Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast - Reframing "Goodbye" as a Transition: Guidance from Dr. Tarr

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

How do we navigate therapy termination as a transition rather than a loss? In this episode, Dr. John Tarr explores the emotions, challenges, and growth opportunities that come with ending therapy. We discuss how termination triggers past attachment wounds, the psychological impact of separation, and how therapists can guide patients through this process. Learn how reframing 'goodbye' can lead to lasting transformation, self-reflection, and autonomy. Whether you're a therapist or someone in therapy, this episode provides deep insights into the complexities of closure, loss, and resilience in psychotherapy. Link to blog. Link to YouTube video.    

This episode honors Dr. John Tar, my late mentor whose wisdom on ending therapy reflects what I feel now as I lose him. I will share a lecture he gave on ending therapy, the graduation, transition, that goes on in therapy as someone leaves. Just like a patient's graduation, the therapist's voice stays active in their mind. Dr. Tar and I geographically may be a part, but his presence and my memories of him endure. I am personally therefore both listening to him talk about this, but also experiencing it to be true. In my tougher moments of life, I can funnel Dr. Tar's voice, advice, kindness. He was a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who trained under Fonnell. Alexander. He passed away June 12, 2020, at the age of 94 in Scotland, while globe-trotting

with the mind of a young man. After his death, I had a lovely lunch with his widow of 66 years, Beverly, who shared that at one point Dr. Tar wanted to be a radio host, which was news to me, as he refused to come on my podcast. I believe he was subjugating his earlier life desires to be exhibitionistic for his desires to be supportive of cultivating my aspirations and professional identity. He was still seeing clients and mentoring residents at the time of his death. He was a citizen of the world. Born in South Africa, boarding school in India, trips to Venice for opera and connecting with glassblowers. He had ongoing relationships with bookbinders in England, worldwide orchestral musicians,

and frequent visits to France and a recent one to China with his wife. He was my teacher from July 2011 to June 2014. Subsequently, we co-taught psychotherapy classes together from July 2014 to May, 2023. This was around two to five hours per week and a great highlight of my week, I might add. His mind was as sharp as ever when he passed. He was an obsessive, lifelong learner, thoughtful, encouraging, not prone to self-agratizement. Through his generativity, encouragement, and wisdom, he was, to me, a later life father figure. In this clip, he talks about how we internalize our mentors, loved ones, and therapists into us.

and can access them at a future time. I remember as a new resident at Loma Linda University, I had no exposure to psychotherapy. And Dr. Tarr really was that early exposure in his class on therapeutic alliance. I remember hearing his words and thinking to myself, what is he talking about? What is this? What are all these words?

His language is so complex. His words were a symphony of empathic immersion into the hardships we face, reducing shame, creating space for connection and opening of the mind. It is hard to describe something which we have no framework to understand,

and I hope over the course of listening to this podcast, you will have a framework. That was something that I wanted to pass on. I'm still trying to understand what it means to do deep psychotherapy, depth work, the type of psychotherapy, that stirs up every kind of transference and countertransference. Back then, I was more curious,

trying to understand, trying to translate things into something I could grasp. And so I hung on as every word, wrote copious notes, and you are now the beneficiary throughout this podcast of many of those lessons. Several months before his passing, he sent me an email detailing that he would leave me a prized book, Marcus Aurelius Meditations. He wrote, This is Yours on My Demise. There are colored inserts in addition to gilding, bound by Sangorski and Sutcliffe,

one of the most famous firm of binders in the world. They bound the jeweled Omen Krishman, commissioned by Widener, Harvard College of Library, is named for him, and unfortunately sunk in the text. I wrote back. It will be a treasure to remember you. I gave a book to a patient, wrote a note. It was our last visit before I left to Florida. They restarted with me later. Last week, she told me

every time she misses me, she reads a bit. I'm sure it will be the same for us. I can hear Dr. Tar's warmth, love, kindness in my mind, he will go with me. His last two words, two days before he passed, where I love and respect you. I wrote back to him in an email after our conversation. Dr. Tar, thank you for sharing your words. I am sorry. I was a bit speechless. My words are that I have had several father figures in my life and you are one of them. Your mentorship has allowed me to succeed in my career, but more your mentorship and fathership has given me a gift of love and support and enthusiasm

that was often, was not there from others. I have tears in my eyes. I know the way we see God is different, but I believe you have the fruit of the spirit, love being the main one. Please know that I'm praying for you and will hope for your full recovery and to see you in July. The world without him feels a bit more lonely. But even as I say that, he still exists inside me, inside anyone who was his patient student, anyone who allowed his empathic wisdom to permeate their being. In a large part, this podcast is a way to carry Dr. Tarr's

spirit, erudite wisdom, and prolific empathic teaching forward. Now, let's listen to Dr. Tar himself as he discusses endings, how they become transitions, and how his voice and the voice of our mentors truly stay with us. Goodbye is one of the most visceral things that anybody can have, and it's experienced idiosyncratically by people in a lot of different ways. There are different separation types. The idea one is mutually agreed on. That almost never happens.

It's almost always unilateral. Even in psychoanalysis where somebody's been coming for three or four years, three and four times a week, it's very seldom mutually concurred in. It's usually triggered by one person. The mutually concurred in is the easiest to handle. The one that's thrust on the patient by a rotation is the heart issue. They can understand somebody,

dying they can understand but not going away it's a huge feeling of abandonment which I which I which I want to want to talk about I don't like the word as I said termination has to do with pregnancy I use the word transition although sometimes I step back into it what is transitioning to another therapist or into therapy which is a continuation of the talking therapy that goes on inside the person what are the emotions that get stirred up in transitioning. 75% of patients have extreme sadness, mourning, feelings of loss. 50% have rage, anger, hostility. Fifty-four percent of patients have a recurrence of their old symptoms,

and about a third of patients develop new symptoms all around the issue of parting. It's a very, very potent kind of process. Why does it be? become so complicated for people. For one thing, esteem and abandonment issues almost inevitably get triggered. Do you know the Cole Porter lyric, every time we say goodbye, I die a little? Every time we say goodbye, I die a little. Non-consciously partings are portrayed as death, and finitude and death are the most potent emotions one can feel. But we experience much more that. The rest of the lyric is,

it was a very popular song at one point, in the age of the dinosaurs, perhaps, before you were born. Every time we say goodbye, I die a little. Every time we say goodbye, I wonder why a little, why the gods above me, who must be in the know, think so little of me, they allow you to go.

What is thinking so little of? That means if they thought more of me, if I had more esteem, this parting wouldn't be happening. So esteem in Cole Porter's lyrics gets portrayed in that way. It also alludes to something else that goes on non-consciously, which is that I ought to be loved forever. And that's why the God business gets triggered in there, too. The gods are involved in triggering separations, which they shouldn't be. What's the opposite of feeling I have no esteem.

I'm being rejected. I'm being abandoned, which almost all patients feel, as a matter of fact, is another lyric by Sobieski. How lucky am I to have had something that makes saying goodbye so hard? That's a different meaning attribution, isn't it? I've been so lucky to have something and it was so good that it makes saying goodbye so hard.

It's a different kind of kind of thing. It's very hard to do that. Some patients can, as a matter of fact, particularly if they can feel that what has gone on is permanent. And it is permanent, as a matter of fact, in many ways. Because many patients, if in the termination transition phase of therapy, learn about how the permanence of a voice inside them that they can carry with them the rest of their lives, which is the dialogue that has gone on between you, that that cannot be taken away. The insights cannot be taken away, that they can be applied to daily situations.

Okay. So what are we renounce? Does any of this sound like it's, have you separated from a patient? or head of separation, does any of us feel like it fit, it's fitting what I'm saying? The esteem component is very important because the difference between transitioning because it's desirable now, and I count for so little that I'm being rejected now and being abandoned now, and that's a very frequent meaning connotation that gets attacked it. Okay, so we're relinquishing.

when we transition the patient, we're giving up protection and guidance. Is that one of the things that's being given up? We're also giving up a relationship and planning for that and preparing for it and processing it. Okay. It stirs up giving up protection, but it stirs up abandonment threats which are profound. Or is one abandoning somebody? somebody or is one coming to the conclusion of a part effort, that effort being the enhancement

of life and the transformation into better living patterns that one is hoping for will take place in a continuing way and in an even more potent way after the therapy is stopped? I have conviction that development can continue without the therapist when the therapist is stopped. That makes it easier for me to transition with patients. And if the patients believe that, that makes it easier for them to. It takes them convincing sometimes to do that. In part, it's a renunciation. And having learned what in life has to be renounced and what cannot be avoided,

renouncing is one of the steps toward maturity. So learning about renunciation techniques can be focused on in the end of therapy. The other thing that can make it very potent toward the end is that when one knows that there's a specific date. Now, there's an incubation period between telling a person that therapy will stop at a particular time and from then on to the end of therapy. that's a little bit at odds with our conviction and every writer's conviction about it that if a resident is starting with a patient or anybody starting with a patient

where there is going to be a fixed outcome there isn't turning on the patient and the therapists should know that from day one in the first session this therapy is going to last until June so-and-so And that helps keep away from the process of becoming a permanent patient. It also helps facilitate intense focus on the here and now and urgency about change because there's a fixed known. And therapy in which a fixed day to set up in advance on numerous studies has been found to be more potent than one that's open-ended.

Okay. what are some of the opportunities as transitioning to independence begins that one can do? First of all, one comes to grips with, in one's own feelings, how much could I have done? Could I have done more? Could the patient have done more? Dealing with the conditionality of what's been achieved so far. And dealing with that explicitly with the patient. That is, what are some of the things that we wish we could have. handled better? What are some of the things we wish we could have talked about? What are some of the

feelings that haven't changed that you wish could be changed? And beginning with what has been accomplished and what has not been accomplished, what one is disappointed about can bring a huge amount of potency into therapy. So that the focus on, in what way have I been helpful to you, in what ways have we not been helpful in our working together? What are the time? The time of the time. when mistrust has intruded? What are the times when you felt I didn't understand what was going on? And that can be the most significant part of therapy going over the pluses and minuses of what has gone on.

How does one attempt to cope with this? First of all, I think the most important part is to try and stabilize self-esteem and a sense of self. This is part of life. This is not a personal, idios and gratitude. idiosyncratic rejection. You're not being abandoned. This is part of the thing. This is the part of the way works. Everything is finite. Nothing lives forever, unfortunately. And we are going to be dealing within the limits of what we have available with as much progress as we can. We're assuming that there's narcissistic

disequilibrium in the patient, that their self-worth is inevitably affected by that. And when it is, We try and help stabilize self-esteem and self-worth, and that can be even more potent than in the working through port of therapy or the introductory part of therapy. So a kind of reminiscing about experiences together is one component of what is very desirable. Another is a focusing on that, you know, we can be attached, even though we're geographically separated. You have memories of what we've talked about. They're inside you now.

You have a version of me inside you. You have feelings that are toward me. Whether we are together or not, those feelings continue. Now, if it's a kind of patient that has had an impact on me, I will say this does not stop my thinking about you. When I'm reminded of, and I'll pick up a conflict that the patient has had, when I'm reminded of a situation in which you have been rejected in the past and felt so terrible about it, and I encounter a rejecting situation.

That will probably trigger in me memories of what we've been talking about. So you will be in my mind, and I will be in your mind. And my voice and the things we've said together, and your voice and the things that you say to me are part of your sense of self now. And that can continue short of Alzheimer's indefinitely. And patients find that helpful, as a matter of fact, to put it in a kind of an explicit, being attached, though we're apart, that our attachment memories and our attachment representations, and your version of me and my version of you are now part of our inner lives, and that they're there forever. We go a little bit away from as we think together and as we've been working together, and as you and I, we're going to be. been doing this a little more into as you do this and as I do this and change our language of

togetherness and weness a little bit into the as you learn to do this and as I think about you and stop using the we quite as much in the collective and diminish diminish that. There's a debate about, because you don't face this, because very few patients that you see more than once a week, in psychotherapeutic circles elsewhere where there are options, there's a huge debate about whether you wind down, I'm seeing somebody three times a week, do I go to twice a week and once a week and taper off or go abruptly? I'm not for the tapering business, I'm for working as hard as possible in the number of sessions, but there are other points of view about that. Can one be enthusiastic genuinely about some aspect of the patient's future as we're

winding down the therapy. I found it possible to be enthusiastic with every patient about some aspect. I may have been disappointed in a diminished progress in one area, but if there's been progress in one area, and if I'm fairly confident that that can continue, then I can be enthusiastic about encouraging the patient to have a new mastered strength, and I think there's an emotional contagion that goes on between me

patients. And I think that the mineral neurons pick that up. And if I am genuinely pleased that something worthwhile is going to be permanently a part of a patient, I want them to know that, and I want them to think of. Another question that comes up, what about the succeeding visits with the patient? Does one leave with the understanding, this is over, this is forever, with certain patients you can call me in certain patients. I tend to tell patients that I will be thinking about them and I after a period of time when things are settled down, I sometimes would like to be able to call them and inquire what's going on. And I almost invariably would do that about a year later and inquire on somebody that's, particularly if somebody's not seeing a different therapist,

that complicates it a little more. In some instances, I've invited patients to come in and done a kind of post-mortem on the therapy because they're feeling more secure after having stopped. They'd like to venture things more. I probably told this illustration before, but one of my earliest patients was a very distressed physician, wonderful woman, volunteered in around the world, AIDS programs, got addicted to pain medication, a while a physician, went cold turkey off it, refused even when,

dental extractions to have any analgesics given because she was afraid she'd get addicted. She was bisexual. She had commitment problems. There were issues about adopting children, and it was a very long therapy. Many years after she stopped, she came in, somewhat reluctantly. And I asked her a number of things, but one was a number of things. of the things that really impressed me was that she said, you know, Dr. Torre, I knew that something was wrong and I knew that something would change, but I didn't have any conviction that anything

could permanently be changed in my life. And I lay there talking three or four times a week, and for the first year I was doing it, mainly because you seemed so convinced that it would work and that you seemed so enthusiastic about what you were doing, and I was skeptical about that. And it took about a year before I began to feel that I was involved with that. Now, that was a complete surprise to me. I had no idea that she'd had that long a period of tentativeness about seeing me. It also reinforced me a little bit that being together irrespective of what the person is feeling is going on, can in some instances be rather transmuting and transforming

because she did flourish. And the stages of parting resemble the stages of mourning. So they can be denial, anger, depression, and bargaining. And they can be incremental. One can try to deal with those incrementally and take them for judgment. What I want to say is, Because breaking up with the therapist or because leaving the therapist is a parting, it's going to be very significantly affected by the outcome of multiple past parting experiences, particularly if there were profound losses in early childhood, particularly if there was an abandonment by a spouse at some point. And what is useful about keeping that in mind is that that can get activated

in the parting dealings with parting from the therapist to revisit or sometimes to visit for the first time some of the most significant losses from the past. So you have potency then. In the present, there's a prescribed parting taking place to open up the enforced partings that a person's had to undergo in the past. And the quality of what goes on

is very largely determined by how past losses have been dealt with. The other side of that is that one can then maturate into developing new coping patterns for dealing with losses, that one hasn't been able to develop from the past. So I think that there can be strong potency in loss survival modulation techniques in the last days of therapy. I think a lot of countertransference get stirred up when we think about what we intended to do and hope to do with the patient. With some patients, there's a phrase that people use, what's the escape velocity? Some patients have been so aggravating that some therapists really want them to get out of there with a high escape velocity.

Unfortunately, that does happen. It happens to almost everybody. I've not had the busiest practice in the world, but I've had the most gratifying, but I've only picked people that I really wanted to live with for a long period of time. And I have at least three patients right now that I'm going to have to have a terrible personal struggle overcoming saying goodbye to because I just don't want them to leave. And do they want to? No, I don't want to, and I'm feeling partially, one of them I've been probably seen for 30 years, three times a week. And another one I've been seeing almost that long, and this new guy that I have that is so promiscuous. It's one of the most intelligent people I've ever had, and I just love.

getting involved in his world, which is mastery and control in some areas of life and absolute helplessness in others. Absolute helplessness. In an intellectual sense, he can argue with anybody in the world, and he's the premier person in his field,

and his book is the standard text in the field, but when it comes to emotions and connectedness, he's lost, he's absolutely lost. what's that he is different he what developmentally you think

would be behind that you know kind of one area gets strongly the other one doesn't develop there are

different lines of development Anna Freud wrote on lines of development there's a line of development of morality

there's a line of development autonomy the line of the super ego there's a line of intellectual mastery of the

things and he was gifted and he was gifted and brilliant and it worked, and he had a tyrannical grandfather he was sent to live with at a very early age, and he had a stepfather who was abusive,

and he had a narcissistic mother who was a famous politician, and he had a very complicated childhood, and he doesn't trust anyway. I'm the third or fourth therapist he's had. What he's telling me is that he's never been involved in any relationship in which he feels as secure. and how that came about, I'm not sure.

I'm not that different, much different with them than some of the other people have seen them and other things. But there is an idiosyncratic chemistry with certain patients, but you can't put words on that just flows. In answer to your question, there are independent lines of development and maturation which are not concurrent with each other and can be paralyzed in some areas

and have what we used to call fixations in development. There are other people who have gone beyond that, and then they will regress and go back to the point of fixation. There are some people who've never gone beyond it. It's just an actual fixation, so it's not a regression. Okay, so just in the last couple of minutes, earlier losses dominate. Whether termination occurs at favorable or difficult times in the person's life is a big factor. If somebody has just gotten promoted versus somebody hasn't gotten promoted,

stopping therapy is going to become a very different situation depending on that. Reactions to termination will be significantly influenced by the level of the patient's earlier capacity to achieve. mastery over the separation individuation crisis. And that's the bottom line. They're going to be influenced by the here and now, but also some significantly from the past. What are some of the coping strategies that get used? Avoiding emotions, idealizing the therapist or the patient,

a negative transference, pain and grief exaggerated. Some patient deny that it's really true. that it's really stopping. It's going to be going on forever. There's self-blame, if I'd been a better patient, if I'd been more interested, he would want to continue with me. Rage for what gets perceived as abandonment or object loss.

Devaluation of the therapist, very frequent. It's easier to part from somebody whom you're reducing in value. Devaluation of the self, return of the symptoms, which should ensure that the relationship continue. What are the main things one tries to do? Sustain esteem, respect what's positive in the patient

and that that can continue in the future. Talk about the fact that there is permanence in the patient in oneself. I've been altered by working with you. You've been altered by working with me. I will be thinking about you. you can think about what we said when stress arises. We can rehearse together how on your own you can handle the most significant losses. And I think prospective rehearsal in the final parts of transitioning a very much.

Structuring it as graduation and as a new beginning in a positive kind of way. Reinforcing over and over again that there's been an internalization of coping patterns, of insights, of emotional experiences, and that that internalization can be positive and can be permanent. In some instances, when the transference is going to be, the patients can be continuing, focusing on that there's an institutional transference, even though you're not seeing me coming to the same place,

the same offices, same institution, because there are institutional transferences that can help patient can get through this. I use explicit words at times. You know, my voice can stay active in you. Things I'm saying now, you can remember. You can quote them to yourself. You can have a dialogue with me, even though we're not talking for it.

So I'm saying that planning for it and preparing for it and processing it can be rather important.