Produced By - Artistic Odyssey: Journeying Through 3D Art and Community Empowerment | #54: Gordon Neill

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Take a voyage with Gordon Neill, also known as GEO, through the worlds of art, game design and podcasting. With a background in animation and special effects, Gordon brings a unique blend of creativity and technical skill to his work. As the founder of Digital Artcast in 2016, Gordon has interviewed industry icons like Scott Robertson and Iain McCaig, exploring imagination and visual storytelling. Beyond podcasting, he excels as a 3D environment artist, winning awards such as the Games Job Live 2020 contest. Follow Gordon on LinkedIn for updates on his latest projects. Join this episode to discover Gordon's journey into 3D arts, gaming and his commitment to empowering the creative community. Elevate your online presence with the help of Trailblazed, your (and our) favourite digital marketing agency. ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://trailblazed.digital/⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you enjoy the show, please, consider supporting it on Patreon or by buying a virtual coffee (or chocolate). ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/ProducedByPodcast⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.buymeacoffee.com/producedby⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠ Boost your creative career by joining our new Skillshare course and feel free to let us know how you liked it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://skl.sh/3Rh7ZtY⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date, get the latest news and much more. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7092551882589528065⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect with Gordon: https://linktr.ee/geoart  Digital Artcast: https://tr.ee/SE8NpuTYDB  Connect with the host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow the podcast: Links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠ Web: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://produced-by-podcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://instagram.com/produced_by_podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT5LHnM6YCaeVzIr0WatOsw⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/41BiG5YvGIgITz1N14hF2E ⁠⁠⁠ Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/produced-by/id1684669642⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ If you enjoy listening to the podcast, please, leave a review on your podcast app, subscribe and share it with your friends. You can also send us a message and share any feedback, advice and tips for guests. About Produced By: Produced By unveils captivating stories of courageous people who set out to pursue careers in highly competitive fields, despite often challenging circumstances. Enter the spotlight with our guests and get inspired, whether your interests are in the creative industries, personal growth or you simply want to have fun. Listen to individuals who represent a wide range of professional backgrounds, geographic locations and career stages. So come along to follow their adventures and learn from life's experiences as we kick off on this epic journey. Thanks for listening and see you soon! Connect with Tomas:X: https://x.com/TomasLoucky⁠⁠⁠Stan: https://stan.store/TommenLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠⁠Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠⁠Unproduced:Newsletter: https://unproduced.substack.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@unproducednotesSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/033Ddo8ibDlLYoaP7FFLIWMore:Links: https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://producednewsletter.substack.com/⁠The Podcast Club: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/25420030/Tools & gear that support the show:Metricool: https://f.mtr.cool/HRJBZKRiverside: https://riverside.sjv.io/vDnDodFavikon: https://www.favikon.com?fpr=tommenRa Optics: https://ra-optics.myshopify.com/discount/TOMMEN?rfsn=8803777.591d19JamX: https://jamx.ai/podcasters-offer?ref_id=e02d48af-ef66-4e76-b804-c2e8d282a8bfSome links are affiliate links, which means I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. If you find them useful, using these links helps keep the podcast running. Thank you!  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello and welcome to Produced Buy. Just quickly before we begin, if we enjoy the show, please consider supporting it by joining our Patreon. You can choose from a list of memberships and we'll receive some exciting rewards. Thank you and back to the episode. Hello Gordon, thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Great to see another person in the podcast space, especially within BFX and arts. We're definitely a rare breed, so it's good to have another companion in the fight. Thank you. So, Gordon, can you please introduce yourself? Sure. I'm Gordon Neal. I am a production artist currently at Heavy Cav Studios, which are based in Montreal, Canada. And yeah, the studios just formed, kind of off the back of what's been going on with the layoffs. And yeah, we're working on our first title that's yet to be announced. And it's basically just kind of all secretive at the moment,

because yeah, we're literally at the bare bones of just starting to design stuff and talk about ideas. But yeah, I've been there now for about two months, but previously I've worked at other companies like Fabricated Madness and Los Angeles and a couple other companies. Stuff I can't talk about, stuff I can't. But, yeah, I've been in an industry for about five years now.

But I started podcasting back in 2016, like we talked about. So, you know, I've been around games VFX and artists for a while. Yeah. I always like to discuss your background. So can you tell us where we come from and maybe something about your childhood? Yeah. Oh, God, okay.

Let's think. So my background basically is that I was like a data systems engineer for a long time. Sorry, what is it? Data systems engineer. So like I was dealing with exchanges for the railway in the UK, which would handle like phone calls and data transfers for computers. So I've done that for close to 10 years. So basically when I left high school, I kind of had a choice to get a job or, you know, go to college.

So I kind of done both at the same time. I went to college initially when I left high school to study journalism. And I was kind of going to do games because games are a huge part of my childhood. So I was going to maybe do games media and cover games in that sense, like be a journalist for games. Because I always used to love writing and writing reports about games. I'd do my own little game reviews in my bedroom, you know, in my spare time on my computer.

I think at one point I wrote a whole five or six-page review for Warcraft 3 when it came out back in the day. So it was a huge thing. But yeah, I basically got a job as an engineer when I was 18 and it was like a what they call a modern apprenticeship in the UK.

So it was like I would think I've done like three and a half years of training and going down and getting certified and then started as a junior part of my way up. Always played games, always was creative in some way,

whether it was music or drawing or painting. I used to do album covers for some of my friends or like I would do posters and stuff for people and make logos for my cousins, bake sales and stuff like that, are things they were doing at the weekend. So, yeah, I was always the creative one in the family. But then obviously now digging deeper into my family,

I found out of a couple of my uncles, my mum and other people were creative in the younger youth that didn't pursue it as adults. So yeah, I basically worked up until it was like 26, 27, and then decided I wanted to go and do something else. It was basically born out of, I used to watch video game documentaries on, you know, CDs and DVDs because, you know, I used to get collectors editions of games and they would come with DVDs where you could watch how the game was made. And then I kind of thought, you know, I fancy doing that, but how would I go? in the industry like how would I enter it and then I saw that art was a thing and people were making

concept art and you know drones and all that kind of stuff so I basically thought I'll leave I'll go back to art school at the time because this was 2012 I think so there wasn't even like art station nobody was doing online courses there was nothing the internet was still fairly no fairly new to the world but like the amount of stuff that was on it it just wasn't at that level yet and YouTube was only about four years old if even that for people haven't even got the hang of uploading stuff or uploading tutorials so I emailed

a guy called Matt Gaser he was a concept artist in California he had worked on the Star Wars Clone Wars series back in the day and many other things for Lucasfilm and I emailed him sent my big long email and said what I need to do

basically to become an artist in the industry and he sent me a big long response about six months later so yeah That was kind of my starting in industry. It's nice. Did you get a reply? Oh, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically.

Yeah, I got a reply six months later. It took him a while, but yeah, you go back to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, it was a funny story about that because the studio I worked for in LA, Fabricative Madness was Matt's Studio. So, like, about 10 years later, he hired me. He was one of his first hires, so that was really interesting. That was a great conversation because, yeah, we were friends for many, many years.

And then, yeah, he basically hired me. So that was crazy. But yeah, so, yeah, my childhood was full of gaming, drawing, cartoons, kind of the stereotypical upbringing, you know, watching cartoons on a Saturday morning, playing my action figures, playing video games. My parents got me into gaming very early. Like, I think I was five or six years old when I got my first console, and it was a Nintendo, and I got Legend of Zelda.

I think it was my first game. So that's one of my favorite series ever, obviously, Zelda. So there's a lot of people who are of my, but yeah, Zelda Mario and then got any Mega Drive, Sega, Dreamcast, Nintendo 64 all the consoles PlayStation. So, yeah, so, yeah, game is always a huge part of my life and the same with art, so I tried to combine the two

when I came in in industry. And unless I've missed it, but why did you actually decide to focus on the care of artists rather than journalist? I think at the time, well, I didn't do journalism for long, I've done it for about six months, and then I got my job offer with, at the time, it was Tallas Telecom, so they were a French company,

they owned the infrastructure over here, and they offered me the modern apprenticeship when I was 18, so I just thought, it's money, you know, it's a job. Like, I'll be able to buy more games, I'll be able to buy myself, you know, have a wage, I'll have money, and move out, you know, so, and when you're 18, that's kind of like, that was most of my focus, was just gaining independence and have my own life.

But yeah, basically, I kind of avoided doing that because I just felt like the engineering stuff was just more solid at the time and wouldn't take me as long to get into the industry and it was an immediate start. Although through the years on the side I was also doing journalism for other websites and I had a YouTube channel for many years shut down now. I've kind of killed all that content but yeah I had many interviews up to do views on like events I used to go to events and report live and interview people and some articles for some websites and stuff like that so yeah there was a whole bunch of stuff. done basically early on that was still feeding that passion of like gaming and being creative and also

keep in mind in the stream of what was going on um but when i left my job i didn't think i wanted to go back in the journalism never really crossed my mind but i think i just like the idea that with art you were creating those stories and creating those characters and you had a real like on the ground level job of like making worlds and making these games that people would eventually play and you be part of that story. So yeah, like that was a bigger thing for me at the time. And also like I painted and drew in my spare time and, you know, done some basic 3D modelling and, you know, other stuff. So it's just it felt more natural to go into that path and journalism. Although I still enjoy writing to this day, like I still write more on stories and write short stories and, you know, I'm trying at the moment

write like a small, almost TV series. Um, but on the side. So yeah, yeah, I just, I do a lot of things like between music art and writing like I do a ton of stuff I can't really sit still I think it's ADHD in my brain where I just like something new and different and exciting all the time and as you mentioned that you're trying to write a short or TV series is that something that maybe later on you would like to even try to adapt maybe for I mean I'd love to like I mean it's one of these things where I think writing is even more difficult than art like it's even more competitive there's fewer jobs, you know, you've really got to win the lottery to get something adapted.

I mean, I'm lucky that I'm writing something that is within the world of Star Wars. So... Like a SIFAR. Yeah, so it's basically, yeah, it's like, it's a short story based on some of the High Republic stuff. So it's like

back when the Jedi were at their prime and I'm kind of writing through that world, like, you know, because I've read a bit about it. So I'm trying to interpret my own version of like things that happened. And because I know people, who are close to people who made that and the original series and stuff like that or people who've worked with Lucas.

It's one of these things that like, I mean, it's obviously a straight shot that it might never happen, but, you know, I'm in the advantageous position because of the podcast. I know people, you know, like Ian McKay, you know, and stuff like that, so that I could always even pass it on to Ian and have him interpret it because he worked on Star Wars, obviously he worked on the prequels and he worked on all the new ones.

So, you know, he might have a read of it and think, oh, this is pretty good. But then, I think, also Ian's the thing where he's tried to distance himself from Star Wars, in the sense that it's been such a big part of his life, but he also doesn't just want to only be known for that. But then he would definitely read stuff. And then, like, I don't know, he might pass it on to George Lucas, who knows?

But, yeah, no, but, like, I mean, it's more just an exercise to try and write and be good at writing and have another outlet for being creative. But I know Star Wars so well, and I know the world so well, and I love it, that it's naturally what I want to write about initially. But then, like, he was talking to me when I talked to him about it, it was like, you know, writing Star Wars initially, but then once you get to be able to write to him,

you're going to write your own stories, write your own world. Because that's what George did. He just wrote his own version of what he wanted to see on the screen. So, yeah, it's hard when you want to start out because you start out by copying. You start out by trying to imitate other things you've seen, but then eventually you have to break that barrier and move into doing your own stuff, which is the harder part

because then you have to rely solely on yourself. I noticed that you are a fan of Star Wars, thanks to your tattoo on your arm. Oh, yeah, yeah. I like it, yes. VB8 and I've got an R2D2 phoned about my arm somewhere

Yeah, yeah I've Most pop culture things I'm quite stereotypical When it comes to things that I like But I mean Anime games Sci-fi

You know Lord of the Rings Like I mean I'm Culture is something that I love But Star Wars I think for me Has always been the thing

Where I've loved that more than Star Trek I've loved it more than Lord of the Rings Like my partner She is obsessed with of the Rings in the sense that it's one of the best fantasy genres that she loves, you know, she can throw her shell and Lord of the Rings, especially Tolkien stuff because it's so deep, there's so much to it, there's so much lore, there's so much world building,

versus Star Wars, which she maybe feels is a bit shallow because the movies have really only existed in their own plane, but probably then doesn't understand that outside of that, the TV series, the books are things that expand in that universe and, you know, the Clone Wars TV series because that was really a big part of my childhood. Yeah. And before we come back to your career, what do you think about, you know, kind of the direction of Star Wars that it's been going recently? Because there are quite a few...

This is such a difficult question because I know people who work on it. So I don't want to badmouth stuff. And not that would bad mouth it, no, like, look, I've been, you know, I went to see my first Star Wars movie when I was like 11 years old. you know and at the time I think it was the prequels and this was before obviously I'd then go into the original three and then into the lore beyond that

and some of the books and comics I've read over the years and the bounty hunt or stuff so I've been a fan all my life but I feel the industry and the way consumers now look at the stuff it's become quite toxic you know because I think people have an idea built up in their head about what Star Wars should be

and when it doesn't meet that expectation then automatically people will slate it and You know, I really hated the fact that Daisy Ridley and John Boyega and a lot of those people just got like, you know, unbelievable hate from the public because of their deputation of the people in those, those movies when really they were just actors doing a job. It was nothing to do with him. You know, I've heard some inner work and stuff about how it was conceived and how production design went. But, you know, at the end of the day, everybody was on that set and everybody was in the art department trying to make the best version of what they could make. Nobody wanted to make

a subpar product. Nobody wanted to make anything bad. I sometimes feel like there was too much going on. There was too many things trying to be done at one time. And then, you know, it kind of got lost towards the end. In my opinion, I think one of the biggest things for Star Wars at the moment is it needs to leave the Skywalker legacy. It needs to walk away from that family.

You know, I think we've done enough of those characters and, you know, with Ray and Luke and Leah that and you know, you know, it was a weird thing where it just felt almost weird sometimes with the AI stuff that was coming in and they were replacing people's faces because they were trying to keep a story going and I felt like, you know, a lot of the stories I've really loved from Star Wars over the last couple of years. I've been things that haven't focused on that universe and, you know, like Star Wars visions, the animated series was one of my favorite things that I've watched in Star Wars worlds in the last couple of years because the animations were also so incredible. But they also focused on new stories and things that were out with the, um, the, the Skywalker family. I think there's also really been some great TV success as well. Mandelorian, of course, has done really well, and again, I think that's because it was

brand new and it wasn't focusing on things that had come before it. Asoka, which I've still to watch, but everybody I've seen who loves Star Wars, who have the same kind of opinions of me, has also enjoyed it, so I think I want to watch that at one point. But like, I know that Boba Fett didn't do too well, and that was a kind of thing as well, and I know

it's a mixed bag. I feel like they need have a vision going forward, but I now know with Kathleen Kennedy at the helm is now the new CEO of Disney, because she's replaced Bob Eager. Oh, she replaced him? Yeah, Bob, as far as as, you may have to watch the fact I check this

with me, but I'm pretty sure I just saw the other day that she has now taken the mantle of the president of Disney. So it's something recent? Yeah, like only in the last couple of weeks, I saw the article, so. Because I saw that there were some kind of behind the scenes,

bedless to try to get down. But in the end I read that probably he stayed there but I'm not sure what are the latest news. Yeah, again I'd have to fact check it but yeah, I'm sure I saw an article recently that Kathleen Kennedy has taken over as President of Disney. Like she's

moved up. She was obviously heading Lucas film at the time and then I think she's now moved up again but yeah. I know they will have a good vision for what's going forward but I think they need to... It kind of felt like at the time, like the way Marvel has went now with like the Marvel franchises and like comic book stuff that there's just

there's so much saturation in it. It's getting too um, the water's getting too too many. They need to bring it back and maybe stop for a couple of years and try and build the stories back up and really think about what they're going to do next rather than just turning out constant stuff. Although I've been watching

the X-Men animate series recently and that's been absolutely blown my mind. That's incredible. That's really well done. X-Men 97. I was just curious to hear opinion about the Starvers from like a fan like you are. Although I watched the films, but I'm not such a diehard fan. So I was just curious. Yeah, I mean, like definitely.

I just, I hope it comes back to the original source material stuff. I think it just like it needs to find itself again and create new worlds and new stories, but like try and be true to the stuff that's came before it, but not obviously like just repeat and rehash the stuff that sort of the game. But yes, it's a very complex subject. Yeah, Star Wars is definitely a sore point for a lot of people right now. So yeah, yeah, that's understandable. So to come back to your career when you decided to pursue art,

can you continue where we left off once you decided to leave your job and go for this? Right. Yeah, I mean, oh God, if we were to start. So, yeah, so I basically, I was working on a job I hated, basically. you know, not because mostly the people that I work with. I mean, there was definitely some people I didn't go on with. But it was mostly the work. I just didn't enjoy the work.

And it was monotonous and boring. You know, because I work in Scotland, you know, and I'm from here, you know, the weather. That was actually my question where I'm from, because I was curious based on your accent. Yeah, Scotland. Yeah, so from the top of the UK. Yeah, so Scotland, I've been born and bred in Scotland all my life. And yeah, the weather here is really bad. So a lot of my work was outside work.

outside lifting and shifting and digging holes and because as much as we done the tech side of stuff we also had to maintain cables that run under the ground so it was just part of the job so I was on call one year the first year I think I was on call and I got called out I think it was it was Christmas Eve or Christmas morning and at that time it was when we'd had like one of the worst snowstorms for many many years so I was out there for

something close to 18 hours and it was just horrific I got called out and like like two or three in the morning. I had to go fix something, you know, that had failed. But it was a huge, huge job because what somebody had done was they had burnt a bunch of cables deliberately. I don't know. I think we ever got to the bottom of who done it, but it was pretty horrific. And there was loads of work needed done. So I was on, and I was young at the time, excuse me, I was young at the time.

So, you know, I didn't have a lot of experience. And I was basically a set out there in my own when, you know, I really couldn't do it in my own because I just didn't have that much experience. So I finished that. during Christmas. Oh yeah like I finished that shift and I came home and I mean like I said 18 hours I was out you know maybe less

maybe more but driving home I was so tired I was afraid I was going to fall asleep at the wheel so I was just like I just need to you know rolled the windows down and was blasting the AC and the video and trying to get home so luckily I was only about you know half an hour to go home but like yeah I got home and I kind of collapsed at the

bottom of my stairs and my partner at the time basically dragged me up the stairs and threw me in the shower where I just basically turned a shower on full blast hot because I need to get a heat back in me. I was so cold. And I was sitting there afterwards in my pajamas and my robe and watching TV. And I was just saying to myself, I don't want to keep doing this. I don't want to keep putting my body through this.

And no even that. Because I thought, you know, years down the line where I'm older, it's going to get even worse. It's going to be harder. So I started to think about what I want to do or if I could somehow get another way out of it. So, yeah, I talked to my parents at the time. and they were kind of supportive and, you know, my dad said, well, you can leave, but you have to have something to go to, you have to either a job or, you know, a place in college or university. So because I didn't have any experience at the time, I didn't have any portfolio, I had to basically

go into an entry-level course in a local kind of community college, like local to where I was. And it was with, like, people who had just left high school, so they were like, you know, 18, 19 years old, 20, and some other people who maybe just came in a wee bit later, so there were 22, 23. but yeah I'd done that for a year and then I had to do a course after that and all they had at the local level at that time was like a graphic design course essentially

was what they called at the time visual communication they changed the name which ended up changing back because people said what the fuck is visual communication you know something but yeah graphic design was basically what we're doing and then I've done that for two years and then at the end of the two years funny looking back now to where I am now and what I'm doing but I say to myself you know I'll be a

graphic designer I'll go work a graphic design shop I'll go work you know some kind of creative outlet where I can do logos and you know header notes and websites and stuff like that but then I think two weeks before maybe a month or a wee bit longer I was close to finishing basically my two years and I said to myself what am I doing? I didn't leave my job to go be a graphic designer if that's no what I wanted to do. So I basically

last minute got into UCAS clearing which is basically when all the university places are kind of gone and their space is still available. They'll put their offers up in clearing to see that you can get at uni. If you take this course there's a space here. So I applied to a place

called UWS which is in Paisley. It's a place in Scotland and really good uni actually, lovely. They're really good actually lovely. They're really great engineering university, so but they had a place in a 3D course and it was 3D animation and the only reason I really

got behind them was because when I phoned the course director, I talked to him about the placement of people into jobs and how they were finding that and he said they had links to a local studio in Glasgow which is called Axis animation. I think it's just Axis studios now but so Axis

were an outsourcing company. They basically would do game trailers for people and you know Cinematics. So where people and games companies would focus on building the game would usually always outsource the cinematic and story stuff to other companies. So Axis worked on. At the time, they had just done a bunch of stuff for Horizon Zero Dawn and a couple of other games.

One of their most famous things years back was they done the original Dead Island trailer at E3, which was huge at the time. I don't know if you remember it, it was a little girl eating their dad, but then they play it in reverse from her going from a zombie and a wee girl again. But yeah, so they done that years back. so and then when I got there I ended up so what basically does was I went to the course

and I got into university and I done I went into third year basically and then the first summer holiday I had when most people were going away or chilling or not doing anything I saved all my money up to go down to an event and London called industry workshops and uh went there, met John and Jill

who were at the time part of access Jill was the kind of lead recruiter John was the art director and uh I said to him I'm off in Scotland like I'm looking to get in the industry and they were like, all right, great, you know, maybe she'd come up to the shootout one point and you don't have a wee look around. Fantastic, great, yeah.

So, initially workshops also where I met, like, I done my first podcast just before I went to the event and I interviewed my friend Titus Lunterner, who's a magic the gathering artist and worked on a bunch of other stuff. I'm super famous now, but like back then, he was just starting out. But yeah, I did my first episode, so a lot of people knew who I was at the time. A couple of people were listening to it, so they knew me.

And then I went down there. Like, I met the people who, like, from Savage, who basically invented Procreate and that was just like a demo at the time it was basically just on the iPad you could play with it for a couple hours but it wasn't finished I met a lot of the guys from CD Project Red who worked home in Poland

and a lot like Marcyon Kleski Marik Maje like all those guys who worked on the Witcher series and they went on to work in cyberpunk so a lot of those guys I met early on but yeah I went up to Axis had a tour and then managed to land an internship and that was the first time they took on interns

in about five years, so I was really honored for that. When it was there, they were working on a TV series for Netflix called Happy. You've probably never seen it's based on a comic, but it was really incredible at the time. It seemed to be the VFX they'd done. It was this guy who talks to this little blue donkey, and they made the little blue donkey that flew around the screen. But they were also working on Warhammer, I think it was Donny War III,

the RTS game, League of Legends, they were doing a cinematic for them, and they were also working on all the cinematics for Destiny 2 before it least this was just before Destiny 2 was about to be chipped and they were doing all the cinematics for it. So yeah, I got to be involved in a bunch of stuff there but I was mostly doing admin stuff it was mostly like an internship

to help with admin like booking hotels and recruiting people from jobs and getting people on to work. But then you got to see behind the scenes, you know, you get to sit at people's desks and watch them work on stuff and spaceships and all that kind of stuff and I met a bunch of cool people there but I still talked to now and I'm friends with for many years so

and yeah basically that was uni mostly And then towards the end, just before I graduated, I got offered a job at a company called Red Essence Games. And they were based in Philadelphia and the US, and they were making one of the first games also. A lot of your industry experience early on is all indie games are people working for their own studio stuff

and then you get hired on to do a little bit of contract work. So, yeah, I worked for Red Essence for about a year and a half. Once I left and just garnered from job to job since I've been there. So, yeah, you know, working freelance, working contract work. I worked for a third party vendor that worked on a huge AAA game that I got to work on that I can never talk about. But yeah, then I got to work for Fabricative Madness.

Matt was building his own studio. He reached out to me. We were friends for many, many years. And then he took me on as a production artist there. Worked for him for about a year and a half as well. His studio unfortunately folded because they run out of money as most studios do when they start up. More contract work, more stuff working on games again.

One of them didn't come out, when they got cancelled. and then I've recently started with another studio recently heavy cab in Montreal and yeah those guys found me through LinkedIn really interesting because it's involved in a bunch conversations about the layoffs and they were like formed their own studio, they want to be part of it and I was like

sure so yeah it's been a real roller coaster just jumping from job to job which is like most creatives you know you kind of just try to survive by pop scotch and across the pond as much as you can so yeah that's my entire entire last 10 years basically and about as condensed as I can make it

but yeah. And to come back to your internship, I guess that is something that probably a lot of students want to get while they are studying. So what advice would you give to get it, you know, to stand out from the crowd or even to increase the chances of getting

accepted into it? I would say basically just do everything you can to stand out. I mean, people always ask me this thing. I get these emails constantly in the podcast and people reaching out to me, but I just tried to do things that I was good at and for me at the time it was talking

I can talk forever you know I'm really enjoy conversations I enjoy getting to know people and enjoy getting to know the nitty-gritty of their life and you know what makes them tick and how they are as people and what they love and I think it's the overshared button of like the ADHD in my brain it's the thing of like you try to empty your soul into someone else and talk about like this is what I love this is what I'm passionate about

I want to do this with sometimes obviously it's too much for people and it's really intense and I understand that fully for being you know someone who you know no official diagnosed yet I'm working on that but like who I think I think I'm neurodivergent so it's a thing where like I think

there's patterns there where I can see where I'm an oversharer and stuff like that and procrastinate you know people always talk about you get so much stuff done where do you find the time I mean half the time I'm just trying to keep up with myself because I'll leave things to the last minute or I forget things so I've got a system now that I've worked for many years you know as much as I'm waiting

for a diagnosis and medication, I'm also trying to use a lot of tools in my day-to-day that, you know, like, sticking, literally sticking notes on my monitor and saying that I need to finish this thing on Monday, or I need to interview this person on Monday, and I've got calendars that, you know, the calendar thing that I introduce to you, like, stuff like that. So, which is good as well, because I think it's very important to highlight that if you are, if you think you're neurodivergent and you haven't had a diagnosis yet, or you have had a diagnosis and you are neurodivergent and have something like ADHD or autism, I'd have spoke to so many people who have that in their life and have also succeeded as artist,

it's been difficult, didn't get me wrong, because you have to obviously adjust for neurotypical people and the industry isn't really built for us, for people. You know, because they're talking about a classification of ADHD being a disability, because it essentially is your brain isn't wired the same as everybody else. You don't interpret the world the same as other people, and that in a sense is a disability, because you're at a disadvantage as everybody else is at an advantage because their brain works correctly

and processes information correctly. But like, yeah, so it's been really great the last couple of studios have been, they've been really patient with if I'm maybe forgetting something last minute or I'm, you know, I've maybe know, got around to something, they're like, yeah, sure, don't worry. I mean, like, obviously people don't have infinite patience, but definitely

when I've been like, look, can I just have one more day? They've been like, sure, yeah, no worries, it's okay. So that's been what I've been seeking out more because I've had offers from other companies when it's a bigger, you know, like I've not really talked about this publicly, but I had a huge offer from a studio down south in England.

And it basically would have been a full-time gig in a studio, which is something that I've been pushing for for a while. But, you know, it just at the time felt too much. I was dealing with a lot at home. You know, I've talked about this a bit, but my mum had just got diagnosed with cancer, and, you know, I was dealing with that as well. And kind of I was in the middle of a breakup,

up and I was moving house and you know it was a lot of stuff going on in my personal life basically and when the offer came along at the time it felt like I was turning down a huge opportunity but in retrospect now it was the best thing I ever chose to do because it gave me the space to get better basically and find myself and try and work out things in my life and get an even playing field again before I jumped in and you know the guys have always told to me and say that the door will always be open for that so I might at one point jump ship again and go somewhere else but yeah I think this is always a thing that people talk about that people don't talk about is you have to really guard your mental health early on and make sure that you're looking after yourself because

most companies, most companies will not look after you or not give a shit about your conditions. They'll just want you to work and produce something. So finding those niches of studios that are really focused on the people is hard and which is what I think also we're experiencing now with the shift in AAA and the layoffs. People are sick of being treated like crap and one. to form their own safe spaces where they can do good work. So, yeah, basically, yeah. If you want to boost your online presents, check out our digital marketing agency called Trailblaest.

You can also enroll in a Skillshare course, called the 10 Tips on How to Succeed in Your Creative Career, which was inspired by the podcast. Lastly, make sure to subscribe to our weekly newsletter called Creative Spotlight to stay up to date with the show and more. Links are in the show notes. thanks yeah I think it's

probably especially relevant to the effects industries I'm not sure when it comes to games but when it comes to films when you know there are a lot of overtime and stress because of deadlines and stuff like that's even worse even worse than games yeah games are bad

but film the film industry and the way that you know the outsource places work it's just you know if you're not hitting the mark after one day people will just literally fire you. Like it's, you know, and the,

the turnover of stuff is so quick. Like, I watched a guy in TikTok who's part of the VFX industry and he worked on the Flash film. And he was like, if the VFX looks like it took two days, like two weeks to make, it's because it took two weeks to make.

You know, he's like, that's how long we had to turn that shot around, you know? And yeah, it's just getting, everybody's racing to the bottom, basically. They're all undercutting each other with price. And then they'll be like, sure, we can do 115 shots for, like $50,000, you know, or whatever

it's going to be $500,000. And then the Shadows say, well, it's actually, I normally agree for 115 shots, but it needs to be 200 shots now. And they're like, oh, that's fine, we'll take it on enemy, don't worry, but, and then it's, yeah, because I have a lot of people, well, some of my closest friends working the film in this day, and Ian Victor, shout out Ian, Ian, Ian's a Matt

painter and husband for many years, he worked on a bunch of stuff. And yeah, the stories he's told about just rushed deadlines and managers that just didn't give a shit. And, yeah, so games is, games is difficult at at the moment, but films, yeah. so I have no idea what is it like in games industry can you tell us more about it

you mean versus like VFX and film yeah for example because I know more what is it like in film and I spoke with people from industry but not really from the games so if you can yeah I mean my experience is limited obviously because you know I haven't been in long but I haven't had the podcast I have spoke to people at nearly every level

you know, from art directors and creative directors all the way down to people who've just started their first job. Games is different because it's long form. So whereas you might in the space of like five years working 20 different films, for people in games, you're working on one game, one complete vision for many, many years. So like one of my buddy's raft,

who works, he worked at Santa Monica, he's at Netflix now, but he worked on the God of War franchise, the newest one and the one previous. Yeah, like basically he was building those for multiple years, like the first one I think to be close to four years and the second one was about three. So it was nearly 10 years of his life at one point

in one place making one genre of game essentially, two games over 10 years. But like, yeah, so it's a big commitment as games. You've really got to be invested in the culture and the company and the vision also. So it's hard to go and work at a game studio where you really don't believe in the game because it may seem like a job at the time

but then eventually it might come to a point where you're really not performing at your best because you don't really believe in the vision of the studio or the people who are working in it. But, you know, games in general is, I think, a friendlier place to work, I think, because people are more like-minded and they have a culture that is accepting of, like,

you know, people on the spectrum, the community, LGBTQ, all that kind of stuff. You know, it's very welcoming. You know, like, it's obviously not without its problems. You know, we've had a whole thing of, like, recently, the last 10 years, last five years even, of, you know, sexual harassment and sexual assault and things like that.

Game studios, so it's been pretty horrific. And the whole, you know, like more of the game stuff I've heard is more positive than the film stuff. The film stuff is definitely like people are worked to death and sleeping under their desks versus like games where like, you know, most studios will generally like let you have time off if you need it

if you need to, you know, go there's a family emergency or your kids need something like, it'll generally be quite, you know, welcome into, you know, under the guys obviously of, you need to get to, get your work done. But if you need a couple hours, sure, like, it's no big thing. So, yeah, I think that was good as what I liked about Santa Monica as well, because Santa Monica Studios were such a huge studio, but, you know, the guys I spoke to there were, like, the culture is incredible,

especially around families. If you're having, like, your first kid or you have kids, like, people are very open to the fact that, like, maybe need time off or you need to take a day off or whatever. You know, it was never an issue. So, yeah, and they have great rooms. They have arcades and stuff like that and free meals. And, you know, even when I toured Riot Games, when I went to LA and I got the tour the guys at the time who were working on Valorant. No, that I didn't know because they couldn't talk about it, but then obviously it comes out two years later

they were working on Valorant. But, like, yeah, so, yeah, studios will go above and beyond sometimes to make people feel like they have a good place to work, which is great. And I think that's where games are different, is that it's more of a family atmosphere and it's a long haul versus, like, a short-term contract. And again, not sure to what extent you know,

but can you compare the salaries if one industry is better paid than the other one, or it's similar or you don't know? It's similar. I mean, if you're a lead one place and you're a lead another place, you'll roughly, you know, negotiate the same kind of wage.

Film can be a bit different, I think, depending, obviously, on the country, because countries different as well. So, like, you know, the UK versus the US, obviously is the biggest, you know, gap that people see because the UK at the moment is, the UK in general is, fuck. It's like the whole country right now is in a bit of a downward spiral.

But yeah, like our wages are horrific. Like, I mean, there was VFX studios I know locally who were doing stuff and their entry level pay was 18,000 pounds per year, which is no great. You know, it's about 20 odd thousand euros. And for a junior position, sure, but, you know, some guys I know in the VFX industry in America, especially in L.A.,

but L.A. Ellie's different because it's so expensive to live there. But, you know, average, even take the games industry, like, an average game industry starter salary over here is maybe like $20,000, $30,000, if you're lucky. But in the games industry in America, it's like $60,000, $70,000, depending on the studio

again. But, yeah, but, like, between even just games and film, yeah, I feel like they're evenly matched. Yeah, you get a bit here and there and otherwise, but they're more or less the same amount of money. Yeah. And as we discussed that,

when you work on games, it's over a longer spans of time. So I wonder then, as you said, you changed your jobs quite frequently. So was it because you worked on games that took shorter spend of time, or maybe there are different reasons for you switching? It's mostly because I'm starting out again. It's mostly because I'm leaving. I have left a career and I'm starting out from the bottom again. So a lot of the early stuff I'm doing is like contract work.

It's like you would come in for two or three months. you would do one thing and you would go back out because they need like a bunch of assets made really quickly and they need like hire a bunch of people just to get that pushed out and finish so you come in for a couple of months you finish your job and you go but then obviously if you do a good enough job you come back again which I've done you know

I've had contracts that have expired and then I've had maybe a month in between and they come back and say right we need a bunch more stuff right okay great um so yeah there's a bunch of studios like that that basically um we'll rehire you constantly but then obviously that eventually leads to a studio position. Well, they'll say the contract work you've done was great. Can we just bring in full time in the house?

But again, it's really difficult because when I graduated in 2018, I spent like a year traveling and meeting people and going to events. I went to Los Angeles. I went to playgrounds and went to Poland. I went to France. I went to, you know, Munich and Germany.

I went to a bunch of places and went to all these events and talked to people and go guests for the podcast. I got to meet people at Ralph Gazette, you know, who's a huge industry Icon and meet all these different people and then get bond these friendships and stuff right to THU for the first time stuff like that so that was my first year basically and then um it was great for the connections and establishing oh yeah like the networking stuff's been incredible but i mean it's the difficulty also was that i was trying to rely at the time more on

connections than my actual work ethic um i don't mind working obviously i work at the moment and i'm working on this stuff just now, but I was more thinking, like, if I know a bunch of people, that'll get me work. It did, to an extent, like, it did get me opportunities. Don't get me wrong, like, getting to work with Raff on his character school and getting to work with Matt on these game studio stuff.

But then you really, the portfolio is always king. It's always the thing that will get you work as, like, the portfolio. But then I started to do that. So when I came, at the end of 2019, when I finished my kind of tour and I'd done all this stuff, I was like, right, let's sit down and working all this stuff. and then even at the time, I think, just after 2020 hit, I was

basically getting offered a bunch of studio work as well, and then I got offered a position in Sweden. I can't really talk about the company because, you know, NDA and stuff, but they were basically going to fly me out for an interview, and it was looking like I was going to move to Sweden and work

in Sweden, and then COVID hit. And as soon as COVID hit, everything just plummeted, nobody was hiring, we couldn't bring people over because of COVID. and then they were like well we have to fill the role so we'll do it locally because if you live in Sweden and you can just be in Sweden and work in Sweden that's great so a lot of stuff just like overnight just died like people just stopped emailing me back and and I was lucky the art

director who worked at the game studio in Sweden was like keeping in contact he was like dude like I wanted to hire you I was so keen on your stuff and I really wanted to get involved in the project but COVID just happened our budget's kind of tight now because we're we're trying, you know, because we're walking remotely. So this extra money's had to come up to set people up remotely and get them computers and stuff to their houses. So it was just a nightmare. And then I lived through COVID, obviously, for two years.

And at the time, I was just taking contract work. And at the time, obviously, as well with the game industry, a lot of studios. I mean, now it's more common. But at the time, just nobody was set up for remote work and no people were even really thinking about it. It was a brand new concept. So, like for two years, maybe a year and a half,

I just basically was in the house constantly. working on my portfolio stuff. I was still doing the podcast. I was doing even more. Just to take up time. And it wasn't until 2020, 2021, August 2021. So about halfway through the year, Matt contacted me. And he was like, I'm starting a game studio. I've got a bunch of funding at the moment. Like, I'll be able to pay. Are you interested? So I said, yeah, I done an art test for them. And then they were happy. And then we went from there. And yeah, that was basically, So out of curiosity, were you willing to move to Sweden back then?

Would you go for it if you had to? Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about it more and more. And then when the offer came up, I was like, sure. Sweden's like a really good place to live in general. I mean, mostly the economy, like how people have public services work, how their healthcare works. They're very labor focused. So they look after the people who they work with.

Like the office, I was, you know, talking to the guy. The company I was talking to, they had an office. office where they had like baby changing facilities and daycare on site as well as like in stations like they were very like family focus as well like if we need if you need to watch the kids like we'll help we'll settle that for you we'll pay for that and um like a nice culture yeah yeah just people seemed really nice and friendly and it was very focused on like looking after people so um yeah and it was interesting as well you know it's just to think about you know going to work on that that project and it was it was it was a really interesting it was um if i would if i'd got the

job it would have been an incredible project because it was a huge IP so it was one of these things where I knew how important the IP was and I was like if I got this job that would be it like I wouldn't really need anything else so and then yeah basically that was that was kind of what was going to be happening I was going to be moving there and live my life in Sweden so Sweden's really great because it's got a bunch of good studios including massive entertainment who I'm a huge fan of to make like the division and the avatar game recently now they're going to launch Star Wars yeah because I was going to say that what you said about the country that I wouldn't mind living there either because it sounds like a good I know you're not talking about where are you based where are you located I'm now

I'm in London but in London okay but I'm from Czech Republic and I visited Stockholm and although just for a few days but I enjoyed it and just a few episodes back I actually spoke with someone who lives in Sweden right and he worked for VFX studio there and basically how you described the games company in the studio the games studio he described the same way VFX company from Sweden that he worked for that was a really nice culture that he enjoyed

working with those people so yeah so yeah so it's like a good place I mean as much as a bad mouth of VFX industry I think that's a more generalised view on it because you know there is a kind of crunch culture and people are generally unsatisfied by when they work and stuff like that but there are places mostly in Europe that look after people.

I'm more than thinking of like Pada and America where like that industry has been there for a while and they've got a lot of problems kind of buried deep in the systems but then I think the EU, especially places like Germany, have really good

VFX studios. I think in Germany there's a place called Fixer, Fixing or something like that. But like yeah, I know Germany in a couple other places are like that, they have really good studios that work on movies and stuff which are really well received. So yeah. Yeah. And based on what we discussed, is then working full-time for a studio something that you would want?

Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah. I've spent way too long, like in my bedroom essentially, you know, my spare room, working on stuff and, you know, doing contract work and doing meetings over Zoom and stuff. And this studio was great. I'm working for the now. The guys who work that are incredible. They're really, really, really awesome guys. but again it's talking to a screen there in Canada, I'm over here in Scotland so it's really difficult because yeah, you want to have that thing where you can just turn to somebody and ask them a question and spend five minutes having

a chat versus like having to book meetings and big Zoom calls and stuff. So yeah, like I mean I did have a, I've kind of talked about this briefly but I had a really big interview with Rockstar North at the start of last year and that was for a game design position

where is it best in Edinburgh Edinburgh okay yeah so so Rockstar North are in Edinburgh so Grand Theft Auto was born in Scotland it's a Scottish game

really I didn't know yeah yeah not not all people know that so yeah so DMA designs made the first game the top down and if you ever seen

Grand The Total one where it's like a top down perspective game yeah yeah we played it yeah primary

yeah so that was that was originally built and programmed in Dundee, Scotland. That was where they were based originally. And then, I think around the time

they were making GraniteithO3, which is the first 3D one, Take 2 Interactive, approached them, and they bought the license. And then, because Take 2 had the Rockstar Studios, they then branded that studio Rockstar North, which is up here in the north of the UK.

So then they made Grant FDOTO 3 completely by themselves. That was all made in Edinburgh. And then 4 was in Edinburgh again and then the last one they worked on but they got some help from other studios but again mostly in Edinburgh was five so granted I thought of five was like again Edinburgh based studio

and now for six it's a global thing so they're utilizing all the studios they have you know in India Canada in New York LA they're all working on GT6 so yeah so I was interviewing

with them the start of last year to work in Edinburgh with them on the team for doing game design and that kind of fell through which was disappointing because it was months and months of testing and then came down to me and one other person and another person got it so

but it's just the way the industry is it's you know what can you do but yeah so that was that was what was one I would love that position because it was in studio was 95 well no 95 like 106 but it was you know it was in studio it was full time it was Monday to Friday so yeah it would have been perfect so

I'm curious because when it comes to film industry there are some cities that are kind of hubs for example London in Europe are there cities like this for games as well that there are a lot of studios located it's mostly down south it's mostly

places that are either within London or outside just outside London I mean down south you've got creative assembly in London so they worked on the total war series also alien isolation bunch of other games they've recently had a game they were making which is like a first

version shooter three on three kind of thing but that got cancelled unfortunately and a lot of friends I know worked on that got laid off which is really shit and Sega also closed although they're not a UK studio they're European, the guys who made

I think the company heroes games I think they closed in that studio so you've got them you've a creative assembly you've got Rocksteady who made the Suicide Squad game that just came out recently but also the Arkham series they're based in London

you've also got splash damage who've worked on stuff like Gearsie War and other games. They're based on London also. Outside of London, in the kind of the north of England, you've got rare studios, rare who may, you know,

have made Sea of Thieves for many, many years now. They're based on there as well. Yeah, there's a bunch of really good game studios all dotted throughout the country, and Rockstar North up here in Edinburgh in Scotland. So, and, you know, there's a 4H or 4D. There's a company up here that does Minecraft for Microsoft. They're based in Dundee, Scotland,

so they make Minecraft for Microsoft. soft. Basically maintain it. They didn't make the game. They're maintaining it now. They're adding DLC. But they do a lot of stuff, obviously since not just sold it.

But yeah, so they're here as well. There's Blaz and Griffin. They're a local studio as well. They've done a bunch of stuff. Yeah, there's a bunch of studios dotted all through the UK. London, mostly in the North England and in Scotland. Yeah.

But then you've also got places like Ubisoft Reflections, which are in Newcastle in the UK. So they've made a bunch of games as well. I think they worked on the Assassin's Screw VR stuff. They're kind of a hub. so they help multiple projects, different projects and stuff. So I think they helped on, you know, skull and bones and a couple other different projects in Assassin's Creed.

And yeah, so, yeah, so there's a bunch of games studios. I could, I could rhyme off a couple more. But that's the biggest ones I know of. Yeah, yeah. And I know we discussed rock star games, but have you got a kind of favorite or dream studio that you would want to work for? It used to be Blizzard Games, but, or Blizzard Entertainment, but, you know, it's difficult with that now.

The reason is because I grew up with Blizzard. I grew up with all their games. You know, I grew up playing Warcraft back in the day. Like the original Warcraft, when it was an RTS game, like way back in the day, which also spawned off that mod, which made Dota 2. So I would play Dota as well, Defender of the Ancients. And then, of course, World Warcraft came out, and then things like Overwatch, Diablo.

Everything they've kind of made, I've always been a huge fan of. So that was always a dream. And I got to visit those guys in 2019. So when I went over to Los Angeles, I got to visit Blizzard Studios and Irvin and meet the guys on the teams and and, you know, talk to them about what their experience was like and, and I've played, I've played Harstone for, you know, they just had their recent, recently just had their 10 year anniversary and I've played that game for 10 years. So it's crazy to think, you know,

I've played that game for so long, but like, yeah, Blizzard and my eyes, I think I've always been the Disney of that side of the world that makes those Disney-esque games, you know, because Warcraft is essentially, like, I do that's like a Disney, it's like if Disney made those kind of epic games. And so I've always loved the studio. It's just difficult because the recent layoffs, the management changes, the whole, like, things that were going on with sexual harassment and everything. Like, there's a bunch of stuff, obviously, that's made it just a bit less great in my eyes. And especially the whole thing with that China thing where, you know, they banned the guy, the harsh stone guy who spoke out about the demonstrations in China.

And then they took his money off him. They took his prize money and stuff and they muted them. So like someone from the company? So basically what happened was there was a, there was a, there was a, Harsstone tournament in China, somewhere in, was it in Hong Kong or Beijing? I can't remember specifically, it was somewhere in China, but the person who won it basically held up a sign

saying, you know, like free Hong Kong at the time, because Hong Kong was changing from British rule back to the Chinese rule. Yes. And obviously at the time there was the protest going on. So they cut the feed at the time, and the guys who were the announcers on the Harsstone tournament, they got fired. And then the kids got obviously muted and stuff

but they took away his winning title, like he didn't win, they took it away from him, and they took all his prize money away. Okay, yeah. For speaking out. So basically that all happened, and then a lot of people I knew, like Glenn Rain and all those guys

who were over in Irvin, they were all outside the studio protesting, that they were saying they were disgusted with Blizzard and, you know, all this kind of stuff. So that was one instance of one thing that happened, you know, but over the last five or six years, you know, and since, I've known the guys at Blizzard,

since I started talking to them in 2018, there's been two major layoffs. There was a major layoff in 2019, and obviously, literally about three months ago, there was a massive huge layoff as well. At the start of the year, 1,900 people from Blizzard acquisition,

were it going to do lack of work, or was the reason? No, so it's, I mean, I don't think I've ever dived into the official reason why, but I think the actual reason was because of the restructure when Microsoft bought them. Yeah,

Because that was my next question. I know that Microsoft was about to acquire them, but I saw that... They have, they have acquired them. They acquired them, I think, last year, at the end of last year, everything went through. And then it seems really like double... No, I'm not sure. Two-Faced.

It seemed two-faced because Phil Spencer, who's the head of Xbox, he basically went to do an event at Buzzard where they had, like, food and drink and a bunch of party stuff. and it was a whole thing of like celebrating like Microsoft you know and Blizzard joining together and the whole thing and everybody was out drinking and celebrating and taking pictures and everything was great and then literally three weeks

later he laid off 1900 people now I think not all 1900 were from Blizzard I think it was close to like 500 people or something they go but there was still 500 people it was you know for it's like a quarter of their staff yeah and it was like because they cancelled basically they cancelled the project the Blizzard

was working on a very publicly known now they were working on a survival game kind of almost Warcraft like survival game but I think it was going to be like a Royal Rumble type thing like Fortnite where it was like you go in and you fight each other other tall ones so yeah so that got cancelled basically that got cancelled last minute

and because that project was cancelled everybody on that project was let go and you're talking these are people who like literally have picked up their life to move to California and then in a couple of months or a year's time they were let go and expected to either be deported back to their country or find new work or the visa we get taken away.

So it's definitely been a roller coaster for Blizzard. It still is kind of my dream studio. I still would love to work with them, but it's difficult because obviously the things they've went through recently, it's, you know, it's not being great. So I'll just have to see what the future brings. But I mean, I'd have to obviously think about it at the time, but never say no, you know.

And do you think that the acquisition by Microsoft is a good step or not a good? step maybe like in the long term. It's difficult to answer right now, but I think the thing that Microsoft has been doing, obviously, is building up studios and focused on buying studios. I get where they're going because years ago, obviously, was, no, Blizzard, sorry, Microsoft and Xbox specifically were really struggling for content. They were struggling to put games out.

You know, they were struggling to have E3s basically where they were shown off stuff that was good and people would want to buy an Xbox. of it. The first thing that Phil really buckled down on when he got to the studio and into his position was making sure GamePass was worth the purchase. So obviously he started just buying up Studios Left Right and Center and bringing

people's games that they'd already made two Game Pass and then it was a thing of not only do we need to bring games to Game Pass but we need to make sure of content going down the line. I think one of the biggest acquisitions they've done recently, no, recently in the last couple years was when they bought Double Fine Studios and put Cyclones on Game Pass and

so that was launching day one. and stuff like Starfield when they bought Bethesda. I feel like they could have had the money to save those jobs. I feel like they could have either displaced those people to other jobs or put them in other studios. I know it's difficult because obviously people have particular skills and specific jobs. So like sure, if one guy is working on a survival stylized game,

where do you put them if you fire them? There might not be another project like that in the company. So, but I feel like it was more a business acumen than it was a really well-thought. decision. It was a thing where they were like, you know, we need to report a gain, we need to report an increase. You know, the line must go up is always what the business people think. And I think by laying those people off just before the financial year comes in, which would have came in this month in April, they can then report to their shareholders. Oh, well, Xbox has increased by 4% this year.

You know, it was 3% last year. It's 4% this year. And, you know, Sven, I forget Sven's surname, I'd they apologize, but the head of Larry in studios basically who makes Baldur's Gate. He went viral and my post and LinkedIn been viral where I shared his speech about how shit the game industry is right now and how he's been fighting stuff like this, his whole life. And the greed is basically ruining the whole industry and we really need to get back to making video games and focus on the fun and the people and less on the profits. Like, you know, for a lot of big companies, you know, you could sell a million copies of a game And they still see that as a failure because it didn't sell two million.

You know, it didn't double the investment. So that's a failure in their eyes. But yeah, it's something we really need to work on as an industry. And I think that's why people are talking about unionizing. And that's a big talk right now. And there's a lot of people that are starting to do that. And we've known about unions in Europe and the UK for a long time. It's always been a thing that saved us.

So, yeah, it's a complex topic. I've been doing my best to really try and catch people as they fall. you know, like, I have a Discord at the moment that's got about 1,500 people on it, arts and developers. And they're basically people that I would put out a call on LinkedIn and say, look, I've got the safe space here. If you guys want to come in, we've got a job board,

we've got people talking about jobs. And there's actually a bunch of people on the Discord have actually started their own small indie dev and they're building their first game in my server. So like, there's a bunch of stuff going on. So, like, yeah, between that and the podcast, I'm trying to basically help as much as I can. And I only recently just put out an episode with Fernando Ferreiro

he's a UI artist at Blizzard he worked on Blizzard he's Diablo 4 sorry and the first 10 minutes was just I was talking about the layoffs and the last half an hour was I was talking about the layoffs because he was obviously right in the thick of that and had to say goodbye to a lot of people he worked for for years

so it's a bit of a sore point right now but yeah yeah a bit negative topic at the end but it's really nice that you do this with the Discord I didn't know that you help like it literally I think because you feel like it was like years ago when the black-life-smarter movement was happening.

And at the time, a lot of the people had met in the industry in the UK and the US, I also knew a lot of black artists. And they were also, you know, going through the stuff with the early rights and things that were happening because of the Trump and because of George Floyd and stuff like that. So I felt a bit powerless in the fact that, like, what could I do to help people? So I arranged a panel,

basically, of black African-American artists coming and talk about their experience in the US. and it was a great panel really got a great response but it's the same with this again with the layoffs it's like feeling powerless, wanting to help your friends wanting to do something to help the industry so the Discord was literally sitting with like

I think 200 people at the time that were just close friends and people I worked with and just a wee a community to just come together and talk and play games and hang out and I just literally was like well I've got it sitting here I might as well use it because I know I'm great at building communities and helping people come together

so I put the link out and then people just flooded in and now we're at 1,500 people and it's been a great big community. And like I said, people have now started a small indie dev in the server. They've started making their first game. So it's like anything I can do at this point to help. And I'm hoping that the podcast is also doing that. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.

I was going to say, Gordon, that as we are approaching one hour, I would suggest to finish for today and continue at some point with the next part because I also wanted to discuss. your work process, discuss more about your podcast, and I still feel like there is a lot of stuff to talk about. Yeah, so just... Yeah. So just to finish, do you want to promote yourself or where people can follow you?

Sure. I'll put a lot of these links in the description, I'd imagine, but yeah, you can search digital artcast on YouTube or Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, or just Google in general. we've been gone since 2016 so like at this point eight years nearly 10 years

a couple years down the line I'll be celebrating 10 years and doing a podcast but yeah we've a bunch of episodes we've over 100 episodes with different people have interviewed from the games industry films VFX loads of places so yeah so digital artcast is my podcast but then also you can find me on art station

I'm on Instagram as well I think as Gordon makes art I'll send all these links to you obviously and yeah you can just even search my name Gordon Neal you'll find a bunch of links to some of work and stuff like that So yes, it's a, I'm definitely online more, but I'm finding now, um, as I'm diving deeper into the games industry and taking on more and more work, I'm having to kind of retract a bit from socials because it's one,

obviously not great for my mental health right now because the world isn't a bit of a downward spiral. So it's hard to, you know, open your phone every two minutes and look at how shit the world is. But, um, but also just because I'm trying to focus more on my work, I'm trying to almost change disciplines at this point because, the stuff I'm doing at heavy cav, I can't talk about, is outside of what I'm doing some 3D stuff but I'm doing other stuff as well and I'm

enjoying that process more. So I'm thinking of kind of switching roles possibly so I'll see how that obviously pans out and we can catch up at one point again and have a whole new job but yeah, yeah I'm basically trying to do that and you know the more I do that the more I'm finding that I'm enjoying my quiet time

I'm enjoying time away from the mind away from the camera. I completely understand you. Yeah. It's a difficult balance you'll find as your podcast member gets bigger or you bring bigger and bigger people on, is that there's an expectation to keep going and producing regular episodes.

But I had a panic attack when I started the podcast back up and I had Fernando on. And I was like, I need to have an episode out next month. I was messaging people frantically. Like, you need to come on. I need a guest. I need a guest. And eventually I was like, what does it matter?

If I release one every month or, you know, five episodes a year, people will still listen to it, they'll still tune in, it'll normally marr. Because at this point, you know, I'm not getting like hundreds of thousands of views. I'm not getting 100,000 subscribers. You know, and when I came offline last year and I had to take a break, you know,

the messages that came in, the pouring of like support of like, you know, people who usually don't comment, but they were like, look, I don't usually comment, but like your podcast got me through school. Like it got me through, like, a breakup, it got me through. You know, even guys who are now my friends like Ernie, you know, who was listening to me in college and, like, the podcast helped him get through college

and then his first job. Like, it's crazy that the effect the podcast has had on people, so I still will keep doing it probably forever, but, like, yeah, I'm getting less concerned about, like, pumping out content constantly. Because also YouTube. According to Oricornin. Yeah, because, like, YouTube and other socials,

it's like the algorithm, I hate feeding it, so it's, like, at this point, I'm just sick of doing it. So I'll obviously produce episodes and keep talking to people, but I'm not going to sweat, you know, putting out three or four episodes a month. So, yeah. My advice to you is, yeah, just take it easy and, you know, focus on the quality, like you said, over quantity.

Like that'll matter more in the long run, other than just having people on all the time. Yeah, I was about to ask the last question if you want to share some piece of advice from your career or even, you know, send some kind of message to the audience. Oh, God. that's a good one actually

I have a really good thing to talk about okay so this is a book called The Creative Act A Way of Being and it's by a guy called Rick Rubin Yeah I know him

He produces some amazing music When I used to listen to rap In my younger years Yeah so Rick Rubin He's now the head of Columbia Records But he's obviously a legend And like he's a huge rap fan So yeah it's

rapping metal were pretty much my two go-to genres when I was younger, but, so Rick wrote this book. It's a really good read. Now Rick's a bit of a hippie. I'm not going to lie, obviously. But he does have some great advice on just generally how to

be a creative in the world. So he has this one quote that I've circled. I can see it, but like, yeah, so I'm going to read this to you because I think it's a great quote for the world of creatives and artists. Then it's just like a general life mantra. I think it's a really good thing to say.

He's talking about artists. So what he says is, living life as an artist as a practice. You're either engaging in the practice or you're not. It makes no sense to say you're not good at it. It's like saying, I'm not good at being a monk. You're either living as a monk or you're not. We tend to think of the artist's work as the output.

The real work of an artist is a way of being in the world, which is pretty good. So basically what he's trying to say is, it doesn't matter how much you produce. but your existence as an artist shouldn't be based on the output, like how much you put out into the world. It's just a way of being. Like you are an artist regardless of a thousand paintings, you know, a year or 10 paintings a year.

Like as long as you're creating and being an artist, you are engaged in that process. You're an artist. So yeah, it's a bit hippie-ish. I get it, but like I think it's a good mantra for people is that you don't want to overcomit your shelf to doing a bunch of stuff that you don't feel passionate about. The quality will always matter versus the quantity. Like, you know, I even say to people when they're making portfolio stuff is that you can

have, you know, 50 pieces that are like kind of okay. If you have like three solid pieces that are incredible, people will hire you over that quicker than the other portfolio, you know, because art director have to look through hundreds of portfolios every day. And if they open a website and within the first three projects can see that you're really good at what you do, you'll be hired instantly. So yeah, it's don't stress about the algorithm,

don't stress about life, just try and be in yourself as much as you can. Yeah, I think that's perfect and appreciate it that you read it. It's actually really interesting. It's a good book if you're an artist, yeah, it's a good backup. And it's also a great point when you highlighted Rubin,

because I listened to a few podcasts with him. And definitely someone worth listening to and following So it was a great idea. Yeah. Yep. So thank you, Gordon. I think we can then finish it for today.

And as I said, I will be more than happy to continue at some point. Apart to you. Next step. I'll be happy to come back on and listen. Thanks for having me. It's been great talking to you. And I think it's good also because I don't usually get to be on the other side of the camera, like talking this, I guess. So it's an interesting set up.

So, yeah, I have the fancy mic. I have the camera and stuff like that. but like it's yeah because I'm just this is how I can stay out for years now so this is that hopefully in the future I'm in such a position as well everything costs money at the moment and money's not really so yeah

cool so thank you Gordon I wish you good luck in your car and I will stay in touch yes thank you but thank you for listening if we enjoy the show please leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast app get in touch to provide

your feedback or share any ideas for future guests Thank you and see you soon.