AI-Driven Marketing: The Power of Visuals That Sell | #85: Rory Flynn
00:00My wife was like, you have to do this.This could be the turning point.I was like, all right.So I did it.And I get up there and I just let it all out.And I started talking about it.And my presentation was super bold and visual, like lots of colors.Something different that you haven't really seen from a stage presentation before.
00:16It wasn't like a PowerPoint.It was like, here's neon color, neon color face tattoos and stuff like that.And I could see people's faces in the crowd.And it was just like, as I'm going through it, I could also see that none of them had everlooked at this before. They were just like, they maybe heard about it. They hadn't really seen it.And I'm presenting it as if, you know, as if you guys should be using this in the business,how it's all already been structured, how we put it in there, how we've utilized it. I gotswarmed after I got off the stage. People were like, what the hell was that? And they're like,
00:48you've done, you've already have this in the business. You're using this like every day. I'm like,yeah, for a lot of clients. They're like, Jesus. It just exploded from there. That's when I knewthat I was like, we're pretty far ahead.Before we dive into today's episode,please hit that subscribe button.Your support helps us growand inspire more people on their journeys.Thank you.
01:10Hello, Rory.Thank you for Jinn of today.And welcome to the show.Thanks, man.Appreciate you having me on.I'm excited to chat a little bit of this stuffand hopefully we can get into some cool stuff.Some juicy stuff.
01:22Yeah.So for those who don't know you, Rory,can you please introduce yourself?Yeah, so my name is Roy Flynn. I am the founder of systematic AI. We are essentially what I like to call an operational AI company, meaning that we look into people's businesses. We find holes and then we plug those holes with conventional tools. So, you know, really do a lot of things within the, you know, corporate training space. I create a lot of content in regards to how, you know, team, marketing teams, specifically creative teams can utilize AI tools and inject this stuff into their workflow. A lot of it is for, you know, internal processes, move.moving things along, expanding communication, you know, rather than replacing people with justAI tools.It's how do we enhance our workforce to just make things easier, a little bit better.So that's kind of where, you know, I say we also do some done for you creative, depending
02:10on what medium that's for, you know, but, you know, overall, didn't expect to be here.This is just kind of where things landed at the current moment.But, yeah, man, it's kind of, that's kind of the deal on that.So just as you said that, that you weren't expecting it.What is it actually that you were doing before diving into the world of AI?Yeah, so my, I'd say my career, man.It's pretty nonlinear.I think that's the best way to put it.
02:34It makes it pretty exciting, does it?Yeah, yeah.I mean, I've always been sort of like a mercenary sort of cavalier in terms of what I've been doing.It started off in product intellectual property licensing, which I don't think many people do that.But funny that I somehow ended up in AI.What, you know, more so on the marketing side of things,digital marketing, e-commerce, things of that nature, really have a heavy background in emailmarketing, paid media up until this point. But that's kind of where it all started, was trying
03:04to find solutions for that. It's a heavy volume business. And we needed to create a lot of assets.We needed to create a lot of different copy, different images. You know, just overall, just a massivecreative need. And AI kind of came along at the right time and just felt like it was the perfect fitfor what we were looking for. So luckily jumped in.it, but like I said, that sort of evolved into its own beast where we're at now.No doubt there is a big future ahead, right?100%.Yeah, I think it's going to be, it evolves every day.
03:35I've never seen tech sort of, you know, on this level of development scale where it feelslike every two weeks there's something new and every, you know, every tool pops up, you know,seemingly every new tool pops up every week and there's, you know, a new feature and there'ssome new crazy functionality.And then it's like, all right, I don't even know how to keep up with it after.So it's a lot, but I think it's just going to continuously improve at a scale that we probably are not used to.So definitely trying to keep track of it myself.Yeah, that was one of my questions for later.
04:09How do you manage to keep on track of everything?Because I'm someone who kind of does just the basics with AI.I feel like that I can see like on LinkedIn or in the news constantly something.And I'm like, oh my God, I wasn't expecting this.So how do you keep up to date with first thing?Simple answer, I don't, to be quite candid.I think it's really hard now.Like when I was starting, right, if we go back a little bit, like two years.
04:34I think it was actually about two years ago this time when chat GPT sort of like came into the marketplace.Sorry to interrupt, but I think recently birthday of two years just as you said.Was it?Okay.Yeah.So I remember it being around Thanksgiving time in the U.S. here, you know, the holiday season.So it was like, okay, you know, started using that.I was like, this is cool.
04:53And then it was, you know, essentially easier, I think, to stay on top of it at that pointbecause there wasn't this breadth of tools where it was, okay, we can do, you know, we can do copy creation.Great.You know, we could also do some strategy and analyze some numbers and things like that.Then it was, all right, let's use this, you know, image generator called Mid Journey.Cool.And then, you know, really kind of a couple months after that, it was runway with video.So to me, it was like these three, you know, in my space, in the creative space.
05:18It was like, okay, we have text, we have images, we have video.Awesome.You know, like that's where we can focus.Now it's seemingly injected into everything.So, you know, the benefit of being in the creative space was I was in a lot of these more complex tools early.Now, the downfall of that is that, you know, creating content and working specifically on these tools is there's just a threat of other tools that I don't necessarily get to focus on.So, you know, by narrowing the focus to build a business, it kind of keeps me in that lane while the other stuff, to be quite candid.I don't have as much insight into as I would like to because it's just not enough time to learn it.
05:55I think it's just impossible.Yeah, it's tough.I mean, I think, you know, it's everyone's zone of genius, right?Like, if you're going to use it for, you know, in your business, if you're going to use it for, you know, starting a business, anything like that, it's kind of got to pick your tools and pick your lane and sort of get good with them before you start to expand because I think it's impossible to learn all of them but once.You just sort of like, to me, like build a skill set.Like learn one, get really good with it.You know, stack another one, stack another one.It's easier to compartmentalize the learning that way
06:25than to try to like, I'm going to build my whole business with AI,but I know nothing.You know, any of these tools.So it's, yeah, it's daunting.I think it was easier to get, I say this to everyone.I think it was easier to get in on it.Not like you still can't, but I think it was easier to get in on it when it was bad.Like I say this to everyone, like when the tools were crappy,
06:46it was like, you know, go back to.I go back to mid-jurning version 3.Like, you could just write text and push-enter, and it would generate an image.And it wasn't that great.But it was easy then.Now there's 700 different functionalities, 15 parameters, all these different things you can do.It's like the difference between having, you know, us growing up with like iPhones, right?iPhone 1, super easy to use because it wasn't the last off.
07:12Now, yeah.It's like giving your grandparents an iPhone saying, like, figure it out.And they're like, uh, you know.And then we'll see, like, in the next 10 years, we will be thinking that what we've got now is like a basic and what we get in 10 years, it will be advanced.Crazy.Even you look back a year.It's like, oh my God, this has come so far.Six months, three months.
07:34You know, it's just like the, that's what I'm saying.Like the pace of development is so insane in comparison to where it used to be Apple, you know.You'd get like an iOS update.And it was different color emoji.this time, you know, nothing radically different.Now it's every two weeks you have somethingon a monumental scale. So it's crazy.I think especially with AI, because no one wants to
07:57stay behind. Everyone wants tokeep on top. So the competition is excited becausefor us as customers or usersbenefit from it, right?So it's really interesting.100%. Yeah, it'slike I said, I think it's reallyunderstanding, which I think probably is a good
08:16conversation, you know, at some point is problem identification, right? Like, I think a lot of peopleare looking for, because there's so many tools, they just want to jump on the popular ones,which is not a bad idea, but like, really the thought process for me has always been like,where are my problems? What do I hate doing? Where is my team, you know, really like falling behind?What's the, where are the friction points? Then, like, how do we find tools that sort of fitthat problem and how do we use them for that problem? Becauseidentifying the problemsand getting creative with the uses of the tools
08:50can be really helpful.I just don't think people are,I think people are just rushing to keep upand not necessarily like consciously thinking aboutreally ways to solve problems with the toolsbecause that's what they are to me.It's just like, you know, another accelerated form of problem solving.And I think people also often forget that it's a tool.
09:09It's not like a full replacement.Obviously, cannot forget or cannot miss discussing thisthat it's just a tool and you should keep some human touch.Because for example, whenever you post, I don't know, or LinkedIn or somewhere, everyone mentions,there still should be some human touch.It's not just a full replacement.So there is also something that should be mentioned.Yeah, I think it's, you know, I think creative people will be creative with it.
09:36You know, I think if you're naturally curious, you can have a wonderful AI experience.because when you start to, you know, just, I think that's why, you know, especially from a content standpoint,which shaped my, a lot of my content early on was, you know, here's like 500 prompts for chat GPT for marketing.And I'm like, okay, but like then everyone, you're not thinking about how to solve the problem.You're just taking a copy paste solution.So you're not, you're not thinking, you're just like, oh, this is how I generate a, you know,social media content calendar with chat GPT by using this standard prompt, not like figuring out what would be thebest way to get, you know, the best answer from this tool, meaning like, what kind of data
10:19would it need? What would be some examples that I would like to see to repurpose? Like, what aresome things that you're trying to achieve from like a goal standpoint? You know, instead of justusing these like long prompts that you don't think through, you like actually learn how to talkto the tool and like how to understand how it's going to like output for you. That to me wassort of monumental and utilizing this stuff, was just getting creative. Like, where can I pushthis thing. How, you know, and, you know, just like that. Yeah, I think it's, you know, I thinkcreative people will be creative with it. You know, I think if you're, if you're naturally curious,you can have a wonderful AI experience because when you start to, you know, just, I think that's why,
11:00you know, especially from a content standpoint, which shaped my, one of my content early on was,you know, here's like 500 prompts for chat GPT for marketing. And I'm like, okay, but like, then everyone,you're not thinking about how to solve the problem.You're just taking a copy-paste solution.So you're not thinking, you're just like,oh, this is how I generate a social media content calendarwith chat GPT by using this standard prompt,not like figuring out what would be the best way
11:27to get the best answer from this tool,meaning like what kind of data would it need?What would be some examples that I would like to see to repurpose?Like what are some things that you're trying to achievefrom like a goal standpoint, you know, instead of just using these like long prompts that you don'tthink through, you like actually learn how to talk to the tool and like how to understand how it'sgoing to like output for you. That to me was sort of monumental in utilizing this stuff, was justgetting creative. Like, where can I push this thing? How, you know, and you know, just like that.
12:00And I think it's a great point that you mentioned because, for example, I can see quite oftenalso like a post on LinkedIn or somewhere. Top one other.prompts or something that you, I don't know, need to use, that you will benefit from blah, blah, and this and this.And sometimes I've also got like a, you know, formal or tendency.I need to check it.It's going to be game changer or something.But then it comes to the point that you just mentioned.Is it actually how else you?
12:26Do you actually need it?And it's not just copy and paste.You should be thinking about it at least a bit or use what you need, actually.That's the old adage to be of, you know, teaching someone how to fish versus giving them.the fish, you know, like if you, if you learn sort of how the tools function at a baseline level,how they think, how they output, then you can sort of take your own direction with it because it's not,you know, these sort of formulated responses and prompts. They tend to be very generic and you getgeneric answers. Then that also turns people off to the tools because they're like, well,
13:02that didn't give me anything good. It's like, well, you also didn't try, you know, so it's, you know,It does take some effort.It does take effort.That's more harm than good, because then you see like a post,which are super obviously, I like generated.Emojis, the same words.Yeah, you know, it's the same thing.This is a game changer.
13:24Supercharge, you're marketing.You know, it's like, I get it.People are just getting on here, just getting started.I don't want to knock anyone for that.It's just we're so insulated in our little AI bubble because we're in it every day.And like, I can look at text and be like, that's chat.I hear it on the radio commercials now every once in a while.Yes, I still listen to the radio.
13:43Oh, I haven't noticed on radio that they do that.Like lawyers and stuff, they'll do like a commercial where I can just hear that it's,the script is 100% written by Chad GBT.It's so obvious.But, you know, I think that's died a little bit from about like six months ago where it was so obvious.You know, it just feels a little bit, feels a little bit robotic.feels a little bitI hate to say
14:09lifeless, it doesI think the copy to mecomes outway more lifelessthan some of theimages and the videosbut that's my own personal takebecause I think
14:18everyone writes differentI have to agreesometimes when I see thatI'm likecome on you could haveput a bit more effortinto itat least try to
14:27present analyze itor somethingor take the answerand say likedo this in a different wayyou knowlike it's just thatit's going one step further
14:34I think is wheremost people gethung up. They get their output and they're like, oh, that wasn't good. I'm going to either quitand like, you know, just take it and write it myself or I'm just going to, you know, post as is.If you take it that one step further, where you go a little bit, oh, can we make this? Can we changethe tone up? Can we, you know, shorten the sentences? Can we cut the fluff words? Can we use morevisceral language? Like, you know, it's an editing tool too. You know, you can take it and just goin there and sort of like play around with it, get different variations. So like, like, curiosity.
15:06right? I keep saying that about all the tools.What can I actually get out of it?Because you can most of the time what you want if you just keep going.And just as you are discussing this, do you remember from your own experience,like back in a day maybe when you were starting some, let's say, gringy moments or somethingthat you wish you haven't done the way that you did, such as copy and paste or somethinglike that when using AI?Something I wish I hadn't done.
15:34Yeah.that now makes you think like, oh my God, why did I do it this way?I don't know.I think it was all.I kind of have like a, I'm a very like optimistic mindset person where I feel like allthe failures were like building up to something else.So, you know, I never downloaded those those prompt guides, prompt templates, thingslike that.
15:56What I would, would I look at them and like see like some interesting thought processes?Yes.And like adapted to myself.You know, maybe I would have.Back then, you know, taking those a little bit more seriously and you try to figure out like really hardcore, like how to get the most like really focusing in on tonality, I think early on probably if I was going to say anything was like, like how do I get this tool to speak exactly like me?That would be, you know, found that very hard early on.I figured it out, you know, basically from a trial and error standpoint for over a couple months of it really needed a lot of raw data.Like, I needed to break my own stuff down into raw data.
16:38Like, what type of words do I use the most?How long are my sentences typically?What, you know, what type of, you know, sort of flow do I have format structure?So that it became like a formula to then input back into the system.So I wish I had thought about it that way, you know, really breaking everything down.I think about it like, it's like ingredients, right?Like, I think this is a very simple process for, you know, thinking about anything with AI, like, you know, pizza.You have your dough, you have tomato sauce, you have mozzarella, maybe some toppings.
17:11Like if you put all those together, you get a pizza.But also if you break it back apart, that can be also a calzone or something else.Right?But it's getting it into that ingredient formats that it can be rebuilt.But I think that works the same way with images and videos.How I take an image, break it down into its requisite ingredients, and then control all those little ingredients to build it back out.So that thought process, if I had found that out two years ago versus about, you know, 16 months ago, would have been monumental.But it took me, you know, a while to get there.
17:45That's definitely one thing.It's a great point.And I can only relate to it.And as we are discussing AI, actually, we're always like a curious person who was trying new things, new tech and stuff.Or how did you actually, you know, when you heard about it, what made you do?to try or to explore it.I saw some things on Twitter.So it was like a late night Doom Scroll kind of thing
18:09where I was just, you know, trying to wind down for my day.And I saw these crazy pictures.I think it was like, you know, either Peter Griffin from Family Guyin like a 1980s sitcom or something like thator the Pope and a Balenciaga jacket.And I'm like, who's making this stuff?And then I went and I saw that the tool was mid-journey.And I was like, okay, what the hell is this?
18:32I went, you know, figured out how to get it downloaded and up, you know, in the Discord.I'd never used Discord before.Went on there.So I made like my first prompt and it was something, you know, something crazy.And it came out and I was like, all right.That's pretty cool.And then before I note, I tried like a few other things.And then I spent eight straight hours on it.
18:52And I was like, this is insane.I was up until like three in the morning.I paid for like, I paid for like a, the highest plan subscription immediately.And I was like, that's, that's it.I'm in.And it was the start of new chapter in life.Yeah.And then it took a couple days for me to be like, can I do this for work?
19:12You know, like, how can I use this somehow?Because, you know, candidly, it came at a time where, you know, we were Black Friday, right?Like, we just passed Black Friday.And in the email and paid media world, it's craziness during this time.Like, this is the Super Bowl.and you need to send at more volume than you're doing most of the time.You're just, you know, it's deals, it's the holidays.You're trying to make, you know, Q4 crazy because Q1 typically is way slower.
19:43So, you know, we, in the agency world, we had about 90 clients at the time.We were very behind, you know, in terms of getting things updated, especially for our clients, right?Like talking about specific problems, you know, typically when you're running something like email marketing, right?like we'd have a new client comes on.We're building probably about anywhere between 20 to 25 automation emails.So those are your standard welcome series, abandoned,and banned car, browse, abandoned, post-purchase, you know,four to five emails per sequence there.
20:12And then you're doing during this time,anywhere from like 10 to 20 campaigns a month.So if you can imagine like the amount of asset load that has to go into that,images, like different stylizations, you know, graphics, infographics,things like that.It's a lot.And a lot of the clients oftentimes, they just don't have the asset volume to keep up with that.So you have to reuse stuff over and over and over again and become stale.
20:37So that was kind of like our way of how can we can we use this for like better storytelling?So like for example, if we had a salad dressing company, right?Maybe they only had an asset base of 100 images.We could run through that in two months, three months, right?It's done.Now we either are going, you know, we didn't have in-house production.So it'd be like, oh, you guys need more assets.And they'd be like, we're not going to do that in this quarter because it's too expensive.
21:02And it's not in our budget.Great.Like now we just have to use the same images over and over again.So we were talking about something like, you know, I use this example all the time.If we were talking about like an active ingredient within the salad dressing company.So maybe we're talking about avocado oil, right?Maybe they don't have any images of like an avocado and some, you know, next to like a bottle or something like that.We're talking about the benefits of avocado oil, like all the good, you know, health benefits, whatever.
21:27instead of just slapping a product shot into the email,where I was just like, here's the salad dressing bottle, buy our stuff,you know, while talking about avocado oil,it's like, can we create an image in the brand style?That's maybe a picture of oil and avocado.So it flows better with the storytelling and like the visual sort of aestheticsof the entire email, the marketing message just connects better.And that was kind of where we started to see traction because, you know,
21:53the click-the-rate started to improve.we started to notice a lot more positive feedback from just the metrics that we had.So I was like, okay, we're telling better stories now with these images because we don't have to force feed people product shots, which is basically just, you know, from marketing standpoint, just please buy my stuff.Like that's all it says.So yeah, that was kind of like the inflection point for us when that stuff started to hit.And then I was like, okay, we can do this for one client.Can we do this for others?and then that's sort of, that's sort of opened up Pandora's box into not just we're doing this in email marketing for, you know, external facing things.
22:32What can we do internally with this?What other problems can we solve?Then it's, then if you have someone that's curious like I'm talking about, you start to see, you start to see like the matrix, right?It's like to see.It's like, wait, can this be in the sales process?Can this be an onboarding?Can this be in, you know, client concepting?And you start to be like, it can.
22:55How do we fit it in?Then that's developing the processes, the systems,talking to clients, getting feedback, things like that.So really long answer,but that's sort of like the progression of how it all came to be.It makes complete sense.If I was in such a position,I would go down the rapid hole as well because it was even back then.
23:14I think back then I didn't even know what was it.I was actually about to ask you.You probably kind of answered.But what was the reception or the feedback for,For example, of the clients because suddenly they didn't have to take the picture.They didn't have to deal with it.I guess that the pictures looked cool at the same time.So it must have been like a game changer.
23:35Don't want to use that word game changer?Because we just discussed.It was.I mean, it was though, because initially early on, being totally candid, two years ago,no one was worried about like infringement or there wasn't like a lot of legal talk,there is now, which we're way more careful about than we were back then, candidly, becauseyou know, honestly, if there could, it was like the stars aligned, there couldn't have been abetter format for it than email because email number one typically has a very short shelf life.
24:08Like, a promotional email, I tell everyone, I don't know anyone who goes back into theirpromotional inbox. Like, do you ever go back and look at an email from a week ago in there?Or do you just, like, hit mark all as red? Most of the time, that's what you're doing if youdon't actually open the email. So it has a very short shelf life, typically between like six to12 hours, ish, that it's going to live. After that, it's buried in, you know, the annals of history.And it's a very small format. So, you know, typically you have about like 75%ish most of thetime are opening on mobile. So it's a very small format. And back then, we didn't have the upscalersthat we do now. So, you know, resolution and pixel clarity was a thing. So,
24:52in a small format in a short shelf life for something that's built for the medium itself,email is not, you don't sell on email marketing.You move people from your email to your website.So the goal is just to attract visual firepower, get someone interested, move them to thewebsites that they go buy, right?Now, that's where, you know, we started to get traction with our clients because it's likewe can be a little bit bolder, we can be a little bit more exciting in email because, you know,I don't think anyone really looks at emails being like, this is sexy, but email sells, right?
25:25So that was, and when they were like, oh, you guys can just produce these assets and we don't have,and I'm like, yeah, it takes five minutes to do this.And they're like, this is great.And they were a lot of, you know, a lot of early adapters were on board.And a lot of them didn't even, you know, we would show them two pictures and be like,they'd be like, which one's AI?And I'd be like, wow, okay.So that was.
25:51Because we were doing it for external facing first, which I think a lot of people didn't do.You know, they're coming into the game new.Now I think people are not putting things out externally before they really know the tools.But our whole goal was how do we match brand style?How do we make things look real to where you can't distinguish it?So that, those two problems in themselves kind of opened up the entirety of it for usbecause that was something that was a big, that was a big, you know, pain point for people early on with the tools is how do you make things look real and how do you get things consistent?Yeah.
26:27So, you know, that set up, you know, that set us up to operationalize this stuff.How do we figure out prompting its scale so that not I can just do it, that my whole team can do it.And I think the other thing that doesn't get talked about, too, not to go too long on this is the internal buy-in.Like, you need to have people that are just like, okay, I'll do this because, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't pretty.and designing at the time.I was in sales and business development,and I was trying to grow our client base,but I always know our designer.
26:55I'm a former designer,you know,freelancing for a while.So I just know that that process is really toughbecause you're just producing so much,like,assets at scale and different creative at scale,which are also dealing with client revisions.
27:11Can you change the text here?Can you change the colors here?You know,you get buried in it.So I know they were always overworkedAnd it was like, how can I help them?Can I help them?Can this get them done 10% quicker with what they're trying to do?
27:24Because that would be, you know, at scale across 90 clients, 10% savings, you know, on time.It's a lot over the course of a year.So that was kind of like, all right, now we can start to, you know, once we started to get, you needed one person.I got one person into it.You know, he saw the light.And then he just sort of ran with it from there.And then that was sort of like the, I don't want to say the viral moment, but it's like, that's how it started to spread from person to person.Because if it was just me preaching it to an employee, here, go learn this tool, do more work so that you can do your work.
27:57It doesn't sound as good or as feasible as, you know, let's get excited about this tool.Let's work on it in a fun way.And then we'll apply it.Because then, you know, you have that sort of self-led, self-taught environment.But it was, you know, as you were explaining it, I was trying to put my.myself into the shoes of someone those two years ago.Because I don't know, I would probably, I wouldn't believe because literally it wouldchange the game and be super cool.
28:27And I can imagine you as the person who's doing kind of everything.It must have been super excited also to be the one who's diving into this tool and, you know,exploring and learning and doing all the stuff.So it must have been just super cool time back then.Yeah, man.It was passion, it was like passion, curiosity and necessity all at the same time.So, like, I was so into it for myself.I felt like it was my creative outlet back then.
28:52Like, when I got out of design, I felt like I lost that a lot of it, you know,so then I had a place to go do it, not just for business, but for fun.And then, you know, there was the, really the necessity part of it where we needed it.So it was getting people to do.I think that was the hardest part.It was really like, okay, it's this crazy time of year.And there's, you know, so much work to be done.How do I get people to be like, you need to.
29:15learn this tool, which is basically like, here's more work on top of your work.Which, again, so we had to do it in a fun way, which also made it better.Yeah.Because that was like getting, getting people into it is, is definitely something that doesn'tget talked about.It's like, you have to, you know, people think that it's going to replace them.They have, you know, a lot of reservation about it.They don't think it's good.
29:37There's a lot of different, like, hurdles to get over because you'll have like those 15%,20% early adopters who just say, yes, I do it.the 60% that like waits and the 20% that just like, I'm never going to do this.So you have to figure out how to attack all those segments.Are you looking to elevate your online presents?Check out Trailblaest, our digital marketing agency.Whether it's standing out on social media,crafting a stunning new website or developing impact visuals,
30:04Trailblaest has got your back.Visit Trailblaest.digital and reach your online potentials a day.And would you be able to compare back then to know what is like people's reception or opening on it,if they are more open or welcoming to try it or if it's still similar?You have to find the inn, right?Like I always talk about this.It's like sales, right?Like when I'm doing sales, I'm asking a lot of questions.
30:32I'm trying to find the pain point as to like where the real frustration is so that I can hit on that.And then like keep finding, you know, like the little piece.that I'm like, oh, okay, that's, that's really bothering them. Let me ask more about that.Because that opens up the problem, right? And once you see the problem, then you can apply the solution.Now, like, the feeling back then was that, oh, it can't do like a Photoshop style design.I'm like, you can't do text. I can't do this. I'm like, yeah, you guys are still designers.So you can still do that. You're using a base image. Like, the thing that, the thing that really like took it off, you know, because initially when I was posting this stuff content wise, too, like, graphicdesigners were like ready to kill me. And I'm like, I don't think you guys understand. I was like,
31:15I don't think you guys understand. This is like the best thing that's ever happened to us as graphicdesigners because we don't have to go through stock sites anymore for certain things. They're like,it can't do, you can't do anything that we can do. It's going to like, blah, blah. I'm like,no, no, no, you're not looking at it the right way. Like we build everything in layers, right?Like, we build images and layers. You have an image. Sometimes you're adding a gradient. Sometimesyou're adding different textures. You're adding text on top. You're different icons and holding andframing elements, things like that. You can generate those all separately and then do your job and put themtogether. So instead of, you know, like I remember we did this example for a basketball,
31:54it was like a social media post, but like for basketball themed, right? And it was like,we can generate a background of the court. We can get a basketball texture. We can get like a gridpattern where they typically take the scores and we can all layer that and, you know, put it together.So instead of, you know, going and generating this whole composition in one shot, it's like,let's generate each individual piece, like the ingredients. So, you know, like, instead of just beingthe chef, now we're also the farmer. Like, we're growing our own ingredients and then we're puttingeverything together and cooking the meal. And that's when like that flipped on a dime, that'swhen everyone started to get it. It was like, I don't have to go through stock image sites to find
32:33a basketball texture. I don't have to go through these free, you know, sort of icon sites to findsomething that I want. We can go generate them on here. That was when it was like, like, you know,that was like the light moment, the epiphany for everyone. Because they got it then.And do you remember back then what was the competition like? If you were like one of thelet's say trailblazers who discovered this or was there like a competition that werealready using it or catching up as well? Or what was the situation like?I don't even think there were, I don't think there was many people.I mean, I remember I did about, it was June of last year.
33:12And I had been using the tools, I think, at that point for, was it June of last year?Yeah, it was June of last year.I had been using the tools for at that point, where are we at now?Eight months, maybe.And I gave, I went and did, I got asked to go do a presentation in Barcelona in front of, like,4,000 people and I was like, guys, I don't even, like, you want me on a stage in front of4,000 people talking about this stuff? Like, I, I've only been doing this for a couple months.Like, you know, they were like, they're like, no, this is highly interesting. And I'm like, okay.
33:49And I was like, but you're sure. Like, this is like, your audience wants this. It was performancemarketing. I mean, they were, you know, media buyers and, you know, things like that.And I got on stage and I'm like, you're bugging. I've never been on stage before, you know, super, super,super nervous. Like, you know, biggest fear was public speaking, failed that course in college,never done it before. And I buried myself for about two weeks to get this thing done. Theygave me very short notice, too. It was only like two weeks. And my wife was like, you have to do this.It's like, you have to go and do this. Like the one time, like this could be the turning point.I was like, all right. So I did it. And I get up there and I just let it all out. And I could find,
34:28I started, you know, started talking about it. And my presentation was super like,bold and visual, like lots of colors.Something different that you haven't really seen from a stage presentation before.It wasn't like a PowerPoint.It was like, there's neon color, yeah, neon color face tattoos and stuff like that.And I can see people's faces in the crowd.And it was just like, as I'm going through it, I can also see that none of them had everlooked at this before.
34:54They were just like, they maybe heard about it.They hadn't really seen it.And I'm presenting it as if, you know, as if you guys should be using this in the business,how it's already been structured, how we put it in there, how we've utilized it.I got swarmed after I got off the stage.People were like, what the hell was that?And they were like, you've already have this in the business.You're using this like every day.
35:17I'm like, yeah, for a lot of clients, they're like, Jesus.It just exploded from there.That's when I knew that I was like, we're pretty far ahead, even though I don't feel likewe're far ahead.But, you know, people were just getting started then.And that was crazy.It hasn't been super cool experience, you know, seeing those faces of people like, wow, what is this?What is this guy?
35:39Where did he come up with all of this?It was surreal.I mean, for me to get on stage and actually, like, deliver something out of my mouth, which I was so nervous, I was just going to either puke on stage or, you know, 4,000 people get out there.I'm like, I guess it's not a lot of people.Yeah.Very natural.I'm pretty sure that everyone would.of people would be like that.
36:03Oh my God.And then, you know, as you see it, you're looking for like visual cues if people,number one, are interested and number two are like engaged.And I just started seeing every slide, you know, hundreds of phones go up to take pictures ofthe slides.And I'm like, everyone's listening.This is weird.You know, like, it's a very odd feeling to have like that sort of like, I don't want to say
36:27power, but it's like, people are like hanging on your words and they're taking pictures.like this is nuts. And I saw one person. If I ever find this lady, I'm going to give her the biggesthug. My voice was stuttering when I listened back to it. Everyone said I sounded decent. I waslike, no, I sounded like a nervous wreck. But there was one woman that just had like her hands over herhead like clapping at every big slide. And I just looked at her. And I was like, you're going toget me through this. Because I'm the biggest fan. Yeah. She was just, she was great. But it was,Like I said, man, that was, you know, I had people coming up to me that were just CEOs, founders, big, you know, big business.Like, what is this? Tell me everything. Tell me right now. I couldn't, I couldn't have five minutes to myself the rest of the conference. And I was, that was, that was, like, nothing I'd ever experienced. It was, it was nuts. Even the people on stage, people are like, we came back to watch your presentation because, like, we started hearing the buzz about it.
37:27People are like, this guy's going, doing some crazy stuff on stage right now.Yeah.And I'm trying to be modest about it, honestly.Like, I still feel like my presentation was average, but like it's just because it was so new.It was new.I just think it was new and no one had seen it yet.That was really the novelty factor of it.I mean, I'm not going to life.
37:48I was in the audience.I would be one of those people with open mouth and be like, what the hell is that?And it was just new.Yeah.And we had data.That was the other thing.I think that was really important in all of this is, you know, I don't think people track a lot of what they're doing with AI significantly.But we were very meticulous on that early on.
38:05Like, how do we track this to actually make sure it makes sense?Like, is it saving us time?Is it making us more productive?Is it improving like our, you know, employees sort of like time allocation?And like, is it generating ROI?And we did that.And that was where I think a lot of people were super into it because I was showing the breakdown of how that works.and like why it worked and like really meticulous numbers on it.
38:30So it was, I think that was evidence behind it.Yeah.Instead of just selling the dream, right?Instead of selling the dream, it was like, here's the tangible facts as to how it's work.I think that's what really got people excited.There wasn't a lot of that at the time.And it was good that we did that.That was the X factor.
38:49And I wonder, because obviously back then, because you were new to this,you are kind of the one who's bringing this up to people who don't know.So did you feel like that you wanted to share it with people so that they can benefit from it?Or did you also feel like that you want to keep it maybe for yourself because maybe you are afraid that they would catch up or there would be like a competition?No.Honestly, I felt like share everything.It's a weird feeling.I've learned this from a few other founders, CEOs I've talked to.
39:22It just stuck with me.they're like, you can tell someone how to do 100% of the thing you do.5% will go out and do it.The 95% will not.So I was like, yeah, and I was, you know, that stuck with me a lot.And especially creating content as well, you know, I'll get into that in a second.But like, I was giving all this stuff away at the time because I also knew that these tools changed so quickly that it doesn't matter.Like, whatever I say today is going to be done in two months.
39:48And, you know, really, I was just like, if anyone actually wants to go and do this,you know, here's all the information.It was basically like, I don't want to say it was a glorified sales pitch.I wasn't selling anything at the time.I didn't have anything to offer.I was working at an agency, right?I wasn't like, like, please go buy my course.It was just like, here's everything I'm doing.
40:05If you want to try it out, go ahead.And yeah, because I think that that whole sort of everyone was cagey in the beginning.Like, do we share prompts?How I got there?I'm like, yeah, why not?Who cares?Like, it's just a, it's, you know,you're showing your thought process, too, let someone build on it.
40:25Like, someone's going to, everyone remembers their first, right?Like, if you teach someone how to do something or you, like, seriously impact someoneor, like, change their thought process or whatever, like, you remember that person.I was hoping that would be the case that, you know, here, I'm giving you everything I know.Hopefully, you know, there's some sort of reciprocation on the back end.You send me a client.You hire me for a project.Whatever.
40:47I'm like, you know, the information is the commodity at this point.So that was, uh,I thought about it.And then from a, you know, from a content standpoint, always, like, here's the exact way I did this.Here's the prompt that I used.If you want to go try it out, see if it works for you.You know, like that's, I also felt like that was like a check and balance too.Because you can see at that time, a lot of people were just like, here's what I created on, you know, with mid-journery.
41:13Here's what I created with XYZ tool.But no back end to how you got there.No fails.Like, you know, here's the roadblocks to watch out for.really when I was creating content, I was like, let me show you each step.This is what can happen.It could be bad this way.If it happens bad this way, this is how you adjust it.
41:29So it was like a way of navigating through a thought process and not just use thisprompts.It'll get good results every time.If this prompt doesn't work or you don't like it, here's how to fix it.And also like what to really do with it.So yeah, that's a great question, man.Because I think, I think that, you know, we learned that early on to like going back to sales,when we were selling,
41:53we had really good,really good conversion rateswith our salesbecause we were basically,you know,when we do a phone callwith a potential client,we'd break down the entire channel
42:04with them on the phone.We'd go like,all right,open up your Clavio account.Let's go through each little piece by piece.Look at everything.You know,we'd say,
42:11this is a problem area.Oh, this is good.You know,this doesn't need to be changed.That, you know,could be a potential area for growth.Then we give them an entire audit,basically,
42:20step by step, what exactly is wrong.This is the timelines it would take to fix it.This is kind of exactly what you need.This is what we build is how to do it.Basically, if they wanted to go take it and run with it and do it internally,they had a whole consulting plan.It's like the whole tutorial.Yeah.
42:37And I mean, 95% of the time, like I said,they would just say, you guys go do this.And then the other 5% people take it, run with it.They'd come back a year later or something.It'd be like, I got great results from the changes you said to make.you know, we didn't end up going with you, but, you know, thank you.Good.If you guys ever have any clients that need it or friends, whatever, send them our way.
42:59Yeah.It's amazing because I often see people posting something on, again, on LinkedIn, like what I created.I'm like, oh, my God, how did they do it?I have no idea.So I always appreciate that they basically show step by step and like a recipe, how they get it to the result.And now, as you said, if they mentioned roadblocks or something, just makes it.much easier because for someone who doesn't know that or hasn't tried it, it's just much morebenefit. So just extra appreciation for this. Yeah. I mean, like there's there's certain things that,
43:32you know, just too hard and too intangible to explain. But if you can sort of navigate, I like to calllike the decision tree as to like this isn't working. What can I try next? What can I try next? What can I try next?If you give people sort of that sort of framework, so much easier to get to the end result.And the good thing is with these tools, it's like using Photoshop now at this point,not saying that there's a direct correlation, but Photoshop, they have so many features.You know, if two of us got to the same end result, we probably could have used a 100% different process.So it's kind of that same theory of just like you can get to the end result.You can do it a million different ways.
44:14It's just kind of how you think about it.and how you want to like sort of attack things.But it's a it's really, it's really, you know,I just kind of love where it is at the current moment,where it still feels a little raw and it still feels a little unpolishedand it still feels like you have to think through things to get to a solutionbecause it just, I think it makes you better at the tools themselves is like problem solving.Oh, this didn't, you know, like I use this example all the time.
44:43a lot of people have trouble with getting cars to,getting cars to drive in AI video, right?Like, sometimes the cars look like they're sliding and not driving.And I'm like, well, because the, you know,in the image that you're putting in to the video generator,the wheels are static, they're not moving.So it doesn't understand that, like, it's moving.So all you, you know, when you're prompting in the image,
45:05you want to prompt for spinning wheels.So the wheels are spinning, so there's a little bit of motion.So the tool just picks it up and runs with it.And it's like, oh, like little things.things, but I had to figure that out myself.No, it's just pretty cool.Never think of this.Yeah.
45:20And it works.It's complete time.Yeah.It's just, you know, giving it, don't ask it to do too much.Like, you have to still give it a little bit of a head start, which is like, okay,the wheels are spinning.Therefore, it's thinking, oh, car driving, you know, car drive this way.Okay.
45:36Much easier then.And I like the way that you think about it and what you just said, because then it forcesyou not to be lazy and not to rely on it fully, but you also need to think of it.And as we said, it's not a full replacement, but it's ultimately about the person who's usingthat.Of course, it helps.It's streamlined the process.It's a great benefit.
45:57But at the same time, you need to do some effort as well.Yeah.I mean, there's like, there's little things, right?Like, there was a lot of times people would be like, you know, I can't get a full body shotof someone in midjury.It always cuts them off the hips, right?And it's like, okay, like how many times can you try full body shot showing the full body and the prompt and it doesn't work?So then it would be like simple hacks, like prompt for the shoes.
46:22You know, like, because it's going to force it in there.So it's going to have to force in shoes somewhere.So if you say, you know, full body shot of a woman, you know, wearing a dress and white sneakers,then it has to like conceptualize white sneakers in the image, meaning you'll get the full body shot.Right.So it's like little things like that where it's just not instead of quitting and saying,It doesn't do full body shots.It's like, try something else one step further.
46:46Because oftentimes it'll get there.Because if you do this stuff enough, you see how good some of the outputs are where you, you know,I still get one from mid journey like once a month where I'm like, my God.Like that is insane that I could do that, even after generating like hundreds of thousands of images.But, you know, there's a way.They can do it.It's just like, can we navigate, you know?So that's really where.
47:11I wish people would just kind of push it a little bit further than they do.I cannot imagine what such images that blow your mind, what they are like,because I was obviously checking your work or your website and stuff like that.And as someone who doesn't use it, regular or that much,like those private pictures that for you are regular.For me, those are like, oh, my God, this is really beautiful.So I can't imagine what is beautiful for you, like, even a higher level.some of them just like nail in a motion or a composition so well and I did one the other day
47:46and it was it was a child soldier but it just like the way that it composed the image and likethe emotion and it was not it was very realistic to me in terms of like that would generate avisual reaction for me if I was not knowing that that was AI if I just look at that I'd belike that's a sick photo and that's like that looks like to me like ifwould be on the cover of National Geographic, but it was, I generated 500 of them.And that was the one, there was one that I was like, damn, like that is, that stands out above the rest.So it still does it.And it would show you that every once in a while.
48:24These tools, they show you this stuff.Like, I remember with some of the stuff in version, we're on version six now in version four, where you get it and be like, what the?And then like version five, same thing.It comes, it's like a little golden nugget that keeps you going, being like,it can do that.Or some of the video tools,you get a really crazy outputand it looks insane
48:44and you're like,it can do that so you know it's capable.You just have to like get it there.But that's always like a curiosity, right?Yeah, I agree.I would be curious.When did you actually startor when did you decide to also build
49:01your personal brand around this?Because obviously what we discussed beforeback in Barcelona,I can imagine that thenyou must have felt like someone who knows, so it will be shame not to benefit from it.Yeah, so LinkedIn was really like the space where I was doing it, I started doing it as more so of a lead acquisition channel for email marketing.And I was doing stuff on email marketing and whatnot.And it was kind of boring.
49:24Like I was bored of doing email marketing content.It's not sexy, like I said.So, you know, someone was just like, this is cool.You know, you should post this on LinkedIn.And I was like, all right, I'll just do that.And I did it one day.And I was like, here's kind of, you know, the beginner's guide for, you know,or mid-jorney nobs like me or something like that.
49:45And I was just like, not like being an expert in the tool, just saying, you know,this is what I'm finding on this really cool tool and I'm enjoying it.And, you know, this is where I suck at it.This is where I don't know what to do.And I started posting that.I posted that and it went really well.Like a lot of engagement, a lot of interest.You know, really where it started.
50:05if I'd go back even a little furtherwas I used to do these carouselsbut I'm talking about email marketingright and the whole goal therewas not to you knownot to bore peopleso you knowpeople scroll by email marketing stuff
50:22because it's just again it just doesn'tit's not as sexy as a lot of thingsso I would useI would try to find these stock photosfor my carousel covers that were really outrageousand then at a certain pointI was just like I can just do this on mid-jurneyand I started making the covers, you know,
50:36it might be like a flaming neon skull,but I'm talking about like an email marketing automation.But every comment would be like, where did you get this photo?Like, what stock site?I was like, I made it.They were like, what are you using?And then I was like, I'll just tell them what I'm doing.That's where it started.
50:53Yeah.And then it started.And then I was like, okay, maybe I'll do this.I'll do this like once a week.So I started doing a mid-journey post like once a week.I figured Saturdays was a great daybecause people were looking to be entertained.They're not at work.
51:06They're not taking calls.They're not in meetings.They don't have deadlines.So I'm like,oh, let me just do this fun thingthat I like to do for funand I'll put it on the weekends.And it was just like every week
51:15it was just this.It was like hit, hit, hit, hit.And then I started looking around.I started searching and I'm like,no one else is really doing this.My partner on my podcast, Drew Bruckard,it was the only other person I sawat one point really talking about
51:28like how to do this stuffand like really like what we're doingin-depth prompts, things like that.And,It was just like at a certain point, there was like an inflection of like, this is the only stuff that's performing anymore.Like other stuff no one cares about.This is the only stuff.So I think I have to start shifting.
51:43So it started to become like two posts a week, three posts a week, four posts a week.And before you know, that's the entire ethos of my personal brand is mid-journey.Right.So it was amazing.Because you found the obviously niche.And if you said that there wasn't really anyone doing that, I think it's such amazing opportunity.And it was, you know, you think about a lot of, there's a lot of generalists in the space nowwhere it's just like you talk about tools, you talk about AI updates, like there's nothing
52:13wrong with that. I don't find that to be wrong. I think it was just like, because I was sointerested in this one tool and I was finding so many uses for it, it was a very easy placefor someone to come and, you know, sort of dive in and like really learn something instead ofjust like piecemeal every once in a while about a tool. Just like, this is it. This is the directionwe're going. That's how, you know, you can basically go back through all of my content and learnthe entire tool at an expert level if you wanted to, to go from like post to post, post, post, post,it's all there. But that was, you know, that was different for me. I'd never really focused onsomething so narrow on content before. And just like trying to find different ways to utilize it,
52:53which made me better at it because it was like, here's how you use it for food photography.Here's how you use for this. You know, it's kind of like, you're trying to expand your ideas,which is one use of a tool, which was super helpful.And I think it's going to be quite an obvious question,but you still feel the same excitement,talking about this, making posts about it,and diving into this world of me journey or AI.Yeah.
53:17Sometimes it does feel like work, you know, to be quite honest,just to get posts out.Like it is sometimes like, I know it's been two or three days.Like, I just got to do something.But, you know, granted, thank God a lot of these tools update.a lot and there's new features and there's ways to tag team the tools now,especially with, you know, mid-journey and the video stuff.Like, you know, a lot of it's images of video so I can create stuff, you know,
53:39on mid-journey still, like I still have my fix and then go put it into video andanimate those things together.So, yeah, there's days where I'm like, you know, I got to throw something together uphere.And there's days when I'm genuinely like trying to figure something out like right now,probably going to post it later.I've been trying to get a shot of a basketball, like a video generator.to get a guy shooting a basketball and get it to go into the net.
54:03That has taken me six months with the tools.I finally got it.I finally figured out.Like, this is something that, again, like, it seems so simple,but I know it's really hard to get, like, a basketball to, like,travel naturally in the air with the arc into the basket, hit the net.That's a lot of, like, data calculation for these tools.So, you know, like, something like that gets me excited.
54:26It was so dumb.It's just a shot of a basketball into the net.But, like, really, that's money.worth of failure to get there.So it's things like that.It's super cool.I would never expect that it's,now I don't want to make it sound like that it's easy,
54:41but that it takes such long time,even for a professional to nail such a shot.Yeah, you'd be surprised.I think that's the common misconceptionwith a lot of stuff right now,is that AI is like a one-click solutionwhere you go look at some of the Coca-Cola ads,right, that they just released with all,
54:57you know, that were fully AI generated.10,000 images.10,000 images generated for that 60seconds spot. It's still a long process.A lot of regenerations on the videoside. editing.You know, doing all the differentpost processing. It's still
55:13like a creativeprocess. It's not justgive me a Coca-Cola ad, enter.There it is. Like it's alot of work. So, you know,I think but these problems, solvingthem now, like it works forfuture applications, right?
55:29you know, how can we, you know, that type of, that type of shot can now be used.It was forever to sort of figure out the, am I going to use keyframes?Am I going to use a motion brush?What tool has the capabilities to do it?Is the generation time long enough?Does five seconds get it there?Do I need 10 seconds?Like, there's a lot of different micro decisions that go into it.
55:50But like, this is stuff I get excited about.Like, I get excited about that.I'm happy to hear that because I often also feel like that people think it's just,one click and it does everything so now we can hear it from a professional that that's not truei mean look if if everyone wants to go give it a try you know go give it a try tell me if it's one clickgo try mid journey and type you know photo of a man and see what you get like it's going to be verygeneric and it's not going to be what you're looking for still like a thought process to behad and all that i think that gets lost in all this that there is conscious decisions every step of
56:25the way like it's not just mindlesstyping into a keyboard enter.There's a lot of different manipulating going on.And to worry, because I think we could be speaking for much longer, but to respect your time,before we finish, do you want to promote yourself for your services or where people canfollow you and find you?Yeah, man, LinkedIn, I'm there all the time.That's pretty, if you need me, I have, you know, want to chat.
56:55I'm there.I'm on Twitter.a lot of the times too now.Roar underscore Fly on Twitter.We also do a podcast, myself and Drew,we're on YouTube called Mid Journey Fast Hours.I think that's a really good spot for anyone who really wants toeither nerd out a little bit.
57:11We go deep dive into a lot of things on processes and how to do things.We talk about current events.We have guests on.So that's really a place where we get to open up the discussionand talk about a lot of things.So yeah, those are three places.If you're looking for me,if you want to talk, LinkedIn is a LinkedIn's a spot.
57:28But that's a yeah man.There's hopefully, hopefully more to come down the line.This has been a, this has been pretty legit.I had a fun time talking about this stuff.You raised some big expectations.So we are excited.And I will add everything to show notes.And then before we finish, is there something that you would like to add or share
57:46or something that I forgot to ask you and you would like to say?I think just get curious.Like if I, if I, if I, you've heard it 30 times throughout this podcast.I'm just, get curious.If you're even the remote, even like the slightest bit interested in AI, try it out and don'tuse it for work.Like, just do it for fun.Just try, you know, on the image side, if you want to go create, create things that you
58:11like.Don't do it for work.If you want to go learn how to use chat GPT, figure out how to build like a, you know, like a walkingtour or like a food recommendations and wine pairings for a city that you're going to whenyou're traveling to.Like, do it for fun for things like that.you'll learn it better.It'll actually make you feel like these tools are useful.
58:30And then, you know, just like that'll build learning.And that's the best way to do it is to have a little bit of fun with it.Don't take yourself so seriously.And, you know, really just have that.Because this stuff's the worst that's going to be right now ever.And it's only going to get better.And we'll see where it goes.I can only agree.
58:50And I love the message.I think that's a perfect note to finish with them.I want to say a huge thank you.There will be so much more stuff to discuss.So anytime in the future, we'll be happy to catch up again.I'll make sure to keep following and supporting.So thank you so much, Bro-day.I wish you all the best and thank you.
59:09Thanks, man.Appreciate you having me on.Let's do this again sometime.Thanks for listening to Produce Bye with Tomer.Check out show notes for all the links.And don't forget to like, subscribe and leave your feedback.Speak soon.
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