Produced By - Healing Through Curiosity: Mastering Your Nervous System | #74: Jonny Miller

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's called like the sixth sense. So in the same way, we have like sight hearing, taste. We also can sense what is happening inside. So things like hunger, could be, I need to use a bathroom, could be tiredness, emotional state, mood. Like everything that's happening for our, you know, internal landscape. And the more that we can go from that being, let's say like 32 pixel to like high definition, more clarity we have, that is basically interception. And so really like any skill, it's just practice.

Starting point is 00:00:28 You can do kind of body. scans is one way to do it to kind of ask yourself questions around like how is my posture how is my awareness how is my mood how is my breath how like what sensations am i noticing where i might be tension in my body in this moment all those kinds of things the more that you practice that like anything the more you just naturally develop this capacity before we dive into today's episode please hit that subscribe button your support helps us grow and inspire more people on their journeys thank you Hello, Jenny. Thank you for Jimenez today and welcome to the show.

Starting point is 00:01:04 It's great to be here, Thomas. So, Johnny, I always start with the same question, which is introduction, but this time I would try to start with something different. So can you tell us, how do you feel in this moment in three words? Right now I feel cold, spacious and... Intrigue. Can we expand on these words? Because I wasn't really expecting cold or spacious. Can you tell us more why?

Starting point is 00:01:50 Yeah, well, cold because it's turning winter here in Colorado and my hands and feet are just lacking. I thought that there would be some bigger meaning or something different. No, no, I get it. Just purely the temperature. and spacious yeah i i had a um like a morning meditation and tea sit this morning and so there's a quality of just spaciousness in my experience yeah and intrigued have you got any plans or goals or something that makes you to feel this way intrigued um no i usually i usually feel

Starting point is 00:02:32 intrigued at the beginning of conversations like this just to see where where it might go. It's just like always an interest and a curiosity, I guess. Yeah, that is something that I can relate to so. I like that. And as you said, you mentioned meditation. Is that something that should practice regularly? Yeah, it is. I would say I kind of go through phases where it gets more or less intense. right now I sit for maybe maybe 20 or 30 minutes in the morning with some tea and it's more of just a kind of open awareness practice just kind of tuning into my body

Starting point is 00:03:13 tuning into sensations but I've done many different types of meditation over the years this is just more of like a I guess it's like a kind of like house cleaning it's almost like a like a mental hygiene as well kind of starting the day from a place of relaxation yeah I tried meditation before as well, but for some reason I've never stick to it that. I don't know if I did it wrong, if I had wrong expectations or there was something else. So have you got any advice for someone like me, maybe what to focus on or what to do differently to stick with that?

Starting point is 00:03:50 Yeah, I mean, I think it's almost like saying like what type of training do you want to do, like physical training. There's so many different aspects that you can practice with meditation, everything from cultivating meta, which is like loving kindness, to cultivating presence, to kind of working with creating psychological distance between you and your thoughts and almost having that staciousness. So I think it really depends on what someone's goals are. but yeah i mean i mean i really like sam harris has a great app called waking up that many people have probably heard of he has a good 30 day series and then from there you can kind of choose

Starting point is 00:04:36 your own journey i think waking up is probably my favorite um app that that's that's focus on meditation and then also things like you know a 10-day retreat something like fastener um is also a good way of doing it like a deep dive and sometimes i think it helps to do a kind of intensive practice and then it's easier to keep practice going after after that intensive period. Yeah, some Harrisis app sounds like a good idea. I haven't really tried it before. So I may give it a try. Then for the people who don't know you, I know that you always dreaded this question. So I will try to say it instead of you and you can say if I say it correct or at anything that I missed. So it was your introduction. So Johnny Miller is the host of Curious Humans podcast and is the creator of

Starting point is 00:05:24 nervous system mastering. He's an expert in emotional resilience known for his TED talk, which is called GIFT of Grief and his work with high performance and leaders. He's originally from the UK, but currently he lives in Colorado. Is there something Johnny that I missed or something that you would point out? No, that's a pretty good summary. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I don't really like to say introductions either, so I completely understand you. Can we then generally start with your background because we are originally from the UK? So can we tell us briefly something about your childhood if you were a curious child? I guess you were.

Starting point is 00:06:03 And what was it like for you to growing up in the UK? Yeah, I, let's see, I was very into video games and adventures, I think, were the things that I was interested in. And I think I was very, I was like bored at school. didn't enjoy school very much. It felt like pointless to me kind of at the time. I just felt very uninspired and so I think I tried to feed my imagination through

Starting point is 00:06:33 reading fantasy, like the Wizard of Earth Sea was one of my favorite books playing Legend of Zelda and reading about like National Geographic Adventures so it was kind of way I think I mean I think it was escapism in a form but in also a healthy way.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Yeah. Was it with the school that you didn't find interesting what they were teaching or you were a child that it was hard for you to hold attention or something else I think both I mean honestly I think the ways that have so much to say about the schooling system but the idea that children should you know sit still at a desk for like nine hours a day and not move and be in their bodies and be outside is ludicrous um I think the way that a lot of the information is taught again it's like very kind of passive and just receptive and going through textbooks. So, yeah, and I just didn't feel connected or inspired by a lot of the material. It just felt like a series of hoops to jump through in order to pass exams,

Starting point is 00:07:37 which was then a vehicle to getting into a good university. And that didn't really interest me. So what was then the topic that you were interested in, such as what to pursue later on in your career? Yeah, so I, I was interested in, I studied philosophy at university. And I was really interested in that. I think I found that fascinating.

Starting point is 00:08:01 And I think it's because it connected to questions around, what does it mean to live a good life? I think that's, that really interested me. And there were questions around, you know, ethics and looking at, um, reading Nietzsche and Aristotle and the Greek philosophers. I found that fascinating. And I think that thread, you know, connected and stayed with me after university.

Starting point is 00:08:27 And I discovered initially like reading Alan Watts and people like that and some ramdhas and more Eastern traditions. And yeah, and I think I kind of followed that question into, let's say, experimenting with psychotechnologies. So whether that's breathwork, whether that's meditation, whether that's working with psychedelics and I view that as almost like a way of exploring in a first person sense exploring our inner landscape and exploring what does it mean to live a good life not in an abstract way in a kind of very like felt sense experiential way yeah and as you said you were interested in philosophy what was

Starting point is 00:09:12 the idea of your profession once you finish your education if you knew what you would like to do I only knew that I didn't want to get a job in the city, a banker or a lawyer or a consultant, which is what 80% of my friends were aiming for. Like typical 9 to 5. Typical 9 to 5. I'd spend some time in London. I'd met these people who were maybe 5 or 10 years down the line. And they seemed like, I mean, frankly, kind of like dead inside, just like not excited by their lives. It was so predictable.

Starting point is 00:09:47 it was very uninspiring and I was almost afraid that that was what I would end up doing. So I think it was more, I didn't know what I wanted, but I just knew what I didn't want. Yes, yes. So you continued exploring this area, but what was actually your profession? What did you do in this, you know, in this sphere? So I applied to a startup incubator in Chile in San Francisco. Tiago, cool startup Chile. And along with two friends, they gave us $40,000 to fly to Chile and to start a startup. So I kind of was, like, dove head first into the world of being an entrepreneur.

Starting point is 00:10:32 And what does it mean to build a business? And that was my work. How did you from London end up so far away in Chile? Well, the government said they would give us money to fly there. So you're like, Okay, we'll go. Why not? Like, it didn't, there was no downside. They didn't take equity. It was purely to create an entrepreneurial culture in, in Chile. A really amazing program. And so they incentivized entrepreneurs to fly there.

Starting point is 00:10:59 And is that how you built the company, MAPTIA or storytelling with your friends? Yeah, so it started out there, and then we eventually then apply to TechStars, which is another incubated program in, this was in Seattle, in the US. and a map two went three textiles at the time. Can you briefly tell us more about the company? Did it work in this area that you were interested in such as something connected to philosophy or the senses that you mentioned before? Yeah, so it was the first tagline we had was the most inspirational map in the world.

Starting point is 00:11:34 And the idea was to curate geotagged stories, visual stories, and to create this like inspiring map that like I'd been so impacted by travel before university and I deeply believe that if more people were inspired to see the world then they would also care about it more and they'd want to kind of conserve it and protect it and feel connected to it so we we curated stories of adventure stories of cultural impact working with like charity water and non-profits like that and then stories of kind of like culture. So indigenous tribes,

Starting point is 00:12:15 different ways of living, different ways of being in the world. Because I believed it was important to share that and to kind of inspire people to learn and care and maybe even see some of these places for themselves. It sounds like a fulfilling mission. Did you enjoy it working on? I very much enjoyed it.

Starting point is 00:12:35 I enjoyed, I have deep love and respect for my two co-founders. It was challenging to make money. That was kind of what we ran into because we were essentially a content platform. And we didn't want to run ads and banner ads and things. And we were a little bit too early before, you know, like crypto payments or things like that would have been a thing. So it was essentially challenging to make money in the long run. And the work itself that I was doing was less fulfilling as well. I loved the mission, but I was, you know, mostly doing like admin things and running the business and emailing photographers, which just was like, it was.

Starting point is 00:13:11 It was okay, but it wasn't my deep cooling. Yeah, this less exciting side of running a business doing all the administrative stuff. Exactly, exactly. Like, I don't know if you've seen Walter Mitty, but I felt like Walter Mitty, he was, he's like develops photos in for Life magazine of these like people having exciting adventures. And if I'm not mistaken, the company isn't around anymore. Is that the financials the reason why it stopped? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:40 So it unfortunately had to be taken down because the server costs were quite expensive. But I hope one day we could maybe bring it back to life and just pay for it to exist because I think it's quite a beautiful kind of repository to have online. Yeah. And then another point that I mentioned in our introduction was the TED Talk, quite a big thing that you did before. There was unfortunate event in your life. For people who don't know you, it was passing of your...

Starting point is 00:14:10 previous partner. Can you tell us briefly what happened, why that happened and tell us the story behind it? Yeah, sure. So this was a few years later after MAPTia. And I was engaged at the time to an amazing woman called Sophie. She had bipolar disorder she'd been diagnosed with. And when I was traveling in Portugal one weekend she had taken time of work and she kind of like titrated off her off the medications and she went back to work and she had an anxiety attack at work she was a junior doctor and she came home and ended up overdosing on her medication and taking her own life and that was a yeah just kind of like turned my life upside down in a way I had never been through anything that was like emotionally intense or challenging before, I would say.

Starting point is 00:15:12 I think I'd had a pretty easy life. And it very much, yeah, kind of brought me through this very intense period of grieving. And there were a lot of beauty and a lot of challenging aspects in that for me. But the TED talk that I gave was my, it was called the gift. gift of grief, I think was the title. And it was essentially sharing the beautiful aspects of the grieving process and what that opened up

Starting point is 00:15:45 for me. Do you still remember what was the feedback like? Of the talk? Mm-hmm. It was beautiful. I mean, the people who were their life said beautiful things. I think many people felt seen

Starting point is 00:16:02 in that as well. and others who were more stuck in their grief, I think, felt hopeful that it didn't have to be like that, you know, forever. Yeah, and I've received many, many messages from people who have, I think, been touched or moved or resonated with some of what I shared. And how did you find it, speaking about this experience publicly or even live to the audience during that talk? terrifying yeah it was terrifying and also very meaningful there's something about

Starting point is 00:16:42 I think this is true of most intense experiences where if you're able to share the story in a way after you've been through almost like like the hero's journey cycle I don't know if you're familiar with Joseph Campbell but yes this idea of returning to the village

Starting point is 00:16:58 great yeah yeah like returning to the village and that's kind of what it felt like. It was like sharing this very intense kind of two and a half, two, three year period. That changed me. And just getting to share what that was like was very scary and vulnerable, but also very meaningful. And obviously it's a terrible event that we cannot really imagine. So how did you deal with it after it happened or what helped you, you know,

Starting point is 00:17:30 to go to everything afterwards. In the immediate aftermath, do you mean? I mean, yeah, when it happened, like, let's say, days, weeks or even months. Yeah. I think, like, first and foremost, in the immediate aftermath, just being around close friends and family and being kind of held in community was essential. In the beginning, there's almost this, like, it's like too much to really process and so there's this this kind of shot it's almost like disbelief in a way and um yeah being around

Starting point is 00:18:10 other other people um and just giving myself spaciousness to to be with the sensations and to feel was was essential um i ended up going back to some of the places that were meaningful for both of us so the places that felt like they were kind of imbued with aspects of grief or aspects of our relationship or connection. That felt very important. And yeah, I say the most important thing was giving myself the space and time and kind of building the confidence up to allow myself to feel the impact of the loss. And it felt like increasing waves of grief and the more that I was able to be with that

Starting point is 00:18:57 and like allow it to flow through me, the more it did. And the less I resisted it. guess is that also something that would recommend to people who experience something like that as well in their lives yes absolutely i think uh i mean i mean if or if there are like any better ways how to you know of course i cannot imagine what was it like but how to deal with such experience I mean, I think the best way is to, for the degree that you can to give yourself space and, and like, you know, take time off work if that's available, surround yourself with caring people and support. And kind of with that support, allow the intelligence of the grief to kind of run. course. And I think that when like the idea of the five stages of grief, those are in my opinion

Starting point is 00:20:05 five different ways in which we resist feeling grief itself, whether it's like denial or bargaining or anger. I think it's just the ways in which we resist the intensity of the grief. And so I, I, there was a really beautiful talk by Liz Gilbert who came out some years later, but she had this, this phrase of like, of like, I am willing. And having that as like a background mantra was, was very helpful for me. Like I am willing to feel. I'm willing to allow this, let this in. And this whole experience and what you went through afterwards is that what led you to start in your nervous system, master it? Yeah, absolutely. It opened me up to my like emotional landscape that I think I'd been very cut off from

Starting point is 00:20:58 and I'd been very heady, I would say up until then. So yeah, it opens just really like an exploring meditation and breathwork in particular. I realized how much more there was to explore there

Starting point is 00:21:17 and how I felt like a beginner in that part in a way. So with nervous system master, can you introduce it to do this? what's the framework what's the you know the boot camp what are the goals and who is it for yes it is a five-week course it's for is it for anyone who is interested in exploring their own in a landscape in a in a more detailed way I mean a lot of people join because they struggle with anxiety or burnout or some chronic health challenges

Starting point is 00:21:56 or maybe their parents and they want to share these tools with their kids. But ultimately it's about learning the levers in our physiology to consciously shift our state, either up shift or downshift, to be more attuned to our internal sensations, and ultimately to welcome the full spectrum of emotions as they move through. Grief being one example. Yeah. Is there any special? specific target clients that you work with or it can be pretty much anyone because I know for

Starting point is 00:22:32 example you worked with people from some big companies and successful entrepreneurs so is it focused on anyone and it can be everyone initially it was people in tech and but I think that's expanded to a much much broader audience yeah I think you know people in positions of leadership I think maybe have more motivation to learn these skills because they are, their state directly impacts the people that report to them and the rest of the team or company. But ultimately, I believe that almost everyone can be served with these practices in some capacity. And can you spot any recurring themes or features of the people who go through this boot camp? In what sense?

Starting point is 00:23:22 such as for example was there specific reasoning or if they experienced something in their life and that's the reason why they join sure yeah I mean often they go through some kind of challenge or hardship can be burnout, can be

Starting point is 00:23:41 health challenge basically where they come up against their nervous system capacity and they realize that they need to upskill in that area it's often a big reason relationship conflicts can be another one. I think that's an area where nervous system capacity is very, is essential. Let's see what other themes.

Starting point is 00:24:04 Yeah, we're kind of, we're just opening up a new cohort right now. So there's a lot of people coming through and I'm reading their introductions and their motivations for joining. Yeah, and a lot of, you know, people like wanting to increase their HRA variability, wanting to feel more resilient to stress to be able to downshift in the, evening after a stressful day at work without relying on alcohol or weed, things like that. Lots of reasons. Yeah, it sounds like something that pretty much everyone experiences. As you mentioned, for example, stress from work or trying to wind down the end of the day.

Starting point is 00:24:39 So I believe that it will be beneficial almost for everyone. I hope so, yeah. And by the way, it's just a side note that the website is really beautiful. for so for thank you have a look it's really well done yeah it's it's new we released that a few weeks ago and there is also people can sign up for short email course if I'm not mistaken so that is something I would recommend to people as well so can you say what do people receive if they sign up yeah so there's two things they're both on the website which is nsmastery.com there is a self-assessment

Starting point is 00:25:18 which allows people to get a sense for the baseline of the nervous system capacity. And then I share, I think there's five specific practices that are personalized to your score that you can experiment with in your data life. And I think that's what I really encourage is like the spirit of experimentation and wanting people to try these things for themselves and to see if they resonate. And then the email course is five to thrive, which is also on the website. And that's more of an educational series of like learning interception, learning tools for

Starting point is 00:25:50 self-regulation and learning non-sleep deep rest is a really useful practice that I think is an sDR right nsdr exactly yeah I find that really helpful and then a kind of intro to emotional fluidity as well and and how to practice that so very helpful too that is for free to people so give it a try it sounds great that you provide a lot of useful resources for free because another one that I was about to mention is your emotional resilience wiki where people can find lots of helpful information and even can contribute. So can you tell us more about this resource? What are its goals and what can people find there? Yeah, I made this a while ago. It was essentially geared towards mostly founders and entrepreneurs and leaders who were experiencing burnout or afraid of burnout. And it's some questions

Starting point is 00:26:48 to ask some tools that can be used, both kind of mindset-based and physical, and then some resources and directories for going deeper as well. Yeah. And as you mentioned, the burnout, I would like to stick with this for a bit because I spoke with some people, whether it's on the podcast or even online, for example, on LinkedIn, because I'm quite, or I try to be active there. and other people discuss burnout there as well. So I assume that you've experienced it as well, if I'm not mistaken,

Starting point is 00:27:25 or have you or have you not? Yeah, I did in my time running a startup. So can you try to point out, let's say a few points, how to try to prevent it, if it happens, how to try to deal with it, and maybe how to spot any signs that it's coming? Yeah, so, um, but. Burnout, I would say the number one skill is actually interception, which is being able to track sense and feel your kind of internal landscape and listen to the signals that your body is giving you. I think often people don't realize they're burnt out until like much, much, much further into the, or they don't even realize they're stressed until they hit burn out.

Starting point is 00:28:12 And so it's like tracking the signs of stress in your body and listening to them essentially. And many people, it'll take like a health crisis or like some crazy event for them to realize, oh shit, I'm actually really burnt out. And so noticing the kind of the leading signals, maybe it's like feeling exhausted, maybe it's poor sleep, maybe it's health challenges, physical tension, it's like paying attention to that and addressing that early and not waiting for the dump truck of burnout to hit. I think that's like the number one thing is like preventative. If you realize that you are burnt out, rest is probably the first thing,

Starting point is 00:28:56 just like deep rest and removing as many obligations as you can. And then, yeah, often there's also emotions that get repressed or overrided during the the burnout phase and so there's likely a buildup of emotional debt i call it to kind of go through and to and to fuel through um that's often part of the journey and with all your knowledge now do you still see signs that burnout is coming for you or do you manage to you know be in such a state that it doesn't really happen or it doesn't come it hasn't happened yet yeah i um i think i'm i'm I'm more sensitive, I would say my system's more sensitive. So if I start to feel, I start to notice myself pushing a bit too hard,

Starting point is 00:29:44 then I'll generally kind of take the foot off the gas paddle and step back. And like, you know, this weekend we're going camping. And yeah, I think I'm definitely much more tuned. And I, yeah, I would be surprised if I burnt out. But we'll see. Yeah, yeah. Are you looking to elevate your online presents? Check out Trailblazed, our digital marketing agency.

Starting point is 00:30:12 Whether it's standing out on social media, crafting a stunning new website or developing impact visuals, Trailblaest has got your back. Visit Trailblaest.digital and reach your online potentials a day. And another term that you mentioned before is interception, which I'm not going to like to Google before what it means, because I feel like I've never heard the term. But can you share maybe some techniques

Starting point is 00:30:37 how to enhance awareness of interception? And also, if you can one more time, maybe say what it means for people who didn't catch it before. Yeah, yeah. So it basically means like, it's called like the sixth sense. So in the same way, we have like sight hearing,

Starting point is 00:30:55 taste. We also can sense what is happening inside. So things like hunger. Could be, I need to use. a bathroom, could be tiredness, emotional state, mood, like everything that's happening for our, in our internal landscape. And the more that we can go from that being, let's say, like, 32 pixel to like high definition, more clarity we have, that is basically interception. And so really like any skill, it's just practice. You can, um, doing kind of body scans is one way

Starting point is 00:31:28 to do it to kind of ask yourself questions around like, how is my posture? How, how is my awareness how is my how is my mood how is my breath how like what sensations am i noticing where where might be tension in my body in this moment um all those kinds all those kinds of things and the more the more that you practice that like anything the more you just naturally develop this capacity is that not something that you practice regularly or you don't really have to because maybe it's yeah in the beginning it was intentional i think it just happens more naturally now and um things like nsdr practice also has an element of that um i find that for me the practice is more coming back to a state of rest and relaxation and from that

Starting point is 00:32:16 relaxation i'm just naturally more aware and sensitive to what's what's going on as you mentioned now nsdr is if i'm not mistaken it's also called yogonidra isn't it because i know the term from Andrew Huberman. I've tried it before. So for the people who've never heard this term, can you briefly explain what it is and what are its benefits? Yes. So yoga nidra is a wonderful practice.

Starting point is 00:32:45 It's a guided body scan, essentially. It can take anywhere from 10 minutes up to like 45 minutes to an hour. And as you, there's various, there's different variations, but the ones that I like involve initially progressive. of muscle relaxation with the breath, which helps the kind of really relaxing ground. And then kind of guided body scan bringing presence and awareness of different body parts. And it creates what's known as a hypnagogic state, which is this space between sleeping and sleeping and waking.

Starting point is 00:33:16 So the body feels like it's asleep, but you're aware. You're not dreaming or anything. Sometimes you fall asleep, but that's fine. And it's very rejuvenating. It's, you kind of, 15, 20 minutes later, you wake up and you're, you're, you're, you feel revitalized, you feel nourished, you feel alert, focused, and it doesn't take very long. Is that also something that you practice regularly? I try to, yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:41 Ideally, two or three times a week. I tried it before as well, but again, for some reason, I haven't stick with it, so I hope that this episode will be a good reason, not to have any excuses and come back to it. Great, yeah, yeah, highly recommend it. another topic that you mentioned before was breathwork so outside what we just discussed when whether it's meditation or nsDR do you do any other breathwork techniques or do you focus on it you know in any other different ways yeah um so there's different types of many types of breathwork i i really like um i mean two practices are kind of my go-toes one is humming which is a form of breathwork in a way.

Starting point is 00:34:31 And the other is something like 4-48 breathing or alternate notter breathing, which it helps with downshifting. And there's also breathwork journeys, which are more like some music. They might take from, you know, an hour to an hour and a half long. And those are more, it's a very different category. That's very good for kind of processing unexpressed emotions, I would say. So it kind of depends on what the goals are, but the breath is very powerful.

Starting point is 00:35:02 There's lots that can be done with breath. Yeah. I would be curious to ask you what do you do or what technique or something you use when you feel stress. I acknowledge the stress. I think that's the first thing. It's like actually maybe even saying it out loud. I would say I like to either go outside in the sunshine. and like put put my feet in the ground take some breaths some sighs can can feel really good it's like

Starting point is 00:35:33 just like really let the tension go because stress usually comes with tension in the body and so i try and get into my body get into my senses and then allow that tension to just be released um you know something as simple as like sometimes i'll go into my bedroom and just put my literally put my feet up and kind of take some big breath into my um into the back of my chest and just with like with each kind of big breath, like hold it and then just like let it go in a big exhale. Sometimes sauna cold plunge rounds can be really, really good as well. Sometimes, you know, connection with my wife or a puppy. Really the main thing is just like noticing and acknowledging.

Starting point is 00:36:19 And from there it's almost like obvious. And everyone has their own preferences. This is going to sound probably like a silly question, but do you still experience of course you probably experience stress but a lot or to what extent you know because i would assume that maybe you have some techniques or ways how to prevent it so what is it like for you yeah i would say um i probably notice it most when i travel like we went to new york recently and um just going through you know busy international airports um is inherently stress inducing I try and I mean I really like noise cancelling headphones for the for the busy airports to kind of minimize the stimuli and the wet wear wearing like orange tinted glasses for the terrible overhead lighting.

Starting point is 00:37:10 Yeah. It can be really helpful. But yeah, I think I notice it most when I travel and there's that kind of disruption to my my normal rhythm, a lot of sitting down, a lot of maybe poor air quality. I think travel is like an inherently stressed and also the time change is stressful on the body. as well. So I think just knowing that it is it takes a toll on the body when you travel and allowing

Starting point is 00:37:34 recovery time afterwards I think is important. Yeah and of course the overall experience that something may go wrong. Of course you hope for the best but you don't want to... Totally, yeah, we almost missed our flight on the way back here and on the way back and we were like running through the airport

Starting point is 00:37:50 and we made it like one did that happen? Because we we stopped off at a cafe and we spent too long there. And then the traffic was really bad. I experienced it once as well when I was waiting on a different gate and I noticed too late so I can totally relate to that. I don't want to experience it again.

Starting point is 00:38:12 Yeah, yeah. Then the next topic that I'm of course very excited to discuss is your podcasting experience. Your podcast, which is called Curious Humans, which, by the way, is a great title. I like it as well. So, Jenny, what made you to start a podcast? I think, I mean, maybe similar to you, but I was looking for mentorship in my life,

Starting point is 00:38:34 and it felt like an excuse to have interesting conversations with people that I respected and learned from them. And that turned out to be true. And I had a lot of questions that I thought there were other people who had answers to. And yeah, that was definitely the main reason. I think that continues to be the reason. And you started quite a while ago. You spoke with some impressive guests, just to name a few,

Starting point is 00:39:00 Derek Sivers, Kevin Kelly, recently Ali Abdal, some amazing names. Do you have any dream guests or some people that you would like to bring home? Angie Heberman would be fun at some point. I can imagine to be amazing conversation. Yeah, he's got an e-book coming out, so I'm going to reach out and see if he's open to that. someone like Elizabeth Gilbert, I think, would be really interesting.

Starting point is 00:39:31 I've really enjoyed her conversations with Good Life Project and Tim Ferriss and people like that. Let's see. There's a guy called Christopher Bash, who I'd love to interview on the podcast, who did 72 high-d-d journeys and had just very interesting stories to share from that. I think that would be a fascinating conversation. yeah there's a fair few we'll see yeah and i feel like that before or when i discovered you there were more episodes and it feels like then then you had a break and recently you started releasing again if i'm not mistaken more frequent episodes than before so is there a reason that you

Starting point is 00:40:21 had a break is that you were working or something else or you needed a break or something else Yeah, I think I just naturally go through creative cycles. I think there's times when I get inspired and I want to be more outward facing in that way. And there's other times where I just like to disconnect from technology and not have too much on. Particularly with the cohorts that I teach, there's kind of like two big busy phases. Like I'm in one right now. And then there's another one in spring. And then in between, I just like to disconnect more and prioritize connecting the

Starting point is 00:40:56 people and being offline. It was one of my questions. How do you manage time management? Because of all the projects that you worked on, the free stuff that you provide, nervous system mastery, podcast, content creation, how do you manage everything?

Starting point is 00:41:14 I mean, I'm not the best at it. I think I typically, I don't really use deadlines that much. So I just kind of work on stuff when I feel inspired to work on it. or if I recently I I traveled a fair bit over the summer

Starting point is 00:41:30 and I had some great conversations and met some new people and I was like, oh, I'd love to have like a podcast with you. Let's just like schedule a podcast. And that happened pretty frequently. So I ended up having a lot of episodes. And there's I think four or five more

Starting point is 00:41:43 yet to be released that are being edited right now. And yeah, I mean, I think it's something that I would like to be more discerning about what I say yes to because I get excited quite easily by projects and there is limited time and capacity right now

Starting point is 00:42:01 nervous system mastery is my main project i would say um i'm also doing an app called state shift that's sharing nsDR and other practices like that but um yeah i think i just i like to work on where my what feels most alive or what feels most exciting and so far that's been working. As you just mentioned the app, do you know when is it going to be released? It is in App Store submission right now. We're waiting for Apple to approve it. Wow, it's excited. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I know you said NSDR, but do you want to promote the app a bit more? Tell us, you know, tease us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. So it's, um, initially the idea was an easy way for students to access some of the nervous system tools.

Starting point is 00:42:55 So things like the breathing, the humming, the NSDR, the upshifting, like breath of fire. And then as we explored it more, I realized that it could be a kind of standalone product. And then these just having kind of very easy access to some of these tools, which vary from like two minutes to five minutes, ten minutes, 20 minutes, depending on how much time you have. Yeah, I think that they can have such an impact in a very short space of time. They kind of what's known as bottom up practices as opposed to top down. And there's so many people these days who are you struggle with anxiety or ADHD as well. It can really help with ADHD symptoms. And so the idea was to share these tools in an accessible way and see what happens.

Starting point is 00:43:45 I mean, it's an experiment. I don't know if it will resonate, but I hope it will. We'll see. I think based on what you said, there's no doubt that I think people are facing anxiety more than before, especially in today's digital work. So I think, although I hope it will be the opposite, but I think that in the future it may be even worse. So I guess that there will be a market for that. And obviously, you've done your research, but also before we discussed some other similar apps, such as the one from Sam Harris. So what makes your app different from the existing apps?

Starting point is 00:44:18 or why should people use yours instead of the other ones? Well, so Sam Harris's app is around meditation and I think that I like the distinction between top down versus bottom up. Meditation is top down. It's like working with the mind. Bottom up is working with the body. And I don't think there are many tools out there right now

Starting point is 00:44:37 which focus on the bottom up approach. And so that was the main thesis. There's also an AI component where we've trained a kind of a voice model on my voice and my wife's voice so you can personalize some of the recordings based on your name and your intention and other aspects as well well it sounds pretty cool very excited and of course need to ask these questions because excited about podcasting but since you've got experience years of experience many episodes raised big people spoke with so for the people who want to start their podcast

Starting point is 00:45:14 Have you got any advice how to start what to focus on? Maybe what would you do differently who are starting again? I think the most important thing is that you're just excited to have the conversations. I think it's very challenging to grow podcast and also to make money from podcasts. So if you're doing it to make money, I would consider something else, frankly. I can agree. Yeah. Do it because you enjoy it, not to get rich.

Starting point is 00:45:48 I would really focus on the intrinsic motivation. And if you end up doing 100, 200 episodes, then for sure you can start to kind of get sponsorship and work with brands and things like that. But my main advice would be keep it simple in the beginning, make it fun, make it enjoyable for the guests. And yeah, commit to like 10 episodes in the beginning. Just like try 10 episodes, have fun with it, see what happens and then reflect on do you enjoy it if you enjoy it? if you enjoy it, keep doing more. If not, I don't know. I think that's that simple.

Starting point is 00:46:23 Have you got any specific plans with the podcast? Of course, to get your dream guests, but is there maybe something different? Hmm. It's a good question. I'm not sure. I think, well, I've started to view the podcast as also a means of spreading the word about nervous system mastery

Starting point is 00:46:47 in the course I teach. So I think focusing more around nervous system adjacent practices and guests will be part of it. Yeah, I think it's something of a passion project for me. We've had maybe, I think it's like 120,000 downloads, something like that. So not like fairly significant, but at the same time, you know, compared to the big podcast, it's like nothing. So, yeah, I just probably keep doing more of the same, I think, you know.

Starting point is 00:47:19 And another great great. thing that I would like to point out is that you started creating some amazing content for YouTube which if I'm not mistaken you haven't done before and I mentioned it not only to promote the value it provides such as anything about nervous system mastery and other info you provide but also amazing production quality which I really enjoyed so what made you to suddenly you know start producing these videos or why haven't you started earlier good questions so I think that I was excited by the idea of creating something that was very high quality and something that would like be somewhat timeless a lot of the content I write especially on

Starting point is 00:48:08 Twitter feels like it's gone two days later and so I like the idea of putting in a lot of effort up front to create a series of videos which would be increasingly valuable over time I think YouTube if done well can be a kind of appreciating asset for people. And I really, I kind of had this idea of comparing nervous system mastery to being like a video game. And that metaphor was really fun for me to play with. And so. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:39 I was sorry. To interrupt, I was about to mention it felt like a GTA, Granta author. Yeah, yeah. You got a character and other elements around it. I think was a beautiful and really one way. Like Grand Theft also. more regulated and with less murdering people. Yeah, and I met this guy, Mark,

Starting point is 00:48:57 who was a fantastic YouTube general manager. So he really took care of a lot of the post-production, the animation, the sound design, some of the script writing. And it was really fun. And I think I'll keep doing it. It was definitely, it's a lot of work. It's surprisingly kind of heavy lifts to do

Starting point is 00:49:16 high production quality YouTube videos in that way. there's just so many separate skills that you have to learn and focus on. But I really enjoyed it. I'm really proud of the videos that came out of that. And I like the idea of sharing these concepts in a way that is also fun and engaging. Because I haven't seen any other YouTube channels that talk about nervous and work in a way that is also kind of high production quality. So that's kind of the idea with the channel. I agree. That's why it stood out for me as well, because it may not be as exciting topic, maybe for some people.

Starting point is 00:49:59 But I can definitely say with this video, it looks beautiful. As you said, it looks like a game, so it makes it just fun to watch. It's a good quality. You learn something new. So my next question was actually if you plan to continue, so I'm happy that you said that you've got some plans with that and that you will probably continue. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's definitely expensive as well.

Starting point is 00:50:20 You know, it takes budget and time and resources. But I think it's worth it. I kind of want to invest in probably another five and see, see what happened. And what was the feedback like from? Great. People loved it. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:35 I think, I mean, I think it was seen by like 100,000 people on Twitter. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, feedback was great. And this will be finishing soon. I know that I asked you about your goals. or aspirations with the podcast with YouTube. But when it comes to nervous system mastery,

Starting point is 00:50:54 have you also got any specific goals or masters or, you know, any future plans? Yeah, I mean, I have some, I think, increasingly big visions for it. We've had a thousand students go through now, so it's kind of getting to a good size. But I'm curious about how to bring, how to kind of take this work into organizations, working with leaders, working with teams. I think that's interesting. I'm excited for the app as well. I think that could be kind of both a good source of,

Starting point is 00:51:27 for sure, interest in the course, as well as just a business in and of itself. And yeah, I'm also exploring, there's a research project, which is maybe too much detail to go into now, but I'm excited to kind of help to spearhead some research and potentially a kind of medical scanning device that would be very related to the nervous system work as well oh it sounds great i'm glad to hear that you continue exploring

Starting point is 00:51:58 a building it probably says something that you are still a curious person yeah i think i think that's the main thing i think i want to keep following that curiosity and not if i was doing the same thing over and over again it would become boring yeah i totally agree and we of course discussed everything that you work on and what are your hobbies what is it that helps you to switch off that you like to do in your free time if you've got any free time left yeah well i love i love climbing here in boulder has been wonderful like rock climbing outdoors and um but i've been a surfer all of my life and i'm we're actually moving back to california or moving to california in a few weeks time so i'm really excited to be back in the ocean and just surfing and foil boarding is what i plan to spend

Starting point is 00:52:43 a lot of my time doing. And can you name, I assume, maybe that you are also interested in personal development. Do you read any books that you would recommend? And if not from personal development, any other books that you would recommend? And that's a big category. I love Dave. Something that comes quickly to your mind. Yeah, I think David White, the Three Marriages, is a fantastic book that I've read many times.

Starting point is 00:53:15 also his book Consolations Basically anything by David White I'd recommend The Extended Mind I've just seen by Annie Murphy Poole is more based on neuroscience But I think I find that very interesting as well What else comes to mind Oh the great work of your life

Starting point is 00:53:35 By Stephen Cope I think is a good book And related to that The Pathless Path would probably be A recommendation for people who are looking to find more meaningful work and maybe break out from the kind of nine to five treadmill. It's from Paul Miller.

Starting point is 00:53:53 Paul Miller, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I feel like I haven't read the previous one, but I ran very much one. I can recommend it as well. Those were great tips. Yeah, and he has a new book called Good Work, which is about reclaiming ambition. Oh, wow, nice. Excited for that one.

Starting point is 00:54:08 And also, what about podcast inspirations? What podcasts do you listen to? Oh gosh, I listen to quite a few. I love modern wisdom with Chris is great. By the way, podcasts were Johnny was as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had a conversation recently. It was really fun, fun for me.

Starting point is 00:54:29 I love Huberman Labs I still listen to. You know, this is the usual Lex Friedman. And there's a podcast called The Emerald. It's a bit, I say it's a bit like out there. you know, maybe quite far on like the Wu spectrum, but I think it's very well done. It's more like an art project. It's a great podcast.

Starting point is 00:54:49 Good Life project with Jonathan Fields. It's fantastic. Yeah, those are probably the main ones. Yeah. I think then you can slowly, Johnny, wrap it up, but we discussed everything, but where can people find you,

Starting point is 00:55:02 where can people follow you, and even to sum up all the work that you've done, everything that you work with. Great, yeah, yeah, thanks Thomas. nervous system mastery or nsmashtree.com is the main website that has the self-assessment, has the cohort-based course and the free email course if people want to check that out. And then on the podcast is Curious Humans, which is on Spotify, etc. All their podcast apps.

Starting point is 00:55:28 And then I'm pretty active on Twitter if people are or X, I guess it's called these days. And Johnny J-O-N-N-Y-M-1-L-E-R is my handle. feel free to say hi there and yeah that's pretty much it you've also got a lovely website simple jonymer.com that links to everything i made that a long time ago i hope it might have to update it after this so yeah we'll see but i like the design that you've got across your socials across your design not design but any links that i find so that is something that i would point out as well thank you and then maybe to finish up is there any final message something that i should have asked you and didn't ask you or something that you would like to share before we wrap it up.

Starting point is 00:56:15 No, I just say for listeners, yeah, I'd say like design an experiment for yourself. Like if anything resonates in this conversation, try and frame it as an experiment, something you can try, test out for yourself, then reflect and just keep experimenting through life. I think it's one of the fastest ways to grow and learn and also one of the most fun ways.

Starting point is 00:56:39 That would be my parting words. I like it. I can only agree with you and Jenny. I want to say a big thank you. As someone who's been following you, listening to your podcast, watching YouTube, was a great pleasure to welcome you and have a chat with you.

Starting point is 00:56:54 Wish you all the best. I will share all the links, everything that we discussed. We'll continue following, supporting and excited to download your app. So thank you, Jenny. Appreciate that, Thomas. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:57:06 Thanks for listening to Produce Bye with Thomas. Check out show notes for all the links and don't forget to like, subscribe and leave your feedback. Speak soon.

Produced By - Healing Through Curiosity: Mastering Your Nervous System | #74: Jonny Miller

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