Produced By - #7 - Tomás Miguel: Purpose and Mindset for the First Steps in the VFX Industry

Starting point is 00:00:02 Thomas Miguel, he is London-based Visual Effects graduate working as a customer support engineer at Foundry. Thomas left Portugal to pursue a VFX education in London. University told him the core skills of the VFX pipeline and he specialized in his favorite texturing. Becoming a texture artist was his career goal until Foundry, a creative software development company, offered him the opportunity to contribute to the industry standard texturing software called MAPTCHAI. called Mari. Before joining Foundry, he worked as a runner in a VFX powerhouse and shares this experience working towards in-house development. Throughout this episode, Thomas also discusses aligning your career with personal creative projects and other goals.

Starting point is 00:00:48 Join us to learn more about VFX, how Thomas made it from Portugal to career in London with no prior background and get inspired to overcome unexpected obstacles in your way. Enjoy. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Hello, Tomas, good to be here. How do you say your name? Thomas as well. Thomas, okay, awesome. Can you briefly introduce yourself?

Starting point is 00:01:17 Yeah, sure, briefly. So I'm a Tomas, I'm from Portugal, met it to London for university to study visual effects. And I'm interested in a bunch of different film-related stuff, just want to create cool visual stuff. So yeah, exploring a bunch of different things, exploring different parts of the industry and yes, in a good time so far

Starting point is 00:01:37 here in London. Let's maybe start with your beginning. Why did you decide to move to London in the first place? Or why did you think university in London? Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess in Versoval in Portugal, it seems to be a bit of romanticizing of London

Starting point is 00:01:53 somehow. Maybe you've seen the same as well. But yeah, obviously there's not that much of a film industry in Portugal, especially not visual effects. And back then I knew I wanted to do something visual with films I was unsure what I want the stability there was a bunch of values and goals in my mind in terms of where I want to go from here as a 17 year old and I found out about VFX and I was like it is greats I'm good with computers I'm good with

Starting point is 00:02:22 creative software and I can just sit down someone gives me something cool to do I do it and I send it over and I was like hell yeah so I just started looking around and London obviously has the most film industry, I would assume, from Europe. They don't want to go too far to get started, too far away. And yeah, in Portugal we have this thing called OK Student. It's a company that helps students go to the UK to study, so that was a big influence. And yeah, London, you know, there's like a lot of people to meet, a lot of culture, a lot of good music. And I just wanted to grow and learn about life, so here I am.

Starting point is 00:03:00 So looking back, was it a good decision to be? be climbed? Yes. I think in spite of all the tribulations along the way, I won't have chosen otherwise, because I am getting where I want to be. I'm growing how I want to grow, so I'm very glad to be here. Yeah, sounds good. And why did you pick the university you picked based on what? Well, based on this company called okay student, really, because as a 17 year old kids, you don't really know much about the world at all, really. So you just trust the grownups sometimes when it's time to trust the grownups. I remember having the interview with the person from there and finding them what I like and stuff.

Starting point is 00:03:43 And I think if I had ordered things slightly differently, I'll have ended up somewhere very different as well, because I was kind of between a film course and a VFX course. And the other thing I was into was just being the person creating the email. so like being on the camera and she kind of sent me some cameraman or like more being on sets kind of courses

Starting point is 00:04:07 but didn't appeal to me but if she had sads oh there's a thing called director of photography I'll live in hell yeah let's do that but she told me about visual effects and as I ended up at Middlesex she told me that was a course here it was in London which is something I was very interested in in terms of just being in that industry

Starting point is 00:04:25 and just exploring something with a lot to do in. A big city with a lot to do in. So that's how I ended up in a middle-section university in good old Handon. I must say that my journey is pretty much similar. There was also a company that helps students to go abroad. I didn't have any idea. So I kind of trusted people who have experience in this and very similar as you do. So something I can relate to for sure. Yeah, it's a plan. It's a leap of faith, right? Yeah. And it's a something. It's a leap of faith, right? Yeah, and as such coincidences that could have ended up completely differently, but in the end, I ended up like this and, yeah, I would say great mindset and what you said.

Starting point is 00:05:09 So how do you look back at the experience at university? Did you enjoy it? Did you learn a lot? Yeah, I very much enjoyed it, very much learned a lot, quite chaotic. I'd say, looking forward when you're first starting uni and coming to London, you're like, oh, that's. this is going to be extremely high grade. And it was in many ways, especially in the terms of the hardware and the facilities. But obviously, there's a lot of gaps in something like visual effects. It's hard to be able to, for a few teachers to be able to cover every part of it. So I think looking back, what I learned the most was to learn on my own, which I suppose is,

Starting point is 00:05:51 but uni is all about making something of yourself. with an other thing I didn't expect was for there to be a lot of people that were just, oh, these look cool. So here I am hanging out, hanging out, going to unit parties, you know, and I'm there like, I'm going to rule the world, you know. So it's really about what you make out of it. That's why I learned the most and how to learn on your own and how to connect with the right people and just be in the right circles and all those kind of things. Yeah. I would say that this again something I can relate to. The university can teach you something,

Starting point is 00:06:28 but then it's really about what you do in your free time, how proactive you are, you know, networking and kind of finding your way into the industry in advance and not waiting you graduate and film industry is waited for you or something. Exactly. I think something that helped me in my early days was the most overinflated teenager ego that was like you're going to go all,

Starting point is 00:06:54 the way so just you got this you know it's going to happen so just make it happen no matter what so yeah that's really helped at the start anyways then the ego's got to go i think it's kind of everyone in the first year and then over some time you find out that it doesn't really mean anything that you study that yeah in a way you're right the degree in the end doesn't mean so much it's about the portfolio and the people you know and just the actions you really take you Yeah, something else I've been to say. And especially if you consider how competitive the industry is, so it's actually very hard to succeed or find a career

Starting point is 00:07:33 or just stand out out of crowd and out of so many people. Yeah, for sure. I always try to be realistic and realize that for me to go from point A to point B doesn't seem that clear or that there's a pad set out for me. So I'm going to have to remove all the obstacles myself. So that's something I was focused on and just try to be worthy of whatever I'm trying to achieve. Yeah. And out of curiosity, how many students were there in your class in the first year?

Starting point is 00:08:05 In the comparative first year film? Yeah, a remote film at Middle Sacks was a couple hundred or something. When I started, I think there may be like 70. But the following year, I think they were like 120. And I would say the year after, there were probably even more. So it was getting more and more. That's weird. But okay.

Starting point is 00:08:28 Yeah, in my course, it was a new course as well. I was the second plus ever. Really? So the course was like newly started. Yeah. Yeah. So he made for the experience as well because we were kind of the guinea pigs. And it was nice as well because I got to be the student voice leader,

Starting point is 00:08:45 student learning assistants. And it's kind of help the course figure itself out. a little bit. But yes, in my course, I think we started with about 25 people. By the third year, we were something like 12, I think. And out of those, I think I could be wrong, but I think only me and two other guys, which from the start were obviously the most interested ones, are the only ones that are working in 3D or visual effects or something related to the course. Oh, that's not many out of those that started. Yeah, I'm sure the artists are still doing great things and all that, but yeah, that's a little eye-opener for those out there getting started.

Starting point is 00:09:28 Yeah. Do you think it's because, as we spoke before, it's so hard to get out there or didn't enjoy the course or it's about the people that they don't really put themselves out there or don't work hard? Yeah, I think visual effects and film and most creative industries, enterprises require, you. you to become your own brands. It's not like, okay, you're a lawyer or, okay, let's just a doctor. A doctor, you learn all the things as long as you memorize them and understand them, now you can go help people. And they're the great matters, the great event matters,

Starting point is 00:10:08 but everyone's kind of the same thing. There's obviously different specializations, but everyone's a doctor, everyone can do the same thing. While in visual effects, it's no one can't take. you, how to really become what you need to become. That's something you've got to figure out a bit on your own and specialize. And there's a lot of factors that go into it. You've got to know what the industry needs, what you want to do, what you have at your disposal.

Starting point is 00:10:37 So yeah, at the end of the day, I think a lot of people just go through the motions while other people are like, how do I, as I said, make myself worthwhile of this company's time or whatever I want to be doing. So yeah, I think it's really about what you're making of yourself. You've got to have something to show. You've got to have some specific skills, valuable skills. You're developing, showing off and showing that you have unique in some way, but also can get the stuff, the job done.

Starting point is 00:11:06 So also like fits into whatever job role you're aiming for. You know what I mean? Yes, yes. And can you briefly introduce the content of the course? because I wonder if it's like that in the beginning you are learning basics, then you picked specialization and what was like, you know, final work in the last year?

Starting point is 00:11:29 I'm curious. Yeah, of course. No, that's a good point. For visual effects, typically, and in my course, which I think now they're going to merge it with the game's course, but I think it's going to follow the same kind of structure

Starting point is 00:11:43 where in the first year, you kind of did your toes, in a bunch of different things, learned a bunch of different stuff, and just learn how to be a generalist, I suppose. And in our case, in the first year, the final project was remaking visual effects shot from a movie or something.

Starting point is 00:12:02 So I chose stranger things. It was just like a room with a guy freaking out, and then the room turns into a upside-down kind of environment. It was like interesting assignment. Yeah. Yes, good fun. and you get to play around and doesn't have to be perfect. So it's good.

Starting point is 00:12:21 The second year for us was making a creature and putting it into a live shot. So I just made a chimpanzee and put it hanging on a tree from the university. And on our third year, that's when you specialize and you just choose something that you want to explore and learn more about. And you do a feasibility study in the first semester where you do basically the project you want to do but at a smaller scale. So instead, for me, I wanted to focus on texturing and a bit of modeling. So I wanted to do a whole street in CG, just a normal street, but based on a specific one from Vietnam, that just look really cool.

Starting point is 00:13:03 So I did one building, basically. And you learn what the software you need to do, what the workflow looks like, and then you just apply it at the bigger scale. And there you go, you have portfolio, in theory. Honestly, that sounds interesting. It sounds like a fun of these projects. There wasn't a lot of exams or written papers. Assets, yes, sorry. Did you write any or not at all?

Starting point is 00:13:28 That was like one or two pretty year, short ones as well. Obviously, there's the final dissertation. But there was no exams, nothing else. It's pretty hands-on, which I really liked. I've never been the traditional school kind of guy. I have to admit that it sounds like you probably it quite well. If I was decided, I would go for it. Because it's...

Starting point is 00:13:49 Yeah. As long as you can make the most of it yourself, you can't just, you know, go with the flow. You better take, you know? Yeah. And did you also look development after a texturing? Yeah, yeah. They kind of go hand in hand. Typically, you model a 3D asset and then you texture it, you paints its surface to make it look photorealistic. And then once you have those images done, you bring it into a renderer where you basically render creates the highest quality

Starting point is 00:14:22 final image that looks realistic. When you're applying those images from texturing into the shader in rendering, that's basically making it look right in the final render, to make it look accurate in terms of how light works and stuff. So yeah, that goes hand in hand. So it's something I explored as well. And what were, for example, some other disciplines that you could have. specialize in. I think I always went towards staff string. That was when it came to the third year,

Starting point is 00:14:51 or end of second year, and I was thinking, what do I want to focus my efforts on? What is going to get me to where I want to be? It was the real question. Going to get me to a place where I'm growing in an interesting company, making cool stuff, making good money, obviously, all those things, and that I'm obviously enjoying myself. So what kind of picks off all those boxes? It actually made a lot of sense for me back then because those other things like creatures, creating creatures. It's obviously potentially the coolest thing you can do in visual effects, creating the characters, right? But precisely because of that, it's extremely competitive. You need to know a lot about anatomy so you should know how to draw.

Starting point is 00:15:32 You don't need to, but it helps if you know how to draw, and you need to know pretty specific software like Z-brush, and it's just a rabbit hole. Whilst in factoring, I felt already way more. comfortable and that I could get started as a junior or something like characters. Deep companies don't tend to hire juniors to create the characters, which, you know, a bit sad, but it sounds reasonable, actually. So I went more towards what made the most sense for me, because before university, I also did a vocational course, I guess is what you'd call it.

Starting point is 00:16:07 So the last three years of mandatory school, year 10 to 12, instead of just being, regular maths and, you know, Orchkees and history. You do that and dear half of the day, you're learning an actual job, and for me it was digital arts and mediums, is what you call it, I suppose. So I was doing everything from photography, video editing, creating some 3D and visual effects, sound engineering, all these different things. So I was very visual and very capable of creating images. So I wanted to blend that with the 3D side of it. So, it's actually a middle sense for me. Yeah, that's understandable. And for example, whether also disciplines such as anim, FX, comp, environment and like this? Do you mean other parts of the effects? Yes, like

Starting point is 00:16:56 other parts of the pipeline. Also like other options that you could pick in the 30. Oh, sure, yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah, there's endless different departments, really, and you've got to more or less focus, decide what you want, realize what you want in the first or early second year. But there's other things like compositing, where you're doing the 2D side of things. So you're editing video, not just cutting the video, but manipulating the video to change things about it. That can be very long, very interesting, but very long. Need patience. Yeah, need patience and be extremely precise.

Starting point is 00:17:34 One else, there's more technical things in 3D, obviously, like rigging, like creating the muscles and the skeleton of the characters. And that's obviously, there's no pretty software that you click a few buttons and it does that for you. You got to go get in there and, you know, code a bit and paint a bit and break it a bit and fix it again. So not, didn't want something too technical. What else can I think about? It's understandable to me. You got a good reason in why you picked what you picked.

Starting point is 00:18:07 When it comes to software, can you see what software we're using or were you learning with? Yeah, we had pretty much a lot to choose from. They tended to lead the stories of things we could get for free as students, so we could use them from home as well. It's a bit of a tricky decision to make there because we ended up missing out on some important stuff, I think. But obviously, we learned a lot of Maya was our main software. In terms of the main 3D environment we were working it,

Starting point is 00:18:37 the 3D full package we were working it with. We learned a lot of Ludiini in our second year. In terms of texturing, they didn't focus on that too much, so we didn't learn Mari or substance. As part of the course, I learned on my own third year, but it might be different now. So those were our main ones, also mud box, and a bunch of other things that you just got to be familiar with, but Photoshop, After Effects, Nook, there was a lot of nook, obviously. So, yeah, that's about it. A lot of different softwares, but it's nice because you can, you know, as with this question, the previous, one, you can really choose something that you enjoy from a lot of different types of jobs inside

Starting point is 00:19:19 VFX. Yeah, like from those you mentioned, it sounds good that those are kind of industry standards, aren't they? Maya, zebra substance painter and stuff like that. Yeah, for sure. It's tricky with some stuff, like substance, I would say, is the kind of pretty popular in university courses because it's just easy to get started and to slap some stuff on it and make it look good.

Starting point is 00:19:43 But I heard a lot of people saying that recruiters can tell very easily that that was done in an hour or whatever. And the students similarly understand the concepts of texturing behind it. So they couldn't really say, oh, he's ready for the job, even though it looks pretty great. He finds a final asset. Or something like Mari, which is the main thing I'm working on right now, in my current job at the foundry.

Starting point is 00:20:08 Isn't Mari developed by Veta? Or it's different world? That was, I believe that was originally where it was created. And then he got brought over to the foundry. Yeah, yeah. Because I heard that VETA, the VFX company from New Zealand, they kind of developed it. And then it was so good and so popular that the industry started using them.

Starting point is 00:20:32 Yeah, it's brought on a lot of new and awesome things. I think it was the first software to allow to paint in 3D. So you're seeing your 3D assets and you're using a paintbrush on it. Whereas before, you had to paint on the UVs for those that aren't familiar. Say you have a box, 3D box, a cube, and you want to paint on it. You have to turn that in flat to the image. So you just imagine undoing a carton box to be flat. And that's why you guess if people will have to paint on that instead of seeing the actual 3D thing.

Starting point is 00:21:10 I don't know that was the main advantage at the time, but it's still growing and it still is the industry standards. So it's, I guess, easier now with Mari than it was before? Yeah, for sure. But as well, I was going to say, it's still a trickier to get started on, I would say, that self and spainter. It doesn't come with so many pre-made materials. You can just throw into your character and all that, like a skin default or whatever. So people tend to shy away from it, but it's really used the most powerful thing.

Starting point is 00:21:36 and I think that if you're a texture artist getting started and you never had a job in the industry and you say, you know, Mari, and you can really show it, then you're like so far ahead. Then the substance people, they can create cool stuff and you can really be really good in stuff like substance and make that really worth your while and make it employable. But that is my humble opinion.

Starting point is 00:22:02 No, it makes sense. Can you say how you started planning your way into the industry because it's something that I think it's not easy some people underestimate but from my experience i know how hard was it so how did you start planning starts of your care in the 30 year all right good questions uh i think that's really the interesting stuff that people are curious about so yeah obviously for visual effects you need to have a portfolio it's not about your cp so much or uh your grades that you need it's about the stuff you have to have you've got to you've created and how does it look and is it created in a way that the visual effects studio is created

Starting point is 00:22:43 and it's not just is it a really epic monster like that's not necessarily what they're interested in seeing i'll say what they're most interested in seeing is basic foundational stuff done extremely well so if you're like an asset's a 3D assets creator so you model and texture if you do a hand extremely well. And you have a picture of the hand that you based it on, like a photo of your hand and the 3D render of the photo he created side to side and they look great.

Starting point is 00:23:14 That's how you get a job, I would say, if you're like doing the portfolio approach. There's many other approaches, though, and that's sort of what I did. There's many other things that can help you get into the industry. They kind of got a finesse your way in with a variety of approaches is more what I did.

Starting point is 00:23:32 And in terms of my personal experience. As all the things worth mentioning is never going to be clean, straightforward narrative, as you expect. I was like, oh, I'm going to finish my third year, apply, keep applying, and I have a job. And COVID and a bunch of things. Yeah, and during COVID and during third year, I started developing chronic pain in my wrists, in my hands. Was it from working too much with mouse and computer or what was that was? That was the thing that aggravated it. For me in my case, it's called joint hypermobility, so they just tend to be weaker overall, so they just need to be strengthened. That's it. I had to do hand workouts. When

Starting point is 00:24:15 something hurts, you stop using it, usually, in your body. You just pivot a break. In my case, that was the wrong thing to do, because it's just getting weaker, so it's just starting to hurt more. And yeah, the public health care in London, in terms of musco-skeletal problems, can be not very helpful. It just took me a long time to figure that out. So you've got to be aware that you're going to have to take sidetracks and go to something else for a while and just grow in other ways because you've got to have all your foundations ready to go if you're going to attack this industry or whatever, you know. If you really want to get in, you want to make something of yourself, you've got to take care of yourself as well. Just a quick one. If you enjoy our podcast, please give us a

Starting point is 00:25:01 review on your favorite podcast app, subscribe or share it with your friends. For more information, visit the show notes. Thank you and back to the show. So can you continue? It was with your hand. Yeah, so when things are going to happen to you that you've got to figure out besides just your career, obviously, and about your career as well, it's just never going to be straightforward. So yeah, regarding my wrists, my hands, it just took me a while to figure out the way to fix that problem. And I have. to put all my focus on that and put the effects and computers aside for a while because I calling me on the computers. My hands hurt, obviously. So people take care of that. So is it okay now?

Starting point is 00:25:41 Yes, it's manageable now. I guess not 100%. Not at the moment because aside is your job, but I just got to put the time into it. And there's a lot of things going to have to put your time into if you want to make the most out of your experiences in the industry. Other things you wouldn't expect, such as your health, surprisingly. At the teenager, you don't really think about your health that much. You're like, I'm immortal. You just go. But then it catches up to you. So yeah, that was one thing that I had to take a break for about over a year. And then I said, I worked on my portfolio again. And I was like, okay, I'm going to take the traditional way of having a portfolio and just apply, blah, blah, I want to go to a big studio, make some cool stuff. So I've got to have something cool to

Starting point is 00:26:25 show. And now just doing that while working side jobs, part-time jobs kind of thing. But there's other factors that help you pay into the industry, such as who you know. Many people say it's not what you know, it's who you know. And there's some truth to that obviously because it's not like you're having things on a silver platter, but you're just way more informed and, you know, someone can say something nice about you at the company or whatever. So it's really important to just make those connections and you know when i say make those connections it's not going to fancy events and talking to all these people it's being nice to everyone around you really not just pass by say hey how are you the morning whatever and that makes the whole difference yeah i was just catching up with a

Starting point is 00:27:10 friend and from me you need from visual effects and he was a runner and he told me hey we need runners right now quite desperately you will definitely get in you have everything you need you know there's always there's some opportunities in here for you. So come on over. So that was how I first, I bought a job. And that's how I first started. But all inside, I got into the industry yet, because you're not being an artist on the computer.

Starting point is 00:27:38 It's more on your feet kind of job. Just you're more on the facilities team, taking care of the building, setting up meetings, those kind of things, more than you're like being parts of the production of the effects, being creative or anything of that sort. still very valuable, obviously. But how I actually got

Starting point is 00:27:57 desk job, which is what I was aiming for in visual effects, was, well, we can go more deeply into that, but as a runner, really trying to create a stronger development program for us. And that was very massive, very political, all this kind of different things. But it was really cool because we really got to push for something in a big company and try to create something awesome for us and for everyone who comes afterwards.

Starting point is 00:28:25 Unfortunately, it didn't quite work out in that way, but we got to meet a lot of people and get a lot of connections and learn a lot of actual VFX in the meantime in terms of mentorship and people helping us out and things like that. I did get offered a job there that I applied for at this company in data services, which wasn't... I would learn a lot of things and it was a pretty decent job, but it wasn't quite as valuable.

Starting point is 00:28:52 as orate tanks. So again, how I actually went into the industry was by talking to a lot of people telling them what was going on, my situation. I can't be at this company for much longer because the contract was finishing and they don't ever knew it, not just for me, but for everyone else in my team. And I was just talking with a friend of mine from university, actually. And again, he said, hey man, there's actually this position at my company, which is customer supports engineer, so you will be helping visual effects studios and artists figure out their problems they're having in Maori, which is the texturing software that I was interesting in learning more about and I had been using for the past year or so. So you just got to learn a lot about this

Starting point is 00:29:36 software. You get to help people, get to know some people and really go deep into texturing. And I think you've got in because you have all the skills that it takes from being a runner, from having all this more customer-oriented jobs and from how you do VFX. So again, I applied for that and I got in, so I'm at Foundry now, and I'm very happy here. And that's the short version of how I got into the industry. So does it mean you are helping to develop the program? Partially.

Starting point is 00:30:07 I'm not a software engineer. It's more about the current use of the experience of the customers, like studios. How they're trying to use the software, what's not working. are bugs, do they have any feature requests, things they would like to see in the future? And I communicate that to the software engineers. So I'm more the bridge between the customers and the engineering team. So is it something that you plan to continue doing, or is still like your end goal become texture artist or VFX artist in general?

Starting point is 00:30:40 Yeah, it's funny because I didn't know this job existed in the first place. And it's pretty cool. So, you know, you've got to keep an open mind and explore different kinds of opportunities and see how they align with your final goal, whatever that is. For me, I just, I'm trying to create the least resistance between the present moment and between the future me that is happy and growing and has all the good foundations of life, like a healthy body, healthy mind, you know, good connections, good people around me, and that I'm able to have a creative output.

Starting point is 00:31:15 I'm able to put some cool stuff out there. So, you know, this actually works really well for me. And there's a lot of potential to develop at the company with any customer support or other things like being product specialists, for example, you're just really getting to explore the software and show it for people the best way of using them, things like that. My main goal has been for a long time being a texture artist because that aligned with my goals of just having a stability

Starting point is 00:31:42 and being able to create some cool stuff. But this also offers me a lot of different opportunities towards a happy future. So I am very down to stay here for a very long time doing this kind of jobs at this company, which is absolutely lovely. So yeah, that's where I'm at. Honestly, I don't know how much about it company.

Starting point is 00:32:02 So does it also develop or develop other popular softwares or is it focused only on Mari? So it's called Foundry. They do Nuke as well, which is the main compositing software in visual effects and for anything, any other compositing needs. They do a bunch of other stuff like Modo is there and a full feature 3D package.

Starting point is 00:32:24 Katana, which is for lightning, look-dab and rendering, especially at big studios at complex pipelines and a bunch of photos. So yeah, it's not a big software companies, if not the biggest necessarily. Not sure, actually. But something like Adobe, for example, just smaller?

Starting point is 00:32:42 Yeah. Yeah. It's a Obe, but it's more focused in VFX, for example. Is it London based? Yeah, I started in London. It's pretty much on the world right now,

Starting point is 00:32:51 but the headquarters are still here. So it's good to be here once again. Yeah, glad to hear that. That you enjoy it. And sounds good. Yeah, it's awesome. And as we discussed VFX quite a lot, can you try briefly to describe VFX pipeline?

Starting point is 00:33:06 Maybe for someone, if it doesn't know anything about VFX, to get an idea what we are talking about, All right, here I go. The classic. Like, you know, in general, something not too complex. Of course. So, yeah, like, I didn't know the effects existed until I started on it.

Starting point is 00:33:23 So it's a very valid question. So visual effects is everything that you see on a movie, a show, an advertisement that isn't real, that wasn't captured on the camera. That's the simplest way possible to describe it. that came in, for example, the director is like, they shot the movie, they can't go back to shooting again, and he's like, you know what, I don't like the sky, let's change the sky. But there's actors in front of the sky and trees and stuff, so someone needs to go frame by frame and paint out the sky so they can replace with something else. It's called rotoscoping. There's 3D creatures, monster, there's magic. There's all these things that happen on the computer. They are not made on set. That's what visual effects. is and it takes a lot more people and the skill and technical prowess than you'd maybe expect. It's really an awesome and complex industry. But at the same time, it's a lot of people, but also quite small.

Starting point is 00:34:22 It's great. Can you say some your favorite VFX, either in specific films or specific assets, what you like, what you find interesting, impressive? Yeah, I would say to be honest, someone who's into VFX is expecting to be. into the most fleshy and complex and crazy kind of thing. Like Marvel, obviously, is a good example. But I like when visual effects is more invisible, unused discreetly.

Starting point is 00:34:51 It could be like the whole sequence, the whole shot you're looking at is fully 3D, fully fake, but it's very subdued like a tune of the I come out in. A year ago, a couple years ago. It's a beautiful use of it, I would say. I'll say my favorite VFX is the VFX that's only used why it needs to be used. That is not just trying to take the show and create something. It can have awesome results as well sometimes.

Starting point is 00:35:19 Like, what's that movie? Everything happening everywhere all at once. The Oscar winner. Yeah, Oscar winner. That's extremely hilarious use of VFX and really well used. I think my favorite VFX, I would say, is the one that are well-directed, well-used, which will taught out with the director of photography. What we actually want to do?

Starting point is 00:35:40 It shouldn't be just a cop-out, just an easier way of adding more control. I think it's about, can this help us create something more beautiful? And something like June is one of my favorite examples, because it's just so discreet and mature. But at the same time, it requires so much effort and skill from the visual effects artists. Yeah, I can only agree. I went to cinema to watch it, and it was so beautiful. amazing film. Definitely worth watching on a big screen.

Starting point is 00:36:10 Oh, hell yeah. I'm going for number two this year. Yeah, looking for it as well. And have you watched Avatar, second one, because it just won the Academy World? Heavy Watched? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, of course I went to watching the cinema. I wouldn't be able to call myself a VFX artist. It was beautiful, wasn't it? It was beautiful and extremely realistic and very well used VFX, very smart, how it was done.

Starting point is 00:36:34 You know, there was, I didn't research it too much, but I think I heard that there was quite a few shows that you thought were CG avatars, characters, but it was just people painted blue, you know, like real people. So that's really smart. But it's one of those tricky things, because it's a beautiful movie, it's just visual effects prowess is amazing, but the plot is the most American standard thing possible you could think of. Is it worth it?

Starting point is 00:37:04 If you're trying to make money, if you're trying to feel something, it's like, it was great, regardless, very enjoyable. You know, you're so emotes to it, but it felt if it's empty at times, and I think that's the trap that people fall for very easily

Starting point is 00:37:19 of having something that looks so realistic, but it's fake. And it's like, this is going to, this is so worthy, this is so valuable. But it's not the main thing when it comes to making it necessarily, you know.

Starting point is 00:37:34 A lot more to consider. But it seems like it worked if you look at the box office. Yep, yep, and isn't that a problem? Not a problem necessarily. I'm very glad it exists. But everything comes on to money in the end. And there's something we always need to take into consideration.

Starting point is 00:37:52 Whatever industry you're in, it's going to happen in. And yeah, because, you know, people get into this industry because you tell me what you think, but people just want to make cool images. That's it. That's why you get in. You want to make something that looks great that feeds your teenager, edgy soul, and that's it. And it can be very easy to get pulled and take a step back.

Starting point is 00:38:17 You know, you know you want to do this and you want to be part of something great. It's very easy to get pulled into a very tiny piece of that great tank where you are creating something awesome, but it's like someone else is something awesome when you start having so much creative input on so I think that's something people need to consider how do you want to

Starting point is 00:38:39 if you're really passionate about movies and that's why you're getting in okay when or how are you going to have that creative output when I're going to have something that you're proud of and it's what you wanted to create you know what I mean yeah you tell me I was going to say that I understand what you're saying but I think it's like a part of bigger picture if you look at

Starting point is 00:39:00 the whole film. There are so many people working on it, so many variables and such a big and complex project. I think you as artist, you get your job. You understandably cannot really pick what you're going to work on. I think you should really try to do your best. And hell yeah. Movie may not be, you know, the best one in the end. But still your asset can be like the best one out of the movie and the one who appreciates it. And I would say regular people, they, probably will not appreciate it because obviously your goal is to make it realistic so they don't really notice but then it's about you and you know that you did your best your asset looked great and like you did what you cooled and the rest you don't really have influence over it so

Starting point is 00:39:46 tricky yeah 100% and uh i will still be like to have my credits on a movie on yeah definitely for no good reason it's just come on gotta fit my ego come on everyone wants that or you know at least Once in a line, just sit in a cinema and see your name when the credits roll. Yeah, sit down on. Then you can take the box. Yeah, exactly. On LinkedIn, move on. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:13 Get a house in the Bahamas. And what about some of your favorite TV series? Have you got some? Either when it comes to VFX or not VFX. I would say my favorite piece of visual media ever is this cartoon called Avatar the last airbender. I've never seen that, but I heard about it. Well, I highly recommend it. I mean, Netflix is making an adaptation right now, which might be worth watching. But I think there's a lot to be learned in there in terms of how it can make piece of entertainment, a more V or whatever you want

Starting point is 00:40:47 to call it. And why I like it, there's just so many elements. There's the elements, obviously, like people are bending the elements, like fire, water, air, earths. And people are fighting using that and that's just such a visually stunning thing there's so many opportunities for you especially something like fire will affect the lightning in the scene so you can create

Starting point is 00:41:10 really beautiful stuff especially if there's people with different colors of fire and a thing like red or blue and just great shots and it's just it's just wholesome to watch it because there's a lot of traveling and exploring and it's not as crazy as you expect on a kid's show

Starting point is 00:41:26 it's more you just sit down and you're going through this journey with this group of people and, you know, the characters, it's a kind of a fighting kind of cartoon, you know, like Naruto or whatever, but the characters don't look all jacked up with all these fancy outfits. They're just kids, you know, like trying to do their best. So it has this kind of subdued look while also looking awesome at the right times and having a great plot. I think it just teaches you a lot in terms of what's a good piece of art, really, and especially this kind of art we're trying to create. That's part of the film industry.

Starting point is 00:42:02 Are still new episodes coming out, or is it finished? So, yeah, this was made in like 2004 or something. It was like three seasons. There was a sequel, also a TV show for a while. And now they're picking back up and they're going to make a few series and a few movies animated. And there's also the Netflix adaptation, live adaptation, coming out. So there's going to be a lot of value coming out of that

Starting point is 00:42:27 There's a lot of traditional people involved So I'm very excited to see what's coming But it's still going to take a little while And if I'm not wrong Isn't there also film From here maybe 2005 from M-9? We don't talk about that I was going to say that

Starting point is 00:42:43 I think it was a flop Yeah I mean She will learn a lesson on what not to do By all means, go watch it After you watch the cartoon because it's so underwhelming. I honestly I don't remember it. I think I watched it

Starting point is 00:42:59 years ago, but what's the reason that it's not really worth watching? Well, you know, I think I watched the whole thing also 10 years ago or something, and 3 years ago or something, I was like, I'm going to give it another try, and I stopped half an hour in or something because, you know, I don't think you're ready to compare it to the cartoon, and you don't need to know

Starting point is 00:43:20 the cartoon in order to feel this, but more I remember it just felt very mechanical. And like, I don't know, like a cheap action Asian movie. Think of that aesthetic. It was American, but I think you get what I mean. He was a bit soulless. And then there was, yeah, like, the main reason people watch it is a sense of journey, adventure. And then the fighting with the elements, there was such beautiful animation being created there and just ideas and just,

Starting point is 00:43:53 ways of fighting and how it relates to characters because, you know, if you're fire, you're killing it from anger. If you're like, your thing is air, you're like, you try to evade a lot and be light on your feet and move around and just deflect your enemy's attacks and use them against him. Well, there's more water. But you know what I mean? There's a, yeah, there's a whole story that goes with it. The moment I stopped last time, watching when I closed the movie, was when there's this kind of fight scene with like a lot of different people. It's like the oppressed and the oppressors kind of thing and the oppressor rebelling. And there's five guys.

Starting point is 00:44:31 They're like earth benders so they move rocks and they throw them around and they can be like really punchy and dynamic and it's like really awesome to see. And you just see them making all these karate kind of moves and going like, I'll plan with them together and they're about to throw something and you just see like a medium-sized rock slowly moving in the air. And you're like, okay, there's nothing here for me. I think that's a great example. And I think the effects are pretty recent,

Starting point is 00:45:00 but a good example of what not to do. Yeah, it's something we don't probably recommend to watch. I think actually I probably watch it just because I don't really know the series as much as you do, but I think I watched it maybe just because of the director, you know, that he's famous. I'm not saying that, you know, some of his films are good, somewhere a bit worse but think I was

Starting point is 00:45:20 curious and wanted to watch it because of him. Yeah and yeah probably wasn't really worth it but anyway what about the assets have you got like a favorite or some super cool asset that you would want to work on for example

Starting point is 00:45:36 something from one of your favorite films or something yeah I'll say that if I were to be an artist again will be the Netflix adaptation of Avatar not to a press the same button but it really is if it does end up being good and you know they're going to be making a few seasons so it's going to be

Starting point is 00:45:52 produced for a few years I would like to get around to being a part of that at some point like just making the worlds and the characters there's a lot of animals that are like a mix of different animals so it looks really interesting

Starting point is 00:46:06 and just the building is the architecture is really beautiful stuff or you know something like tune where it's pretty simple but elegant, you know? Just something where you can like really put like really make something special

Starting point is 00:46:22 out of it, I would say, rather than just follow reference necessarily. Yes, something where you can use also a bit of your own creativity, I guess. Yeah, where there's a brief, there's something you better achieve that the director wants but how you communicate that is a little bit more up to you. Yeah, and especially if it's part of such a great film

Starting point is 00:46:42 as June. Yeah. Sounds like a dream. project, I would say. Yeah, it would be pretty cool. But again, my current position, which is helping to create the software that then goes into making all this cool stuff. If I can make these as effortless and as fun for the artist as possible, that's also a dream

Starting point is 00:47:04 come true because then you can see the results of your efforts as well. So many, many movies. Yeah, makes sense. Because everyone's using that software. I know you mentioned, I think, Substance Painter, but it's a lot of, you mentioned, I think, Substance Painter, but is there like a software is a big competitor of the one that you are working on?

Starting point is 00:47:20 Yeah, I'd say the substance package is the main competitor from Agasta, Mari. I think it depends on the industries, but in visual effects, Murray has a very strong grip because it's just extremely powerful. In terms of how much data it can handle, how big the asset,

Starting point is 00:47:38 how high quality, how much resolution, it's just, there's something like it. Is it because you work there or is it objective opinion? It's subjective opinion. And I started with substance. That's how I first found texturing. And it certainly has its advantages.

Starting point is 00:47:54 I was doing that for a few years. And when I moved to Mari, I was like, he's not as fun. It felt very obscure and very technical. But once you get the hang of it, it's so much better. It's so much power control and hour and create new things. He called the same boxes that substance takes, obviously. But yeah, that's what I'm focusing on for sure of it or the future. And towards the learning curve, like, is it difficult to learn it?

Starting point is 00:48:19 Is it same as the other softwares? Because I assume it takes time and patience to learn it. All of them are like that in visual effects. All of them takes time and they're temperamental and they have history. So you've got to treat it in a special way somehow. You know, don't take that box ever. Don't do this. If you're trying to do that, it's like, it's lore.

Starting point is 00:48:41 There's a lot of lore to these soft words. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I'll say for Mari, it is tricky when you start. But doable, need to be patient, need to keep learning, and I guess they opened that it will never be perfect because there's always something to learn, I guess. Exactly. And nowadays you can learn anything for free, really, online. There's all the stuff you need to get started. And I think for Mario, it is as long you keep exploring and trying new things,

Starting point is 00:49:07 even end up with a really cool experience and portfolio and skill. And you said that when it comes to VFX industries So what other industries is it being used to games? Yeah, games, product design, you know, people making clothes and stuff I mean, it's picking up, right? There's a lot of things that used to be done by hand that are, you know, on the computer now. Fashion is a big example, obviously.

Starting point is 00:49:31 So is it to iterate on the computer, obviously, because you can have, you know, one dress, but then apply as many different textures and patterns and things to it within an hour on the computer and show that to the people who makes a decision, you know. And they're like, I want this, but with these tweets and stuff and okay, now you actually make the dress in reality. You save so many materials, you know, like lots, cotton,

Starting point is 00:49:57 all these things that I need to waste them in terms of the money and just the environment itself. And there's things like the metaphors, something that's going to ever pick up. But there's a different nature, isn't it? No. Not for me. I'm an old timer, I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:50:12 We have a whole reality already. You need a second one? Yeah, like escape or something. Yeah, it obviously has its advantages here and there, but nah. I think you lose more than you win, B.R. I'll say. Do you actually know or do you need to know some coding to work with that software? No, with any of these softwares not really, for the most part, some specific jobs like rigging, or effect, you know, like making fire and stuff.

Starting point is 00:50:43 Yeah, a little, you got to know some stuff. And obviously, if you know it, you can put it to use in a lot of interesting ways, make it more powerful. But no, which is cool. Yeah, I agree. Coding always sounded scary for me. Yeah, daunting. But it will be impressive if you knew.

Starting point is 00:50:58 I'm working on it. So I was going to suggest to finish this and we can do second part at some point in the future if we're interested. Yeah, I'm very much up for it. And yeah, I would love to talk more about hobbies and, you know, creativity. And also a bit more about how, because I gave the short version, but, you know, things you can do to help your ideas in terms of getting into the industry and all that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely helpful.

Starting point is 00:51:26 And something that I would appreciate if I was starting again. Yeah. Bit to discuss it next time, yeah. That's awesome, though. So thank you very much. And I'll just in forward to next part. It's a man. I hope the next thing you well as well.

Starting point is 00:51:44 Thank you for listening to Produce Bye. Subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast app, leave a review or send us your feedback. For more information about the host, links from the episode and ways to connect with us, visit the show notes. If you know someone who would be an ideal guest for our podcast, please get in touch. Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - #7 - Tomás Miguel: Purpose and Mindset for the First Steps in the VFX Industry

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