Produced By - Building the Biggest South African Agency: An Ambitious Mission | #64: Matt Wheeler-Barrett

Starting point is 00:00:01 Hello and welcome to Produced Buy. Just quickly before we begin, if we enjoy the show, please consider supporting it by joining our Patreon. You can choose from a list of memberships and we'll receive some exciting rewards. Thank you and back to the episode. Hello Matt, thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So Matt, can you please introduce yourself?

Starting point is 00:00:28 Sure, I am obviously Matthew I, Matthew I-Ell-Liberg. I live in South Africa in Cape Town. I'm in the startup and agency space currently right now, doing B2B personal branding and communications. And yeah, that's about it where we are right now, currently building the agency with my other business partner, Matt. And yeah, happy to be here as well just to chat with you. But you are originally from the UK, right? Yeah, so I was born in the UK in Birmingham and my mom got remarried when I was four years old, so I then moved. to South Africa.

Starting point is 00:01:03 But I haven't been visiting the UK almost every year or so, so always having a close connection still to the UK. So can we discuss what is it like living in South Africa a bit? I've never been so far, and I'm really curious. So can you tell us more, what was it like growing up there?

Starting point is 00:01:22 I'd say, I really had a really good childhood, really exciting on the side of things. I think being in South Africa and with the climate, climate, sorry. There's lots of good weather, outdoor activities and things like that to do. So when I was younger, I was always out on my bike, doing all sorts of things with my mates.

Starting point is 00:01:38 I feel compared to the UK, because I did live there also in 2020, with that weather and whatnot, it's very hard to live a similar life. But at the same time, as well, on a business perspective, obviously with us being a bit further behind the European countries just in terms of our political climate and all of that, I do feel like there are a few challenges, especially for entrepreneurs and people in the workspace over here. However, it's also room for additional opportunities in my eyes. I feel like if you do stay here and push through that initial barrier, there are lots of things that can open up for you here. I mean, that's the one main reason as to why we started our agency here,

Starting point is 00:02:21 is that with the exchange rate, we can offer our international clients a lot more value for a lot less in terms of finances, etc. Because, yeah, obviously, I believe strongly in South Africa in terms of the rich level of talent here. And also, yeah, it just essentially works for everyone. It's a win-win. So it's been quite exciting basing our agency in South Africa. And if you compare Cape Town to the rest of the country, what is it like?

Starting point is 00:02:51 Because, for example, from my perspective, I get a perception of South Africa based on what I heard that it's kind of going down. So is Cape Town similar or is it different? I think unfortunately with with the news and especially I know the UK news they like to shed a lot of negativity on South Africa and us as humans as always tend to focus on the negative where actually there's also a lot of positive I'd say in terms of South Africa versus Cape Town. Cape Town is by far the most popular tourist destination, you know, with the penguins, Table Mountain, all of that. So in terms of the Western Cape versus, the rest of South Africa, you could say it's a lot more developed.

Starting point is 00:03:37 I know also 65% of startups are founded in Cape Town 2. So you could almost say it's a bit more of the startup capital of South Africa versus Joburg that you could say is more established in the corporate world with larger corporations basing their officers out there. But all in all, I would say in terms of Kemparkis, you know, Cape Town versus the rest of South Africa. I just say there's a lot more to do in terms of, you know, the wineries and all those sort of things. I think the climate versus the rest of South Africa as well allows us to have all these amazing things here,

Starting point is 00:04:10 which I know multiple of my friends overseas have come over to enjoy to. Yeah, so I guess a great place for tourists to visit. Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you're earning any form of foreign currency and you come to South Africa, it's very affordable. just like when I mentioned with our clients too, with them paying us to do what we do. You can have a lot of fun with your money in South Africa if you're earning dollars or pounds.

Starting point is 00:04:36 And how international is the city? Do you meet a lot of people from other countries? Yeah, so in Cape Town, I meet a lot of people from Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc. I feel like just because it is once again one of the biggest tourist destinations. And also, I appreciate also with COVID and just opening up that whole opportunity for more people to work remotely.

Starting point is 00:05:00 Cape Town in the summertime is a big destination for Europeans. Firstly, as I mentioned, because of the currency situation. So a lot more affordable for digital nomads to come and work out here. I mean, we're currently toying with the idea of potentially opening up a form of Airbnb that is also taking. tailored to digital nomads coming from overseas. So essentially providing them with a work space, et cetera, and allowing them just to do what they do best.

Starting point is 00:05:31 So, yeah, I just see huge value here in South Africa. And it's, as you said, with the tourists coming here, it's great. You get to meet so many new people. You get to, you know, get into international business without even leaving the country. So, yeah, there's lots of people that come to South Africa. And they always like going on the safaris and all of that, too. I feel we have a lot to offer that most countries aren't able to offer. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:05:56 So I would then plan in to stay there or move to some different place? No, I would still want to base myself here, but the dream would be just to be able to earn enough and have the freedom to essentially travel the world, meet into our clients all over the world too. I mean, we have. We got clients in Dubai, London already. So, yeah, we hope to just essentially keep growing that international clientele base. And yeah, we'll just take it from there.

Starting point is 00:06:22 But right now, I'm pretty happy mounted biking and being next to the winlands in South Africa. Yeah, it sounds like a great city, actually. You sold it to me. I want to visit it as well. Look, I think it's unfortunate in some ways where, I mean, the crime is not the best. But at the same time, if you have a head on your shoulders

Starting point is 00:06:39 and you don't do anything silly and go walk down the street at night by yourself, I mean, that could potentially happen in any country around the world, to be honest. I just guess there's more chance of it happening here. I still do feel fairly safe here. Yeah, so it's not really a huge issue for me. But then again, I've grown up with it,

Starting point is 00:06:58 so I'm maybe just a bit more desensitized to it. And language? Is English spoken there, or any other languages? So it's English, and then also Afrikaans, and then also you get Koza, Zulu, and all of those languages too. I unfortunately only do speak English. I did do Afrikaans in school, but it's my favorite topic of conversation.

Starting point is 00:07:20 Because I read the book from Travis Noah, and I know that he grew up there and he spoke about it. And he said there are different cultures, different backgrounds and languages. So it's something really interesting. And a book is amazing. I can recommend it. Yeah, I've read it as well. It's crazy what he is, what he's done and built for himself, especially from coming from South Africa. And obviously he was hosting the daily show or whatever it was called.

Starting point is 00:07:48 Yeah, it's pretty cool. And also before we, as we discussed Cape Town, you mentioned Johannesburg. But what about Pretoria? It's also one of the capital or big cities, isn't it? Yeah, so I actually, when I first moved to South Africa, that's where we lived. So Pretoria is about, I don't know exactly, but about an hour out of Johannesburg, a bit more suburbia per se as well, though. I personally didn't enjoy living there at all, because the crime was really bad there.

Starting point is 00:08:16 But other than that, yeah, don't have many things. I think I'd say about Pretoria, but I did enjoy going to school there, and I still have a few good friends that I made in school there. So I guess there's a few special memories there, but compared to, yeah, Pretoria and Joburg, I prefer the garden routes and Cape Town a lot more. There's a lot more to do outdoors, and, you know, the outdoors is very important for me and my mental space. Yeah. There are a few films that I watched that took place in South Africa, I think it was in Johannesburg, because there is this well-known direct. I think his name is Neil Blumkemp and he made a few films I think was in Johannesburg and it gives me of course it's a film so it's dramatized but for example district nine

Starting point is 00:09:02 is it actually like a depiction of Johannesburg what is it like in the reality or is it of course not aliens but is it similar to what is it in a film uh to be honest I can't really say I haven't been to Jovo for quite some time now. So I mean, when I say that, I haven't probably been there for a good 10 years. So I'm not really able to give an accurate image of it. But I would say it is a bit far-fetched, to be honest, that movie is specifically like that, to be fair. I know what, another movie that was shot in South Africa as well. It's, I think, Safehouse with Denzel, Washington and Ryan Reynolds as well. I want to check that up. That's in Johannesburg and Cape Town, too. But I mean, yeah, there, They got a few things right, but I'd say with all movies, you always have to take it.

Starting point is 00:09:51 Yeah. So then growing up in there, what did you study, actually? So I did my undergrad and honors in marketing. I won't speak too much about my education because I'm not really a fan of the educational system. I feel like I got most of my learnings from initiative, my network mentors, and I guess just trying to get as many internships and exposure as possible. So I'm a big advocate of doing rather than learning. Yes, obviously you do learn certain things along the way and you read up on things,

Starting point is 00:10:24 but learning how to list a few advantages or disadvantages of something and just regurgitating facts. Doesn't really teach you how to do business, in my opinion. Yeah, so focus on practical rather than theoretical. Yeah, I think even as a student, I mean, I barely went to any of my lectures. I was always just doing my own thing. But the one thing that it allowed me to do was really establish a firm network in Cape Town. And I mean, even just with us starting unify our agency, we were able to almost work on it full time straight away because I had that strong network. And also my business partner, Matt, he had a strong network.

Starting point is 00:11:05 And we were almost able to turn our idea into a business overnight. So I do feel like having a really strong network is so important. And they don't teach you things like that in universe. diversity as much as they should probably, even the practical things like how to submit your company tax and things like that. They don't really do that unless I guess you are studying chart and accountancy or something that is more defined with the financial side of things. But yeah, I've always just been a bit more practical. And I'd say especially in the last year, I really pushed myself to get out of my comfort zone because I feel like comfort is probably

Starting point is 00:11:42 your biggest enemy right for actually achieving that needed progress. to help you become successful in the future. Yeah. So then what made you to realize this or to give you this kind of mindset? You know, was it maybe, I don't know, your parents are also entrepreneurs or friends or what are the influences? I think I was always interested in business. It's just something that just sparked something inside of me. And I'd say actually it was one of my first high school teachers where I was a bit of a rebel in school.

Starting point is 00:12:15 I would on purpose not study and just like I didn't really care to be honest. And one of my business teachers one day, the parents evening just got through to me. And then suddenly from that, I think it ignited my passion for business. And then I made it my goal to essentially become top of the class for business, which I luckily was able to achieve. So I think that through that phase,

Starting point is 00:12:38 I became a bit obsessed. And then also I think it was more just for the freedom. Yes, it's nice to earn. money and all of that, but I'd say it's actually more creating success in my eyes for being able to do what you want with your own days. I mean, now with our agency has come to a point where it's so busy. There's not much time to do anything, but I do know as the team grows, I'll be able to pull away and do certain things. And at least now I don't have to answer to anyone. At the end of the day, if we don't do the work, I can only hold myself accountable. So I think just through,

Starting point is 00:13:11 just through, I think, years of exposure. I mean, I tried a few startups in the past as well, got exposed to quite an early age. They didn't do as well as expected in some regards, but at the same time, too, I mean, with my first startup, I met Matt, my current business partner, and we just continued nurturing that relationship together. We did a few freelance projects together. And, yeah, through that also, I feel like that is also a lesson in itself, once again, about who you surround yourself with.

Starting point is 00:13:43 And if you suddenly have all these right people together and you're able to convince them to take the jump with you on something, things can, you know, come together really quickly, which was really exciting to me. So like I've always just been interested in podcasts, reading business books. And, yeah, I just love learning from other people. I think also as soon as you learn that it's not about ego and impressing people, it's more about being like a continuous student, a sponge and just learning as much as you can from everyone else. I've learned to say a lot less recently and also just to become a better

Starting point is 00:14:15 active listener and just to start applying the learnings I've learned from other people. And also in a way, sharing it to people that maybe hadn't had that opportunity to get exposed to that information. So just essentially, you know, learning and then practicing as much as I can to what we've learned within our specific areas of interest. I was about to ask you if there are any valuable lessons that you learned from your early entrepreneurial pursuits, but now you just shared some amazing tips. But is there maybe something else that you would point out? I'm going to sound like every second person on LinkedIn right now, but like failure is

Starting point is 00:14:53 really important. It's always a good reminder. I feel like it's more important as to how you get back up from it, I'd say, because I think in today's society as well with Instagram, all the social media, there's so many eyes on you that people are so worried just to step out of line and try something themselves because they just fear the judgment from other people. But I'd say the biggest lessons I've learned since doing also the agency with Matt and our whole LinkedIn journey is, yeah, even though you technically fell at something, you still bring along some small wins with you. So for example, as I mentioned with

Starting point is 00:15:31 one of my past startups that didn't succeed, I found Matt and now is my business partner. Now we're working on something that has legs and is really, you know, bearing the fruits. But at the same time, too, I feel like you just have to try your best to learn how to, what's the word, but just learn how to essentially carve out the right mindset that you should worry less and less what other people think. I'm maybe a bit hardcore with my views on it. But at the end of the day, we all do die. So no one's going to remember you anyway.

Starting point is 00:16:07 as well do something in your life, that you're happy and gives you energy every day and inspire other people. I don't care. If five people are hating on me, but I'm inspiring 15 people, then I couldn't care less. At the end of the day, they're not going to pay my bills either.

Starting point is 00:16:19 So if I can inspire and create the lifestyle that I want and have a happy family one day and do things for my friends, I'm not going to let the fear of judgment from people I barely know affect me. Yeah. It reminds me of spotlight effect that we often think that everyone is looking at us, cares about us, but in the reality, people have their own worries stuff to care about. Exactly. And I mean, some people on LinkedIn as well, they're worried about what they post because they think, they worry what people are going to think. I can't even remember what I posted

Starting point is 00:16:49 last week. People worry way too much. And like what I've been from just shaping this new mindset is just, yeah, awesome things have happened, awesome conversations, learnings, etc., have come away. And all it's doing now is fueling that fire more and more. more allowing us to push a whole lot harder. So at the end of the day, I feel like if you are able to wrap your head around that, you can do huge things for yourself. Yeah, I agree. And with these, your experiences, have you actually ever worked in kind of a regular 9-to-5 job?

Starting point is 00:17:24 Yeah, so I worked when I went back to the UK. I moved back there in 2020, and I was fortunate to be one of the first people to join agency. It was a startup agency in Birmingham called Pull the Pin. When I say startup, yes, they technically were a startup, but the two founders had amazing experience, really two highly intelligent guys. And I learned so, so, so much from them. And I worked with them for about two and a half, half years. Yeah, I felt like once again, at that current time, I was suffering from really bad anxiety. I wasn't myself. I had the imposter syndrome every day with every email, I send worried about what my boss would think, what he would say, am I going to, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:07 get in trouble. And it clouded my judgment and my creativity so much that I just almost drove myself into the ground. And I feel like only in the last year have I through therapy and taking priority of my mental health that I allow myself to get back to what I feel is my best and on the road to becoming the better version of me. So yeah, that was probably really the only main nine to five job that I ever worked. a few years back and then also my first job ever I did work for one of my friends

Starting point is 00:18:37 startups too. So you could say I've always been in the early phase of startups which I felt has been really beneficial to me. I mean my first job and I'm meeting him this week. I bumped him to him on the weekend but I really want to just work for my first post because he was one year older than me at the time and he'd already sold a sushi business and then he was now already into an online property business and I was like I don't really yes, you have to earn a living and whatnot, but the main reason why I wanted to work with them was I wanted to, like, be around him. Like, what was he doing that I wasn't doing as a young individual? But then at the same time, I then were starting to think of my own startup idea.

Starting point is 00:19:17 Looking back now, probably I feel like I jumped over a bit too early, but at the end of the day, I am where I am today too. I feel like also people can't worry too much about, oh no, I'm going to get pushed back in my life by like six months or a year. if you look at things in the greatest, you know, in the great scheme of things, like one year's nothing in a whole lifetime, you know, you can also do things to prolong your lifetime by being healthier, you know, drinking less alcohol, things like that, which I'm trying to become better at currently right now too. So, yeah, I've worked the nine to five, but I'd say it was a lot more flexible and, you know,

Starting point is 00:19:53 more of the startup environment, which I thoroughly enjoy. I feel like most founders who I speak to, they almost miss those. those earlier days because that's when it was like, you know, exciting, fun, like, you didn't know what it was going to happen sort of thing. I mean, we're thinking about now getting our first dedicated offices and just things like that are like so exciting where you can just, you know, build in public and just slowly, maturely put those building blocks together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds like awesome experience. I was expecting maybe if you worked in a pub or something unrelated, you know, just to do that as well.

Starting point is 00:20:28 Oh, yeah. I worked at the, like everyone. I worked at the oldest pub in Cape Town called Fories, which has got quite a UK feel to it, so like the old pub vibe in the UK. I worked there for a few months. Yeah, I did a lot of student jobs, like a waitress, being a waiter, sorry, doing small jobs like that as a student.

Starting point is 00:20:50 I feel like those sort of things also taught me valuable lessons, and the most it taught me was probably also emotional intelligence and managing people's expectations. I learned a lot on that from my, job in the UK at the agency there. And what was quite nice was once I saw my anxiety out and I got to actually finally take a step back and think clearly again, I actually realized I learned so, so, so much from that experience. Just at present, I wasn't perhaps able to share it because my mind was just so clouded with fear and judgment. Yeah. And you may have mentioned it, but why did you actually

Starting point is 00:21:24 move to the UK? So it was during the COVID. I decided that startup. I had, I shut it down, and then I got a job for one of my mates' dads, and then because of COVID, too, and that big lockdown in South Africa, they closed everything down for five weeks. I was then unemployed and I was just staying at my parents. And then I feel like I just essentially needed a bit of a change because I'm from the UK, I've got the passport. I could literally just hop on a plane. And I think at the time, I can't remember, but I think I got an expat flight back to the UK. and then was really lucky about being in the right place at the right time and bumped into Sam who was my ex-boss in the coffee shop through my uncle who had played golf with them a few

Starting point is 00:22:08 times and yeah it just fell into place when I was there but then I think more the more and more I thought about it I was just the lifestyle wasn't for me with the outdoors and the cold weather that yeah it was not me and then you know it comes back to the whole thing of what everyone determines to be success in their eyes. For me, it was just being able to go outdoors every day, go mountain biking, have a coffee, you know, appreciating the smaller things in life. So I think that whole experience taught me a lot. And when I look back on it now, probably built up my character a lot to who I am today,

Starting point is 00:22:45 which I'm happy about. I don't regret any of it, really. So I think I've been at my lowest low and it can only get better from here. And as you mentioned before, the imposter syndrome, I think that's something that probably a lot of people struggle with, but it's maybe not as much talked about. So is there something that you would recommend to people to prevent it and that maybe once they experience it, how to deal with it? I feel it is quite a tough one because I feel like everyone has a different attitude towards how people think about. them and things like that. And I think I just got to a point where I just could not care less what people think about me. So it's very easy for me just to not, I just don't think about it anymore.

Starting point is 00:23:32 I think maybe at the start the best thing to do probably is to speak to your close friends, your family, and then maybe just take it step by step. You know, it's like people say, perhaps I'm afraid of going to a networking event. That's totally fine. Like sometimes, you know, big groups are super overwhelming for people, but rather start off small. Just try and invite one person for a coffee and go for a coffee and, you know, start off small and slowly but surely build that momentum, build the pace of whatever you're doing. But I feel like with anything in life, yeah, you got to start from zero. Like I know also on LinkedIn, there's so many people maybe that are scared to start because I think in their heads, they think all these creators

Starting point is 00:24:12 that are doing well just did well with their first post, which is obviously not the case at all, right? So you're almost got to just strive for those 1% improvements every day. I would just say speaking to your close friends and family and just trying to practice being a bit more open. Once again, I mean, I was at my lowest. I went to therapy and that's also now allowed me to speak openly about it. I feel like it's also allowed me to connect on a whole other level with our clients in terms of transparency on an emotional level. And just to show, you know, we're all human, like we're all stuff up and make mistakes

Starting point is 00:24:45 here and there and it's okay. Like we're not perfect AI robots, are we? So I think people need to be a bit kind of to their. themselves too, but just I guess just start off with the people you know best and slowly but surely just start creeping out of those circles. If you want to boost your online presents, check out our digital marketing agency called Trailblazed. You can also enroll in a Skillshare course called the 10 Tips on How to Succeed in Your Creative Career, which was inspired by the podcast. Lastly, make sure to subscribe to our weekly newsletter called Creative Spotlight to stay up to date

Starting point is 00:25:23 with the show and more. Links are in the show notes. Thanks. And is there something that you still practice to keep you sane or to prevent this, such as you mentioned therapy? So is there something similar that you keep doing? So I've recently just finished my therapy. I feel like I'm in a good place now,

Starting point is 00:25:43 but things that help me as I journal a lot in the mornings or in the evenings. I've learned to just try and detach the emotion from the situation and writing that down helps me a lot. And then I guess also I may get a challenge for myself that every week I need to meet one to two new people a week for coffee. So just continuously putting myself out in a position where I have to, you know, once again explain what I do, who I am. Most importantly, though, learn from other people's experiences.

Starting point is 00:26:14 But I feel like that just allows me to practice my message and who I am. And obviously, we're in personal branding too. So it's really important for me to continue practice. my communication skills too. And then probably every day, I probably send out about 15 to 20 WhatsApp messages to people. I did a post about it. The reason why I do it is, yes, LinkedIn's great for staying top of mind, but you can also develop deeper relationships.

Starting point is 00:26:39 I mean, we're currently doing a trial period with a client now, and I know he really likes cars. So every time I see a cool car, I just shoot him a photo of it on WhatsApp. And we chat about cars. even though it's not work related, I'm staying top of mind, I'm practicing my communication skills, I'm getting to know that person better through small conversations. So yeah, usually when I'm walking to the shops to go get my groceries, it's only just down the road for me. I'll send out like five voice notes to five people sort of thing.

Starting point is 00:27:06 They used to some... Top of mind the whole time. Because if you've had a conversation with someone in the morning and then they happen to go to an event and then they actually, let's say, are looking for a service similar to what you offer, usually that person will be like, oh, I actually just spoke to Matt, like he does this. You should contact him. So it's all about building that continuous like momentum and I'm super passionate about it. I love, I think my, I found my biggest passion is building relationships.

Starting point is 00:27:30 And one of my favorite quotes is, and I don't quote me quote on quotes, but it's from Simon Sinek and he says what networking actually is, it's bringing two other people together to do amazing things for them, as opposed to you just wanting to get stuff from it. If you just link to other people up and they do great things, who knows, they go and start a business one day and then they need to use your services one day. So it's all about just helping other people reach success. And I feel that is the best way to build really strong relationships. Yes, also everyone always shouts about giving value for free.

Starting point is 00:28:05 Yes, you can do it to a certain extent. But at the same time, it will have to remember if you are a business, you don't want to give everything away. And then, you know, people just walk away. But there is, I guess, that fine balance between giving out. as much value as possible and helping other people just achieve their own goals. You shared some amazing advice. It even makes me think when you said you go for a coffee with someone regularly,

Starting point is 00:28:30 text to so many people, then I'm not surprised they must have a proper and great network. I think also you have to go into it as well that you just also don't know who other people know. So let's say someone contacts you and they're like, I want to go for a coffee with you. even though you think they can't help you or they can't become one of your customers, I still encourage people to go to it because, you know, their brother may have a massive business or something that can utilize your services. You just don't know also who those people know. And, you know, the more you build your network and the more you, I guess,

Starting point is 00:29:06 give off a good energy to people and you encourage them to also, you know, chase their dreams, they're only going to speak highly of you and recommend people to you when they are looking for a similar service or product, anything within the business space. So, yeah, I always go into every single coffee meetup in a, with an open mindset.

Starting point is 00:29:23 I'm not really there to be like, I'm going to go for this, quite for this person because I want him to become or I want her to become my clients or our client per se. It's just, yeah, you just never know what's going to come off the back of a conversation. Yeah,

Starting point is 00:29:37 I like the mindset. As you before mentioned Simon Sinek, who are some inspirations or people, that you follow, you know, for learning, for motivation, or just like, maybe like their content. So, yeah, I do, I do like Simon Cymick a lot. I don't, to be honest, have too many, I listen to the usual podcasts that people listen to, like Stephen Bartlett with Diary of a CEO and podcasts like that. But I usually just have them on in the background and listen to them while I'm working sometimes.

Starting point is 00:30:10 But at the end of the day, I'd say it's more my main. tools in Cape Town. I've got a few one of our ex-investors for my first startup and just a few other people, a guy that used to lecture me and that now has a very successful business too. It's just people that I know on the ground that I have, let's say, more of a personal ability to connect with them. So actually going physically with them for coffees and things like that. Like Matt and I actually are going to try to take two people we know that are really successful in the online space for dinner because we just let's you just want to ask them some questions. So I feel like that's also another good thing that happened off the back of a coffee was when I started my first startup,

Starting point is 00:30:54 I always had a mindset with my mate who was also part of the company. And we were always like, let's always just try to meet someone new every week, even if they can teach us something about like online card payments or they can teach us about escrow or anything in the online space or e-commerce, etc. It ended up that we got details of someone that owned a online business. And within 15 minutes, he asked us if we wanted money. And then next week, we were in their offices. And then to fast forward, they became investors in the startup. So as I see once again, it's like rather, you know, make other people feel special, take them for coffees and just learn from them. And at the end of the day, if they like you, they'll let you know as well. So

Starting point is 00:31:35 it's just all about meeting as many people as you can, I feel. Because if you have a really strong network, and even though you're working the 9 to 5, but you have that strong, strong network, you've built up good relationships now, suddenly when you get a business idea, half those people can either become your clients, they can become your biggest advocates for your product or service too.

Starting point is 00:31:56 So I find it's just a great practice to always practice, essentially, like just making it part of your daily schedule, just like LinkedIn too, I guess. It's not seeing it as a chore, but seeing it as more of a, like, your assistant, right? It's like your extension to your networking in real time as opposed to, I have to get another post-out sort of thing. You've got to like make it work alongside you as opposed to, oh, this is just something now I need to tick off my to-do list every day. And try to enjoy it so that, you know, you are kind of excited or don't see it as a chore, as you said. Exactly, exactly.

Starting point is 00:32:30 Yeah. I find also, yeah, I send myself lots of voice notes with all. the ideas I have and then I turn them into play. And speaking of this, are there any maybe helpful resources such as books that influence you or that you would recommend? So I must admit. I haven't been too disciplined with my reading as of late.

Starting point is 00:32:55 But I mean, I read loads of business books and, you know, productivity hacks and things like that. I mean, like one that everyone knows like atomic habits. I just try to get hold of books very similar to those. And sometimes also I don't put pressure on myself to read the whole book. If I'm not enjoying it, I'll just skim the chapters, get the important nuggets from it, document them and then move on. Yeah, I mean, I haven't even tried audiobooks before. I just think I'm just working all the time that I don't really have too much time to look into it.

Starting point is 00:33:27 But I do watch a lot of YouTube videos to podcasts for my learnings. And I'd say once again, my main inspiration is learning from actual people. I'm really like aggressive with meeting up with people and learning from them. So I'd say that still is my main inspiration is just learning how to appreciate other people's time and them taking the time to meet with you. And, you know, also giving off the energy and appreciation that makes them feel good to also want to share more with you. Yeah. So for me, that's the most important one to me.

Starting point is 00:34:01 but yeah i'm struggling to keep up with the reading with all the all the place that's i can imagine yeah so then can we transition to to your work to your business can you tell us more about what you do introduce your business sure so unify is a we're a year old startup now um we're currently sitting on about 15 to 17 retainer clients so yeah what we've essentially done is It's not reinventing the wheel or anything like that. All we essentially are doing is B2B personal branding for company owners on LinkedIn. The reason why we started this in South Africa is because there's not many people doing it here, versus, for example, like the UK.

Starting point is 00:34:47 I do feel like there is a very low level to entry with the sort of thing where suddenly you can, you know, optimize your profile and then tell a company owner, you're a ghostwriter. But I strongly believe in the power of a team. I know lots of people also do the whole solar entrepreneurship route, which I completely appreciate. For me, I just feel like better ideas come from a collective as opposed to one person working on the few clients just with their own thoughts. But I do appreciate and respect it to you, not to say it's not what I would want. I just feel like, you know, I prefer working with other people. I also allowing other people to grow within themselves.

Starting point is 00:35:27 So essentially, we are just that B2B agency that specializes in communications in the business space. Right now, we're very niche. We're purely just focusing on LinkedIn optimization and ghostwriting and coaching. So I've been fortunate. So it's not other social media channels? No, not at all. I strongly believe in the power of one. I actually took inspiration from a podcast called Founder, it's in Australia.

Starting point is 00:35:55 and he did an interview with a founder called D Dang, who started an agency called Right Hook. Or they started, and don't hold me to this, but I'm pretty sure off the top of my head, they started with Facebook paid ads, and that's all they did at the start. So they fully focused and became really niche on that, built trust with their clients,

Starting point is 00:36:17 and then essentially built out from there. I think also as a founder and someone that's building in public, It's very easy to be known for one thing versus someone that's offering five multiple different services. It's very hard to position itself. So we are exploring different services, coaching, community building, email marketing, but all of those are very closely tied to personal branding. We're going into video content. We want to hire a videographer soon that we'll just go to our client's offices and do, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:46 client testimonials, turning heads and things like that. Anything that allows us to coach and uplift our clients to be. become better thought leaders within their space. And what's really nice is with Matt, his ex-work was he was an ex-creative director at one of the biggest online companies in South Africa. He directed and filmed all the TV commercials for them and also acted in them. So he's got a lot of experience on the copywriting, directing, script writing, and all of that. And you could say on my side, I learn more about, let's say, the agency operations and things like

Starting point is 00:37:23 that. Through working at Pull the PIN, I learned some of the things that I fell short on in terms of my weaknesses, and I did quite a few online courses through the last year and spoken to a group of people to help me uplift those. So all in all, yeah, I think one of the most important things I've learned as well with agency and even business with co-founders is you always need to make sure your co-founder complements your weaknesses with their strengths. So, you know, I don't really have any experience being on TV. I am so camera shy, but Matt just completely

Starting point is 00:37:56 owns it, you know? So then again, I like being like timelines, timelines, like chasing things and like trying to like update our clients as much as I can. And you know, Matt prefers just doing best what he does, being creative, getting that amazing copy out for

Starting point is 00:38:11 our clients. So we balance each other off really nicely and we've been fortunate enough as well to build a great small team that also supports our efforts around that. So So in terms of our growth and where we want to take Unify, as mentioned before, our biggest advantage for our international clients is the exchange rate. We are able to compete very competitively with pricing.

Starting point is 00:38:34 I mean, I know what some people charge in London for personal branding on LinkedIn is crazy. Big ups to them, obviously also for selling it and doing that. But what I see is massive opportunity for us to come and then offer the same level of quality or even higher. Like we're working our best to just try, complement all areas of our business. But the most important thing is we can offer very competitive rates and still offer that same level of service.

Starting point is 00:39:02 So, yeah, I think our clients in Dubai and London have been enjoying that. Yes, we obviously still charge a fair amount of money because, yeah, we believe we're specialists on what we do. But at the same time, we always try to tailor our packages to work for everyone. And once again, too, I mean, we're very flexible with our packages too because I believe every single personal branding strategy requires a different approach and a different strategy and technique. And we've got a long-term mindset for this.

Starting point is 00:39:32 When clients come on board, we don't want them just to be there for three months and then, you know, we wish them goodbye. We want to build a long-term relationship with them on individual and a business level. And we're not all about price right now. Yes, we're experimenting and charging different prices, upping certain fees for socials. certain things we do. But our goal right now is not just to say, oh, I scaled my agency to 50 clients in a year. Look at me. Like, I don't really care about that. I think once you learn out to put your ego aside and you just keep focusing on the right relationships and the right clients and doing the right work and also improving your work, I feel like we'll eventually reach that

Starting point is 00:40:10 level where we will make money down the line. Yes, we obviously are making money now. We have expenses to pay, but we're not in a rush to suddenly like, you know, get as much out of our clients as possible. We want to develop relationships where if per se a service is needed to be added to retainer, our clients have utmost trust in us because we've built this long-term relationship with them. We've always been fair and we're always looking out for their best interests. So we're in a quite exciting phase now. We're experimenting a lot. I'm going a lot more into the coaching side of things. I'm helping a creator in Australia with his community.

Starting point is 00:40:47 So if I have to get up at midnight, my time every Tuesday until 2.30 in the morning, you're coaching. Even though it absolutely sucks at times. I'm like, what is this? I'm on that camera and I'm with the community. I'm flooded with energy and my passion just like gets going. I feel like, yeah, that's what I love doing for clients or for other people. I love instilling my energy into people.

Starting point is 00:41:11 And I feel like that's a beautiful thing about the. space with personal branding too is that yes you can have a competitor that could undercut you and take your competitor away but i'd say your most unfair advantage that you can push towards your competitors is your unique personality and the energy you give off you know like if a if a client's coming on to your corner it's their favorite call of the week and they get to joke around with you but at the same time we do cool shit together that's amazing like good luck to the replicating my like driver and energy. So that's why I all practice that.

Starting point is 00:41:45 I meet people continuously because all I'm doing is refining my message, learning how to interact with different people, different industries. And essentially that will be our biggest competitive advantage is when Matt and I sit in a boardroom and do a workshop for a company, we want everyone to leave with massive smiles on their faces after they've done that workshop and talk about us for the next few months. So we really focus on also just being as transparent

Starting point is 00:42:10 as possible. Yes, we've stuffed up a few times. We've had clients that have been upset with us for things, but we're not super, super hard on ourselves because everyone makes mistakes. Startups. Yeah, we're just people. Yeah, and what's the thing that everyone says as well? Success is not linear, right? Like, it's like a roller coaster of a ride, up, down, up down. But as long as those downs are getting less and the ups are getting more, that's all that matters. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And so then what are the goals before, before coming? company? So we're very keen to grow the team.

Starting point is 00:42:46 Personally, in the next three years we want to be the biggest B2B agency in South Africa. That's one of our, what they call it your big, hairy, audacious goal. So that's the, B-Hag. That's the one. Sorry, and what was the number of employees now or how big is the team? So we have a team of four full-time people, but then we also tap into about five to six freelance. answers to you. So that's what I learned also with my previous job too. If you have really good relationships with freelancers and, you know, one of the full-time team members is sick, you can then

Starting point is 00:43:20 rely on people to also help you out with that work and that capacity. It's also a great way to match certain individuals' skill set to the client's needs. So I feel like also when you rely fully on an internal team, you can eventually get stuck in a bit of a bubble and a certain way of thinking, but when you bring in freelancers, they bring a new perspective, they bring in a new process. And once again, it's an opportunity for us and our team to learn from other individuals to help do better work for our clients. So I'd say, yes, the goal is to grow as a company. We're busy now actually for the first time later today, have a full day matina in the boardroom and we're going to plan out all our final goals for the rest of the year for the next two to three

Starting point is 00:44:06 years. But I think right now we're at a point where we've tested a lot and experimented a lot. And now we're going to start formalizing processes. We're going to start using certain tools that we've been testing and essentially just turn our agency a bit more into a firm structure and framework as opposed to being a bit all over the place. Now we're just narrowing down certain departments, channels, processes. So I'd say that's a very exciting time for us. I feel also in South Africa, LinkedIn's becoming more frequently used, which is exciting too, because in the UK, I feel, and let's say in Europe and the US, it's heavily used by people in business and in coaching, etc. But in South Africa, sometimes I feel like we have to sell the platform and our services on top of that.

Starting point is 00:44:53 So it's almost like a two-phase sell process versus one-cell phase process in England. So, yeah, yeah, super interesting time. You should get a commission from LinkedIn. and you know by getting people use the platform yeah i'd actually love to know the the numbers i know you get that platform favik on but i don't think it's too frequent with their stats in south africa because there's not too many people here i mean that would be a nice personal goal for me i'd love to eventually become number one created in south africa but these things take time yeah but you know need to aim high as you said before we be heck i mean we should

Starting point is 00:45:35 good luck, you sounds amazing. Yeah, there's only good things to come. I think also what's really positive for us, and I'm sure other people in this industry too, is yes, AI is evolving. Yes, it can threaten certain areas of people's jobs. But at the same time, I feel like no one will ever, ever be able to replicate a true human emotional connection

Starting point is 00:45:58 between two individuals, and no one will ever really with AI be able to really, in my eyes, get exactly on. point with someone's tonality and tone of voice. So in the end of the day, people will still rather trust a human over an AI bot. So, but then again, it's crazy when you look at, I watched a video yesterday from Gary V, and he was mentioning this whole movement now of AI influential models. So people that aren't real, but look real.

Starting point is 00:46:26 And they're like, why would I pay a model now like, I don't know, let's say 500 pounds for a shoot where I can pay an AI generated model that looks basically like a model five pounds an hour. So I don't know, certain industries, yes, it is going to become tricky. But that's why also once again, let's say if you're using now this Gary V situation, if a model or an influencer or someone has a really strong personal brand, that if a client uses them to do a shoot or something and they get to tap into their personal audience, that's still a win. an AI bot or image of someone doesn't have an audience, right?

Starting point is 00:47:05 You know, I think it's actually one, I've seen it on a page called Hype Beast, but there's a, I think some girl that's an AI-generated model, but she has her own Instagram following, and it's like, it's crazy. Oh my God, I don't need to check it out. It's like also when I know, like, Lewis Hamilton's dog makes more money than I do with one Instagram. And speaking of LinkedIn, I would be curious to know, how did you discover the potential of the platform? Or why did you start there? So my father in the UK always told me about LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:47:43 And I think having once again that connection to LinkedIn and my uncle also being involved quite heavily in business on that side, they just emphasised it was so important to build your network on LinkedIn. I mean, up until a year ago, all I used to do was just reshare posts and just connect with people I knew. And that's about it. And I mean, yeah, I think I had about probably only like 600 connections like a year ago. So like nothing big was happening on my side. I didn't really utilize the platform. I did find myself always scrolling through a lot as opposed to spending all my time on Instagram and TikTok because I did find it very interesting.

Starting point is 00:48:21 Always just been really interested to know like what people are. doing in the business space and especially people in my network. And I think also from working at the agency in Birmingham, too, they offered personal, and they still do offer personal branding as a service too. So if anyone's in Birmingham, they should definitely hit them up there. But I think I just got exposed more to the platform through my boss. He had a really strong personal brand and his brand still growing currently now today too. So I think I got exposed a bit more to it in that period I lived in the UK, which was brilliant for me because then I could come back here and share all my international learnings with the local market here.

Starting point is 00:49:03 So, yeah, I feel like I've always known of LinkedIn. I just feel like right now, yeah, it's just become a lot more focused and now obviously we're running an agency through it. But at the same time, we don't also want to be an agency where we rely fully on one platform because technically you could say LinkedIn has rented real estate. So we're going to eventually start moving towards community building for our clients, retargeting them on their email newsletters and things like that. So there's so much to do. And I know people always like Azel-a-law, but there's so much competition. Like, it's such a great industry where everyone supports each other. I got referred to lead actually in South Africa, South African clients, because he couldn't afford European rates.

Starting point is 00:49:44 So now he contacted me. And I knew of the person actually that referred the person to me. So, you know, it's a supportive environment. It's really cool. And at the end of the day, you can have a small slice of the pie with personal branding and B2B selling and still, you know, do really well for yourself. So I feel like it's so open to everyone. I feel it's more a challenge on the client side. I would say of ensuring that they partner with the right person that actually has genuine experience for someone that's just good at building a quick following and going viral and getting lots of followers.

Starting point is 00:50:18 So, yeah, not too. to hate on anyone or anything like that, but I would just specifically, there are some people that are really good at personal branding and selling themselves without the experience behind them. So that's one thing that is interesting. And that's why it's really important for us to develop an agency because, you know, we just want a full team of different levels of experience combining as one for our clients. So instead of having one solar entrepreneur working on a personal brand, we'll have seven different people bouncing ideas around what that individual can do. The way I see it as well is the more people that are part of your team,

Starting point is 00:50:55 the more chances your team have of seeing different ideas, different articles, speaking to different people. Like my dream has always been as an entrepreneur. I just want to walk into an office of 20 people and know like I help these people create a lifestyle for themselves. That's like that will make me, I'm actually getting goosebumps right now. Like, yes, as I said again, yes, you want to make money and do things like that. So, you know, you can buy your girlfriend something nice or your mom or do something for your parents.

Starting point is 00:51:24 But at the same time, I just want to help uplift other people because I knew I was once at rock bottom. And if I can create a working environment in an agency with MAP where we really empower people that one day they'll leave us and start their own business, we've achieved what we needed to do. And for me, like, yeah, looking at Simon's. Sinek and a few other people. Someone asked me the other day what leadership means to me and I feel like leadership is all about encouraging other people to simply become leaders and

Starting point is 00:51:54 create their own lifestyle for themselves. If you're not employing someone to eventually train them up to go do something themselves, I think you're a bit wrong where you just want to like try keep them in this box and like, you know, give them a pizza on a Friday to make them stay at the office

Starting point is 00:52:10 sort of thing. Like I think that's so skewed. You should never be afraid of losing everyone anyone in the end of the day if you keep doing what you do you'll attract other younger people that can go through your business and those other people might come back to you as well you may do partnerships with them think people are so small-minded in this business world today so yeah we're really keen to start a whole new movement on our side and yeah we're not going to stop until it's done it sounds amazing i wish there were more leaders and more people with such a mindset like you do it will be better work cultures people more

Starting point is 00:52:44 excited to work so I'm glad to hear that yeah I'm really excited to see where the whole work environment goes I know your your Gen Z and your younger generations are moving more and more away from a corporate structure and want that more of remote lifestyle so yeah it's going to be really interesting to see where everything goes and the end of the day I feel like the most important part as well is always make sure you touch base with your team ask them how they feel awesome what they want and work together as a collective to come towards an agreement for something. You know, not like to say, hey, guys, we've got offices now. You're in Monday to Friday now.

Starting point is 00:53:22 You like, speak to people, get to know them better, appreciate them that they also are human. They have their own issues and their own problems. You know, they can't be in the office every day because maybe they have to go do their washing. Like, just be human and like think like what frustrations with you have. And yeah, do the same other people, allow them to also be in an environment that supports their day to day.

Starting point is 00:53:41 and having a bit more of that autonomy and freedom. Yeah, I can't proceed. So, Matt, as we will be approaching the end, do you want to promote yourself, your services, your company, where people can follow you? Yeah, sure. So you can follow us on LinkedIn. Our company is Unify, spelled UNY, FY.

Starting point is 00:54:03 And then also me, Matthew Wheeler Barrett's on LinkedIn. I'm always one of those people that, like, I'd rather just have more and more conversations with people. So if anyone's keen on coaching or looking at us doing their personal brand for them, let's you just send me a DM and I'm always happy to chat. I always believe nothing ever has to come off of a chat that never has to be strings attached. The more and more people we speak to and learn from, the better for everyone in my opinion. Yeah, I will make sure to link in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:54:33 And is there any final message that you would like to share or something that I forgot to ask you. although I had some questions, but we had such a discussion, didn't really have time, but maybe if you want to share something. I feel that the best thing you can do for yourself is, you know, speak to other people and just try and put yourself in uncomfortable situations where essentially you are forced to grow. I feel like, as I said, comfort probably is your worst enemy if you're looking to progress in your career and your life. And I feel like you just need to learn how to do something hard every day, even if it's posting on LinkedIn, even if you're, if it's commenting on someone's post. Like, just really give yourself a go, believe in yourself, and remember that other people have stuffed up, made mistakes, and it's okay.

Starting point is 00:55:20 Like, we're human. We're not perfect robots, as I said before. We should be encouraging each other, uplifting each other, because at the end of the day, if you win, I win. And I feel like there's this whole thing of like, oh, I've got an idea, but I'm not going to tell anyone about it. At the end of the day, the best businesses are the ones that are continuously innovating and growing as a company.

Starting point is 00:55:39 and, you know, if you're still using the same processes from six months ago, you're not growing. So it's all about experimenting, chopping and changing, and, yeah, just pushing forward and learning from other people. And I'd say, yeah, try master the fact that not everyone is watching as much as you think that are with that whole spotlight effect. And yeah, just start doing cool shit, basically. Yeah. I think that's the perfect message to finish with. So thank you so much, Matt. It was awesome to meet you.

Starting point is 00:56:07 I really appreciate it. I feel like I've known you virtually from LinkedIn since I've been following you. So it was awesome to hear about you, about your story. And it was really inspiring chat. So I hope it will help people one day listen to. Yeah, I hope to see many more cool guests on your show too. Thank you. I hope we'll be able to deliver.

Starting point is 00:56:28 So thank you, Matt, and wish you good luck. Cool, thank you. Thank you for listening. If we enjoy the show, please leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast app, get in touch to provide your feedback or share any ideas for future guests. Thank you and see you soon.

Produced By - Building the Biggest South African Agency: An Ambitious Mission | #64: Matt Wheeler-Barrett

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