Produced By - Big Dreams, Bigger Canvas: Small Town Artist Sketches His Way to Hollywood | #SPECIAL: Marco Gifuni

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Part 2: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/produced-by/episodes/Beyond-the-Frame-Where-VFX-Passion-Fuels-an-Eternal-Creative-Fire--41-Marco-Gifuni-e2f0tb7 Beyond the Frame: Where VFX Passion Fuels an Eternal Creative Fire | #41: Marco Gifuni London's own Marco Gifuni isn't just a 3D generalist and character designer, he's a veteran storyteller with 20 years of breathing life into pixels and clay. His artistic journey began with pen and paper, a foundation that still influences his masterful concept art, sculpting and sketching today. But Marco's true playground is the cutting edge of VFX. He's collaborated with industry giants, leaving his mark on projects like The Matrix Resurrections, Meg 2 and Ghost in the Shell. From blockbuster creatures to captivating commercials, Marco's award-winning work spans the spectrum, constantly pushing the boundaries of imagination. Marco’s journey isn't just a career path, it's a vibrant tapestry woven with passion and determination. The first part of our interview unveils his story, from his idyllic Italian roots to the bustling streets of London, where he chased design dreams while facing various obstacles. Prepare for tales of diverse projects, collaborations with industry giants and the grit it took to navigate challenges and attend glamorous premieres alongside Hollywood stars. This isn't just a look back, it's a glimpse into Marco's creative soul, revealing the magic that unfolds when dreams meet unwavering passion. 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Hello and welcome to Produced Buy. Just quickly before we begin, if we enjoy the show, please consider supporting it by joining our Patreon. You can choose from a list of memberships and we'll receive some exciting rewards. Thank you and back to the episode. Hello, Marco. Thank you for Janus today and welcome to this special episode.

Very nice to be here. Thank you for everyone. So Marco, can you please introduce yourself? Sure. Well, my name is Mark Ritchie Fooney. I'm a 3D generalist character designer. Currently freelancing, I'm very fortunate to be able to work in the film industry and commercial and pink font between the two. I would say my forte is concept art and character design and modelling society.

which is something I really, really enjoy doing. And I've been, again, really fortunate to take part in projects that have been released in cinemas and TV, and as well as working with some of the best studios in the market under the FX sphere. And yeah, it's super hard to give you a summation of, you know, what I do, what I am, without sounding, I don't know, somewhat weird. No, it's also good.

We'll dive into more details because it sounds exciting. But first, let's start with your background. So where do you come from? Yeah, absolutely. So can hear from my accent. I'm Italian, whatever fragments of Italian accent I've got remaining in me. I moved to the UK 14 years ago. Actually, it's 14 years today.

Really? Oh my God. 14 years ago, I decided to make the jump. And I moved from, I mean, I was living in Rome at the time, but I was born and raised into this tiny, tiny town slash village called Fodger and in the south of Italy. which again didn't have as many you know things to explore or you know I wasn't surrounded by loads of things to do and stuff and I suppose the thing that I mean my my comfort blanket is always been illustration I've been doing illustration since I was since I can remember really and yeah this is something that kind of slowly took me to the path of pursuing digital arts in 2003.

Before then, again, I was aggressively trying to do illustration wherever I could. Actually, I did graffiti as well from age of 14. Was it legal or illegal? I'm not sure I should answer that. But yeah, no, it's from the age of 14 to say 16, 17. I've been doing graffiti. And again, that's on the same vein. I liked illustration so much that I started, you know, diverting into other kind of branches and stuff.

And the accent was always into monsters, creature, design, characters, which is the thing I do to this day as well. The majority of the things I do kind of include character design and monsters and things. And yeah, this is something I've been doing. all my life and when I started to you know get a sense that there was something like graphic design and illustration I can do in a digital aspect that's what attracted me the most and yeah in 2003 I decided to move to Rome

and I was 19 so yeah I've been doing this for 21 years because I'm going to be 14 a few weeks Oh, it's some experience. Yeah. And I remember, I mean, the very first, you know, step I moved in digital art. It's because a friend of mine told me, oh, there's this program that does 3D text. It's amazing. And then that program was Cinema 4D, which is a program I used to this day.

And I mean, it's so reductive to say it does 3D text, but it's just, but yeah. And when you move it. to Rome was it because there weren't any options or career progressions in a town you were from? Yes, because that, I mean the place I was, I mean it could sound harsh but I was unfortunate to be born and raised it. Not only didn't have as many, you know, external impulses for me to grow as a person, but even as a, you know, professional and stuff. and in general Italy is not a country that tends to reward

creative jobs they're not seen at something that produces objecting stuff so I mean they're a bit of reticent to pay for something that you don't really object materially

deliver why are you giving me it's just what an illustration I'm not in paper that and that's the mindset that they still have, again, less than the past, but that's the general kind of mindset. They have creative jobs.

I'm not as, you know, taken into consideration as, you know, other jobs to be. But you know, it surprises me a bit considering its rich industry of design, automobiles, perfumes and stuff like that. So I wouldn't really expect it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, see, that's the thing, because Italy has been the avant-garde for art for, you know, millennia. But at the moment, this is not, when I say at the moment, in the last, say, 50 years, this has been less and less

because obviously older fashion houses have been bought by other countries. For example, Benetton. I don't know if you know it. They've been bought by France, I think. I need to check that. Okay. not owned by Italian owners and stuff. And in general, the sentiment is that graphic design, digital art,

is not, in terms of the scale of values, it's not as important as other jobs. I remember the only interview that I've ever had in Italy was for, well, I can't say the client, but basically it was for a news agency, like one of the most famous news agencies in Italy. And I remember in the interview, they weren't that impressed by my portfolio or what I was proposing.

They were just keen on knowing if I had a driving license. I said, what do you mean a driving license? And the person I was interviewing me said, well, if something happened at midnight, say you should be able to come here with your own car and do the design stuff and go back home, which is like graphic designer 24-7, which was very weird. And yeah, since, I mean, at the time, I still don't.

I didn't have a driving license. I didn't get the job. So, I mean, it is such a strange thing to take into consideration having a driving license. Yeah. And do you feel like it's been getting better to now appreciate it? more this creative industries or it's the same or getting worse granted i'm not aware of what's going on in italy anymore i mean to a larger extent but as far as i know obviously yeah it's much better than he was 14 years ago and 14 years ago it was to a level that you're definitely not going to pay the

bills if you decide to pursue this career so it's up to you there was i remember when i was in uni there was this underlying sentiment of, okay, even if we find a job when we live at the uni, this is going to be tough. We're not going to be moving there. I don't know if the situation has changed. I can

tell you that possibly the film industry is in the exact same state, probably a bit better, but again, it's not comparable to the English market, the American market. it's just not the avant-garde in terms of digital productions.

There are definitely few studios that are doing really great work, but it's just such a smaller scale. And in terms of wages, they're not comparable. Yeah, it's a bit surprising and sad if you consider it's even rich. history, right? With plenty of big films. Absolutely. I remember at the Union we studied history of Italian cinema and plenty of great movies.

And in Rome I used to live near the place that it's called Chinachita. I don't know if I were hers. It's where Federico Fellini used to shoot these movies like Kabiria and movies like this. Yeah. I think Pong movie was shot there as well. And it was this amazing place. It's just imagine the Universal Studios.

but in Rome, that in the 50s, 60s and possibly part of the 70s was like the excellence in terms of movies. He would pay to shoot and record there and stuff. Obviously, that's changed, and that's because they have stopped funneling money into the arts. In general, the Italian government is not that keen. I remember this thing that this happened more than 15 years ago, so it's something that's stuck with me. I remember the Minister of Culture one day when asked why Italy is not sponsoring, you know, art projects and films and things like this. It was so upsetting, basically replied, try and make a sandwich with the Divine Comedy. Meaning, I mean, the Divine Comedy, as amazing as it is, is not going to give you, you know, food to put on the plate and stuff.

It's just, and that kind of gives you a glimpse of what they were. really think about art and crazy pursuits. It's just, I mean, as amazing as they are, you're not going to pay the bills with them. It's just the turn of all, obviously, the rest of the, well, in UK, obviously this is not the general sentiment. So yeah. Yeah, it's unfortunate. It doesn't kind of progress from its history. But anyway, how did you find your education in Rome then?

Yeah, I mean, when I moved to Rome, it was such a culture shock. Because, again, I was coming from this tiny, tiny town. Again, I keep calling it town slash village. But there's so much to say about that place. It kind of stuns you grow in a sense because there is nothing. He's got nothing to offer. So the only thing I had is just this stubbornness of draw. I was drawing and sketching every day.

And when I moved to Rome, it was such a bit of. a culture of shock because I mean I don't know if you're aware but in Italy each region has got its own dialects so even the way you say things it is different if you go say for example to Latio which is the region where Romeroom it and I was from Bulya which is from the south so even behaviors and movements and gestures and stuff they're completely different so it was like such a culture shock for me and I ended up staying there and I ended up doing this super long course in architecture and 3D design. And the thing that they were trying to preach the most is learn autocad.

You need to learn autocat. Now, for the ones they're not aware, AutoCad is this super obsolete architecture program, which produces CADs, which are really. really precise models. At the time, you didn't even have options. You have to literally write options. We're talking about YouTube just started to, you know, being diffuse. MSN was the way of communication. So we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have Instagram, we didn't have social media. We had MySpace. So, yeah, we did have social media. MySpace. It's even odd for me. I'm not going to lie.

Yeah, exactly. I was telling you. You must have been. actually I think you skipped the whole era of MySpace. MySpace was super cool. Again, I feel so old now. MySpace was really cool because you could... I think it was just dying when I was kind of getting online. Exactly. MySpace was really cool because you could customize it.

And I mean, I still didn't understand how Facebook managed to trump MySpace because in my space was really cool. Again, you can have your own MySpace. You can customize it and everything. And in a matter of months, it just went away. but again but YouTube wasn't that sense of nostalgia yeah that is a bit

you're right but you know I remember that when I started to approach digital programs and again I used to fight the facts that my teachers and professors wanted to spoon feed me CAD programs which I already

found obsolete at the time we're talking about 2003 and I was the only one in my course that was using Cinema 4D. And everyone was like, well, what are you doing with Cinema 4D? And I mean, most of them basically dropped out. And I'm still using Cinema 4D. So, again, at the time I remember I had to buy a book.

It was like the Bible of Cinema Coctuary was this big. And he was an Italian. Anticlopedia. Yeah. And because there were no tutorials. I remember the very first studio that I worked for in the UK. They didn't even know what Cinema 4D was. I remember they were saying, I don't know, there was a guy that came here that was using this program.

We're not really sure, we're not doing motion design. So yeah, it was cool at the uni, if anything, because I was doing my thing. I was always producing characters. I've got characters I used to produce in 2004, 2005. And again, there was a bit of an overshoot from what I was doing graffiti, graffiti text to puppets and this really, you know, weird characters and stuff, which is something I've always done. Even when I was in primary school, I remember my parents used to say, you always do monsters. I don't know, that's why I liked. But actually, I agree with you.

I find monsters really cool as well. Absolutely. Because it's something where you can use your creativity and something that's never been done before and it just looks awesome. Absolutely. I know, I totally agree. I mean, they've got an added value and this is why people like Rick Baker, you know, an Aristotle contest. They're all super, their work is super attractive because they've got an added value. You're not just doing anatomy.

Now you're adding stuff on top, which is. something that not everybody can do or is able to do. And I've always found it super interesting and super hard to do because again, you have to come up with your own interpretation and your own concept. And it's definitely a time. Yes. And I was going to ask you before, when you mentioned that Rome was culture shock, was it also because there were international people and students as well? Or was it just people from different areas of Italy? No, you'd be surprised. Well, at the time, we had one international student in the whole university. So, just one. Oh, really? Yes. Italy is very insular. I don't know at the moment, but at the time, we're talking to 2003, again. It wasn't as, you know, culturally diverse, let's say, as it could be now. Again, I have no data now, so I'm quite sure the situation has changed. But I mean, at the time,

was literally just I was surrounded by Italian people and I remember whenever we saw tourists in Rome we can recognize they were not Italian because they were like wearing t-shirts and shorts in November and for an Italian shirt why do it you're wearing a shirt for an Italian that's not viable but yeah and today it's full of tourists isn't it yeah no Rome has always been for tourists. In fact, there are pubs and stuff that only tourists go to. If you go and do a pub crawl in Rome,

they're going to take you to spots that are specific for Brits, for Germans and stuff like that. In this, in this, I mean, I don't know if the situation has changed, most likely it has, but I wasn't that exposed to different cultures at the time.

I mean, just to give you, a glimpse of how I was at the time. I never tried any other cuisine but the Italian one before I was 20. So I never tried mustard before I was 19. I mean, the Italian culture is very into that. Which again sounds strange.

At least you had one of the best cuisines in the world. That's true. Although you haven't tried any others, it was still such a delicious. That's true. I used to say that then I tried Spanish cuisine and that blew my mind to appoint that. Yeah. It's now number two. I guess I'm not going to like this podcast, mate. But yeah, no, apart from that, again, moving to Rome has been such an eye opener because not only I got to, again, talk to other people and my teachers were super... Well, some of them were up for, you know, disclosing the secrets of the industry and stuff.

But it was nice to meet other people and kind of, you know, get up my shell and stuff. And yeah, that was my first approach to digital art. And did you already know back then that you wanted to focus on film industry or VFX? No. I didn't even know what the FX was. I mean, we're talking about a 19-year-old that is just moving his first steps in 3D. I didn't even touch animation for the first year or two. It's just because I only knew this thing produces 3D, you know, objects.

And I soon found out when I moved to London that my knowledge of 3D programs wasn't that, you know, advanced. Because I moved to London when I was twin. 2524, something like that. And there were 19-year-olds that were doing laps around me. It's just they were so advanced. And obviously, because I mean, the good thing in Britain, I suppose, is the fact that you get introduced to the workforce quite early,

which in Italy is not as common. You usually don't work until you finish the university. Italy is called a piece of paper you need to get a piece of paper this mantra you have to have a diploma you have to have something to show yeah we have something similar

in the Czech Republic yeah it's like you need to get this diploma to help you in the career absolutely yeah it's exactly the same in Italy again I didn't know what I wanted to do exactly

I just I mean I grew up saying I want to be a graphic designer. Then I became a graphic design. I thought, oh, this is boring. So I progressed like that. I mean, at the time, I wasn't really a defined, you know, professional. I was just doing a bit of everything. I was doing a bit of vector art.

I was doing a bit of illustration. I was doing a bit of 3D. Mostly 3D. 3D has always been, I would say, 60, 70% until you took over. but yeah, I didn't even know about the effects. Again, my examples of the effects were very poor at the time. Even my teachers, they used to do the effects in Italian post-production's company. It wasn't mind-blown stuff.

It wasn't like, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess also because after year 2000, it was still in fancy, so it wasn't as developed as these days. When I was, I mean, my first year, uni, the Matrix was released. I've been reloaded and everyone blew the minds of faith. Mind-blowing. Yeah, exactly. I remember people were going to the exams because you can do a presentation and get the exams

and they had their usual letters falling animation at the exam, which is so tacky as of why you're doing that. But it's just to show that they could do it. And again, it was mind-blowing, as you said. But I couldn't rationalize, oh, this is VFX, I can do that. How do I do that? It's just, I mean, the step from I do 3D and that can be applied to that, it was just too wide a gap for me. Yeah.

Yeah. And do you remember some films from your childhood that had the biggest impact on you? I would say the one that probably left to the best. Well, first of all, probably the biggest one of the first one I'm seeing was Ghostbusters. But again, you can't really talk about digital side of things with Ghostbusters. And I probably am going to be checked on this. I think it was ILM. I'm not exactly sure.

But again, the digital side of things was very low. It was more practical. And this is what I love the most. There's like monsters. It's just less model this thing that's bringing it to life. And the very first, I would say, digital products that are really left a mark what's Jurassic Park. I think it was in 1994.

Yeah, somebody sold. Ninety-four. But yeah, it's Jurassic Parkport. It's amazing. No, it's still such amazing film even these days. Oh, yeah, absolutely. really holds a really good edit. You can't believe.

I remember seeing a documentary the way they moved to dinosaurs and they had to move them from a really, really low-rest model. And they couldn't even see the I resolution version as they were animated. And they would take it like days to compute the animations. Just mind-blowing stuff.

And Toy Story, of course, there was probably probably when things got kind of achievable. Because obviously as soon as you rendered stuff, I mean, the render side of things at the time wasn't mind-blowing. I would say paradoxically, Jurassic Park was much more realistic than Toy Story. But rendering stuff in 2003 looks very much like Toy Story. So he had no glitz and glam in terms of, you know, comp or render. So yeah, that was really interesting to see as well, yes.

And I think also it was so successful, Toy Story. I'm not going to love, don't want to lie, but didn't even won Academy Award or something like that? The first one, yeah, possibly, yeah. Because it was like a first groundbreaking. I read some books, I think, from John Lasseter or at Catmull and about Pixar. And, you know, it was just such a big revolutionary project that basically nothing like that was done before. It was so ambitious and so successful. Well, yeah, it was definitely an awful in the industry.

There was no competitors. And I remember when I was a uni, because obviously we used to exchange files. oh look what I found on Napster got all these references from things that are not being used anymore. Napster was for the people that don't know. It was a sharing program

where you could illegally download stuff. And basically that was this. It's another one I read about but I haven't experienced my own. Yeah, I used to use it when I was in school mate. We used to download music from that. MP4, MP3, exactly. But

Yeah, basically there was this short movie produced by Pixar, which I think was the introduction to Toy Story 1. It was called Jerry's Game. It was this old man playing chess with himself, with himself. Yes, I know it. And that was mind-blowing. Wow, so this is 3D. And this is what kind of helped me to understand how,

I mean, think what things were achievable via the program I was using day in and day out. because again, I didn't really have an image in my head how this is applicable to work. I just didn't know. I just thought someone would introduce me to a way of doing things. And again, less partially because easily wasn't that advanced in terms of 3D. I mean, even at the uni, we didn't have people saying,

this is calm, this is how you do things, this is how you render stuff. this style model. I was one of the few in my course to just do 3D with a strictly 3D program. We were doing, since he was partially architecture and partially 3D, the accent was mostly on the architecture part. So we were doing CAD stuff mostly. Yeah. So yeah. Just to explain briefly why I was so excited when you mentioned the chess short.

It's because I remember, I don't know what film was it, but when I was young, it actually was before I went to cinema and you had like sometimes before some films, shorts from Pixar. And I remember there was this one. And years after I found out that the director of that short was director called, I think, Jan Pinkawa. And the interesting thing is that he's actually Czech. And, you know, it's quite a big deal because there isn't anyone as. successful or big name from the Czech Republic. So that's what I found out, I was just like, wow, I would never expect that. So it was really cool.

And unfortunately, I don't know what happened, but then he directed Ratatouille, but there was probably some disagreements and someone else took over. And afterwards, I don't know why, but he didn't direct anything else. But there's kind of sentimental value to me because he was Czech. I just wanted to explain this. I didn't know you were tracked, the directs. Absolutely. It looked amazing.

Even the story was really nice, because you don't realize he's playing against himself until the end of the film. It was really, really nice. Oh, spoiler, Marco. Come on. Well, that's been around for 20 years. It's on you, if you don't know.

Yeah. But yeah, I know it's really, nice, really nice short movie. If you want to boost your online presents, check out our digital marketing agency called Trailblazed. You can also enroll in a Skillshare course called the 10 Tips on How to Succeed in Your Creative Career, which was inspired by the podcast. Lastly, make sure to subscribe to our weekly newsletter called Creative Spotlight to stay up to date with the show and more.

Links are in the show notes. Thanks. Tell us, when did the idea? to move to London come to you. Right. So I was in Rome. I woke up from a nap and I said, I want to go to London to study all work. This is exactly what it happened.

I'm not joke. My girlfriend can come. And, uh, yes. So it actually helps, like, to sleep and you get ideas. Possibly so. When you arrested. I must have seen it somewhere and then I processed the idea. I mean, to be honest, I wasn't aware.

of the fact that probably there was no future for me then and there was a really good judgment call on my part because I know loads of loads of people that are now still struggling to find a job or to pay the bills and that's because obviously there isn't this thriving market in the creative side of things. So yeah, basically I almost on a whim decided to go to London and I had no idea now at this point I traveled once outside the country which was in 2001 I went to Edinburgh for a few months to study. I can speak a word of English. I had no concept or idea of what London was never been here,

nothing. So, yeah, I'd say... And weren't you thinking about other countries or cities or something else? No, just London. I don't know why. Again, I must have been, I don't know. I remember my very first job as a freelancer

was in 2006, something like that. And I worked with this company doesn't exist anymore. And I basically did a 3D character of all things. Of a graffiti piece from a really nice, a really good artist in Spain. It's called Berlin. And yeah, it was basically, yeah, my very first job.

And the studio was based in Shoreditch. Again, never met the guy. I would just smoke on Sky and MySpace as well. I think you found me. and yeah, I just did this job didn't get paid, which is nice at the time we used to do stuff. Did you know that you are not going to get paid

or you didn't know? Yeah, you know, I don't know if you ever heard or someone has ever uttered the phrase to you oh, this is good exposure. At the time we used to do stuff for good exposure. Okay, yeah. Which is my, you know, whenever I hear, we don't have budget,

this is good at this culture, I just test the end of the conversation to this day. Yeah, at the time I used to do stuff for free, obviously when you start, you don't really have a concept of how much you need to get paid, what you're worth is and all of that. So, yeah, that was my very first, actually,

no, I'm lying, that's the second gig over at. The first one was in 2004. But yeah, there was, was my very first, I'd say, approach to all things London. And yeah, I decided to move when I was 24, 24, 25. And I managed to find this freelance job with this company. They're still around in London. It's called Unit 9.

It's part Italian, part British. And I started working with them. They had a branch in Florence. So I went there first. I did a few projects with them. And then I flew to London. Again, I had no idea what I was doing, literally. No idea.

I remember the first day, I just showed my portfolio. I didn't know I was getting the job. And I showed a portfolio to the guy that is now the CEO. And he said, all right, that's your desk. Is Davidey that he's going to set up your computer? I'll see you late. and it just went by the way

we didn't talk about money we didn't talk about day rate I didn't know what day rate was what national insurance and I thought that nothing absolutely enough they just put me to work

and the first job was for Adobe which was a big that sounds big yeah it was for Adobe with a Zardid architecture studio

we created this this thing is long gone It's been shut down But it was what It was called the Adobe Museum Basically It was this

Digital space They only lived on the internet It was a website In fact I think that My website Is the only one on the internet That has got few renders of it

You can't find it But yeah I was basically At the time I was working with my laptop And yeah I was just Doing my thing

I wasn't there, you know, skilled. I was a super junior, but that was my very first job in London. And again, we're talking. When, when moving over, what did you feel like? Were you excited, even though you didn't know anything, or were you scared or both? I was terrified. Now, just to give you a little glimpse of what it was. So I came from a country where,

Even doors open a different way. They open from outside in, whilst doors it open to inside out. Cars, obviously, different driving places and all that. So I remember trying, my very first cab I took, I tried to get into the, not the passenger seat, but from the other side and to go, what are you doing? speak of English so communication was really tough

again everything was different we're talking about a different currency you need to find a place my first place I used to live at was in Williston Green and it was an attic where he used to rain inside from the ceiling so my first night

I had to take a sponge on the ceiling because it basically I think it was rain it was basically dripping on the on the carpet on the first day you experienced you experienced proper traditional London weather on yeah it was incredible again it's the fact that I was sleeping in a I've been sleeping in an attic for a couple of weeks and then I managed to find a place and then I find another one so conditions are initially weren't optimal and I remember moving here and I only had 1200 pounds so if that was gone I had to go back to wherever I was from and obviously I was a freelancer I mean freelancer is probably too big of a word at the time I was an intern slash freelancer I remember this company paid me much later when I was supposed to leave my employer employment so it wasn't a payment it was weekly or monthly so yeah that's

partially my fault because again I wasn't that aware of the work conditions and how things were supposed to be defined at the start but I mean you live in here you learn I suppose and and again that was my very first job and I was just thrown into it and yeah from there I just decided to to pursue freelancing and permanent just bouncing in between the two really and yeah yeah so how long you stayed in the job actually right so that lasted I think something like like eight months and then after that I managed to start working with this company they still around is called Fluent amazing guy amazing director Revue Williams

which started to give me you know gigs and 3d based projects I was doing a asset building which is a thing I did to this day as well amazing guy again is that I would say the very first one they trusted me and that's not to say that obviously that came with problems because with more trust you need to be able to handle your budgets and stuff but after that I managed to obviously I was running short on money because you know freelancing was and as uniform and fixed I'd find some other source of income there was more stable table. So I managed to join this company that was working in digital media, meaning mostly

doing banners and posters for film. So that was my very first, I would say, glimpse of the film industry. And I was doing banners all day. So, you know, when you go on the website and you see tiny banners animated ones and those are the first thing you closed. This is why I was doing it. Those other ones I was going to say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the the mind-blowing stuff is that now I work in the film industry on a more consistent way and I've never been to a premiere or anything since I started to actually do the film stuff. And at the time I was doing banners, I was going to premieres every week. So the very first premiere I went to, I didn't even know what a premiere was. They basically told me, so imagine I moved to London four months. Now it's

eight months before and they basically told me, right, today we go into the premiere of red with Ellen Mirren and Bruce Williams. What do you want to do? Do you want to come with us? All right? Let's go. And I went there and we had a red, imagine I was there with my rucksack after a day of work. And we went on the red carpet and I literally, there's a video of this, I literally walk past Elmiren, which was given interviews. Really? And I didn't even know where I was. I was just alright, Bruce

Swill is here. Let's watch this film. And that was red. Oh my God. Yeah. It was in 2010. But how such company gets these tickets? How is it possible?

Because we used to, our main client was Fox were actually Fox and Warner. So we used to work with Fox and Warner and the distributions of this film are usually Fox, Paramount Warner. We used to work with all these companies. And, yeah, basically, we used to do PR and digital media in bulk, I would say. So here's a poster for the film, here's a banner. We used to do thousands of banners.

which is something that, I mean, reposition is something that kills me to this day. We used to repeat the same task over and over again because obviously I remember one day, Natalie Portman, we were working on Black Swan, and we did hundreds of bonnets for Black Swan, like literally every possible size you can think of. And then one day, Natalie Portman,

wins the Golden Globe. So the client ones, the Golden Globe logo, in every single banner we did so I had to redo I'm not joking probably 50 banners just to amend them and again repetition is my

kryptonite to this day okay okay but yeah it wasn't it was a steady source of income it just wasn't as creative as I wanted my job to be So one day I just I remember I couldn't do it anymore.

So I decided to take a day off and I went to an exhibition of Bustup Klim. And I came out of there. But Marco, before before we move on, let me ask you with those banners, how does such a process look like? What is it like? How much creativity have you got? How long you spent on it? How do you know what to do? Not very creative, I would say.

Again, I appreciate that there was something that had to be done. By the way, they are, I wouldn't say long gone, but they are used less and less as a digital media. Because again, people tend to skip them. In terms of creation, we used to. basically create them in Photoshop, just have the static version, and then you import them in a program called Flash, which I think today is called Animate. But yeah, I was basically forced to learn action scripts too, which is the coding language that allows you to, well, I had time, allows you to move and animate the banners. But I mean the movements are really simple. So imagine you just take crop of a face from the poster,

just move it, zoom in and out. So it was very, very... And again, at the time I was itching to do 3D and do cool stuff. And yeah, there weren't have been any of it. I was trying to introduce. And how long does it take to create, let's say, one banner? Minutes, mate. It's just...

Really? Yeah. It's super easy. in a morning you can possibly do five or six it's just uh we're talking about really small formats as well and do they tell you like follow this uh these elements needs to be there or you yes suggest few ideas and go from there that's the other thing that i suppose i resent the most is the fact that not only it wasn't a creative, creative task per se, but you were also told how to do the stuff.

So it didn't leave you any possible leeway to come up with your creative interpretation, which is something that I do a lot these days, fortunately. But yeah, it's just a, it wasn't as creative and fulfilling a job as I wanted to, but yeah the place was nice and still a great reward to be on a premieres yeah that's a bit we went to literally 10 to premieres I still have the tickets

and that's because obviously if you want to flex name some name some premieres and people I went to the last two Harry Potter's and the thing that's struggling the most is the fact that basically the red carpet was contoured by tens of people that people basically camps and nights

and I remember they had this barriers and I could see the heads of kids popping behind the barriers because they wanted to see if they could have a glimpse of the actors walking in the red cupboard and the red carpet was so big it went from Trafalgar Square

to the Empire Cinema so it goes all the way to Lester Square. I understand if you're not alive. I was going to ask if the premieres were at Leicester or what cinemas it was. They were usually in Leicester Square, the Empire

or Odeon. And the Harry Potter, the last Air Potter one was really, really nice. It was just I remember it was such a grand, you know, pompous event. And I

I just remember the thing I remember the most is just literally kids as far as the eye can see buying the barriers and the barriers were covered with posters and they just had this gap below them so you just see basically heads of kids as you were walking you could see just heads looking at you scream and I was just that I mean I still am nobody I was just going to the Harry Potter premiere I had no idea and it's just because I I did banners and it's incredible that oftentimes we get to work on movies. We don't really see the glamorous side of the premiere. We don't really go to premieres.

If anything, we see them in a cast and crew, you know, showing. And did you even get to take a picture or autograph or you weren't even interested or it wasn't? Again, I didn't have a social media at the time. but it's just a I had a flip phone I remember this colleague of mine did a video of us walking in the carpent

it's just that's the thing that's dropping the moment but I remember going to another one I think it was the first Kingsman and I took my girlfriend with me which was a big fan of Take That when she was like 12 or 13

and Howard from Take That walked past her literally she couldn't believe in So yeah, it was just, it was so bizarre because it's not something you, you tend to do every day. It's just, it was really, really, really weird. It was nice. And especially if you say you moved just a few months ago with, you know, not really clear direction or you didn't know what's going to happen. And a few months after.

Absolutely. premiere of the biggest films in the world. Absolutely. It's just, it was so strange. So strange. I remember once we went to the Expandables premiere. I remember there was a photo kind of occasion to go there and take a picture with Dolph Lundgren. And it was such a strange thing. Again, imagine you just arrived in a place.

You don't know left and right. You know nothing about anything. I remember taking this picture with me shaking the hand of Dolph Lundgren, which I grew up with watching rugby. Yeah, it sounds awesome. Yeah. And it's interesting, interesting, what's the word, paradox that it happened to before. And now, like, or before working on these big films, it doesn't happen.

Absolutely. Again, it's so strange because at the time I didn't really contribute to the final product. It's just something I could only appreciate. And I remember how amazing it was to watch the, because sometimes doing posters, they give you like a frame of the film, and you paste a poster on that. And it was so amazing to see the level of craft that goes into a film and the BFX but I wasn't really

doing that I was just you know just marginally contributing to the release of the film yeah so yeah at some point I decided enough wasn't enough I needed my creative juice

is flowing again and I decided to leave so were your steps where did you go to or what was the plan right so after that I decided to pursue a freelance career and basically started snowballing from there

from the first gig you basically continue and you never stop after I left my permanent employer as a digital media artist is probably too big of a word but yeah you know what I mean I started freelancing and working with all sorts of BFX houses in London, but mostly for commercial.

So jellyfish features, it was one of them, fugitive studios, which doesn't exist anymore, sparr, and all these other studios and fluent and imagination, which again I'm super grateful for. because they are powerhouses in their own right. They do commercial work mostly, sometimes film work. I mean, they've been absolutely amazing to me. So I was mostly... Can you say...

Can you say how tough was it for you to find a job in these houses because we all know that it's quite competitive and hard to get in? So did you have a good portfolio or did you still struggle to find the job back in? Yeah. Initially, it was hard in a sense that obviously all I had was just years of banners because of very mind. I've been doing banners and posters for possibly three years. I was doing 3D on the side, sometimes freelancing.

But I've always been attached to the 3D side of things. obviously I wasn't allowed to do it in my day-to-day job. So I just decided to leave that permanent job because I wanted to do 3D on a more solid basis. But I didn't have much to show in terms of, you know, fully finished projects or, I suppose one thing that counts the most is the fact that you have a project that has been released under the name of some, you know, famous studio and stuff. That's kind of solid proof that you can work in the team or you have been working in the same at a time. I didn't have that. So we are talking about 12 years ago. So I kind of had to, well, first of all, I've always done my personal work on the site.

So I had a lot of characters, a lot of 3D, a lot of assets. They just were an industry standard. So that was possibly... You say industry standard, does it mean the quality of the industry? Yes, the quality. Yes, the quality. Obviously, I mean, it's much different to present one asset as fully finished as it can be. Or a full commercial with shots and com and stuff like that, which is something that obviously catches the eye much more than one, one,

one character and at the moment that's what I had I just had stuff that was like self-produced possibly not as you know refined and yeah this is what what I had in terms of portfolio I had loads of bits and pieces like this so it was a bit hard to to find a job at first but I mean the good thing of freelancing is it is very very democratic so if you can show you're able to be a valuable member of team. They tend to call you back or they tend to give you other gigs with word of them out.

And yeah, that was my... What software were you using? Was it still with Cinema 4D or were you already learning something new? Yeah, it's been a constant... Yeah, it blows my mind. mind that I'm still using the same program. You must be mastered. Is there something you don't know about the software?

Yeah, there's always something you don't know because obviously if new releases tend to add new things. But yeah, I started with version 7.5 and now we are over 27, I think. Version 20, no, it's got a 20 years of the year. But yeah, it's just... it's just it blows my mind it kind of feels familiar

to me is something you grow up with kind of so you know how to move around it's just like Maya it feels familiar and this is something that I still used to this day

but yeah I mean once I started freelancing I started getting closer and closer to the world of TV and movies. I remember my very first freelance gig

was for a TV show called Gold Rush, which you probably have heard about. Basically, minor is that... Something with... Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Very easy to stop. But, yeah, basically,

that was my very first gig. And I just went on from there. And the very first gig I did in movie was with this company that's a system of a fugitive. And it was for a, the son of Ridley Scott was doing, I think it was this first film. It's called Morgan. And we had to create. Can you spell it? What is it?

M-O-R-G-A-N, Morgan. It was a very dystopian kind of. film was really nice and we had to do UIs and graphics screen graphics which is something that I ended up doing a lot the coming years what I do I you I use user interface are basically user interfaces yes oh I mean UI everything qualifies I mean the things that qualify as UI are those you know numbers and things flickering on the screen that you see in the background of film whenever someone looks at a screen, you've got, you know, nice, colorful animations.

And those are usually done in After Effects in Cinema 4D. And I was really lucky to, after I worked on Mog and work on other films, doing UIs and, you know, contributing to them doing UIs. EIs I'll say are the first thing of the... Let me ask you, I'm curious, because if you work as a freelancer, in what scenarios does the company hire you? Is it when they are short on people, short on staff, or if they have their own people, why do they still go for freelancers? I see.

Yeah, that's a good question. Some companies are, I mean, they're called sponge companies, because they tend to, you know, expand depending on the projects and on the tasks. Obviously, sometimes you have multiple projects in, and no matter how many people you have in the company, you still need an extra help from outsiders, possibly freelancers. So I tend to work with companies that do just that, basically. I worked a lot with companies like Territory Studio, and they work a lot with freelancers, great company.

Again, and that's because most of the time you have multiple projects in, and you can't add all permanent stuff. Because once the projects is done, you need to be able to dismiss the contract. of freelancers and go back to your normal workforce. So I would say this is the main reason why companies call freelancers in. And then it gives you a bit of freedom in terms of, you know, how many people you want in your studio, how many projects you want to take in, sometimes you probably have been as many projects in, therefore you need less people.

And hiring freelancers kind of gives you that flexibility, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. And also talking about the Morgan, the film you worked on, was that your first, did you get your first credit in that one? Nope. In that instance, the directors of the company were so charitable to basically give us the work and take the credit for it. So they just... That's nice.

And yeah, and me and another guy did the work for it. But yeah, I'm not salty about it. Yeah, it happens. Were you happy with the end result? Yeah, it was nice. It was, I mean, in my case, it was just one shot. But it was really cool. It was really cool to see stuff on screen.

I'm not sure that was released in cinema, it must have been, though. But yeah, Ridley Scott was executive producer and his son was director. So, yeah, that was my very first movie gig, we can say. Yeah. So what were the next ones for? What other projects did you have after? After that, it was a bunch of commercial work, which is usually what pays the bills for freelancers. You are doing damage control most of the times. You show up, you do the work, you've fixed stuff and you leave.

And I was very fortunate to work with companies like the mill and territory studio. And loads of other companies, really sorry, my name is escaping now, Spav, a lot of other companies like this. but the biggest one I had after Morgan was Ghost in the Shell I was really lucky to be part of the team that worked on Ghost and the Shell at the literary studio

and the Netflix film now is on Netflix but that was released in cinemas and it's with Scarlett Johansson yes that was a really really cool project

to these days went on to call it style work so basically we had to create this thing called solograms which are I don't know if you've seen the film but it's based on this

dystopian sissy and there are this massive I would say almost commercial billboards but they are holographic so I don't know there's a buildboard for

a doctor's office and you have this hologram, a 3D scan, a doctor, doctor's office. And, I don't know, you've got a drum academy and there's this massive drum animating. And we have to do just that. So basically, Rupert Sanders, the director, came up with this idea of having this slightly

blade runner-esque you know assets in the city style theme and yeah we had to create loads of them we had to create loads of them

animate them texture them it was amazing and it was just literally this is your project you do what you want and then you show us and we had to do so many of them

that there was such a a creative, you know, a possibility for the designers to come up with their own interpretation and stuff. And it's amazing because you really see it in the film that you can't miss it. Sometimes they're so big. Yeah. And yeah, there was a, and I got the credit for that before you ask. Oh, I was, yeah.

How did it feel like? Did you go to cinema to see it? I couldn't believe it. Again, to this, I remember a colleague, of mine, somebody like 10 years ago told me, I've been working in film for so many years. After a while, it doesn't, you don't really pay attention to what you do. Everything is the same. And that can't be further from the truth.

I mean, I still get blown away by the releases. I'm very fortunate to take part in. I still have a sense of pride. I'm still super happy to see my work. and my colleagues work. Yeah. It's still amazing. I mean, as I always say, you must have heard me saying this in the past,

it still amazes me that I'll get paid to do monsters all day. And that's pretty much it. Yeah, absolutely, especially if you work on it for such a long time and it's literally like your child, working on it for hours every day. So it's a nice sense of accomplishment if you get to see your name. Absolutely. I mean, again, it's not just the credit. It's the fact that he's cemented in history. Like if you watch the same film in 20 years' time, it can still say, I've done that. If that day, the day I've done that thing, I wasn't in a mood or I wasn't as skilled as I

was supposed to be in that very moment, that would have come out differently. again I I really think that people don't fully appreciate the time it takes and how many steps there are for each and everything we create that they finally see on screen I mean it pains me sometimes when

critics kind of last the film and they just reduce everything to oh their film is trash it's horrible they shouldn't have done it. It's just imagine how many thousands of people spend thousands of hours on that. It's just imagine the time they've devolved on that. I can completely relate. I would never expect that either, but time, resources, even budget, hours and everything spent on it. And then you see it maybe for a few seconds. Sometimes you don't even see it. Oh yeah. And people who don't experience it have no idea. So it's crazy. Yeah. But again, I still think that we are super fortunate to do what we do. Yeah, absolutely. And we still need to feel a sense of pride. Because again, it's just incredible. It's incredible to work on stuff like this.

Yeah. And also let me ask you, what? What are some differences between working on commercials to working on films? I see, yeah. Commercial work is, first of all, the deadlines are really, really strict. And then they're super short. Whilst in a film environment, you can possibly have months to create, say, a character or an asset. Yeah. It is just in commercial, the timeline is incredibly short, incredibly short.

And you have to come up with your own. Would it be like weeks or months? In the best of scenarios, you have a couple of months. But that's like really rich, like you have to be super lucky. I've just finished a trailer. which I can't talk about. But all in all, it took a month and a half, for a minute and 25 seconds.

Which is nothing. Now, commercial work entails that you take care of the whole thing most of the time by yourself. So the difference between VFX and commercial is that in VFX, there are different compartments, like different, For example, the department of Com takes care of just the Com. So it's compartmentalised. If you're a modeler, you rarely see the other side of things I've looked at, unless you can

do that, of course. But commercial is not like that. Commercial is, this is a shot. To do the shot, I'll see you in a week. So they don't care that you're a nice professional. efficient in some fields. They, I mean, the client expects the job to be done. Yeah. Whilst in BFX again, it's super fractioned in modeling department, build department,

comp department, look there, groom, the times I had to do illustration, look there, groom, animation, rig. You do everything. They tend to ask for the final products, not the single stages. Which is, I mean, it would be a bit daunting sometimes. But I suppose it kind of helps you to grow

as a professional. Again, if you want to if you want to grow in terms of skills, freelancing, I've been saying this for years, it's the best thing. you can approach because they throw it so many things that you all in once and you don't know what to expect every time sometimes you show up in a studio and they ask you the things that

you were not supposed to know because again your portfolio probably doesn't screen rigging but that's what they want done and that's what you're doing so then it's up to learn it and just do the job absolutely again it's a I mean I'm fortunate in the sense that the programs I use are programs I've been using for almost too, well, in some cases, more than two decades. So even if that particular thing, I probably have never done myself, I'm sure with a couple of tutorials, I can get a full grasp of it. I'm not absolutely fresh, is what I'm trying to set, I suppose. Yeah, no, so it's quite different from VFX. You can really, you know, do stuff that you haven't done before and progress and learn new skills every day.

And can you say is there one you prefer or enjoy more, whether it's working freelance and doing kind of everything or working in a company and focusing on specific area? I suppose, I mean, in the last two or three years, I've been lucky to work in one of the best best tech companies in the world and I really, really enjoyed it. The level of talent is just off the charts and I really felt part of a family. So that's probably the dehumanizing thing

or freelancing, you just show up, you do to work in any lead. So you don't hang around as much. And that's what I really missed. I think and yeah definitely I really enjoyed being part of a more permanent role and definitely yes I wouldn't mind going back to it yeah and with freelancing does that also happen that you develop a relationship with specific companies and then work for them later as well yes yeah they tend to to have their you know a roster of people

they keep calling in because obviously when you show you can do your job you tend to be cold in more and more often it's just the I mean what I suppose freelancing lacks is the calibre of projects it's very very unlikely you're going to be on a film project if you're a freelancer it's just because the film pipeline is much more complex and it will take months to just get a grasp of it whilst commercial it's just we need to do this to do it

we don't care how so I would say a feature film is more it kind of entails longer stints longer contracts whilst freelancing is more commercial at least

is more appearing there But yeah, I much prefer Phil. It's much more fun. We've got much more time to work on your asset. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense. So let's continue with your journey.

What did you go to from Ghost in the Shell? After Ghost in the Shell, which again was amazing. I loved, amazing team, amazing people. I got cold. I'm sorry, just quick question. Did you know the manga or the original? I'm not sure if it's based on the original. I'm sorry about the original.

I didn't see the part of my girlfriend did. And I remember they didn't really tell me. I don't remember if they told me what the project was. They just said, because they saw my portfolio. And in my portfolio, I had manga-esque characters in 3D, which by sheer. chance this is exactly what they were looking for someone they were very sidel enough to do assets and characters and do as many as possible in

short face of time but basically I didn't yeah I was I was aware of the film the cartoon but I never watched it my girlfriend did and she was blown away when I said oh I'm gonna work on ghost in the shop and and I really like the movie. I really like that the final result is really, really punchy. I don't remember that well, but I think the visualist, because it was such a sci-fi, I think maybe even like, what do you call it, cyberpunk like maybe? Yes, that looked really cool.

Yeah, they're kind of dictated graphics for a few months off. the release because people were so impressed by the way it looked and the companies that were involved in the film it was really nice I really loved it I really enjoyed the film but yeah to answer your question after that if I remember correctly I was hired by another amazing powerhouse of the company MPC And that was great. It was still in commercial. I was in MPC Motion, which is now at the mill. And then after a few months of doing commercial work, I was transferred in the 3D side of things, 3D department. And I worked on a couple of commercials doing characters, which was really great. and really fulfilling because the team was amazing. I mean, there's such amazing talent.

And yeah. Are there some big names or big clients that you can mention? Yeah. Well, in commercial I worked for MTV. Well, fans from KFC to MTV, really. It's just it depends whatever. So like the well-known brands. Yeah, yeah.

Audi, MTV, names like this. It was really great. And then when I was transferred in 3D, I got to do this amazing bunch of commercials for Volkswagen, and we created this goat character with massive horns. And I was really lucky to work on that character as well. So it was great. and they were coming off the success of the, I think it was Waitrose commercial, or John Lewis, sorry, John Lewis commercials.

I don't know if you've ever seen the one of the dog bouncing on the... No. It made me curious. I will check your website and portfolio again after this. It was really great. And again, that wasn't a project I was part of, but the team was exactly the same and they were really, really good. But yeah, I was lucky to join that team. And after that, I was called back at Territory Studio, which is the place I did, ghosted the shell. And they said they had this massive projects they needed people to out about. And I decided to leave MPC and go back to Territory Studio for, I think it was a good six to seven months.

And that was for Pacific Rim, uprising. Oh, wow. And there was... I love that film. Oh, you like it? right? Yes, but not, I know, I know that it was, I'm not sure if the first or the second was a bit, probably box office flop and not critically acclaimed, but because I enjoy

these movies with creatures and robots and the idea that I're fighting against each other, it's like Transformers and Godzilla or something just so cool for me. That's exactly, that's exactly right. Yeah, it's basically a Godzilla-esque. I mean, the first one was created by Dil Tora. Yeah, working for such a big name. That's a genius.

The second one was he wasn't involved. And Stephen the Knight was the director. I enjoyed that enormously. It was amazing. It was like six to seven months. And they gave me the interiors of a

whole robot. That was okay. So this is the thing. Do it. and that was a mixture of animation, UI modeling, texturing, everything you can think of. And the result is pretty good. I'm still using it to disdain my portfolio. I'm really proud for that,

and the team was amazing. I can see my territory studio is really talented. So yeah, after that, what did I do? I just did. Wait, Mark, Mark, did you like the first? film or didn't you like the film? Oh yeah, yeah, it was amazing. It was a, again, this is one, as you said before, it's one of those instances of been, you know, absolutely flabbergasted by, you know, seeing your own work on screen. Just I can't believe that. And that was possibly the very first time that my work wasn't just marginal. It was basically in every shot. you can miss it.

My work and my colleague's work, of course. So yeah, that was... Literally like your child. Yeah, the very first time to claim I did that. It's just out of the box. This is why it is.

And the weird thing is that our client at the time, as a territory studio, was the studio I ended up working with for three years, the next. so they were popping in quite often to check our work because they were the main vendor in Pacific Rim

so that that was my I suppose my first contact with DEN which was great and yeah after that it's It's just, it's been commercial work for a while and interspersed with, you know, feature film. But again, not as much because, again, when you're a freelancer, you tend to do more commercial work instead of movies and stuff. But yeah, I was really lucky to work after that on Menning Black, just doing U.S. and Mission Impossible. again doing new eyes. I'm sure I'm getting some. But yeah, in general, I was really lucky to work on a few film and video game projects, doing motion design and modeling and just being a really generalist.

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