember you was so long. It was like way. It was like, even if you wait in line, there was no way you're going to get in. There is no surprise. Even thinking about the Pinocchio, there's of motion one he did and other beautiful film worth watching. And do you know why is it actually happening in anything just out of interest? Actually, I had this question in my mind and I forgot to search it off.

Starting point is 00:54:17 But I'm just thinking generally France because France is like the heart of animation in a way. French has one of the oldest animation schools and then most of the animation, it's like French. If you look at the animation like shorts or like indies, you see like history wise are done in France. started from there and then it evolved in the whole Europe later on. That's a really big switch boy in Anasi. Yeah, we'll need to do the homework and have a look. Cool. As we are approaching the end of podcast,

Starting point is 00:54:48 is there some question I forgot to ask you or something you would like to share? If students are watching by the podcast, go to Anasi is like 80% cheaper. Like, if you have access to almost everything as a student, I was like, why they were doing about this three years ago? I guess just people going to festivals or like industry events is very important. If you start as soon as possible, because you won't be anxious later when you finish. You need to know how to start.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Yeah. And probably good for networking, right? Yeah. I think there is coming 8th, 9 September, there is like playgrounds that they have an event in London called In Motion. And the Lion Studio, Akro Studio is coming. I know James Baxter was like an animation legend is coming. There are so many people who are coming to it.

Starting point is 00:55:40 And I feel like if you're not a student, it costs more money. But if you're a student, you get it cheaper. So if you get a two days, go, enjoy. Because it's actually very fun. I personally like these events. And there are so many free online too. It's important to go. Yeah, that sounds like a good recommendation.

Starting point is 00:55:59 And do you want to promote yourself? or can people follow you somewhere? I feel like I don't have anything. I mean, you can follow me on Instagram or like, most on Instagram, actually, because I have my portfolio there, which is The Art of Sinists. It's like a very, okay, denim. And follow me on LinkedIn too or connect because I'm very open to help you. If there's like anything you're not sure about, I have many people who I help.

Starting point is 00:56:24 I don't mind doing it for free. It's like we're in together, basically. Just in the background, I quickly searched, what was that film with Brianna and wasn't it Valerian? Yeah, he's that one. Oh wow. I actually really enjoyed that film. It's from the French director Luke Besson, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:56:42 Oh my God, that was so cool. Really beautiful creatures. I think so. That was a great recommendation. It's like the effect is glorious on it. I loved it so much. Yeah, because I remember when it came out, I was excited from the trailer

Starting point is 00:56:57 because I like this type of sci-fi practice films from space such as Guardians of Galaxy and this was kind of similar. So I really enjoyed it. That was a good tip. And just when it comes to the links or followings, I will edit the show notes. So if someone wanted to follow you, they can find it in the show notes. Cool. I will just thank you very much for a time.

Starting point is 00:57:20 It was a pleasure to meet you. I was really happy to speak with someone from the same kind of background, from the same industry. and I will wish you good luck in your career. Yeah. So thank you and see you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to Produce Bye. Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast that, leave a review or send us your feedback.

Starting point is 00:57:45 For more information about the host, links from the episode and ways to connect with us, visit the show notes. If you know someone who would be an ideal guest for our podcast, please get in touch. Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - #29 - Fatma Rikabi Sukari: From Adverse Conditions in Animation to a Meaningful Path in VFX

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