Produced By - No Stopping This VFX Artist: Sicily, London, Sydney - Always Creating | #51: Giorgio Pennisi

Starting point is 00:00:01 Hello and welcome to Produced Buy. Just quickly before we begin, if we enjoy the show, please consider supporting it by joining our Patreon. You can choose from a list of memberships and we'll receive some exciting rewards. Thank you and back to the episode. Hello, Georgio, thank you for Janeath today and welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me. So, Georgia, can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, so I'm Georgio Benici.

Starting point is 00:00:30 I'm a feature technical director, and I've been in the visual effects industry since 2017, and yeah, I'm currently based in Sydney, but I've been most of my life, working life. I've been working in London for eight years. So can we start with your background, where you come from? What is it like growing up? Yeah, I'm Italian, specifically from Sicily, from Sicily, from a lot. small town called Trapani. So I basically grew up in a very small town, but in my family, there's always been, you know, sort of an artistic interest. Both my granddad's were into art. One of them, I never managed to met him, but he was a very good

Starting point is 00:01:25 I think the translation would be in the 70s. And he was very skilled in drawing cartoons. And he, I never managed to met him, like I said, but he transferred that fashion to my mom. And then she did the same to me. And then my other granddad was also like a hobbyist painter and sculptor. And, you know, so I grew up in his house, surrounded by his artistry and his interest in art in general.

Starting point is 00:01:59 So since I was a kid, I was always surrounded by, you know, art. And at least I was drawn to be curious about it, for sure. And I think around age, eight or nine, because I was really into drawing since I was a little kid, like I said, my mom bought for me a magazine. There was like an introduction in how to make comic books. And it was made by Disney, Italy,

Starting point is 00:02:35 which in Italy, people probably don't know this, but there is a very big comic book production. Specifically, we have like a weekly magazine. It's called Topolino, which means Mickey Mouse in Italian. and every kid in Italy reads it, like literally everyone. And so they made this magazine where they will teach you how to, and this will come out weekly. They teach you how they make the stories,

Starting point is 00:03:00 they draw the characters, how to become both a storyteller and an illustrator. And so she saw that I like to draw, and so she felt that this was a nice way to, you know, feed into my curiosity. And I think that really had a strong impact of me. Because then at that point I decided I want to be a comic book artist. So in Italy, after middle school, which ends at around age 13,

Starting point is 00:03:34 you go into what I would describe as high school, like from 14 to 19, right before uni. And basically, you can decide what type of high school you want to attend. And there's like classical studies, you can do scientific studies. And because of the passion I had for drawing and in fact I wanted to become a comic book artist, I thought I wanted to go with artistic studies. So I studied in a lyceo Artistical, which is the artistic high school we have in my hometown. that during that time the first two years you get like a general understanding of art and you do history of art

Starting point is 00:04:23 and you know just art in general and then the last three years you actually get to choose like a more specific path and in my school you could choose between graphic design architecture and more sort of general painting sculpting and during those first two years I was introduced to the concept of architecture, and something really struck me about it. So I went from wanting to be a comic book artist to being very drawn into this thing that was architecture. I think retrospectively, what I was really struck by

Starting point is 00:05:06 is the fact that architecture meant being able to having good skills on both the artistic level but also the technical level. It was just something that interested me in some now that I didn't expect it was going to as well. So the last three years I studied architecture and once again, I loved

Starting point is 00:05:29 architecture and I like to believe that in a parallel universe I'm an architect where I've studied architecture at least because I think it's a great mean of art. But, you know, while studying architecture, you know, we were supposed to do everything in the traditional way. So with paper and pencil and pen, because that's how our teachers wanted us to first learn the, you know, the roots, the fundamentals of the architecture. But on the sides, completely unprompted, I would, you know, do the 3D part of it as well. So they did give us a little bit of a rudimentary sort of introduction to AutoCAD

Starting point is 00:06:13 and all the 3D software for architecture specifically. But I did more research and I started looking into proper modeling and rendering. And as I was doing that, I sort of, I ended up being more interested into the process of making the model and making it look nice, rather than the process of thinking of the project that I was trying to build, whatever, the museum, the church, the house, whatever was the assignment, I was more interested into the modeling part at some point. I realized I would spend nights basically trying to make it look nice and appealing.

Starting point is 00:06:55 And sometimes being able to model it in 3D would actually give me ways to re-explore the original design. and improve it as well. So since I was a kid, you know, like every kid of the 90s, early 2000s, I grew up with the Disney cartoons and especially the Pixar once had a very big impact on my childhood.

Starting point is 00:07:23 And I think at some point I started to be curious on how they actually make these movies, 3D ones specifically. So all these things, you know, all these influences, all these things I was drawn to, sort of came in together

Starting point is 00:07:39 and kind of showed me a path to follow in a way. I remember as a kid, one of the first movies I saw at the theater was Nemo. And then I got, I think my parents got me, I don't know if it was the VHS or the DVD, but it had the special contents. And there was a documentary, I don't know if you've ever seen it,

Starting point is 00:08:01 But there's a documentary in the special contents for Nemo where they show how Pixar developed the technology to make it happen. You know, I think they went to Australia and they went scuba diving and they studied out water looking to the cameras. It's incredible. At some point they made it so realistic that they had to dial it back because it was looking too realistic and needed to be a more continuation of it. And, you know, I remember I watched that, this special content, I must have watched it. Maybe not as many times as the movie, but, you know, close to. I watched so many, because I was, to me, it just looked like magic. You know, there were like artists and scientists at the same time.

Starting point is 00:08:46 It was incredible. So as, you know, when I grew up and I got interested into 3D modeling, I realized, you know, maybe I, because these things look very far away from me, very unreachable, you know, someone in a very far away town in America is incredible things. I'm in a small town in Sicily, what do I know, you know? But, you know, with internet and the fact that I was actually starting to make models and I could start to see what's behind a rendered picture, oh, that's, you know, I wouldn't make it and be like, oh, that makes sense, so you can do it this way. I started thinking, you know, how do you make a character then?

Starting point is 00:09:27 Because, you know, I've made this nice architectures and there are nice still pictures, but how do you make a character? How do you make it move, etc. So at that point, I was in my last year in high school. And so I went from being sold and studying architecture to finding any possible way to study how to make 3D animation or visual effects. Yeah, that was my journey towards getting interested into visual effects specifically. I like the progression from different stages of creative industries,

Starting point is 00:10:00 from drawing to architecture, and now we are with VFX. And as you mentioned, with Finding Nemo, I haven't seen the special one for Nemo, but I read quite a lot behind Pixar's process, that, as you said, for example, they go to aquariums or to the zoo to see how animals behave and to be able to replicate it. even better. So it's something I will have a look at with the Nemo. And although Nemo was released quite a while ago, I still think it's a beautiful and amazing film. So that was a great thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. These movies from, you know,

Starting point is 00:10:38 early Pixar, I think they are a masterpiece. You know, they really, they really age well. And, you know, animators have always, I've always worked with references. So it's not uncommon for studios. to bring, at least he did, maybe not so much nowadays. So in the past, it wasn't uncommon for studios to actually bring people, I don't know, to in zoos, to watch animals move and then try to replicate them into D or whatever. But what struck me with Nemo is that they were trying to understand the technical aspects of photography, underwater photography specifically, how the light works, how it hits the characters. and that technical part

Starting point is 00:11:22 that then ties into the artistic endeavor making a movie like that, it really struck me as a kid. So it's sort of like all connected during my journey to discovering my passion towards this field. I think it's something that always really struck me,

Starting point is 00:11:43 but I never thought I could actually work in this field. It felt really far and unreachable. Because obviously we don't have a strong animation industry in Italy and so it just doesn't feel like something that you can easily achieve or study you know to yeah from from my point of view at the time it didn't feel like so at this yeah i guess it's a great example that it's uh you know your wildest dreams can become a reality yes we'll find out soon about some exciting projects that you worked on but can you tell us what are your next steps when you found out that you were interested in

Starting point is 00:12:19 this so did you continue studying or learn it by yourself so the first thing I tried to do was you know finding places where they actually teach the effects and I tried to find places in Italy which there are a couple of institutions that each visual effects but they were very expensive at least they're expensive for what my family could afford that come from a very humble family and so at some point By chance, I had a friend who had a friend who studied in the UK. And totally by chance, he told me that he could study there because, you know, at the time it was before Brexit. So Europeans could access the loan for studying in the UK.

Starting point is 00:13:09 So you could go and study and then instead of paying up front, you'd pay, you know, when you started working essentially. So when I found out about that, I was like, all right. I guess I need to go to the UK. So I put together some money with the help of my parents. And I tried to study English. My English has never been really good, but it was really bad at the time because usually the Italian school system doesn't prepare you very well for conversational English at least. It gives you the basis, but you hardly are able to speak with people.

Starting point is 00:13:49 once you finish school. I feel like it's similar in other countries. I think so, yeah. There are some countries that do it better for sure, you know, like Germany or more Nordic countries. I know they're like Sweden. They talk incredible English. I don't know how they do it.

Starting point is 00:14:04 But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In Italy, it's not like that. So, so, you know, I went to the UK and I took one year off from studying because I needed I needed two things. I needed more money. So my parents helped me to actually.

Starting point is 00:14:19 physically go to the UK and find a place where to sleep for the first month or so. But I needed to find a job to actually fund my time there. And then at the same time, I wanted that to be a way to learn English better. So I went to the UK and I worked as a bartender for a year. And in the meantime, I applied for universities. I had found a few universities in the UK which looked like they would give you a good opportunity afterwards to actually make yourself a career

Starting point is 00:14:57 and I yeah after I interviewed I was also working on a portfolio in the meantime so I was trying to create 3D models and digital drawings and traditional drawings anything because in the UK most universities especially if there is a lot of people applying for that university. You need to actually interview. And in my case, which was an artistic field, you need to show a portfolio.

Starting point is 00:15:26 You need to convince them that you are almost like a job interview, basically. So, yeah, so I put together a portfolio, studying English in the meantime, putting aside money, working as a bartender. And after a year, in 2016, I started studying at University of Edfeshire, which is, in Hathfield, about 30 minutes away from London. It's one of the top unis in the UK for this specific field. But in all honesty, I only really understood that after I went to that university. I didn't have a clear idea of what was the very good units you should attend and were the very bad uni. This one was very close to London, so it was convenient for me.

Starting point is 00:16:14 to go there and when I went there for the interview you know I really liked it the lectures buildings it just felt like it was a nice place to study and so yeah so I studied there and I was there for three years and I'm sorry was it specifically the effects course yes it was 3d animation and visual effects so actually the course itself prepares also 2D artists so it does also 2D animation. So a bit like when I was in school, the first part of your journey, basically it's shared with everyone else. And then you choose a pathway in the second year, which could either be 2D, 3D or visual

Starting point is 00:16:59 effects. And that basically informs the specific skills that they will tend to teach you. Because visual effects is such a, and 3D in general, it's such a broad spectrum of things that you need to learn. that they try to also specialize you a little bit early on so that you can actually have valuable skills to get hired afterwards basically and thanks to your background from studying architecture or learning bfx by yourself did you feel like you had advantage was it kind of easier for you to start there um i think so i think that having when i started a lot of people had never opened the 3d software so even though you

Starting point is 00:17:44 you have to present a portfolio. The lecturers, when we had the interviews, also said, it does not matter, it's not just about the portfolio. Sometimes there are people that don't have a portfolio, but they show that they are actually genuinely interested in pursuing this career. Maybe they have other artistic skills, you know, they show photography, and they show traditional drawings, they show something else that, you know, that can let the lecturers know that there will be good candidates for this type of career. In my case, I had actually sort of studied on my own time 3D. And so a lot of the notions that then I got taught in my first year, especially,

Starting point is 00:18:28 they were, I was already at least familiar with. So I was able to, you know, be quite fast with learning the things that, you know, that they were teaching us. And in fact, so much so that I started really hard during my uni because, you know, again, I was coming from a humble family. We were putting all our efforts together money-wise. You know, I was working to make sure I could have enough money to support myself. My parents would help the way they could. And so I studied really hard. And for that reason, paired with the fact that already had a little bit of experience, I actually had my first job at the end of my first year in uni.

Starting point is 00:19:08 And basically I worked from that first job, I worked every year afterwards. The only time I stopped working is because in between, I had to study and do exams, basically. But I was always working since basically. So it definitely helped me. Yeah. Was it working already in the industry or was it working in a pub or something unrelated? Oh, no. So the pop thing was, which was actually a hotel, was working in a bar as a bartender.

Starting point is 00:19:37 it was the year before getting in uni just to fund it. But then the first job I got after the first year of uni was actually already in the industry. So I got selected for the creature launch pad from Fram Store. Oh, that sounds awesome. So that was my first project. I was really lucky as well, you know, again. In the first year, already working on Thor.

Starting point is 00:20:05 Yeah, that sounds amazing. very lucky. And again, I think I think that's a story I should tell because it's one of those things that maybe, you know, if there are people that want to, they are pursuing a career path, not even just visual effects, and they hear this podcast, maybe they should know. Sometimes things don't play out in a way, how can I say, like maybe sometimes you think things should go in a way, but life brings in a different direction. is not necessarily a bad thing. Basically, the way I got the job for Thor is a little bit of a background. During our first year in uni, we would get just general road strokes, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:51 like ideas of how 3D works and visual effects works, just a generalist understanding, essentially, of the visual effects and 3D pipelines. Then by the second year, your main assignment was basically to make a short movie with a group of people. And so by that time, people would usually start choosing some specialization to follow and some things to learn specifically. And then that's what they would do within that team. Maybe more than one thing, but it's already a way to sort of indicating your path essentially. So my initial idea was that I, before joining uni, was that I wanted to be an animator.

Starting point is 00:21:34 then when I joined uni, because I already had some modeling experience and because I had been drawing always since I was a kid, I found out that I was fairly okay in sculpting, at least for a first year student. So I was like, all right, I like this, you know, it looks like I'm okay at it. Maybe that's what I should do. So anything technical at that point, I wasn't interested. Like for that first year, I thought my life was going to be modeling. So I made them, especially specifically, I liked modeling creatures during that first year, like making dinosaurs and crocodiles and horses and just anything that's organic. I really, really enjoyed it.

Starting point is 00:22:19 But by the end of the first year, lectures were saying, try to look for a run a job over December, or maybe try to look for internships. Just basically applied to anything you can. And I took their words seriously. So I think I sent, I don't know, 100 applications, just anything that I could actually, you know, apply for. I applied. And one of these applications were for a creature artist, the creature launch pod in frames for creature artists. Now, at the time, I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:22:57 I thought I knew what a creature artist was, but I had no. I really had no idea. My head meant you make creatures, which is what I thought I wanted to do. So I was sculpting creatures. I think, yeah, that's, you know, that would be amazing. So when I did the interview, I then realized that I had nothing to do with what I, you know, with what I was trying to do in uni. And the whole thing I said before regarding in life, sometimes you think you want

Starting point is 00:23:26 something and then life's doing you somewhere else, and that's actually good. It's funny because that job that I got offered, it's basically what's my career now. So what I'm doing right now, basically that's what it was. Because that first experience, you know, I was able to actually learn the job. And then from there, at uni, explored it further and studied further. And the following jobs gave him more experience. And now that's basically what I'm doing. I'm a creature TD.

Starting point is 00:23:58 which involves a lot of technical scripting and, you know, just a lot of technical knowledge, rigging, simulations, physics, or things that I didn't think I was going to actually need for what I was interested at the time. Yeah, so that was quite funny that I applied for something not actually knowing what I was going for. And then when I got the job, I realized, oh, that's different. Because they started talking about simulations and cloth and hair. And I was like, that's a little bit different from what I was expecting. But I actually loved it. That's the catch.

Starting point is 00:24:42 And it sounds like amazing opportunity and experience. Because being in the first year and working for such a company, such big, amazing project, it's awesome. I hope it encourages other people to at least try to follow something similar. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I mean, again, coming from my perspective, when they told me you're going to work in a Hollywood movie, I just couldn't believe it at the beginning. I was like, this is my first job. I know a lot of people go through very long routes of, you know, being a runner, very valuable routes as well. you know, having to work closely, maybe smaller company first and then medium-sized company. Just the fact that I was able to just jump into the big thing at the time in this,

Starting point is 00:25:33 it felt like this incredible achievement, you know. Obviously, after you do it for a while, you realize it's an incredible job, but it's also just a job as well. And, you know, there's also a lot of value in smaller projects as well. the fact that it's a big project doesn't necessarily mean he has more value than something smaller. But yeah, for sure, like for a refresher, it felt amazing. For how long have you stayed there? So basically, during my years in university, I would always work during the summer break. So for four to five months.

Starting point is 00:26:12 So I think the first time around was four months in Framstore. And the second time around, I was on Venom. and I was in D-neck. So there was my second job. And then the third time around, which was basically when I basically was graduating, I first went to Jellyfish and then I went to D-neck again. So every time during my uni time,

Starting point is 00:26:37 it would be around, yeah, five months a year. I would be working and the rest of the time I would be studying. It sounds like once you graduated, your CV must have been very strong with a portfolio of such companies and projects. Yeah, I was, again, really, really lucky. I was also lucky to find the right people along the way, I think. So when I, for my first job, I joined Bramstore.

Starting point is 00:27:02 I met Erica, which you worked with, Erica Vigilante. She used to be a leading Bramstore at the time. And, you know, it's not like I had anything special, but she saw, you know, some spark in me. I was very passionate about the work I was doing. And so the second time around when I got hired in D-Neg, the following year, she actually referred me. She was like, you know, he worked with me. You can trust the person.

Starting point is 00:27:31 So, you know, I was. And then from there, having already a couple of experiences on your belt meant that by the third year, it was a little easier to find a job. Whereas I know a lot of other people, maybe, you know, they were just about to put their foot into the industry. I had a head start by having already a couple of experiences on big projects. And so, yeah, that meant for me was really easy to actually find a new work and new projects. And so, yeah, again, I was really, really lucky. But I think it's not just luck. So you do need luck in life, for sure.

Starting point is 00:28:10 But I also know I was applying a lot. I was trying really, really hard. Whereas I think a lot of people think, I'm not good at it. You know, I'm not good enough. Why would I bother? And they don't even try. And so by not trying, they waste a lot of opportunities. And that's not just for the effects.

Starting point is 00:28:31 That's just in general. If you don't get yourself out there, like if you don't try to be seen, no one is going to look at you, essentially. So I think it's really important for everyone who tries. to, you know, get into anything, try, you know, try, you know, try to apply for that job that you think you're not worth, you know, you're not cut for. Try it out. You don't, you never know. The worst that can happen, they say no. So, like I said, the first year I applied for, I don't have hundreds companies, but I think a lot of colleagues in uni didn't actually even try

Starting point is 00:29:08 because they thought they were never going to get the job. So, yeah, absolutely, I agree. And even they either don't reply or they may share feedback or maybe they may get back to you later. So it's definitely worth it. And you never know if you send to any applications and then you say, oh, it's not going to work. I'm not going to send anymore. You never know if the 21st could have been the one that you would get accepted. So it's definitely worth continuing. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:29:37 And also rejections are not, you know, you shouldn't take it personally. So right now I'm working in industrial light and magic and that's my second time in ILM. But before getting into I am I actually had interviewed with them three times. So, you know, it took a few rejections to get a yes. You know, if I just thought, oh, I'm not good enough for this company. I'm never going to try again. And now I wouldn't be here, you know, doing my job and being happy in what I'm doing. So it's really, sometimes it is really about actually, you know, putting.

Starting point is 00:30:13 some effort into trying and not thinking you're not good enough. And also obviously, you know, put all the work into producing the best portfolio, best presentation, just whatever is your job, just to, you know, present yourself the best you can and the best show the best that you can produce. And, you know, and then luck will come at some point, you know. Yeah, absolutely. It's great advice. And coming back to your studies, did you then later in your studies, start focusing on a specific, you know, discipline within VFX? Yes, that's sort of another funny story, which ties into the first thing, you know, the fact that I got into the creature effects business by chance, essentially,

Starting point is 00:31:02 my mistake, rather, because I applied for a creature position thinking was something different. Right at the same time, it was the end of the first year in uni. I said during the second year, we basically, the main assignment is to make a movie with a group of people that you can choose to work with. I met a group of people that were very driven, and we were so into it that we started planning for the second year movie at the end of the first year. And so when we were planning, we were already thinking, all right, so who's going to do what? And obviously, I wanted to do the models. I wanted to make the creatures and sculpt them and make the British sculptures. And we basically had every role that we needed fit, fit, but the only one missing

Starting point is 00:31:51 was the technical rigging creature effects guy. Because at the time, no one wanted to do it. It's the less, I think it's less glamorous when you're starting to learn, unless you already have sort of like a programming mindset, which I totally didn't have. It's, you know, it's more glamorous to be the animator or the moddler because you can actually see the artistry sort of playing out on screen it's more direct you know to to experience that so no one wanted to do it and so at some point I was like all right I guess I'm just going to do it then you know I'm just going to learn it so I I just went you know and looked a bunch of resources on rigging you know obviously we were being taught at the same time in uni, but the more specialized lectures were happening in second

Starting point is 00:32:41 year. I needed to learn this before that. So I did a lot of research and started studying. And, you know, as I was doing that, I actually found out that I really liked it. And by chance, again, then I discovered that that was the job that I was about to get in France. So that's why, you know, it's really funny because it sort of all came together by chance once again. Like, I, you know, I get the job that I'm supposed to do something specific. And in the meantime, I discovered that specific thing I actually like to do. And I do it only because no one else wants to do it, basically. And so over the course of the summer, while I was working in the Framistar,

Starting point is 00:33:25 I was also developing this second year movie, or I was prepping for the second year movie with my, you know, the group of people I was working with. And so I really got rigging. And at the time, muscle simulation was a fairly new thing for students at least. I mean, in the visual effects business, it's been there for a while. But it was very expensive and so very inaccessible for visual effects students. But there was a specific software, which is Ziva. It was in infancy.

Starting point is 00:33:59 And it was available to try out for students and experiment. with. So as I was starting to learn rigging, I also tried to do some muscle sim. We had to make this horse for a second year short, short movie. And so I had to, you know, I sculpted all the muscles and I, you know, I solved the muscles. I simulated the muscles. And, you know, as I was doing that, I realized that's what I wanted to do. Pair with the fact that I was doing the same thing in Framester because it was doing creature effects there. I understood that that's what I wanted to research. So during my second and third year, I was basically focused, really heavily on improving my rigging skills and my creature

Starting point is 00:34:41 effects skills, as well as modeling. Because like I said, I mean, students, student shorts, there's a few people working on them. Like there's maybe three, four, five people max working on it. And so at least the core crew. And so you need to do more things. So I was, At the same time as doing rigging and creature effects, I would also do the modeling part. So I could keep some of the artistic, the initial artistic thing that I wanted to do as part of the process, essentially. I like that although there is some kind of luck involved, at the same time, it's also your willingness to learn, willingness to put yourself out there and being proactive. and then it's a great example that it kind of meets together and works out as we discussed. Yeah, I think you really need to try out a lot of things, you know, especially like visual effects.

Starting point is 00:35:37 There are so many departments that do very different things. You know, you take room for instance. It's a whole world in itself, which I tried out as well because also that sort of ties in into the creature realm. And so, you know, you just kind of need to try things. sometimes something that you think you're never going to like. I'll give an example of scripting. I thought I hated it. And now it's my bread and butter and I actually enjoy it a lot.

Starting point is 00:36:04 You know, it's just need to actually try. And sometimes things are scary just because you don't understand them fully. You've never really looked into them. But if you find yourself in the situation of giving them a go, then you might find that you actually enjoy them. So yeah, yeah, most definitely. I might become a master. If you want to boost your online presents, check out our digital marketing agency called Trailblazed.

Starting point is 00:36:33 You can also enroll in a Skillshare course called the 10 Tips on How to Succeed in Your Creative Career, which was inspired by the podcast. Lastly, make sure to subscribe to our weekly newsletter called Creative Spotlight to stay up to date with the show and more. Links are in the show notes. Thanks. So, you know, it might be something that you enjoy do for sure, you know. And so then how did you start looking for a job? Did you continue working for any of the previous companies, or how was it? Yeah, so, so I only been in Framistair once, which is that first job.

Starting point is 00:37:13 Then basically I went to D-Neg, I was in D-NEC three times. And now I've been in ILM2 times. And like I said, there was also a short period that was working in jellyfish. So I sort of went back and forth between DNG and ILM, really essentially at that point. They knew the people there. And depending on the projects and all the things that were happening, specifics of life, I would, you know, go into a company or another right now in CD. And so that led me to, you know, work for ILM in this case.

Starting point is 00:37:49 But in both companies, I always found like a very welcoming environment. And so I think that's why I was able to also go back. I was very lucky to work with people. They were very interesting, very nice people to work with. And yeah, so just in general, it was also fairly easy to keep in contact. I think that's very important for people to keep in touch with the people you've worked with. And yeah, just be nice in the workplace. That means people just, you know, are okay to work with you in the future for sure.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Yeah. And it's another great example when you mentioned before the case with Erica when she recommended you. Because it's like about it's kind of recurring theme, but on this podcast, but the power of networking. And you never know who will meet and how people may help you in the future. So it was a great example. Absolutely. And, you know, at the beginning I said, the uni I attended is one of the top in the UK for the visual effects specifically.

Starting point is 00:38:56 I think their power mainly lies in the fact that they really keep in contact with alumni and they make sure these people can then go back to uni and talk to the students and do workshops and see what the students are up to and then help them, you know, getting a job into the industry. So that's definitely one of the most valuable things, you know. It's not just a portfolio. It's not just wanted to try. That's also another element that's very important,

Starting point is 00:39:33 just having that contact with people. And I am colleagues in ILM with people that were above, one year above me and one year below me. And we were all keeping in contact throughout, the time that we got a job and that we're still in uni basically. So the person was with, there's a person here in ILM who's, he was sort of like my mentor when I was in uni. Like it was, you know, I would send him rigs and he would review them because the lecture

Starting point is 00:40:03 would be like, oh, hit him up. He would be happy to help. And I tried to do the same with some people afterwards and give back. So I think that's real power behind that for sure. Can you now tell us more about your role? What is it you do? describe your it's obviously different but your day-to-day activities yeah yeah so I'm a creature beauty that basically involves two type of tasks usually one it's the rigging

Starting point is 00:40:34 and the other part is the creature effects so rigging basically is the process of building the armature for the puppets and then the animators are going to move so we create the skeleton behind it, behind every character, and then we create the controls, and so the animators then can pick the hand of the puppet or make the puppet smile. Essentially, all the anatomy behind it, we are the people that make that work, essentially. And then the creature effects part of it happens after the animation and basically involves, it's also called technical animation sometimes. It basically involves adding all the, all these effects that are more complicated to achieve through rigs from the animators.

Starting point is 00:41:26 So for instance, the movement of cloth, you know, crinkling of cloth or the movement of hair or the deformations of muscles, you know, beneath the skin and so forth. So anything that's creature-related that animators cannot easily achieve by deforming the puppet themselves we basically put these effects on top of it so yeah that's that's mainly my you know my two areas of uh expertise and i enjoy both of them i'd say but i i think i'm more um drawn into the creature effects side of things it started out more into the rigging and then very quickly got into creature effects and so simulation early on especially of muscle. It was really interesting for me.

Starting point is 00:42:20 Just being able to, you know, show every single muscle behind a movement so that it feels realistic, more organic. For me, it was really interesting. You know, it was, yeah, something that I always love to research and work on. That was my next question. Which one you enjoy more and why? I'd say, yeah, as I burnt your question, sorry. Yeah, I'd say, yeah, like I said, I think creature effects, rigging is really interesting, Because basically, you know, there is sort of a standard way of creating like a standard rig of a biped, of a quadupad. So, you know, a digible or a biped character always sort of has the same number of controls.

Starting point is 00:43:05 But then, depending on the show and depending on the animators working on it, they always have requests or particular tasks that you really need to think about it, how to, you know, make that happen. You know, maybe the animator wants to do something particular without rig that has never been done or not usually done. And so you kind of really need to think hard about it and then try to implement the best solution that's more intuitive for the animator and more performance. You get more performance out of it as well.

Starting point is 00:43:38 With creature effects, you get more artistic in the sense that you, sometimes you need the cloth and the hair to act, you know, actually most of the time because the type of work we do for Hollywood movies, everything is art directed, you know. Yeah. If it's, I

Starting point is 00:43:55 worked, for instance, on the Abba show that's in London. I don't know if you've heard of it in Abba voyage. So there's sort of this theater where the Abba, you know, dance around

Starting point is 00:44:11 and they look young and they look like they're in the stage, but they're all digital. And I worked on that in London. And for that show, because they're dancing around all the time, we basically had to make these costumes not only hyper real and feel like they were realistic, but also the movements needed to feel like by chance they were always perfect. So they always were in tune with the song. The hair, you know, we always fall in a particular way.

Starting point is 00:44:42 and skirts would always create these nice worlds and we'd really, you know, with really fine detail, we art directed the way these garments needed to move. So it is more artistic that way. The creature affects part of things for sure. I was curious to ask you if the work itself kind of always challenges you or if there is still new stuff to learn. So from what you said, it sounds like something that keeps you, you know, to exploring, to learning and keeps you challenged all the time.

Starting point is 00:45:13 Yeah, so especially, I think we're both, for both rigging and creature effects, really, because it's about creatures and because we make all kinds of creatures, you know, yes, maybe if you do a biped, it feels a bit repetitive at times because that's just another guy that you need to rig. But for instance, when I worked on Ant Man, on the last Ant Man,

Starting point is 00:45:39 there was a sequence where they went into this sort of canteena, Star Wars Cantina-like scene with a ton of creatures, they were all completely different. So there was like a guy, there was like a Chewbacca with dreadlocks, and the dreadlocks would float around. And then there was another creature, there was like a squid, and had petals, huge petals on its back. And another guy was made, it was like a broccoli guy in his face. All the florets of the broccoli were out.

Starting point is 00:46:09 We have to seem all of these things. So you understand there is no one way to do this thing. You always have to, you know, look at that character and think, how the heck am I going to make this work, you know? And it's really fun, you know. It's really, really challenging. So, yeah, I'm really, again, really lucky because working with creatures means you, it's a little bit like effects.

Starting point is 00:46:31 You always need to find new ways, new ideas, you know, new challenging things, you know, feathers, muscle, hair, cloth. Just whatever. It's definitely interesting. And you just mentioned a few, but is there a project or a specific asset that for some reason you enjoyed working on or challenge you a lot or for some reason is sharing or is worth sharing? So I think I've mentioned it already. So the Abba show, I think to this day is the thing that I'm the most proud of because we get to work on all this amazing IPs. you know, this incredible Hollywood movies

Starting point is 00:47:13 with these incredible visuals because the companies behind these visuals have very skilled artists. And I think after a while you get used to it. You get used to the fact that this thing goes in front of a screen and a lot of people look at it and then it goes to a streaming service

Starting point is 00:47:27 and then, you know, it's cool at the beginning but then it's just part of the routine. The Abba show was something very different and I got to experience it myself. I got to go to the theater. and actually my mom and my mother-in-law, they went to the theater as well to see it in person. And it's one of a kind experience.

Starting point is 00:47:49 Because you go to the cinema and you do that many times in your life. Something like that, it's a very specific experience that you will remember for sure. So definitely the Abba show. I think I only understood the value of it when I saw it in person for the first time. I was so proud of the work we did, and I am still today. So there was the first project that I did when I joined ILM.

Starting point is 00:48:17 But obviously, like, when I joined, I thought, cool, I'm going to do dinosaurs. I'm going to do Star Wars, you know, I'm going to do Indiana Jones and all the cool things that you think you're going to make. And then they told me, yeah, you are in this Abba show. I was like, Abba? No way. I'm in I am in an hour. And I'm stuck for a year and a half on this project about four old people singing. But then it was one of the most amazing things.

Starting point is 00:48:45 You know, I worked on so far. So I'm so glad and happy I was part of that. It was a very stressful project. But the final result, it's really, if you see it in person, it's really worth it. Absolutely. So yeah, definitely that one. I like it. I will Google it more after I recorded.

Starting point is 00:49:03 You should go. If you're in London, you should go watch it. And yeah, it's an experience worth doing for sure. Yep. And I wonder, I don't want to sound like an interview question, but do you have like a specific position in mind that you would want to achieve in the future? Maybe like a supervisor or something? So so far I've always sort of like the being able to work on, you know,

Starting point is 00:49:32 on my things as a creature TD, not having to, lead or having to necessarily have the responsibility. But definitely, you know, it's something that I'd like to try it out as well, just for what I said at the beginning, which is I think you need to try things so that you can understand if that's your path or your path is something else. So I'm definitely interested. I think in quite a few occasions, I was able to, you know, experience having to, I don't know, maybe not teach. but like follow people through learning how to work with something or I wouldn't strictly say deed but you know sort of help people working with a setup or help people understanding a certain workflow and I

Starting point is 00:50:20 generally really enjoyed it and I enjoyed when people manage to achieve something out of that so I don't know maybe leading maybe at some point teaching I'm I'm not sure the answer I always give myself is that no matter what I'll do I hope I will enjoy the same amount that I enjoy what I do right now, if not even more. So, yeah. That's great, reasonable, and I agree and hope you will find it. With the rich portfolio of projects you worked on, do you have like a dream project that you would want to work on? Oh man. So, stuff.

Starting point is 00:51:04 So my dream when I, you know, started working in this industry is that one day I would work with Pixar. And so one of their shows, I think it's just because it's a child in me, you know, that is still looking at these Pixar movies. You know, Wally, Nemo, The Incredibles, and just, you know, BMA is still am amazed at these movies. But I did work on very cool feature projects, I think, with both Tienek and I&M that were. you know, I'm also very proud of these. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a feature. I don't know, maybe something to the scale of Avatar, you know, where, you know, just make, basically be a part of an effect that people go, wow, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:50 they make, for a week everyone talks about it because it's so, it's so great, you know. Like I remember when Avatar, the new Avatar came out, which I went to watching IMAX and I was blown away, there was a particular scene where the detail of a hand of a navvy was then discussed for weeks on the internet because it looked so good, you know. And I think I'd just like to be part of, you know, something like that, you know, being able to work on something that looks that good, you know. So, yeah, maybe it's not a specific project, but more like one project that really nails something that hasn't been nailed that good before. Yeah, for sure. It's completely understandable to be part of Avatar, I believe, to be dream of many people. And I'm not surprised.

Starting point is 00:52:41 Yeah, you know, it's really the pinnacle of the visual effects. You know, I mean, we have several examples. June came out recently. It's really, really amazing. I worked in it, but I have a really small part. The very cool things were done by other people. And, you know, so there are a lot of movies. that we get to work on that are amazing but yeah i just wish i could uh someday be you know that specific

Starting point is 00:53:06 shot that everyone wows you know i contributed a little bit maybe so that's for sure something that i'd like to have and talking about cinema experience this is the question i like to ask but when you go to cinema or watch the film somewhere are you able to enjoy the film without thinking about how this and this was made uh that's That's a tough question. So it's really, really hard. I don't know. I know some people manage to, to just go and not think about it.

Starting point is 00:53:40 I think if the movie, it's visual effects heavy, I just cannot see the movie without actually, you know, starting to look for details. Or, you know, I have this thing. I don't know if I've ever talked to any of my colleagues about it. I think I did at some point, where sometimes when I can feel the scene, it's basically all CGI. I start to look at the scene, and I can imagine the 3D version of that. Like, I can imagine to move around in Maya, you know, whatever, and actually look through all the things that are broken. It's really weird.

Starting point is 00:54:18 I think it's because we are used to, we have to do it in daily session, and, you know, we just have to be very scrutinous and just, you know, look at pixels in detail. and then go back into a 3D software and fix it and see what's behind the magic. Whenever I see it on the big screen, it just feels like a new daily session, and I need to go back to my 3D software to fix whatever needs to be fixed. Especially if I worked on it, it's really hard. You know, when characters are on top of a plate, people feel fine. I can see the play. I can see the 3D character.

Starting point is 00:54:54 It's really, really hard for me to, you know, they don't feel glued to my eye, because I'm just used to it, basically. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's completely understand them. Also, I wanted to ask you, because of your recent experience, as you moved to Australia, how do you find it? Because you moved across the whole world.

Starting point is 00:55:14 Can you share us more? Not when it comes to work, but maybe from the culture experience, what is it like to live in a completely different place? Tell us more about it. So, I might be a little bit biased right now because I've always I've only been in Sydney for a couple of months So I'm still in the honeymoon period Of when you move to a new place

Starting point is 00:55:40 Whilst I had been in London for eight years And so I know the good and I know the bad of Being in London I'd say that Because I'm Sicilian and so I come from a very warm Part of Italy of the country it feels more natural for me, you know, a climate weather like the one in Australia. It feels more similar. Also, Sicily, it's an island. So I grew up seeing the horizon of the sea. And in London, you can't do that. Yes, you've got the stains, but it's not the same thing, obviously. And so if you grew up with that,

Starting point is 00:56:18 you know, sort of harbor city sort of mindset, you kind of, at least in my case, I've always tried to find it in the places they visit whenever there's a harbor. wherever there is a beach maybe I just instantly feel at home so I feel that you know if Sydney was much closer to home then it would be the perfect city

Starting point is 00:56:41 but obviously it's also really really far away yeah it's definitely an amazing experience though anything is different if you are European and you've never seen Australia it just feels like a different planet sometimes because the animals are different you know, it's a lot of Asia.

Starting point is 00:57:00 I mean, you know, there's the meme of things will kill you all the time. She's probably not true. But you definitely need to learn things that you're not used to. Like, you know, don't swim in the harbor, for instance, because sharks are there. You know, things that I would never thought in my hometown. But yeah, but it's an amazing place, definitely. There's some culture shock. you experience? Maybe something embarrassing or awkward that you would be willing to share?

Starting point is 00:57:34 Trying to think. Oh, well, Begermite was a cultural shock. Because in the eight years, I was in the... So it's a threat. In the eight years, I was in the UK. I never had Marmite, which is a big regret. I will try it out when I go back to London. Bejumite is an Australian version. When I got to Australia, it was one of the first things I wanted to try. I'm like, I need to try this. And I don't have a strong opinion. I think I understand why people get divided.

Starting point is 00:58:04 But that was a, I don't know if it's a cultural shock. You can we consider a cultural shock? But yeah, jokes aside, I think one of the things that are really different in Sydney compared to, say, London is that it really feels there is a big Asian community. And so you experience a lot of China, a lot of Korea. you know, a lot of India as well. You can experience these things in London as well, but in here I have a feeling

Starting point is 00:58:30 they feel a bit more authentic, probably because they're closer to, you know, the countries where these cultures come from. And so it's really interesting from someone that comes from Europe. You're used to the whole, you know, set of European cultures to be exposed to these new,

Starting point is 00:58:49 fairly new cultures, to this level of authenticity, you know. There are entire areas of Sydney There is, you know, only Chinese people Only Korean people So if you go there, you go to a restaurant You know, you get something that's quite close To what they would have back at home

Starting point is 00:59:06 And so it's like you get to do a little trip To an Asian country that you've never visited for instance And so that's my cool actually about Sydney Also meet out of Europeans or not really So there are There definitely are Europeans but there's definitely more people from Asia for my experience in Alfredia obviously

Starting point is 00:59:28 yeah there is a lot of people from Singapore as well you know so it's it's really multicultural like London but obviously London is more European driven and here it's more Asia driven so I'm used to the multiculturalism which is a very cool thing it's nice to experience new cultures as well to this magnitude, because obviously you can find, you know, the Chinese area or the, you know, Chinatown or maybe, you know, the Italian area in London as well.

Starting point is 01:00:03 I just feel like it's a different scale for the Asian countries here in Sydney, specifically at least. Yeah, so sounds like a beautiful place and that you like it there, so I hope you really enjoyed it. Yeah. I know we discussed this a bit before about, uh, what will be your future position, but as we will be approaching the end, do you have like any specific plans in mind right now or, you know, my like next, like closest plan I have is to visit Japan since I'm so close because that's a long term. Jokes aside, like long-term plans right now, I'm not sure. I am, I feel like I'm

Starting point is 01:00:51 in an industry that's changing very fast. Visual effects has always been evolving fast because of the nature of the industry's technical field. But right now it seems like it's evolving at 10 times the speed and it will in the future years. So I don't know if the way we do the work it's going to be the same or it's going to evolve into something else. What I know is that I really enjoy doing visual effects.

Starting point is 01:01:21 It's what I've basically always done since I started working and it's all I like to do and I've liked to do so far. So I hope this, you know, art does not die in the future. You know, I welcome automation for sure when tasks are tedious or repetitive. But I think I really hope for this art not to just become, you know, just like a money-making thing, you know, any human input behind it. I mean, it's unlikely that's going to happen, but just generally I think this is a very passion-driven industry.

Starting point is 01:02:05 And the people that work in this industry do it because they like it. It's one of those jobs that you really do it because you like it. It's almost a vocational time. So, yeah, I hope in the future I can keep doing this job and I am, you know, as driven as I've been so far for sure. Yep. So tell us, Georgia, where people can follow you or where they can see your work. Not really an influencer of any kind.

Starting point is 01:02:37 Not yet. If you want to, you know, get in contact, get in touch, you know, maybe discuss some cool VFX topics. Maybe you can hit me up on. LinkedIn and be happy to you know to answer if you're a student you want some guidance maybe you know happy to help what we've been so yeah you got a portfolio there or do you have a portfolio website so yeah there is a website I think is jorjapanisi.com probably the problem with my heart I can't remember I think it is it is in my LinkedIn though

Starting point is 01:03:15 so you can check it out from there and there's a show reel you can see some of the recent works although it needs to be updated probably and yeah and if you probably look hardly enough online you'll find my student films as well one of them I'm actually one of the actors in the movie so you can actually see my

Starting point is 01:03:37 pretty face acting as a cowboy with a CG course I will need I will I will Google it for sure I'm curious and I actually forget to ask you about the personal projects. Do you also have time or passion or do you do, do you work any on, you know,

Starting point is 01:03:58 personal projects? Yeah, so I used to, when I started a career, I used to do loads personal projects. I used to spend so many hours, you know, I would come back at home and keep working. And then in the weekend, I would just also work. And then, you know, at some point, I just started to also enjoy life. Because obviously, if you do it as a full-time job, you do it eight hours very often more than eight hours a day. And so you are really involved into that already. And by the end of the day, I like to get away from the computer and start doing other things. But, you know, I don't, I think at some point maybe I'll get into some personal projects as well.

Starting point is 01:04:41 But yeah, I used to do it a lot more. But right now I'm just, you know, taking it easy a little bit and enjoying other aspects of life as well, which I think it's really important. Enjoy the local culture. Enjoyed a new place. Yeah. So as we are just at the end, is there something that you would want to share or, you know, promote yourself or something I should have asked and did not ask you? Not really, nothing to promote myself specifically. Maybe just a final message to the people that are trying to get into this industry.

Starting point is 01:05:17 Don't be too discouraged right now by. the times. They are really tough for everyone, but like everything, you know, it's up and downs. After a moment of crisis, there's always a nice moment of things going in a good direction. And, you know, just, you know, keep trying to learn things that you like, keep trying to explore things that you like. And you, you know, if you put the right amount of time and passion to find your place for sure. So, yeah, just don't. be discouraged, keep trying. And yeah, I guess that's my final message.

Starting point is 01:05:55 Perfect advice to finish with. I just have to mention, which we haven't mentioned, that I actually worked with Georgia. We worked on a project that I think hasn't been announced yet, so I cannot say what was it. No. But it was always pleasure to work with Georgia. I really enjoyed it. And I'm happy that you joined me on a podcast. And thank you so much for joining.

Starting point is 01:06:18 Yeah, same goes for you, Thomas. It was amazing to work with you and I'm really, really happy to, you know, to have been part of the podcast. I think you're doing an amazing job. I watched the other episodes, you know, during these days. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really nice, really, it's really nice to hear people's stories and I heard Fernando's story as well, which was really interesting because, you know, I also work with Fernando. And I think it's really nice to hear people's stories. And I think it's really nice. inspiring so yeah you're doing a great job mate thank you i really appreciate it and i will stay in touch thank you georgie all right hi thank you thank you for listening if we enjoy the show please leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast app get in touch to provide your feedback or share any ideas for future guests thank you and see you soon

Produced By - No Stopping This VFX Artist: Sicily, London, Sydney - Always Creating | #51: Giorgio Pennisi

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.