Produced By - The Human Advantage: Building Brands With Intention and Heart | 125: Michelle J Raymond

Starting point is 00:00:00 My experience is it is the world's best job to be able to help use problem solving skills and help other people. And when you bring those two things together and you discover the right product at the right price, at the right time, it's magic. And that's when things happen. So I do it to show other people how they can grow their business. And if we get really deep on this, why do I do it? Because I believe if I can help others grow their business, they'll employ more people. And I think if you have meaningful work and get paid to do that, you have choices in life. And I think that makes a better world. And that's why I'm trying to help people do this. And because it takes a lot to have your own business. It's hard work. You don't do it just for fun. You are doing it because there's something

Starting point is 00:00:46 more driving you. And so I'm just the same. But I just at the end of the day, want people to live the life that they want. And my way of getting them closer to that is just helping them use LinkedIn to grow up. Before we dive into today's episode, please hit that subscribe button. Your support helps us grow and inspire more people on their journeys. Thank you. Hello, Michelle. Thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.

Starting point is 00:01:15 We're on opposite sides of the world, but we have one thing in common. We love LinkedIn, so I can't wait to have this chat. That is very true. Same with our audience. And Michelle, for those who don't know you, can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. I'm Michelle J. Raymond and the initial J is there so that you can actually find me on LinkedIn because I have a really common name and so often people say, I couldn't find you. So tip for anyone out there. If your name's common, add your middle initial so that people can find you. So I'm based here in Sydney.

Starting point is 00:01:46 I am a creator on LinkedIn as well as somebody that teaches businesses how to leverage LinkedIn for business growth. So specifically focused on B2B businesses and my angle on LinkedIn comes back to how do you build personal brands and company brands together for better results. And so I'm known around the world as an international speaker on LinkedIn company pages. I co-wrote the world's first book and only book on company pages. That's how funny. I guess that's how exciting I found the opportunity five years ago that no one else was talking about them. So yeah, company pages is kind of my thing. I was really surprised when you mentioned Jay in your name. I would never expect that, but it makes sense. Yeah, I had that problem back in the clubhouse chat days. You know, I was in a

Starting point is 00:02:40 clubhouse chat room and there was another Michelle Raymond popped up and I even have an auntie called Michelle Raymond. So it's happened to me my entire life. So someone said to me, Michelle, why don't you just put your initial in there and I say, oh, there's an easy fix. So that's why it's there. And I think when you think about it, it makes sense because we've got to make it easy for people to find us on LinkedIn because we have to take some things into our own hands. It's not all LinkedIn's job. So that's just one of the little ways that I do it. It is true. And not only LinkedIn, because even when I do some preparation for the podcast and I search on Google, I guess that if I put there, Michelle Raymond, I would get a lot of results, but since I went for Michelle J. Raymond, it was much easier.

Starting point is 00:03:24 So that's a smart idea. Yeah, one that I'm sticking with to build my personal brand. And you're right. You've got to make sure that no matter where people are looking for you. So my YouTube channel has that same initial, my TikTok account, not that I use it very often, but it also has that name. So I've claimed it. So I own it everywhere because I think having that brand alignment is really important.

Starting point is 00:03:48 and again, it just makes it easy for people to find me. I think so. I agree. I was Michelle really curious to hear your story. How did you basically discover LinkedIn? It's also the question that I kind of ask everyone. Then I read it or listened to it on your website, and I think it's really inspiring and interesting. So can you tell us what was like the background or the career that you did before

Starting point is 00:04:11 and about the moment that made you to switch and push with this type of career? Yeah, for sure. I spent 20 odd years in B2B sales roles, so account managers in manufacturing environments mostly. And like many people, 10 years ago, I used LinkedIn to get a new job. And the new job was a job that I was familiar with, but in a completely new industry, that I didn't have any existing relationships in that particular industry. And I started this new job and people, you know, were really lovely. And then my boss came to me and said, Michelle, here's your customer list.

Starting point is 00:04:51 We're going to give you 80 customers spread around Australia, which is the size of the US. It's a big country. And off you go and sell. And I was like 10,000 ingredients that I have to offer. 80 customers spread around Australia. This math isn't adding up. And I'd seen people posting content on LinkedIn when I was doing my job stuff. And I'd updated my profile because I thought it would be good to help me.

Starting point is 00:05:17 get that job. And that's kind of all I'd done. But I said to my boss, look, can I post some content? And he was like, Michelle, I don't even know what you're talking about. But if it's free, I don't care. That was his only guidance. Is it free? And I said, I think so. I didn't even know. I said, I think so. And he said, well, just go and sell. And I was like, okay, you know, I want to impress. And so he started to create some content really as a way to be able to connect what we did with as many people as I could in the industry in an online world because the world had changed and if you Googled this particular business you couldn't find anything online because that industry was an industry where they kept little black books of secrets so that nobody else could find out because

Starting point is 00:06:01 that's how you protected your business that silly thing called you know the internet and Google and all of that data that we now have at our fingertips just change the game but what happened Thomas was I realized if you just post content, but you don't have any community to actually see that content, you're just basically talking to yourself. So I went around to building the world's most amazing community, built around the chemicals and beauty industry, which is where I come from. And I built that when no one else was doing it. And I just watched the sales come in. It was incredible. That was about 10 years ago. But fast forward, around five years ago, I quit my job. and had to do that on the spot. It wasn't my choice. But the next day I decided I wasn't going to work for anyone else again. And, you know, one of those things happened where I had no idea what I was going to do. So what I did is I just realized my industry, because it was COVID and we're in lockdown, had started to use LinkedIn to do what I'd been doing for a long time. So I kind of said to them, you know what? If you do this, this and this, it'll make a huge difference on LinkedIn. And thankfully, somebody said to me, Michelle,

Starting point is 00:07:13 Where did you learn all of this? I wish I could learn from you. And the rest, as they say, is history. I get to teach people all over the world now how to leverage LinkedIn for business growth. And I think I've got the best job in the world. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. And that's some serious experience, as you said, it's been more than 10 years. Like then I had no idea there is something like LinkedIn. So it's impressive. Yeah, look, LinkedIn's changed so much in that 10 years. I remember when I first started. There was no limits on how many people you connected with. And I would sit there on a, you know, Saturday night watching TV, just connecting with as many people as I can. And if you think about it, this is how much LinkedIn's changed. Now you're limited to roughly 100 people per week. You know, so if you're just starting out on LinkedIn today and trying to compare yourself to someone like myself that's been on there for 10 years,

Starting point is 00:08:08 there are people that have been on there a lot longer than I have, that's why they've got much bigger number. And LinkedIn's not really designed now to have huge numbers of followers and be like an influencer or that style of creator on LinkedIn. Like, you know, they just don't support that kind of structure. So, yeah, things have changed a lot. I mean, back then we didn't have articles. We didn't have newsletters. LinkedIn Live was fancy. Like, there's so many new tools that we've got.

Starting point is 00:08:37 But it's definitely way more crowded these days. It's kind of crazy. as we are then comparing what was it before like and what does it now like? What do you think it's going to be like in the future? Of course, it's a broad question, but maybe in a few years. Yeah, I actually think, and I can feel it right now and myself and with other, my community on LinkedIn right now, it's a really interesting time and not in the good way on LinkedIn right now.

Starting point is 00:09:07 You know, I'm an optimist, I'm a pretty positive person. and no matter what changes have come by on LinkedIn, I just roll with it. You know, that's my kind of personality, and most of the people around me are like that. Some things press my buttons, but in general I like to see the best in things. But I think with the algorithm changed back in June,

Starting point is 00:09:26 where we went from, you know, LinkedIn shifted it, from reach to relevancy. And for people who don't know what that is, reach is the number of impressions that you see on your post of that number that always shows up, and it might be 500, it might be, you know, 50,000 depending who you are. But then they changed it to relevancy.

Starting point is 00:09:46 And that number, which we'd been so used to judging our work on, is now halved, or in many cases, even less than half of that number. So for ever in a day, I would be just getting two and a half to three and a half thousand impressions on my post, didn't matter what I did. Pretty much been standard like that for a long time. And now some days I might get a thousand, some days it goes up to five, some days it's back at two. Like it is all over the place. And I feel like I don't see my friends anymore.

Starting point is 00:10:17 Like, you know, I'm like, what do they think is relevant to me? Because what I'm seeing is not what I want to see. And I think it's the first time I felt like people are a bit angry with LinkedIn and not enjoying it and looking for alternatives. and I think that there will be an alternative that will pop up in place of LinkedIn over the next couple of years, which isn't going to be an interesting time for them. But I think they need to spend less time trying to be like other platforms and just do what they do well, which is business networking. That's a good point because I feel like that I've seen quite a lot of changes lately too.

Starting point is 00:10:57 For example, I remember the video. I'm sure that you remember when they introduce the button on the mobile app. And suddenly it disappeared, so it's not there anymore. And I can often see people also, like, posting that there's like a new metric to cover or to look at with your posts. And I'm like, it's very frequent. How is someone even able to, you know, keep up with this? And then it disappears quickly again. So I don't know if they are testing or what is it going on.

Starting point is 00:11:25 Yeah, there's a lot of testing going on in video especially. Like you'll see posts from LinkedIn promoting how amazing. it is and reaches up on video compared to the previous year. That's because in the end of 2024, they turned up the dial. You could do a short form video, vertical format, get shown in the new feed and get like a million impressions. And I had a bunch of friends who were able to do that consistently for no real rhyme or reason. Like it was like someone just went, okay, here's my magic wand. You can have a million impressions. You can have a million impressions and everybody got a million impressions. And then when everybody was liking it,

Starting point is 00:12:03 then all of a sudden, LinkedIn turned it back off again. And so I find right now that I don't even see the video tab anymore. I don't see videos in my feed besides normal posts. I don't think that they know what it's going to look like in the future. But the one thing that's driving this, which is really important to kind of understand about LinkedIn, is that reflective of the workforce, 65 to 75% of LinkedIn is Gen Z and millennials, you know, and so 65% is Gen Z alone. And what they enjoy and how they use social will really influence the kind of features that we see coming through on LinkedIn. So I'm way out of that. I'm a Gen X or I'm nearly 50.

Starting point is 00:12:50 So, you know, I feel like I'm, you know, oh my God, I've turned into that old person on LinkedIn. Like, when did that happen? When did that happen? But, you know, it's kind of funny when you think about it. I think so. It's important to follow and keep up with the trends to see what is going on. But at the same time, I understand they want to keep relevant. Because I don't want to say now something that is not true,

Starting point is 00:13:15 but I believe that I've seen maybe it was some old man or someone posting that they want to make some kind of competition for LinkedIn, which is a good thing because it pushes them to innovate. At the same time, it means that maybe some people might leave LinkedIn, but I don't know if it's going to happen. It's just something that I saw. Yeah, look, I think social in general is going to go through a bit of a rethink because, you know, you look at it here in Australia.

Starting point is 00:13:42 We've just had new laws that have come through that stop kids under 16 from having access to social media. And I think that that's brilliant. The amount of online bullying and trolling and craziness that kids have to deal with today, You know, by the time they reach adult age and working age and that kind of stuff, they've had so many negative experiences. I don't think that being on a platform for work is something that they would enjoy or look to. And we might go back to old school things.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Like when I first started selling, we had things like long lunches. You took customers out and sat down for a coffee or you went out and whined and dined them. And, you know, they were the fun days. You know, those days are long gone. I remember the sales team used to go on fishing trips and all kinds of crazy stuff. And I don't think we should go all the way back there. But I do think that actually having that human connection is what people are craving. And I don't think that it's happening when algorithms get in between two people.

Starting point is 00:14:41 And so the other downside, and I was reading a really interesting article with social media today, that pose the question that the algorithms, you know, that whole rage baiting and clickbait, you know, like kind of content. We know that negative content spreads, you know, what is it, eight times faster than positive content. And so the system's kind of up against those people like me who love happiness and sunshine and fairies and all the good stuff. You know, we're just not designed to win at this game.

Starting point is 00:15:13 So it's like, you know, people like me will start to look for, well, where else can I go where things are a little bit kinder? And so I like to think that that's the shift that we're. will happen over time. But at the moment, we're probably dealing more with a shift on LinkedIn that it's now paid to play. And I've just seen today one of my friends in the US got access to the beta testing for being able to run boost posts on your own personal posts. So if you think about that, if now as an individual, I can spend my $10, my $50, my couple of hundred dollars, to boost my post, that's a game changer when you think about we're already seeing many features

Starting point is 00:15:56 behind paywalls for premium on company pages and personal profiles. And that is something we'd never seen from LinkedIn. So yeah, there's a lot of big changes. So if it feels a bit bumpy for your listeners, yeah, it is bumpy, right? So hold on and, you know, just write it out. It reminded me or just came to my mind, imagine if you are someone rich who has never been into LinkedIn, but you join, you boost your posts and in a few, I don't know, weeks or months, your followers Skyrocket. So it's a completely different game. Yeah, it is. And one that I don't like for that reason where it kind of divides the world even more between have and have not. So those people with money get the advantage, those without miss out. You know, that's the world in

Starting point is 00:16:45 general, but I liked that LinkedIn was pretty much a level playing field. Yes, companies can pay for ads and that's always been, you know, a part of social and I understand that. But I kind of liked the innocence of people not being able to boost their posts because you had to work harder and figure out what works for your audience. You can get around this by building a strategic community and creating content that is in service of them and not talking about yourself the whole time. So you don't need to pay, but I think that there will be people that think if I put money behind a post is going to solve all of my problems. But all that's going to happen is you're going to pay for a rubbish post that doesn't resonate with an audience to be seen by more people.

Starting point is 00:17:29 And that could be more damaging than not having that visibility at all. So interesting times we're in, that's for sure. That is true. And something that I wanted to mention when we discussed, For example, your previous experience of lunches when networking in real life and what is it now? I wonder what is it going to be like even more in the future, of course, a big topic with AI. Because for me, I don't want to complain, but often feels like that I'm not even engaging with people on LinkedIn. Because if you see AI comments and you know that those are AI comments and people still pretend they are not, it's just like talking to no one or actually talking to a robot and it's for me at least it's very disappointed and there's so much evidence that says very soon we won't even know what's real

Starting point is 00:18:20 and what's not especially if it comes to videos i've had my own personal experience of this i was on chris do's podcast and so many of the comments on his youtube channel like he's got over a million subscribers on that channel so the feedback which i go and read the comments was, is this a Gen AI bot, basically? Was I one of those scenarios from like, Hey, Jen, where I'm a talking head, an AI? And I was like, it's me. Like, I've just practiced for five years and how to become a good speaker. Like, I've got great lighting.

Starting point is 00:18:56 Thank you for thinking I'm a robot. But no, I'm real. You know, I don't know how to prove it. And I was talking about this to someone just this week. And he said to me, Michelle, I, I actually think that the future will be that people will pay a premium to work with real people and not AI. And I like to think that that's the world that will live in as much as those who love AI

Starting point is 00:19:22 think it's so good. Let's automate relationships. Can you imagine if you did that in any other area of your life? Oh, hi. I need a new friend. AI, go do all the work for me and come back and tell me who you found. Like that would be weird. I want to get into a new relationship.

Starting point is 00:19:38 AI, can you go sort that out and then bring back a partner for me? Like, honestly, like, that's just weird. So I don't understand why we do it on LinkedIn. Like, are we really that desperate to find new connections that we don't even do it ourselves? Like, I don't know. It's weird. I feel like that people just want to speed up the process and they show up. Of course, I might be wrong, but I think they might be comparing to others, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:05 because you join LinkedIn, you see people with high engagement, impressions, following and everything, because also I think what is, I don't want to say, problem, but what you can see happens a lot is that people share their wins. For example, you see the post, I closed this and that number of clients from this post and blah, blah, but no one tells you how many they haven't closed, what haven't worked out in the end, and then it's easy to compare. And then if it's someone who joined, for example, recently, they want to, quick results. But as we are speaking now, and you just said it, you've been showing them for more than 10 years,

Starting point is 00:20:41 it's like what no one knows or they are not just willing to put the work in. And then that's, in my opinion, why they want to speed it up or find some shortcuts. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody wants stuff now, that instant gratification. And when you do start on LinkedIn and you look around and you find big influences, most people don't question, how did they get those hundreds of thousands of followers. Why are they getting that engagement every single post? Like it's, you know, without fail, the same people showing up, the same numbers of likes and comments on every single post, no real thoughtful content or engagement going on. And you scratch your head and go, this doesn't seem right. Like, why am I pouring so much effort into it? And I just

Starting point is 00:21:26 want to reiterate with listeners that ultimately most people on LinkedIn, like if you see them and they've climbed above 40,000, 50,000 kind of followers and they're not, and they haven't been on LinkedIn for like 20 years, they have gamed the system. And I'm very happy to say that. There are a couple of rare unicorns on LinkedIn, those people that joined at the right time and the right place. But most of the ones that have hundreds of thousands of followers have all cheated the system if they're not a famous person that we know, you know, outside of LinkedIn. You know, those, those people like Bill Gates, like, you know, that's a whole brand and a whole company. And even he's been building his personal brand for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years. So from that perspective, like, don't be put

Starting point is 00:22:14 off fire and just be careful because those people will shout from the rooftops how easy LinkedIn is. And it's really not. Like, I do this day in out. I train people. I teach people. I do it myself. for my business and for my clients. And it's slow on LinkedIn right now. You have to work harder. Things are taking longer. People aren't paying as much. That's the reality of the world that we're on.

Starting point is 00:22:41 And if you think you can just show up, post some content and the sales leads will come in. I've got to break it to you. That is a dream, my friends. You should wake up. That's like me pretending I'm going to run a marathon just because I, you know, went to the walked in the door at the gym. like it ain't going to happen. You have to do more work.

Starting point is 00:23:02 And it's slow. You know, it's not designed to happen overnight. I will send people specifically to this section because I feel like that that's, I don't know, the majority of people what they think. I show up, I post, work done. Now we just heard. Bring it all in.

Starting point is 00:23:20 Exactly. And as you just said that, Michelle, what is it? I mean, it's probably obvious that it's your work or the business, but you've been in a game for a long time. So what is it that has been kind of pushing you because it's not always easy to show up? So what's been your motivation or when you fell down that you don't want to? What is it that helps you? Yeah, I appreciate you asking me because I am going through one of those stages right now where some days I question, why am I doing all of this?

Starting point is 00:23:51 It's a lot of hard work. And some days, the return on that effort isn't equal to how much effort you put in. Like, there is nothing on LinkedIn that says, I put in 20 hours, I'll get this many clients. You know, some days, I can work for two hours and get clients. Some days I can work, you know, for 150 hours and get nowhere. Like, and, you know, you're always, it's like a farmer. You're always planting seeds. You're always going through the process of making sure you water it, get rid of the weeds, you know, like, you know, and it takes time.

Starting point is 00:24:22 and the process. If you don't follow the process, you definitely don't get that reward. But to answer your question, why do I do it? I genuinely love helping other people grow their business. And my experience in sales, my entire career, most people roll their eyes and can think, why would you want to be in sales? Like, it's the worst job in the world for a lot of people because they have this vision of it being some kind of job where your whole idea of the job is to rip other people off. You know, like use car salesman is what we would say here in Australia, and that's where their brain goes to. My experience is it is the world's best job to be able to help use problem solving skills and help other people. And when you bring those two things together and you discover the right product at the right price, at the right time, it's magic.

Starting point is 00:25:12 You know, and that's when things happen. So I do it to show other people how they can grow their business. And, you know, if we get really deep on this, why do I do it? Because I believe if I can help others grow their business, they'll employ more people. And I think if you have meaningful work and get paid to do that, you have choices in life. And I think that makes a better world. And that's why I'm trying to help people do this. And, you know, because it takes a lot to have your own business. It's hard work. You don't do it just for fun. You are doing it because there's something more. driving you. And so I'm just the same, but I just at the end of the day, want people to live the life that they want. And my way of getting them closer to that is just helping them use LinkedIn to grow up because it's the platform where business is done. And so if it became somewhere else, would I swap platforms? Yeah, I'm not loyal that much to LinkedIn. I'm loyal to the people that I love to serve and show them, you know, how it could be done. I really like it. I'm glad that

Starting point is 00:26:16 I asked the question. I wish there were more. more people with such a mission or such a purpose behind it. Are you struggling to stay consistent on LinkedIn? Fanpost helps you create high quality posts in minutes, so you can write faster, show up more, and stress way less. Built by creators for creators is the easiest way to grow your presents without burning out. Try it free at fanpost.com. I was just looking at, of course, doing some preparation before our recording.

Starting point is 00:26:48 And as I see a lot of content on LinkedIn, just to kind of touch upon what you discussed before, that it's not always maybe rewarding or you do some work and it doesn't pay off as you wish. Honestly, I have to say that I saw your posts. I think it was about Tim Tem tricks or Tim Tem tips or stuff like that. Yeah, that's it. Tim Tams. It stood out to me so much because it was funny, interesting. It kept me hooked.

Starting point is 00:27:17 I wanted to see what it is and it's this type of post or content that you don't just see on LinkedIn because you all the time see like personal branding tips carousel about this and that motivation, expression. You see it every day. But if there is a piece of content like this, it makes me remember it just stands out and it's different. So it's just to come back to your point that I think you've got amazing content and it definitely stands out from the others. And yeah, it was just some words of the praise because of what you said

Starting point is 00:27:50 before. So you did a really great job. Thank you. Look, I really appreciate it. And for those of you who don't know what a Tim Tam tip is, a Tim Tam is a chocolate biscuit or a cookie, depending where you are in the world, that we have here in Australia and it's chocolatey goodness. And my blood is practically chocolate. I love chocolate. That's one thing you should know about me. But I relate these back to marketing tips every Friday on LinkedIn. I've been doing it for over a year. And why do I do it? Because I want it to stick and be memorable in people's brains. And so the name of the game on LinkedIn right now is how can you create a space in somebody else's brain that they can remember you and recall you when they want to buy something.

Starting point is 00:28:38 So some of my content is about thought leadership and showing that I know my staff and credible and, you know, this is what I talk about. Some of it is so that I can stand out, not for attention's sake, for the sake of it, but so that you can easily in your brain, go to that filing cabinet and go, oh, LinkedIn trainers, who do I know? Oh, Tim Tam tips, Michelle, like, you know, because there's so many people that do what I do. And so finding your own way, whatever your thing is, find your thing that makes you stand out. You know, I've got friends of mine, it might be gardening. I've got others, you know, that do surfing or, you know, like all kinds of different little things. Like, what is it that makes you you that you can share

Starting point is 00:29:20 with other people? We've got dog lovers, cat lovers, like, and it's those little pieces if you think about it. And again, I go back to my account management days. When I would walk into a room and I would meet with someone and it was my job to look after this customer long term, in that first conversation, I'm looking to build rapport with them. What is a, that you and I have in common, what can I find out about you? What is it your favorite sporting team? It could be whereabouts you live? What's the weather like? You know, like, what do you enjoy about your job? How long have you been there? Like all of those little questions are exactly the thing that makes a direct message on LinkedIn, one that gets responded to versus one that just gets, you know,

Starting point is 00:30:05 annoys the person on the other side. So you said it before, slowing things down on LinkedIn, And actually taking time to get to know other people is part of the relationship building, which is where the real magic happens on LinkedIn. And you don't know where it will take you. Like I've had people help me that I never in a million years, you know, I didn't even know that they knew me. And then they reach out and they're like, you know, I had this funniest experience today, Tim Tam tips, right?

Starting point is 00:30:32 You think this is funny. So someone that I don't know very well on LinkedIn, but I'm a first degree connection. They follow my content at some point we got connected. has been following my Tim Tam tips is in an Uber in Chicago talking about LinkedIn and what's going on and me and my Tim Tam tips comes into the conversation and the Uber driver knows who I am. Like if that doesn't blow your mind about the power of being memorable and standing out, like I don't have any other examples that are as good as that. But even I was like, what?

Starting point is 00:31:06 Like really? But that's that magnetism that you can. start to build with relationships when you stand out. And I think if you stand for something as well. So no just blending them in the crowd and agreeing with everything that's being said. Sometimes it's about having a difference of opinions and not being contrarian because you want to start a fight, but just because you are confident in your abilities and your knowledge and that you know that what you're saying is backed by, you know, whether it's further knowledge or whatever it happens to be, but find a way to stand for what you believe in.

Starting point is 00:31:43 And I think that is another secret to success on LinkedIn today. And I think I'm going to be another one who's always from now on, going to remember you when I eat some more biscuits. You can find them in Tescoes and waitros like they're in the UK. I get people who send me photos. They share them with their kids. They are doing Tim Tam slams, which is something that I recommend people try once in their life. I've got people in the US that are out shopping that now see them in Costco

Starting point is 00:32:14 and are going and sending me photos and going, Michelle, I saw these and thought of you. This is the power of branding and marketing, positioning, messaging, all of those things, which I thought were rubbish because I come from a sales background, not a marketing background. I learned the power of them over the last five years and they are the most powerful lessons of finding a way to stand out and be memorable is the secret really to success on LinkedIn. I really like it and it's a great example and a great message too, which brings me actually to the question that I like that I ask. Every guest and especially will be curious to ask you, I think you probably kind of answered it already, but I'm pretty sure that you get a lot of

Starting point is 00:32:59 DMs, people asking you, Michelle, how to grow on LinkedIn, how to go viral, what's your secret? So if you get a message like this or someone ask you for advice, what is it that you usually tell them? Yeah, well, don't come to me if you want to go viral. Like, don't come and ask me that question because LinkedIn is not designed for you to go viral. So those kind of people tend to go and have a look at those stupid automation tools, which are against the LinkedIn user agreement that will give you a viral template. Yay, go, you know, chat, TB, AI, like, yay, you copied somebody else's work. or should I say we're inspired by words I absolutely hate when I hear.

Starting point is 00:33:41 That means you copied somebody else's work. So now you're like a try hard version of somebody else. So, you know, part that to the side. But my secret to success that I think if people want to grow their business or grow their personal brand for whatever reason, I think the secret to success is absolutely build a strong connection and, you know, build strategic connections and build a community. and build a community where you actually care about them and, you know, have empathy for what it's like for the people on the other side. You know, most people when they send DMs are sending

Starting point is 00:34:15 them to try and get something from the person on the other side. Hey, buy my stuff. I've got the world's most amazing product, service widget, like whatever. I'm the best, buy mine. Let's book a meeting. And the person on the other side is just going, really? Like, who are you? What's going on? Stay away from me. You're the 50th person. that's done that to me today. And so slowing things down, get to know people on the other side, support their success, create content that helps them get closer to their KPIs, whether that's making confident buying decisions, whether that is being able to show up in meetings well prepared with new insights, be that person for other people and what goes around comes around. And so that is

Starting point is 00:34:59 why I get people reach out, hey, I spoke with this person. They don't, you know, look after company pages. They said, I should come and talk to you. And that referral part of that networking on LinkedIn is probably the most untapped benefit that people are so focused on what's my hook line on my contents. You know, like how do I write a viral post? Like you don't, go and have some conversations with real people. Like, you know, don't think that the robots are coming to save you. It's the people that you build relationships that will. I completely agree. And I think that people also often forget that if they get a viral post, it usually attracts the people that are not your audience. So what is then the point of attracting large masses of people that

Starting point is 00:35:45 do not know you, don't really care about you? So in the end, is it actually a good thing or not? Yeah. And if you've ever sat down and occasionally I've had a post that's gone to 30, 40,000, you know, and I'm talking maybe once a year or something like that, I don't write content that is designed to do that kind of thing. But when it has happened, I have literally spent 12 hours that day trying to respond to every comment and that I've got better uses of my time in my business because, as you said, they're not from people who are going to work with me. So I've just been busy for a whole day entertaining the wrong audience.

Starting point is 00:36:24 And, you know, that is something that if you were to go through and analyze the people that are commenting on my posts. And I've got a friend of mine that's doing some analytics. right now and she's looking at the types of people that are showing up in my comments. Like who are they? What are the demographics? Like what are the job titles? Whereabouts are they from?

Starting point is 00:36:43 Because that's a surefire way of being able to figure out are the comments on my post legitimate? As opposed to there are some people out there that I've only got comments from third world countries, obviously using, you know, fake accounts, bots, like all that kind of fun stuff. And it's like, you look popular, but you're actually. just a fraud and I love my community on LinkedIn. I think the value of that is priceless to me because they teach me, they support me, they challenge me, they make me better. And I think that is just what I'm most grateful for when it comes to LinkedIn is the people that I've got to meet

Starting point is 00:37:21 all over the world and it's just a gift that I think we take for granted. I agree. And I think or something that I try to remind myself and also tell people, they ask for some kind of advice or something. It's just to have fun when showing up. And I think very important part of that is just to have in the community of the right people, such as, let's be honest, it's not always easy to show up. But if you show up and you know that there are going to be people that you like, that are your friends, that you just have fun with,

Starting point is 00:37:52 it just makes everything easier and more fun to show up. Yeah. And that consistency over the long term, so I say it's like persistency that will get you wins on LinkedIn showing up day after day after day after day. And you're right, have some fun. I know it's LinkedIn, but we're real humans on the other side. Sometimes I do things that, you know, if you've seen my lack of photoshopping skills, like I am terrible at Canva and all that kind of stuff. So I just embrace that and do silly looking things that people just laugh and go, did you really do that? Like, and I'm like, yep, it looks like a five-year-old has, you know,

Starting point is 00:38:29 like put something together. But people laugh at it because they can relate to it because they're wrestling with Canva or, you know, other things like that as well. And I'm not afraid to laugh at myself. I'm not, you know, it just makes me more relatable to other people. I tell them like at the moment there's a post that's, you know, really resonating because I shared like for the last few weeks. I haven't wanted to write a post. There is something that's been going on in my brain that is telling me, nope, I don't want to do it. And it's not because. I don't know how. It's not because I don't know it's important. It's not because I don't have ideas. I've got so much content I could repurpose for the next five years and still not have to create

Starting point is 00:39:11 anything new. But there's something that's been going on. And I've got an idea and I've been thinking about it. But I had to post about it to let other people know, yeah, sure, I've got like, let's call it 27,000 followers right now on LinkedIn. And I post and I am an international speaker. and an author and a podcast host and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I can't write a post on LinkedIn after 10 years. You know, I am human just like everybody else. But like you say, you have to just keep going. And so I do that because I come back to, why do I do this?

Starting point is 00:39:46 Because it's really important to me to help other people grow their business. So people have great jobs and, you know, they have money and they have choices. And when I come back to that, it's easy to post again. And it's something that I think I mentioned before or we discussed before the recording that when there is someone who's willing to share this type of things that are not only how much money you made, how many clients you got or something like that, but also the other side of things that not that many people talk about, that's what in the end resonates with me and makes you stand out and just much more relatable.

Starting point is 00:40:22 And especially if it's from someone whose way ahead, all of us, such as you, because you You are professional. You've got large following and everything. So people maybe might not expect that. But when you share it, it actually resonates a lot. So I'm glad that there is someone like that. Like no one is perfect. You know, if you see people out there that post after post is always landing,

Starting point is 00:40:44 always hitting, always getting, you know, thousands of comments and impressions, it's just not real. You know, like it is not normal. We are not all, you know, gods of LinkedIn. that can write hit after hit after hit. Like that is just not how the platform works. You know, it is something that I just hope that the people that are listening to this podcast or watching the podcast back really are inspired to keep going.

Starting point is 00:41:15 And I say create your digital twin. And what I mean by that is show up on LinkedIn as yourself. If you are someone that is a bit goofy or likes to make people laugh, then do that. If you're sarcastic, do that. Having fun on LinkedIn, we don't just have to be professional. There is more to being a human than being professional at work. And just being yourself is the most powerful thing that you can do. It's also the hardest thing to get used to doing because we hide pieces of ourselves.

Starting point is 00:41:47 And that's what I'm hoping to encourage more people to do is step out and just own who they are. And we talked about authenticity being a word. that's, you know, kind of used in weirdo kind of ways on LinkedIn. And, you know, I think we should reembrace it because it is the real power that every person has got. There's only one person in the world that is you. So please don't try and change that person into a LinkedIn version of yourself, just like everyone else. Absolutely. I only agree. And Michelle, just to be aware of time that we will be finishing soon, there is so much more we could be discussing, but I like to ask kind of lighter questions. So what is it that you like to do in your

Starting point is 00:42:32 free time or what are some of your hobbies? Yeah, look, besides being a chocoholic and absolutely loving chocolate, so to offset that, I then obviously need to get out there and do some exercise, which I, you know, learning to embrace as we go through. Family is really important to me. You know, my partner Lil, you know, my dog or my cat and my garden are my world, you know, for the most part. But when I'm not doing family stuff, you know, we love to travel. So one of my favorite things to do is, you know, travel around the world and experience things that are different to me and what I live in. So, you know, I can't wait to spend more time back in Europe. Can you believe I've never been to London? Like I have not been there. So we need to get that sorted. So if

Starting point is 00:43:20 anyone's listening and needs a speaker to speak in London, I'm ready, like, when you are. But so, yeah, I'd love to do more travel and experience the world. What is your favorite place that you visited and why? I'm going to say Italy is my favorite. I got to do an amazing trip just before COVID kicked in. I got home a few weeks before the world went into lockdown. But the reason being, besides the food, like, of course, the food's one thing. I love the people.

Starting point is 00:43:48 I love that they talk. I'm a talker. You know, I'm sure your listeners are shocked at that. But, you know, I just love friendly people. And I love people that are willing when you're standing on the street or, you know, you walk up to the coffee bar and stand there and have a coffee with someone, you know, and that kind of, yeah, the community-based kind of places I like. So there are other places who don't really do chit chat.

Starting point is 00:44:11 Like, you know, so I'm the person, if you're at a bus stop or you're stuck next to me on a plane, I will talk to you. So I'm just warning people. So I find it tricky in countries like I love my friends in Denmark, but they don't do chit chat. And I find that really tricky because I think, why don't they like me? So it's just, you know, part of getting to know what cultures do around the world. But yeah, shout out to my friends in Denmark.

Starting point is 00:44:37 And, you know, I've got a lot there after speaking there a couple of times. But it's things like that that you realize the world we're also different. And on LinkedIn, you know, one of the most amazing things I've worked with. people in 24 different countries. I'm a better person for having learned from them, you know, some of the cultural things that impact people's time on LinkedIn. Yeah, it's been pretty amazing. So, you know, here we are today. I like it. I always like when there's someone positive who lifts up the room and just makes more friendly and welcoming an environment. So I'm glad that there is someone like that. I actually got invited by someone who wanted me based on my LinkedIn

Starting point is 00:45:18 Post to come and work for them. And basically my job title was going to be Sunshine Officer. I was only meant to go in there and just uplift the whole place and make people feel better. So it's kind of like my dog is that kind of dog as well. It's like, hi, here I am.

Starting point is 00:45:34 Let's all have fun. So yeah, sorry, I digress. But you just made me think of something. That's the impact that you can have on other people. And it's kind of cool. It's my favorite title. I will remember it. Yeah. Then Michelle, we discussed everything and there is so much we didn't have time to discuss.

Starting point is 00:45:52 But can you summarize where people can find you, follow you and promote any of your services? Yeah, look, I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn. No surprises there. Michelle J. Raymond, as we discussed at the beginning of the show is where you'll find me. If you come across there, like I have a great newsletter that I share so much cool stuff that will help you get more out of LinkedIn, which is tied back to my podcast. which is called social media for B2B growth podcast. So if you enjoyed this podcast and I've got space for one more on your player,

Starting point is 00:46:26 I would really love for you to come and check it out because I don't know about you, but podcast listeners are the best because they're super loyal. They know what you like. And when they actually connect with you on LinkedIn, it's like meeting an old friend. They tend to know you. They're like, it can repeat back everything that you've ever said. And I really appreciate that.

Starting point is 00:46:46 So as somebody that doesn't listen to podcasts, themselves. I just love the power of podcasting. It's just the best gift. So, yeah. Me too. And it's a shame we didn't have time to discuss podcasting, but I didn't know that we could be discussing that for at least the whole hour. But Michelle, you haven't mentioned your books. Can you tell people where they can buy them as well? Because it's really impressive that you've written books. Yeah, thank you. As I said, I've written the world's first and only book on LinkedIn company pages. So if you're a new company page admin and not sure where to start, it's called business gold. Again, it comes to my profile.

Starting point is 00:47:22 The links will be there. But also the second one is called the LinkedIn branding book. So it is about basically how do you use LinkedIn to build a business and a personal brand together for better results? And it ties back to our podcast that we do as well. But ultimately, it's about my journey of getting started, what I wish I'd known. and the same with my co-author Michelle Griffin. So the two Michelle's, you know, we basically wrote the book that we wish we had when we got started on LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:47:53 And so it comes with a brand workbook, which will really help you get clarity around how you want to show up on LinkedIn, which is really important work to do long before you start posting or commenting or taking those other actions. So thank you for the reminder. They're both on Amazon. You can always find them. But again, send me a direct message. I'm always happy to share the links, but they're designed to help people that are starting out

Starting point is 00:48:17 because, yeah, they're just the resources I wish I had instead of making so many costly mistakes. Yeah, I can relate to that. And as always, I will add any links to the show notes. And then very last question, is there anything that I should have asked to you and did not or any final message or piece of advice or anything you would like to share before we finish? Yeah, the one last thing that I'll leave your listeners, with is no matter how many times you see a post on LinkedIn or read it in some or hear it anywhere, company pages on LinkedIn are not a waste of time. So they have a very different part

Starting point is 00:48:57 to play compared to your profile. But if you have a business, you need a LinkedIn company page. And the best part is if you use it together with your personal profile, i.e. the power of two is what I call that, then you'll get better results than just using one alone. And there's lots of cool reasons to use it, but I won't go into those today, but just ask the question, how can I use this page to help me grow my business? And when you look at it from that angle, you'll find a lot of different ways that it can be used. I like it. I encourage people to follow you and check out all the resources because we've been talking almost for one hour. And I know that We haven't discussed podcasting, your books and LinkedIn pages, but I enjoyed the conversation

Starting point is 00:49:46 we had so much that I think maybe we should do sequel in the future or something. I'm always up for it. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, look, it's been my pleasure. Loads of amazing takeaways for me. I like your mindset. I love your positivity. So thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:50:02 I will keep in touch and I wish you all the best on your journey. Thank you. Likewise. And cheers to coming back for the sequel. Just, you know where to find me. let's make it happen because as you've discovered, I could talk about this stuff all day. So if it can help other people out there, yeah, let's make it happen.

Produced By - The Human Advantage: Building Brands With Intention and Heart | 125: Michelle J Raymond

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