Produced By - Convert Like a Black Belt: The Martial Art of LinkedIn Sales | #89: Richard Moore

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Richard Moore is a LinkedIn expert with over 100k followers, known for helping consultants and businesses turn engagement into paying clients. His practical, no-nonsense approach focuses on creating content that builds trust, warms up leads, and converts without resorting to pushy sales tactics. From startups to 9-figure brands, Richard has guided countless professionals to cut through the noise and make LinkedIn work for them.But there’s more to Richard than LinkedIn strategies. In this episode, we explore his background in Taekwondo, revealing how the discipline and resilience he gained in martial arts influence his business mindset. His upbeat energy, practical advice, and human-first approach to sales might just change how you think about connecting with your audience, and show you how to finally make your LinkedIn efforts pay off.Connect with Richard:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardjamesmoore/https://www.therichardmoore.com/linkedin-client-accelerator#START www.therichardmoore.comConnect with Tommen:LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ X:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/TomasLoucky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Podcast:Links:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Website:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://produced-by-podcast.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Support:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/ProducedByPodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced (email newsletter):⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://producednewsletter.substack.com/⁠⁠More:Trailblazed (marketing agency):⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://trailblazed.digital/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Epixtory (podcasting agency):⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.epixtory.digital/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced (LinkedIn newsletter):⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7092551882589528065⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced By with Tommen is your weekly dose of inspiration where ambition meets creativity. Join us as we dive into the journeys of content creators, entrepreneurs, and other remarkable individuals who break barriers and redefine success. Each episode shares unique stories, challenges, and triumphs. From heartfelt struggles to incredible successes, these conversations will motivate you to push beyond your limits and chase your own dreams. Whether you're on a creative path or just love great stories, tune in and become part of a community that constantly strives to push the boundaries. Sit back, relax and enjoy. Connect with Tomas:X: https://x.com/TomasLoucky⁠⁠⁠Stan: https://stan.store/TommenLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠⁠Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠⁠Unproduced:Newsletter: https://unproduced.substack.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@unproducednotesSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/033Ddo8ibDlLYoaP7FFLIWMore:Links: https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://producednewsletter.substack.com/⁠The Podcast Club: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/25420030/Tools & gear that support the show:Metricool: https://f.mtr.cool/HRJBZKRiverside: https://riverside.sjv.io/vDnDodFavikon: https://www.favikon.com?fpr=tommenRa Optics: https://ra-optics.myshopify.com/discount/TOMMEN?rfsn=8803777.591d19JamX: https://jamx.ai/podcasters-offer?ref_id=e02d48af-ef66-4e76-b804-c2e8d282a8bfSome links are affiliate links, which means I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. If you find them useful, using these links helps keep the podcast running. Thank you!  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I feel fairly equipped to comment on this because I was making sales when I had a thousand followers and no one knew who I was. And the design was awful, Thomas. And like, you should have seen how bad the posts were. And there was no personal brand. It was just brute force that I was using. And I now have 100,000 followers. And, like, it's still the same. And, like, I'm not about going viral because I'm not vain or insecure.

and I'm quite happy with the fulfillment I get of my life without doing that. So I'm not salty. I now have loads of followers and I still feel the same. So ultimately, everyone knows I'm right. But we all have to get to a point where we finally admit to ourselves that big fat vanity numbers are there as compensation. If they matter to us, there is compensation for not doing the good stuff and not getting the real thing, which is the deals with customers. Before we dive into today's episode, please hit that subscribe button.

Your support helps us grow and inspire more people on their journeys. Thank you. Hello, Richard. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Great to be here. So, Richard, in case there is someone who doesn't know, can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, so I'm Richard Moore and I have 21 years.

at currently of of working in selling. And really simply, my first 10 years was corporate selling from cold calling or selling internet marketing in 2003, all the way up to sales director. And then in 2014, I left the city in London and started working for myself, around my, running my business since then, helping people to sell better and convert, but elegantly. So it's a lot less on cold outreach. now it's much more about warm inbound and what that looks like, but the art essentially of having people want to buy from you and how to not screw it up and how to not be irritating. And in the last seven years,

my focus predominantly has been using LinkedIn as my vehicle. Originally it was Facebook because that contextually makes a lot of sense for business. And in more recent time, the focus has been on building my community called art of sell where every week we have a masterclass from very very premium speakers so people who've worked at the highest level with the likes of ascension or louis viton or you know coca cola or net biggest companies yeah absolutely the biggest because otherwise it's just richard's cute friends on linkedin and so what's really exciting we're learning from people who have operated at the billion dollar mark

and just really know it from the top and of course there's workshops and master classes with Little Me as well. But I love that we work, I'm focused very much on that elegance and classiness in selling as opposed to being an irritant and the approach being one of just constant non-stop battering people because no one gets fulfilled with those kind of approaches. So I'm really enjoying doing that. And yeah, like long may it continue. I like how you emphasized before to do it elegantly.

that stood up to me. Absolutely. I think, you know, it's interesting that people find this so fascinating when they get into it because it's less about selling because that's just technique. Or that's just the process. It's more about communication and understanding the nuance of words, moments, emphasis, dynamics, emotion. As we're recording this at this time, LinkedIn has already.

commissioned five LinkedIn learning courses for me that I did last year for them. And at the moment, I'm in the middle of writing out the detail on a 22 video long course that we're going to be shooting over in America in a couple of months time called the nuance and finesse of communication. So that's what they've asked me to do because it really is something that isn't just for those who are cold calling or selling or anything like that. It's also for those who are interacting into dark departmentally or within a business or even if you're just trying to convey an idea or a concept in a meeting being able to sell it in a way that has you know elegance and poise in the way you communicate really matters so i'm excited about building that and

i get to nerd out even more about that kind of topic yeah it's it's impressive so is it going to be like some kind of LinkedIn masterclass provided specifically by LinkedIn yeah so the premium members in LinkedIn have access to a thing called LinkedIn Learning, which has been around for several years. And so the courses I've done so far are just nano courses. They're just 10 minutes long, where this is like a big premium, all singing, all dancing one. So that's why I'm very kindly, they're flying their studio in California to shoot the whole thing properly. So that'd be nice. Rather than doing it on my mobile, they're actually going to do it. Like a selfie. Yeah, exactly. Rather than all that, they've got an actual crew. Hopefully I won't be, you know, in

makeup or anything. But it'll be nice to have proper cameras and do it all. It will look really, really pro then, which should be good fun. I mean, it sounds like an amazing idea and of course, we'll be excited. And I would be curious if we go more back in time. Is it actually something that you've been also interested in as a kid, like once you grow up to pursue this type of career? I think this is interesting this because the answer feels like it should be no. But there's little bits in my past where it's like, huh, there's something in this. So basically, I was incredibly shy, Thomas. So, like, really shy as a kid.

I don't believe you. I know, no, I never pleased. I think I'm making it up because it's a nice story. But, like, in my teenage years, I was super shy. Like, I was also an introvert, so I wasn't naturally a social type. And I wanted to be in academia. I just wanted to be at university. So I did my bachelor's in history.

And I did my master's in history. and then I wanted to do a PhD in history and I didn't get funding and so I had to get a job and so I just, and it's funny because you see a lot of influencers trying to get lots of attention and they say things like

I applied for 300 jobs like it's nothing like that I applied for one job and got it straight away like it wasn't hard but the reason why I got the job partly was because it was cold calling and no one wants to do cold calling and so I've always always

Yeah, no, they don't. And so of course they said they gave me an opportunity. But what's interesting is that I had to have a job because I needed money because I wasn't going to be doing my PhD. So I wanted to stay at university and be a lecturer and that, but that didn't happen. So I was like, well, I need a job and it was just the first one that came along. And what's interesting is that if you're a very shy person, it's not easy getting on the phone and doing cold calling. So what was handy was that I didn't have to worry about. how I came across if I was sweating and things like that because it's just dialing on a phone. So that helped a lot. And I think that if I look back really, I've always been really fascinated in how people interact and that kind of level. And I think I've always, I think I didn't realize at the time that one of my things that I'm very astute at is picking up on the little unsaid signals and communications. And of course, that role, we were professionals at this.

And it wasn't just like hit the phones and just that's the end of it. I was so fortunate to have managers who'd done this for years and made this a real art. And to give you a sense of it, I had a manager once, because when we were on a call,

we'd have like a headset. You'd like getting a call center. But your manager could listen in as well. And it was interesting because I remember one of my managers was like, you need to pay attention to how they're breathing. Like, how do they breathe when you say a thing? Now, they would say things, rather than just like, just say this or just read this script.

They'd be like, slow down now. Now say it with this way. Now, really hammer this point. And you'd work together like that all day. It was practical. There was no sitting at a computer. It was all day long. If I got someone on a call, I'd have the manager with me and we'd be like, I'd be like mimicking them.

And we'd have basically all day, every day was this masterclass on the elegance of delivery. And of course, part of this role was emails as well. And like, looking like, how are they phrasing it? Like, why did they say it that way? And trying to, because everything is about trying to close the sale. And so we have to think, like, what's the play? And it was so interesting that I found it fascinating. And of course, what holds your interest is making money.

And so I got, it was unheard of. I got a sale in my first week. And then I got a sale in my second week, which is a really big one. And everyone was like, let's go. And that was my motivation a lot. But also I had such a little amount of money. I had to make sales. So I had that. But, but I, you know, if you combine a number of other things, like I started to come out of my shell more. Money gave me confidence. Also, my mother was very much like, she instilled in me this, this kind of ethos of if you choose to do something, you don't get to quit. So there was no question in my head of like, oh, maybe I should just go and get another job.

It was like, just do it. Like there's not, if it's hard, so what, grow up and just fix it? And so I was spending money in, you know, on like courses and books on training myself. Most people have to, yeah, most people don't do that. They go home at the end of the day and that's the end of it or go to the pub. When I, and I was enjoying London, but I was also like investing in myself. So I think that that kind of. got me going. And so, of course, selling is a people sport. And so a year and a half in,

I became a team manager. So now I had people to look after. And I was training them. And so now it's the interaction of people in real life. And then I moved to a conference of the company. So we did virtual conferences. We did in-person conferences. And the whole thing is always about human sport of interaction. And so that was the case all the way through to when I was headhunted for a recruitment company. So I've kind of had it in my blood. I think also, though, because I was a team manager from 18 months in, all the way through the rest of that corporate career, I was always teaching, essentially, I was training people. And so when I exited corporate and started my consultancy, it was like, it was just, it was there that I was going to be teaching still. And I was, so I was always

training people. And I, you know, here I am in my mid 40s still doing that. So there was this thread of like, This love of the way we interact with people because of the outcome being such a wonderful thing. You get the celebration of a deal. You get money in your bank and you get this feeling of like, I took someone from zero, like literally had no idea who I was. In fact, it wasn't even zero. I took negative. I don't want it to call to half an hour later.

Yeah, here's $6,000. It's really amazing. And then, of course, on top of that, all of the teaching. So in many ways, I got to communicate, but instead of writing essays, I did it on the call. And I got to teach, but instead of lecture at university, I got to, like, build my own business and doing it. So in many ways, I got what I wanted, but, you know, I just didn't have to fund a PhD to get there. But that's the romantic mindset view of it all. Yeah, I'm not going to lie, because I think that when people say call to calling, it usually sounds quite boring.

Now, I don't want to offend anyone. But now, the way you said that, I think if you managed to reframe it, just as you said, ongoing improvement, trying to find ways how you enjoy it, how to improve, how to learn, it just makes it much more exciting. It does. And I am one of the proudest things of my whole life. And I've got kids and they're wonderful. But one of the top things I'm most proud of is that I went through that and learned selling. because if you can sell, you are like you can look after yourself.

So the one thing I knew when I launched my company was, well, at least I know how to make money. It might be ugly. It might be inefficient, but at least I can make money. My oldest daughter was seven when she made her first sale online. So it was wonderful moment. I have to share. There's a wonderful moment. We were walking past a house in the street.

And I'm sure you've seen this where people, like, they want to get rid of something. something so they just put a sign on it saying take for free and it was a little like buggy like that you play in if you're like a toddler like a really young kid and you could tell that she was my daughter because rather than that's all that size I have it her the words that left her mouth were I could sell that I was like yes but it was all dirt and she was like will you help me so I carried this thing home and in that day from finding this thing next to someone's house we cleaned it up. She got her baby sister to help her clean it and she gave us some commission, which was nice. We put it on Facebook marketplace and she sold it for 10 pound that afternoon.

And I remember the doorbell rang. What's crazy is that grown adults can't do this mostly because they're in their heads and you got a kid doing it. But like the doorbell rang I remember and this woman had arrived with 10 pound to buy it. And I remember my daughter was like, oh my God, they're here. And I said, go and go answer to the door yet then. This is your customer. And She took, she was like, this is amazing. And so it's so funny since then, like, both of the kids, if they want more money, yeah, they have pocket money. But if they want more money, they're like,

what stuff can I sell? Because they make more money. And, you know, nowadays it's Roblox. They play Roblox all the time. Yeah, yeah. They want online money. They're like, well, what could, what teddies could I sell? And then I could have some more robots to spend.

So it is great seeing that kind of thing happen. And I just, yeah, I think that it's such a, powerful skill and if you're romantic about it like it is i'm so pleased i did it i really am and i know at the time i probably thought it was quite abusive to do but i really really am like the belief then you have in your ability to go big make more money and like if you want more things so go make more money it's just such a wonderful thing i urge people to work on it at least their communication even if even if it doesn't seem to be in your job description, it's something you should absolutely work on. And I really like the enthusiasm that you have when you talk about it.

Because as I said before, even if it might seem like a boring topic or something that I'm not interested about, if someone who talks about it passionately makes it fun and interesting, it makes it completely different. Yeah. Well, you know how it is. Like, all things are boring unless you make them exciting. And if you're into it, then it makes a different. and it's on us to reframe. So rather than being a job,

because for many people it was just a job, for me it was like, this is my ATM. That's what my manager said. It was like, that phone is money. And every time you're not on the phone, you're not making money.

And I'm like, oh, this is crazy. And he's like, you would point out people. He was like, that guy there drives that car. This guy here has three properties. And it's like,

it's all up to you. And I remember, I was like 24. And he was like, you need to now start investing some money and like, like, why haven't you, why haven't you got a pension? Like, when are you buying your first house kind of thing? And I was like, wow, it's amazing what's possible. And so, yeah, it's like, it's like we have always got opportunity, but if we choose to see it as that. Or we can just be like, oh, the universe happens to me.

Instead, it's like I own the outcome and scary. It's like everyone is against me. Nothing is working. Yeah, it's absurd. I'm like, that's a victim mentality. instead I genuinely act, I suppose, I know it's a delusion, but why not? I act as though universe is rigged in my favour because I steer into the result I want. And I don't always get it right, but I tend to do quite well because I'm like, I've got this, just go.

And I think that kind of attitude is how we should live anyway, but as being very philosophical. No, but I think it's important, always some supportive words are appreciated. it. And I would be curious, did you still have idea to come back to his story or were you still interested or you got so much into sales that you weren't interested anymore? Yeah, I mean, for the first couple of years, I was like, well, I mean, obviously I went to stay in sales. And I'll go back soon. And then like just time passes. And I had, you know, I was having a good time. And then you get a promotion or then it's like, oh, can I make this much money? Can I make this much money? And like, I just enjoyed the ride. And I, so if you answer your

question. I mean, it's possible that in the future, I go and do a PhD, but I don't, I won't do a PhD because I need it. I'll do it for fun. But I just don't, like, that's a massive job. Like, anyone who's done a PhD and I have, I'm very fortunate to know a lot of friends from when I did my masters who, they're like, is a full time job. Like, if it's a part time job, it's going to take you years more. I don't, I don't feel I have the bandwidth for that. And I think as the years go on, it's fading. I still take a lot of interest in the subject, but just as a hobby. So I don't think I'll do it. I'm loving what I'm doing too much.

And that, of course, is because I've designed the work that I do. I get to dictate what it is. So why would I do anything other than this? So probably I won't, I think, in the end. But still, is there a favorite period, like from history that you enjoy? So, well, the one I chose, this is interesting. So, well, it was interesting if you're interested history. As you go up the levels, so we have, you know, our high school exams, and then I did my bachelor's, then my master's.

You focus more and more. And so the period I focused on was what's known as early modern history, so 1500 to 1700 and English history. And funnily enough, I was very interested in social history, so the interaction of people. And so my masters was in social and religious history. because that was all very intertwined and religion was intertwined with magic and things like that. It was kind of fun. So my thesis, which was essentially my first chapter for my PhD, but my thesis for my masters was called the 10% and it was about male witchcraft in England. And I did a little bit boring at times, like the data study.

Because it had never been done before. All witchcraft writing tended to be about women. because mostly they were tried as witchy. And so I didn't realize I'd be talking about this. This is fun. But basically, I uncovered, through doing some research in that period in England, that of those convicted of witchcraft, about 10% were male. And there was a number of reasons why.

One of the main ones was, when stuff goes wrong in your village, you blame the old lady because you think they're a witch. When you've killed all the old ladies and stuff still goes wrong, you're like, well, who do I blame now? My cow just played. And of course, I don't know about disease. So maybe it's the old man then instead. So that's kind of what happened a lot of the time.

But the idea was, you know, that thesis was only a master's thesis. So it wasn't huge. But the PhD would be to go extra deep. And no one had studied that. Like no one at all? No, there was a lot of European witchcraft. And annoyingly, literally the year I was writing the thesis, a book came out called male witch who is in Europe.

I'm like, oh, no. They barely touched on England in one moment because England wasn't as exciting. You know, we only hung our witches, whereas on the continent, they burnt them and things that as far more exciting. But yeah, so it just kind of touched on male witches in England, whereas I was like, I want to do a real deep dive on it. So, yeah, that's what I studied. And it's funny because when whenever, you know, in a quiz or something, if history,

history comes up. People are like, oh, well, you'll know the art. And so I know all things like Henry the 8th and all the monarchs and that. I just don't know anything about it because I studied people on the ground. And so I found that far more interesting personally. No, it's pretty cool. And when I was young, I wasn't really into history. But as I've been growing older, I'm also interested in. So I'm glad that you still have this special. Yeah, I do have that interesting. Sure. Yeah. And then another topic. that I was really interested about because I didn't know it, but then I found out and I dug a bit deeper. It's actually your experience with martial arts. So for the people who don't know,

can you please tell us a bit more just to understand how much experience you've got because you've got a lot of experience? Thank you. It's a past life, really. So yeah, Taekwondo is my martial art or was my martial art. When I was at university, in my first year, I met this guy, a wonderful guy, since lost touch with called Adam. And it was right at the start. It was like, we don't want to, we don't, we want to join clubs. We should do like a sports club. That'd be good.

And I was like, I don't really want to do football. And he was like, what about, because he ended, he was really interested in like the Orient and China. And I think he went and lived there or something. And he was like, what about taekwondo? I was like, sure, let's do it. So when I was 19, I started taekwondo lessons at Northampton University. And so I did three years there and did some grades and did some tournaments.

And then I went to Warwick for my masters, and I tried a bit there, but it was the wrong type. It was a different type of taekwondo. But then when I moved to London, I picked up again with the amazing Master de Silver up near Wembley. And he helped me, like, really move to a level of excellence. And so I became an instructor. So I trained a lot there. And I meddled, I meddled nationally a lot. I meddles Europeans, silver medal I got as well in the mid-2000s.

And then I did my black belt. and things like that. So yeah, I'm a fourth degree black belt and I'm very proud of it. And you get, you know, you get a special uniform

when you're fourth degree with a strike down the side, which is not. But one of the proudest moments was when I left, when I left London, I set up my own academies here. And I took some students

from white belt all the way up to black belt. And that really was a beautiful journey. So, but yeah, May, 2018, I closed it all and stopped. And I'm like, I've achieved everything. I want to achieve and something had to give Thomas.

I was like, I had a young family. I had a business, which is like having a baby. And I'm like, something has to give. And I was like doing all this stuff. So I just thought, you know, I've done what I wanted. And I don't want to kind of start to resent it. So now's the time I left. And so, yeah, I'm really fond of it.

It kept me really fit and healthy in 2000. Because if you're working super hard all day, you need to decompress. And so, you know, Taekwondo used to start with like 10, 20 minutes of skipping, you know, like the speed rope. And then we'd do a load of boxing. And so, and then we'd do our lesson. And then we'd have black belt lessons. So it'd be like a three hour evening.

And you'd forget about everything and just work on not getting hit in the face. And it was kind of a, it was a nice thing to do. But yeah, I really loved it. And well done. You researched, you did your research. It's, I, to be honest, I wasn't expecting it. Then I said, I was so, wow, this is pretty cool. I'm curious to find out more.

Because I... What I like, because I'm not an aggressive guy. I'm a lover. What I love was the precision in it. I really like a bit like this thing with communication that we're doing at the moment. And I just think it's really excellence was what it's about.

And so to meddle in the patterns, so that was my forte. I meddled a bit in sparring, but mostly in patterns. It's like these sequences of sometimes 60, 70 moves. and you're being judged by masters on the precision, like the position of the hands, the position of the feet,

everything has to be spot on. And you have the strength to like hold your legs in the right position, like hold them up in a kick place and all of that. I absolutely loved it. And I really got into that precision. And it showed, you know, so my students then meddled mad amounts of medals because they,

we focus so much on that. And I loved the art side of it, as opposed to just fighting someone. Like, that's martial art. I like the kind of the history and the art and the symbolism behind it as well. And it's South Korean, right? If I'm not mistaken. It's from Korea.

That's correct. In 1955 it was first developed. But of course, there's so much that flowed into it, karate and all the other things as well. And for the people maybe who don't know anything about it, how long, for example, does it take from white belt to black belt? Obviously, the answer is it depends. But if you're training a couple of times a week, we used to say it should take about three years. And the way to look at it, so Grandmaster is ninth degree black belt. That's the highest you can go.

And the way it works is for every belt, when you're black, for every belt number you have, you have that many years really to get to the next one. So, you know, if I was a fourth degree black belt, it should be four years so you get to your fifth degree. Just being good enough isn't good enough because it's about experience. Yeah. And like that's really, I really like that because it rewards experience. and time rather than just talent.

But the idea is that the colour belts are about a foundation. And so people think about the black belt being the pinnacle. But actually the way to look at it is that that first black belt is the beginning. Like your basic training is your colour belts. And I'm not taking anything away from it because that's a lot of work. But, you know, you write a thesis. You have like a, it's a proper degree. Each time you had to write like a big, fat essay for each of my second, third and fourth degrees.

and I loved that kind of side of it. But it's really great because it requires you to go really deep on the art and commit a lot. But beyond the level I got to, I would have had to really make it my world if I was going to take it further. And master at seventh, Dan, is like, you're giving your life now to it. And like, my instructor is like essentially a professional instructor.

That's what he does. And so I was like, that's not, that was a fork in the road at that point. and I thought I won't do anymore. Yeah. And on top of everything, you've got some pretty cool pictures. I saw what you shared on LinkedIn, where we were like a fly in the air, like, you know, action hero or something like that. Yeah, a Yop Chaggy, a sidekick.

Yeah, there's some cool pictures. There's just not that many pictures of me doing much. I don't know why. We never took pictures much, and it kind of annoyed me, but never mind. There's a few that are floating around. And, yeah, there's definitely some kind of money shots there. in terms of those ones. For some presentations, when you are speaking somewhere to show it about yourself.

Yeah, exactly. The things we always ask, like, could you do it now? Like, well, not quite. Training, honestly, the training was insane. Like, when I was doing the Europeans, I think it was 2006 it was, in Germany. It was three to five times a week we'd be training. I'd be training like before, or three to five days a week, I should say, because I'd train before work, then I'd go to work, then I'd train in the evening,

maybe stay at my instructor's house and then go back to work from there the next day. It was the amount of times I threw up from like the cardio work, like running up and down. It's just crazy amount of work. So it was a journey. I loved pushing myself. But, you know, now my thing is endurance now. So I do running and road cycling is my. So I've got my first ultra marathon at the end of April.

And yeah, so I'm looking forward to that. It's only a baby ultra, as they call it. But last year I did some 100 mile bike rides. And I do love the mental side of locking in for hours and being able to push. I do like getting to a point where you push yourself and seeing what the mind can do there. And I think being strong in the hard stuff is really fascinating place to be. I agree. And I also like to have some kind of physical activity that helps you to.

to switch off and do something completely different? It's really healthy. I think it's just good to blow off steam. Like Monday night, just a 10-mile run is a lovely way to end the day. And there's none around. It's a little bit kind of dark and cold and wet here in January. But I'm like, just go and, you know, spend like a couple of hours to go in for a run or whatever like that is good training.

But it's also just nice to forget everything and just focus on. And that's my development because I always listen to audiobooks. So that's how I grind through a lot of books as well. So I can get a lot of... Want to take your podcast to the next level? At Epic Story, we help you launch, improve and market your podcast with expert guidance. Whether you're just starting out or refining an existing show, we've got you covered. Visit EpicStory.org and bring your Epic Story to life.

So just as you mentioned it, it will be one of my questions later on. So can you share some recommendations or some impactful ones? For books, yeah, 100%. So my favourite, and in my opinion, most important book on the planet is called On the Shortness of Life by Seneca. So the ancient kind of... Oh, Sto. It's really important that people read it. It's really short books, like 60 pages.

And when you, if you read it and you get it, you really realize that you have to get your priorities right. And people... And one of the powerful kind of quotes in there is about how people... treat money like they're immortal. Sorry, treat time rather like they're immortal and they can all time in the world. And they hold on to their money like it's a finite resource and it should be really the opposite.

And I do remember the first time I read it, I was like, wow, that's really blown my mind. Another like more business slash sales slash interaction book, which I really love is by Mark McCormick. It's called What They Don't Teach You at Harbour Business School. I think it's a really powerful book. It's loads of microchapters. And it's the stuff. It's like the soft skills in business. It's things like, you know, what does eye contact look like? What does the pause in how you speak look like? What about meeting people in the room? Like all of that experience in a book, it was absolutely incredible. I think that's a really powerful one. There's hundreds of others as well. And I like a lot of behavioral psychology kind of books as well. Nudge is good by Thala and Cath and Sunstein. But the other one, it's really rare one by a guy called there's Kana Zavari.

and Miller wrote it together and it's called Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters. So it's a bit like free economics, but instead of economics, it's for like behavior and the way humans interact. And I think it's such a good book. These are kind of rare ones because I'm not going to say the one thing or, you know, like. Richie that's a good at. Yeah, Richard and like Crossinley, because everyone says that. You know, obviously read the innovator's dilemma and all that kind of thing. But like these ones people don't really think of and they're really good.

And have you got any like a favorite biography book? Yeah, I read a lot of biographies. Shoe Dog by Phil Knight, the family. Nike. Yeah, I don't know if you read it. It's incredible. And I think the most powerful bit is that when he looks back at the end, when they get their IPO and he's just like,

we're all suddenly incredibly rich, but all I wanted to do was just do it all over again. Like I started enjoying the journey. I love how it's all about this, like the grit. Like he's getting the shoes out the back of his car and he's going to a track to convince athletes to try them on. And I do love that scrappiness. Titan about Rockefeller.

That's a really good biography as well. And the Richard Branson ones have not been that impressed with. There's one that I would have been. Losing my virginity, isn't it? Yeah, it's okay. They're all right. There's a, what put me off, I think it was one of the, I can't remember which one it was by him.

And there's a bit towards the end. And he said, you kind of have to believe him because he's older and that. But he said, of course, as you get older, you lose your ambition. And I'm like, I don't like the idea of my ambition starting to fade as I get older. So I was like, I'm going to be in denial. I'm going to choose to not be like that. I'm sure he might be right. But, you know, that kind of put me off a bit.

The other one, and the name escapes me. Oh, yeah, I think it's called the Spanx story. about Sarah Blakely. Sarah Blakely is one of my heroes. One of my top five entrepreneurs. If people have not read that, it is, it's amazing. Again, it's about scrappiness. It's about, like, it reminded me of, like, when I was cold calling.

And I gave you the glamour, the story of it earlier. But, like, cold calling really is hundreds of dials away. Yeah, the reality. Yeah, to get one sale. And, like, and she was, like, everyone was saying no. And she was traveling all over the place to, and people like, what the hell are you talking about? Why do you cut the feet off your tight? And eventually someone went for it and like she's incredible. She's iconic. So like that's a

really good one too. How about you? What would you recommend in biographies? It's probably going to be kind of obvious one that many people read, but I really loved one by Walter Isaacson about Steve Jobs. Yes. Because I think it's also one of the first big biographies that I read. And I think that Walter Isaacson, is just amazing biographer. Yeah, he is, yeah. Yeah, that is quite a beefy read, but I do agree. I've never been that much of a Steve Jobs fan.

I obviously respect him, and I think he's very iconic in many ways, but I've never been that fussed. But then I'm Team Android, never been Team Android. So I will be like that. I'll be a bit salty, won't I? Now we see the reason why. Exactly right, exactly. I don't want to like it.

And I have to agree with Shudok. I think that one is amazing. It is incredible. Besides that, I will need to do my homework because you share some great recommendations. I didn't know all of those. Yeah, it's a lot out there. And now I would regret if I didn't do enough of my preparation.

But in case I'm wrong, I will probably have to cut it out. But are you also planning to write a book? Or if you wrote one and I didn't research it properly? So there's two books I want to write. one is half done and I know everyone's going to be like well why don't you finish it of course but like it's not as easy as that because last year when I started writing I also launched my art of cell community and I'm like yeah I mean of course I could knuckle down do more but like leave me alone I'm doing enough other things so basically half written the first book I want to write

which is sales tip for every day of the week and so I've written the tips but I need to put it into a book, like, and I've just not got around to that bit. And what I deliberately did was I made sure it wasn't 365, because it's enough for a tip a day, but not, but including, but not including weekends. Because one of the tips is don't work every single day, because that's not sustainable. So it's deliberately for the weekdays. And I want it to be like a bit of like, okay, I can read, I can dip in and out kind of thing, you know, rather than have to read it all.

The second book I'm so not going to do for a long time. And essentially, you could call the second book my PhD is like my thesis on elegant selling and the nuance of interaction and all that kind of thing. I'm just not going to do it now because I'm on the pitch at the moment. And of course I could write a book. But like, I've got other things I want to do. So I have no appetite to write that now. Yeah. And the one I'm kind of half, half foot in at the moment is, is a, is a.

lot more accessible to write a bunch of tips. So, like I said, I've done that bit. So, yeah, they will come eventually, but I'm like, all things in the right order. And right now, I've other priorities. Of course. I can imagine there must be more than enough. And the thing is, there's that beautiful saying, which is you can do anything, but you can't do everything. Yeah, it's a good one.

And would it be like a kind of regular, let's say, 300 pages book? Like, or what about the line? When I write the second one, it will be a bit of a tone. That'll be my magnum opus. So I really hope to indulge and go really deep. And I think that's why I need the space to do it because I really want to enjoy the process. It's not because I must get a book for a lead magnet or it's not because I must get a book for like for the flex. I would write a book because I want to create that as a legacy.

But I'm doing other stuff at the moment. But yeah, I think that'll be, it'll probably be a nice fat book and it will be, it's one of those things, isn't it? where you write the book and you'll be proud of it. And then five years later, you're like, oh, man, I have so much, so much more I can put in that. And you do another version, I suppose. Yeah, I was going to say that's when you write the next one, because people will have a big expectation.

The tricky thing of you, you do a second edition, and that way you don't have to write it all again. You just make some changes. Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. And then if we can move to the topic of LinkedIn, because obviously that's a big topic and a lot of, or a majority of audiences on LinkedIn. So can you tell us maybe how did you or when did you or why did you start on LinkedIn in the first place?

Well, firstly, I mean, Facebook was all going very well. You know, I made my six figures. I've got a six figure business on Facebook. But like it was never, it was never perfect because the problem with Facebook is what I call pure social. It's you're competing often with someone's holiday pictures or their, wedding photos and stuff like that. And it, you know, contextually was a little off compared to LinkedIn.

And I remember in late 2017, which is now such a long time ago, I was just like, oh, this is interesting. There's something going on over there because people on some people on Facebook were talking about it a tiny bit. And what had happened was you could write status updates and you could post, but it wasn't really much of a thing. You could even upload stuff as well. But what they did in August, I think it was of 2017, was they allowed video.

to be uploaded. So suddenly the content game started to happen. And so I was like, I remember, I don't remember the post was, like when the post was, but I remember it's towards the end of 2017 and I called it on a Facebook live, I think it was, because I was doing a live every single week. And I remember saying

something's going on over there. And so the start of 2018, I started posting. I was like, come on, let's go and do it. And honestly, like, we're still early now. If you start posting on LinkedIn now, you're still early, because the majority of people just don't post. There's only like some tiny minority of people actually like 1% and so that post. And even then most posts are rubbish. So like there's the reality quite low. Oh, it really is.

I mean most posts are and I really mean most are a business says here's our latest press release. Here's our latest white paper or we just won an award but no one asked. You know, so it's a content creator, entrepreneurial bubble is a tiny one. And, and, you know, so there's a big opportunity there. But back then, you couldn't miss. Like, honestly, there was genuinely a tiny group. There was, it felt like there was like 50 of us and that was it. And everyone knew each other really well.

And we were all collaborating. And I remember I was at like, I don't know, a thousand followers or whatever. And it was just like starting for me. And I'm just posted all the time. And within, like, within the first month, I was like, I was getting calls and I know because that would be my experience. My ability would take me there anyway. But like, I was getting deals right away.

And I was just like, this is so good. And then when you start, I remember when the documents thing really kicked off. Yeah. Like the carousel thing, you'd get 100,000 views on a post. Like you could not miss. And everyone was watching. And so it's, and the thing, of course, back then there wasn't AI content. So if you.

So you are saying no AI. comment. I cannot imagine. No AI comments. Life was good. What was good back then was that the average person wrote terrible posts you know, whereas nowadays you can use, like, I know people who

are like they do AI images of themselves. So they are now dialing up the genetics because you know it helps a lot to be good looking. I mean, people don't feel they're allowed to say that but like it helps a lot if you're good looking.

And so there's all that stuff. But what's interesting is that it was a lot of the content was just so dull back then. And what people missed, and they still miss it now, is that they weren't writing really for the audience they should have been writing for. They weren't showing an awareness of the issues and inner dialogue that a buyer was having. And so doing that, it made people go like, oh, wow, you really get me. Like you, I feel seen, you know, and that would just open so many doors. And like, it wasn't hard for me to start, like, getting people help, helping people with a conversion.

And it just took off from there, really. So I'm really glad I was in early, but I don't want people to think, oh, I've missed the boat. You just haven't. What you've got to remember now, though, is that the barrier to entry is a bit higher because it costs you almost nothing to, like, if you, if we just record this, and then shove it into AI, it will within minutes, give us some viral clips. It will add the caption. Like, I used to spend hours before I had my team editing and, like, adding in, like, the transitions

and the captions and all that stuff's done in minutes now. And all that stuff is just, it just matters, though, that you recognize it's important to not play the same game as all the influencers do, because if you're starting out, they're at a different level. but it's also important to recognize what average now looks like. Average is platitudes and its obvious common sense, like average kind of advice. Yeah. Packaged up as here's how to 10X your profile or here's how to get this thing.

Like if you can dare to give your own opinion and like dare to polarize opinion a bit, you tend to stand out as being fairly unique. And there's something to be said for AI content. I use AI sometimes for ideation and stuff like that and for layout and so on. But like ultimately it needs to be that if you're any good at what you're doing, you're an expert in some form and got some good experience to share, then you need to be going inside or something, pulling out the stuff that people probably don't know. Because if you can share a blind spot or something we're unaware of,

the audience is going to be like, that person gets it. They're clearly a little bit more. What we don't need more of is people giving us lists of other creators who are doing really well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that they can tag them so that they can maybe get some more engagement. So they might get some followers. So that somehow it all works out. Because that's why, and this thing will break eventually.

Like that will break. And, you know, I hopefully will get there soon where everyone's so bored of the, of the AI, templated staff that it becomes it's a turnoff and I think already you start seeing it with the comments I will comment on this actually with the AI comments is that you're seeing the humans in the comment feed the humans are starting to step away from those AI comments we're really getting good at this obviously an AI comments so we just ignore it completely and you can see the organic interesting interactions with each other really happening and if it's just AI comments we're just like we are tolerating it, but we're like just like whatever.

The problem is that AI will get better. But at the moment, AI comments are basically, you can almost, you can almost imagine what the prompt is. It's like, be really agreeable, write something nice. And the really clever ones are like, and now ask a question. But like they miss the point so much. And those of you considering AI commenting, what you're actually considering is to try and avoid spending time doing it.

And of course, AI is saving us a lot of time, but there's some things you should, and this is not me being a dinosaur, but there's a lot of things that don't require the time save. It's not about being efficient when you're interacting with people. It's about being effective. And so it's madness to think that the moment where we interact with the individual, which is where humans come together and where the transatlantic,

action of trust can start to happen. It's madness to think that AI will sort all that out for you. Trust isn't that effective compared to you picking up on the nuance. That's the bit where AI isn't good enough yet. But what the problem is, and this is the problem, is the majority think that social selling and posting is all about volume. Because the fact is, with enough volume, you will get the occasional thing turning into a deal which feeds your confirmation bias that it works

a bit like when I did 500 dials a week I got one sale so oh, calling works well yeah it does in the same as if you buy enough lottery tickets you'll win the lottery but it's not an efficient route is it? So that's

why I'm like my whole thing is being competent rather than volume If anyone is always pushing volume, then it's a lack of competency. There's a really powerful takeaway here, which is we think, because the mainstream narrative says it, that volume is king. Volume helps, yes, to get reps and to build our awareness of something. But the first thing you should be really trying to map towards is be better. Better before more.

Otherwise, this is what we're seeing. otherwise that happens is you're scaling your incompetence and your lack of ability to convert. So I've got customers who last year made over a million dollars, like coaches or solo people. And they made over a million not by going viral. They don't have incredible followers accounts. And they never have like hundreds of leads. They do a few interactions every day, but they do it well. So that's what we want to map towards.

Because it's not fulfilling. ever to spend hours and hours and hours every day writing comments on LinkedIn. It's not fulfilling to just go viral all the time and never get any sales. It's really fulfilling to actually help someone and get them. They're saying this really made the difference. Thank you. And here's a lot of money because you deserve it. And like that is, it's just, I say this a lot, but like, it's just funny how when

people start making hundreds of thousands of dollars, they like just don't care so much about the follow account and things like that, you know. And so we just got to always remember, like, with things like AI comments, like, what are you really trying to do? Are you trying to avoid the human interaction bit? Because that is one thing you can't get around. Ultimately, the reason why you're on LinkedIn is client acquisition.

And deals are about an interaction between two human beings. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. So at some point, you're going to have to interact with someone. If you can AI your way through the whole thing, then good for you. But I just think that it needs to involve the person. It does. And I think there's a lot of people who just are scared or don't want to put in the work. So they hope that systems and automation will get them.

But I think one thing to finish on on that point is that it's easy to look at the gurus and go, well, they're doing it. Well, of course they're doing it because they have 700,000 followers. And so if you have that kind of volume, you can't make the average business owner has 1,500 followers. No one has a sense of who they are. Yeah. And we don't have the time to be a content creator all day and muck around on LinkedIn because they've got a business to run. Of course. Yeah.

It's just so important to spend time with the individual. That's kind of the big takeaway. No, I think that that was a great topic that we discussed. And I also think that people often look for shortcuts. Yeah. But just as we could hear that you've been on LinkedIn. for years. Seven years makes me like a grandad on LinkedIn,

isn't it? No, that's not what I meant. It's just trying to prove that it takes time. Actually, LinkedIn said that. They're like, you like some kind of grandad. I'm like, yeah, thanks. But at least plenty of experience. But you're right.

And the thing is, like, there are no shortcuts. There are no hacks. It's just doing it well. We can't just call it a hack because it's doing it well. That's like how to do it. And if there were shortcuts, they've been found. And so I just think it's, I mean, we can get better with AI,

and that really is helping a lot with a lot of like the superfluous work. But ultimately, this is a human sport, and so that won't change. And I know it makes me sound old. But this is as a techie guy, I really feel like we've got at one point dare to actually interact with people. Yep. And in case there might be still people who have any doubts, can you share? We actually discussed it before, but what's your following on LinkedIn,

just to give people an idea that you get something to actually say. Yeah, I feel fairly equipped to comment on this because I was making sales when I had a thousand followers and no one knew who I was. And the design was awful, Thomas. And like, you should have seen how bad the posts were. And there was no personal brand. It was just brute force that I was using. And I now have 100,000 followers.

And, like, it's still the same, you know. And I'm not about going viral because I'm not vain or insecure. And I'm quite happy with the fulfillment I get of my life without doing that. So I'm not salty. I'm not saying all this because I'm salty about not having loads of followers. I now have loads of followers. And I still feel the same. So ultimately, everyone knows I'm right.

But we all have to get to a point, but we finally admit to ourselves. that big fat vanity numbers are there as compensation, if they matter to us, that there is compensation for not doing the good stuff and not getting the real thing, which is the deals with customers. And yes, follow account helps. And of course, I'm incredibly flattered and grateful that people follow me at that volume. But it's a way of keeping score and it's part of a process. it is never or should never be the end goal.

And if it is the end goal just to have like a massive following, then we're misaligned. And I think the big thing people need to, because the average person listening to this won't have even 10,000 followers. And so what we need to remember is, for the average person, you're not going to better hold your breath

until you have tens of thousands of followers. In the meantime, you need to learn how to interact with people. And then a gift of doing things properly, is word gets around and people start following you. I've never, and I mean it, I've never tried to hack at follow account. Yeah.

Because it matters only, only if you are selling how to be a guru, influencer, or grow your following. If you're selling that, of course, you need a strong following. But like,

it's like if I'm selling how to do copywriting, I better have a lot of people reading my copy. Yeah, Other than that, focus on stuff that matters, which is customers get deals. That's what business is. Otherwise, we're basically getting a couple of deals here and there to pay for us to be a full-time content creator or influence in the making. And if that makes you genuinely happy, then brilliant.

But I bet it's not what people are here for. They're here. No one, you know, the average, if you look at my accelerator group, there's over 200 business leaders in there. And like, none of them are like, oh, I want to be a, I want to be famous. They just didn't care less. Like, I just want some money. I just want to customers. I just want to get on with my work and be and stay in my space of being good at what I do. So we should, I'm always careful to add this footnote of like, look, if you want genuinely to your core to be an influencer, then brilliant, go do it.

But that is not the play if you're a business leader because you don't have the hours to spare to grind comments and be on scrolling all day long. We should always take a look at ourselves. Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad we can hear it from the professional like you, Richard. Yeah. And just as we will be soon approaching the end,

just to be aware of the time, obviously we discussed some stuff before, but are there any other things that you enjoy doing in your free time. Playing with my children is wonderful. I'm really into that. And I'm still an introvert. It's interesting.

So I do a... We still don't believe you. So here's the manifestation of me as an introvert. I run in-person events as well, called Entrepreneur Business Live. I've been running them since 2018. Next month, we've got our 41st event in San Francisco. So I run them all over the world.

have done from Melbourne to Barcelona to Toronto, New York, LA, whatever. So it's really fun doing those and they're all for charity. The last one in November last year was like 100 plus people in London. We had loads of like loads of people attending. We had a lovely lineup of panelists and I was hosting this whole thing. But after something like that, I need a lie down man. Like I need the day off. I have to decompress. So I have you. you know, it's an interesting one. I teach every week in my groups, in the art of cell, in the accelerator, and you've got all of these people watching, and you can't just talk.

You have to perform, you know, or doing things like this. It's like, I do like to then decompress a load. So I love travel. I'm off to Spain in two weeks time. We've got a place in Alicante, so it'll be nice to be out there for a bit. But really, like, I'm getting a bit spiritual night in my age. And so like, go-go-in-the-mor in the morning and stretching and breath-worth. and I have an ice bath now and long rides and runs I really enjoy too.

So other than that, it's just trying to get my sleep, you know, that's the main thing. No, I understand you must have so much stuff to do and we are still waiting for those books. Yeah, I know. I'm not putting pressure on myself. I'm just joking. So we've discussed it obviously a lot already, but can you please sum up where people can find you, follow you and promote any of your services? Yeah, sure. So LinkedIn. You can find me as LinkedIn.com slash in slash Richard James Moore.

I am obviously, I've got my website as well. So the richardmore.com. But if you want to find out some more about the art of sell, which is my main community, you can do that on the website or on my profile. You can go through to that community page. And that's $100 a month. That's it. The idea is it's deliberately absurd.

cheap so that people are like, are you kidding? Like I get to hear from people from Louis Vuitton or people who work with Spotify and I do masterclasses as well. Yes, that's the point. So it's a really wonderful community and I love how people interact in it as well. But if any, as a thank you for people listening to this, if they've got this far, if they want to ask any questions, I'm more than happy to do that in the DMs. Just simply lead with, I heard you on Thomas's podcast. That'd be absolutely fine. Thank you because I cannot imitate home messages you must receive with so many followers. I appreciate it. We all get messages from people who have us on a list, but I do love it when someone has a message where they genuinely are asking a question.

And like if someone has decided to put their time into listening to this and found it compelling enough that they want to ask something, then the least I can do is give them some time back. because people did that for me when I was on the up to, and I'm happy to do that. That is really nice. And then the final question, if there is something that I should have asked you and did not or some final piece of advice or anything you would like to share, feel free to this.

I think it's been great. You've done a very broad set of question. I do think that the advice is the superpower, the real superpower is the interaction with the individuals. Like, dare to get in the messages, speak to people, have a call, like one of the best bits of advice I was ever told was who are you having coffee with this week? And it asks yourself, like, who am I meeting that's new this week? So every

week you should be meeting new people. That's where it all happens. The doors open and it's surprising how much more luck you get when you meet new people every day. So like don't try and get away from the front line. I know people don't want to so much, but like get in there because there's a lot going on. The opportunity is when you're meeting people, not when you're just speaking and running away. Yep, I think that's a perfect piece of advice to finish with. I want to say a huge thank you, Richard. I really appreciate it.

Your work. That you joined. I learned a lot and I really enjoyed your positivity. And as I said, the enthusiasm that you spoke about, I think we discussed. So thank you so much. I will keep following and keep supporting and keep doing the great work as you've been always doing. Thank you. Thanks to us.

I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to Produce by with Tom. Check out show notes for all the links and don't forget to like, subscribe and leave your feedback. Speak soon.