Proven Podcast - Defied Death, Made Billions - Bobby Mesmer

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

In this insightful episode, Charles explores the entrepreneurial journey and personal resilience with Bobby Mesmer, founder and CEO of RMG Erectors & Constructors, LLC, now valued at $4.5 billion. Bobby reveals his path from bootstrapping his business to building one of the largest steel erection companies in the world, sharing how multiple life-threatening health crises transformed both his personal outlook and business approach. The conversation shifts from business strategies to profound personal reflection as Bobby opens up about facing mortality through multiple strokes and a heart attack that left him partially disabled and questioning his worth as a leader, husband, and father. Rather than focusing solely on business tactics, Charles and Bobby explore how vulnerability and self-belief become essential components of both personal recovery and business growth. Together, they challenge conventional entrepreneurial wisdom, emphasizing that true success comes from learning from failures and sharing those lessons with others—what Bobby calls paying the "dummy tax." Key Takeaways: * Why bootstrapping creates more resilient business owners than seeking venture capital * How near-death experiences can reveal your true purpose in business and life * The operational excellence formula that transformed Bobby's company into an industry leader * How embracing personal vulnerability after health setbacks can become an unexpected source of strength Head over to https://provenpodcast.com/ to download your exclusive companion guide, designed to guide you step-by-step in implementing the strategies revealed in this episode. KEY POINTS: 02:13 - The Dummy Tax Philosophy: Bobby explains his core business philosophy: "Dummy tax. I made the mistakes learned from me, right? Like, and you know, it started anybody in business, if you're not failing, you should be because that's the only way you're learning." 06:00 - The Scale of Success: Bobby reveals the impressive scale of his business achievements: "We develop that business into also manufacturing and engineering and design... We're the largest purchaser of fabricated steel in North America." 09:44 - The Problem with VC Funding: Bobby shares his strong view on bootstrapping vs. seeking investors: "When you take on capital, the problem with that is, is you're creating a crutch with the capital you're taking on because you're not going through the heartache of running a business and learning how to grow." 13:01 - The True Entrepreneur Test: Bobby explains how to identify real entrepreneurs: "It's very simple. What are you doing in the face of diversity? It starts there. When that adversity hits you, what are your actions? Either you're sticking your head in the sand or you're pulling yourself by your bootstraps." 35:53 - The Health Crisis Reality: Bobby opens up about his devastating health challenges: "When I had my stroke, I lost a whole left side of my body, like I couldn't move my face... that was the first time in my life, like, I felt real fear, you know, like, I was like, holy shit, like, this is, this is real." 37:46 - Wrestling with Unworthiness: Bobby reveals his deeper struggles after health setbacks: "You have a lot of, you know, self-awareness that comes about you through that... You start to question things and you go through so many emotions of, you know, am I really the strong? Should I really be doing this? I'm not worthy? I'm not good enough for my wife. I'm not good enough for my kids." 50:02 - Finding Purpose Through Pain: Bobby shares how he found meaning after his health crises: "I have more to do. I have more to do. I know that I've been gifted with a gift in a lot of ways. I've been gifted with a gift that I need to give back to people... if my survival through what I went through is that gift that I need to give back, that I need to give that back until it's done."

Welcome to the proven podcast where it does not matter what you think, only what you can prove. Today's guest, Bobby Mesmer, proves that's the path to mediocrity. He built the largest pre-engineered steel erection company in the world with a four and a half billion dollar valuation, not by playing it safe, but by bootstrapping through failure, paying what he calls the dummy tax and getting back up every time life knocked him down. The show starts now. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Bobby, I'm excited for you to be here. Thanks for having me, Charles.

I was good to see you, man. Absolutely. We talk about the dummy task on a high level, and a lot of people don't know who you are. I'd love to talk about a little bit of your story, how you had to pay the dummy tax on a high level for most people who don't know what that is. You paid it on a really intense level. So for everybody who's listening, let's get into it. Yeah, multiple times, man, dummy tax.

I made the mistakes learn from me, right? And, you know, it started anybody in business, if you're not failing, you should be, because that's the only way you're learning, right? That's the only way you're progressing. And that's what the dummy tax is. It's basically, you know, learning from your mistakes and then having the energy to get out there and introduce what I learned to people so they can learn from my mistakes and maybe not do it. That's really what it is.

And, you know, so like you go back 10 years ago, I took a major business hit, multimillion dollars, you know, basically just put, you know, did the business, didn't get paid for it. Guy told me to go pound sand, you know, that multimillion dollar hit doubles itself because now I lost the money, but now I got to take the money out of my pocket to pay all my vendors to make myself clean, which is what I did? Integrity is all I got left, right? And so, you know, what did I learn from that? What did I learn from that experience, you know, reflect on it, take it, and then understand it and say, you know, yeah, this guy might be a scumbag. I might want to, like, go to this guy's house and rip him out and beat the crap out of them. But at the end of

a day, like, I still have to look at myself and what was my responsibility to what occurred. And, and that's, that's the tax. That's what it is. And, you know, then it fast forwards to other things, you know, things that are out of your control, had a heart attack, had a stroke, lost the whole outside of my body, recovered from it, had another stroke last year in the eye. And, you know, you look at those things and you look at what, what that does to you in just a normal world, in your professional life, in your personal life, in operating a business, you're like, what are you trying to tell me?

You know, whether you're spiritual, whether you're not, whether, whatever it is, but you still have to look at it and say, something's trying to tell me something. What is it and what do I do with it? And, and, but those are all the mistakes that line up, you know, I wasn't taking good care of my health. I wasn't watching myself.

I was overstressed. That's all the dummy nonsense that I've created in my world that pushed me into a position to, to have a heart attack and to not be healthy. And okay, what do I learn from it? Change the way I'm eating. Be a healthier lifestyle. Change the way my lifestyle is.

Not have so many drinks when I go out on a Friday night, you know? And that's, you know, so now I go out there these days and I want to educate everybody. I want to say to them, look, here's what happened to me. Here's how I got there. But here's what I learned from it. Take it from me. Try to change now. try to try to have perspective, try to take your business and do something a little bit different with it.

Still accelerate, still put your energy into it. But even yourself personally, if you have personal goals, put your energy into it, but don't make the same mistakes that I did. That's where it starts. Right. So you had a lot of mistakes, but you've also had a lot of success. Could you kind of get the audience caught up on what type of success you had? Yeah. So my business, I've been a business 25 years.

The business that I currently have is my long running business, RMG erectors and constructors. We're the largest pre-engineered steel erection company in the Northern Hemisphere. So actually the world at this point right now. So great success there. We developed that business into also manufacturing and engineering and design. So we're manufacturing our own steel. We're engineering it, detailing it, and then erecting it.

So we're the largest purchaser of factory. fabricated steel in North America. So, you know, and that's great success in that business. Over the last 15 years, I've had two other companies. I formed the distribution company that I sold to a publicly traded company. And then over the last five years, I had another franchise company that I built up and ended up selling that as well. So a lot of success there.

And really what I did was is it's about finding avenues. You know, my success was driven by just being a driven person, you know, putting yourself in the right positions, you know, growing strategically. I bootstrapped everything in my business, which makes me, in my opinion, a better business person because anybody can start a business and take on capital from somebody, but that doesn't make you a good business person. It's easy to run business when you have money, right? 100%. Worrying about payroll really, you know, and how you're going to make it next week, that's what changes the ballgame, Charles. You know what I mean? Like, you got to go through

that in order to deal with it. So, yeah, we've built a, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're, We have a $4.5 billion dollar valuation right now in our company looking to sell in the next five years. And, but it doesn't come without struggles. You know, I tell everybody, they're like, they're like, oh, you've been on a great trajectory. I'm like, man, I've been almost bankrupt every three years, you know, like if you're not almost bankrupt in your company, you're doing something wrong, in my opinion. Absolutely. And we talk about this all the time that you're never going to succeed your way to success. You're only going to fail your way to success.

It's kind of like we have a little child who's walking and little firstly going to walk. They're going to fall in their tush a lot. That's good. Luckily, they're in diapers at that point. But that's the only way they get it. And society changes that ballgame. You've done and had radical success while also having radical health problems from strokes and heart attacks. When someone sits here and they want to know the proven stuff on how to get started and how to get moving.

Because I agree with you, taking on capital, whenever I hear someone, hey, I'm doing my next round of VC ratings. I mean, I always disconnect a little bit of that. I'm like, if you're, for me, if I can make enough money, then I scale. If I can't make enough money already with what I'm doing, why am I going to go get capital in order two scale. So it's always this paradigm that is a little different for everyone else. You've done this where you've bootstrapped it on your own. For the people who come in and they say, hey, I want to go through angel investors or VCs and all that, why for you is bootstrapping better than the VC world? Because it's too easy, right? Like, anybody can have an idea and take that idea

and then take money and then try to develop that idea. But if you look at the amount of companies that have failed, like just Google, Google the companies that failed last year and look at the amount of capital that they took hundreds of millions of dollars and you failed all that meant is to me is that you had a good idea look there are people that are meant to be business people and there are people that are not i think i think that everybody has the aptitude to try it and i think everybody should try it that that that's not naysaying and making people stay out of it but but there are business people and business mindset which are they are non-risk adverse people and then you got the risk adverse people and they're the ones who shouldn't be in business because you're too worried

about the risk right so i i think when you take on capital, the problem with that is, is you have a great idea, but all you're doing, in my opinion, a lot of times is, is, is your, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're creating a crutch with the capital you're taking on because you're not going through the heartache of running a business and, and learning how to grow and you're not learning the things. Because when you take on the capital, those people are coming in and they're implementing people from their business. They're saying, well, we're going to put a controller in place or we're going to have a CFO manage this.

You're not learning how to manage your books. You're not learning how to pay bills. You're not learning how to read a P&L. All you had was the idea. So what kind of businessman really are you from the start? You know? And it goes back to the beginning, too. A lot of people who start business, right?

Typically, they work for somebody. You know, like, so they work for somebody. They learn that business and they say, I could do this on my own. But then what they are is, is they're a rubber stamp of the business that they came from. Well, I always say to you, what are you doing? different, how are you changing the market, and what are you doing better that your competition isn't doing? And a lot of people can't answer that question. And because they're not doing anything better. You're just the same company competing in the same market, with the same pricing, with the same

margin. Well, how about create, differentiate yourself? Differentiate yourself in the market, differentiate yourself in what you offer, and differentiate yourself as a person and as a business that makes people look at you and say, wow, I really want to deal with that person. And when you take on money, unfortunately, it stops that vision because you're also curtailed to the way that the people who are giving you the money want you to operate. Yes. Absolutely. And I think there's a couple things to hit there when you take on that money. It does kill all the lessons. But it also kind of puts the pin back in the grenade. What I mean by that is if I ask you to sing happy birthday, please don't. You could probably sing happy birthday relatively well. But if I put a live grenade in your hand and then ask you to sing happy

birthday, you're probably not going to be executed as well. Having other money come in takes away that drive, that intensity that, as you know, entrepreneurs don't have bad days. We have days where we don't want to have any more days. And entrepreneurs run into situations where 80 hours a week is a nice day. That was light. That was a light week for us. We put in some serious hours. When someone's sitting down and they're like, okay, this is someone who's radically successful, where whatever you believe in, tried to kill him multiple times and he's still successful, how does someone sit down and go, you know what? How do I identify that I am one of those individuals

versus how I'm not one of those individuals? Because I agree with you. I think there's entrepreneurs. And then there's people who have entrepreneurial like traits. They are not the same. And I walk them through a very specific test. For you, how do you identify and how do you, you know, figure out, hey, this is a business owner,

this is an entrepreneur versus someone who's not? It's very simple. What are you doing in the face of adversity? It starts there. When that adversity hits you, you, what are your actions? Either you're sticking your head in the sand or you're pulling yourself by your bootstraps and you're like, I'm going to figure this shit out.

It's that simple. It's one or the other. That is a true business person. The guy that says, I'm going to figure this out. And then when the adversity hits, it's the person, I say guy, guy or lady. It's the individual that literally says when the adversity hits, what am I going to do about it, right? Too many people are making excuses and they're not reflecting.

They're not, I mean, you hear me say that a lie. Business is all reflection. What do I do? How do I change? How do I migrate? What, you know, and everybody makes an excuse. Oh, you know, I can't pay my bills because this, this guy didn't pay me and this and that. Well, why didn't he pay you? You know, like I get a lot of people that don't pay me, but I look back and I say, well, why didn't he pay us? What can I do different that allows me to get paid on the next one, you know? And, and, but we keep chugging forward. I'm not, okay, yeah, I'm, I lost, I'm not getting paid a million dollars over here,

but business has to move on. What am I going to do? Go hide in my closet and rock in the corner? You know, but that's, you can't, that's the difference between the two types of people. And it's really because there's too many business owners. I mentor a lot. And some of these business owners are like, ah, you know, I'm, I just don't know what to do. And like, how about like, hold on, suck it up. Get yourself together and make some decisions and move this forward. Yeah, but that's just going to require me, require you to what, to do some work?

Mm-hmm. You know, look, man, get out there and get to it. You know, this is what you chose to do. Get out there and get to do it. Nobody else is going to do it for you. But they're just, they're the people that are, they're going to fail. They're going to fail. We talk about this all.

There's a great quote. It's called Outwitum, Outfasium, which is Latin for either I will find a way or make away. And I agree when they go into that. When they have those things and they want to get started or because you've had intense adversity, you've had, you know, multiple heart attacks. You've had multiple strokes. There was that one thing that we won't talk about publicly.

Um, so you had those. You run into those. What are the ways that you do pay yourself back up? Because we could talk about it. hyperbole like hey you know you just you pick yourself up by the bootstaps or here we go what is it the ways that you have found that when you've been physically beaten down like hey you can't move the rough side of your body anymore what are the ways that you found to survive that that it was struggles yeah that's a really good question i i like for me it's it's nobody believes in me more than i

believe in myself and it's and it's realizing that and and knowing that i have more to prove to myself right um for me it's It's always about, it's not about the money. And everybody says that. They're like, well, that's easy to say because you already have it. You're already making, you know, millions and millions of dollars. But it's not. It's about proving to myself how much further I can go.

So I, and I remember, you know, my wife and I had a real, real, real honest conversation, like the last time that I had one of the strokes. And she was like, you need to maybe start taking a step back. We need to maybe sell a little bit sooner. And I'm like, no. I'm like, I'm not done yet. like I haven't proven to myself that I can be what I want to be. And she said to me, she goes, what more do you want to be?

You're the biggest at this. You're the biggest at this. Like, and it's no comparison. Like, you've already set records. Like, you've already are the modern day Carnegie in this business. So what is it that you more you want? And I said, I haven't hit the level of Carnegie yet. Like, I want my name to be synonymous with that.

But not from a monetary standpoint, from a control standpoint, from how much I'm doing. I need everybody in the world to know what we're doing and who we are. And that's what drives me. And so that's where I get it from. And it's about the belief. And look, my wife is my biggest believer. She's my biggest advocate to me. But she's also concerned about me.

She doesn't want to lose me. So I understand where she's coming from. But at the same time, I'm no good for me. I'm sorry, I'm no good for anybody if I'm not good for me first. And so for me being good for myself, it's about knowing that I'm accomplishing and that every day I'm pushing my envelope and pushing myself to the edge. And if I'm not doing that and I can't do that, then I'm worthless. I might as well give up.

And so I think that everybody has that in on. I think that a lot of people, though, in the business world or even personally with whatever they're doing, they're trying to do it for somebody else. And I think when you convert that mindset to, I need to do it for me. What happens is, is your push and your energy becomes a little bit different, you know, because you're not trying to impress everybody else. Now you're setting goals for yourself, and those goals really change where you're trying to go. I also believe those goals change as you get closer to them. It's the never-ending hunt because all of a sudden, I remember when I was like, hey, one day I'm going to make a million dollars. I'm like, this is, and then everything

is going to be wonderful and butterflies are going to fly out part of my body and everything's going to be great. Like, nope. And then I was like, okay, I need a wealth ratio. And a wealth ratio for those of you playing at home, if you make $5 a month or your bills are $5 a month and you have $10 in the bank, your wealth ratio is too, really simple and easy. And I was like, I needed to have two months. And I was like, no, I need two years.

So it keeps changing. To become the best and to become elite at what you've done, there's some tactical steps that you've done. There's some things that you do differently that other business owners do. There's things that are proven for your success. If you sat down and you could talk to you 20 years ago, 25 years ago, what would be, okay, these are the tactical things you need to do now. To talk to myself, I would tell myself to pay more attention to differentiation.

I think that that's super key in anything, any business, you know, differentiate yourself. 20 years ago, I don't know that I believed in myself as much as I do today. You know, I'm 48 years old, you know, so 20 years ago, you know, I was five years in the running this business, I believed, but I was more headstrong in my belief as opposed to more calculated in my belief. And there's a distinct difference between the two, right? How do you get populated like that? I think that's where I'm going to push towards is that tactical calculation. Yeah, I think it's, it's, I think it comes with maturity. I don't know that I, I, I, I, maturity changes a lot, right? You start to settle down. You're not as angsty or, you know, you're not like angry at things like,

you know, and that's just, that's just maturity. Um, that tax. Um, that's, um, that's tax. Um, And this comes through through the trials and tribulations of not only what you deal with in life, but what you deal with in business. And so you and if you're and the only way to become tactical is to take all that information, absorb it and use it to your, to your benefit and to make it, make it like a superpower to yourself. That's the only way to you become tactical with that. Because if you're ignoring it all, you can't. You're not going to have that savviness because you've seen it. You've been there. You've done it.

So I think that answers your question, but that's, you know. I think we're, you know, when business owners come to you and you talk about you mentor and you connect with people, what are some of the first things you look at? They're like, hey, I want to be like you. And maybe they have the drive. Maybe they don't. Maybe they have the get up and go. Maybe they don't. But when you're sitting down and you're going into a business and you're taking to look at it, what are the first things you attack?

Is it finance? Is it marketing? What are the things you go after first? Yeah, I think it's absolutely. After you get a general understanding of the business, you know, what is it, what is it that you're doing? Where are your struggles at? Where are you trying to go? You know, get all that format down. First thing is, is number one, where are you financially? Yes, definitively. I mean, that's a good snapshot of the whole health of the business, you know, most businesses

that are coming to me to mentor are struggling financially. So it's not news, but, you know, I want to see how bad they're struggling. And then the main thing, operations. Operations is everything. And everybody misses that point and how you delve into the operations. And any business could turn itself around through streamlining operations. And that's really where I start. I dive into it. Look at how they're structured. Look at how many employees.

Look at how they're doing things operationally. How the workflow moves. Do they have clear and decisive process and procedures? You know, are they billing appropriately? Are they even estimating projects appropriately? Because a lot of them aren't, you know, like they give an estimate. it and then, but, you know, and I'll ask them, well, what is your true cost to what you're proposing? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, how do you not know what your true cost is against

what you're proposing? You know, and like, so, so that's where you dive in because you can fix anything through operations because it's the operations that get messy that spill over that are what costs are costing you to money. And mainly because what I see is a lot, not a lot, but some business owners that I do consult with, they start making money. And they think that being a business owner is sitting back, putting your feet up on the table, or going golfing every single day and letting the business run itself where, look, you've got to be in it, you know, no matter what size business. So when you look at operations, do you see a differentiation between operations and systems? Are those two different things for you?

One requires the other, but yes, they are two different things in my mind, right? because your operations require systems to be in place that your operations has to follow, and one can't drive the other. So your systems have to drive your operations, and that goes into process and procedure. Your systems are your process and procedure. And if that's not clear and really delineated and really laid out for your team, then your team isn't going to be able to do what you're expected to do because they're going to be a mess. They're going to be like, when is my next turn?

If you're handling something on the legal side and I'm handling something on the operation side, but your legal side has to become first and mine comes second. If there's not a clear process and procedure about how that flows, how do I know when I'm supposed to do my job when your job's done? So how do you build those out when you're working with people? Because the biggest thing, I know you came in on the financial side, whenever I've helped people out, I always go mentally first. I'm like, okay, who's showing up?

What type of version of you is showing up? and then we can pivot from there. Because I've always thought that if I give all the strategies and everything that's made me on relative success over here to someone who's mentally not showing up in an effective manner, it doesn't matter what I, it doesn't matter what I do. So when you're working with the human behavior side and you're working with that and you're trying to build those procedures

and walk those through that, how do you deal with that? Well, I think, you know, you're going to find out real quick operationally. So when you know what everybody's job is from an operational standpoint, then it's a matter of putting, the onus on those employees within that company and saying, okay, this is your job, right? Okay. So my first step is always, especially when we take a deep dive into the company, it's always to sit down with each each and every person and each and every department.

What is your job? What is your job function? Make sure that they have a clear understanding of what their job is. Okay. Do you need anything to do your job? No. Okay. Great.

So you don't need nothing. Then I'm going to monitor you for the next two weeks and we're going to, and I'm going to amplify what the expectations are of you. And then that's how you learn the mentality of the people. Because in my opinion, you learn it through what they're producing. You learn it through, you'll see their attitude and their work product very, very quickly. So I just take a different approach than you do. If you're taking it from there first, I'm taking it from their second because I'll,

they'll show their true colors very, very quickly. And so then it's, so then it's going back and saying to them like when they're not producing and they're not being efficient and they're having a bad attitude or showing up late or whatever, it's being able to sit down with them again and say, remember when we sat down two weeks ago? I asked you specifically what you need to do your job and you said nothing while you're failing in all these areas. So I'm going to ask you one more time. Is there something that you need because this is the last time? Because if I have to ask you again, then you're going to get fired because you're dead weight at this point.

And you're not wanting to be here. We want people that want to be here. And so, and that's a hard conversation to have. but people start to really get into and they're like, well, wait a minute, I'm going to lose my job. Well, yeah, because you're not being efficient. Efficiency requires this. This is what your job requires. If you're not willing to do it, I'll find somebody else that can.

And that's the reality of it. And I feel like the second part of that is, is we live in a world where everybody wants to sugarcoat everything nowadays. Like, nobody wants to have those hard conversations with people. And I find that most employees inherently want to do good. They inherently want to be good for the company. and likewise they want the company to be good for them. And they want to be pushed. They want to be valued.

And so not enough people are doing that because it's like, oh, you know, I know you've been coming in late the last five days. And can you really just stop doing that? Listen, I'm docking your pay now that you've been late the last five days. And this is the reality of the situation because it's considered theft at this point. If you don't like it, you can find another job. I think there needs to be that harsh conversation every once in a while. There's also like, you know, if you're in a situation like,

I really don't want to have that conversation. No problem. Don't have that conversation with that employee. I don't mind whatsoever. Go over to the other employee and tell him that he can't feed his kids. So that's the two conversations you can have because that's what we're really doing here. We're here to make money. Absolutely. So and one person's a drag. And one person's a drag. You're dragging down everybody else. You know, and then you're making that one person becomes a cancer because they're making the other employees miserable because they got to pick up the slack for that other employee. And it's just you're creating a culture that doesn't exist. You know, that shouldn't exist. And you need to have, that's where the culture side of the, the business comes into effect. So how I was just going to go there? Because once you get through the process, you know, how do you build or redesign a culture when you come in? Because people think, well, I'm going to write some things on the wall or get some posters and that's going to be our culture and it's going to be great.

Like, mm-hmm. How do you actually build a culture that does get to be the biggest and the best and where you are get those billion-dollar evaluations? You know, the culture is driven by the leader, you know, and that's just my firm belief. You know, if you're whoever the CEO is of the company, the culture is driven by who their CEO is. And because everybody wants to follow that. A true leader will come in and create a culture that people are happy to be a part of, that people can get with. And it starts with a leader and a CEO who is somebody who gets in it with the people, who knows what's going on. Too many CEOs,

especially in large companies, small companies, no, but really large companies, extremely detached. They have no idea what's going on at multiple levels of their company. And you hear it all the time. You watch these guys, they testify in front of Congress and all that, these big CEOs. And all they are is paper CEOs. They don't know any of the first thing about their businesses, you know. And that's a problem. And that's why they have a cultural issue. You need to lead from example.

You need to be in it with the people. You know, I know for myself, when I, in all my offices, when I visit it, I spend time with each and every employee. I walk around. I talk to each and everybody. You know, what can I do for you? I listen to what they're dealing with. and I interject and say, hey, you know, I heard you have this conversation. I heard you're having a little bit of trouble.

Here's my recommendation maybe next time try this, see how it works. If it doesn't, you know, then it doesn't, but try it. That interjection makes them feel, makes people feel like they're part of the team, you know. Too many business, too many business owners, CEOs, even middle management. I'm responsible for this. Well, I did this. How about the we factor? You know, I talk about that a lot.

Like, I use we all the time. This isn't me. You know, yeah, it's my name on the door. The buck stops with me. I'm responsible, but it takes a team. And it's the we factor. We're all involved in this. We are going to look into this.

We are going to try this. We are going to do this. That creates a culture where everybody feels like they're involved. I ask for feedback, you know? Here's what I'm thinking. I don't make demands on anybody and neither should anybody else. Look, this is what I think that we should be doing. What's your thought process?

And most of the time when the team believes in you, they're going to say, yeah, I like that, you know? And if they don't believe in you, that's when you're going to get 10 people in that same room saying, well, no, I don't think that'll work in this and that. It's, you know, so it's hard to create the culture, but it's about being part of the team. And I don't think that leaders spend enough time with their teams to develop that culture that they should because they're so, they keep themselves so separate. I'm the CEO and I belong here at the top and you belong down over there and you work for me and I pay your bills and stop, man. And what are we talking about? It just becomes a lot of nonsense.

It's interesting when we talk about leadership and leading. I learned from an operator. He sat down. He asked me, he goes, where should leaders lead from? And my default knee-jerk reaction was the front. He goes, nope, you failed. I'm like, excuse me? He goes, your team needs to know that you can lead from the front, but they don't want

you there. They're going to pull you out so that you can make decisions over here. But if you haven't built a culture where they know, like, hey, if I fall down, even the CEO is going to come in and install computer. Like, are you still in an IT company? Everyone who worked for me knew that I was going to dive under those desks with them, no matter what, they just didn't want me there. If you're diving under desks, you're not putting out other fires that are way beyond my pay grade to understand and do. But if you haven't built that culture of, yeah, we know our guy is going to lead and he's going to jump in there.

We just don't want them there. It's a completely different narrative when it comes to. Totally different. You're a thousand percent correct. And they want you to dip in and dip out. Yeah. Come in, dip in, help, and dip out. That's valuable to them.

You know, not micromanaging, not stand over top of it, not do anything else. But yes, put out the fires, biz dev, be the head of the company, but know that you can be there when they need you there. You can't replace that. That is the ultimate culture icon right there. And having your employees, and I know it's a really wild thing, the people you work with tell you get out of your way. Like, okay, got to move. That was one of my favorite things in the world. Like, okay, cool.

My bad. But building that is hard. And I think it starts with hiring. people. And that's not an easy process. When you start doing this and you're hiring individuals, what are the things you're looking at? Let me give you an example. Whenever I hire lawyers, I always want to hire the guy. I'm terrified of my pull. That's my life. That's my guy. Whenever I would hire IT guys, I want to hire the guy that was annoyed by me. If I asked him a question during the interview, I'm like, tell me at a SQL database, how do you build an active

directory? He'd be like, ugh. And they were just telling me, and I'm like, that's a guy I want, you know, because now I'm annoying him. I want the guys who are on spectrum in that one. When you're hiring leaders, what are the things you're looking for? Yeah, that's a hard question. I tend to think that I'm not very good at hiring. Like I, like, you know, I really, I say that, you know, like, I think you get a gut feeling about people, right? And I think you got to go with your gut. I feel like that's the one time when you're hiring somebody. Like, like, because it's not always about, like, everybody wants to look at a resume or everybody wants to look at your schooling and this and that. Like, I got to be honest with you. I rather hire people without a college education than with a

college education because of my opinion, the people without the college education are going to work harder for you and be further in it and not so expecting of things where the people with a college education, they're too expecting, they demand too much money and they have no experience and they say, what? I went to college for this. You have no real world experience. So I think for me, I look at that and then it's about a gut feeling. Like it's just, you know, when you sit down with me, do you understand what we're talking about? Like I like to talk a little bit technical about the business, you know, and, you know, and, you know, And do you have a concept? You know, I don't ask all those cliche, like, questions. I don't make you take the personality test that I think are stupid, in my opinion. It's the more scopes for entrepreneurs is what that is. Oh, my God, it's dumb. I don't know why companies do that. Like, it's just, it's almost like somebody came up with the idea and convinced somebody

to pay for it. And it's just, it's, you know, it's just a money scheme, in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to what you were saying about CEOs as being completely disconnected. Instead of sitting down and putting the energy and learning the personality of the individual, oh, they're going to take this test, which we've already scientifically proven is just bupkis. It doesn't work. Because if you show up angry and you take the test, you're going to get one result. If you show up joyful and you just had a lot of fun with your misses and you had a lot of

right. Exactly. That's going to create a whole different personality. Right. It's a completely different result. So I think that goes back to the leadership's not showing up and wanting to fight to fight. Right. Yeah. It's it's hard. And it's hard to pick people, especially because, again, there's so many personalities out over there and you don't want to leave out certain personalities because there's some people where you think they're not going to be great for you and then they end up being phenomenal for you know so hiring people is hard nowadays i will say that like i don't like we i don't envy that process in anybody and anybody who's a hiring manager it's it's difficult because like you know like i i mean even like we've hired temp agencies or or or headhunters to find find certain level people for us

they do all the all the look the leg work they're like they give you the applicants and are like we vetted these people this and that they come in and they're suck and I'm like absolutely like like oh my god like what did you vet them based on because they're horrible like so like I think too many people can be fake out there which I think is also a problem and that's become more challenging in the social media world so I think the hiring process is just it's it's about a gut feeling and like I just go back to this like I have an example like we had some kids come in from an engineering school to be engineers on our company. And they're coming in and they're coming through the door and they're like, you know,

I have an, I have an engineering degree and I have a construction management degree. And I'm like, okay, like, well, here's the job. And they're like, and they're like, yeah, well, you know, I want $150,000 a year. And I'm like, listen, okay, I don't ever hold anybody back from wanting what they deserve and I'm, okay with that. But here's the thing. This job doesn't pay $150,000 a year to start. You have zero experience.

Oh, no, but I have a degree. Okay, you have a degree. No problem. You pull out a spec book and I'll throw it in front. front of them and they're like, what is that? Get out. Yeah. Like, you have no real world experience. That is the Bible for what we design and what we got to do. And you don't even know what it is. You know, like, get out. Like what, so that's, that's the hard part, right? That's what you're dealing with in this day and age. And it's too many, too much too, like overvaluing people. Like,

I love to pay people more than what they're worth. I love that because you get a lot of value out of somebody and it really adds to the culture like we talked about of, of the business, because, because you're not overpaying people, but giving them more than what, them definitively what they're worth, it says to you, I'm valuing you as a person. I value your position and I value what you do for the company.

And let's continue to do this, right? And I notice that you get a lot out of the people when you do that. But at the same time, I'm not just going to overpay you right off the bat because I have X, Y, and Z. And that's the hard part, is trying to figure that out. Well, I also think it's not always just financial.

So there are certain people who they don't want just the financial, or they want the flexibility going, listen, I got to go pick up my kids at three. I'm like, okay, then come in earlier. Having that loyalty to the person you're working with and vice versa, there are all these soft benefits that work and you need to know the individuals. But again, to your point, if you're not in there, if you're not in the working with them, that's never going to happen.

I think the best advice I ever got on hiring is like if you have one job, hire five people tell all of them that you've got 30 days. One of them is going to survive. Probably none of them. And then because that way you're just speaking out that process because you're churning and burning. Because if I know if I have an opportunity in my org, I'm like, I'm going to hire five people all at the same time. They're like, wait, what? I'm like, all five of you at the same time.

Let's play the game. Because we're outsourcing a lot of this stuff for graphic design. I'm like, all right, all five are you going to create stuff. One of you might be good enough, but I'm trying to catch up time wise. So, you know, people talk about all the time that your most valuable thing you have is your time. And having spent eight years in hospice, I can tell you it's not. In any way, shape, or form, time is not your most valuable thing. And the reason I tell people is if you got polio, from the neck up, you're doing great.

From the neck down, your body doesn't work. You're stuck in a Coke can for 90 years. Tons of time is zero health. I believe health is above all else because, again, I've just been around death so much because of hospice. You've had your health ripped away from you multiple times. Walk me through that process as someone who, you know, you're hitting the ball out that, you're making the millions, you're successful, you have someone you're madly in

love with, you guys are going through that process. And then all of a sudden, whatever you want to call it decides, okay, we're going to numb half your body and we're going to give you a heart attack. And we're going to give another stroke. And congratulations, your eye doesn't work anymore. And then when your ear falls off or whatever it is, when you're running into those, what are you doing? What does that feel like to have that going, oh, God, I can't wipe my own butt anymore.

Yeah. It's very defeating, you know, like I'm a six foot four, 280 pound guy. Like, I'm a big guy, you know? And so, you know, I'm a presence. I'm powerful. I can lift a lot of weight. You know what I mean? Like, I demand a room.

Like, it's all those things. Like, I got to tell you, man, it beats you down. It gives you perspective. It's hard to go through, you know, like it's hard. You have a lot of, you have a lot of, you know, self-awareness that comes about you through that. I mean, you know, you've been through it, right? Like, so it's, you know, you start to, you start to question things and you go through so many emotions of, you know, am I really this strong? Should I really be doing this?

Should, you know, I'm not worthy. I'm not, I'm not good enough for my wife. I'm not good enough for my kids. I'm not, you know, like, and then, you know, and then you got to snap yourself out of all that. Like, that's just human nature, right? That's just what you deal with. And, you know, I mean, and the fear, I mean, I can tell you as a person, I'm not scared of really anything. You know, first time in my life, I was really scared.

You know what I mean? Like, really, really scared. Like, I felt what that was the first time of my life, especially when I had my stroke. Like, because when I had my stroke, I lost the whole left side of my body. Like, I couldn't move my face. And I still have an eye droop. You know what I mean? Like, you know, a lot of people can see it once I pointed out of it.

out but um that was the first time my life like i felt real fear you know like i was like holy shit like this is this is real like life is life is really coming at me and and you know you know and i'm a spiritual guy so like i'm like you know god what are you trying to teach me like what what what's what am what am i supposed to learn here and um you know so yeah it's it's it's uh it changes your your perspective on life it changes your perspective on people it changes your perspective on relationships. You know, my, my relationship with God changed, my relationship with my wife changed, you know, and, and, and it's just, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's not fun, you know,

it's not, and it's not supposed to be, but you're constantly living, like, I, I still live in a world, like, you know, again, a year after my stroke, I, I have a stroke in my eye and I lose partial eyesight in this eye. And, and it's like, you know, again, like, what do, like, and again, like, you start losing, when you, it's one thing. to have a stroke and then come back from it and, you know, and like, okay, I got some numbness in my face. But now I'm losing my eyesight and it's like, you know, that becomes even scarier. You know, you don't realize how depending you are on your eyesight until it's gone, right? And then you're dealing with that.

Well, I mean, anything. I mean, I remember when I sprained my wrist and all of a sudden I couldn't use my hand. I was like, I use this for everything or a strain a finger. But what I want to kind of celebrate here is most people, especially in our industry, especially in our niche where we're sitting there. we are entrepreneurs and this world of alpha males and that nonsense, most people don't show up and have worthiness conversations or vulnerability conversations. Most people will not do it. And they don't understand that on the absolute of complete vulnerability is,

is utter strength because that's how you show up. And one of the, because we get pinged all the time for people to come on the show, the fact that our first call that we had, we talked about this. I was like, I want to have that conversation about vulnerability. And I wanted about worthiness.

Because there's a lot of people who go through the equation of, if I do this one thing, I'll be enough. And if I'm enough, I'll then be worthy of love, which is a broken equation. From the, from the base of it, it's completely broken. But that's what we're taught, right? If you make your bed, if you do your homework, if you get good grades, well, then I'll be, I'll celebrate you as a parent. Therefore, you're enough. When you had that all ripped away, because I know you were horrible in school, when you have that, I'm unworthy.

And you're having that, I'm unworthy for myself. I'm only for my kids, my wife and all of that. That's not an easy conversation to have. I've had it multiple times. multiple lines. Like we were talking before we started recording that, you know, you're an open water diver. I'm an open water diver. And I get seasick on a massive level. And I'm out there as a support diver trying to rescue these guys, bringing them in, making sure that they're relying on me. And I'm sitting on the boat, throwing up everything I've had since kindergarten. You have these unworthiness conversations. And,

you know, we talked about the only way to succeed is to fail. Every time I fail, oh my God, what am I doing here? What is this? What am I not listening to? Anytime I go on up on stage, If you ever see me on stage, for those who are listening, just look at my right knee. It vibrates because there is that unworthiness conversation. That's imposter syndrome where you're like, you get nervous. And I love that part of it because I use it as a fuel source. I haven't had to face it on the levels you have. When you have to face those, you know, when you're having the conversations with God or whatever it is about I'm not worthy as a husband, a father, a man or whatever it is, those are tough conversations.

How do you walk through that? What is the proven path out of that? I don't know that there's a proven path to it. I think it's individual for everybody. And it's, I think it's, you know, for me, it was, it was, what am I taking out of it? Right. Like, after you go through all that emotion, you kind of start, you know, again, it's all the levels of emotion that you go through, right? You know, the, the anger, the hatred, the, the sorrow, you know, and then, you know, and.

And, you know, for me, I think it was just, I have more to do, you know, like I have more to do. Like, like, I, I know that I've been gifted with a gift in a lot of ways. You know, I've been gifted with a gift that I need to give back to people. And that is not just through entrepreneurship. It's through philanthropy. It's through me educating people on business and educating people on just, you know, telling them that they're worthy enough to keep going and to keep doing. And so if my survival through what I went through is that gift that I need to get back,

then I need to give that back until it's, until it's done. And so for me, that's what it is. It's, it's just continuing to do and to give to people. To be a better receiver. You know,

I've always been bad at that, like receiving gifts and receiving accolades from people. you know, everybody's like, oh, well, you're out there and people are telling you all these great things all the time. Yeah, but it's hard to receive, you know, because I'm always the one that that should be giving. That's the way I've always thought. And I still think that way, but I have to do better at that. So I need to take from people more and be able to take what they're, what they want to give to me because that's a form of giving back. You know, I never realized that until, you know, I really thought about it. And so I need to be better and I need to give, I need to give more of myself to people, which is why I do. stuff like this and I speak and you know because that's me giving myself to people because if I can help somebody through their journey by them listening to my journey then that's me doing what my purpose is here. So I think it's that and and it's just believing in that and saying like I'm I'm blessed and I'm capable and this hasn't stopped me and I think that everybody I'm being used as an engine and as an example for people to to look at and say, man, my, my problems aren't so big

after what he went through. And if, and if I can help that person, even if it's just one, then I'm, I'm on the winning side. That's it. It's just, it's a conversation that I learned from my grandmother, leave the planet better than you found it. That's simple. Yeah. And I think you and I both shared, and it's a coping mechanism, or at least I believe it is, and I'd love to have your insight. I, it's very hard for me to receive gifts. And for a long time, it was because I grew up very poor. And I was like, I'll buy it myself. I don't want to take money from you.

And that was the external reason versus the subconscious reason. The conscious reason was I don't want to take from someone. You know, I don't want to reject them. I don't want to say, okay, you bought me this thing. I really don't want it. That was my whole external BS. But the subconscious was, I don't think I'm worthy of receiving this gift for whatever they were giving me.

Have you had that experience as well? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I think that even till this day, like, you know, when somebody does something for me, you know, yeah, that's, that's the underlying factor that you have to bring to the surface and no, that's exactly what it is. I'm not worthy of it, you know, I'm not, I didn't do anything to deserve that from you. So, you know, so now I need to go out and do something to deserve what you make to do. Right. And it shouldn't be that way because what you're doing is you're stripping away the benefit of the person who did something

for you or gave you something. You're stripping away what they got out of giving that to you. And, that's what we have to remember on our side, right? Because you and I, we look at it and we're like, hey, I want to do this for you. And because what, like, because I know it's going to help you. And I, and it's gratification to my side to say, I'm doing a good thing and all that. So if they reject it, they're stripping that away from our, what our need is in giving that gift. So, so it's very secular, right? And you got it. So you just have to remember that. But yeah, no, it happens all the time. I say the same thing. I'm like, no, I'm not worthy of that. Why are you doing that for me? it happens because you speak on stage and you and you mentor as well.

There's so many times where, you know, someone will come in and I'll get them to whatever goal they want or they have it from either being on stage or working or any of that. And they're like, you might, man, you change my life. This is amazing. And the first thing that goes through my head is like, no, no, this wasn't me. This was you. You did this because I will automatically push it away because I'm like, I'm not worthy of this, this, you know, this praise. And it's something that.

Well, you don't know what to say, right? Like sometimes you don't know to say, thank you so much. You changed my life by what you said. I was really going to, like, I was going to quit doing this, but now I'm not because you gave me inspiration. I don't know what to say to that. Thank you. You're what I like, I don't, I don't, thank you. Yeah, like, I don't, because I'm not deserving of it. I can tell you that. Like, I'm just, I'm just a guy. Like, I'm not like, but, but like, we have to move past that as people. And, you know, we have to be able to, again, give them what they're looking for in that. Like,

we did truly help them, but we're, we're truly not looking for anything out of it. Like, you know, and that's hard. It's a hard place to be. It really is. It's part of the evolution. I think as you talked about when you were younger and you talk about maturity coming in, the first thing is, you know,

we have this anger. We're like, I'm going to prove everyone around. Let's go. You want to go? Let's go. And there's this, again, we're guys. You know, yay testosterone. And you're getting into people's face.

And then all of a sudden you reach a level of success. And I'm okay, I'm safe now. And then you have this abundance and you're like, okay, I want to give back. And it's just weird as you mature as you go into service to others. And it's a wild transition. But hopefully knocking on as much wood as I can find that I don't some of the trials and tribulations that you've gone through

because I've seen a lot of that on a higher level. So when people have, you know, survived cancer or, you know, loss of limb or those type of things and you walk through and you're like, how, how? I know there's a bunch of speakers out there. There's a gentleman that I can think of. I don't remember his name. No arms, no legs. I'm like,

okay, I'm not about to complain about anything anymore. I'm like, he's got an hitch on his nose. He's screwed. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, you're going to talk about it. Like, oh, I'm going blind in one of my eyes. He can't scratch his back. You lose.

It ain't so bad anymore, isn't it? It ain't so bad. It's not so bad. So I think perspective is important, humility, but also I think one of the biggest lessons that I took out of our conversation is being patient with where you are with what's going on, that you're always going to have insecurities and you're not going to feel worthy because if I walked up to most people, say, here's Bobby, he's a billionaire. People would be like, okay, and he doesn't feel worthy.

They're like, wait, what? Seriously? Because they think that money defines the man. And I think it's the service to others that defines a man. How you leave, and this is where I'm not religious, my family is Jewish. The idea when you die, then I go, I would ask my grandfather before I die. He said, what happens? He goes, you die.

Same thing happened when you were born. What was it like waking up? Have you never gone to sleep? And I was like, okay, he goes, well, that's what it's going to be like when you go to sit? When you die, when you just like go to sleep and never wake up. It's really, really simple. I said, well, then what's the point? He goes, because you will be remembered of how you impacted and affected other people as you go through it.

And that's always been kind of the shoreline for a lot of what I do. It's a lot of self-absorbitance when you're younger, you know, and it's getting away from that self-absorance to understand how you need to impact. And when you're younger, like, I have a 17-year-old and he's self-absorbed and he's just, you know, it's his world. We're just living in it. But, but, you know, like, and I remember being that way, you, I'm certain that you were that way.

Like, we all were. Listen, we're guys. We are the quintessential. self-absorbed idiots. We still are. I love that you added idiots there because that's important. For the ladies listening, please understand we can't help it. We're naturally this stupid. Right. We are

predisposed to be idiots from the time that we come out of the womb. That's it. Absolutely. 100%. Accept us for what we are, please. We are simple things. And I'm sorry. We are. We are. I'm sorry. Me, me man, me need a woman. And we're just dumb. We're just simple creatures.

So when you understand that this is where people are going through, going back to the business side, there's a lot of people who will never get to have this conversation with you, never get to sit down and talk to you and have this one-on-one. When you meet with people and you're like, hey, this person's suffering, be it, they're trying to figure out their business, they're trying to scale, they haven't had this evolution. What is the wisdom that you can dispose, share with them, English, first language,

that you can share with them that is like, hey, this is what I've gone through. I wish I would have known this because then you can go through and you can rock and roll with it going forward. Yeah, I don't like, I don't know that there's any individual piece of wisdom because again, I think it's catered to the individual type of person, right? I did a mentoring session yesterday and,

and woman business, been in business for 20 years, you know, been ups and downs, you know, and she's struggling right now. And, you know, so I walked her through a lot of stuff, gave her a lot of stuff. And at the end of the conversation, I said to her, I said, look, here's the thing.

I see what you're struggling with and I literally called out her struggles every single one. And I could see like she started tearing up a little bit and I'm like, here's, I believe in you. And it only takes one person to believe in you

for you to move forward and do what you got to do. Listen, you have the capability to do this. I believe in you. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Get your shit together and do it. And that's what I said to her. And she,

her face just lit up and changed. And I think that that's a lot of what it is. I don't, it's not about wisdom, you know, anybody can instill wisdom. And a lot of people think that they have wisdom and that they, they know what they need to say to people. I think it's more about like, look, you're not doing bad. You're where you need to be.

You know, we just need to clean this up. You're doing great. I believe that you can do this. If I believe in you, I need you to believe in you too. I can't be the only one that's believing in you. I think that's the biggest thing, you know, you talked about when you were sat there and you had the strokes and you had all the stuff and you decided that you should probably eat healthy, just saying,

fast food is bad. So as you're going through that, it's yummy, but it's bad, is that self-belief. And I know it sounds cheesy and I know it sounds weird, but take it from someone who's worth more than I will ever be that. And I'm okay with that. So that you've got to have this self-belief. And I think you rise to your highest belief system. And the reason I said what I just said, which was, you know, more than I will ever be is

because I know a lot of people who are hard bees, right? There's a lot of people have a lot of money. So for those who are playing at home, there's millionaires, and then there's billionaires, billionaires are card hard beats. It just is what it is. That's what we call it in this world. I know a ton of them. I know what it takes to get there.

That's not me. I know that there's people who make it to the MBA. That's not my gift. That's not my journey. I'm not willing to sacrifice X to get Y. When you're doing this, there's a certain point where I'm like, this is good. I think you rise to your standard and your expectations. I think you also fall to your standard or expectations.

If you look at the number in your in your bank account, you look at the number on the scale, those are absolute representations of your standards on the highest level. So I think having people go through and share that, hey, this is the belief system of how it works is phenomenal. Now, if people are tracking you down going, all right, Charles, you talk way too much, I want to talk to Bobby. I want to get a hold of Bobby. I want to be mentored. I want to have these conversations. How do people get a hold of you?

Where do they reach out to you? Where are you speaking? What is the best way to get in your circle and get through their energy? Yeah, social media, as with anything else, right? You know, Bobby Mesmer on LinkedIn, Bobby Mesmer on Instagram, Bobby Mesmer on TikTok, message us, contact us through there, reach out. You know, my team will get back to you. And, you know, we'll happily, you know, open up some dialogue and some conversation. Social media is the best way.

You know, you can see what's going on in my life. You can see where I'm at. We have a, I have a ton of podcasts and speaking engagements coming up this year, which will all be talked about. out on the social, so anybody who wants to be a part of that. I did an event with Dave Meltzer yesterday, co-hosting within. So I'm always out there, always doing, you know, different types of podcasts and live events all over the place. So yeah, anybody, feel free to reach out, please, I welcome it. You know, I would love to hear your stories, love to hear more about what you got going on and love to help you if you would love help because, you know, that's what this is about. You know,

love to mentor, love to coach and, you know, love to just have a general conversation if that's what you need. You know, sometimes people just need to have a conversation that just ups them a little bit. And I'm happy to just have that too. So when is the, we talk at the moment of sign. We're like, okay, I've made it. This is enough. We talked about for you that you might not have that. Is there a, and I think I'm asking this more for your misses than anyone else, is there a moment where you do sit there and go, okay, I'm good. I can exhale. Yeah, I don't know that I've hit it yet. That's a no. Bobby, I don't know that I, Bobby, I I just wanted to squeeze that one in there.

Yeah, that exhale was 100%. Nope. Yeah, it's, it's, you know what it is? It's, it's, I look, 55 is I'm done. You know, I know that. I'm 48, 55. I've always said that. I've said that for the last 15 years.

55 is my number. Wherever I'm at when I'm at 55, I'm definitively done. So I am setting myself up for that. And, you know, so, so if that answers your question, that's where it's at. So wherever I'm at, broke, bankrupt, on the top of the world, wherever I'm done. That's it. I think the misses will be really happy with that

and we'll send her a countdown clock. I appreciate you going on. I really do. Thank you so much. Bill's. Thank you so much, man. I love being here, man. Appreciate your time.

Real entrepreneurs don't just survive failure. They seek it out because that's where the learning happens. Every three years, every setback, every moment when you're almost bankrupt, is just another tuition payment in the University of Business.