Realfoodology - 2: Why We Should Care About Organic w/ Max Goldberg of Organic Insider

Episode Date: September 16, 2020

Today's subject is something that I consider to be the most important topic when it comes to food and our health: Organic vs Conventional food.There is a lot of confusion around the subject so I brought on my friend Max Goldberg for a candid conversation to clear things up and make it more digestible. Max has been called “an organic sensation” by The New York Times and named as “one of the nation’s leading organic food experts” by Shape Magazine. Max is the Founder & Editor of Organic Insider, a newsletter read by many of the most influential CEOs in the industry today. He also runs the Organic Food Industry group on LinkedIn, which counts more than 25,000 members from around the world. Max received his BA from Brown University and his MBA from the Columbia University Graduate School of Business. Show Notes/Links: https://rodaleinstitute.org/Organic Insider: https://organicinsider.com/Living Maxwell: https://livingmaxwell.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/livingmaxwell/Organic Food Industry Group on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/2697656/ Rodale Institute study of organic vs conventional farming https://rodaleinstitute.org/science/farming-systems-trial/

Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology podcast. Today's subject is something that I consider to be really the most important topic when it comes to food and our health. And I knew I needed to cover this first because it's really the foundation of a truly healthy diet. And there's so much confusion around the subject. So when I was deciding how I was going to do this episode, I knew that I really needed to bring on an expert to help us understand the ins and outs of it and why we should care. And I thought who better than my friend Max Goldberg. Max has been called an organic sensation by the New York Times and named as one of the nation's leading organic food experts by Shape Magazine. Do you want to hear the biggest discovery of our time for promoting

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returns. Welcome, Max. I'm so happy that you're here. Courtney, it's a it's a pleasure. And thanks for having me on. And it's you know, I'm thrilled that you want to get this message about organic out to everyone. So great to be here. Yeah, well, it's just really important. And I'm just so in awe of your passion and your knowledge around the subject. So I knew that I really had to bring you on to talk about organic food and just why we should care, you know? Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

And, you know, it is a passion,'s it's not just something I write about. This is how I live my life. And it's been like this since I've been eating close to 100 percent organic since 2001. So it's been you know, it's it's it's this is how I live. I know there's a lot of people in the industry, CEOs and whatnot, you know, who don't live this way. They sell organic food, but they don't. You go, you know, who don't live this way. They sell organic food, but they don't. You go, you know, you decide where you're going out to dinner and organic restaurants are not even a consideration. It's so wild to me. Yeah. For me, it's that that's the only consideration is where is there an organic restaurant? And when I travel, you know, I do research in advance,

where are the organic restaurants? Where's there a Whole Foods or another organic market nearby? I mean, so it drives everything. Absolutely. And I have to tell you this. I don't know that I've ever told you this before. So I found your website. Okay. So you might have to correct me because I don't remember the, I was actually last night as I was getting ready for this podcast, I was trying to think back of when I found it because it was a long time ago. You are pretty much the reason that I got into organic food. You helped me really understand the importance of it, which again is why I wanted to bring you on. And I've just been following your work forever. I think, I think it was like 2011. Was that right? Was your website up by then? Yeah, it was up by end of 09, beginning of 2010 is when I, when I started

writing about it. And I went to my first trade show in the fall of 2009. It was in Boston at the time. And I was living here. That's where I grew up in Boston. And I was back in Boston. And, you know, someone had said, there's a trade show going on right now, an organic food trade show. And I didn't even know that there was organic food trade shows. Otherwise, I would have gone to them years and years before then. But someone told me there was an organic food trade show going on at the time. So I got the, and I always tell this story to this woman on the tell, talk to you about, but I got the woman who the PR woman, who, who, who the woman who ran the press room. So I got her cell phone number and I called her up and I said, I said,

I told her who I was. I said, I'm going to, I I'm going to be writing about the organic food industry. I said, I don't have business cards. I don't have a website. I have nothing, but can I come? And she said, sure, come on in. And, and, you know, and I vividly remember that day. It just was like, this is the greatest day ever. And, uh, I was so excited. And this was before Instagram and I was on Twitter and Twitter was, you know, Facebook, very early days. So people weren't, you know, trying to begging their way into these shows. So she was like, sure, come on in. And that was really the start of, uh, you know, my, you know, writing about organic. That's incredible. So why don't you tell everyone a little bit about what you do? So I, I started this organic food blog called Living Max, which I still have, but really what's

driving, um, the, where I'm spending most of my time is a newsletter that I have called Organic Insider. And I started it almost four years ago because I also run the organic food industry group on LinkedIn. We have about 25,000 members from around the world. And so what I was doing many years ago is I would send out a weekly. LinkedIn allowed you to do this at the time. They would allow you to send out one email a week to the group. So I'd send out an email with links and a little bit of commentary, just not much at all. And I decided to take that off of LinkedIn.

I still have the group, but I took that off of LinkedIn and created a standalone product called Organic Insider. Because what I was realizing was that there were many, many CEOs in the industry that I would meet that didn't even know what glyphosate was. Glyphosate, the primary ingredient in Monsanto's Roundup. They didn't know what it was. And we're going to dive into that in a second. But yes, sorry, continue. Yeah. So they didn't know what it was. And they didn't know politically what was going on in Organic either, because they were just so busy running their business. And they didn't they didn't know politically what was going on in Organic either because they were just so busy running their business. It's not that they didn't want to know. They just this is they were just so busy.

And I said, if I could put together an email that if they read it to to read fully five to 10 minutes a week, they would have a really good idea of what's going on and the key issues, because I not only do I go to all the all the shows, but I, you know, when pre-COVID, I was going to all the National Organic Standards Board meetings. And these are the meetings that take place twice a year. And the National Organic Standards Board was established by Congress to make recommendations to the USDA about rules and ingredients and processes, things like that. So I would go to all these meetings and report on what was going on there. And so that's how Organic Insider got started. And it was in the beginning, it was a fully paid newsletter where you had to pay to get access. And now I've recently, I've made the transition where it's

open and free to everyone because everyone's got everyone because everyone has to get this information. And so it's a freemium model. So I have a lot of companies that are paying for it that want to promote this work and help support this work. And so that's really where I spend the bulk of my time, and I do consult with companies in the U.S. and around the world. So that's really what I'm doing. And really the politics, you know, so in Organic Insight, I'm writing about, you know, trends and business issues and standards and politics and all that. So it's really, to me, it's what is the most critical is the policy side of organic. And most people don't know what's going on. And they would be shocked to realize that there are people in Washington

that want to wipe organic off the map. And they're doing their best to weaken organic standards and dilute them. And we'll get into it today. But that's the truth. I mean, people just don't believe they don't believe it. They're like, well, how could that be? Organic has never been more popular and you can get it everywhere. And they don't know the truth about what is really taking place in Washington and how organic is just not being supported. And this is really why I wanted to bring you on, because I think so many people don't understand how political our food has really become,

especially when it comes down to just organic food. I also wanted to say that I'm a part of that newsletter, and it's fantastic. Everyone listening should definitely sign up. We'll put your website and everything in the show notes, and then they can figure out how to sign up for that newsletter, but I love it. Oh, thank you. It's such great information.

Thank you. Yeah. So I wanted to start with the basics. For anyone listening who really just doesn't even understand what the difference between organic and conventional food is, can we kind of dive into that and just, what's the difference between organic and conventional? Really, it's an agricultural production system that, you know, works in conjunction with nature. So the things that are not allowed in organic are GMOs, genetic engineering, and then no irradiated foods. And the other, you know, one of the other big ones is the super toxic pesticides like glyphosate, like atrazine, like chlorpyrifos. There are hundreds and hundreds of chemicals that

are allowed in conventional that are not allowed in organic. And so organic has clear rules and regulations, standards, enforcement, and that, you know, that natural, quote, natural food doesn't have. And it's just a much stricter form of, you know, production of agriculture than what's allowed in conventional. Yeah, I mean, that really is the main thing, because I hear this argument a lot from people, and they say, well, organic food still allows pesticides and herbicides. And while that is true, you brought up a great point. The organic standard really regulates what pesticides and herbicides, insecticides that they can actually use in the food. And I think that's such an important thing for people to understand. It doesn't mean that there's none at all, but why should we care about all these toxins being in our food? Like I want, I want someone like my dad to walk away from this episode today with a really

an understanding as to why my mom and I are always hammering into him the importance of organic food. You know, I guess the simple question is, do you care about cancer? Because they are spraying glyphosate. Let's talk about glyphosate because a lot of people may not be familiar with it. Glyphosate's the primary ingredient in Monsanto's Roundup. Approximately 250 million pounds of it are sprayed in the U.S. each year, 1.65 billion globally. It is known to the state of California to cause cancer. So they're spraying a cancer-causing chemical on our food supply. And the World Health Organization said it's a probable human carcinogen, which means it probably causes cancer. So that's the fundamental question. Why in the world would anyone want to eat a food that has been sprayed with a chemical

that causes cancer? That, I mean, how much, how much more simple does it get? So it's like. Exactly. Yeah. And I couldn't agree with you more. I was shocked. I found out years ago that, so they did tests of various popular food items and they tested for the glyphosate levels on them. And I will never forget, they found like huge traces of glyphosate on Cheerios. And I was like, I mean, honestly, it broke my heart hearing that because I just think of all of the moms feeding their children Cheerios, thinking that they're feeding them something healthy and they're getting this toxic dose of a carcinogenic pesticide, or I think it's an herbicide, right? But I mean, it's just, it's crazy to me. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, that's the big thing is to say, you know,

when people say, ah, it's not no big deal if I don't eat organic and it's, you know, it's, you know, these, these trace amounts, they really accumulate in your body. And so that's the fundamental question. And the other question, you know, I think a lot of people come to organic initially because they don't they don't they want to avoid the pesticides. They want to avoid all these chemicals and the GMOs. And they and so what happened to me is it's it's changes. It becomes, yes, you want to keep those out of your body but be but but the other reasons to eat organic is you want to you don't want those chemicals in the uh on the farms on the soil having farm workers who don't have their rights protected being exposed to this and then also

every time that you know you go out to eat at a non-organic restaurant and they're serving conventional food you are supporting these chemical companies. And I always say is I do not want my money going to support these companies. And that's why I get, you know, I'm kind of fanatical about not going to these restaurants because I don't want to support these chemical companies because the chemical companies own the GMOs. They own the chemicals that are sold to be sprayed on the GMOs. And we can talk, explain how that works.

I want to say one more thing because I'm so glad that you brought up this point about the farmers, the farm workers. I mean, it really comes down to like a civil rights issue at that point. You know, they don't have any rights and they're getting paid minimum wage and they're being exposed to these insanely toxic pesticides and herbicides. I mean, there's been some really famous litigations happening between various farmers who have gotten crazy cancer in their body because of being exposed to these toxic chemicals. And it's just, yeah, it's so above and beyond just what we're putting in our body. It's all encompassing in the body. It's all encompassing

in the soil. It's killing the ecosystem, spraying all these pesticides. But anyways, yeah. So let's get back to what you were going to start talking about. Yeah. So just so people can understand about genetically, when I talked about the chemical companies own the seeds, they own all the seed. So this is how the model works is they design, let's take genetically engineered corn. So they design a corn that can be sprayed with Roundup, yet it doesn't kill the actual plant. It kills all the weeds around the plant. So when they plant corn, you know, the plant grows and then they can fully spray the plant with Roundup, but they call it Roundup resistance. And so this, it kills all of the weeds around the plant,

but doesn't kill the round, doesn't kill the corn itself. And so it's genetically engineered to be resistant to Roundup and that's how it works. So the chemical companies sell the farmers, the seeds and they also sell them the chemicals and they get on this pesticide treadmill. It's really hard to get off. Well, yeah, exactly. And the Roundup Ready means that it's actually in the corn itself, right? The Roundup pesticide. Well, there's a few different types of uh of of of chemicals one where there's you know the the the insecticide is is within the corn and there's one that sprayed us that where the chemical sprayed on it okay yeah and this is also a great point because um

companies like monsanto i believe now they're bare because they were bought out um they essentially bully these farmers into continuing to use these chemicals. Or I've heard stories that they will plant their GMO conventional produce or whatever seeds next to an organic farm. And then whenever those seeds get blown onto an organic farm, that organic farm can no longer be organic because it's considered tainted. Well, GMO contamination is a massive issue and does not get talked about a lot. And that was one of the big things

that was being discussed when Obama was president with the USDA secretary at the, Tom Vilsack was USDA secretary at the time. And people in the organic industry was like, there was this issue of getting the organic and conventional people to sort of work together and figure it out and how, how we could coexist. And, and the organic people

is we cannot coexist. GMOs contaminate organic and there's no way to stop it. And, and that's that. And there's coexistence is absolutely not possible. So organic farms are getting contaminated all the time. God, yeah. Okay, so this takes me into another subject that I wanted to cover. So we talked about what the difference between organic and conventional is, but when we're specifically shopping for produce or meat or dairy, when you see organic on that, what does that mean in the sense of what are all the things what are all the things that are not allowed in there? And what is, what is that kind of label protecting you from? From, from, from organic dairy? Yep. Like I wanted to break it down. So if someone was

going to the grocery store and I wanted people to really understand why it's so important that we get our meat organic and our dairy organic and what that label really means when they're buying that. Yeah, it's a source of a lot of controversy right now. But when you're buying organic dairy, it's not only about the conditions and how the animals are being treated, but it's what they're being fed. So when you're buying conventional milk, the animals can be fed genetically engineered feed that has been sprayed with chemicals. And they are, you know, you see all the factory farms, you see all the, you know, movies and documentaries about how these animals are treated. Now, organic, they're supposed to be treated, you know, to be allowed to exhibit natural behavior and a minimum of 30 percent grazing time outside. And they are only allowed

to be fed organic feed. So that is really what organic, you know, the primary differences between the two. Unfortunately, what's happening now is organic. One of the one of the few big problems in organic is the allowance of organic, quote, factory farms, where there was a big investigation by the Washington Post, I believe it was in 2017, where they showed basically these massive organic factory farms where there was no way that these animals were getting adequate time outside. So that's the problem. So when you're buying organic dairy, there's a watchdog organization called the Cornucopia Institute. They have a scorecard that ranks all of these organic dairy brands.

So you can check that out. And also you want to try to buy from small organic local farmers. So, you know, you can either go visit or talk to them and they'll tell you, you know, how they're, they're, they're treating the animals. So that's one of the big problems that we have in organic is these organic factory farms or the USDA, you know, they'll get a complaint. They'll call up the, they'll call up the farm and say, Hey, we're going to come check you out. There've been complaints. We're coming to check you out. They give them advanced warning that they're coming. And, you know, I mean, that's a joke they should be doing.

Supposedly things are changing. So they say they should be doing unannounced inspections. But if people go online, Washington Post wrote about this in Aurora Organic Dairy in 2017. They did all these aerial shots. And this investigation, I think, took like something like 10 months. So it was a massive investigation. And nothing really ever came of it. No punishment really at all. This is really exciting. Organifi now has kid stuff. They just released two kid products. One is called Easy Greens and it's a refreshing green apple juice where kids will never know that it's packed with veggies. And the other one is called Protect. It's a delicious wild berry punch like the Kool-Aid that we used to have as a kid,

but without any sugar. This is really exciting. And if you've listened to the podcast for a while, you know that I'm a huge fan of Organifi and most specifically because every single product that they make is glyphosate residue free. So you know that you're going to be able to give these powders to your kids and know that they will be able to consume them safely without any glyphosate in it. So let's break down each one. The Easy Greens is a nourishing and delicious blend of superfoods and veggies that provides essential nutrients, probiotics, and digestive enzymes to bring balance to kids' growing bodies without fillers, additives, or junk. It helps to fill in nutritional gaps, aids in growth and development, supports digestive health, has a rich micronutrient

profile, and includes digestive enzymes. This would be a great way to sneak in greens for your little one without them actually knowing that it's healthy for them. And the second one, which is the wild berry punch similar to Kool-Aid, is called Protect, and it is to support your child's daily immune health with food-derived nutrients it is to support your child's daily immune health with food-derived nutrients that work to strengthen their body's first line of defense. I know just through girlfriends of mine that have children that when your kids are going to school, going to daycare, they're coming home sick a lot more often just because they're getting exposed to different kids and different viruses when they're out in the world playing with kids.

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Optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, better sleep, and more. Now this is a really cool feature too. It can actually track your cycle as well as the onset of menopause and adjust your recommendations to keep your metabolism healthy through hormonal shifts. So if you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use real foodology to get $100 off your lumen. That is l-u-m-e-n dot m-e and use real foodology at checkout for $100 off. Thank you so much to lumen for sponsoring this episode. Man, I mean, that's upsetting to hear because I generally, um, when you see that organic label,

you can assume like under the standards of the, or in order to have the I generally, um, when you see that organic label, you can assume like under the standards of the, or in order to have the organic seal, for example, with meat and dairy, it means that they were not treated with growth hormones, not fed antibiotics or any of the other pharmaceuticals that they generally give to, um, factory farm, conventional factory farmed, um, animals. And is that generally still considered something that we can trust or should we be going to Cornucopia's website to really figure out which ones are safest to buy? Yeah. Thanks for mentioning that. I forgot to mention the growth hormones and the antibiotics. You know, really what you want to be doing is you want to buy from dairy,

small local organic farmers. That's what you want to do. dairy small local organic farmers. That's what you want to do. Use the Cornucopia scorecard and buy from, that's what I would do, is if you're going to drink milk, buy from local organic farmers as much as you can. Other times it's not possible. And, you know, other brands, there are other well-known brands that do things the right way as well. You know, Organic Valley is another, you know, it's a big national brand. But I've visited some of their farms.

Oh, amazing. And we like them because I do like their stuff. Yeah, they do a very good job and they're buying from, you know, a lot of small family farmers and, you know, Amish farmers in Ohio and Pennsylvania and New York. And it's but you really happy to hear that. Yeah. You just want to do your homework. And unfortunately, you know, the USDA organic program, there are a lot of issues, and I'm not going to lie, there are. But it's the best system we have, and it's what I spend my time writing about and fighting to help protect. But people also want to be knowledgeable about, you know, when it comes to milk and meat,

you really want to be knowledgeable about what you're buying. Absolutely. And this brings up another point that I wanted to talk about. The fact that, yes, the USDA is what governs the organic label, but oftentimes if you just go to your local farmer's market, you can talk to the farmers themselves and ask them if they're using pesticides or how they're treating their animals, because oftentimes these smaller farmers just can't afford the seal because it's very, very expensive to get that organic label. So oftentimes these farmers are doing it already, but they just haven't paid for that. Do you have any tips on how to navigate that as well?

Well, I've been to farmers markets and I always ask them, well, why aren't you certified organic? And some of them have a philosophical issue. They feel like the government hasn't protected organic or that they've watered the standards down. They don't want to pay for it anymore. And I've had a lot of them who tell me, yeah, we use IPM, which is integrated pest management, and that they do spray. So I've had a lot of them tell me they do spray. So you really want to ask these questions. And if they tell you, no, we're not, but, uh, we are, you know, adhering, we're going beyond organic practices and ask them if they are using, you know, what kind of, are they using any, you know, what kind of chemicals they're using and just ask them these questions. So a lot of them will be, you know, I think most of them will be pretty honest. You might not, maybe some people won't be telling you the truth, but I think you get a pretty good answer from most of them.

And especially if they are really passionate about this, maybe why they're not organic and they'll tell you exactly what they're doing, you'll get a sense of how they are farming and what they're doing. Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. And this also brings up another thing that I wanted to touch on is the affordability of organic. And I was hoping that we could give people some tips on how to shop for organic on a budget. And if someone listening who just is really, really on a budget, the foods that we find are the most important to buy organic and kind of tips and tricks on how to really navigate this. And like we said, one would be farmer's markets. What are some other tips and tricks that you have for that? Farmer's markets, buying in bulk is one of them. Going to brands, websites, and signing up for their email list because a lot of times they will send out coupons,

places like Thrive Market. The other thing I would say is, you know, it's really coming down to how you want to spend your money. I have friends who are, you know, they're wealthy. They have no issue with money, and they complain to me about the prices of organic food, yet they'll go on a vacation that will cost tens and tens of thousands of dollars and won't think anything of it, and they'll complain about the price of organic grapes. So a lot of times it comes down to how you want to be spending. Priorities.

Yeah, your priorities. But one of the things I tell people if they're new to organic, I said if you can do breakfast, and that could be cereal, it could be oatmeal, it could be fruit, it could be eggs or whatever it might be. If you can, and I know a lot of people are working from home, but not everyone is, but if you can do an organic breakfast and you can commit to that, that's a third of your diet is organic. So then you'd be eating 33% organic of your diet right off the bat. Yeah. And then the other thing,

that's 33% less pesticides and toxins in your body. Exactly. So I think, I think it's farmer's markets, it's buying in bulk. It's maybe it's, it's prioritizing, you know, what you buy. And maybe, maybe if you cannot feed the family all organic, maybe the kids get fed organic and it's milk and meat. And, you know, some of the fruits like, uh, you know, the leafy greens and some of the fruits like apples and berries, do those organic and prioritize what you're buying organic. And also really be careful about what you are trying to avoid food waste. So if you can do that, that may help as well. Absolutely. I mean, I can say when I first started to get into all of this, actually like around the time when I found your website,

I was, I mean, I was the brokest I've ever been in my whole life. And I was barely, I mean, I was barely making ends meet at that point. Like calling my dad sometimes being like, God, please help me. And I had made organic such a priority because I was learning about all of these issues. And it just was so important to me that I would go to Trader Joe's a lot. Trader Joe's has organic produce. I know that there's Walmart now carries organic food. And I don't know how people feel about supporting Walmart. I'll let you decide on that. But there are a lot of places now that are offering organic food. I mean, Costco, Costco is one of the most, they sell some of the most organic food now. And it's all about, you know, just finding those deals and then hopping around. I would go to like three or

four different grocery stores. And I know, look, I know it's a mission, but if it helps you to save that money and it helps you budget that, eat out less, cook more meals at home, and then you'll have leftovers, eat those leftovers the next day. That really is what helped me. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely cooking home. And a lot of these big supermarkets have their own brands of organic. Yes. So they try to price those below the popular brand names.

So that's another one. And I think, you know, ultimately cooking, if you had to make rice and beans for dinner, that's not a lot of money. Yes. So if you get organic rice and organic beans that you're talking about, I don't know, a few dollars. Absolutely. So out of maybe a little bit of avocado and then you have a fully well-balanced meal. Right. So you can do it. It's just going to require effort and it's going to require some, some, maybe some more time. But I think, you know, I think it can be done. Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. Something that I know that you know a lot about that I also really wanted to touch on was the

farming methods of organic versus conventional, because this is an argument that I hear a lot that we are trying to feed the world and we could never produce the same yield of food with organic as we do with conventional. And I'm going to let you talk about this, but I do want to mention too, which I'm sure you know about this as well, but there was that Rodale Institute study. It was a 30-year study, and what they found between conventional and organic farming practices is that they yielded pretty much the same amount of produce afterwards. I think this is something so important that we need to touch on, and I'm sure you have a lot to say about that. I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, there have been many studies that show that over time that there are no meaningful differences between conventional, you know, GMOs and organic and where, where, where,

where GMOs may be more efficient is in the early years. So, uh, that, that, that's what I would say. And it's really been used as a propaganda tool to get politicians. It's very easy to sell politicians on, hey, we got to feed the we need GMOs. We got to feed the world. That's a really easy two second pitch to politicians. And well, it tugs on the public's emotions, too, you know, because it's like it makes you out to be an asshole. Like you don't want to feed the world. It's just like... Right. But the problem with right now is that we have plenty of food to feed the world right now.

It's a political issue. It's not a food supply issue. The reason that people are starving in Venezuela is not because there's not enough food in the world. It's because there are policies that are such that the people aren't getting food. So this nonsense, this propaganda that, well, we're going to be a 9 billion people by 2050, and we need GMOs to feed the world is complete propaganda. Do not buy into that. Absolutely. And not to mention, this is something that isn't even talked about that much, but with the GMO and conventional farming, we are spraying

the soil so hardcore with all of these incesticides and herbicides and pesticides that we're killing the ecosystem of that soil. And over time, we're just planting in dead soil and we're going to run out of soil to plant on eventually if we keep doing that, going down that path. Well, that's the big, one of the big reasons why the regenerative agriculture movement is really exploding right now because of the importance of soil. Not only right now, over decades, as we've seen, is the nutrient levels in food has slowly been declining. So not only is healthy soil important for nutrient-dense foods, the nutrition in food, but also healthy soil helps capture carbon from the environment for

global warming. And so there's this big movement right now called regenerative agriculture. There's a new add-on label in organic. It's called the Regenerative Organic Certified, started by Patagonia, Dr. Bronner's and Rodale, that incorporates soil health, animal welfare, and social welfare, worker fairness into the seal. So basically you have to have the USDA organic seal as the baseline. And then on top of that, you apply for this other certification, which really is raising the bar for what organic represents. So there are a handful of ROC certified products already on the market. Patagon Path has an instant oatmeal cereal. And we're going to start, and Dr. Bronner's also has a ROC certified coconut oil.

And you're going to start seeing more and more of these products in the market because consumers are going to, you know, consumers are going to start to demand a little bit more than organic. It's going to be organic plus something. It could be organic plus ROC or some humane animal certification. That's where I think things are really moving towards, you know, the USD organic seal moving forward is not going to be enough, I think, moving forward. Wow. I mean, that's incredible. I'm happy to hear. I love hearing that all of these companies are really just fighting for this right now and doing whatever they can to preserve the healthiness of our food. I mean, you touched on so many things. I'm trying to remember, like the nutrients in the

soil. It's such a great point. What people also don't understand is that that soil and that whole ecosystem and that the plants are growing in feeds that food. And that's where we get all the nutrients from, from the sun. And it's where we get all the vitamins and the minerals. And so as we're planting in this soil, that's, you know, been killed by all these pesticides and herbicides, we're not even getting all the nutrients, the vitamins, and the minerals anymore from our food. And that's a really important thing to understand about organic as well. And it's why we're fighting so hard for organic food, because it's healthier for us. Absolutely. And that leads me to one of the other big

controversies in organic, which I've been writing about a lot over the last few years is hydroponics. Hydroponics is growing from what I hear about 90% of the tomatoes grown at supermarkets throughout the country, you know, national supermarkets is grown hydroponically. Most, I would say most of the berries, the strawberries, blueberries are grown hydroponically. A lot of the leafy greens, the peppers, some of the cucumbers. And so when you look at the organic food, the language in the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990 ratified by Congress, it said farmers have to have a management plan that fosters soil fertility. Growing tomatoes in a bucket of water does not foster soil fertility, yet the USDA is allowing hydroponics in organic. And the other thing it's doing is that it's creating an

unlevel playing field for soil-based farmers, small and mid-sized family farmers, doing it the right way, growing these crops in the ground, they're supposed to compete against companies that are growing in buckets of water or containers that are much more efficient, don't have to deal with the complexity of growing in the soil. So farmers who are doing it the right way do not have to are forced to operate at a severe competitive and operating disadvantage. So there's that. And there's just no way that you can replicate the microbial ecosystem found in the soil in water. You just can't do it. Now, there may be some similarities with some of the key nutrients, but, you know, there's just no way that you're getting all of the nutrition

and grown hydroponically than you are with food grown in the soil. Absolutely. When organic was started, it wasn't started in the 70s, but in the 70s, it really started to take off then. And it was viewed as an alternative to the conventional agricultural production method. It was viewed as this is an alternative to what conventional is doing. Hydroponics is a step back towards what conventional is doing. This is not an alternative. It was meant to be an alternative system and hydroponics is not an alternative, at least in organic. No, and that's a great point. And it's also upsetting to hear that they are now taking the place of, you know, some of these soil-based farmers because we need those organic soil-based farmers because they're already in competition with the conventional

farmers. And now they're in competition with the hydroponics too. And it's concerning because this takes me back to, you know, at the end of the day, like we really vote with our dollars. So wherever we're spending our money and whether we know it or not, we're spending money in organic hydroponics. When we want to be supporting those small organic farmers that are doing it the right way,

they're doing the crop rotation and nurturing the soil and growing in soil instead of in, like you said, buckets of water. Yeah, exactly. So is there anything in the works to start labeling hydroponic versus soil or soil grown? Well, I wrote a few weeks ago, I wrote about this new standard. It's a brand new hydroponic standard that can be used in organic be used with the organic seal or without the organic seal, meaning conventional. It's called the Clean Hydroponic Produce Certification. It's brand new. It's not even out yet.

Natural Grocers, which is a national grocery chain, is piloting it. So it's very new. And then in this week's newsletter, the most recent one I did, I went to six national and regional supermarkets in the Boston area, Whole Foods and Target and Walmart and Stop and Shop and Wegmans. So what I did was I went there and Costco and I said, okay, I want to buy three categories, leafy greens, berries, and tomatoes. I said, I want to know everything here that's organic in those three categories. So nothing was listed as grown in the soil or grown hydroponically. So then I went to all the websites and I wrote about that. The big takeaway is it's incredibly difficult, if not

impossible, to figure out what's grown in the soil and what is grown hydroponically. So if you want to, and this is why we as consumers must demand that the farms and the brands and retailers start disclosing this information, even if the USDA is not requiring it. This has to be a bottoms-up approach to pressure the industry to disclose this information. Now, there is a top-down approach taking place right now. The Center for Food Safety has sued the USDA over the allowance of hydroponics and organic. And also, there are two add-on labels, one of which I just mentioned, which is called Regenerative Organic Certified, and the other one is called the Real Organic Project. Both of those add-on labels prohibit the use of hydroponics. Essentially, they said, you know, they said, we're not allowing it. We think this is a, was never meant to be an organic and this is,

it shouldn't be there. So just to clarify, what is an add-on label? As I said, is you have to have the USDA organic seal as a baseline, and then you can put one of these labels on top of it. If you qualify, you know, you have to apply for it and whatnot. And do the companies have to pay for that qualification, or is it free? No, the companies have to pay for it. And right now, the Real Organic Project is, I don't think they're certifying any brands yet. It's just farms right now. But they've tried to make it such with the Real Organic Project that it's not a prohibitive

expense at all. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad that you're speaking up about this because we need people on the front lines fighting for it. So thank you so much for just being such an advocate for this. It's so important. Oh, thank you. And, you know, what people really need to do is start, you know, particularly with this hydroponics issue is, you know, contact all these brands that you're buying from. Are you, you know, I want to know this, this, like Driscoll's is a really good example. They're the dominant organic berry producer. They also are the dominant conventional berry producer. When you go on their website, it says we produce our organic products from in-ground production in the soil and also via container growing system. So if you say, okay, you acknowledge that you do partially in the ground and partially via container growing system.

How am I supposed to know the organic strawberries that I bought from you? Which is which? You can't. You don't know. You have no idea. So we as consumers really need to start pressuring, as I said, the farmers, the brands, the retailers to disclose this information. Absolutely. And you know what I was just thinking about as I was listening to this? It just reminds me again how important it is to just go to your local farmer's market and support these small farmers that are doing it the right way. Mm-hmm. You know?

Yep, absolutely. I want to, so someone that's listening right now, and maybe this is a lot for them, and they're a little bit confused, and they're like, okay, well, now what do I do when I go to the grocery store? And I'm reading these labels, and I feel like for the most part, when it comes to like produce and meat and dairy, like we kind of got that down. It's like, all right, I'm going to look for the organic on that. But when it comes to the boxed foods, which I tell people all the time, I'm like, we want to limit the processed food as much as possible.

But if we are buying these packaged foods and you look at the ingredient list, this is what I say all the time, look at the ingredient list. If every ingredient on that list is food, like if you could technically, while you're standing in that grocery store, buy all of those ingredients that were on that list and you could make it at home if you wanted to, then I say, it's okay. You can buy that product because generally speaking, it's going to be like four or five ingredients. It's going to be like, you know, organic cassava flour and sea salt or whatever it is. So when we have that down and then we're looking at the label and it says organic on the front of it, that label doesn't mean that everything necessarily is organic in that box, right, in the food?

Well, if it's got this USDA organic seal, it means a minimum of 95% is organic. Okay, that's what I wanted people to understand. Yeah, so just look for the organic seal, it means a minimum of 95% is organic. So that's what I wanted people to understand. Yeah. So just look for the organic seal. And sometimes there are ingredients that comprise less than 5% that are not commercially available as organic or they're, you know, so whatever it might be. So just look for the USDA organic seal. And, you know, one question that I get a lot is, okay, well, there's this box of, you know, organic, let's say, organic candy. Okay, it's organic, but there's a ton of sugar. And so is this healthy just because it's organic? And I think what you want to say is, not just because it's organic doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy.

But if you're saying, I'm going to buy a box of candy or I'm going to buy a box of organic candy, you want to be buying the organic one. Absolutely. Because you may be getting the sugar, but at least you're not getting sugar with a side of glyphosate. Sugar or from GMO sugar beets. Oh, yes. That's a big one too. Oh, yeah. Actually, that reminds me.

Okay, this is something I wanted to touch on. Non-GMO project verified versus organic. So if someone's looking at a label and it says USDA organic, that means that the food in that or whatever that food is, it cannot contain genetically modified ingredients. And that's also the same for the non-GMO project, right? Yes. And it's a good question. So why is there a non-GMO project? Largely it's because there are some high risk ingredients that the USDA does not do field testing on. So things like canola, things like soy, things like, you know, those potatoes now is a high risk ingredient as

deemed. As being GMO? Is that what you mean? Well, no, it's a high risk genetically engineered product now. That's what the non-GMO project has come out and said, because there are now potatoes that have been genetically engineered to not turn brown. And now same thing with apples. There are apples that have been genetically engineered. When you cut it open, it doesn't turn brown. So that, so organic and same organic by definition is not GMOs are not allowed in organic. So what the non-GMO project does is they'll go out and they will supposedly will field test these high risk ingredients for these products. So it's an added level of protection, particularly for these high risk products. Now, where it does get confusing for consumers is when you go and you see seaweed, you see a box of, say, dried seaweed and it has

the the non it says non GMO on it. I mean, that's a farce because there is no there is no GMO seaweed. There's no genetically engineered seaweed in the world. but a lot of people may not know it um but you know they they're they're still using the the some of these companies are using the seal anyways on an on an organic product that or on an organic product where there is no GE um version of it version of it in the marketplace. So it gets confusing, but organic by definition is non-GMO. The non-GMO project just goes deeper and provides more assurance. Great. Yeah. And actually, this is something that I wanted to touch on too, is GMOs. So because I found that there's been a lot of confusion around genetically modified food as well. And I think what a lot of people don't understand, well, one is there's a difference between

GMO and hybridized foods. And this is how I understand it. So correct me if I'm wrong, but with the genetically modified food, they're actually taking genes from other animals, for example. I read that they took genes from jellyfish and they were putting it in, I think it was apples. And then versus hybridized, you're just taking the seeds of two plants and putting them together. And this is why it's just the whole, a different plant, or animal in terms of genetically engineered salmon, for example.

So, yes, that's what it is. And the, yes, so they're basically, they're using modern technology, modern biotechnology to accomplish this. And there's something called the Cartagena Protocol, which was ratified by over 150 countries from around the world that agreed that using modern biotechnology to do this is genetic engineering. Well, and the reason why this is so concerning is that we don't really know how those genes together are going to react in the human body. So that to me is what scares me about GMOs. And then also the fact of what we touched on earlier is that these genetically modified foods, some of them, for example, corn, sometimes have the fertilizer or the pesticides in the seed of the food. So there's no way around the pesticides. It is grown in that food. Yep. The BT resistant, uh, um, corn. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the corn. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course with the GMO farming, there's more

pesticides used in general, which is why this is why I have been such a proponent, um, for against GMOs and for organic, because I just, to me, it's, I just think there's not enough, we don't have enough science yet around like how it's affecting our bodies. Well, it's, you know, we're a one big human experiment with all these genetically engineered crops and that's, that's really, that's what's taking place right now. So, you know, if you want to eat GMOs and be a human and be part of the experiment, you know, knock yourself out. Absolutely. Yeah. I will not be a part of that experiment. Someone listening who really wants to become just more involved in general. What are little things essentially that we can do to really support the organic food movement more? Because like I said earlier, voting with your dollars and where you put your money

for one is a way to show these companies that we demand organic and we want more of it. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's, I think it has to be on, on a few levels. Simply buying organic is not going to be enough. People have to get involved politically. So there, there's a feeling, oh, I'm going to buy organic at Whole Foods. I've sort of done my job. And it's like, no, because everything is about the politics. And our politicians in Washington, D.C. have to be hearing from us on these critical issues on supporting organic. So you've got to contact your politicians. We have to put pressure on companies, you know, like this hydroponics issue is a perfect example of it where people absolutely need to be involved. There are many

really good organic-related organizations. I mean, I don't want to be so self-promoting here, but go read Organic Insider. There's three and a half years of archives of what's going on in the industry. And there's a reason that I wanted to open up the archives, is I wanted people to have this information, is to go get this information, go get on the email list of a lot of the really good nonprofits in the industry, whether it's Center for Food Safety, Organic Eye, Organic Consumers Association, Rodale Institute.

I'm sure I'm missing some of them, but there's... If there's more too, you can email me and we'll add it in the show notes. Okay. If you want to add some. And there's just a lot of really good nonprofits out there. And I would just say, educate yourself and get involved. And just thinking that buying organic at the supermarket is enough is not enough. So it's really understanding what's going on, getting involved and, and, and, you know, sharing this information online and, and, and with your network and getting people to understand that, um, our food system is really, you know, hanging in the balance here so it's we've really got to support uh support organic and absolutely and there was a pilot there was a usda um a person who a very senior official who

works at the usda who and this is all on organic insider if you go and look back back last year there was a very senior usda official who got in front of a congressional subcommittee and said yeah we we think it's appropriate to explore the possibility of of allowing gene editing in organic so this is a usda official saying this is on video i've got the video on my site and this is what he's saying. So this is what's going on in Washington. We created organics so there was no gene editing, genetic engineering in organic. So this is what's happening. Can you actually touch on why has this become so political? I mean, I would assume, you know, it's money and there's a lot of money to be made, but I think this is an

important component for people to understand why this is happening. Why are we fighting so hard for organic? We're fighting so hard for organic because we are a real threat to the conventional food system, namely the chemical companies. So the chemical companies make a lot of money and they liked how things were and with very little pushback. And all of a sudden, organic is a threat because organic consumers are waking up to or realizing that food is medicine and that what they put into their body matters, particularly now with COVID. They're seeing that. So we are a real threat to the Monsantos of the world. And this whole fight over the labeling of GMOs has been a complete farce.

And what they've come up with, allowing QR codes and things like that. And they've, you know, they're very powerful and influential in Washington. And so they do not, organic is an existential threat to them. So of course they're going to spend millions and millions of dollars lobbying the politicians to get policy that they want. So. Well, you know, it's interesting. It mirrors what happened with the tobacco industry. You know, we, at first we didn't know how bad they were for us. Similarly with the food and the pesticides in the beginning, you know, I'm just going to hope that we didn't know how bad they were in the beginning. And then as all of this stuff is starting to come out, the science is starting to come

out and, you know, just like tobacco industry, they fought so hard to be able to allow their cigarettes to still, you know, not have all the regulations. And they didn't want people to think that they were unhealthy, even though we knew and the science was out there. And there was a lot of manipulation. And the same thing is happening right now with our food. We've already seen it. You know, it's a classic history repeats itself situation. Totally, totally. And yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is people just need to take full responsibility for their health. Absolutely. thing is people just need to take full responsibility for their health.

Absolutely. That's what they need to do. And that includes, you know, what kind of food that they're putting into their bodies. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Wow. Well, this conversation has been absolutely amazing. I touched on everything that I wanted to talk about. Is there anything else that you feel like we didn't discuss that you wanted to?

I think that's it. I think the biggest thing is, you know, as I've mentioned it already, is just for people to be educated and involved. And that's the biggest thing is that we need to make sure that this food system is here for the long haul and that it is in a strong shape and in the strongest shape possible. And because it's so important, as I said, I mean, food is medicine. Absolutely. I mean, it's the foundation of our health. So, yeah, so that's it, is just get involved. Amazing. Thank you so much, Max.

Tell everyone where they can find you, your website, Instagram, whatever you want to promote, and then we'll put it in the show notes as well. Yeah, it's just organicinsider.com, and feel free to join the organic food industry group on LinkedIn that I run. And Instagram right now is atlivingmaxwell is the main account. There's also an organic insider, but atlivingmaxwell is the main one right now. And yeah, so that's where people can find me. And please sign up for my newsletter, organicinsider.com. And that's pretty much it. And, uh, I really appreciate you having me on, giving me the chance to, to talk about these really important things in organic. And, uh,

you know, the reality is we need all of us. It's not just, it's not just a few people. We need everyone involved because we all eat. And it's just so important, as you know, and I really appreciate you giving me the forum to talk about these critical issues. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more. So well said. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this conversation. Oh, likewise. Thanks so much. Thanks, Max. using. My theme music is by the singer Georgie. Please subscribe, rate, and comment on either Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any major podcast platform. If you want to find me on IG, my handle is realfoodology. See you guys next week. Thank you.