Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast - Psychology and Inside Out 2: A Breakdown of Adolescent Emotional Lives

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

In this episode, Dr. David Puder, alongside guests Rachel Blackston and Dr. Eric Bender, dives into the psychological insights presented in Pixar's Inside Out 2. Together, they explore the complex emotional world of adolescence, focusing on the challenges Riley faces as she navigates new emotions—like Anxiety, Envy, and Embarrassment—that reflect common experiences during teenage years. Through expert analysis, the conversation unpacks how these emotions influence identity formation, self-doubt, and social dynamics. The discussion also addresses the impact of childhood experiences, how adolescents process peer pressures, and the role of parental responses in supporting emotional growth. Join us as we delve into the film's depiction of teenage mental health and its psychological accuracy, providing parents, therapists, and teens themselves with valuable takeaways on emotional resilience and self-discovery. By listening to this episode, you can earn 1.25 Psychiatry CME Credits. Link to blog. Link to YouTube video.

All right, welcome back to the podcast. I am joined today with Rachel Blackston. She is the co-owner of a thriving group practice of 20 plus therapists here in Orlando. She does intensives. She has three daughters, which I mentioned because we are going to be talking about Inside Out, two, which is about coming of age females. And we are in the thick of it, me and Rachel together. Mm-hmm, yes. And then we have Eric Bender, psychiatrist therapist. He was on my episode on The Shrink Next Door. He practices in San Francisco. He is my go-to referral in San Francisco, probably too booked to receive any of my patients, but I send it to him nonetheless. He is on YouTube, on GQ's online show, The Breakdown, Wired Magazine's Tech Help.

And yeah, it's great to have you all join to talk about Inside Out too. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us. So I was thinking we will kind of go through sequentially through the movie. And if you haven't watched it yet, this will be full of spoilers. But I think you will still enjoy the movie nonetheless. Before or after you view this. And we will be talking about this.

this kind of like adolescent coming of age, right, for females. And yeah, so inside out one to two, there's a transition of characters. There's addition of characters. So I was thinking maybe we could like set the stage for kind of the beginning of what happens when puberty arrives, right? So Rachel, do you remember that moment that the red button came on in on the the console. Yes. Yes. Oh, I felt it. A wrecking ball comes in to the scene and starts dismantling and disrupting. And that's sort of what it's felt like in my household. Okay. Yeah. So there's this

kind of like a new device that preceded the puberty button showing up in which happiness took this memory, which was kind of maybe not something she wanted Riley to remember, and she put it in this, like, container that shot the memory all the way to the back of Riley's mind into the unconscious. Eric, do you remember that? Any thoughts on? I do. Yeah, Joy has this device, and she says, keep the best, toss the rest.

And she launches all these memories that she doesn't want in the back of the mind of Riley Anderson, who's now 13, whereas in the first. Inside Out, she was 11. And at this point, she is transitioning to the next school in her life, and she learns in the beginning of the movie that her friends Bree and Grace are not going to be attending the same school with her. So this is really rocked her world. So in addition to the puberty team coming in and suddenly wrecking what was there, rewiring everything, she's also got this sudden new set of feelings of, wait, I'm not going to be with my friends, what's going to happen. And that paves the way for this introduction, for a new character, a new set of

characters, and that includes anxiety, one of the main characters that we're looking at in this film. Yeah, it's kind of like, there was another scene. I don't know if it happened before anxiety or not, but this idea of like, if you remember from video number one, there's these kind of core experiences, like Sport Island, Family Island, and all of a sudden, Friend Island, like, blows up in size, and then Family Island gets like shoved to the back of the mind, and Rachel's having to, Rachel, you're experiencing this in real time, right? I am, and I'm grieving this a bit, that Friend Island is flashy and fun and exciting. And, you know, those willow tree angels used to be popular years ago.

Family Island kind of backs up, and it almost looks like this family of willow tree angels in the background. But I think I've tried to ground myself in knowing that part of that is, is because of secure attachment that, you know, Family Island is able to kind of pull back. But yes, I think when David and I were discussing this at one of our daughter's basketball games, and I had my other daughter, who's almost 13, coming up to me, just, you know, scanning my phone. Like, have you heard from my friend yet? Is she coming with us?

Yeah, yeah. And so this is all playing out as we were talking about Friend Island. Yeah, I like that scene as well, David. I'm glad you brought that up because it is such a reality, as you're both describing. And also, as parents, I think it's parents' job to let that happen, to realize that friends are going to become more important, take up more space, and family isn't going to be as important. And that's okay. It can be sad. It can be painful.

But it's very much a natural part of development. Yeah, I was just having this patient yesterday. who was commenting on someone she knew who was still hanging out with her mom every day, you know? Didn't have a lot of friends. I've had other patients where it's kind of like they're stuck in that pre-teen stage where they watch Disney videos with her mom.

Mom still fast-forwards the scary parts. And when we look at that and the person's like 30, we're like, whoa, what is going on here? But there's something difficult. And I think there is a grief. Rachel, I'm glad you mentioned that there's a grief almost with like letting go a little bit, right? It's like, yeah, that's a good idea to let go. But when it actually is us, when it's happening, it's like, whoa, you know, what's going on here?

Yes, it's like longing for an inside out one, you know, kind of the ice skating with her parents was sort of front and center of these core memories. And suddenly that's fading back a bit. Yeah. And I think the sense of self is something that's new and inside out too. And I really, really was fascinated by this. And I really love this part of the movie. And so her sense of self are these kind of like hand chosen memories by happiness. You know, that's how it starts out, right? So they're good memories. They're memories where she's a good friend. She's a good person, right? And so they take these special memories. And what do they do with them? What becomes of that? My understanding is they end up becoming these core parts of this sense of self. And it does really mirror what I see as a child psychiatrist and understanding development. And as a parent, too, seeing my own daughter these things, these are parts of who you are. And I think a lot of times in the adult world, we see people who have not had a core sense of self like that.

But these are things you do need to feel. You do need to believe you are important. You are a good person. You are a good friend. You are a good daughter. Good son. doesn't just have to be female development. You are a good person.

And these form this sense of who you are and how you interact with the world. So we see she has a foundation where she has these core beliefs and a sense of self that's intertwined with these different thoughts and ideas. Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up because what do you guys see in patients

who haven't had that, right? Maybe they have six different types of adverse childhood experiences in their childhood, right? Maybe they have physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, domestic violence, witnessing parents using drugs and alcohol. And Riley doesn't have any of that, right? And so Riley's like not necessarily the kid that we see who struggles with a lot of issues

that we see that are extreme, you know, negative internalized aspects of themselves that it's really hard to overcome. Any thoughts on that, Rachel? I'm so glad you brought that up because I think what we see primarily in the film is in the realm of normal development, where there is a sense of self that's developed, like, that Riley has made it through those early developmental tasks. Where I think when I've worked with clients where there is early abuse or neglect, they may have already developed a deep sense of I am bad or I am worthless, where they have not. you know, they come into adolescence without that, the ability for that parent island to kind of shift into the background. There is no parent island. And sometimes they're grasping for like, okay, who are, like, where can I find these positive role models? And sometimes they're not,

you know, until they find maybe their first therapist or maybe their first therapist is not a great fit, you know, and maybe that's a bad experience too. So I was thinking about this with like, how different this is with like some of these clients I've seen where they've been in and out of foster families or they've you know they've been homeless before they're homeless type of thing where they've they've had so many different families they've gone through and now they're struggling with you know self-harm and addiction and yeah that sense of self is not really formed yeah Eric what does this make you think of or what does this bring up for you what it brings up for me is a theme in the movie and I know you mentioned spoilers at the

beginning. So I'll try to mention things about mentioning specific details. But no, no, no, let's just spoil away. Okay. Okay. We got to just say what happened. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of Inside Out, the end of Inside Out, too, the theme is you have an integration of all of these different feelings. They all exist together. And what I find is that really does mirror one sense of self in that these ideas, these core ideas, I'm a good person, I'm a good friend, that sits there.

with I'm not good enough, which is a repeated phrase that Riley's anxiety comes up within the movie. So all of these things coexist and create a sense of self. I think in individuals who didn't have those good positive core beliefs, there isn't a balance. There's just a belief I'm not a good person. There's just a belief I was not good enough. If a parent wasn't present, what I often see is this internalized idea as a kid, because thinking there's something wrong with your parents is almost, in my opinion, the equivalent of death, like who's going to take care of me? Kids don't think that way,

and they're not consciously thinking of this, but I think they internalize an idea that there must be something wrong with me. I must need too much. I must be overwhelming. I am bad. My needs are bad. That's the only way they can understand they're not met. So I think when someone doesn't have those positive senses of self, they have these dominating voices of, I'm too much, what I need is wrong and it really does cause a lot of dysfunction later in their life yeah so i think that one of the most powerful parts to me was this this sense of self so it starts out with their these positive kind of core positive experiences that happiness kind of like hand chooses to be part of this tree which is the sense of self and then that gets thrown into the back of the mind as anxiety takes

the forefront. That to me was like such a picture of kind of like a what happens almost in a trauma. I know there's not exactly, it's not exactly a trauma that she's experiencing rightly, but that's what I've kind of seen in a sense of what happens during a trauma. It's like that sense of self is sometimes that that softer, more gentle, more loving part of themselves is like hidden, right, in the back of their mind. Rachel, do you feel in that? I, I, I, you know, Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I felt the split. I felt the fragmentation in that moment where literally part of Riley's memory gets sent back.

And it leaves her sort of vulnerable in that, you know, next part of the movie as she's going in and trying to navigate peer relationships. And she doesn't have her full sense of self with her. So hard. Yeah. Yeah. So what happens is anxiety starts to bring memories that are anxious memories down to develop a new sense of self. And what do you think anxiety's motivation is, Eric, in kind of this process. Well, like, what is anxiety trying to do?

Yeah. Well, I think it's worth pointing out something even before anxiety steps in. You brought up this mechanism that joy is created to launch these bad memories into the back, ironically, that's anxiety right there. She doesn't want any of these bad memories. What's going to happen if these bad memories are here? So we see a little bit of anxiety brewing in joy herself. And then when anxiety comes in, she even says, oh, we've got to think about Riley's future self. You know, we've got to figure out how we're going to deal with this in the future. So I think the purpose of anxiety is trying to serve here is how do I ensure that

everything's going to be okay in the future? How do I make sure that we're not going to have no friends, but we're actually going to be in with a popular hockey crew, and how are we going to survive? So I think the purpose here is anxiety's mistakenly thinking, okay, if I do all this stuff, everything's just going to be fine. Yeah, I love, I think that is such a crucial addition that you said that happiness, this character happiness, is sending these kind of unwanted memories to the back of the mind out of a sense of anxiety. Yeah, I didn't notice that, but it's so true. And that's how it happens in real life.

That's how it happens in real life, too. It's like if memories get labeled or maybe memories are like, they're dissociated away, they're denied, they're thrown into the back of the mind. And then they come out in dreams or they come out in slips of the tongue or they come out in bigger emotions, right? Scary emotions. Yeah, and I think, I don't know about both of you,

but if you've had that experience where patients come and say, I just want to get rid of these memories. I just want to get rid of this feeling. I just got to get it out of me. Similarly, they want to launch it to the back of somewhere and never to think about it again. What I always tell people is, we have to figure out a way for you

to move forward with those memories. It's not about getting rid of them, but how do you move forward with them? How do you integrate that part of yourself into your life? It's always going to be sad when you think about that. It's always going to be painful when this is a thought that comes up.

It's always going to bring up this emotion. So how do we move forward with that? And I think the movie does a good job of showing. It's exactly what Riley ends up doing. I couldn't agree more, I think, with our clients and patience. And then I also think as a parent, I mean, true confessions here is that sometimes, you know, in these moments of distress, I feel panic. You know, my dashboard activates. And then I want to sue something in my daughters that end up.

up repressing it for them. And they've even, you know, they're sharp enough to say, mom, would you just let me feel this? And so I think, I think culturally, we do the same thing. You know, there's so much pressure as parents and teens for kids to be well, for them to be happy, for them to be well adjusted, that oftentimes, you know, we participate in this process of repression and suppression without really even knowing fully what we're doing. Yeah, and I think that's illustrated in the movie, too. The parents, actually, I don't know if you caught that part. Right before Riley's about to go to camp, she's like,

I'm never going to make this team, I'm not going to do well. And the parents, like, don't think that way. And instead, let her have that worry. Like, that's really worrisome to think that way. Just acknowledge it. And I think that can be hard to do. I know that can be hard to do with a parent. But it does, it is universal.

So I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, Rachel, I can totally resonate. Sometimes I'll say something like, no, it's going to be okay. And my wife will be like, is that the kind of stuff you say to your patience? And I'm like, I guess it's not. But somehow it's harder with my kids, you know? It's like easier for me to help my patients sit with their emotions than it is my kids. Like, what is that?

You get so much more invested in your kid. You want so much for them. Same way you want for your patience. but it is different. It's like my therapist hat is not always on, right, at home. You know, I just did an episode with Paul Watch Tell, I hope I'm saying that right, on disavowed emotions. And he's a therapist, and here's some quotes about disavowed emotions.

Disavowed emotions do not disappear. It gets expressed in ways that are often more destructive than if it were acknowledged and addressed, directly. Yeah, so it's this kind of idea of Riley disavowing her emotions early on, her parents disavowing her emotions early on, her sense of self kind of disavowing the aspects of herself maybe that are more shadow-like or more dark or more, you know, a mixed experience, right? Yeah, what's interesting is there's a scene when Riley arrives at camp and she's just learned, Bree and Grace will not attend the same school. And the emotions

in her head are talking. Like, no, keep it together, keep it together, keep it together. But then they give sadness a moment. Like, okay, sadness, go ahead. And they let sadness express herself. And I think that's what you're talking about, David, is having the moment when you can express those things and realizing if you don't express it now, it's going to come out in some other way that's not going to serve you very well. Yes. And how naming it and honoring it takes some of the power away. And if not, you know, it's like holding a beach ball underwater. It's coming out all different, it's popping up at all different places sideways. Yeah, I always tell my patience, I remember the scene in Harry Potter where Dumbledore tells Harry, because Harry says, oh, he who must not be named, Dumbledore said, will you stop that?

Just, just name it. Otherwise, it has too much power over you. It's the same thing. You know, name the emotion. You have control over it. You have some agency. Yeah. I think, so anxiety, the new character, anxiety, is taking these new memories that are kind of anxious memories, and she forms a new tree of self.

And one thing that kind of like was a surprise for anxiety was when that tree spoke, the words that the tree spoke were, I am not enough. and I was just at a track practice for my son and there was this eight-year-old girl. I didn't know her. She was running. I was watching her run these sprints. And I knew that I knew she could go a lot faster. So I was like, hey, I want to see from you next time.

Just go all out. Just one time. You don't have to do it anymore after, but just one time. And she went all out and she beat the whole group. And she's like, I can't do that again, though. I could not do that again. And like I was like kind of like trying to be positive and try to, you know, just like, well, you can choose to. You can choose to when you want.

You can go, you know? And like later I saw her running a lap and I was like, just say to yourself over and over again. Yes, you can. You know? And her pace picked up and she smiled. But it's kind of like this idea of like, yeah, we need these moments in our life that it's not just anxiety driving the sense of sense of. right? That was a particularly emotional moment for me in the film. It's just that anxiety had set out to protect her and did not realize. I mean, it was, anxiety was frozen in shock. Like, oh, no,

you know, this is, this is not the plan I set out for you. But anxiety in isolation without the collaboration of the other emotions. This is where we landed. Yeah, I also found, I don't know about the two of you, I did not like the character of anxiety. She was grating on me more and more as she had more screen time. And I think that reflects anxiety in real life. The more it takes over, it's uncomfortable. Like watching it, I was cringing. I was like, when is this going to be over? And I think that's very much how people with anxiety feel sometimes. Like, when can I stop worrying about this? When can this just like calm down? But that's exactly what I felt when I was watching.

It's like, ah, this is too much. Yeah, I believe that joy says at one point, how do we get rid of anxiety? And then she says, maybe we can't. And I think that that is at the core of every person that struggles with anxiety. Yeah. I was thinking about the imagination station that they come to in the deep mind. So you have like joy and sadness and disgust. and, you know, they're kind of stuck in the deep mind,

and they come to this place, which is where imagination is. And they're like, oh, great, we're an imagination station. And then they realize that anxiety is taking it over, and anxiety is using all of the powers of Riley's imagination to spin up new potential fear scenarios so that anxiety, of course, can plan and predict. And I know what that's like. Like, I know, like, 100% what that's.

that is like to have your full imagination just churning out every potential bad scenario and then like your brain is trying to come up with like okay if this happened then I would do this if this happened then I would do this and I've come to the realization with my myself that I am the best prosecutor of myself like that anxiety that imagination is like the best like I am like I am the worst prosecutor of myself but I'm the best is the best is and imagine like a good lawyer, like a vicious lawyer coming after yourself. Like that's how I see imagination being turned into kind of like this factory of potential bad outcomes.

And then you just can't turn it off. You're waking up at the middle of the night. You're waking up early in the morning. You know, and you just have this like nonstop churning of like all of the force of your mind against you, right? so to speak. Do you guys kind of resonate with that or any thoughts on that scene? Yeah, I've noticed anxiety literally holds the other emotions hostage and sends them away. So to me, it was this great representation of how anxiety does take over and it takes over the

imagination station. Everything's orange in there and joy sneaks in and tries to come up with other ideas and it's like something's trying to take over anxiety, but it's just completely covered everything. And that's what happens. So that's how I took that scene. Like, wow, this really does reflect just the massive power and dominance of anxiety sometimes. Yeah. I really appreciated Eric you talking about how visceral it was to watch anxiety. Because I think when anxiety comes on the scene, I mean, she kind of looks a little bit like a frugal.

Like she's frazzled and she has all this baggage and she's smothering. But she was a little bit likable for me at first. But by the time that she hijacks Riley's imagination, and we know Riley's imagination from Inside Out One, so I had a special affection for Riley's imagination, and then to see it taken over in orange with all of these scenarios, it was very distressing, actually. Yeah.

What's that movie? You probably, Eric, you could probably call it better. It's about that schizophrenic patient that, like, his paranoia is just next level, right? Because he's super intelligent. You know, he was like an MIT guy. Do you know what I'm talking about? There, I do, I forget the name of the film. There were a couple ones that come to mind, but I, I'm getting the idea.

So one of the ideas that- I think it's a beautiful mind. A beautiful mind. Oh, yes, yes. Okay. You know, the thing about a beautiful mind that struck me was you have a super, super-intelligent person. who when he creates paranoia, it is almost 100% believable because it is so nuanced and complex.

Like it would take a really intelligent person to say, like, no, like, these don't all line up, right? It would take you being there to see, like, no, there was no, these things didn't actually happen like that, right? And so it's kind of like that. I see that with higher functioning patients with anxiety. like when I see physicians or, you know, since the audience who listens to this tends to be mental health professionals, I'm kind of speaking to us right now. It's like you're smart enough to get through school. You probably have higher IQ than average. And because of that, when you get anxious, the anxiety is more sophisticated, you know, kind of like in that beautiful mind. And this is kind of

that theme that I see in that imagination station. It's like, yeah, imagine like this beautiful, that normally probably helps every single person that comes into your office. And now that's like turned against you, right? Yeah. I don't know clinically if you see this, but with kids I will see young kids, three, four, when I'm talking to parents that I might be seeing individually,

that's when I think the really scary stuff comes up for kids, because if they're smarter kids, especially, they can imagine anything. And as human beings, we can imagine anything. That's one thing that separates us from all the other animals. So I think you're right that when you can imagine such a vast amount of things happening, the anxiety can be really, really sharp and really acute and really awful. Yeah.

Yeah. And I actually think, so I think that when adolescence hits, there's something about self-consciousness, insight, increasing. And so for a lot of the patients who start like self-harming or cutting, it's kind of like for the first time of their life, look at their family and they realize how awful their family is compared to everyone else's. And that's like part of the self-harm where I think almost anxiety starts the way that I've seen it with like seven or eight years old. And I'd be curious, Eric, if you differentiate like

visceral childhood anxiety from like kind of that adolescent anxiety. I think early on you can see separation anxiety disorder at a pretty early age. Yeah, it's pretty early. See that. And then even before that, stranger danger. So you can certainly see. anxiety come up in different ways. I think the adolescent anxiety in what was portrayed in the film is this self-doubt that starts to creep in.

And what I found interesting was in the movie that that sense of self that you mentioned glowed whenever Riley was with her friends, when she helped Grace pick up all the pennies and developed a friendship, the sense of self kind of blossomed.

And I think she forgets that it is being herself and being who she was that actually makes it so she's not alone. So she has friends. And then there's this doubt that creeps in around adolescence. People want to know who are they? Where do they fit? How do they see themselves in school or with a group of friends?

And when that comes into question and there's lots of doubts, I think that's what I frequently see in adolescence. And I'm trying to remind kids, well, how did you become friends with the people you're closest to? You were yourself. So maybe be yourself. See what happens. some people might not like you.

That's okay. Some people will. Would you ever want to convince somebody to like you? Does that make sense? So I think that's what I see more in adolescence on the clinical side. I don't know if you, Rachel, or if you've had a different experience, but that's what I tend to see. I like how you put the, it's kind of that, the doubt of what the other's mind is, right? like when her friends had a look on their face

she noticed it before they said that they were not going to the same school and I actually really enjoyed they showed actual micro-expressions if you've been listening to this podcast for a while we've done a bunch of episodes on micro-expressions they're like one-tenth of a second flashes on the face of emotion and she zooms in and it kind of shows the slow-mo down and together of like frustration or anger and she's like what oh something is going on I don't know what's going on.

And what we know for patients, for example, with borderline personality disorder is that they mismentalize other people's facial expressions more often. And so they're constantly picking up and trying to read, sometimes out of anxiety, of not wanting the other person to abandon them. So there's sometimes misreading or sometimes over-reading people's facial expressions.

And it's just like part of the process of helping them to sort of lessen that intensity of the mentalizing, and to properly mentalize, right, to not mismentalize. So I think about that with anxiety as well, and that sort of process of like the insight, but also the self-consciousness and that kind of magnifying as a teenager. Rachel, what's going through your mind? I think as you both are speaking, I'm feeling compassion.

you know, thinking about just more stimuli coming in because you've got the social pressures, you've got your internal world, and now you're navigating these faces and these impressions, and it's of the outside, and that has a lot to take in. Yeah, you have this maturation of the prefrontal cortex, right, which enhances self-reflection, social cognition. You have this heightened activity in the limbic system, which is going to look at this kind of sensitivity to emotional, social cues,

contributing to social anxiety. One thing that I liked about this video is the normalization that this has happening to everyone. And I feel like in kind of the new TikTok, self-diagnosis culture, it's like, is there a place for these normal experiences? Right? Like, is this, can we, can we, can we, and I think this movie came at the right time to kind of say, like, hey, everyone's having this experience and it's okay, right?

Yeah, I think even my daughter recently got into American Ninja Warrior. She really likes watching it. She doesn't, doesn't want to participate, but she wants to watch it on TV. And there was one teenager who mentioned it's okay to not be okay. And he took it a little bit further, said, and it's okay to ask for help. And so I think in a way, this does come at a time when people are much more open to hearing that. And this generation of young people, they do seem to be struggling with some things. But I do think they're open to hearing that people are struggling.

So I do think it presents in these ways. Yeah. And I love how you talk about the sense of self, kind of like lighting up when she's around the friends, her friends. Yeah, it was clear to me that that's, it. And that's the irony here is your sense of self feels so good when you can be yourself. And when you remember that it was you being yourself that made you feel close to people

that helps you develop relationships that draws people to you. And I think sometimes kids need to be reminded of that. And that's really hard to do. It's hard to stick with that when anxiety can be so dominant the way we saw in the movie, when it can be so powerful and so much like a blanket just covers everything.

smothers everything. I love that line, Eric, that, you know, the sense of self and being yourself. Because I think for me, you know, one of the crescendo moments of the movie is at this particular scene when Riley is having her panic attack. And she's in the penalty box. And she is absolutely, you know, trying to find these ways to. ground herself. You know, she's holding on to her hockey stick. She's seeing the sunlight come in. She's paying attention to the sounds that are happening out on the ice. But underneath is also the moment of the integration of her shadow side. You know, when the, when the, finally, these

negative memories come back, um, into her awareness. And she can say, you know, this integration of I am a good person and sometimes I'm selfish, you know, I am good enough and I'm not good enough, you know. And I think that she also has that repair with Grace and Bree. And it is this full moment of like, you know, when joy kind of comes back, like she's calling for joy. And that joy comes from a sense of compassion. But it's, it is so telling that she is herself in that moment. It's when that sense of self comes back that she's able to kind of feel joy and compassion and connectedness again. I love it.

I love it how you notice that it's like that integration moment, right? That peak moment, kind of the culmination of the movie with this panic attack when all of those memories that were in the unconscious kind of came flooding back. And one thing that came to me when I saw that was like, I think in reality that takes years. That is a process that I've seen patients take years doing, right? Yeah. Eric, what are you thinking? I was thinking about what you both said,

and that moment when things do calm down and the panic attack, so many things are happening at once in her mind. There is that integration. It's the integration of, okay, I don't need to just be this old sense of, I don't need to just hang on this old sense of self the way Joy was trying to desperately to do. but I can mesh these things together. I can't have moments of anxiety.

I can have moments of feeling bad, but I can have these moments of feeling good and feeling like I'm a good person and a good friend. And maybe there are moments when I'm not a good friend. And that's part of being human. And you're right, David, I think it takes a lot longer than a three-day hockey camp to make that happen. But, you know, that's the magic of Disney. Well, and it is, isn't that the work that we're all still doing, you know, integrating our shadow part into a sense of who we are and welcoming these kind of disinvaled parts of ourselves.

Right, right. And coming back to this theme of like, can she be herself, right? A lot of these new emotions, like there's this Enwe, which is like boredom, I'm probably saying it wrong. Onwea, who's like sitting on the couch with the iPhone type of thing, too cool for school. The only time expressing anything other than boredom is when, she loses her cell phone. She's like freaking out.

That's so true. My favorite part of Onwee is that she has half of a sock on. It's like she didn't even have the, it wasn't even worth it to put the full sock on the foot. And it's like this, like, how do I disguise myself to be cool, right? And my daughter's already doing this a little bit. She's like, dad, cool kids do this, you know? And like for basketball, it's like, cool kids, like walk in. their crocs and then put on their nice basketball shoes. She wants to be like, she notices,

and she's so, she's so observant of like what the cool kids are doing, right? And there's that moment where the person drops the coins, right? And she has this kind of like, oh, you shouldn't associate with the uncool kid, right? And then her other part of her says, no, you should, help out. And so she goes, helps out and it's this wonderful connection moment, right? Yeah, and that builds her sense of self. That builds that relationship as well. And I was thinking about this kind of disguise, like the first time she kind of lies outwardly, well, I think I think the second time was about music, right? And inside... The boy bands were no longer cool, I guess, to her new friends, right? That her and Grace and Brie loved.

So she lies about, like, the music. And then inside her deeper mind, there's, like, an earthquake and joy and anger and disgust our back there, like, going, like, what's happening? You know, like, it's, like, harder to find maybe her true self, or it's harder for them to come back in the midst of that. And he thought, like, do you, when you guys watch that, did you think of, like, this as, like, a further disguising. of a true self or how did you see this? Well, I think what developed is what they called sarcasm. That's what it was, is that chasm opening up, and it was sarcasm. So anything they said on the one side was misinterpreted on the other side by the workers

in the mind. Like, you guys are the best crew ever. And like, it's interpreted as, you're the best crew ever, you know, jokingly and sarcastically. So to me, it was like, oh, there's this loss of just being able to be honest. Why is this happening? I don't believe that adolescence has to be all stormed drong. I think it's actually a time when there's a lot of good things that can happen. And so when I watched that, I'm like, oh, it doesn't have to be this way.

So it was definitely a cringe-worthy moment for me. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like it's almost like there's a moral aspect. And I'm wondering if you saw, if you see it in those terms at all, it's like this kind of like a loss of sense of self, you know, moving away from who she really is to sort of fit into this new group. And then her friends are there to kind of be like, no, you just went to that band. We had a great time. And so it kind of then she has to further go into that, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that was part of this.

Oh, well, I was just thinking that was part of the scaffolding of as she starts to, you know, because the memories at that point, am I correct? They've already. been sent back. And so she's losing something. Anxiety is pushing her, conform, conform, you know. And so as she does that, I do think there's some kind of splitting, you know, that's going on inside her that is a bit hard to watch. And then all of a sudden we can breathe again, right? But I do think that's just a natural part of adolescence, you know, just, okay, this.

This is normal to maybe feel some embarrassment over something childish that we liked. Because right, the boy bands are kind of now being put in this other category as part of her past. Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, that's good. It's like they kind of like, it's kind of like I like it, but I don't know if my friends will like it. Like there are definitely those things that my kids do that we like to do, but she's not going to tell anyone at school that she likes doing it, you know?

Yeah. And I think in a way it is a chasm you have to cross. As you said, Rachel, there's a splitting almost, a splitting off. And so the lands in her mind splits. And you have to find one way to justify that, across that over, that you're not being too full about something that really is, but does mean something to you. And how do you leave that behind?

or do you leave that behind? It's also possible for a kid's sake, yeah, I kind of like the boy band still. I know not everybody does, but kind of still like it. What are they going to do? You know, you can own that. That's another thing I often tell people,

just own who you are. Yeah, and I also have empathy for people who have varying degrees of revealingness to different social groups. You know, it's like, yeah, you're not going to be completely honest with, you know, people you might not know very well. You know, there's parts of yourself.

You may be. hesitant to reveal and I think that's okay as well. It's like people with no social veneer at all who are just completely themselves. Sometimes it's like almost, you know, go ahead, Rachel, what are you thinking? Oh, I was just thinking about really agreeing with what you said. And some of that is sort of a natural way, I think, for them to survive. And I think about David, when you talked about your children, I was thinking, oh, they get to find

that freedom in coming back to a place that's fully safe and that they can like anything and that you champion them and that. And I think about, you know, my almost 13 year old daughter that when she comes home, she can be so silly.

I mean, so silly. And I'm, and then I'm really aware of like, oh, she's been navigating a world of coolness all day, you know. And there are some disavowed parts, but thankfully, those parts are still safe in our family. You know, and I think they kind of go, they cross that chasm back and forth, even on a daily basis, if not an hourly basis. Yeah. I often tell parents, too, that if your kid does come home from school where they've been trying to hold things together for a long time, if they are not pleasant to be around in a way, it says something good about you.

It says they know you can handle that. They're not worried about you crumbling if they're not going to be the way. the nicest kid. So I do think you're right. There are many different ways that at home they can be somebody that they are, feel things that they feel they don't want to share with other people. Sometimes, like people with higher functioning Asperger's, like what I've seen is that they'll have no social veneer. I don't know. Eric, am I off in your sort of experience of that as well? I think, how do I put this? Social veneer is an interesting term. Let me put it a different way. there was one student that once worked with me,

and I asked him, like, you know, I've asked a lot of people, hey, can you give me a review on this, like, app I was creating? I was creating a micro-expression app. And I think this guy had higher-functioning autism, and he gave me the most accurate, but a very sort of scathing review. Like, point by point, all of the mistakes I made.

Whereas, like, a lot of people with, social veneer who want to impress me, who want to get into psychiatry. Like, I know they're going to have a harder time telling me the truth, right? I don't know. Has that ever registered in some of your experiences as a child psychiatrist?

Yes. I know what I often tell people is, I mean, autism spectrum aside, what I'll tell people is, well, know your audience. You know, how you're going to respond to your friend might be not the same way you respond to a teacher and it might not be the same way you talk to a parent.

And so almost code switching that idea of, okay, how do you, how do you be yourself in these settings? I think you're right that there are some people who don't know how to do that, don't know how to think about what might be appropriate or have an awareness of how someone could take in information. That can be off-putting, for sure, for sure. And I think that what I'm, my bigger point here is that, you know, sometimes in, yeah, and working with patients, we coach. them to maybe learn how to gate aspects of their full experience, right, in a way that will allow them to accomplish their goals. And for some people, we try to get them to be more vulnerable. And it's not necessarily like one is wrong or right. It's just like, is it working for them in their context and is it helping them move forward?

Yeah, Rachel, what do you think? Oh, 100%. I feel like I do a lot of that work with clients that have now found the joy in knowing, being known in their shadow parts in the therapy room and then want to go out in the world and share that many other places and then developing a little bit of a filtration system for assessing safety and assessing how that will be taken in different environment. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know if there's a more sort of nuanced, way of putting it with autism spectrum disorder, Eric. Any other thoughts on that before we move on?

Well, I think in that case, your experience sounds right that someone is with autism spectrum disorder might just go for the facts. There's not an emotional part of it. So they will give you the fact, yeah, you did this wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is right, this is wrong. So I think that can certainly come across. But I do think for the most part, it is part of the therapy to understand, okay, how might somebody take that? Or how might somebody understand you sharing that? Is that something that you should share? Is that something that you don't share?

And even kind of weighing that in therapy can be helpful for kids or people with autism spectrum disorder. I think it's like the theory of mind deficits that they have where they may not understand the mind of another to be able to predict accurately what the person may desire or want. right? And I think it's also, sometimes they have issues with understanding nonverbal cues. So they just may have difficulty reading them, such as facial expressions, body language, tone of voice. And I think that that sometimes leads them to have issues and how they behave in social situations.

And so I think because of those things, what I've seen is that maybe social veneer is not the right way to put it. Maybe it's difficulties with social communication, theory. of mind, but sometimes what it leads to, in my experience, is because of the misreads, they may behave more themselves in all situations because they're not varying who they are, because they're not reading the contexts in different ways. So, okay, not to belabor. My, my thoughts on that. I just want to get your feedback. Let's talk about this idea of kind of that culminating the panic, right? And how does she move out of the panic? I want to move a little bit into like what advice we would give as clinicians, what we do to help people in the midst of the anxiety.

Do you mean specifically in a panic attack situation? Let's start with what helped Riley. And then let's talk about other things that help anxiety as well. Yeah. In that scene, Rachel, I don't know if you had thoughts on this, but in that scene where she's coming out of the panic attack, that was a moment too when there was this integration of herself, which I don't think people always feel in the middle of a panic attack, but for her to calm down, it felt like, okay, I can be anxious, I can be good, I can feel bad about myself, I can feel good about myself, all that comes together

and that helps her. What is also happening, if you've ever heard of that idea of the 3-33 rule or treatment for panic attacks, is you observe three things, you touch three different things, You move three different body parts, and you see Riley actually hearing the skates on the ice, you see a picture of a skate.

She's looking and seeing that. She's touching the side rail in the penalty box. So she's actually doing this, probably unconsciously, because I don't think anybody's talked to her about this, but she's doing this, and it does bring her out. It's a grounding technique that helps her realize, okay, this is gonna bring, here's where I am, I'm sitting, I'm at hockey camp, my friends are here,

I haven't been good to them. So I think, David, there's that way, of coming out of a panic attack. And she's also doing some great relaxation breathing. I don't know who taught her, but she's inhaling through her nose. She's exhaling twice as long through her mouth. So she's doing things that do help calm panic.

Do you think, how much do you think that the friends played a role in that? And I know, it seems like they were simultaneously happening. You know, her friends come up to her and just like, hey, Riley, are you okay? And there's like a softness that greets her. I think that that attachment piece is critical because I think it, I mean, certainly the grounding techniques, the whole purpose of that is that her inner world is so hijacked and that she has to get into her outer world in order to ground herself. But I think the faces of her friends bring up our reminder of who she is and they bring up just yeah there's just a history that their

faces bring that I think are it's really important yeah I almost I think if I were to I and I love the film so no critique on the film but um it's almost like I would want another's mind interacting with her mind more where it's like the other mind is is influencing her mind So her mind, we know that our minds are not fully independent because of mere neurons, because of empathy, because of how connection works. And so I almost imagine the friend's softness and like love for her, like calming her flying amygdala,

you know, or like the incredible amounts of fear. That's- More co-regulation in that moment, right? Yeah, and I think if I were to illustrate that I might even have like the friends characters coming through, you know, and hugging her characters, you know, almost like this, you know, mirror neuron hug of sorts that I think goes on in real life. That was an interesting part of the movie when they did, you mentioned the micro-expressions in the car when the friends were not sure to share that they weren't going to be at the school.

There was almost an interaction there where you didn't quite see them relating together, but you saw what the one friend's mind was thinking, what the other friend's mind was thinking, what Riley's friend's mind was thinking. But Rachel, I think your point, the attachment is really important. If I remember correctly, I think she's starting to come out of the panic attack,

and that actually is a moment when she feels, oh yeah, these are my friends. And that's another thing that grounds her. And she's also in a very worked-up state, but she's able to be truthful. Her friend says, are you okay? And she says, yeah, and then she says, no, I'm not.

So I think there's a point when she can actually share part of who she is, be very truthful with her friends and reconnect. Makes me wonder if she had to connect to her own body and get grounded before she was able to receive from them. Yeah, I think so. And I actually think that's, I don't know about YouTube, but I think that's a good thing that she has to first do this a little bit for herself. And then she can connect to other people. Because if you're just looking to other people to fix and solve it, that doesn't actually help. or solve anything. So I think she was able to start to get grounded

and then that helps her more. Yeah, and I think with patients, of course, we want them to learn both, right? You know, often suicide plans that I have with clients will have like, okay, first you're gonna do this pleasurable activity and then you're gonna call a friend and then you're gonna get some exercise, go for a walk. You know, so it's like maybe a progression

of things that are positive that they could do in the midst of the panic or hold ice. Sometimes I'll have people hold ice in the midst of that panic. Sometimes in session, once I have a good connection with the client, I'll have them try to recreate the panic to some degree. And in a controlled setting, that's a behavioral sort of experience. Yeah, and I'm curious with you guys, like what jumps out is like things that you would, do if Riley was your patient, if she was talking about this panic attack later, like her, if you were to be trying to help her, what would you be, what would you be focusing on?

I don't know about you, Rachel. I would start with just asking her, tell me what this was like. This sounds horrible. Tell me everything that you can remember if you can and just have her go through it. And then what happened? And then what happened? And what was that like? I just want to know her experience so that in her telling me that experience she feels again that she wasn't alone with it that she's actually got somebody else who understands this so i would want her to tell me what it was that she experienced yeah that kind of the bearing witness too because she was so isolated inside of her head you know once anxiety flooded her she it really did disconnect her um so to kind of resume some of that attachment in the therapy room

of, okay, tell us what you were holding, what was in your body through all of this. Yeah, I think that's the absolute starting place, of course. You know, it's like we start with connection. We start, and just the way you say it, like it sounds awful, you know, like that empathy in your voice and your own facial expression there, Eric, I think. And the communication of like wanting to understand, wanting her not to be alone, right? So there's a, there is that kind of like attachment, you know, mutual, mutuality. And helping her not disavow part of the experience as well, right?

If she feels guilty about something, if she feels, you know, she pushed, I think, her friend over while she was trying to make a shot or maybe she was guilty that she was hogging the ball a lot, you know, and like making room for normalizing like those experiences as well. And that's the other part of this for me is to say, after we go through that, say, yeah, anxiety I often find is really tricky. It covers up other feelings you might have that are really hard to feel. And I wonder what else was in there. Some of those feelings might be, and I don't know if it was for you, but it might be anger, sadness, guilt, embarrassment. Was any of that happening or something else I'm missing? And then see if we can get to what was underneath of it, which is, as you just said, David, maybe she, felt guilty, she ran into grace and didn't have any remorse on the ice. Or maybe it was that she was so worried about being accepted and needed to score as anxiety kept telling her to do.

So I think really started it then, okay, so this is what happened. What were you feeling? What else was in there? And going from there to understand that more and say, okay, well, sounds like that was really hard to feel. And it came out in this way. I wonder if there's a way for it to come out differently, can you tell yourself, I'm really worried, I'm not going to be accepted. I'm really worried I'm not going to make the team. So actually start putting it into words that allow for expression of the feeling. So it doesn't have to build to this uncontrollable moment. I love that, Eric, this idea of how anxiety was masking some of the other underlying emotions and that I think maybe some movement into helping her find meaning in the suffering of what she went

through and what she experienced. And maybe that would be the place of, you know, I kind of lost sight of myself in some places in my friendships, you know, at the cost of trying to make this team and fit in. And, you know, maybe as a sadness that she had hurt her friend. And ultimately to get back to, this all started with the grief of losing her friends to another school. You know, I mean, it's, it's become so many other things, but that's kind of where it all, it all began. And I don't, I find sometimes kids don't have the language to respond to things. So just trying to give them that or how, how might you say that to your friends? Or when, when this group of friends said, oh, from Michigan, and you went along with it. I wonder if it would have been possible for you to say, you know,

actually, it's not Michigan, it's Minnesota. They both begin with M's, but very different places. So, you know, giving them some idea that, wait, you do have agency, you can say something, and how might you say it? I think about... I love... Yeah, go ahead, Rachel. Go ahead. Oh, I was just saying from Eric that I love that I'm learning and kind of getting a little bit of a window into your counseling with kids. Like, it just seems like helping them find their voice is so important.

And it's just been fun to hear about that because I think, oh, yeah, like, I forgot about that. They said that she was from Michigan and she's from Minnesota and kind of giving them somewhat of a script or a rehearsal of that. Seems like it would be so beneficial.

Thanks. I hope it is. I try because I think, oh, yeah, kids, especially these days where things are quick emojis and texts, they don't know necessarily how to have a conversation up front.

And that's another piece of the movie worth bringing up is that the phones were not part of this weekend. I think we would have seen a totally different side of Riley with that and a different side of a lot of kids. But when you're face-to-face with kids and you're not on a phone, how do you have hard

conversations? Like, actually, I'm not from Michigan. I haven't been there. Sounds cool, but I'm from Minnesota. That's where I learned to skate. So, you know, just transitioning it and learning how to have those words. Yeah, I was thinking about how the parents got a one-word answer on how the weekend went. You know, it was like this, like, epic, world-changing weekend for her, and her parents'

got one word good and the parents are both like what we get one word good seems about right i don't know about you guys but fine it's okay absolutely yes yeah so that's where i started counseling parents like you got to ask specific questions like on that first day when you were starting to skate what was that like or you know pick what happened to math today like you pick something specific because otherwise you're going to get well that's fine yeah that's good that's good That's good. Did you sit with, did you play with so-and-so today or so-and-so? Yeah.

Did you play soccer or handball? And just, you know, you can be wrong. They'll correct you. They like to correct, right? Yes, they will. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking, okay, so imagine that she went off with this new group of friends, right? and so now she's your patient years later. And she exiled this prior part of herself for a couple years, right?

It's like, how do you go about untangling, like, who she is now, right, based off of those new friendships versus what the part of her that, like, she may be left behind? Have we been working with her when she was that previous person? Do we know about that person? No. Okay. Let's say it's coming up slowly, you know? you know, she's like, yeah, you know, I used to love listening to that type of music,

but like now I don't anymore because this new group of friends. And I used to believe these things about the world or politics. And then I, like, adopted this other viewpoint because I had this new group. And now I'm kind of disenfranchised with, like, what do I believe? Or I'm confused. Yeah, I think maybe the first window in, would be looking at kind of the protector parts that had her exiling that part of her in the first place, you know, it's just to kind of give her some structure and meaning to how that

happened, how that change happened. And then it seems like what you're describing is that there is some longing for that to be integrated back in or something that was lost there that maybe needs to be grieved and then having an imagination for what it would look like to integrate that part back into their life today. I think that makes sense, Rachel. I like that. I would also ask them, what happened to that part of you? Where did it go?

And then I'd say, what do you think of when you think of that part? Is that a part of you you miss? Or is that part of you you say goodbye to on purpose? Or how did it leave you? So I'd want to know more about that process. And then I think in the movie, they addressed this very subtly with the character of nostalgia who comes out for maybe five seconds.

They're like, oh, no, no, no, it's too early for you to come out. But I think some kids do have a nostalgic feeling for those early days when things didn't feel so complicated or when they could just watch pouchy the character in the film on another show and really like that and be satisfied with that. So I think I want to know, was there a nostalgia for that part of you

that used to like listening to the boy bands, that used to like doing this, So I'd want to understand their feelings around that. And is that part of you that you miss? If so, is that part of you you want to bring back in any way? How would that, what would that look like? What did you think of, so embarrassment is one of the other characters, the new characters, right? And so embarrassment is the one that's kind of the super large bottles up all the emotions initially, sends them out into the abyss.

but then eventually kind of plays this rescuing role, right, for sadness. Sadness comes back through the tube embarrassment kind of helps sadness, right? Any thoughts on the embarrassment's role for Riley? Anything that you kind of resonated with? To me, it did. I think there are a couple of things. One is that embarrassment teaches us something sometimes. is when you're like, oh, I don't like that action I did.

There's something I don't like about it. Whereas shame is this, you're a bad person. There's something inside you. But you learn from embarrassment. You learn, okay, I need to make sure my pants are all the way up. Or I need to make sure that I don't do this or don't do that. And in a way, the embarrassment, maybe there's some embarrassment over what has happened in her mind and then comes to the rescue and teaches and allows for her to have these characters

in her mind brought back the joy, the anger, all of that stuff, that he can reunite that because you learn from embarrassment and embarrassment helps you do something different. So that's one way it resonated with me. Yeah, so there's some role for embarrassment. I think about embarrassment as well, kind of like sometimes embarrassment was stopping the emotions

from presenting themselves in their fullness. You know, it's like, it's not going to be cool to present all of these parts of yourself right away. And maybe there's, you know, a place for that in kind of the social, like, world that our adolescents are in. Rachel, what are you thinking? Well, I was thinking back to initially the physical, you know, the physical depiction of embarrassment. gave me a bit of a visceral response because it's kind of as big as embarrassment feels. And then I think embarrassment shows up

when Riley and her friends are goofing off at hockey and then everybody's, the whole team's asked to run laps. You know, so in some ways, embarrassment was helpful in kind of displaying that, you know, she can be considerate of others. You know, it's a reminder to be considerate of others. and it's a reminder of kind of the social cues around us. But, you know, I just, there's something about the way that embarrassment looked that reminded me of how embarrassment feels, you know, just this blushing sensation.

And being kind of bright pink reminded me almost of times that I've maybe worn something in my life that is out, you know, that makes me feel like it stands out. and I'm like, oh, I wore the wrong thing, you know. So, I don't know, I thought that Pixar's depiction of embarrassment was really, really potent. What do you guys think about the competitive sports? Because I know Rachel were kind of both in that world. I don't know, Eric, I guess you were trying to sign your kiddo up for swimming right before this and you weren't able to get in. Right. Is that right?

Yes, that is correct. So what are you thinking about in terms of competitive sports in particular? I think it's different than when I went through. I mean, my parents didn't put me in competitive sports at all. So maybe it was there and I just wasn't part of it. Rachel, is it different than when you grew up? Were you unaware of this world that we're experiencing with our kids? I think it's a lot more intense.

Yeah, it's a lot more intense. and just the pressure, particularly the way that, you know, parents seem to be finding identity in their maybe adolescence performance out on the court or out on the field. Just the pressures for not only scholarships, but sponsorships. I mean, it is. There's so much to it today that I think it just, it feels like a lot. Yeah, and I think it's very apropos to what we're talking about, not only because sports are in the film, but anxiety of parents. Even this morning, I couldn't get my daughter into the swim class.

I'm like, the far off anxiety of mind's like, oh, she'll never be that Olympic swimmer I wanted to be. But you know what? She doesn't want to be an Olympic swimmer. She doesn't want to compete. So I understand why, because the competitive side of things is too much for some kids. It's not fun. It becomes a chore.

it's more for parents sometimes, and kids can see that. And I think it can be really helpful and great for kids to be on a team. It can be helpful and great for them to find a way to express themselves and to learn how to use their bodies. I think it can be detrimental too. At what cost is this activity? Are they not able to do other things that they really want to do? Or are they over-scheduled and they're not sleeping?

Or are they having to be pulled out of school for these activities and are they missing something else? So again, balance. That's the whole theme of this movie. And I think that is true in life with competitive sports too. I mean, these kids are doing all kinds of crazy things. I think parents are worried their kids are not going to be Olympians. They're not going to get into college or not going to have a scholarship.

And, whoa, you know, let them have fun. Let them have fun. And let's see where they take it. Yeah, I almost started seeing from Riley, like this level of perfectionism with their competition, like waking up early, doing extra stuff. And I'm like all for like kids working hard towards a goal, right? But there's this some line where, especially when they're not eating enough, maybe when it's kind of like they're both have that like anorexia

plus the extreme exercise where it can really do some damage, right? And so it's kind of like maybe we're filtered in mental health the kids that are not doing well, that are like, for whatever reason, it's gotten pathological. But, yeah, I think it's such a hard balance because there are so many lessons that you can learn from competitive sports being a part of a team. But there's also, like, you know, aspects where I'm like, I'm watching fathers, like this one girl, nine years old, gets done with her basketball game. and then the father yells at the girl

and just lists 10, you know, 10 things that she did wrong. And I was like, I was like, whoa, slow down, man. And I was like defending her in front of, in front of her, you know? And I'm like, like, this is, you know, she's exactly where she needs to be. She has so much potential. This is, you know, it's not surprising that we are where we are.

but like, you know, here's the things that she's doing right. And it's like later I sat next to that dad and I'm trying to like deconstruct his like viewpoint on like how he needs to approach this without like being over the top. You know, so it kind of in a nuanced way of like, it really like grates at my soul when I see that because I'm like, that's going to get internalized.

And I've seen this a number of times with parents where I'm like I'm walking out to the driveway. When I was in kindergarten, I was walking out after a basketball game, and the dad is just listing out to his son, like, in this situation, you could have done this, and you could have done this. And it's like, oh, man, like that internal critical father is going to get internalized. And that, oh, is that what I'm seeing in my 30-year-old who wants nothing to do with sports? And then when I mentioned the value of exercise for depression, he's like,

he looks at me with that look of like, you're just being like my dad, you know, who tried to do this to me. So I'm like seeing this other side in child sports. And it's like I feel like I need to do more episodes on this to kind of like delineate how not to be a delusional parent, how not to be an overly critiquing parent, how to stay playful, how to not bring college level energy to, you know, your first grader. Nine-year-old basketball. Yeah. You know, I really, gosh, as you say about it, you know, I appreciate your word balance, Eric, because I think about, they give you these two really different pictures. I mean, Riley, it almost feels like she does not get one more goal in hockey.

It's, it's her, the end of her, you know, and you feel it in her body. It's very visceral. And then after the integration of self, she goes back out there. and it's joyful movement, it's play, you know, it's all of the things we want it to be. So we got both of those pictures. And in that case, too, it was about, I mean, I don't know your opinion, but I think for Riley, it felt more like making the team with social acceptance. We're then layering that with parental pressure.

I mean, she didn't even have parental pressure. I don't think really with hockey in the film, but you're going to layer that. I mean, it's, that is just too much. Yeah, there was a subtle line where the death, when Riley shared, she was invited to the hockey campus, it's like, hockey scholarship, here we go. I'm like, oh, yeah. Right, I forgot about that part. Yeah, that is there. And sure, that's nice for a parent to think, oh, college is taken care of. That's great. Like, there's so many reliefs in there. But I always think, let the kid be the guide. I see a number of professional athletes, and a lot of the athletes, they wanted to do this. It was their thing. You know, they

weren't pushed into it. So I think let the children be your guide as to what they want to do and how much they want to do. And my daughter at a young age said, a topic came up one time about, oh, this parent's going to coach this sport and their child's going to be on the team. And she goes, I would never want that. I need you to be my dad, not my coach. So I think there's something that really goes, it goes well for a kid to have a separation between parent and coach. And if parents coach, that's great. But also remember your parent. Remember that part too. Yeah, I think I always come back to like, okay, how do I keep it playful?

You know, how do I keep it? How do I keep this kind of playful? And if it's not playful, my kids are just done with it. Like the one to do something, they want to wrestle. But if daddy's bringing college level rowing intensity to something, they're done with it. They're just like. Yeah, then who's it for then? Yeah, I was just reading Gaboramaute, talk about the difference between kind of affirming, you know, what a child, like an accomplishment versus their effort, you know, and how much, how important that is, like, to affirm the effort.

Like, wow, you put so much, you put your heart, you left yourself out there. You had so much fun doing that. And yet, I think when you're in a competitive sport, it can be so difficult to do that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's good. Okay, I'm like, I'm thinking we got to bring this, wrap it up nice and a bow somehow. So, yeah, any final thoughts, anything that we didn't get to, Eric, I'll let you go first. Any kind of closing final thoughts or things you think? Well, I think that it's interesting to hear you say, you have to wrap this all up in a nice bow. I think that happens in the movie. It's nicely wrapped up, but it is a messy process being human. and coming to therapy and learning how to interact with the world in ways that serve you better. So I think this does take time.

And I think it's hard. It's not easy to feel anxiety and to deal with the things that do come up. So it's good to get help. It's good to realize where things are too much and to try to figure out how to balance those things. And that does enable Riley to have a nice, wrapped new sense of self by the end of the movie. Rachel, Rachel, any sort of reflections, thoughts that you wanted to make sure put out there?

Yeah, I think I'm just really reflecting on this for myself and speaking about how much, how helpful it was to have this visual depiction in art of how normal all of these emotions and transitions are. And it is just a good reminder to me as a therapist and a mother. that I have to be highly aware of my own internal dashboard and how activated I can get over certain emotions that my children feel and being aware of that it's so much easier in the counseling room for me to know, like, this is a safe place. All parts are welcome and that you need someone to see

and bear witness to all these parts of you. And yet that can be so difficult, whether it be in my own life or my parenting journey. So I just am thankful for the movie. I'm really grateful just for the normalization of these emotions and getting to have an actual depiction in my mind when these different emotions come up. That's anxiety. That's envy. That's Anwi. That's fear.

That's disgust. You know, all of these really normal emotions we feel as humans. I also think it's just to add one more thing. I think it's good for kids and adults alike, as you just said, Rachel, to see that there are characters who have these feelings, too. Not just the characters that are the feelings,

but there are characters that struggle with these things. We re-identify with characters that are on screen in whom we see parts of ourselves. So it's great to see these parts played out, literally, and figuratively. Yeah, I love how anxiety in the end has a special chair that she sits in and there's like a foot massager, I think. Am I right about that? And like some hot tea or something. The whole chair is a massage chair. Yeah. Cover tea.

Cover tea. And it's kind of like, yeah, there's this place for anxiety. There's this place for planning for thinking about the future for strategy. But then there's also this place to kind of, you know, put anxiety where anxiety belongs. And I think as professionals, we help people with that but I think also we need that for ourselves as well and I think that's where like community or other mental health professionals or supervision or our own therapy or kind of you know getting connection with friends and family

or just like quiet sometimes like nature and you know getting out and having some stillness and just being you know kind of in the beauty of the world so yeah thank you guys guys for coming. I appreciate both of you and the friendships that are developing and have developed. And yeah, we'll leave it there for today. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much, David. Yeah.