Produced By - Unlocking Business Growth: Proven Tactics for Startup Success | #71: Sheldon Bishop

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Sheldon Bishop is a dedicated founder, writer, and content creator, best known for spearheading The Zero to One. With a talent for decoding the strategies behind the world’s leading startups, Sheldon delivers proven growth tactics through his newsletter, which has already gained the attention of top founders from ClickUp, Morning Brew, AppSumo, and more. Each week, he saves his readers countless hours by reverse-engineering the success of high-growth companies. In this episode, Sheldon shares his entrepreneurial journey, insights on founder-led marketing, the power of personal branding, and a glimpse into the vibrant startup scene in South Africa. Connect with Sheldon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheldonbishop/ https://x.com/Sheldonbishop01 The Zero to One: https://www.thezerotoone.co/ Connect with Tommen: LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠  Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠  X: ⁠https://x.com/TomasLoucky⁠  Podcast: Links: ⁠https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠  Website: ⁠https://produced-by-podcast.com/⁠  Support: ⁠https://www.patreon.com/ProducedByPodcast⁠  Produced (email newsletter): https://produced.beehiiv.com/  More: Trailblazed (marketing agency): ⁠https://trailblazed.digital/⁠  My SkillShare Course: ⁠https://skl.sh/3Rh7ZtY⁠  Produced (LinkedIn newsletter): ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7092551882589528065⁠⁠  Produced By with Tommen is your weekly dose of inspiration where ambition meets creativity. Join us as we dive into the journeys of content creators, entrepreneurs, and other remarkable individuals who break barriers and redefine success. Each episode shares unique stories, challenges, and triumphs. From heartfelt struggles to incredible successes, these conversations will motivate you to push beyond your limits and chase your own dreams. Whether you're on a creative path or just love great stories, tune in and become part of a community that constantly strives to push the boundaries. Sit back, relax and enjoy. Connect with Tomas:X: https://x.com/TomasLoucky⁠⁠⁠Stan: https://stan.store/TommenLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasloucky/⁠⁠Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisistommen/⁠⁠Unproduced:Newsletter: https://unproduced.substack.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@unproducednotesSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/033Ddo8ibDlLYoaP7FFLIWMore:Links: https://linktr.ee/produced_by⁠⁠⁠Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://producednewsletter.substack.com/⁠The Podcast Club: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/25420030/Tools & gear that support the show:Metricool: https://f.mtr.cool/HRJBZKRiverside: https://riverside.sjv.io/vDnDodFavikon: https://www.favikon.com?fpr=tommenRa Optics: https://ra-optics.myshopify.com/discount/TOMMEN?rfsn=8803777.591d19JamX: https://jamx.ai/podcasters-offer?ref_id=e02d48af-ef66-4e76-b804-c2e8d282a8bfSome links are affiliate links, which means I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. If you find them useful, using these links helps keep the podcast running. Thank you!  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

And I was trying to look through it. And I'm thinking, this sounds familiar, but I can't exactly tell where it's from. And so I just type in the URL, OK, dork, right? And it redirects to Noah's blog. And I realized, yeah, Noah used to call his blog, okay, dog. And so that's how I realized. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. Then I get an email from Noah, like his personal email now.

And he's like, hey, can I get the deep dive? And this is the day before. So I'm like, what do I say? Like, do I give him the deep dive early? or like what do I do so I was like I just stuck to it I was like hey no it's coming out tomorrow else I'll make sure you get it and so I the newsletter goes out and within like 10 15 minutes no replies before we dive into today's episode please hit that subscribe button your support helps us grow and inspire more people on their journeys thank you hello Sheldon thank you for joining us today and welcome to the show

Hey Thomas, I really appreciate you inviting me on and looking forward to getting going. So Sheldon, for those who don't know you, can you please introduce yourself? Cool. I'm Sheldon. For a while now on LinkedIn. I think it's a lot of how I've been meeting friends recently. Or should I say, like people in the entrepreneurship space is through LinkedIn. I suppose that's a good place to explain my journey is. I started this journey on LinkedIn. I've always had a passion for entrepreneurship, specifically like that early stage

zero to one getting an idea and making it something that's always something that I've rarely been passionate about from back in school when it's in a sound cliche but I was like the kid who sold sweets and snacks and drinks and then eventually I like upgraded that to I don't know if you know match attacks like the Premier League trading cards like those primarily trading cards I used to collect those

and I would even made like a trading and like selling business I'd repackage them into my own packets. So I've always been doing things like this. And I think it stems from my mom as well. She's been an entrepreneur for most, yeah, for most of my life. And I've seen like the power it has and I've seen like what it takes. And so that's how it started. And then as I got older, I always kept this interest.

I kept doing things selling toasted sandwiches at my boarding school and these sort of things. And then I suppose my first taste in private equity because. we tripled our money when we sold the business from what we bought it for. And then, yeah, so after I went to university, I always had the idea that I wanted to go and do my own thing. And so did you actually study entrepreneurship or business at uni? So it's a bit different in South Africa. I'd say like business isn't really a common degree. But I would say like I did a business degree.

What we call it like a commerce degree. And so I did economics. I actually did economics with law. The original plan was like, oh, let me go do and become a lawyer. I think a lot of people really told me that throughout my life, like, oh, you'd be a great lawyer. I was just someone who talked a lot and was debating. So, like, that's the part that older people tell you, right? Like, you talk a lot, you do debating, what, go be a lawyer.

I think that had kind of been in my head. And so I went to do that. But I enjoyed some of it, but to be honest, it wasn't for me. And I realized that. And so you must be honest, maybe this isn't a good example. But I never really took university. Like, it wasn't my main priority, right? I had other businesses on the side.

I ran a... I usually tried drop shipping, right? It was the height of drop shipping when I was getting into it. I had some extra money. I was tutoring. And then realized this is actually a tough business. Like, it's not how people say it online. You need capital is the end of the day.

You need to test ads, test products. So you're saying it's not like when people advertise on YouTube to start drop shipping business? Not at all. But I feel like when I was getting into it was like the height of this. Like everyone was saying, do drop shipping. do drop shipping and so I tried and I kept failing and the main problem was coming back. I just didn't have the ad budget to spend. Even when I chose what they call like a winning product, I would kind of break even because

you're still testing how to optimize the ads and I didn't have enough money and like my payback cycles weren't quick enough to keep reinvesting. And so I stumbled across the idea of how do I get my acquisition costs down, right? That became my main priority. Like I still wanted to do it. I could see like some signs it was working. I made a sale here and there, but I just didn't have the money to really go at it. And so there was this YouTuber, Bia Heza, I think was his name.

I came across long ago. Yeah, I think I've seen him as well. Yeah, I don't know if he still posts, but back then he used to run Instagram theme pages. Like, you know, those pages that post non, it's not themselves. It's like other content, right? Yeah, like faceless, sorry? Faceless, yeah. I suppose like faceless automation YouTube nowadays.

It was like Instagram back then. And so I got into that and I really started enjoying it. First, I made my own content. Then I just started repurposing like other content. And after a while, like some people wanted to sponsor themselves or like products on my page. Before I even went back to drop shipping like $5 here and there. And I was like this is actually like a good business model in itself. Right.

Like you don't necessarily need to go to the drop shipping where you have to test everything. It's still. They're still. that element to it. And I have something that's working here. So let me double down on it. So I did. I realized I had an NBA page like American basketball.

But my thought was it's too hard to monetize because products at the end of the day are trademarked and copyrighted. And so I actually sold the page. Like that's a big business that was going on at the time. It's like buying and selling Instagram pages. And so. Sorry to interrupt. Was it worth it for the price that you sold it? like a good price.

I think I can't, honestly, I can't remember too much, but I remember getting a good deal because it wasn't that big. It was only like 10 to 20,000 followers. And I was like, in the hundreds of dollars, I can't remember exactly, to be honest. This is six years ago. So I was happy with it. I was a university student. I was like, this is an extra bit of money I can use for other things, right?

Other businesses. And so, but the intention then was for me to, I went to like more, like should I say high ticket or like easier to monetize niche so like the luxury niche right which was posting nice watches nice cars houses those sort of things and it I blew it I blew the page up like really look at a hundred in a hundred and I grew up to 100,000 followers in nine months like just under nine months and sorry this was before real posting images daily images that you found online exactly yeah so I think this is I didn't do much, to be honest. I just knew how to like play the game, which at the time, and I think this is

true for every social media when it's prioritizing organic engagement, which is you need to be consistent. Like the platforms rarely reward consistency. They show you to more people. You get better at what, like figuring out what works. So not only does the platform award you, but you actually become better at it. And so I was posting three posts a day, three and like multiple stories a day. I this every day. I didn't miss a single day. And I would engage with other people's posts. Not so much as I think, I think that's more important now. And depending on the platform like Twitter and LinkedIn, that's super important. But Instagram wasn't too much. Maybe at the beginning. Did you do online advertisement as well? No, this was all organic. No. No. Nice. Yeah. It's like some shout out for shoutouts,

but I didn't pay for anything to grow. And then along that journey, I started getting clients or I got my first client for like social media management. And I was like, okay, this is a cool business now. So I have this page, which is also generating me money because people are advertising on it. And at this stage, I'm charging like $50 a story, right? So it's relatively good money, especially for someone in university. So I'm making something like $200, maybe a bit more a month. And then I'm getting these social media clients.

And so things are going up. And then about a year later, a few months later, COVID hits, right? And I don't know what it was like for people listening, but in South Africa, it was very strict lockdown and for a while. From my experience in Europe, in the beginning, it was very strict as well. Because people didn't really know what is happening, how it's going to evolve, so it was strict as well. Yeah, exactly. So that strictness, it just was really prolonged in South Africa. And so all the clients I had actually were like in-person businesses.

And particularly like high movement, like not to get into the details. Like one of the clients, for example, is like a Wi-Fi provider like hotspots, public hotspots. And I mean, that completely goes away when no one can leave the house, let alone congregate. And so all the clients in like a matter of weeks. fall away, right? And so so does my business. But at this. I saw the page, luckily. At the same time, I understand what you said, but wouldn't it also be benefit if people are

locked at home and use more of internet and social media? Or it's not correct? Yeah. So, no, I agree. I think a lot of businesses really benefited from it. And maybe now, let me say my business died, but all the clients I had were gone. So the revenue is reset back to zero because their businesses were gone. And look, there's nothing much you can do as an agency.

or like a service provider if your client doesn't adapt or change it. So say they'd come up with something new, innovative, cool, now we can work together still. But if their decision is to stop, there's nothing much you can do. And so I started the page. I still had like, I was still making some money and I still had a base, had case studies, etc. But then what ended up happening is I got an offer. I get offers often and I wouldn't really listen to them. But to sell this luxury page, it was quite a good offer.

thought, okay, let me see if I can push the price up a little bit, something I'm happy with. I didn't want to take it about, I just wanted to find a price that I thought was fair. And so eventually with some negotiation, we get to a price now. Now, this one was a lot better than the other one. I still think I was underpriced, but it was something like 2000, 500. I mean, I like to share, like, I think it's good for people to know numbers. I don't want to seem like I'm bragging, but it helps, I think. I would actually ask you out of Christ, but I'm not sure if it will.

be appropriate. So if you share it, it's only a good thing. Yeah. So I think I sold for something like $2,500. It's a lot, like it's a decent bit of money for just an asset, right? Again, I think it's undervalued looking at it now and sometimes I regret selling it. But what I did with that was what really helped is the people I sold it to actually ran the biggest real estate social Instagram page at the time. I think it's still the biggest. So in South Africa or No, no, in the world. It's called luxury listings. I think they have something like three point something million followers now.

So they were like looking to like to form this big conglomerate media agency with Instagram pages. And so I didn't even realize at the time. And this is who now sold it to. So I end up working with them for a while, which is really cool and interesting. And so I learned a lot, right? I was running the page. I was working with them getting to like speak to them. hear them out in their ideas, how they did things.

And eventually, I think they're the way they saw the business kind of differed in the leadership. I don't really know what happened, but I could see like things weren't. I don't know if things were working out the way they'd hoped. So I decided to step away and went basically replicated them what they'd learned there in South Africa, which is I built the South African real estate page, like a South African real estate page. At the time, I think there was only one other person doing it. again I think I still have the page it's like a hundred and twenty something thousand followers

and off of the off of that especially considering as a one country focus it was a bit slower but look nice houses sell themselves and South Africa has like really beautiful homes like it's quite renowned for its architecture and if you think about Cape Town

I'm not sure I mean people listening might not be aware but Cape Town's like super scenic and beautiful and it's really cheap compared to the rest of the world, like per square meter. In South Africa, yes, it's relatively expensive for South African, but when you compare it to other major tourist hotspots, it's affordable. Although I've never been there, but I did research, especially after speaking with Matt in one of the previous episodes, and it really looks beautiful and I'm excited to visit one day as well.

Yeah, I mean, it's awesome, right? I think, I was born in Joe, but I live in Cape Town now. I think both have cities have their pros, but Cape Town is really beautiful. And it is like it has like world-class city traits, you know, like there's infrastructure, a lot of parts in some parts.

And it's really beautiful. I mean, there's mountains, the ocean. Penguins. Yeah, exactly. Penguins on the beach. And also from what I heard, is it kind of startup hub of South Africa or Africa? Yeah, so Cape Town is,

It's definitely the hub of South Africa. And I say Cape Town because it's more like there's another city close to Cape Town called Stellenbosch, which is like the Wynelands. Let's say that's 40 minutes away. Those, that's like the hub. Like those two cities, I would put them together and say that's a hub. I think Cape Town's growing to become even bigger by itself. And Joburg is massive because there's just more like institutional money. So there's more of the funds that are here in Joburg and more like the banks, I headquartered in Joburg.

And so there's like more investment to go around. So by that virtue, it's bigger in Joburg as well. But I'd say like the more typical startup scene, you feel that in Cape Town. You don't really feel it too much in Joburg. And can I ask you, as someone who's never been there, and I've got opinion like from the news or from what I read, is it truth or to what extent is it true that Johannes Berk is, or to me it seems like dangerous place, obviously not everywhere,

but I feel like that's how social media often portrays it? Is that true or not? Yeah, look, I'll answer that now. I just want to go back to a startup hub question. Something I want to add is like, I think South Africa is still, what South Africa is very stable in terms of investment, whereas you get other hubs around Africa like Nairobi, I mean, Kenya and Lagos, and Cairo, and Cairo and Egypt,

which often have more, should I say, of a startup scene in terms of like capital spent evaluations. like there's no unicorn that's come from South Africa yet. There's unicorns from Nigeria, right? And, like, specifically in Lagos. And, but what you see is, like, on downturns, South Africa stays stable, whereas these other countries tend to go more cyclical. Yes.

And I'm, I think that's like a pro, like a big pro for South Africa, but it is still a lot for South Africa to, like, internationalize compared to these other markets. But going back to Joe Berg, yeah, look, South Africa, there's, going to be places that aren't safe, but realistically, you can avoid them. Like, you don't have to be in an unsafe environment. Yeah, maybe it's about more being aware of your environment, like, just keeping an eye on your phone and these sort of things. And I always say, it's like, I'm lucky. I've never had anything happen to me. Like, no harm, no Rob, like, nothing's ever happened to me. But again, I can't, that's not all my, I know friends who've had things that happen

to them, like, I've had, my girlfriend's phone got pickpocketed, but I mean, that happened. around yeah right it would happen in London I guess like exactly yeah regular day so those things like look there is violence like crime like mine crime specific in fact it feels like a big gender-based violence issue so like women it's like it's very unsafe for women especially compared to the rest of the world but in the general like if you come as a tourist you can avoid all the more dangerous areas and do you feel like that it's improving or not or it's staying the same that's an interesting question i don't know

are you talking about just specifically safety or like general economic outlook it was more towards the safety but you can answer both i'll be curious about both i don't know if it's just how i've perceived it but i would say it's being safer i don't know the stats right i don't know so i can't actually say in terms of like general economic view so let's see i think saphric is in an interesting situation because, I mean, most people aren't going to know this, but we've had the same government for, like, since we came out of apartheid, right? So the ANC has been a ruling party since 1994. And this is the first year where it's a coalition is the wrong word, but like a government of national unity.

So there's multiple parties who are ruling. And so, look, I don't know if it's going to be better, if it's going to be worse, but I think it's at an interesting time where. There seems to be more incentive, even before the government, like the agency, we're already introducing more privatization, which in my opinion is a good thing in the circumstances that we have here. So, yeah, I'm hopeful. This is the answer. And maybe one more question talking about South Africa. What is it like in Pretoria? Why do you ask about Pretoria?

I mean, if I'm not mistaken, isn't it one of the capital cities? Yeah, yeah, so it is the capital. It's actually like, I would say it's like Joburg, but a bit smaller and less developed. So it's more like constitutional capital. So it's like where the government sits. Yeah. So it's some parts are nice. It's again, it's just like Joe,

but I'll just say it's like a bit smaller and like less. I don't say it developed might be the wrong word, but like less big city than just. And is there something funny about it? Because when I ask you, I don't know, best of the reaction. I think, yeah, it's just like, it's always like this. It is the capital. Like, Safri has three capitals, which is Pretoria, Cape Town, and Blumfontein. But personally, I don't know how Blumfentine stole the spot as a capital.

But the Blumfetain one, I think, is where the constitutional court lies. It's like more legislative, and that's why it's the capital. But Pretoria as well, it's like, it's just always been funny to me. It's like, it's not the biggest city. It's not even the second biggest. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm interested in the geography, so I always like to discuss this stuff, and especially when it's somewhere I haven't been to.

So just was curious. What I'd say about Pretoria is like you get jaccharander season, which is so beautiful. So they're these, they're called jacaranda trees, and they're purple, and they line the streets all over. So it gets really beautiful when it's jaccaranda season, which I think is only for like a few weeks every year. So then coming back to your entrepreneurial journey, I wonder, have you finished the university

in the end or did you become a entrepreneur? So I ended up finishing, so how you generally work sci-fries do like three-year degree and then you do a year of honors and then only a master's, right? So it's a bit different to the rest of the world, but I stopped after the three years. So I stopped after three years. Is it because you didn't really see a reason in the continuing or why? Yeah, exactly. I think there were a few reasons, right? I was at this point where I had now, so going back to the real estate, siphon real estate page, I built that up to where I had a few clients, real estate clients now specifically, where I was doing like social media work, like the content creation, more specifically like ads as well. And so it wasn't like big enough yet that I was super comfortable to not look for a job. And also I think a lot of me was like this, the traditional past, you just get a job. Let me just continue doing this on the side, right? And then also, do I do an additional year in of my studies?

And I got a job offer. So I interviewed certain places. And one of them was for like a management consulting, like a boutique firm here. And I got the offer. I mean, the truth is you get seven days to respond to the offer. So I just said yes. And that's the reality. It's like I wasn't sure really what exactly I wanted to do in the next year.

In some parts of me, like as much as I had my own business, I wasn't particularly enjoying it. I think, and I don't think that's a, I don't think you have to enjoy a business, but I don't know if that's what I wanted. I think I wanted to find something that I really was passionate about and wanted to do, and was prepared to put like the next 10 years into. And this, I just don't think was it. And so that was probably swaying me a bit. Do I sometimes regret not just giving it a go? Yeah, I don't, I don't if I regret, but I think I could have made it work. But I went down the path of continuing on the side.

and then going into consulting, which it was a tough decision, a tough outcome, because consulting is very demanding. And I was still doing this on the side. So I did it, but then I ended up just like winding down the contracts of like all my clients. So I kept the ones I suppose were less work by hours and that I had like better relations with and then kept going less and less. But what I still ended up doing was like touring homes. I still did that stuff because I found I enjoyed it.

And so I was still working with clients with that. And what I would also work on like a referral basis. So if I ever referred someone who ended up purchasing, I would get a commission. So you were basically working in this consultancy and at the same time running your business on the side. Yeah, exactly. Wasn't it time and consuming? It is time consuming. Yeah, it is.

That's the answer. I worked a lot. I still do because I'm still actually working in consulting. Yeah, because you said it is. So my next question was if you actually still continue doing both. Yeah. So, yeah, there's still, I suppose, I'm a bit, I don't know, I don't really, I know if I have the answers to this. I don't think I do.

I mean, I'm just somewhat like a person, but I think it's important for me that, like, I feel very financially. stable and when I decide to go full time. And sometimes I think, yes, it's good to put your back against a wall and there's no other option, but to make it work. And I think that can work. And I think it could work for me and I think it works for other people. But I also at the same time as like, I do have this job and my like employers have been like open to accommodate me working on things on the side.

And also then I might work flexibly in Cape Town. and come to go where needed. So I have these things. Like, it's like a good relationship in terms of allowing me to work on the business. Yeah, like fleximbrose. Exactly. Like the company I work for is very, most people do something. Like one of my teammates has, like team members has an app for product, like a productivity app.

And all around the tutoring company. So everyone's doing things. And so I think it still benefits me from that perspective. I also had to, I also changed my perspective in how. how I think about my job in relation to my business, where it's like, if you think about a typical startup, is often at the beginning they do like agency work or like other bootstrapped, like any scrappy work to make money so that they can focus on the main thing.

Now for me, my main thing now is my like founder led marketing business, right? So that is the main thing for me. And I work with that and I'm still busy refining my offering and everything and I got my first client earlier in the year and now my second one is we're in the process of about to onboard and so like I'm working slowly to a place where I feel comfortable enough. Yes. But how I view the job is also this is almost like that scrappy way to make money where it's like

I don't mean it in a scrappy way. I mean like it's a revenue generator for the business. Yeah. So now I can spend more money on, for example, if I wanted to hire someone, um, to work with it. Or if I wanted to, yeah, exactly, to work with me to, I can use all the tools and without worrying about like expensive. I can use it.

And I don't think you need that. So I don't want to like encourage people to say like, oh, you need to wait for these things. It's just I was in the situation and I realized this is what I want to do. Yeah. So for me, it's working out like. Exactly. So it's like I reframed it as this is funding my business.

And it's just one of those things that like you do as a startup. And this is the way that I'm funding. And that's how I build it. Do you know then, or have you got plans over time to focus fully on your own business? Yeah, exactly. So I think, like I was mentioning, I have the first client, second one's on the way. Look, I don't want to say too much, but like the income is almost being replaced already. And so for me, once I'm like, let's say 60, 70% there, I'm happy to go in, even maybe a bit less.

I'll have to see. But it's very much, it is the plan. It's like, I think everyone here at my work knows it as well. It's like I wanted to do my own thing and it's very clear. But while I'm here, I still think it's right to give everything and like work hard and do do what's expected. But also it's good to know like, okay, for me, it's like going into entrepreneurship is the goal. Yes.

And so I've been working to get to that point. And yeah, I think the thing with entrepreneurship is like, it's hard. And it gets glamorized often and rightfully so. There are so many upsides and so many benefits to it. But for me, it's not just hard in terms of like skills or ability. It's hard like emotionally and mentally as well where you just have to learn how to deal with rejection very well. Because if you can't, it's not going to be an enjoyable journey. How to deal with all kinds of people like. Exactly, right? And the thing is like, exactly, like so many people, like you work with different clients and there's things that work for one and don't work for the other. And I think also like a trait of entrepreneurs is probably that you're guessing is that a lot of entrepreneurs overthink things or like are pretty hard on themselves. So if something doesn't work, it's almost like, oh, I should have done that better. I need to do better. And I think that's a good attitude that you want to do better. But I think often it's like beating yourself down.

rather than lifting yourself up. And that generally makes it worse. Like, the approach I've taken now recently is it's just like, what happens happens and you need to just learn. So I've even like have learnings now that I've, so I use a notion. I use notion and I have this database now. So it's just like learnings. So say onboarding a client, what didn't go well here?

What could go better next time? What makes it easier for me? What makes it easier for the client? It's just like whenever I think of little lessons through my experience, I write it down. Because you can only, you don't know what you don't know until you do. And so like one thing I think recently that it's a lesson for anyone, especially in like a service business, is get people to pay the invoice as soon as possible. And I don't mean it.

Exactly. I don't mean it from the perspective of they won't pay eventually because I think people have said that. But in my experience, generally people have paid even later. But I mean it from the perspective of you need to get buy-in straight away. And when people pay you, they're much more willing to have time for the call, to if it's a review-based agency, to review your work straight away. Whereas if there hasn't been any payment, it's like, oh, we can delay this, kick it down the road. It's like a commitment.

Exactly, right? It's like just a physical commitment where the business feels, okay, we've paid this, we need to take it seriously. And so, like, that's just something I've learned recently. look, I think you could have seen it coming, but also when you're starting a business, it's like, you just want to say yes and make sure that the customer's happy and everyone's happy. But you also need to figure out like, this is actually in the best interest of the customer as well and your client. It's like sometimes like what's easy isn't the best way for them. And similar, and it's not just for entrepreneurs like anyone in a job as well. It's like often, especially in what I do consulting is you have to push back on the client because at the end of the day, what, what's, what.

What's right is the intellectually honest answer, not what someone wants. And to get there, you need conflict along the way most of the times. You're not going to agree. And the point is like, I like this idea of strong opinions, but loosely held. When we believe in something, like we believe in it, like this is the way we're going to do it and you need to be full commitment. But if you get information that can change that, don't wait or don't hold on to an ego, like a loss, you need to change.

Yeah. And so, like, that's the best way for, in my opinion, to get, like, the best outcome, which gets you the best, like, which clients feel the best, which then they get the best results, which means you get better business, like more business, you get referrals, you get paid studies. And so, yeah, these are things you just learn along the way. There's a quote, I think I heard it from Sean Puri, you know, the founder of Milk Road.

He's the first million podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, podcast, yeah, I was going to say. Yeah, exactly. to my first minute. He's like, I don't know if he said it or someone said it, but I heard it from him where it's like, you just, to be an entrepreneur, you just have to be willing to put yourself in more uncomfortable situations than anyone else. And like, that is what it's about.

Like you, sales is uncomfortable. Whether you're a pro or new, it's like, it's uncomfortable, you just have to do it. You're asking for feedback from someone who's not happy. You have to do it. It's uncomfortable. Like, it's just all these things where it's like uncomfortable moment, uncomfortable. comfortable moment. And the more you can get comfortable with that uncomfortability, I think the higher your chance of success becomes. Yeah, of course. I completely agree. It's not easy. It's not

something that you really want to do, but the best way, how to learn how to get the feedbacks from your mistake, especially so that you don't repeat it again. I can only agree with you. And I was just about to add that when you spoke about basically speaking with clients, that I'm not saying that you should argue, but you don't be afraid to say the opposite opinion or not to say yes to everything that the client says, because you also need to think about what is realistic. If you get paid enough, you know, because a client can have huge visions, but is it actually doable? Is it doable? We did the timeframe with the budget. Are we going to stress about it in yet? Is it worth it actually? So there are a lot of questions and it's not as easy as it may seem like. yeah exactly and also you said a great point before I think it was that people often talk about I don't know

entrepreneurship that is easy or something in that sense because it's also quite easy to see success stories on social media and everywhere so then you tend to compare yourself to others maybe think that it's easy or something like that and especially you don't see the whole story of what people post there

so it's something that I try to remind myself not to compare yourself to others. It would be just my piece of advice. Yeah, exactly. I think comparison is a tricky one because I think it can help when you use it to motivate yourself. But when you do that, it's like very tricky

because you don't want to use it to look as like, look where they are and I'm only here. It's like you want to look at it as, ah, they can do it, I can do it too. So let me get up there. Yeah. I think like keeping that balance is quite hard. But like you're saying,

you don't see success gets shouted about. And people talk about success. And people do talk about failures. I'll be honest, but that's generally once they're successful. So you only really hear about it from successful people. And the thing is, maybe people who fail do talk about failures,

but they don't get seen as much because they don't have this platform that successful people do. So you really only see like success stories. And then like they say they had all these hardships at the beginning. But it's not as real as someone who's actually, had the hardships and hasn't had the success yet. Yeah. Obviously, such a person wouldn't be posting about it.

Exactly, right. And I think for me, it's like recently, if you think about this, the idea of luck, and this has been a big topic for me, is like how much of what you do is luck and how much is it you? And I'm not sure the answer, but for me, I think the big parts of luck have already occurred in your life, like complete luck. Whereas where you were born, like who your parents were,

your genetics, these sort of things, like everything related to your birth. Like, I mean, there's like huge passport privilege, which is like, determines a lot of people's lives. Like your class of your parents, those things have happened, right? Some of the only examples I can think of of like pure luck where there's no influence around it. There's nothing you could have done, you as a person. Everything else, I think is like, I've been thinking of it, is it just not increasing your shots on goal? Where it's, you're not relying on luck. There's still luck involved in everything.

But, like, if you take enough shots, you're all, like, it is like football expected goals, eventually your expected goals exceeds one. Yeah. All you need to make it big is one shot that goes in. And I think I've been thinking more as like, how do you just keep, I see this as entrepreneurship as like, keeping taking shots. Like, you just take shots and shots and shots and maybe every time you learn something, so you take it at a better angle, closer to the goal.

And eventually, like, you're bound to score. I think another way of thinking about it is, again, I'm stealing from Sean here again, but I think he stole this from someone else. So it's like, everyone looks for a silver bullet. But in reality, that you're never going to find it. What you need to do is like, and actually this might have been Alex or Mosey. I can't remember. But what you need to do is keep shooting lead bullets and eventually, like, one will just be silver. like you don't intend to shoot the silver bullet you just keep doing like consistently showing up for yourself

doing the things you need to do call the email people dming people doing sales doing calls and eventually like the silver bullet will just come out and rather than looking for it just start shooting the other ones yes yeah i i like it and i often or not often but try to think about it that for example There is this quote, I think it's from him from Edison, that he didn't fail, but he found 100 ways that didn't work. So basically you never know if 100 first can be the one. So I can, for example, stop today and I don't know if I would succeed tomorrow. I don't have to, but at the same time I can. So it's like you never know.

Yeah, I can agree with a friend. I like it. Are you looking to elevate your online presents? Check out Trailblazed, our digital marketing agency. Whether it's standing out on social media, crafting a stunning new website or developing impact visuals, Trailblaest has got your back. Visit Trailblaest.digital and reach your online potentials a day. And I know, Sheldon, that you've got really good newsletter.

Do you want to tell us more about it? Introduce it. Why did you start it? What is it about? Yeah, cool. So I run a newsletter called this. to one where essentially I give you the tactics that you need to grow or like the tactics you can replicate that have been proven from the world's leading startups that you can use to grow your business, right? So I spend 20, 25 hours, sometimes more, sometimes less, researching pickup, absumo, morning brew, these startups that have seen like massive success, both in terms of growth

and revenue and profits. And then I distill that down into, then you. Newsletters changed a bit over time. And I think this is, again, another, like, learning from what I've learned, like, doing the newsletter is that I used to distill this, like, long story, it was more longer form, like, how they grew and then the tactics and, like, how you can replicate. But now I focus one specific topic each week. It's like, here's one tactic that Chess.com used, for example, to grow. And it's very, I try to make it very practical.

So, like, I started off with, like, if you don't have time, there's a section which is basically just the key takeaway. So if you don't have time, you can read this section. Yeah, I like it. I subscribe and I appreciate this because sometimes they obviously want you to read the whole thing, but maybe you want to find out first if you're going to enjoy it, if it's something for you or not. So I appreciate that you at this part. I'm glad to hear that. I think also my thinking was my target audience is entrepreneurs and like more I would say busier people. So they're not going, they don't have tons of time to read a three, four, five thousand

word email. Even now how I do it, which is like 600 words, it's like, they don't always have the time. So if I just add like a little snippet, they know every week they can take like one short thing away, which takes a minute to read, then I've done my job there. And they're probably more likely to read the rest as well. And yeah, so I lead that with the like key takeaway. And then I go into it, what is the tactic? And here's how it's working.

So here's the three-step process, essentially, to how it's working. So, like, practical example and one that I really enjoyed doing, which is chess.com. I did my research. Essentially the tactic I wanted to write about it, excites me. I'm big in the creative economy as well. It's like how chess.com uses partnerships to grow their business, almost in, like, a growth loop, flywheel type way. And what I mean by this is, like, to practically break it down is they use, at the top of the funnel, these like massive celebrities, your athletes, like Luca Donchich has his own

promotion with Chess.com, right? Jalen Brown, Larry Fitzgerald, these big athletes, there's musicians, and this is getting people in who don't necessarily play chess. So you're new, they have never played before. They see Luca, their favorite basketball playing. Okay, let me try Chess.com. Then what they do is they have the second layer, which is like people who are, beginners but like more they're into the idea of like things around chess and what this can be is like queen's gambit right so they watch queen's gambit well what is chess.com do they make a partnership with queen's gambit so you can play against beth which is the main character at different ages they work with streamers right who do like chess championships like ludwig so he runs a chess championship you get

the biggest creators in the world for some of them and they they do a chess tournament and yeah i might not watch chess, but I watch Ludwig. So when he puts this on, I'm sort of interested, but like, and so that's more like in this middle tier. And then the bottom tier is people who love chess. It is people who play chess. And that's when you get your like Hikaru's, the actual

chess players, like Hikaru, Magnus, your chess YouTubers, so your Levi's, like Gotham chess. So, and how what I think is really smart about is it's like, it attracts people into this ecosystem and keeps them there. So you

get, let's say someone is a fan of Luca. So they see Luca, they start playing. Now they kind of into chess, right? Or maybe even see Luca, they don't necessarily start playing straight away, but they like watch the Queen's Gambit. And so every step, like, gets you closer

and like further down the funnel. So you start playing and now you see okay, chess.com are hosting with Ludwig, a championship. So you go, okay, let me watch that. And now you're like moved down a layer. You're more into chess now. And then after that, it's like, okay, I want to get better at chess. So there they've given you the, I mean, there's tools on the platform, which I think it's a great app.

But then it's also like you start watching YouTube, right? So now you're in that final tier. You're watching these professional chess players, play chess. And it just feeds back into itself where then you want to play against your friend, right? And it's a network, like, it's almost a network issue where it's like, you can only play against people on the platform. And so they start speaking to their friends and then like the loop continues. And the more, like, chess actually grows as a sport, the bigger this gets.

And I think chess.com has, like, very distinct. We grow within chess. So now they grow chess, the game. Yeah. So they grow the game. Whereas, so that's these partnerships with athletes and different, like, supercell is another example. So, like, Clash of Clans, they did a Clash of Clans with Duolingo.

And so, like, they're growing the game, not just their act. And so, like, as they grow the game, that essentially grows them, like, it increases the amount of people who fall down the funnel. And I think it's awesome strategy. And how do you select topics? Maybe what companies, what specific topics you're going to write about? So, again, it's changed a bit now that I've gotten shorter, but I want to go back to the original way, which is I just look at companies that interest me. So the first deep dive I ever did was Stan. It's a tool for creators to make money online, right?

It's an awesome business. Like they're super good product. Like the marketing is fantastic. And the founder does an awesome job as well as founder-led marketing on YouTube. I guess personal brand is really strong, open, authentic. So I find a company that I'm interested in or that I've used a product or that I've seen the founder online or someone online and it sparked my interest. Right. So I'd usually pick a company first.

And what I want to go back to doing is like a blank slate, whereas I don't go into it with any preconceived idea of the strategy, the growth strategy they used. Because my last few ones I've been doing that where it's like, oh, I've seen Zapier users or Zapier users SEO content. Yeah, I remember that one. I enjoyed it. It was a good one. Yeah.

So I'd have seen that they did that. And I was like, let me write about that, right? And while I think it works, you can do it that way or if someone wants to do it, they can do it that way. For me, like, the real joy I found in the whole process was, like, distilling this information into what I thought was the key takeaways. Because what I'm really, what I went from doing was, like, creating new thoughts. And I don't want to, like, over extend of what I'm doing. But, like, I was taking all information and creating something new from it, going into what. but I did now with the more recent ones, which is I just looked for what I could see was already happening.

And I think there's a small difference, like, in that I didn't get that moment of joy where I was like, oh, this is actually the story I'm telling. And I think it was always like when I was doing the research, I would put my notes down. And I would always think, like, I'm not sure exactly how this comes together. And like, what is actually the tactic they're growing here with? For example, they mention influences on one part, but they mention. other things here. It's like, are those related?

I'm not sure. And like that moment or like time I sat down and actually realized, okay, this is the story. Like this is the tactic. I miss that. Yeah. And so I'm going to go back to more that style when I do my research, which is like I'm going to look at a company,

just consume what I can and then figure out what tactic interests me the most. I'm going to write about that. And so, I mean, I'm not sure when this is going to go out, but my next deep dive is on, well, actually it's tonight, but the next one is on arc, which is the browser, and I'm doing that process, which is I'm just listening and consuming and reading as much content as I can from the founder, any growth team, their social media,

any blog articles as I can. And then I'm going to think of what I think of. Because there's also another issue that I've ran into is, it's like these, there's not many people who talk about the topics. talk about, but there are people who do it. And it's people who do it really well, right? So is this writer Jared, he's actually also South African, but he lives in New York. And he has this really great news that are called How They Grow. Honestly, it's way more in-depth than something I do. And it's a bit more product-focused than growth. It's still focused on growth, but more on the product side of it

than the gross side of it. And he has these awesome deep dives. And it's like probably triple the length of my old ones. So 10,000 words plus. And so if you sit down and read it, it's awesome. But like the time might not be too long. And then there's another one called strategy breakdowns, which is by this guy, Tom. He's also, it's really good. And he has more like strategy behind it. So yeah, still growth. And what I find is like, I don't want to be skewed by content that's already been creative. So what ended up happening with the Zapio one, I'll give you a practical example is I had seen the strategy. I'm starting to write about it. And like, research. And then I'm like halfway through it. It's like writing the breakdown and I come across

Tom's piece on it. And once you see, once you see something else, you can't unsee it. It's like you're always going to think of like structure like that. Like I'm working with someone at the moment who's building a course, like a LinkedIn, a seven-day crash course with me. We're working together to build it. And he was like, he had thought to say he didn't want to look at other courses because once you see the structure of another course, you can't understand. see it. Like you're always going to think and and so I've gone more on the focus is like I just want to consume as much first hand content or like first source so like from the team the founder and then only look at secondary sources once I've sort of thought it through. Yeah. Because it's like it just

gets to you can't unsee something and it's yeah, it's unfortunate. I understand. I feel the same because it influences it would be for example similar if I was doing an episode on a podcast with someone. and before I listen to other episodes, then I cannot unremember that. And her student obviously influences me. And I was going to say that if I'm not mistaken, the newsletter is read by some big founders and CEOs from some well-known companies, right? Yeah, look, I didn't expect it to happen as soon as it did, but there's some really cool founders, the ones people might know.

For example, NOAA, right? Noah, yeah. So Noah Kagan, founder of Absuma. He's a really awesome guy as well. He's a funny story. So I post about it on LinkedIn. That the neck tomorrow, I'm sending out my deep dive on App Sumo, right? And so I see Noah likes my LinkedIn post. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. And then at the same time, I got a similar time, signed up on my newsletter from an email. And I was like, who is this? And I was trying to look through it. And I'm thinking, I'm like, this sounds familiar, but I can't exactly. hell where it's from. And so I just type in the URL, okay, dork, right? And it redirects to Noah's blog. And I realized, yeah, Noah used to call his blog, okay, dog. And so that's how I realized, I'm like, oh, that's so cool. Then I get an email from Noah, like, his personal email now. So not is not the okay dog one. And he's like, hey, can I get the deep dive? And this is the day before. So I'm like, what do I say? Like, do I give him the deep dive early or like, what do I do? So I was like, I just stuck to it.

I was like, hey, Noah, it's coming out tomorrow else. I'll make sure you get it. And so, the newsletter goes out, and within like 10, 15 minutes, no replies. He's like, hey, this was like really good. He enjoyed it. And he, like, we start speaking for a bit. And he puts me in touch with the social media person. And he ends up giving me, like, a behind the scenes look.

And I did a guest article. Like, I wrote an article about the launch of his book. A million. a million-dollar weekend. Yeah. So he launched a book and, like, he had this whole strategy, like, launch strategy behind it. And so he asked if I wanted to do, like, a deep dive on it.

And it was something new because I'd only done companies at that point, but I did it. And my audience really liked it. It was one of the most liked, like, on the polls episode. And, two, it was really cool because Noah gave me, like, all the looks, like, the behind-the-scenes look at two. Here was the strategy of how, like, they thought about podcasting. Yeah, yeah, was, like, a list, I don't know,

40 things that worked, 30 things that didn't, things they would try again. Like, I got to see all of this. And it was really cool for me because, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever release a book, but if I do, I know the strategy. Two, it's like, I just got to think about how he, I got to see how he thinks about launch and like go to market and growth, which was also really like invaluable. And it just opened like the connection with me and now.

Which is even more, which is really cool. That's also because I saw it. And I was like, how did he achieved it? That's pretty cool. I've been following and subscribing to his newsletter or watching on YouTube. And I've been following the launch before a million-dollar weekend. I really liked his strategy as well because he's transparent with the numbers, with the strategy, with the campaign, with everything in the newsletter.

So it's really cool. And I was very positively surprised I saw it from you as well. Yeah. So funny enough, like the newsletter tonight is actually also about Noah, but specifically one tactic, which is how he used. uses his personal brand to grow absumo. So I touched on it with Absumo a little bit, but this is like much more practical now. And I'm also starting to see like, I'm starting to think about the newsletters,

how it fits into like my business of doing found related marketing. And this is a very practical example of someone who's generating millions for Absumo because of a personal brand. And so I'm breaking down the tactic like very practically as to how he does it. Like you're saying, open and honest is like one of them. He's like authentic. He builds genuine connections with his fans or like fans, audience, where you want to call him, which is great.

And so, yeah. Are you going to mention tacos in this? Not this time, but if people look, there's one, there is a little tuck. Somewhere along the line, there's a taco. And it's a bit, it's one of the emojis I use, and it's a bit unrelated, but if you know, you would know. Yeah. And so, so I have that.

And what's really cool is like also about Noah is he reads the newsletter. So I can see this open rate, click rate, which is really cool for me. And the other ones, like, I really am happy with and people will know. Like, there's founders I know that I'm not sure people know, but the ones people know is like, so Austin from Morning Brew and then actually like just this week, Alex also subscribed. So I think, I don't know if Austin told him, but Austin also reads that content and I know he likes it. So he may be told Alex, at least that's what I'm telling myself. And that sounds like a good motivation for you to continue and produce quality content.

that you know that people like this are either. Yeah, exactly. And I won't lie though. When I saw Alex subscribed on the week, I think it's on the weekend on Saturday. I got nervous for this week's episode. I should now have to really deliver. Like, this is his first edition.

I have to make sure it's good. There are going to be big expectations. Exactly. I think it's good. I'm like putting it on myself as well. It's like, oh, this needs to be good. Yeah, yeah. It's cool.

And I think for me it's like it shows how I think about like the content is there. I just need to think about scaling it. Like, how do I get it to as many people as possible? And that's really been like the core issue I'm struggling with in the moment. The other day, like LinkedIn is a good driver. And the other day I had a post where I spoke about, there were a few posts that I did back to back.

One was like about user testimonials. And I used the testimonial from Noah and Stan, like the stand founder John. And Chris Cunningham, he's from ClickUp. It's like one of the founding members, and he also subscribes and he supports me a lot actually on LinkedIn as well. And so I had some posts where I talked about the newsletter and the growth. And then I mentioned Alex and Chris and then. And that got me like 20 or so, 15 to 20 subscribers in a day from one post, which, look, I think there's a lot of scale still to go. but it's the beginning of my LinkedIn journey really.

Like if you look at it from a grand scheme. Yeah. And so if I can scale a way where I can sum up just from LinkedIn get 20 a day. It's like in a year, I mean, it's a sizable amount, right? I mean, it's going to be like, what, 730. And so 730. Yeah. So it's like that's decent.

And then you compound it with other things. Like maybe I start posting Twitter or I use Reddit quite a bit. Like I do post my deep dots on startup or like on. entrepreneurs threats. And those are really hit or miss. Sometimes people love them. And I think it depends who sees them first. Because if people see them first and like like it, they comment.

But in some subreddit, it's like, this is spam. Or like, we want to talk about real entrepreneur issues. And you know what? I know the game I'm playing. So I'm fine if people do that. But there's all these channels. And so if I just that scale I really need to focus on. Yeah.

And what is cool, like I have about, I have a few subscribers who've referred people, which I think is a really good. typically it's like people are happy and then also I've been doing like cross promotions like I've been promoting other newsletters like when you sign up to mind of like hey I also enjoy these other newsletters. Yeah. They're just some of the like my friends I've made in the industry or like newsletters I read and they do the same for me.

I mean so that's somewhat consistent. It relies on them being consistent as well. But yeah, it's an interesting space because especially where I'm like in entrepreneurship, it's very high like high value people in terms of like clicks like. what people pay for clicks, but it's about actually scaling it. Yeah, which is the issue. It sounds like we've got a great plan, good motivation, sounds like great content.

I've been subscribing as well, really enjoying so I can only recommend it. So I'm looking forward to see the progress and where it goes. Thank God, I really appreciate that. And just to be aware of time, before we finish, are there any maybe final piece of advice from your journey? or something that you would like to share? Like, I think there's two points here.

I have two pieces of advice, and probably people have heard them before, but it's because I've noticed they're true as well. It's like the first one, I'll give an example for the second one as well, but the first one is like consistency and like showing up for yourself. Like persistence just matters.

I mentioned it a bit earlier, but it really does matter. It just increases your chance of success, of luck happening to you, but it also helps you to get better. So, I mean, the other day, I went back and looked at my earlier LinkedIn content. I'm like, yo, I've really improved a lot in these even 90 days, right? And especially the last few days, I've been getting quite a few engagements.

You know, today I had a bit of a, it was an issue and it didn't post my carousel. So I reposted, but I think that was a mistake. But that's another story. The bottom line is be persistent, right? Like, you'll learn. And you're just increasing the chance people see you. Like, I keep tagging people when I do these posts, like posting on LinkedIn about my newsletter. Not everyone sees them, but then I get the thing of like, Noah sees it or Austin sees it.

And it's like, it just means a lot, right? And so be consistent and like show up for yourself every day. The journey isn't three months or six months. Like, view it as yours. And it'll change like your frame of reference. Whereas like we often overestimate what we can do in a year as people. But like we underestimate what we can do in five or ten. And so you see the bigger picture where it's like,

This is something that can you do it for three, six, nine months, two years, three years. And just keep going. Don't think of it as it needs to work within three months. Yeah, it's cool if it shows there's progress. I mean, you need to see progress, but it's cool. There's results after three months, but don't expect it to be like groundbreaking. It might happen. It might not.

But think about the process. Think about long term. And also focus on process goals, not outcome goals. So I want to post seven days a week, not I want to reach 10,000 people. I want to post one video on YouTube a week for a whole year. Don't say I want to get to 10,000 subscribers or 100,000 subscribers near. Like the process you can control outcome, you can't always. The second piece of advice I have, and this is someone asked me the other day,

I was like, what's the one piece of advice? Like one common theme you've seen throughout all the newsletters or like the biggest theme, And for me, it's like customer obsession is you just need to be, I don't want to say like in love, but you need to be obsessed with your customer. Like for my case, it's readers. For Mory Bruce's case, it's readers as well. For Absumo's case, it's the people who buy the products on Absumo or the Absumo Plus. Like you need to understand deeply what your customers care about, who they care about,

what they want to hear, how they like to be spoken to, the language they like to read, Like all these different things that you get by repetition, again on the first point. And this is a big part is like, just ask your audience. Like you would be surprised at how willing people are, especially early on to help or like give their opinion. These are early adopters. They're going to be a bit different like a typical customer. And so you see this with startups all the time and like tech companies, like they have user interviews. They do user research.

And that's a great example. But not everyone's business like that. Right. You can be an agency. Ask your clients, what do they like about it? What don't they like? What could be better? Again, it sees uncomfortable.

They might be uncomfortable. And a practical example of what I did is I was doing the longer form newsletters. I just asked my audience, I had a feeling people weren't really reading them all the way. Like, I think people would read a little bit. Some people read all the way. So I asked, what would you prefer? The deep dives, would you prefer shorter ones? Like, how would you prefer it?

I asked them to rates like I did an NPS kind of thing to rate. to rate me like the content i did a bunch of things and posted the and to show like the power of community like how much people will actually do it is like i posted a link on my newsletter in one of the articles and forgot to change the permission sharings on the poll and like within within minutes of me uploading it i was actually on a flight so it was scheduled out before i'd even landed like it had gone out just as i was about to land i just got signal like i'd see two messages already like from people who like some actually i think it was like someone replied to the email one of my friends then who also reads message me and then someone who i don't know i was in a group with them like a group chat

and they subscribed they just reached out because like they actually just care about the content and they care they care about what you're doing and it sometimes feels a bit like surreal it's like oh these people really care about what i'm doing you but that is the power of like just ask your community and the results ended up being like 90% in favor of short content, right? So that's how I went down to it. It's like, yes, I like long form content and I like doing it. But at the end of the day, like, I am serving people.

Like, I'm serving people. And so it's like balancing your vision with how you serve people. And so like then it was about thinking about for me, how do I balance that with what I want with the results I've got? And I think is this is data informed. It's also like left space to people to comment. So I get all these like sources of reference for my customers, customers, my readers. And yeah, I say just listen, listen to your customers, but don't do exactly what they say

because that's how you become a feature factory or like you look like everyone else. You need to balance your vision with what your customers are saying because they don't necessarily always see the full picture, nor do they know necessarily what you want to do. And so like balancing what they say. If it fits in, great. If it doesn't, how do you make it fit in? Yes, yes. I look it.

Those would be my Yeah. It would be a perfect piece to advise to finish with, but also, although we spoke about it, but where can people follow you, where can find you, and subscribe to the newsletter.

Yeah, the newsleter, you can go to the 021.co. So it's the dot co, not com. And then you can find me, probably the best place is on LinkedIn. My name is Sheldon Bishop.

Yeah, it's probably the best place. I think it's my ad on, LinkedIn as well. On Twitter, I think it's like Sheldon Bishop 14 or something, but yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place. And everything will be in the show notes. So exactly.

And also the newsletter, if you respond, I respond to every newsletter, like everyone who responds to me. So if you subscribe, send me a message, tell me you came for the podcast and yeah, I'll say here. We will contest it. But Sheldon went to say big thank you. It was a pleasure, as we said before, I feel like I've known you for a long time. It's thanks to LinkedIn. but it was great to get to know you more.

I appreciate you joining me. Wish you good luck and we'll be happy to catch up anytime in the future again. Thanks for me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for inviting me on. And I've been listening to your work for a while now and I'm glad I finally could come on here and talk to you and share it with everyone. Thanks for listening to Produce By with Tomer. Check out show notes for all the links.

And don't forget to like, subscribe and leave your feedback. Speak soon.