The Podcast Pioneer: 20 Years of Lessons in Creating, Teaching and Building Tools | #114: Colin Gray
00:00it's a really good thing to keep your mind on.Even if you're writing a LinkedIn post, writing a blog post, recording a podcast,creating a video, when you speak, you'll come out with great stuff.You'll come out with really good things.And sometimes they are things that you can turn into something kind of protectable,almost, something we can say, this is something that I came up with.This is something unique.It's my unique angle on this.
00:20And it's quite easy to let it just go because you just speak it and then you move on.But actually trying to keep track of those, whether it's you literally pause the recordingand say, right, that was good actually.I need to make something out of that. I need to turn that into a phrase there. I need to turn thatinto a LinkedIn post. I need to turn it into a short video. And all of that formulating, taking that onepoint that you came up with on the fly, turning it into those other elements, solidifies it,it refines it. It creates something that you can then be one of your unique points. As contentcreators, that's what we're looking to do is to have these two, three, four, five, ten things that are
00:53your unique takes that you can then sell to people to come in their show. This is how you get to be apodcast guest.Before we dive into today's episode, please hit that subscribe button.Your support helps us grow and inspire more people on their journeys.Thank you.Hello, Colin.Thank you for Jinnanath today and welcome to the show.Hey, thanks for having me.
01:16It's a pleasure.So, Colin, I always start with the introduction of people and I'm especially excited to askyou because as I've been reading more about yourself from your biography on the podcasthost, a fun.out that you've done many roles, many excited things. So please, can you introduce yourself to our audience?Yeah, sure. I mean, the short story is I used to work in higher education. So I taught at a university in Edinburgh and Scotland.And my subject was technology enhanced learning, which is a tongue-twister way of saying at all lecturers how to use technology to teach, essentially.So it's kind of teaching how to teach, but with technology particularly. And that's kind of how I got into.
01:59of podcasting because one of those technologies that came along back in 2006, 7,8 was podcasting.And I was asked actually to look into it by my boss.And it was the best thing that ever happened because that was just when I kind of fell in lovewith the medium.I just, I loved the, you know, the personality that comes across the in-depth content,but the fact that it was actually still so easy to create as well.So I just dropped right into that rabbit hole and just started writing about podcasting somuch. I created podcasts. I wrote about it. And over the next five years or so, between about
02:322010 and 2015, that blog that I was writing became the kernel of the business that I run today.That blog started gaining some traction. We earned some money through some sponsorship, some affiliaterevenue, that kind of stuff. We grew a good audience around it, people who are creating a podcast.And that was, yeah, like I say, that's the kernel of the business. From there, really,that blog still exists. So we still maintain that. We still put out.tons of content on how to run a podcast. But then again, that's that's over at thepodcasthost.com.But then that kind of spun out a software product as well, because one of the biggest thingspeople always asked us about was how to make editing easier. So we or I kind of endeavored to
03:14try and create something that makes that a lot simpler. And that's what became Alatu. So Alatu is ourpodcast maker app, which is call recording, audio editing, audio cleanup and audio publishing to helppeople make their show from start to finish. So these days, really, through all of that,these days I run a content company, which puts out tons of content about podcasting and asoftware company, which provides the tools to make podcasting easier.And just to double check or remind us of, you said that it was year 2006, right?I think it was, I never remember exactly. I think it was about 2007 when I first started playingaround with podcasting, yeah. I mean, even if it's 2006 or seven, I just want to emphasize how
03:54Long ago it is because back then I had literally no idea.So I could not imagine back then what was it like?So when you discovered it, what was like the scene where there already?Any podcasts, any resources or how did you hear about it at all?Well, the funny thing, as I heard about it, my first ever podcast,I actually got on the cover disk of a computer web design magazine.So it wasn't technically a podcast because it wasn't by an RSS.feed, I didn't download it from the internet, it came on a disc, a hardcover disc on a hard
04:30printed magazine.That's a nostalgia, isn't it?Yeah, totally.So they included, it's a great marketing tactic actually, they included five episodes, justthe MP3 files on that cover disc.I found them, I listened to them, I thought it was brilliant.This like show of two guys, it was the Boag World podcast, which was two guys talking aboutweb design.
04:50And that was kind of what I missed around with a lot at the time.and I listened to it and I thoughtthis is so goodit's two guys just having a conversationa really nerdy conversationabout a thing that I'm really into as welland I was like I need to get in on thisso that's when I went out
05:03and I bought a little MP3 playerone of those little USB stick onesyou plug into your computerbut it plugs a set of headphoneson the other endand the sceneI mean it was it was very techyback in those days
05:16it was definitely very mail heavyit was definitely a lot of verytechnologicallytechnically kind ofleaning podcast because that wasreally, it was a very technical thing to actually createand release at the time as well.So yeah, it was much less accessible
05:32than it is nowadays and much less diverse as well.Would you back then imaginewhat the podcasting scene is going to be likein the future? No, but even close.No, even close. I kind of always thought it would just bethis niche little hobby, you know,this kind of alternative to radio somehow.But yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing what
05:51become. And it might be early to ask this question,our recording, but as we are discussing that,what do you think is the future of podcasting?Oh, I mean, we think about this all the time.And I think, do you know what, I would normally give you,I can give you a couple of answers of what I think, but the honest answer rightnow is I've never been as uncertain, ever as I am right now.You know, I think there's so much up in the air right now around content,
06:17digital content in particular, the future of the internet, the future of media,all of those things I think are more uncertain right now than I think they ever have been.And potentially we all think that every year.You know, like every generation thinks this is the worst or the best or the most complex, whatever it is.But I think right now it's a really, really tricky time.I'm happy to give you some guesses, if you like.Yeah, of course.I'm curious to hear.
06:43I mean, I think there's podcasting and video in a way as well, both really are two of the moredefensible content styles. I think we are more insulated from the AI kind of onslaught.That was actually my next question about AI as well, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, AI is completelydisrupting written content, social media content, all of that kind of stuff. But it's harderto duplicate audio and video in an authentic way. You can do it, but actually making it sound like areal human is trickier. It's much harder to, and with podcasting in particular, a conversation like we'rehaving just now that might be over a whole hour, it's much harder to make that sound authentic,genuine, over a whole hour, and actually to include enough real humanisms, you know,
07:31little things that just, you know, make it obvious that we are real people. And by all means,I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm sure AI will be able to do that at some point, but I thinkwe are more defensible than most. And as content online, particularly written content, becomes moreand more AI-ified. We're less and less certain whether whatever we're reading is AI or not.We might even care less. I think people will still want to connect with real humans inaudio four. It's always been the power of podcasting is the fact that you feel that you connectwith people. You connect with their personality, their background, their humor, their values,all of those things that come across in voice and particularly over long periods of time,
08:15which is why I think it's a bit different from video too.the fact that people give you an hour, two hours, three hours worth of attention in audio,because you're doing something else at the same time.You know, you're driving, you're washing dishes, whatever it is.So I think that combination of things means that podcasting might be the last bastion of human content.Good news for us.Yes.Yeah, yeah.
08:38But I agree with you because I think that podcasting is only going to grow and just going to get bigger.But as you said, I also think and maybe.bit afraid about the impacts of AI.As you mentioned, it's alreadyimpacted a lot, whether it's written contentor, for example, even YouTubewith any videos. ButI came across a few
08:59podcasts that were AI generated. I wouldn'tlisten to it, but for example, Iremember one, and I think it wasbetween Joe Rogan and SteveJobs, which obviouslyis like a conversation that cannotreally happen. I think I listen to it,but I think it's like a special case
09:15out of curiosity. ButI agree with what you said that it's a bit uncertain and I'm glad to hear and I kind of agree that we are a bit safer because you are building kind of relationship with your audience and if the audience knows you like from many episodes I think that on top of the content they also listen to because it's you and you've got some kind of relationship it's like if I imagine the podcast guest that I like and I listen to I listen to them because I like them because I feel like that I know them.So that will be my take.And yes, let's hope that we are kind of safer.Indeed.Are you thinking much about that in terms of the written content?Because obviously one of your big areas is LinkedIn.So written content on LinkedIn.
09:59Does it mean you're posting more video on LinkedIn,more podcast clips?Or are you just thinking about the written content differently?I do both.So I definitely post videos because I think you know what it's liketo smartly repurpose the contentbecause it will be a shame to record the episode and don't smartly repurpose it.But my content strategy is to use like different formats.
10:25So I like to post videos because you never know how it's going to perform.Sometimes LinkedIn likes videos, so it pushes videos.The other times it doesn't like it.So I feel like it's good to use different types of posts.And also because I cut the videos that I then share, for example, on YouTube for YouTube shortsor Instagram forios, I feel like that once I have the content, it will be shame not to post it on LinkedIn.And at the same time, I like to play with written content as well, because I just enjoy being creative.I like to have fun with writing the copy.
11:01I'm not going to lie.Of course, I use AI such as JGPT or fan post or something like that.But I would say it's never copy and paste and try to keep it somehow tailored, customized.it for help but not as replacement.Yeah, yeah, agreed.Yeah, exactly that.I'm using it as an assistant a lot with my podcasting.So it's a very big planning tool, really.
11:25It helps me make ideas better.Like it helps me come up with the kind of base ideasand I'll develop it a little bit.I'll put it back in for more feedback.We'll work back.It's like having a really, just an assistantthat isn't necessarily that creativebut can come up with tons of different variations of things,
11:41which then help you be more creative.I think that's a lot of how I'm seeing it.But I'm very rarely, if ever, letting it create what I think is nearly a final product.It's always some editing at the end, at least.If not, actually, it's just the idea.And then I create the whole thing from there.And I think, let's be honest that if it was just copy and paste or letting it to create content for you,I think that the people who use AI as well or know the tools, they would recognize that it's not really you,
12:11but it's just that.And if you don't mind sharing,do you want to share any of your favorite toolsor any tools that you use regularly?Yeah, for sure.I mean, tons, particularly.Like, what areas do you think are most useful?Like, do you mean for podcasting, creation, video creation?
12:26Are you talking to AI just now?Or what do you think?I assume that for podcasting, it's going to be a little.Well, yeah, so, yeah.I mean, so yeah, we have our own podcast creation toolality, of course,which helps.So I do my recording and I do my editing in there,and we host and publish in there too.
12:43But alongside that, there's a few different things.Do you know, I've kind of, I was using a lot of clipping tools to try and do a bit of clippingso to take an hour long episode like this one and take 60 minutes, 60 seconds, sorry,120 seconds clips, whatever it might be.I found they've just not got very good yet.And they really struggle to find like good parts.And even if I find some that kind of picked out a decent little bit, I'll end up editing it tons.So actually, the tool I'm really.
13:11you zoom most for that kind of thing right now is actuallyPhilMora. So have you come acrossa video editing tool called PhilMora?I heard of it, but I haven'ttried it. It's a great little toolactually. And the way that I'm using it isI'll take a 60 minute interviewlet's say, take an hour long interview.
13:27I'll bring it out of Alatu and I'll pop itinto PhilMora and thenI'll actually just skim throughI'll get the transcription, all that kind of stuff.I'll actually use AI at that point toget the transcript and pick outgood points, get some ideas.But actually also while I've been recording, I'll have a notepad next to me and I'll note down little things that I think as we're recording were good takeaways.
13:49So I'll try and keep my mind on.You know, what are the highlights in this?And I find with a bit of practice, I've been able to do that pretty well.Very well, actually, without kind of distracting me from the recording.That's the danger.If you're thinking about something else while recording, it can be distracting.But if that's my only job, yeah.If that's my only job, though, is just to think of two, three, four parts, which are,
14:10I think, oh, that was a good little snippet there.I'll note it down.And actually, I'll go into Philmore.I'll skip to the time code that I've noted down and I'll watch it.But then I'll actually record it myself separately.I won't use that clip.Oh, really?Yeah.
14:24Because I find it's more time consuming to try and edit a clip from the big recordingthan just to record and just to speak for 60 seconds.You know, this is what we're good at.We're good at speaking because we're podcasters.So actually, as long as I know that point,Often I don't actually even have to watch a clip.I just use my note and I'll remember.So I'll just sit down straight after the recording
14:46and I'll record four, five, six clips,60 seconds at a time, straight into Falmora,just through my good camera with the mic, the lighting on,so it all looks good.And I can make sure I include a good hook.I can make sure I include a great first 10 seconds.I can make sure I end with a little call to action as well.All of these things are never included in those, you know,
15:06auto-clipped parts.That is really smart and I have a done.it this way. It's just I'm finding it way quicker to do it that way and actually the resultsare way better like the content itself is way better and I'll just do that straight andFillmore. Fulmora is good for a recording from a webcam as well which is why I'm enjoying itand then on top of that it does great subtitles, great little effects you can really easily add a bitof pizzazz you know some nice titles stickers that kind of thing so yeah it's good for thatand then I would be curious to ask you I understand that it's not probably that easy but
15:37why haven't you created such a feature inside of Alitu?Oh, it's been on the roadmap. It is on the roadmap.But we've kind of put it off because, like I say, most of the tools,most of the competitors that I see doing that, the clipping,I just don't think it's that good.Like I said, I think we would struggle to make somethingthat is actually super effective and creates great content.And I think there might even be something that we build in in future
16:02more around this workflow that I'm talking about, like Benilta.One thing we're working on in there is an A.AI assistant that actually knows your content and can delve into the content. So I could see a world wherepeople have just finished their recording. They hit stop and then they go back to the kind of dashboard.And then the assistant there says, great recording. Here's a couple of things I recommend.I've looked at the transcript here were four or five highlights. I think were absolutely brilliant.I would recommend that you could try and clip them if you want, but equally hit the record buttonhere and you can record directly in Talent to a 60 second clip and I'll just create it for you
16:36immediately. So I do think that's a better approach. But on the other hand, you know, people arelooking for those auto-clipping tools. So yeah, maybe maybe one day. Yeah, but I like the idea.And I think he raised a great point because of course there are many tools like that. And I thinkthat they are often advertised as get top clips in a few seconds, in a few clicks, which mightbe true. You get those clips in a few seconds. But then as you said, the question is, arethose clips actually the best ones?Are those actually the ones that you want?So although people say
17:12you can have it in a few seconds,I'm not going to lie, I don't do it that wayeither. What I do is that I gothrough the recording because thenI know what I want to show.Maybe AI can pick somethinggood, but is it something that Iwant that I think that is going to
17:28resonate with my audienceand the message that I actually want to share?I guess it's up to everyoneto decide. Yeah. I think. Ithink there's a lot around the clips that work actually it depends a lot on it depends a lot onthe mannerisms and the voice the tone of voice the pacing all of those things like it depends a loton like how you hear the person how you come across during that clip is you can't get that justfrom the transcript which is where i'm looking tips are using so yeah i mean that's the
17:58trouble though isn't it it's time consuming to listen through an hour long interview and pick outthe good bits is really tricky so so i've found thatthat a decent middle ground is that just kind of trying to note down a few good ones as I'm goingor even sometimes I don't note it down and I just think back. I finish recording and immediatelyI think right what's a couple of things we talked about there. I remember we talked about thatthat and that there are three good subjects. Let's record those and that works. Yeah I agree and it'salso why I or at least still do it by myself, the editing and everything because I'm the one whodid it. I'm the one who remembers those parts and I'm the one who knows like what we're
18:36the most impactful and the bits that I flagged it will resonate the most if that makes sense.Yeah, definitely.And speaking of Alitu, the question that I was curious about, I actually haven't found it online,is what's the reason behind the title, Alitu?It's no, it's actually no, it doesn't have any meaning.It was just a site I bought back in about 2005, 2006 as a little project.and it was a business directory called Alatu.So that was, they worked quite well back in those days.
19:10I earned like a few hundred dollars a month off that for about a year or two.And then Google killed it with one of its usual updates.So I shut that site down, but I kept the domain.And actually then when we were creating the software product,we were looking for a name, thinking about a name,trying to think about a good domain.And you know, a five-letter domain is really valuable.And especially starting with A.
19:32So it's a...I never even considered.I've uttered that at the time, but you're absolutely right, yes.Yeah, maybe that's why they called their directory, Aletukes.It was top of the directory listings.That is true.And is there a reason behind the logo?To me, it looks like a little alien.
19:49So is there a reason behind it?Yeah, it was a little robot.So it was meant to be an idea.Oh, sorry, robot.You're correct.Yeah, no, but I mean, I get why it's kind of a little antenna.But the idea was that it was a little robot, which would be your friend, your companion.was before ahead of AI really like this was 19, 2017, 2018. So it was ahead of the kind of chat
20:10GPT kind of mania and everything. So it was it was meant to be and there is AI built in therelike machine learning type stuff, audio cleanup, all that kind of thing. So it was really justmeant to be your little assistant to help you produce your podcast at the time. The idea was thatit would automate a lot of what people do, the kind of rope tasks. So like adding your theme music,doing the little transitions between clips, the audio cleanup, things like that,there was all these things that I was doing every day to produce a podcast that it was justthe same thing every single time.And while there is some knowledge and skill to doing it really, really well, like as an audio
20:49engineer producing like a Hollywood film or something like that, yes, absolutely.Like there's a real craft in there.As podcasters, we just don't need that much variance because it's just voice.It's always just voice.And yes, there's differences.And yes, you would get more control and last 20% of polish if you do it all by yourself.But you can get 80, 90% of the quality in a completely automated fashion.And nowadays, actually, you can get nearly 100% of the quality, better quality than most of us doing it manually, to be honest.
21:20So that was the idea, yeah, a little assistant that helped you do it all.I like it.And I think it might become more helpful or relevant in the future with the rise of AI.Although it was unintended, you never know.Yes, indeed.But I was also thinking that it might be some, since it's a robot, or as I said, wrong beforealien, it might be somehow related to you when you were younger and wanted to become astrophysicist.Because to me, it sounds a bit like space-like, but I guess I'm wrong about this theory.
21:52Yeah, I'm afraid so.But yeah, I can make that.Maybe that's the part of the story.I've always thought maybe I should make up a story that explains it more effect or moreand artistically.No, it sounds good.I was just, it was a little bridgebecause when I was reading more about yourself
22:10and I read that you wanted to become astrophysicist,difficult work.What is it actually that you wanted to,because I'm not going to lie,I don't know anyone who does thatand I wouldn't really expect that.So what was it that you wanted to becomeby studying this or wanting to become this?
22:29I mean, I was the kid that never grew outof wanting to be an astronaut.Every five-year-old boy, every 10-year-old boy even wants to be an astronaut,but even by the time I was 16, I still wanted to do it.And I went to uni and I signed up to astrophysics,because that's the standard way to get into NASA or the ESA.I went and applied to the RAF to be like a RAF flight cadet and stuff like that.There was a few things meant I couldn't, like, my eyes aren't good.
22:57My eyesight's not good enough, sadly, to be a fighter pilot in theend. It might have held me about from being an astronaut too, but the alternative route is to be ascientist is to actually be a proper astrophysicist and you still sometimes get to go to space,even if you need glasses. So, yeah, that was me. I went and did that. And the backup, obviously,that's a kind of high bar. The backup was just, I was just really interested in space in the waythe world works. I was really interested in physics. It was always my favorite subject at school.If there's one skill in life that I have, it's that I'm better, maybe if there'sone thing that I'm better than average at, it's just
23:33weeding out problems and figuring out how to fix them, basically.It's problem solving. I don't know that's kind of a general skill, butit's the kind of skill that's very useful in running a business andthe kind of stuff we do, I think. No, I think it's a great skill, and I agree with youbecause one of the things that I was curious about before was why or how youstarted a little. But as you mentioned before, and also as I read more aboutyourself. I like the approach that you just build a tool by yourself because to me it soundskind of impossible because it's not just like that or I'm going to build a tool. But you actually
24:09did it. It's still around. It's amazing tool and you still keep growing that. So to me it soundsamazing. Thank you. Thank you. I mean it is funny because it's and this is kind of what I try toteach to the people that come along and consume our content or our Allato users or podcast consumers,YouTube watchers, whoever it is.Like, it's kind of, the creator journey I've been through is actually one that I thinka lot of people could emulate quite easily, but it just takes a while.And what I mean by that is I kind of almost accidentally grew an audience, like I said,in the early days.
24:45So I just started writing.I just started creating podcasts.And I just did it every couple of weeks for two or three years.I didn't even do it that regularly.I took breaks.I can't claim to be one of those, like, super consistent every single week.Didn't this a week. But over two or three years, I learned the craft. I got better at it.People found me. I adapted based on the questions they were asking. I think one of the really
25:07important things I did, which led to everything we do now was I set up a way, a really easy way forpeople to contact me and to give me feedback and to get information. Probably the most importantpart of all that was the fact that I set up a mailing list. When people signed up, the first email they gotfrom me from after signing up for that mailing list was one line which said,what are you struggling with just now? With podcasting, obviously, not in general life. And thestuff I got back from that. So people would find the content. They would end up subscribing tothe newsletter. They would get that question from me and they would send back their answer.And that powered everything that I did. Like it powered nearly all of the content. I would,
25:51all the content I created was to answer the questions I got from that. All of the courses andservices we created were to solve the problems that people sent through. And Alitu came out of thatas well because probably three quarters of the responses to that question were, how do I make editingsimpler? You know, like how do I, how do I make it eat? What the hell is EQ and compression andnoise reduction? How do I do all these things? I don't want to be an audio engineer. I just want tospeak. How do I get better at print? You know, how do I get all of these things? And I thought, do you know what,We need to try and build something to fix this.I've created all the educational stuff I can to try and help them with it.
26:31But at the end of the day, a lot of people just don't want to learn how to do it.They actually just want a lot of it taking care of.And that was, again, that was why Alatu came up, because I said, I'm sure we can automate a lot of this,particularly for the people that really don't care about the last, you know, 5% of polish.They just want it to sound good and get it out there in the world.Just give me the solution.Yeah, totally.Yeah.
26:53So, I mean, that journey is.I think replicable and it's shown across like the creator world like you build an audienceand then you create a product to actually solve core problems that that audience have butyou have to weed out those problems in the first place and that's kind of where it all camefrom I think it's super smart because you are helping people you are growing your email listor your subscribers and at the same time then you've got content or insight that you can work withto give people the solution.And once you've got the solution,
27:28you've got those people with the problem.I think it's genius.Thank you.A little bit genius, but yeah,it worked well for us, certainly.Are you struggling to stay consistent on LinkedIn?Fan post helps you createhigh-quality posts in minutes
27:44so you can write faster,show up more, and stress way less.Built by creators, for creators.It's the easiest way to grow your presencewithout burning out. Try it free at fanpost.com.And this is like super big coincidence and I'm not going to lie, but when I was about to startpodcasting, it's been a bit more than two years, which compared to your journey, I know it's nothing,but when I celebrated two years, I feel like, oh my God, it's a long time.
28:14But I remember, of course, I didn't really know how to do that, although I've been listeningto a few podcasts. I still was like, oh, what am I going to?to do with this or that.So by Googling,I remember that one of the articles that I foundabout how to start podcastingand basically the basics,what to do,
28:33was actually from the podcast host.I remember reading the article,I don't know,basics or how to start,and I would never expectthat two years afterwe will be having this conversation.So it's like a beautiful loop
28:50that just happened in now.So just going to say,I'm glad.and amazing work. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm glad you found it. Yeah,that article we've always, that has always been one of our biggest searches,how to start our podcast. It's one of the biggest, you know, SEO targets in our space.It's one of the highest volume searches out there. It's the one that a lot of peoplecompete for. And we were always kind of top one to three for years and years. And yeah,
29:15I would absolutely love to know. It's sometimes I think like it would be so good to knowhow many of the biggest podcasters nowadays,like some of the huge ones that started out,you know, five, six years agomight have read our article as part of getting to theirlike one million plus subscribers or whatever it is.So yeah, that'd be cool.That is true, yeah.
29:33And if they are listening to this or we'll be listening in the future,make sure to let us know until the COVID-Nadillo.And, Corrinas, we've been discussing what you do,your podcast, Ali to or podcast or anything else.I know that it's going to differ, but would you be able to describe what your day looks likeif it's more working on Alitu, on your podcast, makes, or it's completely different?Yeah, good question.I think, I mean, an average, well, I could describe today, to be fair, let's take that as an example,
30:07probably a relatively average day.First thing, actually, I got in today, and I had a meeting around, I had a meeting with our team,so I had a meeting with our head of growth, Jacob, our head of content, Matthew, and headof engineering brand because we're talking about how to adapt our content for the new world,like the future of media at the moment. Like you said, we have always published on the podcasthost in the past. That has been our core brand for content. That's been our teaching brand,our education, our trust builder. And we've grown Alatu and our courses and our servicesand our coaching and all that kind of stuff through attracting people through those blog posts
30:43and the podcast and YouTube channel that go along with it. These days, like it is,tricky because we've lost a fair chunk of traffic to that site, partially throughchanging trends, a lot through AI search, I believe, as well. And we're still doing fine.We're doing a lot better than a lot people have over the last few years. There's so many siteshave literally gone to zero over the last couple of years in terms of organic search.And we've survived a lot better than most. But still, we can see a kind of downward trends.We're talking about different ways to do it. One of which is actually concentrating moreon the product on Alitu because Alitu is the more kind of defensible solution. So education and
31:19coaching and things are becoming potentially less valuable because it's so easy to get coaching andteaching via AI. But the tools that we've built are much more defensible. So we had a whole meetingthis morning an hour or so just planning out how we'll actually create more content for Alitu.How will change things over to that more, maybe even change the branding a little bit so that ourcontent, our podcast host content or our podcast or our YouTube channel is more targeted towardsAlatu. So that was the start of the day. So it's like it goes from big strategic stuff like that,actually changing the whole direction of the company in some ways to straight after that,I just started editing a video. So I spent about an hour or so finishing up an interview.
32:01I recorded an interview a couple of days ago with Matthew, my co-host. We got a guy on and oneof our audience was on for coaching. So we just talked him through a few problems. It's really fun.He just asked us a bunch of questionsand we just answered and coached him through a few things.So it was a great episode.I wanted to put that out as a video episode.So I spent about half an hour creating an intro to it.So like picking out some clips like we were talking about earlier
32:23and putting them at the start, making a little highlight reelto really draw people in.So that was another thing.I spent another half hour making an alitue ad for that as well.And then the afternoon has been more about calls.So it's been talking to you,doing interviews like this.And another couple of calls with my team as well.
32:39just kind of catch-ups and stuff like that.So that's quite an average day.And other days might include, instead of like that video editing,I'll have activities like spending a couple of hours on creating some LinkedIn content.So I'm working a fair bit on LinkedIn as well just now trying to develop that.And our newsletters as well, our newsletters are a really big focus just now,like really trying to figure out how to create a newsletter that really engages people over the next few years.because I think that's changing hugely as well.
33:09How do we actually get people to read, to click, to take action on it as well?So yeah, that's kind of a, it would be a rundown.Does that help?It does, of course.I think just as you mentioned a newsletter, because before we talked about AI,I think that the newsletter is still something that is and will be important and relevant in the future,because, for example, when it comes to social media, you may lose access or something,but if people give you their email addresses,
33:37you kind of have them forever unless they subscribeand they give you access to their inboxes every week or regularly.So just as you mention it, I think it's a great stepand something that I wish I focused more on earlier as well.Yeah, it's always the thing that is the one thing that everyone saysthey wish they'd started earlier is gathering those email addresses.And it goes so well alongside a podcast as wellbecause the podcast develops that relationship with people,
34:04but they have to come and find you generally.They have to open up their appand go and look for your podcast.But a newsletter, you know, you're pushing to them.You can remind them a new episodes out.You can send them the links.That's the one downside of podcastingis that actually getting people to take action
34:17because you can say a link,but you have to then wait for themto get to their computer or their phoneand open it up.But with the newsletter,you can then follow upand actually give them that action.So yeah, it works so nicely alongside a podcast.
34:29That is true.And another point, you mentioned LinkedIn.So before discussing more of LinkedIn, what are like the main social media channels that you focus on or that you feel like are the most important, the most relevant when it comes to the podcasting?We have very kind of stringently cut any social media over the, like, well, limited our time on social media over the years.I've always been a huge advocate of evergreen content.So blog postsI mean our whole business is built around written contentblog posts that just stick around forever
35:06writing something that is going to be there foreverand still be relevant in a couple of years timemaybe we're you know we're updating things every year or sobut even so it's just a little update and it'll hang around for a long timeso writing a tweet or writing a or creating a TikTok videothat disappears like 20 minutes later is always just anathema to meI just hate that but the one place where I have foundmaybe more longevity is actually LinkedIn more recently. So that's why I've kind of gone a lot more
35:36into LinkedIn because I feel like the conversations are deeper. The posts actually get a muchlonger shelf life, like they stick around for a few weeks at least, if not longer. And I just thinkthat people are much more there in a space to actually take action on things as well. I see much moreconversion on posts too. So that's why I've got more intellect. Does that reflect your kind of view onLinkedIn. Obviously it's a big part of your teaching. Like, how do you see it? I'm obviously going to bebiased because as you discussed, although I tried to, since I've got a content, I try to push it toother platforms as well, but still for me, the LinkedIn is the primary one. I agree with what you said.And I think it's just a powerful platform because it's no longer that boring corporate platform like
36:24like it used to be before, I used to have such opinion as well.But I now see just that there is such big potentialbecause you can literally connect with people from all around the worlddifferent type of positions, for example, someoneon the ladder, someone lower or completely different industries.So I think there is a big potential.Of course there are like always different trends, waves.People have excuses when it comes to algorithm
36:54and there is always nothing different that LinkedIn pushes.But still, I see there a potential.I remember when I started there or started to take it more seriously,it used to be different that now there are more people.I think it's more focused on personal branding.I think in the future it's only going to grow.And one of the things that always comes to my mindis like a comparison of people that use LinkedIn
37:17compared to other platforms and then the people who actively post.So I think the number of people who actively use LinkedIn is much lower than compared to other platforms.And the number of people who post actively is even lower.So I think it just perfectly shows how big potential there is because people often say,the sentence that I said before, I wish I started earlier.But as you well pointed out, I think it's never late to start.And I think that these statistics show that it's never too late.So just go there, start posting, figure it out along the way.
37:55And you'll see in the future how it grows and how it goes.Yeah.I love that, that phrase, what is it?When is the best time to start your podcast?Well, five years ago, but if it's not five years ago, then today.Same LinkedIn.Best time to start your LinkedIn three years ago.If not then, then today.
38:12Because I had the same thoughts before when I was starting my podcast.Of course, I've been listening to many podcasts already.And I was like, am I late?Am I going to start?And now it's like two years later and I'm grateful that I did because it's been such long time.There is so much to learn.But I think it just perfectly showcases that it's never late to start.Yeah, for sure.
38:37Absolutely.And some of the podcast-related questions, what are calling some of your favorite podcastthat you listen to?Once I listen to, I listen to quite niche ones around often by friends, actually, just to kind ofkeep up with them almost.Generally, it's about running a business.Like, for example, Craig Hewitt of Castos is a good friend of mine.He runs one called Rogue Startups, and I listen to that one a lot,
39:00just because I think I catch up with Craig and talk to him quite a lot.But actually, I always like listening to his little update on his podcast as well.So shows like that, I really enjoy.For fun, actually, I listen to a few kind of audio drama type things.I'm quite into audio drama.So welcome to The Magic Tavern is a real favorite of mine,because it's just improvised nonsense.It's just silliness. Three guys who are all good friends, I think, just talking, making things up as they go along and it's just hilarious.
39:26So, yeah, stuff like that. That's my kind of mix. It's either really kind of specific around how to run a business or maybe some specific aspects of marketing and then over to complete silliness over on the other side to relax.So it's important to have fine and something for entertainment as well.For sure. What be yourself? What's your top kind of work-related shows just now? Any tips you have for me?For me, it's probably going to sound a bit more mainstream, but I'm a big fan of podcast Modern Wisdom,because I just like Chris Williamson.I think he's great the way he asks question, the way he builds relationship with his guests.He's also very consistent, high-quality guests.So it's like kind of a motivation for me, I would say.
40:11Cool. Okay. Perfect.And I was about to ask you, what's your favorite part of podcast?such as what do you enjoy the most about it?Oh, good question.I mean, I do love teaching.I always have.It's my background teaching,putting stuff out there.
40:28Probably my favorite part,I could say just actually the speaking part.Or coming on interviews like that,it's just getting to talk to new people,learn new things.So yeah, not just the teaching,but the learning as well,the fact that whenever you have a conversation
40:41and you try and teach something,you always end up learning something too.But maybe to get really specific,it's around where,I find myself almost coining a concept or a framework or a way of thinking about things.And I think a lot of people are like this, and certainly I am, in that I'll actually, I'll processstuff by speaking it through.So I'll be trying to teach something and actually I'll figure out a way to explain it.
41:08And it turns out that's actually a really good way.It resonates with people.And you can turn that almost into a framework or a concept, something that we can thenput into a blog post or we can create an actual acronym.We're big fans of acronyms and the podcast host.We'll create acronyms for frameworks at the drop of a hat.But it's because it actually works quite nicely in helping people remember the processand helping people visualize a process from start to finish.
41:33Yeah, yeah.I mean, it's always easier to remember.And I like when people are creative with it.Yeah, yeah.So I think if you're, yeah, for listeners out there, it's a really,it's a really good thing to keep your mind on when even if you're writing a LinkedIn post,if you're writing a blog post,if you're recording a podcast,
41:49creating a video,when you speak,you'll come out with great stuff.You'll come out with really good things.And sometimes they are thingsthat you can turn into somethingkind of protectable almost,something that you can say,
41:59this is something that I came up with.This is something unique.It's my unique angle on this.And it's quite easy to let it just gobecause you just speak it and then you move on.But actually trying to keep track of those,whether it's you actually literallypause the recording and say,
42:14right, that was good at it.I need to kind of make something out of that.I need to turn that into a, I said a phrase there, I need to turn that into a LinkedIn post,I need to turn it into a short video.And all of that formulating, taking that one point that you came up with on the fly,turning it into those other elements, kind of solidifies it, it refines it, it creates somethingthat you can then be one of your unique points, you know?As content creators, that's what we're looking to do is to have these, you know,
42:41two, three, four, five, ten things that are your unique takes that you can then,and sell to people to come in their show.This is how you get, you know, to be a podcast guest,you say, here's three things that I have a unique take on.Here's my framework that I came up with.So it's always really important to keep kind of track of those if you can.So, yeah, one of my favorite things of podcasting is when that actually happens.When you notice yourself creating something on the fly that you can then turn into lots of other stuff.
43:09I agree and I like it.And I feel like that I often can see or even like a post on LinkedIn where people talk aboutnot knowing where to look for ideas or to write about.But as you said, if you know where to lookor you actually think about the stuff that you already do,think about it maybe a bit differently,I feel like there's like an endless source of ideas,such as for example, conversation, as you just said,
43:37if you know where to look, how to look for it,and maybe just write it out so that you don't forget,you'll have more than enough ideas.Yeah, yeah.It's another way to use AI as an assistant, actually.I do this sometimes.I'll take a transcript from a podcast episode.And in that same process, like I said earlier,
43:54I'll ask it for some highlights,but equally I'll then ask it.Are there any things in here that you feel are, you know,unique viewpoints?Anything in here where I maybe created something new,anything that stand out to you in that way,that I could, you know, not patent,but, you know, I could trademark for myself.
44:12And it quite often comes out with little ideasand sometimes it's not things I really think I can run with,but occasionally it'll come out with something.And I'm like, yeah, that is good, actually.I need to kind of coin that.I agree. It's like, as you said, to use it as a system.I mean, we will just be pursuing overlook something.So having like a, although it's AI, but a different set of eyes,
44:30but you never know if it might help to spot something helpful.Yes, absolutely. Yeah.And if I ask you the opposite question,this was what you specifically enjoy,but is there something that you actually don't enjoy?or the truth, like, outsource to someone else because you don't like doing that?Yeah.I mean, it's, sorry, it's coming back to the tools we built again.
44:52It's the editing, really, isn't it?It's like, do you know, I have a love-hate relationship, though, with editing.I, because I actually, I've created many a highly produced podcast in my time.So I've worked with clients to do this.I've created some for ourselves.And I've sat for like two days, three days with a transcript in hand sculpting episodeswith like voiceover and music and clips and like taking seven or eight interviews and turningthem into one episode with voiceover and narration between. We've created shows like that and I
45:22get a lot of satisfaction out of creating content like that that has real polish, almostdocumentary style. But then again, I also think that you can get almost the same impact fromjust a well done interview that you only spend an hour doing and actually have just crafted theright questions and you've you've developed your skills as an interviewer to ask the right questionsand to follow up on the right strands and all that kind of stuff and it takes a fraction of the timeto create so you can just have so much more impact in the same amount of time so while i actuallydon't hate editing i actually quite enjoy editing when i'm creating something really complex i kindof don't like the fact that it just takes up so much time that doesn't really have the
46:07the commensurate effect on the outcome.You know what I mean?The time spent on editing doesn't usually correlatewith the impact that content has.Although, I will say, a little bit of editing does go a long way.Like making sure that you have your levels right,you take out a bit of the background noise,you do a wee bit of EQ, these kind of things
46:27that we can get done automatically now,whether it's with us with Alitutor there's other tools out there do the same thing.Loads of options.That little bit of cleanup makes a big difference.Editing out like a few of the mistakes,stakes, like just kind of cutting out a bit of the fluff can make quite a big difference as well.So yeah, it's a real balancing act. That's kind of why I hate editing because you're never entirely
46:47sure you're spending time on the right thing. I'm really glad that I asked you this question and Ilike the answer because I feel the same and I think it needs to be another podcaster to actuallyunderstand this. Because as you said, it's love-hate relationship. I like to be creative. I like topolish it the way so it sounds that I want, but at the same time, not going to life. It takesa lot of time. Sometimes it's a big, trying to be a perfectionist and endless work. So it's likeboth sides. Yeah, yeah. One of my, one of my favorite exercises to take a client through. We canhave, I kind of came up with this concept around the live recording mindset, whereby it works reallynicely with brand new podcasters, but actually it applies to existing podcasters. Maybe
47:33you can try it yourself to us. So the idea is, if you find that you are spending a fair bit oftime on editing, or you're worried about the time it's taking at least, or you're a brand newpodcaster and you just want to develop your skills, then for take five episodes and just commitstrictly to doing zero editing whatsoever. So you're not allowed to cut anything out. You're notallowed to fix anything whatsoever. You're just committing to put it out as if it's live. That'swhy it's the live recording mindset. You're going to record as if you're putting out a livebroadcast and that's it. You're on the radio. You're not allowed to do anything else. And there'sa couple of things happen with this and we've taken so many people through this and people
48:11react so well to it. One thing is you suddenly become a bit freer on the mic. You would think itmakes you more pressured, but actually it kind of makes you less pressured because you knowfind that you're going to make mistakes, but actually, you don't have to worry about it. You justkeep going. You go, oh, sorry, that was a mistake. Actually, let me just re-say that. And you justkeep going. And it makes you sound more human. It makes people actually connect with you more becausethe raw parts are in there. Obviously, there's a limit to this. You don't want to absolutely mess uplike most of the show. And there's kind of a limit to how it can be okay. But actually, nearly everyonecan do an episode, no worries without making these super big slat-ups, especially when you just
48:50commit to just going for it. The second part of it though is it actually develops your skills soquickly. See as soon as you take away that editing as a crutch, then you develop your speaking skillsso fast because editing is it's a crutch to most of us. We don't bother to work on cutting outour arms and our arms or fixing our speaking patterns or getting better at pacing or getting betterat asking good interview questions rather than just editing out the bad ones afterwards or whateverit is. As soon as you know, you're not going to get to edit it out,you start to think much more clearly about breathing in rather than saying, um, or, you know,asking good questions. It really leads you down good paths. And it really helps you improve
49:32your speaking style fast when you've committed to this because it takes away that safety net.So I would say, yeah, if you're out there thinking about editing about whether it's a brand new show,commit to five episodes, maybe even 10, where you just don't edit at all.All you do is do the little top and tail. So you just take off the silence at the start and the end.and put it through an auto cleanup of any sort.Again, Alatu or one of the alternatives, whatever it might be,and just put it out that way.And that's it.
49:58Would you risk that, Thomas?Would you try it?I'm thinking about it.Honestly, I haven't thought of it before.I've done like a few live recordings on LinkedIn with someone.And I felt in the beginning a bit, you know, step over the conference onbecause I was like, okay, this is live.You don't edit it afterwards.
50:17People can see it as it happens.But I must say that after beginning, I actually started enjoying that.And as you say, I was more free.And after some time, I tried to speak also more clear since I knew that I cannot edit it.So I like the idea.I think it's a great suggestion for the nuance.And I will definitely think about it as well.I haven't taught it before.
50:45Cool.Good stuff.And Corley, just to be aware.of time that we will be finishing soon. I want to ask you a few kind of more relaxed questions.So what is it that you enjoy doing in your free time or what are some of your hobbies?Well, there's a few things. I really like the outdoors. I live in the north of Scotland.So I love to get out of my bike or go for a run in the hills. It tends to be in the trees andthe hills and the water and the lakes and all that kind of stuff rather than out the tarmac.
51:15So that's why I live where I live basically to get out there and enjoy the lands.escape of the Highlands of Scotland. So that's one big part of it really. I don't even care what I do. Actually, I'm not really like a bigcycling aficionado or a running, I just do whatever it's easiest that day, just as long as I'm outside.So that's one part of it. But on the other part, if I'm indoors, the downside of living in thehighlands is that the winter is just pretty nasty. It's the dark and cold. So there's a bit,there's a bit less getting out on your bike and running in that case. And so over the winter,I'm actually, I'm quite nerdy, as you could probably guess from some of the technical stuff that I'vebeen talking about. And I like a good board game or like miniature figures and stuff like that. So I like
51:55playing miniature war games and stuff like that with friends or board games with my kids.So anything that's a game, anything that's got some good rules that I can dig into andtry and get good at, I really enjoy as well. So it tends to be those really kind ofesoteric, like European board games that I'll get into that are always too complicated,but great fun to learn. I'm not going to fly. I don't know much. So I could ask for somerecommendations, but I wouldn't be able to say much. But I know that you are a fan ofsci-fi and fantasy, right?And you also read the books.
52:29So who's got any book recommendations,whether it will be fiction or non-fiction?Can you share?Yeah.I mean, if you want some actual sci-fi or fantasy recommendations,I mean, going beyond the kind of standards,like some of the more recent one,televised ones, like Game of Thrones
52:45and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time and stuff like thatare really top-notch, which is why they've turned into TV shows.I'm one of the nerds that said I read it before the TV shows came out.but some of the more hidden ones are like I really enjoy the Amtrak Wars.It's a really old series.It's a really interesting series by Patrick Tilly.It was one of my first fantasy series.It was such a good series of books that it gets into so many different topics and just really nicely written.
53:11So that's a good sci-fi recommendation.And for fantasy, I've actually been reading a book called It's Really Silly.And it's just a total escape.but it's this newgenre that I found calledRPG lit where people write a book as ifyou're playing a game and it's calledDungeon Crawler Carl and it's
53:31complete and utter nonsensebut actually just one of the mostentertaining books I've read in a long time as wellso I'd recommend that for sureso yeah there's a couple for youyou said about the board game as wellif you want a gateway one you're notnerdy enough to know many about many of them
53:47but a gateway board game that'll take youinto the kind of more complex rulesis called Ticket to Ride.So Ticket to Ride is about building train tracks,and it's kind of like a much better version of monopolythat you can play with friends,and it's really fun, quite fast.And so it's like a, it's a great one to play,
54:06because it's not really super,it's not overly complicated.The rules are quite simple,but it actually is just far betterthan most of the kind of monopolies and Cludos and the likes out there.So yeah, there's one for you.I'll never heard of it, but I will have a look.And we discussed it already,
54:21ready, but can you summarize where people can find you, follow you and promote any of yourservices? Yeah, perfect. Yeah, I mean, the core one really that supports the stuff we do isAlatu. So if you go over there, you can get a seven-day free trial. If it's, if you're starting apodcast or running one, check it out. It's over at al-itu.com. That's a L-I-T-U.com. And all of ourpodcast and content, really, I've got one link which is colin-gray.com. So it's just my name,Colin Gray.link and that'll take you to our link tree. It's a big list of links thatwill take you through whether you want the YouTube channel, the podcast, the coaching space,all that kind of stuff. It's all in there. So just go to Colin Gray.com. And you'll find
55:02links to everything we do. I will add it to the show notes. And then Colin, before we finish,is there anything that you wish I should have asked you or any final message or piece ofadvice? If so, feel free to share. No, I mean, the big one really is. I mean, I think it,applies to podcasting. We've talked a little bit about podcasting, but the core rule that I alwaysshare with people is really keeping it super simple. It's nothing complicated at all. Just keeping it assimple as possible. The more elements you add to your gear, your software, your process, your workflow,the more things break. And so, you know, starting out, just pick one thing at a time to improve.It's actually just all about that focus. It's like, it's like I talked about the live recording mindset.
55:43Like the point of that is to not worry about editing and quality. The point of that is to focus on thecontent is to focus those 10 episodes on what do my listeners actually want to hear what am Iactually really passionate about sharing what kind of format of episode really suits me and over those 10episodes you'll really figure out what your podcast is going to be for the next hundred but only ifyou take the time to really think about you know reflect on what was that episode like did I enjoythat one what parts of it really resonated with me reach out to the audience and say what partsresonated with you. And you can't do that if you're trying to get your editing perfect, if you'retrying to add video into the workflow, if you're trying to market the show like crazy for those
56:24first two months. So it's really keeping it simple. It's picking one thing to improve at time and takingmaybe a month or two months even for each of those things before you move on to the next.I agree and I like it. I would say don't be like me when I was starting out trying tooverthink every single aspect, but just do it. Andin profound delight.So,Colin,I want to say
56:48a huge thank you.Not only it was awesomebecause as I said beforereading the podcast hostarticle years agoand now speaking withactually with you,it was kind of a beautiful journey.
57:02I really enjoyed itbecause speaking with another podcasterwe could be talkingfor much more longer,not only about the podcastbut other stuffthat you do as well.So I'll be happy
57:12to catch up anytime in the future againI encourage people to check out your show, check out Alitu and other resources that will be in the show notes.And want to say a huge thank you.It was pleasure to meet you, to chat with you.And I will keep following and supporting and wish you all the best with your show, with the podcast, with the Alitu and with everything else.So thank you very much.Thank you.Thank you.
57:36I really appreciate that.Cheers.Thanks for listening to Produce by with Tomen.Check the show notes for all the links.And don't forget to subscribe, like,and share your feedback. Speak soon.
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